Ellen, An Imperfect Lesbian Icon: A Deep Dive
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- Since I know you all love a deep dive... here we have it: Ellen DeGeneres- is she really the lesbian icon society has deemed her to be? In this video I discuss Ellen's career and the highs, lows and controversies in between. Strap in, because we're going icon hunting!
00:00 Intro
03:47 Being gay is illegal (or: Ellen’s early career)
07:18 The Puppy Episode (or: Ellen comes out)
11:59 Ellen “Degenerate” (or: the homophobic backlash)
15:51 Changing the public perception of gay people (or: The Ellen DeGeneres Show)
20:45 Being kind… kind of (or: Ellen gets very, very rich)
29:00 Can we say gay now? (or: Ellen’s legacy and how far we’ve come)
33:40 Wrapping up
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This definitely speaks to the idea that we can be grateful for one action or stance a person takes without considering them a role model.
Hooray for nuance!
exactly. i think it’s so ridiculous that liberals and left leaning public figures are expected to be held to this standard of perfection. it’s dehumanizing and it’s a set up because it’s an impossible standard to live up to. right leaning public figures can behave any way they want, because they’re not “virtue signaling” so apparently it doesn’t matter what they do or how they treat people…because according to the right they’re not “pretending” to be good people.
Exactly. Another example of how people can do heroic actions yet still be a relatively bad person in their day to day actions would be Gandhi. While he did amazing things for India, he also was an awful husband and father and rather misogynistic. MLK also left a powerful legacy, but had several affairs during his marriage. Granted Ellen is in no way as important as these figures, we do have to acknowledge that she played a pivotal role in making middle class white women accepting of gay and lesbian folks. I would probably put her possibly in the same category as Jackie Robinson (as a key celebrity that was pushing for acceptance and served as an icon of a changing world).
Watching the broadcast of "The Puppy Episode" was the moment I realised I was (and still am!) a lesbian. I was in a relationship with a man at the time, I was 20, had assumed I was bisexual before then. I'm in Ireland, and in my 47 years, the following changes have happened:
Abortion was criminalised
Divorce was legalised
Condoms became available for purchase without prescription and for under-18s
Homosexuality was decriminalised
Same-sex marriage was legalised
Trans self-ID was legalised
Abortion was decriminalised
All but the first in that list happened when I was a teen or older, and politically aware and active. My parents are still alive (were among the first to legally divorce in Ireland!), and have welcomed each of these changes with joy and optimism. I'm still waiting for disability rights, but we're working on it!
It was so funny, and kinda painful to watch. I was one of those who sat in front of the TV watching the live broadcast.
And the US is poised to ruin our children and make us trans adults illegal. The sin is what they are doing not what we are doing.
But then I don’t believe in “sin”.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Good for you honey
I remember the founding of the first gay and lesbian society at UCG (now University of Galway). And the day they handed out leaflets with abortion information which were gone in minutes because they contained a condom taped to the last page! 🤣❤ This was in the early 90s.
I'm an older millennial and I remember my family watching the sitcom UP UNTIL Ellen's character came out and then my parents banned the show in the family house. I was very young so I didn't understand what coming out, or even what a lesbian is. But it did bring enough attention to the topic for me to understand in my teens that "I will not tell my parents I am bi, like women, and date women". And I never did tell them. But all my siblings know and always supported it.
❤
Yeah, my family watched it until she came out, too.
Samesies, suddenly my religious parents no longer thought it was funny but harmful. They chose to barely address why we no longer watched it though so I just inferred it was gayness.
That was my experience when Willow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer got a girlfriend. I remember my father who loved the show went off about how gross it was and a bunch of religious stuff. Right then I was like "ok never tell him about my interest in girls"
The true gay icons are people like you and your wife! Everyday people who live your lives day to day! You deal with the haters while living your lives! I am not gay, but I see the real heroes! Those of you who deal with hate while raising your families, showing others that love is love , and like the rest of us, putting one foot in front of the other!
+
Isn’t she great?
@@ClaireLeslie-eu4tl I love her! Even with all that has been thrown at her, she comes on and makes us smile, laugh and are able to understand more!
yes!! but that didn't work without social media and without a basic acceptance :)
This^^
Ellen’s coming out did open the door for more gay actors and characters on TV. I was a young teen when “The Puppy Episode” came out; I don’t remember watching it, but I did watch her interview on the Oprah Show. It wasn’t until later that the impact of Ellen’s interview hit me. I had to come to terms with my own queerness and figure out that it wasn’t just a ‘white people thing’, first. Folks like Queen Latifah, Da Brat, and Wanda Sykes were infinitely more impactful to me as a Black baby queer…but Ellen did help get the ball rolling.
Oof, as a Black woman, I'm so many that Stonewall was so whitewashed that people now think it was all Pete Buttigeig assimilates who were leading Pride.
@@mxnjones I was so happy when Queen Latifah came out. What a role model for young black queers!
i appreciate the nuance of this video. we can acknowledge all the good ellen has done for the queer community while also acknowledging that she’s not the most wonderful person.
Agreed! I am glad that we are getting to the point when we can have more nuance to this conversation.
As a queer elder, this is spot on. The info & the assessments. She’s grown into a deeply problematic person, but the impact she had cannot be understated…which is why her crap is so bloody disappointing.
I think a good way to put it is that we needed her in the nineties, but we don't really need her anymore
@@larissabrglum3856 regardless of need, it sucks. I also didn’t need help completing my complete comment, thanks. (Frankly, our collective shit isn’t exactly safe, free, & tidy, either. Doesn’t make her or any specific person ‘needed,’ but it certainly wouldn’t have hurt to have her not completely suck.)
@@madonna816 I was contributing my thought on the situation, people tend to do that in comment sections
I've never lost it watching a youtube episode until today. I can not tel you how impactful the mention of older queer folk was. I'm a 56 year old gay man. That really isn't that terribly old. Us ""elder" gay men have survived the HIV/AIDS crisis at its worst, delt with a much more homophobic world yet have survived and often thrived. however we are also invisible. Agism in the queer media is rampant. Referring to a man in his late thirties as "daddy" is an example. As a single person I may as well be made of glass. I have great friends and am active in the community. It can suck being the only single person in the room when everybody around you is coupled. The older queers have so much to offer the young follk. We just aren't often seen. I'd love to see what your thoughts are if/when you do a deep dive into aging while being LGBT+. In fact you can feel free to ask me about it. You rock and thanks!
I'm a few years shy of 40, and ageism has naturally had my attention for many reasons - it's seemed particularly egregious in modern protest movements and the LGBTQIA+ community of late.
You should be, and feel, celebrated and visible.
I'd love to see Jessica make that video, and hope to see and learn from you in it.
Much love to you from a queer ex-whippersnapper. 💜
I'm only 31 and I can see it for myself. Even when I *was* really young, I did think it was weird how many seemingly Adult characters in film and books who were Realizing Their Dreams were all... like, 18, 21, 25 at the latest, and by that point it was considered their last shot. Now that I'm past 30 it's absolutely infuriating how media *and* most online content counts you out and refuses to see you as a sexual being who is still striving for something because you aren't the target demographic for most advertisers - unless it's for specific problems you want to solve so you can look like you ARE in that demographic. It just seems like once you aren't visibly *young*, you are also not of interest, to other people and to the outside world, unless you have influence or authority and even those things still can't buy you *relationships* or real connections to people and to communities. The content that does challenge those attitudes is always spending all its time defending itself for doing so, so it's hard to make the argument that the mere existence of inclusive media counts as proof that most people don't accept the stereotypes, either.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I think about the information gaps that have come along with generational gaps a lot, and it's nice to hear from someone who is not under 35, since again, online content is generally focused on and toward very young people. As a millennial I can say that those of us who grew up on the internet don't know what we don't know, and we typically have no idea what has been forgotten because no one had the time to teach us and we didn't have OR take the time to learn before information overload became our way of life. ❤
I'm a gen xer, and so so I wasn't alive for some of what you talk about, but certainly alive and aware for a lot of it. I remember, for instance, as a child reading the long sexuality article our set of encyclopedia Britannica volumes and there was quite a section Ann sexual deviation. And homosexuality was the first category in that section. Luckily I had parents with several gay friends and had been taught by them that there was nothing abnormal, but even so, reading that article made me question whether being gay was really okay. So awful and so sad.
As a trans performer, I’ve seen directly the seen the positive impact of my visibility as a trans woman. I have a burlesque number-a talking strip about my experiences as a trans burlesque performer-about the positive impact my presence on stage has had on people.
Thank you for your videos and your effort. 💜💜💜
I am 70. Now, I'm actually ACE, but I really never lived with a member of the opposite sex. I married my same sex roommate in 2016. I think she was actually straight, but she never found a man who she was willing to marry, and never got asked because, I think, they thought she was gay. I suspect the reason was she would not put up with a man bossing her around. She also wasn't shy about telling people how she put an attempted rapist in the hospital after he tried to grab her. (She emasculated him or, never mess around with someone with a blind stick.)
Boston marriages ftw
Haha amazing I would have married her too after hearing that story
@@jasminvomwalde7497 learn something new every day, thanks!
I've thankfully never had to use my white cane for that, but it's always an option...
@@hughcaldwell1034 In the class taught at the Blind School on how to use a white cane, the teacher taught the kids what she called "cane-fu." I still have my wife's white cane by the back door. I used to use it to turn on and off the window unit ac before I replaced that ac. My wife didn't need to use a white cane since she never went anywhere if I wasn't driving or, before she came home to work and before I retired, she took transit to work. I would pick her up after she got off. Then I retired and I took her to and from work and to doctor appointments. And she doesn't need it now because... well, she passed in 2022.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s. (Yes, Gen Xer) I have two family members who are gay, one of whom did not survive the AIDS crisis. I ran with the "artsy" crowd in high school, so I had several gay friends and understood that our friend group was a sort of safe little bubble for them in small-ish town middle America. So, yes, I remember what a HUGE deal it was when she came out. I think perhaps that's why learning she had become a total a****** felt like a gut punch. Thank you for providing a great analysis of the trajectory of her career and cultural impact--both positive and negative.
I think Ellen is one of those people I think I would not get along with personally, but am so grateful she blazed a trail with her work. Ellen walked so today's queers can run
Ellen's story also reminds me of Roseanne. That show meant a lot to me as a fat, low income, baby queer. They had multiple episodes and characters referencing gay characters in (sure, sometimes messy, but) supportive ways. Seeing Roseanne Barr herself drink the right wing juice crushed me.
Was the character queer?
@@egg_bun_ Rosanne(the character) herself? no. Though she WAS fat and, uh, GNC in not presenting femininity in the typical way that DID, ime, speak to a lot of queer folks.
@@fthurman that makes a lot of sense. I feel the same way. I remember when I was really young, I saw a fat woman at church with a low ponytail, with plain clothing and no makeup, and that was pretty formative for me.
Same, tho I didn't realize I was gay until the show was done. The path Roseanne has gone down is very disappointing.
*same*
Not related to this episode, I want to thank you for your disability education, specifically on EDS. I have a newish friend who has a disability and I started asking about it one day (she was happy to talk about it) and she was explaining her situation and I said, "Is it like EDS?" Turns out it _is_ EDS and she was pretty suprised I even knew of it.
Obviously it was nice for my friend to be able to speak about it with someone who has at least an awareness and very basic understanding of it. But your education on EDS, less visible disabilities, and the challenges younger people with disabilities have has made me far more compassionate about it. Not that I would ever purposefully be insensitive or dismissive, but ignorance makes people say stupid and thoughtlessly cruel things.
So thank you so much for what you do! It has real impact on real people in sometimes unexpected ways.
Will & Grace was a gem. Bc it embraced the flaws of it's characters as equals and poked fun at all of them as equals. Not that it didn't caricature and stereotype the community. And obviously it wasn't that inclusive, but it really got the ball rolling.
And it invented 'the Karen '
Thank God there wasn’t social media back then so that Debra could express her opinions 😅
@@NighttimeBirdGod that woman scares me
Found the antisemite
Meh. Ellen and WIll & Grace were just a very small sliver demographic of the entire queer population. I hated Ellen forever and stopped watching Will and grace in their third season. The reboot, I heard was a catastrophe.
Honestly, I don't understand why we have this expectation of perfection. People are inherently (and inevitably) flawed. And it's great.
This! Life holds so much nuance and the way that some online discourse can flatten it is so sad and frankly boring. Nuance, which this video has, is what makes life interesting
In a practical sense, it's the same thing as women and racial minorities when rights aren't secured; if someone becomes a sh!t, then people seeking oppression will latch onto them as an object lesson as to "why they shouldn't have rights", and there always always ALWAYS just enough idiots to buy it. That, and there's the larger tide of societal scrutiny towards people outside the "default", and many ordinary people get swept up in it even if they know better.
Hello, Jessica! You have a keen way of discussing topics that I admire. You mentioned the lack of older and elder LGBTQ+ representation. At the end of June, I was at a Stonewall Remembrance ceremony in Rochester, NY, and had a few moments to speak at the event. Afterward, a young trans man (18?) from Tennessee came up to me as giddy as a new puppy. He had never met an openly out elder trans person before (66+). My very presence gave him hope that he can grow old and be happy. As he was fumbling for words, I interrupted him and said I knew what he was trying to say. With that I hugged him. Reminded him that he is never alone. I share this to emphasize your point that representation matters, and that repre3sentation of older LGBTQ+ people is more important than ever.
I always appreciate the wide number of various Jessicas arguing, providing commentary, and going on ADHYD research binges in the background.
I love the shout-out to Tipping the Velvet. ❤ The book and the BBC TV adaptation changed my life as a teenager.
I must have watched that show a hundred times!
@@jennifers5560 Same! The book and the show really peaked my gender curiosity, and I'm so thankful for that as a trans man now. It is because of Ellen and shows like that, that allowed me to think of just being who I am was even a remote possibility, and it is now a reality.
I thought that was a euphemism
@@milliescient It was in the late 19th century lol
I live in Kansas. I'm openly ⚤ and going to celebrate my 40th birthday. I never expected to see this milestone.
❤
Yep. I'm just about a year older than you, and I had a small crisis about 40. Not in the typical mid-life crisis sort of way you hear about, but in the "well crap, I didn't think I would make it this far, NOW what?" way. Now... you get to do whatever you want 😊
I love so much that you are! I'm fairly young (teen aged) and it's so scary to know if I'll live for the next year, but trans people living their lives, and living beyond myself is so inspiring and lovely. I wish you a happy birthday (◕ᴗ◕✿)
@@verloren918 lol figuring out what I want to do has been fun. I have so many hobbies lol.
@@archdevil7472 thank you so much. I can't wait to celebrate your birthday with you. I know it seems impossible, but hang in there. My best friend is trans and he is in his 40s. We are beyond excited to be the elders that we needed. I love you so much. I'm so proud of you.
It's not about what Bush believes, Ellen, it's about what he DID.
Like, for example proposing _Amendments_ restricting marriage rights to m/f. Or worse at this point, empowering anti-queer voices. Like, oh I don't know...Justice -Alito- Abomination.
Bertie is adorable! ❤ Also, I remember that episode when Ellen was singing in the mirror “I’m witty, and pretty and- “ and then the credits showed up.
They had so many little scenes like that until The Puppy episode. I remember one where they were looking for her and she was like “I’m in the closet”
She and Rosie O’Donnell did a whole bit about possibly being Lebanese (if I recall it was based on someone who accused them of that) where it was clear neither of them of them were talking about being from Lebanon.
@@jennifers5560Yes, and there was the one right before she came out where her character's in the bedroom getting ready and everybody in the cast is sitting in her living room going "Ellen, will you just come out already!"
@@clancyalexander6192 lol!
I find Ellen's story extremely fascinating in so many ways. Like how she was treated so poorly in her early days and even today she can't see how her behavior was inappropriate. One wonders if it has to do with the example that was set. It seems like a fair number of people her age are similarly blind to the worst of their actions. It's as if they think "I was better than the people before me, why don't you people appreciate that damnit!"
Just chiming in with Captain Holt's quote : "I would be betraying the very thing that I work so hard for." (BR99 S4 Ep16)
I personally think that Ellen did turn her back on the morals and became entitled, maybe she was afraid to lose everything, or maybe she just wanted to keep rising and didn't care what it would take.
@@povy2002 I see her as a Barbara Walters type - struggled in the past, then got successful asking many pertinent and smart questions, which was great; but over time started to forget what regular people are like, and lost the plot. When Walters asked Dolly Parton if her boobs were real, we could see that she was not as thoughtful and compassionate as she purported to be. I always think of that interview, when people talk about the Ellen/Mariah Carey incident. I can't trust someone who's done something like that. Money, fame, and power really can turn a decent person into a jerk, if they're not very careful.
@@Sarcasticron I think we all have moments like that when we put our foot in our mouth, but it's been my experience that a good number of boomers instead of admitting the mistake and owning up they double down and dig in defensively.
Star Trek Deep Space Nine episode showing a lesbian kiss was more impactful to my Gen X brain but yes, Ellen had an impact.
Omg I didn’t know about that! Star Trek has had so many huge progressive moments, I love it more and more
@@bella-bondin case you're curious and own a Paramount Plus account, it's the season 4 episode "Rejoined"
imagine lots of queer and trans folk found themselves through Voyager and DS9
You are SO RIGHT FOR THIS, I had the same thought!
This is something so little but I appreciate so much. Your captions are amazing. I feel like I never get the nuances of what is being said, but yours are genuinely so good. It alone makes me so much more engaged, but of course your content is just as amazing!
Gay boomer here. Turn sixty-six this year, came out in the early eighties, been with my civil partner/wife forty-one years. Loved Ellen for coming out in the Puppy episode the way she did, had no idea of the things she's done recently, very sad to hear it. 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
I think there’s a difference between having beliefs and weaponising them. Yes, George Bush is allowed to have his own opinions and yes, Ellen can be friends with him despite this. But he actively tried to pass legislation that would have encouraged violence and discrimination against queer people. Endangering a whole group of people because their existence goes against your personal beliefs is completely different to disagreeing with your friends. It’s honestly wild that she tried to make that comparison and it definitely shows her privilege imo.
Yeah, I want a GIF of Jessica wagging her finger and going, "No. No, we can't be friends." I would use it at least three times a week.
I continue to be baffled that ANYONE thinks that "having rights" is "just a matter of opinion".
The seismic impact of Ellen’s coming out absolutely cannot be overstated!
I am just a bit younger than Ellen, so I remember “the puppy episode” (which is totally worth watching, and I especially love the very end), the Times cover, and her coming out on the Oprah show!
Ellen will always be a hero to me for the courage she showed then!
For me, as someone who lived through it all, nothing she did later can erase the singular legacy of her bravery!
The very end with Melissa Etheridge and the toaster oven? It was soooo funny!
@@jennifers5560Yes! I laughed so much at that!
Word.
It was seismic (perfect word for it)! I get that everyone hates Ellen nowadays but she blew the doors open and for that I'll always be grateful to her.
Hi I love your content so much, your content has changed me as a person, and helped me when I am having a bad pain day,because I am chronically ill as well,and you are a very lovely person!
What a sweet message! Thank you so much, sending the most love your way. Thank you for being a part of our community ❤️
Born in 80 here, I had to move out of my family's house as a teenager when I came out in the late 90s. Back then, if you came out, you knew you were burning it all down and starting on your own. Nobody would have to do with you, or that was my setup, go back in the closet or move in with your boyfriend. I dropped out of college.
Ellen was important because her persona was very disarming. She was 'normal.' And she came out. I'm a way bigger Rosie O'Donnell fan, I taped her show every day back then, but Ellen came out. The 3 media influences I would place above that for me as an impact were a Madonna flier that came in the mail when I was around 8-10 detailing what AIDS was and how it worked (previous to which I thought little boys that played with dolls all eventually got sick and died of whatever AIDS was- seriously, I thought this as a child, I'd known 2 gay adults and they had died of AIDS), the Roseanne episode where she and Mariel Hemingway kiss, that was the first time in my life I heard anyone, real or imagined (a character), speak of homosexuality in anything approaching a neutral context instead of saying slurs with disdain, and the third was Rupaul in general. Rupaul would do late night talk shows, and was definitely pushing an envelope while also being skillfully poised, it took that first neutral context from that Roseanne episode I experienced and brought it into the real world, now I was hearing even homophobic members of my family have something nice to say about at least this gay person, even male members of my family would comment how fabulous Ru looked, even though they weren't 'like that', and seeing a gay person that bold be admired was inspiring.
I wouldn't count those as untarnished sources of illumination, lots of messy controversies all around later, Roseanne especially, (Madge has a permanent free pass for everything from me, srynotsry) but those were the moments and impressions I remember most as a teen in the 90s. I'm Puerto Rican, so Wilson Cruz on 'My So-Called Life' was an impact on me in the abstract, but I did not have cable back then, and that distant knowledge was no match for the Catholic Latin community's alienation level toward me. I at least knew I wasn't the only gay Puerto Rican.
I cried hard to that Roseanne episode. I was terrified someone would walk into the living room and ask why I was reacting like that. It would be years after that before I could admit to myself I was gay. But that was the first moment I let myself think "Maybe there's nothing wrong with being gay." All my steps followed that step.
Shout out to KD Lang and Melissa Etheridge. They were not glamorous. But they were the absolute real deal. Ellen was more mainstream, and had an opportunity to make a different impact, and she did. Even though it might cost her.
I know what it is like to decide your integrity is worth more than financial security when choosing to exhibit it guarantees universal derision. And that is why I know better than to judge Ellen Degeneres.
I didn't come out because Ellen came out. But I will always be glad for having had the cold comfort of some company.
Wilson Cruz is so underrated!!
I'm old enough to remember that time, and appreciate learning how other people experienced it. Isn't it nice that it feels strange now, to think about how Ellen's coming out was such a big deal at the time? Also KD Lang and Melissa Etheridge. Such a big freaking deal back then, and now acting so shocked would be laughed at. We've come so far, and we mustn't forget this, even though there's still a long way to go. Thanks for telling your story!
Bertie is so cute! I know he's not the focus of the episode but he's too adorable!
Right 🥹
I used to watch her show regularly a decade ago, and even after the infamous interview with Nikkie Tutorials was published, I watched the show a few more times. In my opinion, her mistreatment of people behind the scenes and the problematic work conditions definitely can be called out. However, I don't think she ever deserved to be 'cancelled' or vilified considering how much positivity and contribution she brought to society and LGBTQ people in particular (not everyone obviously). All the donations and highlightings of people in need on her show has proven that she did a lot of good things.
Exactly!
Nobody I know walks on water.
People are messy, imperfect, works in progress.
We can be very 2 dimensional, and only focus on one aspect of an individual, or ....
We can celebrate the positive contributions while also addressing the areas with room for growth and reparations.
I came out in 1981. I was 8-9 years old when the Stonewall Riots occurred. But the religion I grew up in forbade any kind of deviance. Especially homosexuality and Sapphic Love.
It was a hard time. I lost friends due to the AIDS crisis and horrified at the response of our government to help our people. We are all Americans aren’t we?
I cheered when Ellen came out. We all knew it, it was confirmed (I lived close to LA, rumor mill city). I watched her show and the first few years of her talk show. I grew tired of the format, just like I did with another super important Lesbian in the public eye, Rosie O’Donnell.
I was so heartsick when I heard about her bad, bad behavior. But I’ve seen this happen before. People who make it to the big time and then turn into utter a-holes.
Thanks for this breakdown. Very awesome. And good job Jessica.
By the way I finally came out as a transman at 61. It is definitely an experience! (PS: say hi to Jamie and Shaaba for me from America).
I'm an elder millennial so I saw it live. Everybody was gabbing about Ellen when she came out in Time, most of it negative. I remember watching "The Puppy Episode" with my mom (we loved the show) and just kind of shrugging. We had anticipated it after the article and interviews. It didn't bother us at all. I guess I modeled my coming out after Ellen's unconsciously. I just stopped dating men and never said a word for years.
I remember seeing her on the cover of Time at the grocery store. I just couldn’t get myself to pick it up and buy it. I was terrified of being found out. Luckily my Dentist had it in his waiting room so I got to read it. I came out a year later.
From what I’ve seen on the internet in interviews, she seems to cross the line from “host” to “bully” a little too quickly. That’s all I need to know to not feel comfortable seeing her on the internet.
I agree. Not only that, but crossing that line is a bad thing, no matter how slowly or fast.
Power and money usually have a bad influence on people. Most people become even more flawed than we all are, when life burdens them with both power and lots of money. And people who misuse their power should be madeto reflect on why they became a bully and must prove to those around them that they have realised they were in the wrong and are changed now. People change all the time and we all are flawed. None of us is perfect. Life becomes so much easier when you accept you are flawed too! You kearn to forgive yourself and accept your flaws and through that you might become a little more forgiving to another person. There are a lot of people i dont want to see in tv or in a movie, and sooooooo many more i dont want to see on the internet nor on social media. Because these people present themselves as bullies or very superficial or both but they are still people. They have the right to exist and wrestle with their ego and experiences through life, just like me. And i can click away those on the internet i dont want to see.
@@niencati love this comment
We need to give people the space to be complicated. SO many women are traumatised adults, and gay women even more so. This makes being a boss really hard. We've had centuries of pretty terrible men getting a pass for a range of bad behaviours, REALLY bad, but they've also brought us music, art, technological advances. It is not simple, it is complex and there is no wrong or right. I think we need to give our "new" celebs be imperfect. Not to let them do whtever they want, but cancelling people all the time because of their bad stuff is playing into the patriarchy even more.
exactly
Jessica probably filmed this over the course of several different days, in several different outfits, because of her chronic illness. She could have chosen to simply split the video up into chunks. Like, part one is in this outfits, part two is in this outfit, etc. Or, like, the first half of the video is in this outfit, the second half is in that outfit. But sprinkling all of the different outfits throughout the whole video keeps it visually interesting, and I think that was a really good and clever idea. Bravo, Jessica!
New puppy!!!!! Oh I want to see a picture!!
Aahhhh he’s so cute!!
8:33 until 8:44ish for those who missed it like me! :D
Yep, I definitely remember the Puppy Episode. My mom and I watched Ellen, and as a highschool senior, it was highly impactful for me to see it. As controvercial and problematic as some of hr actions became, I will always be grsteful to her and that episode.
Not a person but a show that deserves attention for it's representation and educational value is: The Fosters. It is about two lesbian woman caring for foster, adopted and biological children. The story is very moving, the importance of family is at the core of all of it, the characters are flawed and struggling but always come back to their love for one another. There are trans characters, different etnicities and a very homophobic father who is condemed for his actions but always also honored as a person. It's just beautiful. I cried so much watching it.
Also, fame can change people. So maybe Ellen genuinly was a better person at the time when she came out as during the time of those bullying actions. We can love her for who she was And hold her accountable for how she is acting now.
Ellen is an imperfect gay icon. I can live with that, she still made my life easier. 😊
I was a kid when Ellen came out. My family was excited to see what would happen. But the show was less exciting after that. I don't know if that was because we only watched because of the media hype or because the writing changed? I never watched her talk show. I do remember how people reacted to her downfall, though. So many people I know used it as proof of why gay people are unacceptable-- like the end was inevitable. Thank goodness more gay people are now visible so that there are more options for examples of living a good and wholesome life.
From what people who watched have told me, the show was extremely mid at best and probably would've been forgotten if she didn't come out on it.
I remember when she came out. There was so much backlash, and it seemed so few of us cheering her and the amazing thing she did. I actually haven't been paying much attention to the criticism of her, so I still admire her. But I will watch the rest of your video to learn more.
People still call her Ellen degenerate. And think it's funny.
Senior member of the LGBTQIA+ community here. Yes, I have many friends that I lost along the way, but there are others of us our and about. I went to a Pride march at the end of June and I was shocked and saddened that my age group was in the definite minority. But then, I was surrounded by young people and as we marched, I answered questions about the past and what it was like pre-AIDS, during the worst of AIDS, and now. How I miss Harvey Milk! It made me remember that there's hope in the young and replenished that in me. It's been very rough lately with all of the horrible back-sliding of politics and rights being taken away. I hate that I have to protest once again over abortion rights. I did this already in the early 1970's. I'm American and I have to remind young women that the Equal Rights Amendment was never enacted into law. Most people assume it was and are shocked to discover it wasn't. I guess it's time to break out my sneakers and start marching again and spreading the word of our history. I love your videos. Thank you for making me remember.
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Yeah, I want a t-shirt that says SAME SHIT, DIFFERENT PROTEST.
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Wow. Another world-class effort. Thank you for this. My wife and I VIVIDLY remember setting everything else aside to watch, and tape, The Puppy Episode when it first aired in 1997. We even unplugged the house phone (a thing you could do then) so that no one would interrupt while we were watching. I sat with a notebook in my lap, carefully writing down the name of every company that dared air a commercial during Ellen's coming-out broadcast, and tucked it into the tape for posterity. When we downsized our household for a cross-country move a quarter-century later, that tape was one of the very few household goods we kept.
I was heartbroken, but not surprised, to find out that she was cruel to everyone on her talk show. There's a certain credit-to-my-race approach many celebrities from minority communities employ to present themselves as non-threatening, benevolent, and egalitarian; notably, lesbian comedian/actor/talk-show host Rosie O'Donnell, whose performance career has many similarities to that of Ellen DeGeneres, developed a public persona of the Queen of Nice that she only set aside in favor of an effervescent, vinegary, unapologetic progressivism after her show had safely been part of TV history for several years.
I have always remembered a comment made by Sidney Poitier, one of the first high-profile Black actors who achieved top-of-the-marquee box-office success in the movies. In the early 1960s, an interviewer asked him why he always played good guys; didn't he ever long to sink his teeth into a meaty role as a snarling villain every once in a while? Poitier replied, "I'm the only one. I'm the only Negro actor who works with any degree of regularity. Wait till there are six of us; then one of us can play the villain all the time."
Strivers and scrappers, especially those from unprivileged socioeconomic classes, often suspect that they cannot afford to practice respect or benevolence when they finally reach the top. While there are exceptions--the Obama White House was able to operate within a rigid framework of egalitarian courtesy while ditching time-consuming pleasantries like "Please" and "Thank you"--it shouldn't surprise anyone to find vulnerable high-profile notables jumping immediately to bullying, coercion, and thuggery. We'll know things have changed when the concept of noblesse oblige is adopted not just by 700-year-old aristocratic families, but also by celebrities who made it from the trailer park all the way to the fanciest mansion in the Hamptons.
Her last name is pronounced dee generous. Which is ironic because despite her show she strikes me as a very self centered greedy person.
I do remember that Times cover when Ellen came out. I was just a little kid then but remembering thinking that she was brave for making such a bold move. I would say that as far as television goes, Will & Grace was the most influential show that taught me important lessons that dispelled the stereotypical ideas that society had about gay people.
"...reverend Jerry Falwell, who sucks..." I love that you can be very crass when the situation calls for it! ❤
"who sucks" is very much NOT "very crass", particularly where Jerry Falwell is concerned.
Yeah, that's, uh, an extremely polite way to talk about him, actually.
@@katelijnesommen Yeah, I was thinking something along the lines of, "...for whom we would have invented the concept of eternal hellfire if it didn't already exist..."
I come from breadtube (and cornbread tube), where a deep dive is 1.5, even two hours or more. 😅 But this was a fun one, I'd love to see more of these! Well done Jessica! (And the outfits are fab, as always)
I am not old enough to have watched her sitcom, but I remember watching her talk show almost every day after school for a few years when I was a kid. It was something that got women my mom’s age watching, discussing, and considering gay rights in a more positive light. I was devastated when I found out about her contributions to an uncomfortable work culture on her set. I never watched another episode after or clip on RUclips. And I hated how Nikkitutorials was reportedly treated as a fan of Ellen and a trans woman who was excited to talk openly with another queer woman about coming out. Ellen has an extensive legacy of increasing visibility for the community, but she should be held accountable for the issues that she caused and perpetrated. I think it’s also important to remember that women, poc, and queer people are held to a higher standard when it comes to tv as even though Ellen was required to make a public apology and eventually lost her show after the scandal, Jimmy Fallon, who was the subject of an expose on a disturbing workplace environment, never apologized publicly and still hosts his show to this day.
This makes me think of a book called Sing you home by Jodi Picoult. I grew up in a pretty homophobic place and it had very little representation, felt completely isolated - this book gave me hope and show me it's all normal what i feel. And the main characters are talking about Ellen's coming out due to one of them going through understanding and accepting herself and coming out in public about it.
Jodi Picoult is an undervalued author!
T. Kingfisher is another one.
@@Lazy_Fish_Keeper Yes, she is. And thank you for recommendation, I'm not familiar with T. Kingfisher, but I will look it up
I remember being a teenager, hearing that the episode was coming out, and turning on my small old black & white tv that was in my bedroom to watch it. Trying to sneak to my bedroom to watch it with the volume as low as it could go but still be heard so my parents didn't hear...it was a huge step for the cultural conversation at the time.
I have to say, having been a young child in the early 00s, the cultural impact of Finding Nemo and specifically the character of Dory CANNOT be overstated
thanks for commenting this - wondering if you could elaborate? i was a young child in the 00s, and im queer, knew i was queer then, but i feel like i missed a memo on what the impact of this film was. i liked it, but am confused at why/how dory was such a big deal 😭😭 but always been afraid to ask 😂😂
I'm in my 50s and Ellen's coming out rocked my world. She wasn't the only person influencing lesbian rights. She was significant. Talking about her show gave me a way of talking about this still heavily taboo topic. And seeing her rocked my internal world.
Omg I love all the insightful pointers you made and how you backed them up with actual statistics we need more of that in modern media
I missed your video essays, but I loved this, thank you Jessica. Your videos are always a delight x
I think it is perhaps hard in our current society to imagine how starved we were for positive representation at that time and what a big deal Ellen coming out was. I remember sneakily staying up to watch it as a still firmly in the closet (and also at convent school!) teenager and it did genuinely make me feel less alone.
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Brilliantly put together video. 👏🏼
This was amazing thank you Jessica
That clap reminded me -- you should do a video on the woman who wrote the Friends theme song! I heard there's a documentary about her life being worked on. I think it might be interesting for your channel
Or perhaps something that is not from the us/ English speaking culture
I remember watching The Puppy Episode and immediately saying "Well, there goes her career." because I just knew her show was going to get cancelled soon after.
Fantastic video. Good research, brilliant delivery and interesting. Thank you for talking about this and for giving it a context.
Insightful as always! Great editing too
Adorable puppy by the way. 67, born in Detroit. I've a bit of a different story {as we all}. Suffered thru the path to here, with interesting did that happen? "back in `da day" to be shared at another time, Ellen's accomplishments were ground breaking, her voice/endorsement/attention to setting "something out there", Out-freakin-standing.
If it hadn't been for that thing that also came out a coupla years ago bout her character {and I'll leave it at that}.
Jessica, you brighten my day, if your out & about, and it crosses your mind?
Could ya read somethin' {menu, advert, no vlog thing}. Love the sound of your voice. Be well.
Truly enjoyed this video! So well done and engaging :)
I’m a minute in and there have already been, like, 4 different outfits, all beautiful. The production value of this video feels polished af, thank you for working so hard to make your content so good, especially when life can make it so much harder to create what you want. I know it’s really appreciated by us.
My personal icon turned out to be extremely disappointing as well. From now on, I'm stanning Bertie!
(I feel like I should clarify that I'm talking about recent accusations against a famous author, not Jessie and Claud who are obvs icons themselves 😆)
Bertie would never 😉 x
I love these deep dives so much!!! 😍 PS - you should do more takes from your bedroom closet floor; as a hearing person, the acoustics were wonderful (more areas to absorb sound instead of bouncing it around). It sounded very rich in those clips. 😘
Absolutely wonderful video!! Beautifully done!!! again~!
I am an elder millennial and I have been increasingly frustrated with the blatant ageism I have seen amongst some younger people. I’m so glad you touched on the importance of representation for elder lgbtq+ people as well as young people. It’s important for both the queer community AND older people. Thank you!!
the thing that's missing the most in nowadays media discourse and ""cancel culture"" is NUANCE.
people are not strictly good or bad, there's a thousand shades of gray in between. important people make a lot of mistakes and we may not want to continue to support them, but we don't have a right to discredit them or try to erase their legacy. we need to recognize the importance of those who came before us even if they aren't perfect (because no one is or can be!).
I appreciate these nuanced deep dives!
It amuses me how you pronounce DeGeneres. I imagine it's similar to how we Americans say Rowling's name. (Sorry to mention She Who Should Not Be Named, but I couldn't think of a similar family name.)
I would assume that's Jessica's deafness rather than her Britishness
Perfect, needed this video! Always nuance…
Interesting, informative, wonderful as always 😊
I loved that you performed the whole Dakota Johnson-Ellen confrontation as a sketch rather than playing a clip. It is such an iconic pop-culture moment and it makes it better that so many of us know the lines 😂
I’ve been lucky to see a few younger people discover Miriam Margolyes-having elders like her are so important to show that LGBTQ people have futures.
Shoutout to the superb subtitles
Your videos always make my day, thank you! 🌈
Thank you for promoting this Both And perspective! I'll admit that at one point I did a hard pivot and became a "hater" for awhile because I knew some people who had worked for her and... well, it's hard when you realize the performance and the person are so different. But v glad I grew to this more complex view because it's more true.
Not related to Ellen per se, but I have grown to believe that people expect celebrities to be welcoming and friendly all of the time, but I actually don't believe that's a healthy expectation to have. If a complete stranger approached you on the street and started talking to you like they knew you, that would be incredibly unsettling. If someone mailed you a bust of your head that they had made, and expected you to cherish it as a gift, again that would feel more like a stalker thing to do than a normal social interaction.
I'm by no means trying to claim that this is all that Ellen did, or that she doesn't seem to be an incredibly toxic boss and person, but I do think that people expecting celebrities to be approachable should think long and hard about why they think that's a reasonable expectation.
Very valid insight! Thank you for sharing x
Bertie!!! The only thing wrong with this Puppy episode was that Bertie's cameo was too short😥 /j 🐶🦮🐕🥰
Thank you. Being an influencer can no doubt take a toll…. But it has genuinely given me a lot of hope. I am a teen and you may just be the ONLY happy adult queer individual I’ve seen. Thank you also for supplying the internet with the proper terms to talk. I just feel so positively I fluencies when watching your videos. So refreshing.
I need that lipstick colour paired with the pink blouse. Lovit Jessica!!!❤
I am a bit young for most of what you talk about here so I will mindlessly consume more information in your gorgeous accent and file it in the random bit of my brain devoted to queer trivia. I feel like the closest I can get to understanding this is the impact the Percy Jackson universe had on my friend group after Trials of Apollo. It seriously made such difference, I was like you Jessie, I was the really obvious lesbian child in my family but there was such a shift in the understanding of people I hung around after reading the series to a point where certain people became civil to the point of talking to me again. Also thank you for your existence, I am currently going through the lesbian rite of passage of crushing on a homophobic straight girl (it’s the worst!!!) and you make me feel less alone in my sexuality, especially as a queer person who also has ADHD you really inspire me. Furthermore, very cute doggy! (Sorry for the paragraph, the autistic side of brain is in control.)
I remember watching her as a kid when the puppy episode and she came out. It was life-changing for me. She may have turned into (or always been, deep down) a terrible person... but she was gay and she had a wife, which were all things i wanted as a kid but knew I couldn't have. I grew up with a severe disability and knew I needed legal marriage bc medical care was tied to that (and jobs). It was heartbreaking to grow up like that. To see her on mainstream tv was indescribable. I know it wasn't enough, but it was so important to my own development to see that. It's disappointing how she turned out, but I've learned to put no one on a pedastal or stan anyone I don't personally know.
Great video!
Brillant, well researched video, dear! I liked it very much. I want to mention something technical though; the sound was very echoing at parts... maybe you could put up blankets or lay carpets or something sound panel like that. I couldn't understand you and had to read the subtitles. That was quite exhausting, but your video was so nice, that I watched till the end nevertheless.
The lesbian and other gay characters in 'Roseanne' were very impressive to me when I was a teen in the 90's. :)
I was 14 when Ellen's coming out episode aired. It was the same year I came out and dated a lovely girl openly for the first time (who I'm still friends with to this day). I didn't just watch the episode when it aired. I recorded it on VHS. It was so important to me because I felt seen.
The criticisms of Ellen are valid and should be talked about but she will also still have a special place in some of our hearts because of how her visibility and openness about being LGBT affected us. She's a complicated figure but I think it's a good thing to talk about the positive things she's done while still addressing the rest.
20:41 Jessica, you are such a legend!
Thank you for making this video
Ellen, like all of us, is flawed. But that shouldn't take away the impact she made by coming out. She should have been more sympathetic to her crew and not bully some of her guests.
Yeah. Compared to Caitlyn Jenner, her negative actions have been fairly tame. Yes being a horrible boss is certainly wrong and deserves some criticism and being friends with George W Bush is also not a good look (although compared to the modern GOP, Bush is far from the worst company one could keep). However Ellen has never formally endorsed the GOP or campaigned for TERFs or marched with Matt Walsh. So while she is a deeply flawed individual, I think the backlash against her has been a bit disproportionate. Some people act like she went full JK Rowling or even as far as Caitlyn Jenner or Roseanne Barr.
There's no excusing terrible behavior to your employees but it also seems clear that, unfortunately, she probably wouldn't have received nearly as much public criticism is she'd been a heterosexual cis guy.
I, also, immediately thought of tipping the velvet 😂
Love your puppy ❤
This was fascinating and I so appreciate this incredibly well researched and presented summary of Ellen (also the occasional peak at lil Bertie!)
!!!!!!!!! congrats on the puppy!!!! 💜💜💜💜
Growing up with almost all of this, I remember not really knowing how to process the criticisms of her as they were being reported. I appreciate this video helping me put it all in perspective!
I know you’re a buffy fan and have talked about it in passing but I would love a video on the importance and influence of queer characters in mainstream teen shows in the 90s, specifically I’m thinking dawsons creek and buffy but I know there’s others too