I knew this would happen right after my new Tacx Neo 2T was delivered! My 2020 Tacx Neo 2T went up in smoke last week, so I ordered another one, which arrived yesterday. I felt bad until the end of your review where you mentioned the price. $2k vs the $900 I paid for the 2T a few days ago...I'll stick with the 2T :)
To me, this feels like a $2,700 CAD slightly moving handle with dual bluetooth. Right now, you can get a 2T for less than half that price, and it's still a very good trainer (albeit without some of the newer incremental features). I can't see a compelling reason to get this at that price point when there are other trainers that largely do the same thing for much cheaper.
Nice review! I really like how you translate the features so well in terms of intentions in the feature by Tacx, how it compares, and what the user would experience and under what conditions. Incredibly helpful.
Glad this came so late in the holiday season otherwise I’d be tempted to buy. I’m a big fan of erg mode workouts and great to see they’ve surpassed saris now. Price to features ratio is just off tho. I hope the first big firmware update includes race mode and WiFi -that’s got to be included but just not active, right?!? Plus no Neo climb. Can’t wait for the Kickr/Neo deep dive vid. Great vid as always Ray! 🎉
The 2T model that you can get for 900 USD down from 1400 directly from Garmin's site is looking mighty fine right now. Given the features on the 3M version are not worth the extra 1K price tag. Already have the Zwift Hub One so not for me. I agree with you, they needed to add something like climb functionality or something like track bike functionality for it to be worth the 2K price point, which is the price of a Wahoo Kickr plus climb simulator for reference. Even if this bike knocks it out of the park with its current functions and is able to be problem-free for the next couple of years the price point is still a major problem when compared to other trainers with it costing sometimes even 1K more than other competitors including its own trainer that its retiring. What they needed to do is to do a complete refresh on the Tacx Neo bike lineups. The current Flux and Tacx bike trainers are looking okay vs other offerings but the Neo bike(s) are not up to par with less than ideal shifters and whatever is going on with the front console unit and the trainer unit on it is virtually the same as the 2T.
I know this is a trainer but the Sb20 is the same price at least it was during Black Friday. Wouldn’t this be a better buy? I wish you did a recap on these things for us newbies lol. I want to make sure I didn’t obsolete myself getting the Stages. Thanks DC Rainmaker for the work you do for us!
Great job Ray. I think Garmin should come out again w/ a new smart bike as the last refresh they did was not nearly as accurate as this in terms of power meter reading in ERG mode for interval workouts, which GP Lama covered and I think you did as well. Thanks again
Completely agree with Ray's point about Garmin/Tacx perhaps over-focusing on the marginal accuracy improvement gains. This is akin to what happened in the digital camera realm leading up to the iphone/smart phone era. It was a mega-pixel arms race every product cycle, and then the iPhone came out and upended much of the digital imaging paradigm. 'Good' was no longer the thing with 10% more megapixels; it was the thing with greater versatility and good enough image quality for most people. This is what Zwift has done with the Zwift Hub - they are thinking about ecosystem versatility -vs- making absolute hardware. I own and use the Tacx Neo 1 heavily. My partner owns the Zwift Hub One-which I use as well. While the build and engineering quality isn't even close between the two, the practical day-to-day experience is not worlds apart. Plus, Zwift has been good (lately) at updating features on the platform and with their devices. For many of us who train and race, the services and ecosystem side of the equation is every bit as important as the hardware - and our expectations tend to be set by companies that deliver the most dynamic, versatile experiences at a greater frequency.
Thx for the excellent review (as always…), Actually I was expecting a new neo trainer when they started offering the 2T with some accessories for a good price, but with this new price tag I‘m gonna go for the Elite justo which is sold here in Austria for €809.- including delivery…
High accuracy mostly benefits racers. I use trainer just to have something at home during the winter. As long as it's comfortable and natural (which usually it isn't), I would be happy. Accuracy can be compensated with an external power meter, which I use Assioma anyway.
Anyone that rides a lot of short intervals will really benefit from the accuracy. Short/hard intervals will be much easier since you aren't overshooting significantly every interval.
Thanks Ray, I'm a big Neo fan, I bought the original one, mainly as it was so quiet, currently running the 2T, but I won't be getting this, the price is stupid
Great review Ray, I’m still using my 2017 Neo it’s still Brilliant and I bought a Wahoo Climb earlier this week. They work together fine on Manual climb mode. Tacx/Garmin have missed a big opportunity here. Indoor training has never been so good and the climb and my Neo Motion plates are a game changer. When I go to update my Trainer in a year or two I’ll be going with Wahoo. Sorry Garmin!! Too expensive and not enough innovation.
Hi-would you be willing to share more details about your setup? I also own the Tacx Neo 1 (2018) and have long wondered and wished for the ability to use a Kickr Climb Or Elite Rizer with my Neo. Everything I found online indicated that this is not possible, apparently because when fully clamped into the Neo, the Neo's axle mechanism does not allow the bike to rotate up and down.
Using the neo with a climb adjuster like this is going to wear out the droputs of your bike. Unless you've put a plate under the neo that somehow attaches it to the frame and incorporates some kind of external pivot.
@@rivingtonandstantonyou could do this if you rotationally lock the trainer to the frame. For example, if you put the neo on a plate that has an arm to attach to the frame, and then put a pivot between the plate and the floor. Just so the trainer rotates with the bike.
@@rivingtonandstanton no problem, I did a test ahead of time to see if the bike would pivot from the axle by simply lifting the front of the bike up by the bars to see if there was any resistance or clicking. It is smooth as silk so I grabbed a Climb on sale this week. I have sighed up for a gravel event next year and indoor training really works well for me with the exception of working the muscles in my lower back. A few years back I turned up at TDU and was reasonably fit but had back issues as most of my training was done on the flat or on Zwift. Intervals on Zwift now are great..
I suspect that the addition of the motor and additional magnets for the road feel feature add quite a bit more cost to this trainer than most people are considering. That's some serious hardware (and software) added to this trainer that most (all?) other trainers lack, and most certainly the Wahoo one that was compared to this one in another DC Rainmaker video. For many people, that hardware and those two features may not be worth the extra several hundred dollars, but they are to me, which is why I'm considering replacing my Wahoo KICKR ROLLR with one of these. Anything that can help a God-awful indoor ride feel more like I'm *actually* going for a bike ride will make it more likely that I'll get on the trainer. That downhill simulation is a huge deal to me. I hate that I have to keep pedaling going downhill in the trainer, with my displayed speed shooting through the roof even though I'm just pedaling at a normal pace with standard flat terrain resistance. DRIVES ME NUTS.
$2k USD plus I have to buy a dongle. Even worst is the derailleur clearance. I can only imagine the chances of it getting bent out of shape look high. Smart trainers are well immersed in the market these days. There's nothing earth-shattering on offer from this trainer that justifies its price point.
This would be the greatest announcement of the year if the year was 2020!🎉🎉🎉 Nice fractional update to the power and resistance management, but missing some key features. Cassettes are obsolete now, theres no reason to not have virtual shifting.
Yep. Currently they are blowing out the now obsolete Neo 2T, which I'm sure Garmin imagines people will reject in favor of the latest and greatest. Knowing what I know now, if I were faced with that dilemma, I would still choose the 2T. But hindsight is 20/20. I have had a 2T for at least a couple of years, and it still runs as well as the day I got it. There is one niggling problem to which Ray alluded only briefly. When the rear derailleur is shifted to the innermost cog, the cage rubs against a rotating part of the Neo. Garmin provides a solution to the problem in the form of spacers that you can insert behind the freehub body. While that solves one problem, it creates another (at least for me). Inserting the spacer(s) behind the freehub body eliminated the rubbing, but also moved the chain line. Consequently, when I'm on the small ring and shifting towards the innermost (largest) cogs, the chain contacts the outer cage plate of the front derailleur prematurely. In other words, the chain is contacting the cage plate of the front derailleur a couple of shifts before it should. Over the last couple of years, I have engaged other Neo owners about this problem. So far, any real solution has been elusive. Consequently, I simply avoid using those cogs. This deprives me of certain gear combinations that might otherwise be desirable. Not inserting the spacers would be ill-advised, because the part of the Neo against which the cage is rubbing spins rapidly; thereby acting like a grinder. I don't know how gentle the contact would have to be for me to feel comfortable ignoring it. I'm just surprised that, several years and another generation later, the problem still exists. Based on the couple of reviews I've seen, it's my opinion that the best new feature on the Neo is the handle - just as it was when Wahoo improved the one on the KICKR. I believe I paid fourteen or fifteen hundred dollars when I purchased my 2T. It was at the beginning of the pandemic, and smart trainers were flying off the shelves. I was looking to replace my KICKR, which had finally stopped working. I would have replaced it, but I simply couldn't find one. Even then I thought $1500 was a lot of money, but I was desperate. Besides, it gave me an excuse for spending that much money and finding out what road-surface simulation was all about. Regardless, except for the issue I alluded to above, I have few complaints. Are the new features on the 3M worth the inflated price? As the technology matures, I believe the price of these devices should decrease - not increase. Ray has done a good job describing the differences. What do you think?
Another awesome review. Too expensive though. I treat indoor training a lot less seriously than others perhaps. Anything over $1000 is too much to ride indoors
My understanding is that you can use phrase if you aren't in the same marketplace or have come to the conclusion of using the name without taking inspiration from other's brandings and trademarks. 3M is a generic phrase so it would be foolish to go after others for simply using a two-letter phrase that just so happens to be theirs.
I admit it's an amazing trainer. Super quiet, really accurate, and all the bells and whistles like motion are very nice as well. If I lived somewhere that didn't allow me to ride often safely, or perhaps in a location where the weather kept me snowed in for months at a time, I'd really consider buying one. Thankfully I live in Central Florida and there are many miles of back roads and the weather...well...it's Florida isn't it? So for now I'll stick with my cheap little Snap that has given me years of faithful service for the rare occasion I ride indoors. Perhaps some years down the road when these types of trainers reach an affordable level, I'll replace the current model. Great review though, thorough as always.
LOL, I live in Wisconsin and have been forced indoors to ride for a grand total of 4 days since the 3rd quarter of 2023. Some people are just built different, I guess.
The physical interference on the derailleur cage at this price point is ridiculous. Kudos on the trick flywheel, but I think Wahoo still better this with their existing products.
Thanks for the review DC. Always find your videos useful. However, I think the final thoughts was a little too kind. Compared to the 2T is there a meaningful upgrade? Is this really value when compared to the alternatives? At this price it is getting into the realm of smart indoor bike territory. My 2T is still going strong after 5 years and I would say the additional movement is quite a let-down when compared to what else is out there. Based on what I've seen it does look like Garmin is late to the game, and that is coming from someone fully on their ecosystem.
Thoughts on the Neo 3M and the two Garmin smart bikes? Size and weight aside, how about the experience and training value. Is there one of these you deem the best price to feature option? Awesome review as usual. You are the sports gadget GOAT!
Great video, well done!!! Not sure if i would go and buy it, pretty happy with neo 2T. BUT, in case of a new gen neo bike would come along ...maybe yeasss
Agree with your conclusion, they should have spend time on other more useful features or also have done these features - But regardless I hope they keep the Neo 2T - This is just too expensive.
With 2k I would buy Gymrail Momentum X1 rocker + 700€/$ trainer. Gymrail offers very natural movements, bike moves freely like outdoors and doesn't feel like riding on rails. It is also adjustable for riders needs. 700€/$ trainer is still accurate enough for indoor training and inertia is also acceptable.
From a feel standpoint, pretty accurate. Overall accuracy of power, pretty accurate. Really the biggest gain is in ERG/structured workout mode, where it notably different/better.
I will admit to being a bit of a Garmin fan but I don't think I will ever buy any of their smart trainers. Aesthetically they have a very pleasing design but they are priced quite a bit too high when comparing features with e.g. the Wahoo trainers. And I totally agree. Why on earth are they not available in 12 speed versions?
In the growing eSports realm (thinking eSports Olympics here), having this sort of accuracy might make it as a potential official equipment requirement for that level of racing? Surely there will need to be a "blessed" list of eligible equipment at a minimum. Just throwing that thought out there :)
11spd is fine. At this price point a new 12spd bike is way out of the question. Why integrate the power unit? If it blows you're screwed. That they've done it and made it hard to mount the bike is weird. The lack of gen2 features is a big black mark.
That price is an immediate marketing killer. Why would they think it could sell at that price? I think they might be doing it too then discount it for the holidays
I think the only other trainer that simulates road feel is the new Magene t600 trainer. No reviews yet (it'd be nice if Ray could get his hands on one) but their crank powermeters have been very accurate and affordable, so maybe there's hope?
Just had a look at it on their website, very interesting, it has 10hz racemode direct connect over wifi and lan. And also has neodymium magnets for resistance control. GPlama will publish a review on his channel soon.
No 3M for me. I'll _stick_ to my old trainer. Every Christmas, my eyes are _glued_ to my credit card balance. BTW, at 15:46 is it Taylor Phinney going by ?
Seeing so many comments how they won’t be upgrading their 2T for this 3M. This isn’t a 2T update, this 3M is to compete with the Kickr Move. There is likely a 3T coming to compete with the Kickr 6.
My thoughts too. The one feature on any smart trainer that makes sense to upgrade for me is the Zwift Hub One with its virtual gearing. No cross training power loss, no cassette to wear out, vastly quieter.
the lateral tilt on driveside is a issue, tacx sent me offset feet to accommodate this but even then i use cardboard on driveside to offset this more. interesting pre garmin buyout i was told tacx was moving away from the wings to a more stable platform but with lateral play on the feet.
So technically 3M in standart comes with movement plates, where for 2T you can get movement plates as accesory or as bundle and some small fixes for disk brake frames. But everything else in technical side stays the same as 2T?
While true about the motion plates, as noted in the video there are substantial changes around the power system internally, fully redesigned, which give it better accuracy and more control - even if the specs on paper (max watts/accuracy) theoretically stay the same.
After using the Inside Ride Smart rollers, I can't go back to the constraints of a trainer. The rollers are sitting right next to a Wahoo Kickr on an Inside Ride E-Flex and I always use the rollers except for workouts with lots of sprints. That ride feel on trainers is good, but the rider engagement with the rollers is a whole different level.
You aren’t riding for to have fun or engagement; you’re riding to provide your muscles with specific stimuli to illicit an ideal physical adaptations. I don’t get why people bother with zwift etc. just put on a structured training prog and then use that time to watch the television or get some work done on a laptop. You’re already saving time not having to ride outdoors; might as well maximise the time by doing more productive things while exercising your legs.
This all sounded really great until the price tbh. I have been considering upgrading from my loud, old, but working v1 kickr but for the price I'm not so sure
Do disc brake calipers still rub like on the 2T? Or did they trade that out for the derailleur contact? SMH at both of those…I have been going back and forth on a 2T versus a Kicker v6 for several weeks…probably going with the Kickr due to the Climb for the future, and the way ramp erg mode. The downhill mode on the Tacx is very intriguing though. Still can’t see this over a 2T though for 2x the cost.
IMO the downhill mode is.... useless. For that reason I never plug in my Neo . In workouts it's useless, no any better in free riding - you are sitting on the trainer and doing very little or no work on downhills - so why sit there.
To late for me Garmin had good customer service in UK none better exchanging my Neo 2 t and other things etc no charge but did not know this was coming and to high a price for me anyway. Just bought Wahoo Kickr 6v 👍👍 another thing here though anyone with limited ( narrow) hall way space like me cannot buy Wahoo Kickr Move as it has a wider spacing of feet./ the old Kickr just fits. So Wahoo you lost a sale to me by making it wider don't know if I have lost out in riding comfort and pleasure or not.
the funny thing with me lately is I've dropped using erg mode for workouts and even on zwift I turn down trainer difficulty or have it completely off to do workouts. I've been thinking about replacing my gen 1 cycleops hammer but given everything maybe I'd be good just using kurt kinetic fluid again lol
A bit strange such accuracy against power meter, when for 2T they claim that it's normal to have losses of 2-5% due to losses in drivetrain (since it's being measured at hub)... well, this new 3M reads power at hub... so why it's different!? Now, how can they sustain such argument for 2T? I may be missing something though, ofc :)
Generally speaking, you'll see about 1-2% drivetrain losses, less if clean, more if dirty - between a crankset/pedal and rear of unit (wheel area), whereby the pedal should be just slightly higher.
@@Dcrainmaker thanks for your feedback... so, in your opinion, in general terms, the accuracy of 2T and 3M is similar? I own a 2T, quite happy with it tbh... but it reads ~5% lower compared to my Giant power pro power meter. Ok, I must admit that while drivetrain is not too bad, it's not perfectly clean at all times :) also, I'm not sure if power meter is really accurate... it can be reading a bit on the high side... anyway, I guess the losses are more or less within advertised accuracy ranges for both equipments...
This looks cool, but I’m happy that I bought the neo 2t when it was on sale, sorry garmin, I have nothing but love for you but I can’t drop $2k on a trainer.
You‘re telling me they designed a trainer this expensive and a SHIMANO DURA ACE DEREILLEUR is too long and therefore rubbing against the casing? Who designed this?? It’s not like a random Ali Express Groupset won’t fit 😂😂
Sooo ... I want to know what's the disk brake CALIPER clearance ? On my 2T I need to unscrew one of the screws of the caliper and move the caliper outside for the bike to fit. On 3M .... the rear derailleur touches the frame ... so the idiots at tacks are designing theese things using rim brake bikes ? Do the engineers HAVE a bike ? I guess they are not cyclists...
I get it that the wifi/ethernet dongle is separate from the trainer. If the dongle fails, I'd rather only have to replace it instead of potentially having to send in the whole trainer for repair. However, the dongle SHOULD be included as standard equipment.
Garmin probably just lost a huge potential customer base to Wahoo based on this ridiculous price point. I find Garmin do NOT care about what customers have to say , ie, over $400 for just the motion plates??? and there hasn't been any movement on price. And do we really care about how much improved they got the accuracy down to??? Not for me, sorry, not impressed!
I knew this would happen right after my new Tacx Neo 2T was delivered! My 2020 Tacx Neo 2T went up in smoke last week, so I ordered another one, which arrived yesterday. I felt bad until the end of your review where you mentioned the price. $2k vs the $900 I paid for the 2T a few days ago...I'll stick with the 2T :)
Yeah, the current $899 deal for the 2T is insanely good.
I would do the same today, even after the 3M launch, I’d buy a 2T for $999 with motion plates instead of this 3M@@Dcrainmaker
Love my 2T!
Same thing happened to me haha 😂😢
MY 1st gen Neo is still going strong. bought in 2017. i'm suprpised your 2T died that soon.
To me, this feels like a $2,700 CAD slightly moving handle with dual bluetooth. Right now, you can get a 2T for less than half that price, and it's still a very good trainer (albeit without some of the newer incremental features). I can't see a compelling reason to get this at that price point when there are other trainers that largely do the same thing for much cheaper.
What's crazy is that I have a Wahoo Move in my shop and it's $2150 CAD. Really can't justify the price of the 3M
Excellent review as always. Love going down the rabbit hole with you.
Thanks!
Thank you
Thanks for the review. You and GPLama are my go-to for all things sports tech.
Nice review! I really like how you translate the features so well in terms of intentions in the feature by Tacx, how it compares, and what the user would experience and under what conditions. Incredibly helpful.
I have been a HUGE fan of how you review. Thank you so much. So intelligently done. Helps me make great decisions on how to spend my money.
Glad this came so late in the holiday season otherwise I’d be tempted to buy. I’m a big fan of erg mode workouts and great to see they’ve surpassed saris now. Price to features ratio is just off tho. I hope the first big firmware update includes race mode and WiFi -that’s got to be included but just not active, right?!? Plus no Neo climb. Can’t wait for the Kickr/Neo deep dive vid. Great vid as always Ray! 🎉
I would like to see this unit LamaLab tested.
The 2T model that you can get for 900 USD down from 1400 directly from Garmin's site is looking mighty fine right now. Given the features on the 3M version are not worth the extra 1K price tag. Already have the Zwift Hub One so not for me.
I agree with you, they needed to add something like climb functionality or something like track bike functionality for it to be worth the 2K price point, which is the price of a Wahoo Kickr plus climb simulator for reference. Even if this bike knocks it out of the park with its current functions and is able to be problem-free for the next couple of years the price point is still a major problem when compared to other trainers with it costing sometimes even 1K more than other competitors including its own trainer that its retiring.
What they needed to do is to do a complete refresh on the Tacx Neo bike lineups. The current Flux and Tacx bike trainers are looking okay vs other offerings but the Neo bike(s) are not up to par with less than ideal shifters and whatever is going on with the front console unit and the trainer unit on it is virtually the same as the 2T.
I know this is a trainer but the Sb20 is the same price at least it was during Black Friday. Wouldn’t this be a better buy? I wish you did a recap on these things for us newbies lol. I want to make sure I didn’t obsolete myself getting the Stages. Thanks DC Rainmaker for the work you do for us!
Great job Ray. I think Garmin should come out again w/ a new smart bike as the last refresh they did was not nearly as accurate as this in terms of power meter reading in ERG mode for interval workouts, which GP Lama covered and I think you did as well. Thanks again
Completely agree with Ray's point about Garmin/Tacx perhaps over-focusing on the marginal accuracy improvement gains. This is akin to what happened in the digital camera realm leading up to the iphone/smart phone era. It was a mega-pixel arms race every product cycle, and then the iPhone came out and upended much of the digital imaging paradigm. 'Good' was no longer the thing with 10% more megapixels; it was the thing with greater versatility and good enough image quality for most people. This is what Zwift has done with the Zwift Hub - they are thinking about ecosystem versatility -vs- making absolute hardware.
I own and use the Tacx Neo 1 heavily. My partner owns the Zwift Hub One-which I use as well. While the build and engineering quality isn't even close between the two, the practical day-to-day experience is not worlds apart. Plus, Zwift has been good (lately) at updating features on the platform and with their devices. For many of us who train and race, the services and ecosystem side of the equation is every bit as important as the hardware - and our expectations tend to be set by companies that deliver the most dynamic, versatile experiences at a greater frequency.
Thx for the excellent review (as always…), Actually I was expecting a new neo trainer when they started offering the 2T with some accessories for a good price, but with this new price tag I‘m gonna go for the Elite justo which is sold here in Austria for €809.- including delivery…
High accuracy mostly benefits racers. I use trainer just to have something at home during the winter. As long as it's comfortable and natural (which usually it isn't), I would be happy. Accuracy can be compensated with an external power meter, which I use Assioma anyway.
Anyone that rides a lot of short intervals will really benefit from the accuracy. Short/hard intervals will be much easier since you aren't overshooting significantly every interval.
Excellent video, makes me want to go to the next phase on this trainer , great job as always
Sticking with the discounted 2T
2 stacks for 3m is crazy man
Still have my original Tacx Neo and it still works perfectly. Rock solid purchase. I guess I could upgrade but really not sure there 's any benefit.
Thanks Ray, I'm a big Neo fan, I bought the original one, mainly as it was so quiet, currently running the 2T, but I won't be getting this, the price is stupid
Great review Ray, I’m still using my 2017 Neo it’s still Brilliant and I bought a Wahoo Climb earlier this week. They work together fine on Manual climb mode. Tacx/Garmin have missed a big opportunity here. Indoor training has never been so good and the climb and my Neo Motion plates are a game changer. When I go to update my Trainer in a year or two I’ll be going with Wahoo. Sorry Garmin!! Too expensive and not enough innovation.
Hi-would you be willing to share more details about your setup?
I also own the Tacx Neo 1 (2018) and have long wondered and wished for the ability to use a Kickr Climb Or Elite Rizer with my Neo. Everything I found online indicated that this is not possible, apparently because when fully clamped into the Neo, the Neo's axle mechanism does not allow the bike to rotate up and down.
Using the neo with a climb adjuster like this is going to wear out the droputs of your bike.
Unless you've put a plate under the neo that somehow attaches it to the frame and incorporates some kind of external pivot.
@@rivingtonandstantonyou could do this if you rotationally lock the trainer to the frame.
For example, if you put the neo on a plate that has an arm to attach to the frame, and then put a pivot between the plate and the floor. Just so the trainer rotates with the bike.
@@rivingtonandstanton no problem, I did a test ahead of time to see if the bike would pivot from the axle by simply lifting the front of the bike up by the bars to see if there was any resistance or clicking. It is smooth as silk so I grabbed a Climb on sale this week. I have sighed up for a gravel event next year and indoor training really works well for me with the exception of working the muscles in my lower back. A few years back I turned up at TDU and was reasonably fit but had back issues as most of my training was done on the flat or on Zwift. Intervals on Zwift now are great..
I suspect that the addition of the motor and additional magnets for the road feel feature add quite a bit more cost to this trainer than most people are considering. That's some serious hardware (and software) added to this trainer that most (all?) other trainers lack, and most certainly the Wahoo one that was compared to this one in another DC Rainmaker video. For many people, that hardware and those two features may not be worth the extra several hundred dollars, but they are to me, which is why I'm considering replacing my Wahoo KICKR ROLLR with one of these. Anything that can help a God-awful indoor ride feel more like I'm *actually* going for a bike ride will make it more likely that I'll get on the trainer. That downhill simulation is a huge deal to me. I hate that I have to keep pedaling going downhill in the trainer, with my displayed speed shooting through the roof even though I'm just pedaling at a normal pace with standard flat terrain resistance. DRIVES ME NUTS.
$2k USD plus I have to buy a dongle. Even worst is the derailleur clearance. I can only imagine the chances of it getting bent out of shape look high.
Smart trainers are well immersed in the market these days. There's nothing earth-shattering on offer from this trainer that justifies its price point.
As usual, great review. Thanks DC.
This would be the greatest announcement of the year if the year was 2020!🎉🎉🎉
Nice fractional update to the power and resistance management, but missing some key features. Cassettes are obsolete now, theres no reason to not have virtual shifting.
Great review, can't wait for the comparison video. Wondering where you hid this one during the Openhouse ;-) 😀
Yep. Currently they are blowing out the now obsolete Neo 2T, which I'm sure Garmin imagines people will reject in favor of the latest and greatest. Knowing what I know now, if I were faced with that dilemma, I would still choose the 2T. But hindsight is 20/20.
I have had a 2T for at least a couple of years, and it still runs as well as the day I got it. There is one niggling problem to which Ray alluded only briefly. When the rear derailleur is shifted to the innermost cog, the cage rubs against a rotating part of the Neo. Garmin provides a solution to the problem in the form of spacers that you can insert behind the freehub body. While that solves one problem, it creates another (at least for me).
Inserting the spacer(s) behind the freehub body eliminated the rubbing, but also moved the chain line. Consequently, when I'm on the small ring and shifting towards the innermost (largest) cogs, the chain contacts the outer cage plate of the front derailleur prematurely. In other words, the chain is contacting the cage plate of the front derailleur a couple of shifts before it should.
Over the last couple of years, I have engaged other Neo owners about this problem. So far, any real solution has been elusive. Consequently, I simply avoid using those cogs. This deprives me of certain gear combinations that might otherwise be desirable.
Not inserting the spacers would be ill-advised, because the part of the Neo against which the cage is rubbing spins rapidly; thereby acting like a grinder. I don't know how gentle the contact would have to be for me to feel comfortable ignoring it. I'm just surprised that, several years and another generation later, the problem still exists.
Based on the couple of reviews I've seen, it's my opinion that the best new feature on the Neo is the handle - just as it was when Wahoo improved the one on the KICKR.
I believe I paid fourteen or fifteen hundred dollars when I purchased my 2T. It was at the beginning of the pandemic, and smart trainers were flying off the shelves. I was looking to replace my KICKR, which had finally stopped working. I would have replaced it, but I simply couldn't find one. Even then I thought $1500 was a lot of money, but I was desperate. Besides, it gave me an excuse for spending that much money and finding out what road-surface simulation was all about. Regardless, except for the issue I alluded to above, I have few complaints.
Are the new features on the 3M worth the inflated price? As the technology matures, I believe the price of these devices should decrease - not increase. Ray has done a good job describing the differences. What do you think?
Another awesome review. Too expensive though. I treat indoor training a lot less seriously than others perhaps. Anything over $1000 is too much to ride indoors
I treat indoor training seriously and its too expensive 😅. Joke of a price.
@@TheLazyGarden3r agreed
Praise be to the goddess of fitness it finally has a handle
3M suing Garmin for using their name without permission would be hilarious, to be honest.
My understanding is that you can use phrase if you aren't in the same marketplace or have come to the conclusion of using the name without taking inspiration from other's brandings and trademarks. 3M is a generic phrase so it would be foolish to go after others for simply using a two-letter phrase that just so happens to be theirs.
TACX could’ve sued a crap Chinese smart trainer brand a few years back for calling their model Neo but didn’t
I admit it's an amazing trainer. Super quiet, really accurate, and all the bells and whistles like motion are very nice as well. If I lived somewhere that didn't allow me to ride often safely, or perhaps in a location where the weather kept me snowed in for months at a time, I'd really consider buying one. Thankfully I live in Central Florida and there are many miles of back roads and the weather...well...it's Florida isn't it? So for now I'll stick with my cheap little Snap that has given me years of faithful service for the rare occasion I ride indoors. Perhaps some years down the road when these types of trainers reach an affordable level, I'll replace the current model. Great review though, thorough as always.
LOL, I live in Wisconsin and have been forced indoors to ride for a grand total of 4 days since the 3rd quarter of 2023. Some people are just built different, I guess.
Let’s get it in the lama lab!!!!
The physical interference on the derailleur cage at this price point is ridiculous. Kudos on the trick flywheel, but I think Wahoo still better this with their existing products.
add problems with disk brakes on non boost frames as well.
Thanks for the review DC. Always find your videos useful.
However, I think the final thoughts was a little too kind. Compared to the 2T is there a meaningful upgrade? Is this really value when compared to the alternatives? At this price it is getting into the realm of smart indoor bike territory. My 2T is still going strong after 5 years and I would say the additional movement is quite a let-down when compared to what else is out there. Based on what I've seen it does look like Garmin is late to the game, and that is coming from someone fully on their ecosystem.
I’ll skip on Tacx just because they didn’t include GP Llama in the 3M media review program.
Thoughts on the Neo 3M and the two Garmin smart bikes? Size and weight aside, how about the experience and training value. Is there one of these you deem the best price to feature option? Awesome review as usual. You are the sports gadget GOAT!
12 speed is correct if they put both or nothing ‚ they only put the 11since they run out and they got a deal. I stay with my neo 2 .. very good review
Great video, well done!!! Not sure if i would go and buy it, pretty happy with neo 2T. BUT, in case of a new gen neo bike would come along ...maybe yeasss
Great review, Ray. It's interesting to see the "practical issues" with mounting a bike and the derailleur cage. 🤷♂ Lazy engineering? 🤔
Agree with your conclusion, they should have spend time on other more useful features or also have done these features - But regardless I hope they keep the Neo 2T - This is just too expensive.
Pretty sick machine!!!
Welcher Trainer ist aus deiner Sicht leiser: der Tacx Neo 3M oder der Wahoo Kicker move?
Danke für deine tollen Videos! Mach weiter so.
With 2k I would buy Gymrail Momentum X1 rocker + 700€/$ trainer.
Gymrail offers very natural movements, bike moves freely like outdoors and doesn't feel like riding on rails. It is also adjustable for riders needs.
700€/$ trainer is still accurate enough for indoor training and inertia is also acceptable.
Seems like if you have the old one with the sliders, it doesn't really give much of a compelling reason to upgrade.
From a feel standpoint, pretty accurate. Overall accuracy of power, pretty accurate. Really the biggest gain is in ERG/structured workout mode, where it notably different/better.
I will admit to being a bit of a Garmin fan but I don't think I will ever buy any of their smart trainers. Aesthetically they have a very pleasing design but they are priced quite a bit too high when comparing features with e.g. the Wahoo trainers. And I totally agree. Why on earth are they not available in 12 speed versions?
How come GPLama isn't getting one? but you are?
🤷🏼♂️ Don’t know, that’s a question for Garmin.
In the growing eSports realm (thinking eSports Olympics here), having this sort of accuracy might make it as a potential official equipment requirement for that level of racing? Surely there will need to be a "blessed" list of eligible equipment at a minimum. Just throwing that thought out there :)
11spd is fine. At this price point a new 12spd bike is way out of the question. Why integrate the power unit? If it blows you're screwed. That they've done it and made it hard to mount the bike is weird. The lack of gen2 features is a big black mark.
That price is an immediate marketing killer. Why would they think it could sell at that price? I think they might be doing it too then discount it for the holidays
I just bought the 2, blowout pricing. I think I did well. No need for this beast in my future.
How is the 3M handling the virtual tire slip that was a big problem in previous versions (the 2T didnt completely fix it, right?)?
3:03 YUUUSSSS 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
Not sure why I'd get this for winter training versus just buying my own Caribbean island for the same $$$. 🏝
Nice if you could remote lock the motion before a sprint.
just hold the front brake on
I would buy the Neo 2t and the Saris MP1 Rocker for a sweet setup for $1800 combined...
I would like to see a flux with the neo flywheel and no side to side movement. I tried the neo once and the movement felt like falling to one side 😅
Self generation for power needs to be across all trainers
I think the only other trainer that simulates road feel is the new Magene t600 trainer. No reviews yet (it'd be nice if Ray could get his hands on one) but their crank powermeters have been very accurate and affordable, so maybe there's hope?
Huh, I hadn't noticed they were using magnets in that design. Ballsy. Will be interesting to see if it ships, but looks interesting for sure!
Just had a look at it on their website, very interesting, it has 10hz racemode direct connect over wifi and lan. And also has neodymium magnets for resistance control. GPlama will publish a review on his channel soon.
No 3M for me.
I'll _stick_ to my old trainer. Every Christmas, my eyes are _glued_ to my credit card balance.
BTW, at 15:46 is it Taylor Phinney going by ?
Seeing so many comments how they won’t be upgrading their 2T for this 3M. This isn’t a 2T update, this 3M is to compete with the Kickr Move. There is likely a 3T coming to compete with the Kickr 6.
I still use the 1st gen NEO from 2015. Why should I consider this? A handle?
My thoughts too. The one feature on any smart trainer that makes sense to upgrade for me is the Zwift Hub One with its virtual gearing. No cross training power loss, no cassette to wear out, vastly quieter.
the lateral tilt on driveside is a issue, tacx sent me offset feet to accommodate this but even then i use cardboard on driveside to offset this more. interesting pre garmin buyout i was told tacx was moving away from the wings to a more stable platform but with lateral play on the feet.
Any idea why the KICKR Bike v2 STILL doesn't have race mode?
How is the descent simulation? If it is not a really advantage i'll go for the kickr core
I had motion plates on my Neo 2 but returned them to the store because it only gave me unrealistic bouncing around on the saddle
I’m sure there’s a certain Aussie that has a name similar to GPLama that would have a good test to compliment yours???
So technically 3M in standart comes with movement plates, where for 2T you can get movement plates as accesory or as bundle and some small fixes for disk brake frames. But everything else in technical side stays the same as 2T?
While true about the motion plates, as noted in the video there are substantial changes around the power system internally, fully redesigned, which give it better accuracy and more control - even if the specs on paper (max watts/accuracy) theoretically stay the same.
After using the Inside Ride Smart rollers, I can't go back to the constraints of a trainer. The rollers are sitting right next to a Wahoo Kickr on an Inside Ride E-Flex and I always use the rollers except for workouts with lots of sprints. That ride feel on trainers is good, but the rider engagement with the rollers is a whole different level.
Available for purchase online for customers in the USA and CANADA.
You aren’t riding for to have fun or engagement; you’re riding to provide your muscles with specific stimuli to illicit an ideal physical adaptations.
I don’t get why people bother with zwift etc. just put on a structured training prog and then use that time to watch the television or get some work done on a laptop. You’re already saving time not having to ride outdoors; might as well maximise the time by doing more productive things while exercising your legs.
Any ideas when Tacx gonna update the Neo Bike?
Coming back to this a month later.... did the Erg mode responsiveness hold true regardless of what gear ratio you were using on the bike?
I really don’t see why you would buy this over the Kickr Move.
This all sounded really great until the price tbh. I have been considering upgrading from my loud, old, but working v1 kickr but for the price I'm not so sure
Did they change the case design to clear rear calipers without having to add spacers and push the rear triangle apart?
But will the 3M support virtual shifting in the future as a firmware update? I'm assuming no since there has been no mention of it.
Is there also less vibration as the tacx neo2t? If you are living in a flat it's kind of difficult with the neighbors.
The vibration noise is a very interesting topic that is never paid much attention
Perhaps it's so quiet that all you notice is the vibrations from the chain? And this will resonate through wooden floors 🤔
@@Eirikkinserdalmaybe they mean while the trainer is simulating roads like wood/gravel. I've noticed that it can resonate a bit on the 2T.
Could that be Taylor Phinney photobombing this review at 15:46?
Thank you
Sounds like I’m on my last neo considering that hefty price tag 😬
The day Garmin took over was my last neo have taken to much crap from that company
183 RPM 😵💫 Do you have someone ready to catch your kneecaps??!! I think GPLama wants you to post the trainer to him now?
you dont say of you would trade up from a Tacx Neo 2T? Im thinking not?
how is the fore-aft and side to side compared to the E-Motion Flex? thank you!
Price is for people with FU money, the differences in feature with other top smart trainer doesnt justify that number.
Does this flit all over in erg mode like the 2T? The wheel on vortex I had was more consistent in erg mode
What's up with your camera quality. Something seems off?
Do disc brake calipers still rub like on the 2T? Or did they trade that out for the derailleur contact? SMH at both of those…I have been going back and forth on a 2T versus a Kicker v6 for several weeks…probably going with the Kickr due to the Climb for the future, and the way ramp erg mode. The downhill mode on the Tacx is very intriguing though. Still can’t see this over a 2T though for 2x the cost.
IMO the downhill mode is.... useless. For that reason I never plug in my Neo . In workouts it's useless, no any better in free riding - you are sitting on the trainer and doing very little or no work on downhills - so why sit there.
Thanks for the perspective!
To late for me Garmin had good customer service in UK none better exchanging my Neo 2 t and other things etc no charge but did not know this was coming and to high a price for me anyway. Just bought Wahoo Kickr 6v 👍👍 another thing here though anyone with limited ( narrow) hall way space like me cannot buy Wahoo Kickr Move as it has a wider spacing of feet./ the old Kickr just fits. So Wahoo you lost a sale to me by making it wider don't know if I have lost out in riding comfort and pleasure or not.
the funny thing with me lately is I've dropped using erg mode for workouts and even on zwift I turn down trainer difficulty or have it completely off to do workouts. I've been thinking about replacing my gen 1 cycleops hammer but given everything maybe I'd be good just using kurt kinetic fluid again lol
A bit strange such accuracy against power meter, when for 2T they claim that it's normal to have losses of 2-5% due to losses in drivetrain (since it's being measured at hub)... well, this new 3M reads power at hub... so why it's different!? Now, how can they sustain such argument for 2T? I may be missing something though, ofc :)
Generally speaking, you'll see about 1-2% drivetrain losses, less if clean, more if dirty - between a crankset/pedal and rear of unit (wheel area), whereby the pedal should be just slightly higher.
@@Dcrainmaker thanks for your feedback... so, in your opinion, in general terms, the accuracy of 2T and 3M is similar? I own a 2T, quite happy with it tbh... but it reads ~5% lower compared to my Giant power pro power meter. Ok, I must admit that while drivetrain is not too bad, it's not perfectly clean at all times :) also, I'm not sure if power meter is really accurate... it can be reading a bit on the high side... anyway, I guess the losses are more or less within advertised accuracy ranges for both equipments...
Was that a flyby from THE Taylor Phinney at 15:47?
Figures I’d be going 3w then… that said, I’d expect his account to be verified/pro/etc, and it doesn’t show that.
Too bad we dont have a llama lab test...
Whats with the white and red LEDs on the thing?
This thing is WAY overpriced. I foresee massive price cuts in the future.
don't care about the 3M at the moment :p just want the NEO 2t to drop in price!
This looks cool, but I’m happy that I bought the neo 2t when it was on sale, sorry garmin, I have nothing but love for you but I can’t drop $2k on a trainer.
You‘re telling me they designed a trainer this expensive and a SHIMANO DURA ACE DEREILLEUR is too long and therefore rubbing against the casing? Who designed this?? It’s not like a random Ali Express Groupset won’t fit 😂😂
coz they can charge you extra for the wifi Module
can the Kickr be used without to be power plugged?
I think that's only a Tacx trick.
give me a Neo 3 without the built in motion crap and i will take that over this one anyday
untill then im more than happy with my Neo OG
Sooo ... I want to know what's the disk brake CALIPER clearance ? On my 2T I need to unscrew one of the screws of the caliper and move the caliper outside for the bike to fit. On 3M .... the rear derailleur touches the frame ... so the idiots at tacks are designing theese things using rim brake bikes ? Do the engineers HAVE a bike ? I guess they are not cyclists...
GP still talking to you? 😂
Yup, meme's be flying as always!
I get it that the wifi/ethernet dongle is separate from the trainer. If the dongle fails, I'd rather only have to replace it instead of potentially having to send in the whole trainer for repair. However, the dongle SHOULD be included as standard equipment.
Garmin probably just lost a huge potential customer base to Wahoo based on this ridiculous price point. I find Garmin do NOT care about what customers have to say , ie, over $400 for just the motion plates??? and there hasn't been any movement on price. And do we really care about how much improved they got the accuracy down to??? Not for me, sorry, not impressed!