Non-Artists bullying them is WILD! They don’t understand how long art takes to make, let alone TRADITIONAL art and cost of materials, yet they still feel the need to be voicing their opinions 💀💀
The Internet & Social Media are fickle things, just as they allow one access to almost any information they can dream of should they know where/how to look & sometimes have money to spend, but it is a place where people can spew forth uninformed bad takes & spread hate. Also, I imagine that the rise of Automated Plagiarism, aka Generative AI, has definitely emboldened some to make unreasonable requests of actual humans because the computer can plagiarise something close to the requestors desired result for what is practically a rounding error compared to what a person should be paid for the work, though this is mainly true for large projects like the tarot deck request discussed in the video
like this whole thing, it reminds me of how nonartists are so easy to criticize the art itself without a single creative bone in their body. (Like how people might value their art at different prices for commissions) And I know art is subjective and opinion based but if you're belittling someone who clearly has unique, attractive, meaningful work, and values their work highly... You really have no space to talk. ESPECIALLY if you don't understand living situations and making a living off of this. Not even the average job can pay right.
80 illustrations is crazy, I don’t think I could do 80 full artworks in one year (that’s nearly one finished fully rendered artwork per 2 days, which is insane because it takes multiple days to finish an single artwork usually) Plus 50$ is what most people put as one of their lowest price options on commissions …
I often only do one art a week. Theres 52 weeks in a year. There’s 80 cards and each card may take even longer than that. Getting the material, painting, drying, making changes, starting all over when there’s mistakes or changes. There’s no way I could devote so much time into getting the detailed work done faster for only 4k. That’s supposed to last me a year? Crazy.
Not to mention that u might not get 1 illustration done in those 2days coz ur waiting for feedback-tweaks etc. like are these ppl counting weekends as working days ?
80 illustrations can be doable... if the artstyle is very simplified. But still for that price WITH all the rights to the images?!?! Maybe if they're stickmen... And 1 year is pretty fast for such a low priority|high quantity commission, price-wise.
Omg I forgot they wanted COPYRIGHT of the art 80 CUSTOM ILLUSTRATIONS FOR 4,000 HELL NAHHH . My fellow artists take this as a sign to up your prices please!
@@daphenomenalz4100it is! They are literally trying to SCAM the artist to get the cheapest they may and with copyright they could resell with NO issues since its owned by them FULLY now and may price HOWEVER they want
So the internet is using the fact that someone needs to pay rent in order to pressure them to take extremely low paying work.... that sounds like extortion/abuse. Sending love to the artist ❤
One card for 50$? I get how some people think that's a lot, but it takes me about 4 hours and tons of motivation to make a single rendered drawing so I'm completely worn out. Artists do not spend years, decades, making work for fun just to be shit on completely lmao. and then when they try to gain respect online, they are mistreated or they are new to taking commissions, and they don't set their prices high for commissions. (i don't know much about commissions but if you set prices low your customers are usually horrible because they think your art is really worth a small amount.)
Exactly! For me I can take upwards of a week for some illustrations (generally though I take 2days to finish a piece at most) , not to mention the severe burnout that would definitely occur if you had to make that much art…. It’s so sad how artists get treated and ai imagery just making it worse :I
What’s even crazier even when the artist is selling commissions for a low amount let’s say 10 bucks the commissioners will try to get those artists to go even lower or guilt trip and say their art sucks anyway just to make them feel even worse and give their art away for free. Just more reasons to charge a lot and let the haters hate and maybe recommend them fiverr and tell them they get what they pay for.
@@jamille101 Exactly. there's a person out there selling art that will suit at least that one persons specific standards. No need to guilt trip them into breaking their own rules
This is one of the reasons i did not take commissions yet: i don't know how to price myself to avoid exploitation and at the same time to hear "your prices are too high" or being ask for refund if the customer don't like the piece
Also tarot cards have a lot of meaning that you need to convey into the card in order for the reader to get a proper reading so it wouldn't be only the time spent drawing but also the time spent researching to get that paint done...
The fact that there are people who never did art or has no ideal that the offer is pretty much a low rate or pay are giving her crap for not taking the deal despite not having a clue how long it would take needs to stop being delusional because thats easier said than done.
$50 is basically what the deck alone could cost for a buyer, meaning they would only need to sell 80 decks to break even in the art payout which is very reasonable to achieve in terms of selling. But that's not how you pay artists. That's not how you acquire commercial rights and make it enticing for an artist to do custom work for every card. This isn't rights retained, this isn't premade art being used for the cards. This is custom work, which is expected to sell far higher than 80 units and so net far more profit for the seller. They could offer to do multiple artists to adjust cost, or even a single piece that fits the budget. There's options to consider But $50 an image is what you pay for new artists on Twitter who draw OCs for gas money (hi, I'm one of those), not a freelance illustrator who takes multiple hours and days to complete work that they won't keep the rights to in order to cover cost with their own prints and merch on the side Ffs
Seeing kellys style and how detailed it is its understandable why they wouldn't want to take this deal the amount of time, effort and skill in their art takes years to achieve even decades so 50 a card is not as reasonable as people think
In my school, I had to make an entire illustration book with complex/full illustrations as the finals. 25 fully collored illustrations, started in November and due for June. It was barely possible, in fact I ended up missing 1-2 illustrations and had to cut a lot of details just to make it by june (and include printing and receiving the book). Let me tell you that it was almost impossible, and many of my classmates are missing illustrations. 80 illustrations a year is not feasible unless you're REALLY fast, don't do anything besides that, have a lot of knowledge about tarot and work with a fast medium on simpler deck illustrations (knowing a card has TWO sides as well). And even with that, you're still very underpaid. A complete complex illustration is at the very bare minimum over 100$
I did a wacky artbook and one I was ashamed of in a single damn month. It was not only not fun, it was a huge blow to my self esteem. At maximum speed I can only draw one image per 3 days, and it's dogwater. Colored in rainforest piss and how people perceive Mexico in films filter. And I got a severe flu and dehydration for the week after. The lesson is do NOT make an artbook in a month alone. Simply put, just don't. No buts or ifs. Even if given extra 30 days, I still found troubles forcing my friends to meet deadlines they set themselves. Ask a lot of artists, they always say "make your product ONE YEAR IN ADVANCE." It's not laziness, it's just experience for quality.
It's worth mentioning that Kelly McKernan is one of the main plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit against Stability AI, Midjourney, DeviantArt, Runwaway AI etc. and has drawn a large and consistent amount of hate from AIbros. Some of the bigger responses to her tweets were from AIbros that devalue artists, such as 8:32 is an AIbro account.
Ppl making fun of them for not being able to make rent is legitimately so despicable. Evil people. Just because someone is poor (or even struggling for a little bit in general) doesn't mean they deserve exploitation?? It also doesn't mean they deserve to lose their home. Wtf is wrong with ppl?
Your right tarot is a VERY deep thing for people and you need to understand the symbolism for the cards to read correctly/carry the meaning. This may require an artist to research the background of the cards if they don't already have that background. Also i know the artist didn't specify but was it just the art or did they want the cards completely laid out? So then they would have to design a back of the car, the text/front of the card where the art is, AND make 75 unique drawings and make that all cohesive because if its not cohesive people will not enjoy the deck. Edit: Also this assuming this is a standard tarot deck! Some people make their own tarot/oracle cards so this could be even harder depending on what the actual details of the project are.
Some people just want pretty illustrations, but it's like making a picture book: You can't just Google how to write a short story and spit one out, if you don't want to put in the time and effort to make a proper story, memorable characters, memorable designs, and so on, you're gonna end up with something that's pretty but functionally an art book. Similarly, for tarot, you can't just look at a list of symbolism keywords and be able to put together a good deck, because things like weapons, adornments, actions depicted, setting, colours used, and so on are all used in tarot to make the cards functional tools... I have no issues with people just making random tarot inspired decks, but they're functionally bad /tarot/ decks. I've sat and started working on so many decks as a tarot reader and artist and my god, the amount of hours you have to spend studying what tarot is let alone sitting and planning out what themes, symbolism, etc you're going to use and divide up between cards, let alone the thumbnailing of the card imagery, let alone doing and finishing the cards - let alone all the extra stuff of making sure the deck is cohesive and usable and the box design and typing up the booklet (which could be done by someone who isn't the artist.... Except the artist is the only one who knows what symbolism they put in the cards so they at least have to type up rough notes) yeah. You could pay me like 150 a card and I'd maybe begin to consider it - /because/ I have a lot of the necessary research and practice already partly done
To be clear that's agreeing with you, just providing another viewpoint to back it up. Also, the 150 thing is not a basis I recommend. If you want 70+ full illustrations you better be willing to pay the price of 70+ full illustrations. If you want 70+ full TAROT illustrations... my god you better be a big studio with heavy wallets lmfao
There is a reason, why the sentiment goes "artists are poor" - why yes, when they dont get paid and are expected to sell themselves below their worth by these dips**ts -.- Glad to see there are some artists that know their worth and dont let themselves being goated by bad offers. Hope she's doing well.
I am kind of sad that not much has changed in the area of commission prices like i used to sell commissions for fun as a hobby really, im not like an amazing artist or anything, i was a student trying to get a bit of money in my spare time doing my hobby and i remember how even then there was this whole discussion between people who said 25€ for an artwork that took you like 1 full day if not more is too little, and those who said "well i aint gonna pay 50€ if i can get it for 25€ elsewhere" so like this was 10 years ago if not more and its so saddening to see that art isnt appreciated still she is absolutely right on her pricing! like i wouldnt take a job either that pays me under minimum wage even if i desperatedly needed money, because time has value too and wasting it away underpaid just isnt okey.
As an artist, someone that collects tarot decks because of the art, and someone who's attempted making a deck and gave up because it's a lot that goes into it, I get why she'd want a fairer pay for it. A typical deck is 78, some decks add two extra cards. Between the symbolism of each card, on top of if you're also doing the art for the backings of the cards, or even the packaging and any booklets that come with it, $50 per card isn't enough. Not ot mention, even though the art is smaller in size, this isn't a playing card we're talking about. Each card is its own work of art and should be treated as such. Some cards require more detail than others. Even looking at a traditional Rider Weight deck, some cards have simpler art on them than others. With how intricate their style is, to do that for a full deck is going to be more than just a flat rate for each card.
Non-artists entitlement towards art is one of the reasons why I flat out don't want to take commissions. I would rather work a 9-5 desk job and come home and make art for myself as a hobby. It is not worth people lecturing you that you should be happy getting paid 2 dollars an hour and working non stop no breaks or sick days to not starve to death or end up homeless. They see art as easy and artists as disposable.
One of my art professors told us his own experiences about the reality of being paid for work that you produce. He’s had times where after a job he’s only been paid months after the work is finished, leading him to take on extra commissions since he isn’t paid right away. A lot of his jobs either don’t pay him the full amount up front or take a long time to get him paid. This is especially stressful considering he is the main breadwinner for his family. I didn’t even realize the reality of not being able to be paid the promised amount on time until he told me what he’s dealt with on past jobs. Since then, I’ve worried what it’ll be like when I get my first contract job as an artist and whether or not I’ll be paid enough to survive.
Absolutely insane she's being bullied for this. I'm nowhere near her caliber and commissions for me of a single card would start at 90. And that's non-commercial. Wild to see people demanding she be exploited.
just a full body piece from most artists will be at least $100. a lot of people price $50 for just a headshot or mid body. also $4000 is only like 3-4 months of rent?? sounds nice, until you gotta think about the amount of pressure you have to be under to fit in the time…. also those people harping on her for needing rent money but not taking the deal, do they think the company will give her $4000 on the spot??? 😭
80 illustrations, in one year? Nah unless they want it to be rushed no way it's possible, PLUS tarot cards type? Are they even aware that artists are humans and not robots? and ONLY 50 dollars for ONE tarot card custom made, Kelly clearly needs some justice, the non-artists aren't aware of how much time it takes. Disappointing.
i had to draw 26 double page spreads for a book in 4 months and i was DYING. i had to do the design and layout of the book, also the printing 💀It was for one of my final university projects, but I would never do it again in such a short time and with low pay.
She is an artist that should charge$300-$700 a piece for her art . 4k for 80 art pieces is theft. And all those angry she didn't take the job..its like me telling someone they are lucky they work for $4 and hour😂 in a regular job.
I feel like the people saying "beggars can't be choosers" are people who are either in a bad company / people around them are in a bad company. Where they feel like they can't leave their jobs even though the company is exploiting them. And because they feel like their jobs are "harder" or more "impactful", they get fussy over someone that could set their own with regardless of their necessities. It feels more to a systemical problem than individual problem... Hope the artist gets more love, their watercolor art looks stunning, and as someone who's partner collect tarot decks, a deck with their style would look absolutely stunning and should be charged highly.
Someone said they could crank out the 80-card deck in a month, girl... You would be doing art for at least 2 cards per day, not gonna happen. People also often forget that revisions are a thing and some customers can get really nitpicky, one work that was supposed to take a few hours now takes a few days.
I mean it makes sense that she posted she needed money for rent. She can do a reasonable commission for that that won't take her a year and wouldn't screw her over with rights and everything else. It's not "beggars can't be choosers" it's someone needing to make the last of the rent in a normal way and scoffing at a ridiculous deal that spits in the face of artists. She seems totally justified to me
Not an artist but I have studied tarot (especially the Thoth deck) rather extensively, $50 per card is too little for the amount of symbolism you have to understand, interpret and then reimagine through your own lens. Otherwise you end up with a superficial generic deck and those are dime a dozen.
I think they went after her more because shes sueing ai user for copyright infringment. I think that added to the hate because ai assholes think all artists are entitled and stupid shit like that.
AGREE!! Last year I just did 12 of the 24 Major Arcana for an exposition, with sharpies and pastel, and it took me from July to October (I literally finished the last piece four days due time)... and I'm not a big experienced artist, so I don't have intricate details. I've been suggested to make the full deck for another expo and HEEELL NO I wouldn't, it's way too much!! What this guy is offering is a joke. - Perhaps if there were royalties in play you may have some arguement that would be some passive income later on (and still, the price is way too low), but for full rights commercial use, 50 a piece made in aquarelle is just blasphemy.
It's always hilarious when non-artists think their 2cents is worth anything on topics about artists. If you're a non-artist, you're NEVER going to get it. I remember several years ago, a popular LPS youtuber held a contest where an artist was supposed to draw them art of their (the youtubers) oc, and that youtuber was going to use it commercially. What would the artist win in this contest? The privilege of this youtuber using their art to make money, and "exposure". When I pointed out how f-ed up that was, the youtuber just said "well, I've done this before!" and I had a bunch of 12 year olds going "I don't care about money! I just want to make people happy with my art!". Great. Enjoy your child-labor artwork, ms.youtuber. Not to mention a 12 year old literally can't participate in any sort of legal deal, like signing a contract to give the youtuber commercial rights to use the artwork on t-shirts and stickers and such. -_-;
Buddy wants a PHYSICAL MEDIA ARTIST to make a FULL COLOR, FULL RENDER, FULLY INKED artwork for a tarot card for 50 bucks and they want it 79 MORE TIMES in the time span of a YEAR. Bro, that won't even pay for DECENT PAINT IN THIS ECONOMY. These are Crayola doodle prices! THOSE ARE SLAVE WAGES, THATS NOT EVEN MINIMUM WAGE. Thats literally like , "hey, make me this custom mahogany table set with filigree inlay and engraving the wood with different wood types. But do it a 50 dollars per chair and have it done in two weeks. You shall get no credit for the design plan nor royalties for your work." Or even better. "Hey , singular programmer. make me a full triple A video game in unity , full rendering and play tested, in under a year for 3000 bucks. No royalty checks or copyright for the video game *you* made.". Art and artist are so looked down upon but yet EVERYONE uses their work in some way shape or form. Disgusting. Where is the empathy and basic knowlage of economics??? The artist isn't bad for rejecting such a shit commission, the would be commissioner is a choosing-beggar , along with any ignorant people DEFENDING them from the artist.😂
That's absurd. They should at least know the bare minimum is what is advised by The Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines. By the way, if anyone is looking for agreements, contracts and how to price, this book has it all. It's not mine and I don't get paid to talk about it, but I've been using for years, so I totally recommend! Edit: Also regarding hours... it's relative. If I do a children's book digital color pencil style of render, a piece takes me at least 53 hours. As comparison, the same art using cellshading takes around 12-15.
When it comes to tarot there are some decks out there with people’s own interpreted artwork for the word and or number and symbols because it is a spiritual thing and it all depends on if people resonate with it. For example I saw a tarot deck that was nightmare before Christmas themed. For this it depends on if the commissioner wanted the tarot deck to be based off the original one then yes it takes time and research for each card and how the commissioner wants to change it to their liking and then also have the whole deck be consistent. So 1 year is definitely not enough time and only 4,000 dollars…yikes
I'm so glad my parents, especially dad are not like those people in the second story. My dads old fashioned (mom stays home, dad works, etc.) but he doesn't push that stuff onto me or my older brother, he only cares so long as we were comfortable. And even when I had first gotten half my head shaved (i have curly hair + sensitive scalp so its a nightmare to deal with and i do have problems with certain textures, such as the feeling of my hair). When my dad saw me, all he did was compliment me and tell me how it looks good. Never once complained or even made a negative comment, he was just happy for me. He doesn't even say something to my brother about his long hair, he just lets it be and never says anything negative. It's absolutely confident booster hearing my dad say such things positive things (my mom does to, of course)
Yeah, It's worth mentioning that Kelly McKernan is one of the main plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit against Stability AI, Midjourney, DeviantArt, Runwaway AI etc. She is one of those fellow artist who fight again those AI company on the front of the "battlefield". They re fighting for artist 's future so this is the time she need our support the most.
I remember a long time ago I made 120 cards (traditional art, they were the size of a credit card) 20dlls each. It was (obviously) the worst decision EVER, and it took me a long time to recover from the burn out.
Absolutely unreal how much flack she's getting for litrally just refusing to be exploited. 50$ a card is OUTRAGEOUSLY low, esp for the amount of skill and hours going into Kelly's work. Yes she needs help to make rent, no she doesnt deserve to be exploited in a predatory 13-month deal for that to happen.
As an artist 80 illustrations for just 4k is insane! I spend hours just planning and sketching! As a senior in high-school living with my parents I'd have to at least be offered upwards to 10k to even consider doing that. Just I'm flabbergasted especially with how complex tarot cards are! Edit 1: And handing over copyright for selling my art?! No way I will ever do that! I have to at least be paid at least a 10% portion of total sales as its my art along with the credits. It may sound greedy but its my work and just it feels icky they'd get to keep all the profit of my work
Artist here also working on a personal tarot deck, this deal is totally exploitative. A tarot deck is a deceptively HUGE project that will require a tonne of work. If the client wants 78 full illustrations cranked out in a year, it would require full-time commitment and should be paid accordingly. Kelly is fully in the right to refuse the deal imo. However, I don't think it was wise for Kelly to essentially e-beg right after explaining this ordeal. I understand needing help, but this shouldn't be aired out to your audience, just comes off as disingenuous and desperate.
$4000 for 80(?) Cards? Holy fuck. Sketches, revisions, research, talking with client, color, lining, and more all for 4000? Maybe if you're undervaluing your work...(CHARGE MORE!) I think people pay more for extremely detailed fursuits and Vtuber models. 🙃 I hate that people are whining that Kelly is being picky on which jobs to take. Like yeah they need 500 now and they're being offered 4000...that doesn't mean the client is paying right away. People deserve the right to be able to take jobs that make them happy. Sometimes people sacrifice their happiness but that doesn't mean everyone has to. Lmao I wanna see that Eric guy do 80 drawings in a month since he wants to talk out of his ass.
This is my first time commenting but as a beginner artist seeing people act like this towards experienced artists is very scary and quite discouraging, I'm a timid person with anxiety and I don't think I'll be able to deal with stuff like this😅
Its hard getting hated on but the average working adult + people like kaliente know better. All the comments on this vid are so supportive of kelly too. I hope this doesnt discourage you. You shouldnt drop your passion because of some weirdos online.
Given that her work is all TRADITIONAL? That'll take a hell of a longer time to make than if she were to whip it up in digital art programs. If it was a digital aspect? Maybe it'll be more of a better deal but traditional wise? Hell no. With that work and how expensive her tools of the trade can get? That's a no bueno situation. And it makes it worse when non-artists chime in and don't understand what it truly takes to make pieces like what artists like her can make.
People just see a big number of money and don't think any further. It really just shows how these people know nothing about art and fairly paid expenses, if they were the ones taking this offer they would regret it fast. Sure you can do it half-assed but besides the immense hours of research, trial and error, you will also need to deal with an entitled client that want expert work for 3x below minimum wage. Be ready for constant revisions, a snarky attitude and a whole lot of your time wasted.
Yikes, they want 80 drawings for 4k,thats 50$ a piece.. and people don't see anything wring with that ? Tarot cards are usually so beautiful withs nice details, id imagine just one one be 200 on the very lowest. It's so sad to see she is getting hate for not taking a deal that is not good for her in anyway at all. its like they don't understand people have lives , other commitments, AND u should have time to relax and some fun in there too. whole things is just super sad..
After taxes, cost of supplies and overhead, the artist is very likely to be losing money overall at that rate, especially with potential opportunity cost. They'd be better off taking all the upfront risk themselves, making the deck with art they'll own in the end (and can sell, potentially at 4k on one piece alone), printing and selling those decks. They're bringing 100% of the value and the commissioner's offer simply doesn't reflect that. Barely offsetting cost is just not enough remuneration to obtain ownership of another persons time, effort and expression.
Yeah plus the commissioner retains all rights, meaning the artist only gets the one and done payment, while they can continue to sell the art, tarot, and probably other merch from it like stickers, buttons, shirts.. Yeah HECK NO. That's minimum $20k. MINIMUM.
It's definitely sad how much this artist is being bullied for not wanting to be exploited. People are completely ignoring the time, effort, costs for materials, research, check-ins, and any other requirements per piece. Just because she needs money. Imagine this same logic was applied to a contractor. "I want you to build a subdivision for this cool $4000, expenses on you." Heck, offering someone $4000 to build a single house would be an abysmal offer. Someone struggling to pay bills or eat shouldn't mean that they deserve to make less to work twice as hard... oh, that's depressing. I just accidently described capitalism. . . I'm gonna need a minute.
This is literally what every high value freelancer follows, not just artists. How are people so oblivious, why would a great artist or any other skilled person take less for their work.
I’ve done 50$ per illustration before: but the big difference was, it was emergency commissions (cause I got triple charged for an class which put me in the negatives and I’m in a country with a bank with crazy overdraft fees and had no overdraft protection, yikes) and my first time doing commissions seriously. So, acknowledging my need for quantity over quality comms at that moment, and the fact that I had far less experience doing commissioned work than artists offering at higher rates than me, I set a low ball price. I don’t regret doing that, at all. It was needed at the time, it taught me a lot about the commission process, and I gained enough experience doing it that I felt comfortable charging higher in future, non-emergency situations. 50 dollars was really low, but the thing is, I was the one who set that rate and decided the value as was necessary for the situation. If someone came into my DMs valuing my work at 50 as opposed to me essentially holding a sale at 50 so I could cover overdraft, I would definitely decline.
I may not know anything about tarot cards but one thing I know for sure as an artist is that 4000 dollars for 80 fully rendered illustrations is crazy to even offer. The thing is 4000 is a lot but not enough to for few months of rent even enough for other necessities.
tarot cards are a passion project thing for the most part. they arent all super detailed but thats keeping in mind that even more abstract or simple ones are done because the artist wants a personal take on the deck and knows they can manage to sell it. i tried to and managed to make a design for every card as a personal project in highschool, it was a lot of effort and i still feel a bit upset with how i managed the minor arcana. im not about to start posting the old work ever since i dont have even the sway to sell anything at all let alone a deck of cards. i cant imagine someone who understands how much symbolism goes into tarot cards unironically thinking a rate like that is okay, coming up with consistent often times personal themes (something that feels like the heart of non-waite decks) that dont contridict or muddy meanings takes so much effort that minimum wage doesnt even feel realistic. not unless the person commissoning has a solid layout for themes really, i doubt someone trying to cheapskate it cares that much
The big issue here is that people dont consider what the particular artist who got the offer, uses per painting in the style the commissioner wanted. I can crank out 80 cards in a day, or two hours, but I'm quite its not the type the commissioner wanted. I think that's the disconnect, which ofc is typical of twitter, short form content to get everyone misunderstand each other, and then fight for maximum engagement to sell ad spots to people. LOL. As a thought experiment, you'd have to push out one card in 4 hours, to get 12.50$/h. Doing anything fully colored and thought out, in 4 hours doesnt sound like its gonna be that high quality work, espessially if there's an expectation of any back and forth with the commissioner, reviews etc.
I have attempted to draw a whole tarot card deck multiple times. I have given up multiple times because it is DRAINING. If you're doing both Major and Minor arcana, that's 80ish cards. 4K for that much physical and mental labor is WILD all things considered.
Idk where kelly lives but in california 4k BARELY covers rent for a small studio apt for two months with no groceries or gas. She might even be married and have kids and a mortgage. People dont realize if you take this job even if youre desperate you ABSOLUTELY screw yourself up the wazoo later down the line. On one hand, you keep working after the money has run out and go into debt as your bills accumulate. Maybe you pick up a second gig but you are overworking yourself and you are still working on a fulltime commission job that is not paying your rent. On the other hand, a better job comes up and you break the contract midway through and you have to return part/all of the 4k plus pay a contract break fee. There is NO POINT in taking a job like this unless you were living for free with your parents.
Rider-Waite is the most popular deck of tarot cards. They aren’t basic cards. Even if you worked on one card per week, it would take 80 weeks. Well over a year. The offer is ridiculous and well below minimum wage. The person who made the offer probably saw her other tweet about not being able to make rent and thought she would jump at it. 😢
I don't usually comment but this genuinely made me mad. Four thousand for EIGHTY CARDS? And within a year is even worse imo. You're asking this of a single mom who most likely has a LOT of other things to do. You're taking time and resources away for a huge ton of work and only giving her 4,000 for a year? And then SHE is criticized for not taking such an insulting offer? Artists are to be respected and trying to give them so little for so much is just gross. I feel so bad for her.
.... but also you know these people aren't artists because they don't have a single issue with the price included the copyright to each illustration. Like it should add at least 200 bucks per illustration to the price of the illustrations themselves so even at 25 bucks per piece it would have to be 18'000 dollars MINIMUM. (225x80) Because there are people who sell their art for 25 bucks (they're 100% devaluting themselves but let's pretend they don't). So admitting that they went to someone in their price range 4000 dollars would still be 14000 dollars short for the value of the pieces they want to commission. for. an. artist. that. asks. 25. dollars. per. drawing. And you won't find cheaper than that. (maybe they'd sell the copyright at 150 so 14000 which is still 10k more than what proposed but NO ONE WOULD GO LOWER unless they're a child who doesn't understand what it even means & if that's the case then you're exploiting a minor)
I'm guessing that illustration gotta be HD so that's gonna be 1 week worth 350dpi on at least 6.98 x 12.1cm, 30 hour week illustrations per card. Unless you know someone in South East Asia who can draw that fast, that consistent, that stylized, and that cheap - then good luck. For a $4000 pay in a year, worth of work without holidays, that's just a fifth of American minimum living wage iirc and certainly not worth the price. Heck, just commission a VTuber model at this point than a Tarot deck... or half the commission for the "reversed tarots" doesn't strictly need a separate illustration. It's still way too cheap though. All of this might not account for corrections too which can double the workload. Average artist I knew draw at a speed of 1 image per week on average with corrections. That's without considering sick days for their wrists. If anyone willing to pick it then so be it, just be warned that no wonder they rejected it.
I have cheap commissions open, there are other artist with cheap commissions open, don't go under paying established artists when there is a lot of us trying to build up our businesses who would happily do it. As dumb as it sounds it is true! My commissions are 3$ for an icon and 5$ for a full body. If you want cheap art look for people who are trying to kick start their business, especially if it comes with exposure.
The fact thwt people can't comprehend that work that's not just a one off personal commission or adoptable that's 80 fully made wnd renrered pieces cut and sized and edited after probably by the artist is going to cost q lot because you're also selling the rights and basically 80 slots of freelance work that could've been taken up by other clients in the time it eould take that long, is disappointing. Especially that gross comment about taking 80 hours for work. Fully rendered art is hard to master! And if you're traditional you're taking extra time to correct it. How incredibly frustrating.
Wow 50$ a card and in one year??? I have literally been planning this sort of project for myself, not even for others to see or anything and I 100% know its going to take me several years to even get partly done. Just holy shit thats so cheap. Yes tarot cards are all VERY SPECIFIC like each one is super intricate and specific to the reason the card would appear in the deck. Even doing the suits as super simple art its still insane. Non-artists/ hobby folks need to know its an insane undertaking. ALSO OMFG TO GIVE UP THE RIGHTS??? NOPE THATS LIKE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ALONE! What the hell is wrong with people holy hell.
To be honest, $4,000 could be feasible if there’s a common layout for every card and you’re using 3D, especially if they don't expect high-quality work or ultra-detailed images. One of my first serious commissions was a set of 52 cards for $5,000, and it took me just one week to complete the entire project, from the initial rough sketches to the final client review. Of course, I would charge more if I had to do it again, but hey, at least it paid the bills.
Well, I guess it also depends on media and technique. Even when woodburning should be more expensive, when I sold it in conventions, I normally used designed templates and flat colors in my work, so I didn't worked that much. So I sold those quite cheap and in more volume. Now that I domostly ink and paper, that should be cheaper, but since I are unique works that must make one at a time, I sell them more casual but also more expensive. I dunno the difficulties and perks of 3d modeling, but at least for big-format aquarelle (her media) it wouldn't be costly.
@@potblessed 3D can significantly speed up your workflow when combined with digital painting. You don't have to spend as much time thinking about perspective or shading, for example. Texturing is also quite easy. If you need to work on a complex perspective (like fisheye), you can essentially work in an orthogonal view and then click a button during rendering to achieve the desired effect. Imagine trying to do that with watercolor ; it will be painful. However, in the end, the most important thing is not the commission itself but the brief you receive before starting a project. Sometimes I refuse to work on a project because the brief is unclear. But yes, her medium doesn't fit this kind of commission.
She’s part of my art bubble amd i saw this post. I didn’t even read the comments because i just thought yeah man obviously that is a ridiculous ask. I would take almost the whole commission price for one single card, because this is what my time is worth and what is the decent industry pay rate. I would also assume one traditional illustration like that takes around 40-60 hours, including sketches, changes and research.
Also giving the 'Well its a JOB.. just do minimum wage.. gosh..' vibes too from the comments. Like damn. Just because we get minimum wage doesn't mean its livable wages. We've been fighting for livable wages for customer service jobs for decades now. I'll finally hit $15/hr.. next January... it was voted on.. over 8 years ago by the way.
i think that if this artist wants to take the job, just give it to them, sure we may not agree that it’s fair but that is very well their choice no? again i think it’s fucked not getting good pay but that is up to the artist themselves if they’re willing to accept it or not we can’t gatekeep that from them just cus we disagree imo
to be fair, if another artist wants to take on that job, let them? if they consider their time and art to be worth that much, then let them. it feels a bit odd to almost gatekeep the info of the buyer. artists are allowed to charge whatever they want, even if they may not seem eye to eye with others. whether they charge $50 for a fullbody or $10, is up to the artist themself. let artists have BOTH cheap and expensive commissions.
If someone gave you only 4k to build the foundation of a house with 2 rooms WITH working heaters attached would you take it? No right? Its the same thing that that dude was asking of her. No one is desperate enough to make 4k with that amount of time sweat and tears but into it either. Plus having to show them works in progress and having to redo everything they want changed is unreasonable. Non artist should be told like that if they wanna stick their noses in where it doesnt belong
i think it would be totally different if the images were thumbnail size and very low rez, but from the sounds of it that's not what they were asked to make. the client wanted full resolution artwork to then shrink down onto tarot cards which is a much different ask. many artists that do a tarot set also tend to sell the card art at full size on posters, shirts, etc. I dont think that giving the artist a proper amount is them being ungrateful or stuck up. if the client wanted just mini drawings that are no bigger then like a discord pfp and would only be used for the cards then maybe 4k is fine, but even then using low rez art and printing it on premium card stock looks shitty usually. it takes a good amount of tinkering and adjusting to get digital art (or even mass produced traditional art) ready for print. and to also not get any sort residual agreement is also quite predatory. anything where you take away ownership from the creator, deserves a pretty sizable upcharge imo. good on her for standing up for herself and also entertaining the unaware users responding with ignorance when she didnt have to.
I think the price might be different depending on where the artist lives, like maybe their minimal wage is much lower so this amount of money is enought for them, so that might be the reason that other artist wanted to accept the deal but idk I could be wrong cause I didn't check where they live
its low key kinda cringe for non artist to even talk back at us. you have no skill and creativity what do you want? ( TALKING ABT ANY ART HERE MUSIC MAKING INCL. SINCE THIS COULD HAPPEN FOR MAKING MUSIC 2 . example: play at our 3 day concert ever day u get paid 50 dollars whole. yes ik its not the same i'm simply talking about getting underpaid. others might be like: ez like 9 songs for 50 dollars... but rlly u have to learn all the songs . if its a really skilled and popular band espechially since thats like the artist ) its really wierd to even think thats a good ideo when the person who knows more about it clearly says its not. its probaply also the people who see no problem with ai, since "if you put your art on the internet they can take it" no they cant. this is simply disgusting.
People have no idea what a job is and need to touch grass. You get paid by an hourly wage. 50$ per card is not an hourly wage, thus not even close to a livable wage on top of that it would be straight working hell to do all 80 cards in one year. To put in perspective I only get paid a little over 12$ at my job currently and I only work about 6-7 hours. I get 70-80$ per workday. It barely allows ends to meet where I live. 50$ for her to work in overdrive on 80 pieces is a freaking SCAM. Ain't worth jack to touch that project especially at her art level. She's worth more. I had to do 15 pieces for an art class in highschool I took and I hated it. Actually completely dissuaded me from ever touching art schools in the future too, literally can watch art teachers here on YT and get education for free without feeling unneeded pressure and stress that our education system brings to students. You don't even get paid in school for the art you make lol. Never worth it to deadline multiple pieces like that unless someone is paying HELLA money for it. If I'm gonna work overdrive on multiple pieces and suffer mentally for it then I need good incentives to work.
even if u were a genius and could make one card a day that would still be about 1300$ per month which is such a scam like imagine taking 3 days for an illustration, thats only ≈450$ a month like at this point i‘d just ask to be homeless.
the fact adults are hating on this subject too is wild. up this point i thought i was only talking to teenagers whenever they got mad a topic, they haven't mastered or want to dvelve into...
i say the artist make the prices if she want that much what is absolutely fair cause she is a watercolor drawer its completely say to no i dont take this deal accept my prices or go its wild that other artist bullying her for that. Traditional u cant just make undo and u draw it again or others u must probably begin from new then
Sharing my own experiences with exploitation of artist from non artist. There once a drama where a non artist complains that Furry Artist in the US charges up to 1000$ for an art piece. But you can gain the same piece for 25$ overseas in Asia for example. But the thing is that they don't know that other country currency is lower than that of the US Dollar. Like in my country alone, 25$ can buy you two weeks worth of groceries for a person. But even that amount doesn't gives the artist a living wage. And artist that set such price usually are still new and in need of steady client.
This makes me a little worried for a commission I did awhile back, was 65 deck of cards, 20$ usd a hour coming to a little over 2.7k $ got it done in 3 months. They were going to be sold on their online store, and they'd have full rights to the art since I'm a freelancer under contract with them. I wouldn't be paid anything more if the deck of cards sold. (since then I don't even know what they did with the art I made for them...) Originally I did it because I was hoping I could get a set of the cards for free lol. I've been working for them for 10 years now, but won't go more into detail, because I worry I'll just come off as stupid if I find out I've been getting under paid for this long without realizing it...
not taking the commission is fair another artist asking for the commission is fair not giving the other artist the opportunity is fair but not good faith giving the criticism that beggars cant be chosers is fair. but mocking someone for having hard times is not.
to be fair the person who agreed to the $4000 price might be from outside America or the west in general to them it's a lot of money like for me i would take it because to me it would be nearly R80000 (south africa) which more the minimum wage here, here i can't expect to be paid more than 200 rand for commissions which is nearly $20 per illustration
I think it's a bit unfair towards those who want to do it for less. People are forgetting that USA isn't the only country. If someone says they need at least 50k a year that doesn't mean someone else is living in poverty with 15k a year. That's a valid pay and gives you comfortable life in many countries. Third world needs even less money. So it seems unfair. If someone would offer me a job for 10$/h i would be more than happy to do it because living costs here are not that high as in LA. In other words people from different ends of the world getting 10k/year, 20k/year and 50k/year could have same quality of life.
Mass production has created a delusional customer base. You pay so little for that thing that took countless hours to design because theres 3MILLION COPIES of them pushed out at 2000 in AN HOUR. Thats where the cost effectuality comes from. When you ask a single person to make a unique object, you’re personally fronting the cost for that R&D project! So instead of some big wig paying 300k to commission her and then reprint millions for resale like store bought tarot decks do to be affordable, you have to pay that 300k yourself for that personal right! You think you can ask a construction crew to build you a freaking house for cheaper than a condo apartment purchase? Fat chance! Productions only cheap when its en masse, solo projects cost as much to start as big commercial ones, quit being a begging entrepreneur.
alix is not even an artist. what is she hoohaing about. =_= For the others that is asking for the artist to send THEM the job offer instead, if you want the job that badly, go ask the company for it. Theres a reason you're not the one chosen by the company cus your style is NOT what the company wants and not up to par as kelly's work. So feel free to bring your portfolio up to the company and offer your own work to them for that low wage then.
I want to be honest: we should avoid Tweddit like was that sketchy part of town where you don't go if you have no business there and you try to get out fast if you have business there!
Non-Artists bullying them is WILD! They don’t understand how long art takes to make, let alone TRADITIONAL art and cost of materials, yet they still feel the need to be voicing their opinions 💀💀
The Internet & Social Media are fickle things, just as they allow one access to almost any information they can dream of should they know where/how to look & sometimes have money to spend, but it is a place where people can spew forth uninformed bad takes & spread hate.
Also, I imagine that the rise of Automated Plagiarism, aka Generative AI, has definitely emboldened some to make unreasonable requests of actual humans because the computer can plagiarise something close to the requestors desired result for what is practically a rounding error compared to what a person should be paid for the work, though this is mainly true for large projects like the tarot deck request discussed in the video
like this whole thing, it reminds me of how nonartists are so easy to criticize the art itself without a single creative bone in their body. (Like how people might value their art at different prices for commissions)
And I know art is subjective and opinion based but if you're belittling someone who clearly has unique, attractive, meaningful work, and values their work highly... You really have no space to talk. ESPECIALLY if you don't understand living situations and making a living off of this. Not even the average job can pay right.
80 illustrations is crazy, I don’t think I could do 80 full artworks in one year (that’s nearly one finished fully rendered artwork per 2 days, which is insane because it takes multiple days to finish an single artwork usually)
Plus 50$ is what most people put as one of their lowest price options on commissions …
I often only do one art a week. Theres 52 weeks in a year. There’s 80 cards and each card may take even longer than that. Getting the material, painting, drying, making changes, starting all over when there’s mistakes or changes. There’s no way I could devote so much time into getting the detailed work done faster for only 4k. That’s supposed to last me a year? Crazy.
Not to mention that u might not get 1 illustration done in those 2days coz ur waiting for feedback-tweaks etc. like are these ppl counting weekends as working days ?
80 illustrations can be doable... if the artstyle is very simplified. But still for that price WITH all the rights to the images?!?! Maybe if they're stickmen... And 1 year is pretty fast for such a low priority|high quantity commission, price-wise.
Omg I forgot they wanted COPYRIGHT of the art 80 CUSTOM ILLUSTRATIONS FOR 4,000 HELL NAHHH . My fellow artists take this as a sign to up your prices please!
Idt that's the problem here
@@daphenomenalz4100it is!
They are literally trying to SCAM the artist to get the cheapest they may and with copyright they could resell with NO issues since its owned by them FULLY now and may price HOWEVER they want
So the internet is using the fact that someone needs to pay rent in order to pressure them to take extremely low paying work.... that sounds like extortion/abuse. Sending love to the artist ❤
i'm not an artist but 4k a year (a year of work) is crazy because most jobs pay 4k a *month*
this is exactly the point that people can't seem to wrap their head around 😭
@@ShimiChuu one good drawing took me 13hs just going back and forth what abt 80 and 1y to review them all 🫠
There jobs that pay 4k for a month there?.. PLS. TAKE. ME.
@@Justsemoneexistinglikely diff countries 😭🙏 pretty sure getting paid 2k in my country is WEALTHY 💀💀
@@ShimiChuu YEA
One card for 50$? I get how some people think that's a lot, but it takes me about 4 hours and tons of motivation to make a single rendered drawing so I'm completely worn out. Artists do not spend years, decades, making work for fun just to be shit on completely lmao. and then when they try to gain respect online, they are mistreated or they are new to taking commissions, and they don't set their prices high for commissions. (i don't know much about commissions but if you set prices low your customers are usually horrible because they think your art is really worth a small amount.)
Exactly! For me I can take upwards of a week for some illustrations (generally though I take 2days to finish a piece at most) , not to mention the severe burnout that would definitely occur if you had to make that much art….
It’s so sad how artists get treated and ai imagery just making it worse :I
What’s even crazier even when the artist is selling commissions for a low amount let’s say 10 bucks the commissioners will try to get those artists to go even lower or guilt trip and say their art sucks anyway just to make them feel even worse and give their art away for free. Just more reasons to charge a lot and let the haters hate and maybe recommend them fiverr and tell them they get what they pay for.
@@jamille101 Exactly. there's a person out there selling art that will suit at least that one persons specific standards. No need to guilt trip them into breaking their own rules
This is one of the reasons i did not take commissions yet: i don't know how to price myself to avoid exploitation and at the same time to hear "your prices are too high" or being ask for refund if the customer don't like the piece
Also tarot cards have a lot of meaning that you need to convey into the card in order for the reader to get a proper reading so it wouldn't be only the time spent drawing but also the time spent researching to get that paint done...
The fact that there are people who never did art or has no ideal that the offer is pretty much a low rate or pay are giving her crap for not taking the deal despite not having a clue how long it would take needs to stop being delusional because thats easier said than done.
$50 is basically what the deck alone could cost for a buyer, meaning they would only need to sell 80 decks to break even in the art payout which is very reasonable to achieve in terms of selling.
But that's not how you pay artists. That's not how you acquire commercial rights and make it enticing for an artist to do custom work for every card. This isn't rights retained, this isn't premade art being used for the cards.
This is custom work, which is expected to sell far higher than 80 units and so net far more profit for the seller.
They could offer to do multiple artists to adjust cost, or even a single piece that fits the budget. There's options to consider
But $50 an image is what you pay for new artists on Twitter who draw OCs for gas money (hi, I'm one of those), not a freelance illustrator who takes multiple hours and days to complete work that they won't keep the rights to in order to cover cost with their own prints and merch on the side
Ffs
Seeing kellys style and how detailed it is its understandable why they wouldn't want to take this deal the amount of time, effort and skill in their art takes years to achieve even decades so 50 a card is not as reasonable as people think
In my school, I had to make an entire illustration book with complex/full illustrations as the finals. 25 fully collored illustrations, started in November and due for June. It was barely possible, in fact I ended up missing 1-2 illustrations and had to cut a lot of details just to make it by june (and include printing and receiving the book).
Let me tell you that it was almost impossible, and many of my classmates are missing illustrations. 80 illustrations a year is not feasible unless you're REALLY fast, don't do anything besides that, have a lot of knowledge about tarot and work with a fast medium on simpler deck illustrations (knowing a card has TWO sides as well). And even with that, you're still very underpaid. A complete complex illustration is at the very bare minimum over 100$
I did a wacky artbook and one I was ashamed of in a single damn month. It was not only not fun, it was a huge blow to my self esteem.
At maximum speed I can only draw one image per 3 days, and it's dogwater. Colored in rainforest piss and how people perceive Mexico in films filter.
And I got a severe flu and dehydration for the week after.
The lesson is do NOT make an artbook in a month alone. Simply put, just don't. No buts or ifs.
Even if given extra 30 days, I still found troubles forcing my friends to meet deadlines they set themselves.
Ask a lot of artists, they always say "make your product ONE YEAR IN ADVANCE." It's not laziness, it's just experience for quality.
It's worth mentioning that Kelly McKernan is one of the main plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit against Stability AI, Midjourney, DeviantArt, Runwaway AI etc. and has drawn a large and consistent amount of hate from AIbros. Some of the bigger responses to her tweets were from AIbros that devalue artists, such as 8:32 is an AIbro account.
The person thinking that super detailed 80 artworks can be done in a month is insanity itself ☠️
Ppl making fun of them for not being able to make rent is legitimately so despicable. Evil people. Just because someone is poor (or even struggling for a little bit in general) doesn't mean they deserve exploitation?? It also doesn't mean they deserve to lose their home. Wtf is wrong with ppl?
Your right tarot is a VERY deep thing for people and you need to understand the symbolism for the cards to read correctly/carry the meaning. This may require an artist to research the background of the cards if they don't already have that background. Also i know the artist didn't specify but was it just the art or did they want the cards completely laid out? So then they would have to design a back of the car, the text/front of the card where the art is, AND make 75 unique drawings and make that all cohesive because if its not cohesive people will not enjoy the deck.
Edit: Also this assuming this is a standard tarot deck! Some people make their own tarot/oracle cards so this could be even harder depending on what the actual details of the project are.
Some people just want pretty illustrations, but it's like making a picture book: You can't just Google how to write a short story and spit one out, if you don't want to put in the time and effort to make a proper story, memorable characters, memorable designs, and so on, you're gonna end up with something that's pretty but functionally an art book. Similarly, for tarot, you can't just look at a list of symbolism keywords and be able to put together a good deck, because things like weapons, adornments, actions depicted, setting, colours used, and so on are all used in tarot to make the cards functional tools... I have no issues with people just making random tarot inspired decks, but they're functionally bad /tarot/ decks. I've sat and started working on so many decks as a tarot reader and artist and my god, the amount of hours you have to spend studying what tarot is let alone sitting and planning out what themes, symbolism, etc you're going to use and divide up between cards, let alone the thumbnailing of the card imagery, let alone doing and finishing the cards - let alone all the extra stuff of making sure the deck is cohesive and usable and the box design and typing up the booklet (which could be done by someone who isn't the artist.... Except the artist is the only one who knows what symbolism they put in the cards so they at least have to type up rough notes) yeah. You could pay me like 150 a card and I'd maybe begin to consider it - /because/ I have a lot of the necessary research and practice already partly done
To be clear that's agreeing with you, just providing another viewpoint to back it up. Also, the 150 thing is not a basis I recommend. If you want 70+ full illustrations you better be willing to pay the price of 70+ full illustrations. If you want 70+ full TAROT illustrations... my god you better be a big studio with heavy wallets lmfao
There is a reason, why the sentiment goes "artists are poor" - why yes, when they dont get paid and are expected to sell themselves below their worth by these dips**ts -.- Glad to see there are some artists that know their worth and dont let themselves being goated by bad offers. Hope she's doing well.
10:20 Did that person just say they can do 80 illustrations…IN A MONTH??? Now that’s how you know your talking to a non artist.
I am kind of sad that not much has changed in the area of commission prices
like i used to sell commissions for fun as a hobby really, im not like an amazing artist or anything, i was a student trying to get a bit of money in my spare time doing my hobby
and i remember how even then there was this whole discussion between people who said 25€ for an artwork that took you like 1 full day if not more is too little, and those who said "well i aint gonna pay 50€ if i can get it for 25€ elsewhere"
so like this was 10 years ago if not more and its so saddening to see that art isnt appreciated still
she is absolutely right on her pricing!
like i wouldnt take a job either that pays me under minimum wage even if i desperatedly needed money, because time has value too and wasting it away underpaid just isnt okey.
As an artist, someone that collects tarot decks because of the art, and someone who's attempted making a deck and gave up because it's a lot that goes into it, I get why she'd want a fairer pay for it. A typical deck is 78, some decks add two extra cards. Between the symbolism of each card, on top of if you're also doing the art for the backings of the cards, or even the packaging and any booklets that come with it, $50 per card isn't enough. Not ot mention, even though the art is smaller in size, this isn't a playing card we're talking about. Each card is its own work of art and should be treated as such. Some cards require more detail than others. Even looking at a traditional Rider Weight deck, some cards have simpler art on them than others. With how intricate their style is, to do that for a full deck is going to be more than just a flat rate for each card.
Non-artists entitlement towards art is one of the reasons why I flat out don't want to take commissions. I would rather work a 9-5 desk job and come home and make art for myself as a hobby. It is not worth people lecturing you that you should be happy getting paid 2 dollars an hour and working non stop no breaks or sick days to not starve to death or end up homeless. They see art as easy and artists as disposable.
One of my art professors told us his own experiences about the reality of being paid for work that you produce. He’s had times where after a job he’s only been paid months after the work is finished, leading him to take on extra commissions since he isn’t paid right away. A lot of his jobs either don’t pay him the full amount up front or take a long time to get him paid. This is especially stressful considering he is the main breadwinner for his family. I didn’t even realize the reality of not being able to be paid the promised amount on time until he told me what he’s dealt with on past jobs. Since then, I’ve worried what it’ll be like when I get my first contract job as an artist and whether or not I’ll be paid enough to survive.
Absolutely insane she's being bullied for this. I'm nowhere near her caliber and commissions for me of a single card would start at 90. And that's non-commercial. Wild to see people demanding she be exploited.
just a full body piece from most artists will be at least $100. a lot of people price $50 for just a headshot or mid body.
also $4000 is only like 3-4 months of rent?? sounds nice, until you gotta think about the amount of pressure you have to be under to fit in the time….
also those people harping on her for needing rent money but not taking the deal, do they think the company will give her $4000 on the spot??? 😭
I love how you're traveling but never catching a break with the art community drama, kudos to you!! 🤣🤣🤣
Being exploited is like, do stuff for me, I'll pay you with cloud/shout out.. pay the artist what they deserve!
80 illustrations, in one year? Nah unless they want it to be rushed no way it's possible, PLUS tarot cards type? Are they even aware that artists are humans and not robots? and ONLY 50 dollars for ONE tarot card custom made, Kelly clearly needs some justice, the non-artists aren't aware of how much time it takes. Disappointing.
Also eric the stupid thinking they can do that in a month lmaoooo
i had to draw 26 double page spreads for a book in 4 months and i was DYING. i had to do the design and layout of the book, also the printing 💀It was for one of my final university projects, but I would never do it again in such a short time and with low pay.
She is an artist that should charge$300-$700 a piece for her art . 4k for 80 art pieces is theft.
And all those angry she didn't take the job..its like me telling someone they are lucky they work for $4 and hour😂 in a regular job.
honestly this makes me think about rich peoples telling poor peoples that theyre lazy cause they dont want to work a nine to five
Kim K and her "Get your asses up, and work" fr
I feel like the people saying "beggars can't be choosers" are people who are either in a bad company / people around them are in a bad company. Where they feel like they can't leave their jobs even though the company is exploiting them.
And because they feel like their jobs are "harder" or more "impactful", they get fussy over someone that could set their own with regardless of their necessities.
It feels more to a systemical problem than individual problem... Hope the artist gets more love, their watercolor art looks stunning, and as someone who's partner collect tarot decks, a deck with their style would look absolutely stunning and should be charged highly.
Someone said they could crank out the 80-card deck in a month, girl... You would be doing art for at least 2 cards per day, not gonna happen. People also often forget that revisions are a thing and some customers can get really nitpicky, one work that was supposed to take a few hours now takes a few days.
I mean it makes sense that she posted she needed money for rent. She can do a reasonable commission for that that won't take her a year and wouldn't screw her over with rights and everything else. It's not "beggars can't be choosers" it's someone needing to make the last of the rent in a normal way and scoffing at a ridiculous deal that spits in the face of artists. She seems totally justified to me
Not an artist but I have studied tarot (especially the Thoth deck) rather extensively, $50 per card is too little for the amount of symbolism you have to understand, interpret and then reimagine through your own lens. Otherwise you end up with a superficial generic deck and those are dime a dozen.
I think they went after her more because shes sueing ai user for copyright infringment. I think that added to the hate because ai assholes think all artists are entitled and stupid shit like that.
Another commenter said 8:32 was an AI bro so it could very well be those ai losers punching down on her also.
AGREE!! Last year I just did 12 of the 24 Major Arcana for an exposition, with sharpies and pastel, and it took me from July to October (I literally finished the last piece four days due time)... and I'm not a big experienced artist, so I don't have intricate details. I've been suggested to make the full deck for another expo and HEEELL NO I wouldn't, it's way too much!! What this guy is offering is a joke. - Perhaps if there were royalties in play you may have some arguement that would be some passive income later on (and still, the price is way too low), but for full rights commercial use, 50 a piece made in aquarelle is just blasphemy.
It's always hilarious when non-artists think their 2cents is worth anything on topics about artists. If you're a non-artist, you're NEVER going to get it. I remember several years ago, a popular LPS youtuber held a contest where an artist was supposed to draw them art of their (the youtubers) oc, and that youtuber was going to use it commercially. What would the artist win in this contest? The privilege of this youtuber using their art to make money, and "exposure". When I pointed out how f-ed up that was, the youtuber just said "well, I've done this before!" and I had a bunch of 12 year olds going "I don't care about money! I just want to make people happy with my art!". Great. Enjoy your child-labor artwork, ms.youtuber. Not to mention a 12 year old literally can't participate in any sort of legal deal, like signing a contract to give the youtuber commercial rights to use the artwork on t-shirts and stickers and such. -_-;
Buddy wants a PHYSICAL MEDIA ARTIST to make a FULL COLOR, FULL RENDER, FULLY INKED artwork for a tarot card for 50 bucks and they want it 79 MORE TIMES in the time span of a YEAR.
Bro, that won't even pay for DECENT PAINT IN THIS ECONOMY. These are Crayola doodle prices!
THOSE ARE SLAVE WAGES, THATS NOT EVEN MINIMUM WAGE.
Thats literally like , "hey, make me this custom mahogany table set with filigree inlay and engraving the wood with different wood types. But do it a 50 dollars per chair and have it done in two weeks. You shall get no credit for the design plan nor royalties for your work." Or even better.
"Hey , singular programmer. make me a full triple A video game in unity , full rendering and play tested, in under a year for 3000 bucks. No royalty checks or copyright for the video game *you* made.".
Art and artist are so looked down upon but yet EVERYONE uses their work in some way shape or form. Disgusting. Where is the empathy and basic knowlage of economics???
The artist isn't bad for rejecting such a shit commission, the would be commissioner is a choosing-beggar , along with any ignorant people DEFENDING them from the artist.😂
I'm not a great artist, but even I can understand that 4000 is not enough for 80 cards
That's absurd. They should at least know the bare minimum is what is advised by The Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines. By the way, if anyone is looking for agreements, contracts and how to price, this book has it all. It's not mine and I don't get paid to talk about it, but I've been using for years, so I totally recommend!
Edit: Also regarding hours... it's relative. If I do a children's book digital color pencil style of render, a piece takes me at least 53 hours. As comparison, the same art using cellshading takes around 12-15.
When it comes to tarot there are some decks out there with people’s own interpreted artwork for the word and or number and symbols because it is a spiritual thing and it all depends on if people resonate with it. For example I saw a tarot deck that was nightmare before Christmas themed. For this it depends on if the commissioner wanted the tarot deck to be based off the original one then yes it takes time and research for each card and how the commissioner wants to change it to their liking and then also have the whole deck be consistent. So 1 year is definitely not enough time and only 4,000 dollars…yikes
I'm so glad my parents, especially dad are not like those people in the second story. My dads old fashioned (mom stays home, dad works, etc.) but he doesn't push that stuff onto me or my older brother, he only cares so long as we were comfortable. And even when I had first gotten half my head shaved (i have curly hair + sensitive scalp so its a nightmare to deal with and i do have problems with certain textures, such as the feeling of my hair). When my dad saw me, all he did was compliment me and tell me how it looks good.
Never once complained or even made a negative comment, he was just happy for me. He doesn't even say something to my brother about his long hair, he just lets it be and never says anything negative. It's absolutely confident booster hearing my dad say such things positive things (my mom does to, of course)
Yeah, It's worth mentioning that Kelly McKernan is one of the main plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit against Stability AI, Midjourney, DeviantArt, Runwaway AI etc. She is one of those fellow artist who fight again those AI company on the front of the "battlefield". They re fighting for artist 's future so this is the time she need our support the most.
I remember a long time ago I made 120 cards (traditional art, they were the size of a credit card) 20dlls each.
It was (obviously) the worst decision EVER, and it took me a long time to recover from the burn out.
$240 for what had to be thousands of hours of work should be illegal I’m so sorry you went through that
Absolutely unreal how much flack she's getting for litrally just refusing to be exploited. 50$ a card is OUTRAGEOUSLY low, esp for the amount of skill and hours going into Kelly's work. Yes she needs help to make rent, no she doesnt deserve to be exploited in a predatory 13-month deal for that to happen.
As an artist 80 illustrations for just 4k is insane! I spend hours just planning and sketching! As a senior in high-school living with my parents I'd have to at least be offered upwards to 10k to even consider doing that. Just I'm flabbergasted especially with how complex tarot cards are!
Edit 1: And handing over copyright for selling my art?! No way I will ever do that! I have to at least be paid at least a 10% portion of total sales as its my art along with the credits. It may sound greedy but its my work and just it feels icky they'd get to keep all the profit of my work
Artist here also working on a personal tarot deck, this deal is totally exploitative. A tarot deck is a deceptively HUGE project that will require a tonne of work. If the client wants 78 full illustrations cranked out in a year, it would require full-time commitment and should be paid accordingly. Kelly is fully in the right to refuse the deal imo.
However, I don't think it was wise for Kelly to essentially e-beg right after explaining this ordeal. I understand needing help, but this shouldn't be aired out to your audience, just comes off as disingenuous and desperate.
$4000 for 80(?) Cards? Holy fuck.
Sketches, revisions, research, talking with client, color, lining, and more all for 4000? Maybe if you're undervaluing your work...(CHARGE MORE!)
I think people pay more for extremely detailed fursuits and Vtuber models. 🙃
I hate that people are whining that Kelly is being picky on which jobs to take. Like yeah they need 500 now and they're being offered 4000...that doesn't mean the client is paying right away. People deserve the right to be able to take jobs that make them happy. Sometimes people sacrifice their happiness but that doesn't mean everyone has to.
Lmao I wanna see that Eric guy do 80 drawings in a month since he wants to talk out of his ass.
This is my first time commenting but as a beginner artist seeing people act like this towards experienced artists is very scary and quite discouraging, I'm a timid person with anxiety and I don't think I'll be able to deal with stuff like this😅
Its hard getting hated on but the average working adult + people like kaliente know better. All the comments on this vid are so supportive of kelly too. I hope this doesnt discourage you. You shouldnt drop your passion because of some weirdos online.
@@labdjcxn3xythx I won't cuz it brings me so much happiness
Given that her work is all TRADITIONAL? That'll take a hell of a longer time to make than if she were to whip it up in digital art programs. If it was a digital aspect? Maybe it'll be more of a better deal but traditional wise? Hell no. With that work and how expensive her tools of the trade can get? That's a no bueno situation. And it makes it worse when non-artists chime in and don't understand what it truly takes to make pieces like what artists like her can make.
People just see a big number of money and don't think any further. It really just shows how these people know nothing about art and fairly paid expenses, if they were the ones taking this offer they would regret it fast. Sure you can do it half-assed but besides the immense hours of research, trial and error, you will also need to deal with an entitled client that want expert work for 3x below minimum wage. Be ready for constant revisions, a snarky attitude and a whole lot of your time wasted.
Yikes, they want 80 drawings for 4k,thats 50$ a piece.. and people don't see anything wring with that ?
Tarot cards are usually so beautiful withs nice details, id imagine just one one be 200 on the very lowest.
It's so sad to see she is getting hate for not taking a deal that is not good for her in anyway at all. its like they don't understand people have lives , other commitments, AND u should have time to relax and some fun in there too. whole things is just super sad..
After taxes, cost of supplies and overhead, the artist is very likely to be losing money overall at that rate, especially with potential opportunity cost. They'd be better off taking all the upfront risk themselves, making the deck with art they'll own in the end (and can sell, potentially at 4k on one piece alone), printing and selling those decks. They're bringing 100% of the value and the commissioner's offer simply doesn't reflect that. Barely offsetting cost is just not enough remuneration to obtain ownership of another persons time, effort and expression.
Yeah plus the commissioner retains all rights, meaning the artist only gets the one and done payment, while they can continue to sell the art, tarot, and probably other merch from it like stickers, buttons, shirts.. Yeah HECK NO. That's minimum $20k. MINIMUM.
It's definitely sad how much this artist is being bullied for not wanting to be exploited.
People are completely ignoring the time, effort, costs for materials, research, check-ins, and any other requirements per piece. Just because she needs money.
Imagine this same logic was applied to a contractor. "I want you to build a subdivision for this cool $4000, expenses on you."
Heck, offering someone $4000 to build a single house would be an abysmal offer.
Someone struggling to pay bills or eat shouldn't mean that they deserve to make less to work twice as hard... oh, that's depressing. I just accidently described capitalism. . . I'm gonna need a minute.
4:56 lynn is absolutely a scab
LITERALLY LMAOO
This is literally what every high value freelancer follows, not just artists. How are people so oblivious, why would a great artist or any other skilled person take less for their work.
I’ve done 50$ per illustration before: but the big difference was, it was emergency commissions (cause I got triple charged for an class which put me in the negatives and I’m in a country with a bank with crazy overdraft fees and had no overdraft protection, yikes) and my first time doing commissions seriously. So, acknowledging my need for quantity over quality comms at that moment, and the fact that I had far less experience doing commissioned work than artists offering at higher rates than me, I set a low ball price.
I don’t regret doing that, at all. It was needed at the time, it taught me a lot about the commission process, and I gained enough experience doing it that I felt comfortable charging higher in future, non-emergency situations.
50 dollars was really low, but the thing is, I was the one who set that rate and decided the value as was necessary for the situation.
If someone came into my DMs valuing my work at 50 as opposed to me essentially holding a sale at 50 so I could cover overdraft, I would definitely decline.
I may not know anything about tarot cards but one thing I know for sure as an artist is that 4000 dollars for 80 fully rendered illustrations is crazy to even offer. The thing is 4000 is a lot but not enough to for few months of rent even enough for other necessities.
tarot cards are a passion project thing for the most part. they arent all super detailed but thats keeping in mind that even more abstract or simple ones are done because the artist wants a personal take on the deck and knows they can manage to sell it. i tried to and managed to make a design for every card as a personal project in highschool, it was a lot of effort and i still feel a bit upset with how i managed the minor arcana. im not about to start posting the old work ever since i dont have even the sway to sell anything at all let alone a deck of cards.
i cant imagine someone who understands how much symbolism goes into tarot cards unironically thinking a rate like that is okay, coming up with consistent often times personal themes (something that feels like the heart of non-waite decks) that dont contridict or muddy meanings takes so much effort that minimum wage doesnt even feel realistic. not unless the person commissoning has a solid layout for themes really, i doubt someone trying to cheapskate it cares that much
The big issue here is that people dont consider what the particular artist who got the offer, uses per painting in the style the commissioner wanted. I can crank out 80 cards in a day, or two hours, but I'm quite its not the type the commissioner wanted. I think that's the disconnect, which ofc is typical of twitter, short form content to get everyone misunderstand each other, and then fight for maximum engagement to sell ad spots to people. LOL.
As a thought experiment, you'd have to push out one card in 4 hours, to get 12.50$/h. Doing anything fully colored and thought out, in 4 hours doesnt sound like its gonna be that high quality work, espessially if there's an expectation of any back and forth with the commissioner, reviews etc.
7:06 watercolour takes alot longer because dry time of every layer of shading/ colour so about a day at least for an image
I have attempted to draw a whole tarot card deck multiple times. I have given up multiple times because it is DRAINING. If you're doing both Major and Minor arcana, that's 80ish cards. 4K for that much physical and mental labor is WILD all things considered.
Idk where kelly lives but in california 4k BARELY covers rent for a small studio apt for two months with no groceries or gas. She might even be married and have kids and a mortgage. People dont realize if you take this job even if youre desperate you ABSOLUTELY screw yourself up the wazoo later down the line. On one hand, you keep working after the money has run out and go into debt as your bills accumulate. Maybe you pick up a second gig but you are overworking yourself and you are still working on a fulltime commission job that is not paying your rent. On the other hand, a better job comes up and you break the contract midway through and you have to return part/all of the 4k plus pay a contract break fee. There is NO POINT in taking a job like this unless you were living for free with your parents.
People have to think about the long term consequences this kind of job does to someone that doesnt live with their parents.
Rider-Waite is the most popular deck of tarot cards. They aren’t basic cards. Even if you worked on one card per week, it would take 80 weeks. Well over a year. The offer is ridiculous and well below minimum wage. The person who made the offer probably saw her other tweet about not being able to make rent and thought she would jump at it. 😢
I don't usually comment but this genuinely made me mad. Four thousand for EIGHTY CARDS? And within a year is even worse imo. You're asking this of a single mom who most likely has a LOT of other things to do. You're taking time and resources away for a huge ton of work and only giving her 4,000 for a year? And then SHE is criticized for not taking such an insulting offer? Artists are to be respected and trying to give them so little for so much is just gross. I feel so bad for her.
.... but also you know these people aren't artists because they don't have a single issue with the price included the copyright to each illustration. Like it should add at least 200 bucks per illustration to the price of the illustrations themselves so even at 25 bucks per piece it would have to be 18'000 dollars MINIMUM. (225x80)
Because there are people who sell their art for 25 bucks (they're 100% devaluting themselves but let's pretend they don't). So admitting that they went to someone in their price range 4000 dollars would still be 14000 dollars short for the value of the pieces they want to commission.
for. an. artist. that. asks. 25. dollars. per. drawing.
And you won't find cheaper than that. (maybe they'd sell the copyright at 150 so 14000 which is still 10k more than what proposed but NO ONE WOULD GO LOWER unless they're a child who doesn't understand what it even means & if that's the case then you're exploiting a minor)
I'm guessing that illustration gotta be HD so that's gonna be 1 week worth 350dpi on at least 6.98 x 12.1cm, 30 hour week illustrations per card. Unless you know someone in South East Asia who can draw that fast, that consistent, that stylized, and that cheap - then good luck.
For a $4000 pay in a year, worth of work without holidays, that's just a fifth of American minimum living wage iirc and certainly not worth the price. Heck, just commission a VTuber model at this point than a Tarot deck... or half the commission for the "reversed tarots" doesn't strictly need a separate illustration. It's still way too cheap though.
All of this might not account for corrections too which can double the workload.
Average artist I knew draw at a speed of 1 image per week on average with corrections. That's without considering sick days for their wrists.
If anyone willing to pick it then so be it, just be warned that no wonder they rejected it.
Im glad the person didn't take the deal and be a scab against their fellow workers; i have some workers solidarity respect for that move
I have cheap commissions open, there are other artist with cheap commissions open, don't go under paying established artists when there is a lot of us trying to build up our businesses who would happily do it.
As dumb as it sounds it is true! My commissions are 3$ for an icon and 5$ for a full body. If you want cheap art look for people who are trying to kick start their business, especially if it comes with exposure.
10:33 "done in a month" Wild how this dude thinks artists can finish 80 illustration in one month. 💀💀💀
The fact thwt people can't comprehend that work that's not just a one off personal commission or adoptable that's 80 fully made wnd renrered pieces cut and sized and edited after probably by the artist is going to cost q lot because you're also selling the rights and basically 80 slots of freelance work that could've been taken up by other clients in the time it eould take that long, is disappointing. Especially that gross comment about taking 80 hours for work. Fully rendered art is hard to master! And if you're traditional you're taking extra time to correct it. How incredibly frustrating.
I saw this! People were so mad, both ways. Someone said "you don't charge for you time, only the results"????
Wow 50$ a card and in one year??? I have literally been planning this sort of project for myself, not even for others to see or anything and I 100% know its going to take me several years to even get partly done. Just holy shit thats so cheap. Yes tarot cards are all VERY SPECIFIC like each one is super intricate and specific to the reason the card would appear in the deck. Even doing the suits as super simple art its still insane. Non-artists/ hobby folks need to know its an insane undertaking.
ALSO OMFG TO GIVE UP THE RIGHTS??? NOPE THATS LIKE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ALONE! What the hell is wrong with people holy hell.
To be honest, $4,000 could be feasible if there’s a common layout for every card and you’re using 3D, especially if they don't expect high-quality work or ultra-detailed images. One of my first serious commissions was a set of 52 cards for $5,000, and it took me just one week to complete the entire project, from the initial rough sketches to the final client review. Of course, I would charge more if I had to do it again, but hey, at least it paid the bills.
Well, I guess it also depends on media and technique. Even when woodburning should be more expensive, when I sold it in conventions, I normally used designed templates and flat colors in my work, so I didn't worked that much. So I sold those quite cheap and in more volume. Now that I domostly ink and paper, that should be cheaper, but since I are unique works that must make one at a time, I sell them more casual but also more expensive. I dunno the difficulties and perks of 3d modeling, but at least for big-format aquarelle (her media) it wouldn't be costly.
@@potblessed 3D can significantly speed up your workflow when combined with digital painting. You don't have to spend as much time thinking about perspective or shading, for example. Texturing is also quite easy. If you need to work on a complex perspective (like fisheye), you can essentially work in an orthogonal view and then click a button during rendering to achieve the desired effect. Imagine trying to do that with watercolor ; it will be painful.
However, in the end, the most important thing is not the commission itself but the brief you receive before starting a project. Sometimes I refuse to work on a project because the brief is unclear. But yes, her medium doesn't fit this kind of commission.
The imagery on the cards matters as the imagery has meaning beyond the basic meanings of the cards
She’s part of my art bubble amd i saw this post. I didn’t even read the comments because i just thought yeah man obviously that is a ridiculous ask. I would take almost the whole commission price for one single card, because this is what my time is worth and what is the decent industry pay rate. I would also assume one traditional illustration like that takes around 40-60 hours, including sketches, changes and research.
Feral_Forest is an AI bro which explains why she devaluies art so much.
50bucks per card, the audacity
Also giving the 'Well its a JOB.. just do minimum wage.. gosh..' vibes too from the comments. Like damn. Just because we get minimum wage doesn't mean its livable wages. We've been fighting for livable wages for customer service jobs for decades now. I'll finally hit $15/hr.. next January... it was voted on.. over 8 years ago by the way.
i think that if this artist wants to take the job, just give it to them, sure we may not agree that it’s fair but that is very well their choice no? again i think it’s fucked not getting good pay but that is up to the artist themselves if they’re willing to accept it or not we can’t gatekeep that from them just cus we disagree imo
to be fair, if another artist wants to take on that job, let them? if they consider their time and art to be worth that much, then let them. it feels a bit odd to almost gatekeep the info of the buyer.
artists are allowed to charge whatever they want, even if they may not seem eye to eye with others. whether they charge $50 for a fullbody or $10, is up to the artist themself.
let artists have BOTH cheap and expensive commissions.
If someone gave you only 4k to build the foundation of a house with 2 rooms WITH working heaters attached would you take it? No right? Its the same thing that that dude was asking of her. No one is desperate enough to make 4k with that amount of time sweat and tears but into it either. Plus having to show them works in progress and having to redo everything they want changed is unreasonable. Non artist should be told like that if they wanna stick their noses in where it doesnt belong
well the difference is a house is important, art is useless
i think it would be totally different if the images were thumbnail size and very low rez, but from the sounds of it that's not what they were asked to make. the client wanted full resolution artwork to then shrink down onto tarot cards which is a much different ask. many artists that do a tarot set also tend to sell the card art at full size on posters, shirts, etc. I dont think that giving the artist a proper amount is them being ungrateful or stuck up. if the client wanted just mini drawings that are no bigger then like a discord pfp and would only be used for the cards then maybe 4k is fine, but even then using low rez art and printing it on premium card stock looks shitty usually. it takes a good amount of tinkering and adjusting to get digital art (or even mass produced traditional art) ready for print. and to also not get any sort residual agreement is also quite predatory. anything where you take away ownership from the creator, deserves a pretty sizable upcharge imo. good on her for standing up for herself and also entertaining the unaware users responding with ignorance when she didnt have to.
I think the price might be different depending on where the artist lives, like maybe their minimal wage is much lower so this amount of money is enought for them, so that might be the reason that other artist wanted to accept the deal but idk I could be wrong cause I didn't check where they live
its low key kinda cringe for non artist to even talk back at us. you have no skill and creativity what do you want? ( TALKING ABT ANY ART HERE MUSIC MAKING INCL. SINCE THIS COULD HAPPEN FOR MAKING MUSIC 2 . example: play at our 3 day concert ever day u get paid 50 dollars whole. yes ik its not the same i'm simply talking about getting underpaid. others might be like: ez like 9 songs for 50 dollars... but rlly u have to learn all the songs . if its a really skilled and popular band espechially since thats like the artist ) its really wierd to even think thats a good ideo when the person who knows more about it clearly says its not. its probaply also the people who see no problem with ai, since "if you put your art on the internet they can take it" no they cant. this is simply disgusting.
Super random, but your overshirt looks so comfortable *^*
People have no idea what a job is and need to touch grass. You get paid by an hourly wage.
50$ per card is not an hourly wage, thus not even close to a livable wage on top of that it would be straight working hell to do all 80 cards in one year.
To put in perspective I only get paid a little over 12$ at my job currently and I only work about 6-7 hours. I get 70-80$ per workday. It barely allows ends to meet where I live. 50$ for her to work in overdrive on 80 pieces is a freaking SCAM. Ain't worth jack to touch that project especially at her art level. She's worth more.
I had to do 15 pieces for an art class in highschool I took and I hated it. Actually completely dissuaded me from ever touching art schools in the future too, literally can watch art teachers here on YT and get education for free without feeling unneeded pressure and stress that our education system brings to students. You don't even get paid in school for the art you make lol. Never worth it to deadline multiple pieces like that unless someone is paying HELLA money for it. If I'm gonna work overdrive on multiple pieces and suffer mentally for it then I need good incentives to work.
even if u were a genius and could make one card a day that would still be about 1300$ per month which is such a scam like imagine taking 3 days for an illustration, thats only ≈450$ a month like at this point i‘d just ask to be homeless.
the fact adults are hating on this subject too is wild. up this point i thought i was only talking to teenagers whenever they got mad a topic, they haven't mastered or want to dvelve into...
i say the artist make the prices if she want that much what is absolutely fair cause she is a watercolor drawer its completely say to no i dont take this deal accept my prices or go its wild that other artist bullying her for that. Traditional u cant just make undo and u draw it again or others u must probably begin from new then
Sharing my own experiences with exploitation of artist from non artist.
There once a drama where a non artist complains that Furry Artist in the US charges up to 1000$ for an art piece. But you can gain the same piece for 25$ overseas in Asia for example.
But the thing is that they don't know that other country currency is lower than that of the US Dollar. Like in my country alone, 25$ can buy you two weeks worth of groceries for a person.
But even that amount doesn't gives the artist a living wage. And artist that set such price usually are still new and in need of steady client.
This makes me a little worried for a commission I did awhile back, was 65 deck of cards, 20$ usd a hour coming to a little over 2.7k $ got it done in 3 months. They were going to be sold on their online store, and they'd have full rights to the art since I'm a freelancer under contract with them. I wouldn't be paid anything more if the deck of cards sold. (since then I don't even know what they did with the art I made for them...) Originally I did it because I was hoping I could get a set of the cards for free lol. I've been working for them for 10 years now, but won't go more into detail, because I worry I'll just come off as stupid if I find out I've been getting under paid for this long without realizing it...
It's way past midnight,I should be sleeping yet here I am.
Love to see the supportive comments here 👍
not taking the commission is fair
another artist asking for the commission is fair
not giving the other artist the opportunity is fair but not good faith
giving the criticism that beggars cant be chosers is fair.
but
mocking someone for having hard times is not.
to be fair the person who agreed to the $4000 price might be from outside America or the west in general to them it's a lot of money like for me i would take it because to me it would be nearly R80000 (south africa) which more the minimum wage here, here i can't expect to be paid more than 200 rand for commissions which is nearly $20 per illustration
I think it's a bit unfair towards those who want to do it for less. People are forgetting that USA isn't the only country. If someone says they need at least 50k a year that doesn't mean someone else is living in poverty with 15k a year. That's a valid pay and gives you comfortable life in many countries. Third world needs even less money. So it seems unfair. If someone would offer me a job for 10$/h i would be more than happy to do it because living costs here are not that high as in LA. In other words people from different ends of the world getting 10k/year, 20k/year and 50k/year could have same quality of life.
Mass production has created a delusional customer base.
You pay so little for that thing that took countless hours to design because theres 3MILLION COPIES of them pushed out at 2000 in AN HOUR.
Thats where the cost effectuality comes from.
When you ask a single person to make a unique object, you’re personally fronting the cost for that R&D project! So instead of some big wig paying 300k to commission her and then reprint millions for resale like store bought tarot decks do to be affordable, you have to pay that 300k yourself for that personal right!
You think you can ask a construction crew to build you a freaking house for cheaper than a condo apartment purchase?
Fat chance! Productions only cheap when its en masse, solo projects cost as much to start as big commercial ones, quit being a begging entrepreneur.
alix is not even an artist. what is she hoohaing about. =_=
For the others that is asking for the artist to send THEM the job offer instead, if you want the job that badly, go ask the company for it.
Theres a reason you're not the one chosen by the company cus your style is NOT what the company wants and not up to par as kelly's work. So feel free to bring your portfolio up to the company and offer your own work to them for that low wage then.
I want to be honest: we should avoid Tweddit like was that sketchy part of town where you don't go if you have no business there and you try to get out fast if you have business there!
Just describe the project to the artist & ask for a quote.