Wanted to add another fact. When the Chinese invented the compass in ancient times, the way it was set up is it actually pointed South (unlike when the West adapted it and their version pointed North). Thus, South was "front" and North was "back".
Oh boy!!! Can't wait to see you dive into this one! 中 it's probably one of my favorite character etymologies since it's just pretty cool to see 中 originally depicting some kind of wind instrument or flag.
@@SwedishSinologyNerd No no it's fine!! I actually quite agree with the explanation presented, even though commonly speaking I'm agreeing with the one where it depicts a type of military flag with some sort of gong in the middle. So I guess the explanation I'm going with is not too far off on what you explained ^^
@SwedishSinologyNerd Sure, thank you for responding. For the placement of the throne, I refer you to an edict issued by the Liang monarch: 天監六年詔曰：「頃代以來，元日朝畢，次會羣臣，則移就西壁下，東向坐。求之古義，王者讌萬國，唯應南面，何更居東面？」於是御坐南向，以西方為上。皇太子以下，在北壁坐者，悉西邊東向。尚書令以下在南方坐者，悉東邊西向。舊元日，御坐東向，酒壺在東壁下。御坐既南向，乃詔壺於南蘭下。 It says that after the officials (facing north, in the courtyard) greet the monarch (facing south, in the hall), they move into the hall for an audience. At this point the monarch moves to the west side wall and sits facing the east. But after the edict, the Liang monarch repositions the throne to face south instead, and identifies the west as the side of honour (位上). Thus we know that the throne used to be located on the west side of the hall and faced east, while the east side was occupied by a wine vessel. Even after the monarch repositioned the throne, the west side is still given to the crown prince, who obviously outranks the other subjects. I agree with the general idea that the east side is associated with hosts and the west, guests. But there is one notable & attested exception as cited above: in the royal court the monarch sits on the west side instead of the east. Surely the monarch must be the "host" in his own court, but that the subjects/officials, contrary to cultural norms, take the host's side needs to be explained with a reasonable motivation. It seems to me at least that this motivation can only come from an avoidance of occupying the place of honour, which is instead surrendered to the monarch despite his host-like position. It is asserted the idea that the Chinese often arrange things like clothes for the dead in ways that are opposite to the living, but I would suggest that sometimes these records more resemble philosophical musings than actual practice, in which the living and the dead are often conceived of as a continuum (such as in funerary practice where the newly deceased spends months, if not years, transitioning into the role of a spirit). Given very extensive religious practice that seeks to connect the living with the dead, particularly before the Chin period, I would personally characterize the ancient relationship between the familial living and dead as one more of respect than aversion. Relating to the auspiciousness of the west as a cardinal direction, 歸西 must refer to a Buddhist idea that the dead go to India, which is to the west of China, as the land of the Buddha. To say someone has "returned to the west" is to suggest they have an auspicious death. Death is not always inauspicious in Chinese culture, as we see in multiple bronze inscriptions a prayers for 霝冬 "a good death". Since we're talking about the etymology of Chinese characters, I think it would be fair if we placed more emphasis on cultural notions dating from the etymological period.
I know very little about chinese or etymology as a whole but this video is very well made! i find it interesting how both the characters for east and west have a "basket" character related to them. Maybe related to how the Sun rises and sets? It has to go somewhere, maybe they thought it went into some kind of container
Nice video! U definitely put a great deal of effort into it! Even as a Chinese native I still learnt a lot ❤ Still I think there is somthing I'd like to point out (Maybe not 100% correct, just for reference) 1. at 1:39 u meantioned the sound of 東 in OC, but it seems that u mixed up Glottal Stop /ʔ/ and Pharyngeal /ʕ/, in OC it is actually Pharyngeal. (actually all 4 words have the same problem lol) The reason of making this reconstruction: A group of words in OC are usually classify as 三等字 in middle Chinese records, so the others are therefore called 非三等字 in OC studies. In middle Chinese 三等字 are characterized with a /i/ or palatalized consonent before the main vowel. However, there is a big problem: in old Chinese, 三等字 are evidently more commonlly used in basic words like 之、其、者、也 etc, which means that 三等字 were less iconic (or less marked? sry for my poor English) than 非三等字 in OC, therefore instead of reconstracting a /i/ for 三等字 in OC just like MC, it seems more reasonable to mark 非三等字 with something else to explain the evolution. Of course, there is much other evidence, such as the phonetic correspondences between Sanskrit and Chinese around the turn of the Common Era. Notice that if u see a /ʕ/ in the middle of a reconstracted OC syllable (非三等), it is usually a pharyngealising mark; but if u see that at the end of a syllable (usually for 上声), it is usually a glottal stop /ʔ/. Don't mix them up XD 2. at 19:05 u meantioned the sound of 中 in OC, but u prononounced it as /tʰuŋ/, which is not appropriate. In Old Chinese, there was a strict three-way distinction among stops: aspirated voiceless, unaspirated voiceless, and voiced sounds. ps. your pronouncaition of mandarin is pretty nice! 👍
This channel has a bright future. I'd enjoy watching a video about those "chinese furigana", if you know what I mean. I've first seen those on this video.
Thank you! And they’re called zhuyin fuhao, or more commonly, bopomofo. They’re an older alternative to pinyin based on Chinese characters. Sadly they never really caught on outside of Taiwan, but they are in many ways superior to pinyin. I can for sure make a video on them in the future!
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Actully they are demonstrated in mainland China's dictionaries, however they were not taught in school, and in daily life nobody uses them, which is truly sad. Actually I am not familiar with them either lol
@@TuLoPhung Well, yes they TECHNICALLY exist on the mainland but since I hardly ever saw anyone using them I think it's fair to say they didn't catch on lol
Wooooo so excited to see another video!! 8:17 The pictographic quality of older 汉字 never ceases to amaze me. How is què rendered in modern characters? 14:06 You drew this? It’s so cute 😭 Thanks for all the effort you’re putting in your vids! 17:57 Yoooo what did I do to deserve that mention 🥹🥹🥹🥹 It made my day! 中 is such an interesting character. Before you mentioned the drums, I was sure that it represented a line going through the *middle* of a square-a very abstract and simple representation for this concept… It seemed like such a straightforward explanation! I remember seeing the Oracle Bone Script versions and being confused. Some of the Chu variants are so unlike 中 that I’m surprised they were deciphered correctly. Like the ones with 人 on top! Looks like something completely different. Super interesting to see how 中 is related to one’s bellybutton-that’s what the Ancient Greeks said about Greece too! More precisely, they thought that Delphi was the navel of the Earth (omphalos). And, similarly, the Chinese also use 中 to refer to their own country! Waiting for more vids, if you’re still planning on making them! In the meantime, I’ve been reading about the Nuosu script and Dongba characters…
Glad you liked the video! Unfortunately it'll likely be the last (long) one for a while at least since I'm moving house and starting a new job next week, I'll get back to videomaking once I'm settled in. And hey, I liked the expression "brushstrokable" and just wanted to give credit ^^ I think a lot of ancient people equated the navel with middleness, though the meaning don't seem to have survived in Chinese outside of compounds. Also, nitpick: the 人 character on top in the Chu script is the "flag radical" I talk about in the vid, or rather the right half of it (looks like [方人] in standardized script).
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Ohh I get it, it’s like 㫃 or, more precisely, half of it! Oh well haha in this case my 人 is more like a way to visually represent it 😅 No worries about not being able to make videos for the time being. Focus on the other stuff first, and I’ll be happy to see you in the comment sections of your new video again! Not many people make in-depth content on Chinese characters as you do here on RUclips, so we’ll all be super happy whenever you decide to upload again! But, as I said, focus on your priorities first. PS: Just found out that 㫃 becomes 𭤨 when used as a component and, according to Wiktionary, the latter is used in HK for 於 as well, which is thus reanalysed as ⿸𭤨⺀ instead of ⿰方仒. P-PS: Your part about how folk etymologies influence character shapes is super interesting… Basically the 日 between 木 almost became true in some of the Chu manuscripts! I wonder how many 汉字 have changed shape due to popular myths about their origins…
I think Baxter and Sagart's /pˤək/ is a much more plausible OC pronunciation for 北. The word and words derived from 北 all have final consonant stops in modern Sinitic languages that preserve more MC phonology, and 北 itself is most likely pok in MC. It would make little sense for it to start without entering tone and get a final consonant stop for no reason at all.
Ah, I knew I'd forgotten something! Yeah so obv. there was a final stop in OC, I only gave the PST root form "to carry on the back" and neglected to give the OC forms dervide from it. That's my b. Then again, it gives me material to do one of them correction vids down the line, so if you spot any other mistakes drop me a line! =)
I love your channel. I am ethnic Chinese and love etymologies. Unfortunately, I speak English better and English resources for Chinese etymologies are scarce, so am happy that I discovered your channel.
Fun fact: 仲 is also used in Cantonese to mean 'still' and 'even more', as in '你仲塞緊車啊？' ('You're still stuck in traffic?') and '佢仲高啲添' ('They're even taller')! This has no relation to the original eymology though as the character is only borrowed for this usage because of its pronunciation
I was originally planning to include that bit, but I couldn't find a good explanation where the word came from so to avoid confusion I left it out ^^;;;
@@TuLoPhung I'm only beginner level at Cantonese but it seems there are quite a few colloquial words that have unclear origins? Though I suppose that's true for every version of Chinese once you get to the spoken language
@@SwedishSinologyNerd上中下、前中后、东南西北中、左中右…… The common thread here is 中: it sits in the middle of *everything*. You can adopt any directional framework and even weave in infinite multidimensional matrices… 中 will always remain. And then we have 中国… 🚩😎
@@ChristianJiang Actually 🤓 the term 中國 as an autonym for China is a relatively new concept, and actually a piece of Qing era Manchu propaganda ("All the central territories are one family, and the Emperor is the father") to try and legitamize their rule. It had limited success but the name stuck, probably for lack of an alternative, since all other dynasties usually referred to China as "Great [insert dynasty here]".
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Haha I was trying to be sarcastic but it didn’t work as well in writing. But I learnt something new! I knew 中国 is a recent term, but not that recent! Yet it was unanimously adopted by Japan, Korea and Vietnam as their go-to way to refer to China... Interesting… Does that mean that Japan’s Chūgoku region’s use of 中国 predates that of China itself?!! Mind blown 🤯
The direction of the most important person in Chinese culture is the west. The royal throne is situated at the west side of the hall （西壁下）, not the east. The deceased lies in repose at the west (賓階）. The west side is associated with the guest and is the place of honour. 😮
Thanks for your comment! I suppose it depends on who you consider the most important in a social setting, but judging by ancient Chinese texts, I'd say the host (東) usually outranks the guest (西). I do not consider the placement of the dead to be a valid argument since Chinese often arrange the dead in opposition to the living (burial clothes are often tied in the "opposite" way for example). You could even make an argument that the west is an outright inauspicious direction, since one euphemism for death in Chinese is 歸西 or "return to the west", ie the supposed divine realm in the western mountains inhabited by The Empress dowager of the West, as well as it's connection with disease-causing winds. I'd like a source for the throne placement, since the throne's I've seen usually place the throne in the centre of the hall, the hall usually being alligned with the front to the south and back to the north.
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Sure, thank you for responding. For the placement of the throne, I refer you to an edict issued by the Liang monarch: 天監六年詔曰：「頃代以來，元日朝畢，次會羣臣，則移就西壁下，東向坐。求之古義，王者讌萬國，唯應南面，何更居東面？」於是御坐南向，以西方為上。皇太子以下，在北壁坐者，悉西邊東向。尚書令以下在南方坐者，悉東邊西向。舊元日，御坐東向，酒壺在東壁下。御坐既南向，乃詔壺於南蘭下。 It says that after the officials (facing north, in the courtyard) greet the monarch (facing south, in the hall), they move into the hall for an audience. At this point the monarch moves to the west side wall and sits facing the east. But after the edict, the Liang monarch repositions the throne to face south instead, and identifies the west as the side of honour (位上). Thus we know that the throne used to be located on the west side of the hall and faced east, while the east side was occupied by a wine vessel. Even after the monarch repositioned the throne, the west side is still given to the crown prince, who obviously outranks the other subjects. I agree with the general idea that the east side is associated with hosts and the west, guests. But there is one notable & attested exception as cited above: in the royal court the monarch sits on the west side instead of the east. Surely the monarch must be the "host" in his own court, but that the subjects/officials, contrary to cultural norms, take the host's side needs to be explained with a reasonable motivation. It seems to me at least that this motivation can only come from an avoidance of occupying the place of honour, which is instead surrendered to the monarch despite his host-like position. It is asserted the idea that the Chinese often arrange things like clothes for the dead in ways that are opposite to the living, but I would suggest that sometimes these records more resemble philosophical musings than actual practice, in which the living and the dead are often conceived of as a continuum (such as in funerary practice where the newly deceased spends months, if not years, transitioning into the role of a spirit). Given very extensive religious practice that seeks to connect the living with the dead, particularly before the Chin period, I would personally characterize the ancient relationship between the familial living and dead as one more of respect than aversion. Relating to the auspiciousness of the west as a cardinal direction, 歸西 must refer to a Buddhist idea that the dead go to India, which is to the west of China, as the land of the Buddha. To say someone has "returned to the west" is to suggest they have an auspicious death. Death is not always inauspicious in Chinese culture, as we see in multiple bronze inscriptions a prayers for 霝冬 "a good death". Since we're talking about the etymology of Chinese characters, I think it would be fair if we placed more emphasis on cultural notions dating from the etymological period.
I've never once questioned why 敗北 is written with 北, and I have no idea why I didn't ever think it was weird. But now I don't have to, thanks Also I didn't that 仲 had a unique usage in Japanese that is not found in Chinese. In Japanese 仲 (read 'naka', same as 中) refers to relationships between people
Ah, that sounds like a Japanese kokkun, it's really cool how the JKV languages to varying extents look at Chinese characters and go "Yeah, we know it means that but it LOOKS like it should mean THIS so we gon' use it for this!" And questioning how and why languages do what they do is just how my brainaddled mind works. It refuses to accept any new info unless it gets access to the Deepest Lore about it xD
Det hade varit väldigt kul om du som svensk sinolognörd gjorde en video om Karlgren, kan inte tänka mig att han inte är väldigt bekant ;). Ändå lite kul att en svensk gjort ett sådant enormt bidrag till kinesisk språkforskning :)
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Btw, does that mean you're not a proponent of the theory that the Chinese word for "horse" is from Indo-European? There are holes in it but I don't see any other plausible theory
@@johanngaiusisinwingazuluah2116 It very well could be, but afaik, the word entered PST via some central asian language like Mongolic or Turkic, of course it's possible that THOSE languages got it from PIE but I haven't found any evidence for a direct PIE link with the Chinese word (at this time).
My thing about chinese is . Don't certain characters have double etymologies ? One for the character itsself and one for the sound . Wouldn't this make chinese etymology in general very complicated ?
@@Капка.покапка depends on the word/character but generally yes, or at least more complex than IE etymology. It doesn’t help that (as I’ve pointed out in some videos) the ancient Chinese believed that near-homophone words must be related somehow, so you get a lot of extra threads mixed in there. One fun tripod of related words/glyphs are 聲聖聽 which all seem to be etymologically related and also started out written with the same character. Another set is 問聞婚昏 which are two sets of etymologies (ask/hear, evening/marriage (weddings took place in the evening)) interwoven by similar pronunciations meaning they were at one point used interchangeably. Very fun when you read excavated texts! XD
Oh there're a LOT of Swedes with an unhealthy obsession with China, a couple of other greats are Göran Malmqvist and my old teacher Michael Schoenhals. I'm but a midget standing on the shoulder of giants ^^
Wanted to add another fact.
When the Chinese invented the compass in ancient times, the way it was set up is it actually pointed South (unlike when the West adapted it and their version pointed North).
Thus, South was "front" and North was "back".
Oh boy!!! Can't wait to see you dive into this one!
中 it's probably one of my favorite character etymologies since it's just pretty cool to see 中 originally depicting some kind of wind instrument or flag.
I hope you liked the vid, even though the explanation for 中 was a bit different ^^
@@SwedishSinologyNerd No no it's fine!! I actually quite agree with the explanation presented, even though commonly speaking I'm agreeing with the one where it depicts a type of military flag with some sort of gong in the middle. So I guess the explanation I'm going with is not too far off on what you explained ^^
I'm absolutely using "brush-strokable" from now on. Excellent video as always!
@SwedishSinologyNerd Sure, thank you for responding. For the placement of the throne, I refer you to an edict issued by the Liang monarch: 天監六年詔曰：「頃代以來，元日朝畢，次會羣臣，則移就西壁下，東向坐。求之古義，王者讌萬國，唯應南面，何更居東面？」於是御坐南向，以西方為上。皇太子以下，在北壁坐者，悉西邊東向。尚書令以下在南方坐者，悉東邊西向。舊元日，御坐東向，酒壺在東壁下。御坐既南向，乃詔壺於南蘭下。
It says that after the officials (facing north, in the courtyard) greet the monarch (facing south, in the hall), they move into the hall for an audience. At this point the monarch moves to the west side wall and sits facing the east. But after the edict, the Liang monarch repositions the throne to face south instead, and identifies the west as the side of honour (位上). Thus we know that the throne used to be located on the west side of the hall and faced east, while the east side was occupied by a wine vessel. Even after the monarch repositioned the throne, the west side is still given to the crown prince, who obviously outranks the other subjects.
I agree with the general idea that the east side is associated with hosts and the west, guests. But there is one notable & attested exception as cited above: in the royal court the monarch sits on the west side instead of the east. Surely the monarch must be the "host" in his own court, but that the subjects/officials, contrary to cultural norms, take the host's side needs to be explained with a reasonable motivation. It seems to me at least that this motivation can only come from an avoidance of occupying the place of honour, which is instead surrendered to the monarch despite his host-like position.
It is asserted the idea that the Chinese often arrange things like clothes for the dead in ways that are opposite to the living, but I would suggest that sometimes these records more resemble philosophical musings than actual practice, in which the living and the dead are often conceived of as a continuum (such as in funerary practice where the newly deceased spends months, if not years, transitioning into the role of a spirit). Given very extensive religious practice that seeks to connect the living with the dead, particularly before the Chin period, I would personally characterize the ancient relationship between the familial living and dead as one more of respect than aversion.
Relating to the auspiciousness of the west as a cardinal direction, 歸西 must refer to a Buddhist idea that the dead go to India, which is to the west of China, as the land of the Buddha. To say someone has "returned to the west" is to suggest they have an auspicious death. Death is not always inauspicious in Chinese culture, as we see in multiple bronze inscriptions a prayers for 霝冬
"a good death". Since we're talking about the etymology of Chinese characters, I think it would be fair if we placed more emphasis on cultural notions dating from the etymological period.
I know very little about chinese or etymology as a whole but this video is very well made! i find it interesting how both the characters for east and west have a "basket" character related to them. Maybe related to how the Sun rises and sets? It has to go somewhere, maybe they thought it went into some kind of container
Folk-etymologically, it is related to “stuff” 東西
i have to sneak my phone upstairs and watch it in bed secretly to see this live
We salute your dedication to learning good sir! o7
Swedish Sinology Nerd. lt's very interesting to see your interpretation on ancient Chinese characters. Good Work.
Nice video! U definitely put a great deal of effort into it! Even as a Chinese native I still learnt a lot ❤
Still I think there is somthing I'd like to point out (Maybe not 100% correct, just for reference)
1. at 1:39 u meantioned the sound of 東 in OC, but it seems that u mixed up Glottal Stop /ʔ/ and Pharyngeal /ʕ/, in OC it is actually Pharyngeal. (actually all 4 words have the same problem lol)
The reason of making this reconstruction:
A group of words in OC are usually classify as 三等字 in middle Chinese records, so the others are therefore called 非三等字 in OC studies. In middle Chinese 三等字 are characterized with a /i/ or palatalized consonent before the main vowel. However, there is a big problem: in old Chinese, 三等字 are evidently more commonlly used in basic words like 之、其、者、也 etc, which means that 三等字 were less iconic (or less marked? sry for my poor English) than 非三等字 in OC, therefore instead of reconstracting a /i/ for 三等字 in OC just like MC, it seems more reasonable to mark 非三等字 with something else to explain the evolution. Of course, there is much other evidence, such as the phonetic correspondences between Sanskrit and Chinese around the turn of the Common Era.
Notice that if u see a /ʕ/ in the middle of a reconstracted OC syllable (非三等), it is usually a pharyngealising mark; but if u see that at the end of a syllable (usually for 上声), it is usually a glottal stop /ʔ/. Don't mix them up XD
2. at 19:05 u meantioned the sound of 中 in OC, but u prononounced it as /tʰuŋ/, which is not appropriate. In Old Chinese, there was a strict three-way distinction among stops: aspirated voiceless, unaspirated voiceless, and voiced sounds.
ps. your pronouncaition of mandarin is pretty nice! 👍
多蒙斧正！第一個問題，其實是不寧將濁咽擦音與聲門塞音的符號搞混了，露怯露怯，好尷尬 囧……
第二個問題，這個問題另一位觀衆者已經提過，鯫生在講”中“的時候其實沒有提到該字上古漢語的發音，只説了其原始漢藏語的發音，實在沒注意。
聖人云：三人行必有我師焉。因爲不寧算是非專業愛好者而已，出現義務恐怕無法百分之百避免，不過我很榮幸得到這個學習機會，以後要多注意，并且也許將來每年終可以發一個”錯誤糾正“視頻，總結每年所發的視頻含有的不足 哈哈哈。
PS：您對於上古漢語似乎理解恨透，敢問有無能推薦的資料？愚生一般參考Baxter-Sagart的重建。
PPS：您英文倍兒棒，能將這樣專業題寫的非常清楚！👍👍👍
This channel has a bright future. I'd enjoy watching a video about those "chinese furigana", if you know what I mean. I've first seen those on this video.
Thank you! And they’re called zhuyin fuhao, or more commonly, bopomofo. They’re an older alternative to pinyin based on Chinese characters. Sadly they never really caught on outside of Taiwan, but they are in many ways superior to pinyin. I can for sure make a video on them in the future!
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Actully they are demonstrated in mainland China's dictionaries, however they were not taught in school, and in daily life nobody uses them, which is truly sad. Actually I am not familiar with them either lol
@@TuLoPhung Well, yes they TECHNICALLY exist on the mainland but since I hardly ever saw anyone using them I think it's fair to say they didn't catch on lol
Birdieeeeeee :D (my brain trying to pay attention while you explain west)
Oh dear, well whatever keeps my viwers' dopamine flowing I guess! xD
Wooooo so excited to see another video!!
8:17 The pictographic quality of older 汉字 never ceases to amaze me. How is què rendered in modern characters?
14:06 You drew this? It’s so cute 😭 Thanks for all the effort you’re putting in your vids!
17:57 Yoooo what did I do to deserve that mention 🥹🥹🥹🥹 It made my day!
中 is such an interesting character. Before you mentioned the drums, I was sure that it represented a line going through the *middle* of a square-a very abstract and simple representation for this concept… It seemed like such a straightforward explanation! I remember seeing the Oracle Bone Script versions and being confused. Some of the Chu variants are so unlike 中 that I’m surprised they were deciphered correctly. Like the ones with 人 on top! Looks like something completely different.
Super interesting to see how 中 is related to one’s bellybutton-that’s what the Ancient Greeks said about Greece too! More precisely, they thought that Delphi was the navel of the Earth (omphalos). And, similarly, the Chinese also use 中 to refer to their own country!
Waiting for more vids, if you’re still planning on making them! In the meantime, I’ve been reading about the Nuosu script and Dongba characters…
Glad you liked the video! Unfortunately it'll likely be the last (long) one for a while at least since I'm moving house and starting a new job next week, I'll get back to videomaking once I'm settled in.
And hey, I liked the expression "brushstrokable" and just wanted to give credit ^^
I think a lot of ancient people equated the navel with middleness, though the meaning don't seem to have survived in Chinese outside of compounds.
Also, nitpick: the 人 character on top in the Chu script is the "flag radical" I talk about in the vid, or rather the right half of it (looks like [方人] in standardized script).
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Ohh I get it, it’s like 㫃 or, more precisely, half of it! Oh well haha in this case my 人 is more like a way to visually represent it 😅
No worries about not being able to make videos for the time being. Focus on the other stuff first, and I’ll be happy to see you in the comment sections of your new video again!
Not many people make in-depth content on Chinese characters as you do here on RUclips, so we’ll all be super happy whenever you decide to upload again! But, as I said, focus on your priorities first.
PS: Just found out that 㫃 becomes 𭤨 when used as a component and, according to Wiktionary, the latter is used in HK for 於 as well, which is thus reanalysed as ⿸𭤨⺀ instead of ⿰方仒.
P-PS: Your part about how folk etymologies influence character shapes is super interesting… Basically the 日 between 木 almost became true in some of the Chu manuscripts! I wonder how many 汉字 have changed shape due to popular myths about their origins…
10:20 sounds like you pronounced the 形 in 象形 as 4th tone. It's meant to be 2nd right?
Ooops! You're absolutely right, well there's always something that flies under the radar ^^
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Regardless, thanks for the video. It was fascinating to watch.
I think Baxter and Sagart's /pˤək/ is a much more plausible OC pronunciation for 北. The word and words derived from 北 all have final consonant stops in modern Sinitic languages that preserve more MC phonology, and 北 itself is most likely pok in MC. It would make little sense for it to start without entering tone and get a final consonant stop for no reason at all.
Ah, I knew I'd forgotten something! Yeah so obv. there was a final stop in OC, I only gave the PST root form "to carry on the back" and neglected to give the OC forms dervide from it. That's my b. Then again, it gives me material to do one of them correction vids down the line, so if you spot any other mistakes drop me a line! =)
I love your channel. I am ethnic Chinese and love etymologies. Unfortunately, I speak English better and English resources for Chinese etymologies are scarce, so am happy that I discovered your channel.
Fun fact: 仲 is also used in Cantonese to mean 'still' and 'even more', as in '你仲塞緊車啊？' ('You're still stuck in traffic?') and '佢仲高啲添' ('They're even taller')! This has no relation to the original eymology though as the character is only borrowed for this usage because of its pronunciation
I was originally planning to include that bit, but I couldn't find a good explanation where the word came from so to avoid confusion I left it out ^^;;;
重
Unlike other examples meantioned in the video, the origin of 仲 in cantonese is stil not clear
@@TuLoPhung I'm only beginner level at Cantonese but it seems there are quite a few colloquial words that have unclear origins? Though I suppose that's true for every version of Chinese once you get to the spoken language
Yes papa, feed me more etymology juices
and also 2[maybe 3?] vertical directions: 上、下 [中?]
That'll have to be a sequel: 上下、内外、左右、前後
@@SwedishSinologyNerd上中下、前中后、东南西北中、左中右…… The common thread here is 中: it sits in the middle of *everything*. You can adopt any directional framework and even weave in infinite multidimensional matrices… 中 will always remain. And then we have 中国… 🚩😎
@@ChristianJiang Actually 🤓 the term 中國 as an autonym for China is a relatively new concept, and actually a piece of Qing era Manchu propaganda ("All the central territories are one family, and the Emperor is the father") to try and legitamize their rule. It had limited success but the name stuck, probably for lack of an alternative, since all other dynasties usually referred to China as "Great [insert dynasty here]".
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Haha I was trying to be sarcastic but it didn’t work as well in writing. But I learnt something new! I knew 中国 is a recent term, but not that recent! Yet it was unanimously adopted by Japan, Korea and Vietnam as their go-to way to refer to China... Interesting… Does that mean that Japan’s Chūgoku region’s use of 中国 predates that of China itself?!! Mind blown 🤯
The direction of the most important person in Chinese culture is the west. The royal throne is situated at the west side of the hall （西壁下）, not the east. The deceased lies in repose at the west (賓階）. The west side is associated with the guest and is the place of honour. 😮
Thanks for your comment! I suppose it depends on who you consider the most important in a social setting, but judging by ancient Chinese texts, I'd say the host (東) usually outranks the guest (西). I do not consider the placement of the dead to be a valid argument since Chinese often arrange the dead in opposition to the living (burial clothes are often tied in the "opposite" way for example). You could even make an argument that the west is an outright inauspicious direction, since one euphemism for death in Chinese is 歸西 or "return to the west", ie the supposed divine realm in the western mountains inhabited by The Empress dowager of the West, as well as it's connection with disease-causing winds. I'd like a source for the throne placement, since the throne's I've seen usually place the throne in the centre of the hall, the hall usually being alligned with the front to the south and back to the north.
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Sure, thank you for responding. For the placement of the throne, I refer you to an edict issued by the Liang monarch: 天監六年詔曰：「頃代以來，元日朝畢，次會羣臣，則移就西壁下，東向坐。求之古義，王者讌萬國，唯應南面，何更居東面？」於是御坐南向，以西方為上。皇太子以下，在北壁坐者，悉西邊東向。尚書令以下在南方坐者，悉東邊西向。舊元日，御坐東向，酒壺在東壁下。御坐既南向，乃詔壺於南蘭下。
It says that after the officials (facing north, in the courtyard) greet the monarch (facing south, in the hall), they move into the hall for an audience. At this point the monarch moves to the west side wall and sits facing the east. But after the edict, the Liang monarch repositions the throne to face south instead, and identifies the west as the side of honour (位上). Thus we know that the throne used to be located on the west side of the hall and faced east, while the east side was occupied by a wine vessel. Even after the monarch repositioned the throne, the west side is still given to the crown prince, who obviously outranks the other subjects.
I agree with the general idea that the east side is associated with hosts and the west, guests. But there is one notable & attested exception as cited above: in the royal court the monarch sits on the west side instead of the east. Surely the monarch must be the "host" in his own court, but that the subjects/officials, contrary to cultural norms, take the host's side needs to be explained with a reasonable motivation. It seems to me at least that this motivation can only come from an avoidance of occupying the place of honour, which is instead surrendered to the monarch despite his host-like position.
It is asserted the idea that the Chinese often arrange things like clothes for the dead in ways that are opposite to the living, but I would suggest that sometimes these records more resemble philosophical musings than actual practice, in which the living and the dead are often conceived of as a continuum (such as in funerary practice where the newly deceased spends months, if not years, transitioning into the role of a spirit). Given very extensive religious practice that seeks to connect the living with the dead, particularly before the Chin period, I would personally characterize the ancient relationship between the familial living and dead as one more of respect than aversion.
Relating to the auspiciousness of the west as a cardinal direction, 歸西 must refer to a Buddhist idea that the dead go to India, which is to the west of China, as the land of the Buddha. To say someone has "returned to the west" is to suggest they have an auspicious death. Death is not always inauspicious in Chinese culture, as we see in multiple bronze inscriptions a prayers for 霝冬
"a good death". Since we're talking about the etymology of Chinese characters, I think it would be fair if we placed more emphasis on cultural notions dating from the etymological period.
I made a response here. Did RUclips eat it?
@@y11971alex possibly, I didn’t see it
@@SwedishSinologyNerd OK let me get home and repost it.
I've never once questioned why 敗北 is written with 北, and I have no idea why I didn't ever think it was weird. But now I don't have to, thanks
Also I didn't that 仲 had a unique usage in Japanese that is not found in Chinese. In Japanese 仲 (read 'naka', same as 中) refers to relationships between people
Ah, that sounds like a Japanese kokkun, it's really cool how the JKV languages to varying extents look at Chinese characters and go "Yeah, we know it means that but it LOOKS like it should mean THIS so we gon' use it for this!"
And questioning how and why languages do what they do is just how my brainaddled mind works. It refuses to accept any new info unless it gets access to the Deepest Lore about it xD
Det hade varit väldigt kul om du som svensk sinolognörd gjorde en video om Karlgren, kan inte tänka mig att han inte är väldigt bekant ;). Ändå lite kul att en svensk gjort ett sådant enormt bidrag till kinesisk språkforskning :)
Jag hade tänkt göra en video på ämnet ”varför så många svenskar är förtjusta i Kina” men det ligger långt i framtiden xD
My favorite bag character gotta be 囊 though
I thought you were about to imply that the Chinese word for East has an Indo-European cognate
I will only imply stuff if I find evidence to support it! So you might hear those words in the videos on 車 and 蜜!
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Holy shit we're getting into deep Wanderwort lore, I was NOT expecting that
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Btw, does that mean you're not a proponent of the theory that the Chinese word for "horse" is from Indo-European? There are holes in it but I don't see any other plausible theory
@@johanngaiusisinwingazuluah2116 It very well could be, but afaik, the word entered PST via some central asian language like Mongolic or Turkic, of course it's possible that THOSE languages got it from PIE but I haven't found any evidence for a direct PIE link with the Chinese word (at this time).
how would 'horse' or 'koń' be similiar to ma/马?
My thing about chinese is .
Don't certain characters have double etymologies ? One for the character itsself and one for the sound . Wouldn't this make chinese etymology in general very complicated ?
@@Капка.покапка depends on the word/character but generally yes, or at least more complex than IE etymology. It doesn’t help that (as I’ve pointed out in some videos) the ancient Chinese believed that near-homophone words must be related somehow, so you get a lot of extra threads mixed in there. One fun tripod of related words/glyphs are 聲聖聽 which all seem to be etymologically related and also started out written with the same character. Another set is 問聞婚昏 which are two sets of etymologies (ask/hear, evening/marriage (weddings took place in the evening)) interwoven by similar pronunciations meaning they were at one point used interchangeably. Very fun when you read excavated texts! XD
I only knew of Bernhard Karlgren, but there are actually more Swedish sinologists; Cecilia Lindqvist and YOU💪💪💪💪🙏
Oh there're a LOT of Swedes with an unhealthy obsession with China, a couple of other greats are Göran Malmqvist and my old teacher Michael Schoenhals. I'm but a midget standing on the shoulder of giants ^^
Fin fact 中 is a part of ny courtesy name 仁中(◡ ω ◡)
Oh, neat! 賤字”武成“. Any story behind your courtesy name?
@@SwedishSinologyNerd a friend of mine gave it he chose it from the Analects, meaning "virtue within"
@@TheTTTtv That's good! Very traditional. Mine is pretty much a semantic-similarity one based off my regular Chinese name
ok nice
next we need numbers
Numbers will come sometime in the future! It'll be a bigass video tho lol
二 次
swedishsinologynerd more like freakysinologynerd
Plum in a Golden Vase is OBJECTIVELY a better novel than Dream of a Red Chamber
Well I missed the first 2 so I'm fine 😂
巽方、坤方、乾方、乾方