Before I started playing this I was hoping to see a comment that said something like 'finally a documentary that just talks about the games.' Yours was the first one. :(
I know that's the sympathetic line last few decades but Joe did know, did take money and if you look at the boxscores of the early WS games, esp game 1 when they were all in on the fix, he was terrible and on purpose. As the series went on, there was less enthusiasm for it so besides Lefty and Eddie, most of the others started playing harder and so Joe's avg and performance looked legit
Comiskey knew a helluva lot more than anyone lets on. By no means, was he an innocent victim! If Joe Jackson went to management and said he didn't want to play and there was a lot of other chatter - Comiskey and management knew what was happening, and YET they chose to do NOTHING. I'd bet a lot of owners back then knew it was going on, lots of gambling and betting, but because it was part of the culture, I'm sure they figured they'd turn a blind eye to it. Hell, the owners may have very well been betting on their own teams too.
Also @54:14 - @54:35, a few other points to add: Chick Gandil drove in the only run in game one that Chicago scored. Gandil drove in *two* of the three runs in the third contest. The two-run single, which scored Jackson and Happy Felsch, broke a 0-0 tie. So it's the winning RBI plus insurance. Gandil drove in the *winning run* in the sixth contest in the top of the tenth. Incidentally, Buck Weaver was on third after Joe Jackson bunted him there. Not an RBI, but it sure helped Gandil get one. Jackson was stranded at third *three* times in the second contest. Gandil stole second and was also in scoring position in the top of the fourth, and Swede Risberg had the count 3-1 in his favour. So Chicago nearly loaded the bases. Game one was thrown (after all, the White Sox lost it 9-1). In the second contest, Chicago's two runs (they lost 4-2) scored as a result of two Cincinnati errors. They also lost games four and five, 2-0 and 5-0. So, of the four RBIs Chicago White Sox RBIs in the first five contest, Chick Gandil had three of them. Gandil put this whole sorry affair together (and is believed to have stiffed his teammates, taking most of the cash for himself and buying a nice house in the off-season, not even bothering to return in 1920, since he had no more need for money). Doesn't it sound odd that none of the other White Sox players, the clean ones plus Buck Weaver, drove in any runs other than Eddie Collins (who had just one) and Ray Schalk? Schalk drove in Swede Risberg in the third contest to make the final score 3-0 for Chicago, after the shortstop hit a triple. Gandil's RBI in the first contest tied it 1-1, so it was an important run, at the time. Weaver came up to bat seven times with a man on in the first six games (one of whom was in scoring position) and didn't collect an RBI. He also flashed a hit-and-run sign to Eddie Collins in the T1 of game one, and completely missed a pitch, which resulted in Collins beaing DOA @ 2B. In all, Weaver came up to bat with sixteen men on base, of those six in scoring position. He never drove in a single run. Weaver even hit into a double play in the seven contest. So even in the games where the White Sox were trying to win, Buck had no luck driving in men. Weaver's triple in game five was with two out in the bottom of the ninth and the score 5-0 for the Reds. Eddie Collins also struggled. He wasn't getting hits, period. Through six games, he was 2-22 (.091). It was only in the last two contests where Eddie collected five hits (no RBIs, however) to boast his batting average to .226. Collins had hit better than .400 in three Fall Classics, including .409 against New York in 1917. So obviously, a lot of other White Sox players were struggling in the clutch. Schalk and Collins had three runs batted in between them in eight games. The rest of the non-fixers had no RBIs in the Fall Classic against Cincinnati. Jackson, by the way, also reached on an error three times, including once in game one (and he eventually scored), and with Eddie Collins on second in the fourth contest (Collins made it to third). So some of his failures at the plate still resulted him reaching. Remarkably enough, the Reds had Jackson hung up on the bases twice and made two errors. So Jackson caused Cincinnati to make five errors in eight games.
Jackson and Rose do not belong, and, they're never getting in. Jackson admitted during Grand Jury questioning that he accepted $5,000 payment. Case closed. The full transcript has been available online for more than 20 years.
Dick Allen has a legitimate argument. Jackson and Rose? eff them. You want to make the Hall? Here is a couple of suggestions? Don't throw a World Series. Don't violate the one rule, repeatedly, that comes with a lifetime ban. Pretty simple.
Since this documentary, much more information has become available which was not available to Eliot Asinof when he wrote his book "Eight Men Out" in 1963 and the 1988 John Sayles movie of the same title. Look up Eight Myths Out by Jacob Pomrenke for an updated and more accurate assessment of the 1919 World Series scandal.
I love eight myths but the problem I have with it is Pomrenke’s assertion it was all cooked up by the players and not the Gangsters which is according to player testimony back then. No player back then would dare name a gangster / gambler. Your talking 1919/20 Chicago. Killing a baseball player back then would have meant nothing to these guys. I think Pomrenke underestimates the power of Organized Crime of the time and their reach.
I've read that. There's some evidence that Weaver was more involved than what Asinof wrote (Eddie Collins thought Weaver wasn't trying at key moments in the 1919 World Series and the next year, too).
@54:04, is actually not true. Jackson did *not* lead all hitters in batting average (.375) in the 1919 World Series. The Reds' Ivey Wingo hit .571, and had enough H + BB (7) to qualify. Check out "World Series Leaders" over at BR.
So many inaccuracies look at the salary cards in the baseball hall of fame the white Sox players were paid in the top 5 if not higher for their positions. Joe Jackson was the 2nd highest paid player in the league only behind Ty Cobb Eddie Ciccorte? Was the 2nd highest paid pitcher in the league only behind Walter Johnson.
I always wondered if the Reds had any idea the fix was on during the series. Or if they thought they had won a dirty series. When the scandal surfaced.
I don't agree with it myself, but until it becomes a bigger problem, nothing will change. Granted there was that scare with Ohtani which to be honest, there's stuff that they didn't tell people on that. And then you had that player from the Padres get banned. Eventually it's going to become a bigger problem but at the same time, the "integrity" of baseball isn't as highly regarded now as it was then
Funny how many of the reasons for the scandal outlined in this show have been debunked in the 2020s. For instance, Comiskey paid his players the same if not better, than most owners. The players were also making almost eight times what the average worker was making at the time.
That's interesting...Swede Risbergs son mentioning his dad played in blackface...tried to pass himself off as black to earn a buck😮 That exchange at 48:15 between Cobb and Jackson hit me harder than I expected😔
As kay x says Comiskey was the cheapest bastard at that time in baseball all teams had the players uniforms cleaned except Comiskey AND Screwed Ciccotte in the last game took out with a 3-1 lead against Detroit and lost 10-9 And Ciccotte spit in Comiskey face..... ....
And just the because 1919 is the biggest and most famous betting scandal, it wasn't the 1st or the last. games were on the take all the time back then, but it was done quieter and with less people involved. Too many people in on it was the problem with 1919.
I miss espn classic it was great I wish they would bring it back
Yeah I do to.
Man those commercials bring back memories lol 😢
Classic Classic Sports was the right up there with the Biography Channel and the History Channel when it wasn’t about scumbags owning pawnshops.
You can never find a word about the 1919 Reds. The first champion for one of the oldest franchises in baseball history and its like it never happened.
Before I started playing this I was hoping to see a comment that said something like 'finally a documentary that just talks about the games.' Yours was the first one. :(
Not to mention Rousch is a HOFer people generally forgets about even for a Dead Ball era star.
As a society we usually focus on the bad things and not the good
Because their championship wasn't earned. 1919 reds might have been great but they weren't legitimate champions.
@@kumarg3598reds were the better team and would have won regardless
1:51 I wanna play baseball in 1919! That sounds fun as hell.
Shoeless Joe Jackson SHOULD be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, in my opinion!
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Definitely
I know that's the sympathetic line last few decades but Joe did know, did take money and if you look at the boxscores of the early WS games, esp game 1 when they were all in on the fix, he was terrible and on purpose. As the series went on, there was less enthusiasm for it so besides Lefty and Eddie, most of the others started playing harder and so Joe's avg and performance looked legit
True!!!
shouldn't have thrown the World Series then.
"Eight men out" great movie
Agreed!!!
The guy who played Ring Lardner was the guy who produced the movie, John Sayles. He looked like a dead ringer for Lardner.
@@dustylover100 I don't think he produced it. He wrote the screenplay and directed it which is even more impressive!
Comiskey knew a helluva lot more than anyone lets on. By no means, was he an innocent victim! If Joe Jackson went to management and said he didn't want to play and there was a lot of other chatter - Comiskey and management knew what was happening, and YET they chose to do NOTHING.
I'd bet a lot of owners back then knew it was going on, lots of gambling and betting, but because it was part of the culture, I'm sure they figured they'd turn a blind eye to it. Hell, the owners may have very well been betting on their own teams too.
Also @54:14 - @54:35, a few other points to add:
Chick Gandil drove in the only run in game one that Chicago scored.
Gandil drove in *two* of the three runs in the third contest. The two-run single, which scored Jackson and Happy Felsch, broke a 0-0 tie. So it's the winning RBI plus insurance.
Gandil drove in the *winning run* in the sixth contest in the top of the tenth. Incidentally, Buck Weaver was on third after Joe Jackson bunted him there. Not an RBI, but it sure helped Gandil get one.
Jackson was stranded at third *three* times in the second contest. Gandil stole second and was also in scoring position in the top of the fourth, and Swede Risberg had the count 3-1 in his favour. So Chicago nearly loaded the bases.
Game one was thrown (after all, the White Sox lost it 9-1). In the second contest, Chicago's two runs (they lost 4-2) scored as a result of two Cincinnati errors. They also lost games four and five, 2-0 and 5-0.
So, of the four RBIs Chicago White Sox RBIs in the first five contest, Chick Gandil had three of them. Gandil put this whole sorry affair together (and is believed to have stiffed his teammates, taking most of the cash for himself and buying a nice house in the off-season, not even bothering to return in 1920, since he had no more need for money). Doesn't it sound odd that none of the other White Sox players, the clean ones plus Buck Weaver, drove in any runs other than Eddie Collins (who had just one) and Ray Schalk? Schalk drove in Swede Risberg in the third contest to make the final score 3-0 for Chicago, after the shortstop hit a triple.
Gandil's RBI in the first contest tied it 1-1, so it was an important run, at the time.
Weaver came up to bat seven times with a man on in the first six games (one of whom was in scoring position) and didn't collect an RBI. He also flashed a hit-and-run sign to Eddie Collins in the T1 of game one, and completely missed a pitch, which resulted in Collins beaing DOA @ 2B.
In all, Weaver came up to bat with sixteen men on base, of those six in scoring position. He never drove in a single run. Weaver even hit into a double play in the seven contest. So even in the games where the White Sox were trying to win, Buck had no luck driving in men. Weaver's triple in game five was with two out in the bottom of the ninth and the score 5-0 for the Reds.
Eddie Collins also struggled. He wasn't getting hits, period. Through six games, he was 2-22 (.091). It was only in the last two contests where Eddie collected five hits (no RBIs, however) to boast his batting average to .226. Collins had hit better than .400 in three Fall Classics, including .409 against New York in 1917. So obviously, a lot of other White Sox players were struggling in the clutch. Schalk and Collins had three runs batted in between them in eight games. The rest of the non-fixers had no RBIs in the Fall Classic against Cincinnati.
Jackson, by the way, also reached on an error three times, including once in game one (and he eventually scored), and with Eddie Collins on second in the fourth contest (Collins made it to third). So some of his failures at the plate still resulted him reaching. Remarkably enough, the Reds had Jackson hung up on the bases twice and made two errors. So Jackson caused Cincinnati to make five errors in eight games.
Joe Jackson , Pete Rose & Dick Allen belong in the HOF
Jackson and Rose do not belong, and, they're never getting in. Jackson admitted during Grand Jury questioning that he accepted $5,000 payment. Case closed. The full transcript has been available online for more than 20 years.
Nope.
Damn right they do.
I believe so too
Dick Allen has a legitimate argument. Jackson and Rose? eff them. You want to make the Hall? Here is a couple of suggestions? Don't throw a World Series. Don't violate the one rule, repeatedly, that comes with a lifetime ban. Pretty simple.
Since this documentary, much more information has become available which was not available to Eliot Asinof when he wrote his book "Eight Men Out" in 1963 and the 1988 John Sayles movie of the same title. Look up Eight Myths Out by Jacob Pomrenke for an updated and more accurate assessment of the 1919 World Series scandal.
I love eight myths but the problem I have with it is Pomrenke’s assertion it was all cooked up by the players and not the Gangsters which is according to player testimony back then. No player back then would dare name a gangster / gambler. Your talking 1919/20 Chicago. Killing a baseball player back then would have meant nothing to these guys. I think Pomrenke underestimates the power of Organized Crime of the time and their reach.
I've read that. There's some evidence that Weaver was more involved than what Asinof wrote (Eddie Collins thought Weaver wasn't trying at key moments in the 1919 World Series and the next year, too).
Wow, a triple hamburger for 1.99. Lol, that was the highlight for me.
When ESPN did sports and not social justice.
Not LeBronSPN
@54:04, is actually not true. Jackson did *not* lead all hitters in batting average (.375) in the 1919 World Series. The Reds' Ivey Wingo hit .571, and had enough H + BB (7) to qualify. Check out "World Series Leaders" over at BR.
I hope they upload more of these
Ironically Rose played for the Reds
Any Blue Jays games from 1999 to 2000?
What did Dick Allen do?
My Gator Grip broke.
So many inaccuracies look at the salary cards in the baseball hall of fame the white Sox players were paid in the top 5 if not higher for their positions. Joe Jackson was the 2nd highest paid player in the league only behind Ty Cobb Eddie Ciccorte? Was the 2nd highest paid pitcher in the league only behind Walter Johnson.
Shoeless Joe MUST be allowed InTo the Baseball HoF
why? He threw the Series. Eff him.
The Reds "won" the 1919 series. Ironically, Pete Rose (red mgr) got banned because of betting/gambling as well.
I always wondered if the Reds had any idea the fix was on during the series. Or if they thought they had won a dirty series. When the scandal surfaced.
19:15 yes you forgot to mention they were totally useless yards as he never won a f*cking thing with them.
Today. FanDuel, MGM bet, Fox. Bet. Is ok?? Hypocrisy. THEY ALL GAMBLE.
You have a link to back up that claim? Or just baseless speculation?
@@bauerj3398 4U? No. You'll understand when U grow up.
I don't agree with it myself, but until it becomes a bigger problem, nothing will change. Granted there was that scare with Ohtani which to be honest, there's stuff that they didn't tell people on that. And then you had that player from the Padres get banned. Eventually it's going to become a bigger problem but at the same time, the "integrity" of baseball isn't as highly regarded now as it was then
Funny how many of the reasons for the scandal outlined in this show have been debunked in the 2020s. For instance, Comiskey paid his players the same if not better, than most owners. The players were also making almost eight times what the average worker was making at the time.
That's interesting...Swede Risbergs son mentioning his dad played in blackface...tried to pass himself off as black to earn a buck😮
That exchange at 48:15 between Cobb and Jackson hit me harder than I expected😔
Training day commercial lehendary
As kay x says Comiskey was the cheapest bastard at that time in baseball all teams had the players uniforms cleaned except Comiskey AND Screwed Ciccotte in the last game took out with a 3-1 lead against Detroit and lost 10-9 And Ciccotte spit in Comiskey face..... ....
Rigged for Hyman Roth the lanskys the sheer profit of rigging the over and under the wind and losses the points is absurd
And just the because 1919 is the biggest and most famous betting scandal, it wasn't the 1st or the last. games were on the take all the time back then, but it was done quieter and with less people involved. Too many people in on it was the problem with 1919.