This was really interesting. To think that roasting manually without the aid of software was the norm for many years is kind of mind-boggling. That said, logging software (even if I can't use it with a Behmor) definitely provides valuable feedback and can help establish consistency. Great work as always, Mike!
Hi Dustin, yep, logging software does provide valuable feedback and if you have it you should use it. I was talking with Trevor (Sabbath Coffee Roasters) about this somewhere in the comments here. I asked him when the last time his software stopped working and he had to start tracking mid roast manually. He responded.... "this past week". That was my point. We need to be ready to do it manually and practicing helps us use our senses and think about what is happening with our roast. As you could see, doing it by hand was more effort but in the long run, I will be ready if/when I need to roast without the software. Thanks for your comment and encouragement Dustin. I appreciate it.
KInd of like winemaking, people have made wine for thousands of years and now they use lab analysis to make what we call lab wines that are meeting what people think are perfect criteria alcohol and acidity wise and in regards to residual sugar, but i think its stupid and a waste of time, if a wine tastes good much like a cup of coffee who cares about the numbers its about how you perceive it.
A most excellent video Mike. In all the roasting videos I have watched where a true drum roaster is being used, I have NEVER seen it done without logging software. This video is most important to me at this time as I transition to a new roaster. You have now convinced me to truly manual roast when I first start out. I have to get a feel for this new machine, and using logging software might actually hinder that. The logging apps do a great job at automatically and accurately recording temps and graphing them in real time. But a real strong point for them is in calculating ROR, and maybe more importantly anticipating temps down the road. Seeing an anticipated future temp can allow earlier smaller corrections to be made, keeping the roast more in control. Right? BUT for learning the feel of a roaster, manually recording data and performing the calculations might be the best thing to do. One really encouraging thing you said (from 11:30 to 11:50) ended with, "and you don't need software to do that." Yes!! It seems computers and their software can make things easier for us, but it's not a good thing when we become dependent on them. Computers and their apps will fail. It is not a matter of "if", but rather "when" and "how" they fail. Each of us has to consider what we would do if our computer screen went blank literally in the middle of the roast. Could we still end up with a decent roast? (Now I would LOVE to see someone make a video like that!) So as I season my new roaster, I think I am going to act like the roast is a typical roast that I will be (trying to be) controlling. All the manufacturer wants from the roast is for it to go through second crack (2C) to yield lots of oil from the beans. I never let any of my roasts go near 2C, so all it will mean for me is just doing a normal roast but letting the final development go much longer. It's a plan!
Thanks Lou, I'm glad you found my video helpful. I'm glad you took my point to heart. While the software is really important, helpful and can even allow us to roast better because we have more information. But can we do it without the computer? I'm excited about your new roaster! You will have a lot of fun learning how it operates, seeing your roasts graphed out with more details you could ever imaging. I think your Bullet roaster can even repeat a roast so when you get that golden roast you will always have a meand to repeat it! That is exciting. Congrats!
I really like your shirt in this video....Im going to get one like it. Also, great content!! Made me want to run some batches without data logging software this week, to keep me on my toes!
Trevor, thanks for watching. Hey have you ever roasted and your logging software failed and you just had to wing it? So, you like my shirt eh? I think it was one of Michael's old shirts. Made me look giant. I've got to shed some of this weight! Thanks for checking in my blueberry bomb brother!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I think you look beautiful and healthy! If you want to come deadlift with me sometime just let me know lol. Funny you mention that scenario. That happened about two weeks ago now. about a min after TP our software just decided to stop recording and error out. We ended up just tracking it by hand and it was our favorite roast on the table the next day, all by accident. lol
I have a small electric air roaster and I have no software that I can use for it and my roasts turn out great. Just like learning to measure by your eye balls in a kitchen for a recipe same with roasting.
Not always perfect with my math on the fly but all in all the end result works really well. Glad it was helpful for you Alex. What are you roasting with?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I have a Popper from Sweet Maria's. I drilled a hole in the side of mine and use an instant-read thermometer to measure temps. So far I'm thrilled with it! I compare the coffee I roast to other roasters (some award winning/nationally recognized) and the Popper can roast great coffee in my opinion.
Alex, I'm glad you are enjoying your popper. Would you mind sharing any roast details (times & temps) and what type of coffee? Yep, the Popper can do a great job roasting.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Lately I've been getting results I enjoy with a total roast time between 7 and 8 minutes of roast, 3 minutes of cooling per the Popper design. I've been roasting Ethiopia Dry Process Keramo and Guatemala Xinabajul Los Chucitos, all coffee purchased from Sweet Maria's. I have been trying to get first crack to start approximately 5 minutes after the start of the roast. My Thermoworks Thermapen is located within the beans as they are moving around, you cannot really see the probe once the beans expand but it's reading near the top of the pile. Generally it reads around 400 degrees every time first crack outliers start popping and goes on up to 420-430 degrees. I manipulate the dial to try to keep the temperature below 430 and I wait until popping stops before I allow the cooling cycle to begin. The thought process behind my current roasting method really starts with an understanding the my equipment will read about 400 degrees when first crack outliers begin. I try to maintain a constant rise (I don't measure the rate of rise currently) towards 400 degrees but I want to keep 400 degrees at bay until about 5 minutes has passed. I am planning on changing this variable to 6 minutes to see how that tastes in the next roasts I do. I'm not terribly scientific yet, still just trying to get an enjoyable cup consistently and then I'll work on perfecting. Lately I've been brewing in a French press after sifting the ground coffee through a fine mesh sifter to allow the "dust" to fall into the sink before adding the dry coffee to the press carafe. I steep the coffee for 4 minutes before pressing. Any recommendations you have for me and my process would be greatly appreciated!
Once you zero in on your preferred total roast time let me know where you end up with a total roast time, how long it takes to get to yellow (dry phase) and then first crack (browning phase) and finally drop (development phase. I'm curious what the end result will be. The temps you are reading are most likely air temps. The thermometer is still helpful because you can see your "horsepower" being applied to the beans and how long it takes at a given temp setting to get to yellow, then the other events. Thanks for sharing and if you don't mind, i look forward to hearing what you end up with!
Hi Mike! Enjoying your videos. I'm just getting practice on my Frankenstein roaster. You see i have a Hickory foods based small business and added Hickory roasted coffee. Since just about every small roaster used gas, I had to build a wood fire based drum roaster. Still working out its heat pattern, but your video are most instructive. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful Mike. How are you managing airflow with the wood fire inside the grill? Are you finding the hickory smoke is too much and overpowers the flavor of the coffee? Just curious.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab The roaster i built has a small smoker pit below that can hold a varying quantity of wood. I've found i can modify the strength of the 'smokiness' by adjusting the amount of wood i use and at what stage of the roast i apply the smoke.
Thanks for the video. Nicely done. Your 1C starting temperature was around 350F, definitely less than the "standard" 386F. When you use Artisan, do you adjust the Config --> Device --> Symb BT/ET formula to "calibrate" or offset the temperature reading that Artisan plots? On my Hottop 2K+, 1C starts around 350F, so I could adjust the temperature in Artisan to x+35 to get the reading to start around 385F for 1C, for example. I'm trying the formula 1.125*x-7.85, a simple linear regression, for now to see how the numbers look after a roast. Again, I appreciate what you are bringing to RUclips. Thank you.
Hi Norm. Thanks for your comments and sharing your "offset" compensated readings. A few important things to share. I have 3 probes on my Mill City 500 gram roaster: Bean temp - located at the lower part on the door where the coffee drops out. This is the probe that is in the bean mass during roasting. It reflects the lowest temp of my probes because it is positioned lower in the drum and touches the beans. PID - Actually called the PID Controller monitors and can even control the gas solenoid to shut off when it gets to a pre-programmed emergency shout off temp, also known as the safety temp. The probe reads temps from the middle area of the drum located on the front of the roaster (the side with the door). Exhaust Temp - Also known as Environmental Temp or Return Air Temp, is the temperature of the air flow leaving the drum. This probe is located in the upper section of the drum on the front of the roaster. Just by the location of the probe, we can expect the air temp to be different temperatures. I believe that is partly why we see different temps. Another reason is the length and thickness of our probes. This too can cause different temp readings. Lastly, the speed of the roast and the amount of coffee I am roasting can influence temperatures. I don't quite know how to explain it, but I have seen it happen. So, to answer your question, I think my temps were different because I have a different probe than you AND my temp reading was not take from the bean mass, rather a probe located higher up in the drum. I DO HAVE and offset temp in Artisan " x + 50 " which does land me at the FC temp of around 386 BUT as far as the linear thing, it causes my charge temps to be less accurate, which is OK, because the FC temp is what is most important for me. If I didn't have the calculation it would be different BUT as long as it is constant, I would simply have a "new" FC temp to use as my reference. Did that answer your question. I'm not an expert with probes and temps but I hope my response made sense. Let me know if I missed something.
Just found you ...so awesome you are ! Artisa is so hard to learn ...is there an app that will have alarms to beep for each phase of minutes similar to Coffee Roasting Timer v2 thatis available ?
While I agree it's absolutely important to understand the concepts and what those temperature numbers actually mean, ultimately that added pressure isn't always productive - you saw it yourself, although you were narrating to camera as well which just adds to the load, but it isn't anywhere near as simple as just writing down a few temperatures and putting dots on a graph. Artisan helps take away that pressure and gives you time to focus on the course of the roast rather than the maths... And yes, stuff happens and you will need to be able to guide a roast to completion without software at some point, and that means you should practice that occasionally, and have some writing material to hand should that happen!
Hi Brett, thanks for watching and for your comments. It would have been a lot easier if i had a handheld calculator but there were a couple of times I messed up the calculation because there was a lot going on, mostly related to my interacting with the audience while I was roasting. I'm glad you agree with my main point, being, it is important to understand the concepts ( how temperatures impact the roast profile) AND stuff happens where we may need to employ manually calculating our roast to guide it through successfully.
Happy New Year Mike greetings from London UK, excellent video and one of your many videos that I regularly revisit and has helped me massively with my learning, thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise. Mike I roast manually without software in my 1 kg Toper gas roaster and is great, can you let me know which number I should use to plot in my graph for the ROR please? I have the number written down in my columns but not sure how to plot the ROR number on my graph next to temps graph. Than you
Hi Mario, happy New Year. Yes, on the left side of your graph you have temps right? The timeline is on the bottom. The ROR is on the right side. Yo already know your numbers so take your highest value and add 5. So, if your highest ROR is 20, plot 25 and make your incremental marks. Does that make sense?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you Mike still can’t quite get how to plot on a graph the ROR in brakets below so from the TP when values start to be positive what ROR number do you I need to use and after that as my differences are around 5 every 30 seconds all I get is a flat line So this is an example of my temps for 30 seconds intervals in celcius. Charge at 0:00 220, 0:30 145, 1:00 121, 1:30 115 (TP) 2:00 116 (1) 2:30 119 (3) 3:00 123 (4) 3:30 127 (4) 4:00 132 (5) 4:30 136 (4) 5:00 141 (5) 5:30 146 (5) DE 6:00 151 (5) 6:30 155 (4) 7:00 159 (4) 7:30 164 (5) 8:00 168 (4) 8:30 172 (4) 9:00 177 (5) FC 9:30 182 (5) 10:00 186 (4) 11:00 190 (4) Drop
OK, thank you for sharing your temps Mario. So the value you are recording is the difference increase/decrease from the previous reading. So you are correct, it is about 5c for each 30 second interval. This is surprising to me because the biggest increase should be between 1:30 and 4:00 on your timeline. Please share your power settings and air settings with me in percentages. So, out of 100% full power/air I am at 80% at :30 for power...... OR I am at 60% of my drum speed max. I'm curious what your RPM is of your drum too. The goal is to have enough heat to build momentum so at dry end (or around there) you can monitor your ROR descent towards First crack. You don't seem to have much momentum increase during the first 4 minutes. That doesn't seem right. Your dry end time could be shorter by a 30 seconds to 1 minute. Please share your power settings. Also, your charge temp seems pretty low, especially for a batch size of 1k. This could be the issue. Last, tell me how long you are pre-heating and at what temp. Thanks
Artisan will help provide some great information to help you roast James. I did a video about artisan that might be helpful. ruclips.net/video/1qNyp6DONgk/видео.html
Yea, it is software that has been around for a while that has many versions for different platforms. The site could be organized a little different but in the end, it is free and once you get the right version working on your computer it is a great resource.
When I first started using Artisan it kept crashing because I was not doing the correct sequence when igniting the gas. I ended up doing several manual roasts. I very much prefer roasting software and my computer. I can easily save the roast and review later. Rate of rise is constantly displayed and it's easy to get the correct profile.
Hi Ron, you are absolutely right. Using logging software has so many advantages and that is why I use it. But, when forced to roast without it, would I be able to generate a decent roast? That was my point. I am very thankful for Artisan!
Hi Ken, those are great questions. Thanks for watching my video and for your comment. The temperature reading I was using was not the bean temperature, rather the PID temperature. First, let me clarify my roaster has 3 different probes that provide temperature readings: Bean temp - located at the lower part on the door where the coffee drops out. This is the probe that is in the bean mass during roasting. It reflects the lowest temp of my probes because it is positioned lower in the drum and touches the beans. PID - Actually called the PID Controller monitors and can even control the gas solenoid to shut off when it gets to a pre-programmed emergency shout off temp, also known as the safety temp. The probe reads temps from the middle area of the drum located on the front of the roaster (the side with the door). Exhaust Temp - Also known as Environmental Temp or Return Air Temp, is the temperature of the air flow leaving the drum. This probe is located in the upper section of the drum on the front of the roaster. So, knowing I am not using an accurate reading of the bean temperature, but instead the average temperature of the drum environment, I am still able to use those temperatures to guide my roast. In this roast, I was able to see my temperature progression over time which is exactly what we should be doing to be able to manage our heat and hit the profile we are trying to achieve. I wasn't right on as far as my profile BUT I was pretty close. Close enough for the coffee to fall within my normal range of roasting that coffee to highlight a little acidity and focus on sweetness for a nice medium roast. Why does Artisan use air temps too? So artisan can display other probe readings like the exhaust air. This reading is pretty cool. As mentioned above, it is measuring the temp of the air being exhausted out of the roaster. This temperature can be used as a measurement of the horsepower you have in your roast. It can also be used as a finish line of sorts that your bean temp is headed towards. I'm hoping to do a video on this in the near future to show some of the benefits of exhaust temperature.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks for the great info,,,I’m roasting with a Fresh Roast SR800 with the new 12 inch glass extensions tube, with built in hole for a therm couple, so I will will be able to monitor my own temp from roast to roast , I will be look for some software that will work on my IPad as I roast outdoors ,
Marko, not sure if this is the model you have. I noticed there is a voluntary recall because of fires. See this link to learn if your unit is included. www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2021/Metal-Ware-Recalls-NESCO-Coffee-Bean-Roasters-Due-to-Fire-Hazard
It seem as density is not a concern of yous. I have been roasting with an end roast density of 680 which is considered medium roast , then taste , is that a mistake
Hi James. "End roast density". I have not used that as a measurement before. I use density measurements for green coffee so I can prepare how to manage my heat for the roast. I also consider end roast temperature and moisture loss percentage as a way to get consistent results. Can you share a little more about how you can roast different types of coffee with different density before roasting and use a density number to determine the roast level? I really am interested to learn more about what and how you are using this info to help you roast. Thanks.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab the end density is to determine light 95 _100 medium 90_94 dark 85 -89 And that is before 2nd crack there is a u tube video from wolf college of coffee explaining it all then we go to taste for air and heat distribution
ok, yes, I have seen that video and it seems like it would make sense if you were always roasting the same coffee. The part I am not sure about and I have not tested is how this test would work for different coffees. It seems like each type of coffee you roast will have a different density even if the roast levels, color, and temperature at the end of the roast are exactly the same. I will use an extreme example to clarify. Say we roast a super light density monsoon Malabar coffee that has a green density score of 500 and we also roast a very high-density Ethiopian Yirgacheff that has a density score of 890. Based on that video, it shouldn't matter what coffee it is, as long as the weights are the same after the roast THEN they are roasted to the same roast level? I think I will ask this question on their channel just to clarify. It doesn't seem right to me, but I could be wrong. Thanks for your reply. I did notice you said in another post you are roasting the same coffee (Jamaica Blue Mountain) so the density measurement after roast would make more sense.
Alright, I watched the video a little closer this time at around the 4-minute mark in the video he does clarify that this range will be different based on the green coffee density. So, that makes sense and seems like it would be a helpful resource when roasting coffee. Personally, I think it would be most helpful when roasting a specific coffee, finding that perfect roast level you desire, and then using the roasted density measurement as one indicator of the roast level. I think end temperature is another important factor along with all of the other important elements of a successful roast like total roast time, phase percentages, etc. Thanks again for sharing James. Great comment!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab so once i get the density i desire and not the taste then i go to end temp ror Air flow to see where i either got there to slow or to fast. Low or high heat Which those things i am not versed in and you have been a great help and i look forward to learning
Thanks for your comment. I roasted fewer beans for this roast which allowed for almost no gas adjustments. Normally I roast 450-500 grams and this particular roast was 400 grams. Alive roasted on this machine since 2017 so I am vary familiar with the behavior, limitations etc.
Hi Steve, you noticed the smoke in video? No, my neighbors have not mentioned the smoke but they have mentioned the smell, which they seem to enjoy. As far as the smoke goes, there are to things going on. First, it was windy outside and that influences my airflow. Second, my venting needed a thorough cleaning and overall maintenance. I have insulation packing around the vent pipe that leads out the house and there were some gaps which allowed smoke to blow back in to the house. I have an upcoming video where I clean and reset my venting.
Some of my neighbors were walking one evening while I was roasting and panicked when they saw the smoke. I pipe the vent out a hole i cut in my garage door. Right in the middle of first crack someone started banging on my front door, garage door and loudly yelling. I had a difficult time abandoning the roast and finally ran to the door and found a woman on the phone with the fire department. I yelled out the door as I was not appropriately dressed to go out. (TMI ). I ran back to the roast and finished all the time thinking the firetruck would be pulling up to the house. Who knows what they think of the crazy wild hair old coffee roaster down the street.
@Ron Brown that is too funny. My vent goes out the side of the house and most of my roasting happens in the evenings. The neighbors don't mind. I have given coffee to some of them and they enjoy it.
This was really interesting. To think that roasting manually without the aid of software was the norm for many years is kind of mind-boggling. That said, logging software (even if I can't use it with a Behmor) definitely provides valuable feedback and can help establish consistency. Great work as always, Mike!
Hi Dustin, yep, logging software does provide valuable feedback and if you have it you should use it. I was talking with Trevor (Sabbath Coffee Roasters) about this somewhere in the comments here. I asked him when the last time his software stopped working and he had to start tracking mid roast manually. He responded.... "this past week". That was my point. We need to be ready to do it manually and practicing helps us use our senses and think about what is happening with our roast. As you could see, doing it by hand was more effort but in the long run, I will be ready if/when I need to roast without the software.
Thanks for your comment and encouragement Dustin. I appreciate it.
Yeah the software will i suppose will take the guess work out of my roast when i reach my 680 degree density and does not have the flavors i desire
KInd of like winemaking, people have made wine for thousands of years and now they use lab analysis to make what we call lab wines that are meeting what people think are perfect criteria alcohol and acidity wise and in regards to residual sugar, but i think its stupid and a waste of time, if a wine tastes good much like a cup of coffee who cares about the numbers its about how you perceive it.
A most excellent video Mike. In all the roasting videos I have watched where a true drum roaster is being used, I have NEVER seen it done without logging software. This video is most important to me at this time as I transition to a new roaster. You have now convinced me to truly manual roast when I first start out. I have to get a feel for this new machine, and using logging software might actually hinder that. The logging apps do a great job at automatically and accurately recording temps and graphing them in real time. But a real strong point for them is in calculating ROR, and maybe more importantly anticipating temps down the road. Seeing an anticipated future temp can allow earlier smaller corrections to be made, keeping the roast more in control. Right? BUT for learning the feel of a roaster, manually recording data and performing the calculations might be the best thing to do.
One really encouraging thing you said (from 11:30 to 11:50) ended with, "and you don't need software to do that." Yes!! It seems computers and their software can make things easier for us, but it's not a good thing when we become dependent on them. Computers and their apps will fail. It is not a matter of "if", but rather "when" and "how" they fail. Each of us has to consider what we would do if our computer screen went blank literally in the middle of the roast. Could we still end up with a decent roast? (Now I would LOVE to see someone make a video like that!)
So as I season my new roaster, I think I am going to act like the roast is a typical roast that I will be (trying to be) controlling. All the manufacturer wants from the roast is for it to go through second crack (2C) to yield lots of oil from the beans. I never let any of my roasts go near 2C, so all it will mean for me is just doing a normal roast but letting the final development go much longer. It's a plan!
Thanks Lou, I'm glad you found my video helpful. I'm glad you took my point to heart. While the software is really important, helpful and can even allow us to roast better because we have more information. But can we do it without the computer?
I'm excited about your new roaster! You will have a lot of fun learning how it operates, seeing your roasts graphed out with more details you could ever imaging. I think your Bullet roaster can even repeat a roast so when you get that golden roast you will always have a meand to repeat it! That is exciting. Congrats!
Well said
I really like your shirt in this video....Im going to get one like it. Also, great content!! Made me want to run some batches without data logging software this week, to keep me on my toes!
Trevor, thanks for watching. Hey have you ever roasted and your logging software failed and you just had to wing it? So, you like my shirt eh? I think it was one of Michael's old shirts. Made me look giant. I've got to shed some of this weight! Thanks for checking in my blueberry bomb brother!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I think you look beautiful and healthy! If you want to come deadlift with me sometime just let me know lol. Funny you mention that scenario. That happened about two weeks ago now. about a min after TP our software just decided to stop recording and error out. We ended up just tracking it by hand and it was our favorite roast on the table the next day, all by accident. lol
Great video. Inspired by you I roast manually with a paper log every time on my Behmor sr 2020.
Nice. I’m glad you liked it. How are your roasts turning out Poul?
Hi Poul. Glad to hear you are roasting manually on the Behmor. I do too, and I think it is the best way to roast on that machine.
I have a small electric air roaster and I have no software that I can use for it and my roasts turn out great. Just like learning to measure by your eye balls in a kitchen for a recipe same with roasting.
Sounds great! Is it a popcorn popper?
This was very informative, seeing you calculate the numbers helped add context to the terms you use in your other videos.
Not always perfect with my math on the fly but all in all the end result works really well. Glad it was helpful for you Alex. What are you roasting with?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I have a Popper from Sweet Maria's. I drilled a hole in the side of mine and use an instant-read thermometer to measure temps. So far I'm thrilled with it! I compare the coffee I roast to other roasters (some award winning/nationally recognized) and the Popper can roast great coffee in my opinion.
Alex, I'm glad you are enjoying your popper. Would you mind sharing any roast details (times & temps) and what type of coffee? Yep, the Popper can do a great job roasting.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Lately I've been getting results I enjoy with a total roast time between 7 and 8 minutes of roast, 3 minutes of cooling per the Popper design. I've been roasting Ethiopia Dry Process Keramo and Guatemala Xinabajul Los Chucitos, all coffee purchased from Sweet Maria's.
I have been trying to get first crack to start approximately 5 minutes after the start of the roast. My Thermoworks Thermapen is located within the beans as they are moving around, you cannot really see the probe once the beans expand but it's reading near the top of the pile. Generally it reads around 400 degrees every time first crack outliers start popping and goes on up to 420-430 degrees. I manipulate the dial to try to keep the temperature below 430 and I wait until popping stops before I allow the cooling cycle to begin.
The thought process behind my current roasting method really starts with an understanding the my equipment will read about 400 degrees when first crack outliers begin. I try to maintain a constant rise (I don't measure the rate of rise currently) towards 400 degrees but I want to keep 400 degrees at bay until about 5 minutes has passed. I am planning on changing this variable to 6 minutes to see how that tastes in the next roasts I do. I'm not terribly scientific yet, still just trying to get an enjoyable cup consistently and then I'll work on perfecting.
Lately I've been brewing in a French press after sifting the ground coffee through a fine mesh sifter to allow the "dust" to fall into the sink before adding the dry coffee to the press carafe. I steep the coffee for 4 minutes before pressing.
Any recommendations you have for me and my process would be greatly appreciated!
Once you zero in on your preferred total roast time let me know where you end up with a total roast time, how long it takes to get to yellow (dry phase) and then first crack (browning phase) and finally drop (development phase. I'm curious what the end result will be. The temps you are reading are most likely air temps. The thermometer is still helpful because you can see your "horsepower" being applied to the beans and how long it takes at a given temp setting to get to yellow, then the other events. Thanks for sharing and if you don't mind, i look forward to hearing what you end up with!
Hi Mike! Enjoying your videos. I'm just getting practice on my Frankenstein roaster. You see i have a Hickory foods based small business and added Hickory roasted coffee. Since just about every small roaster used gas, I had to build a wood fire based drum roaster. Still working out its heat pattern, but your video are most instructive. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful Mike. How are you managing airflow with the wood fire inside the grill? Are you finding the hickory smoke is too much and overpowers the flavor of the coffee? Just curious.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab The roaster i built has a small smoker pit below that can hold a varying quantity of wood. I've found i can modify the strength of the 'smokiness' by adjusting the amount of wood i use and at what stage of the roast i apply the smoke.
That is cool Mike. Thanks for sharing!
I gotta get that app! Thanks for this!
Yep! Thanks for watching!
Great video Mike, valuable lesson on manual roasting.
Thanks Shane. It is always helpful to be able to graph by hand in case our software goes wonky.
Thanks this is how I roast on Kaldi mini
Thanks for watching John. It's good to hear you are charting your roasts. Are you calculating your phase times too? Just curious.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab with pen and paper need to download that app
Thanks for the video. Nicely done. Your 1C starting temperature was around 350F, definitely less than the "standard" 386F.
When you use Artisan, do you adjust the Config --> Device --> Symb BT/ET formula to "calibrate" or offset the temperature reading that Artisan plots?
On my Hottop 2K+, 1C starts around 350F, so I could adjust the temperature in Artisan to x+35 to get the reading to start around 385F for 1C, for example. I'm trying the formula 1.125*x-7.85, a simple linear regression, for now to see how the numbers look after a roast.
Again, I appreciate what you are bringing to RUclips. Thank you.
Hi Norm. Thanks for your comments and sharing your "offset" compensated readings. A few important things to share. I have 3 probes on my Mill City 500 gram roaster:
Bean temp - located at the lower part on the door where the coffee drops out. This is the probe that is in the bean mass during roasting. It reflects the lowest temp of my probes because it is positioned lower in the drum and touches the beans.
PID - Actually called the PID Controller monitors and can even control the gas solenoid to shut off when it gets to a pre-programmed emergency shout off temp, also known as the safety temp. The probe reads temps from the middle area of the drum located on the front of the roaster (the side with the door).
Exhaust Temp - Also known as Environmental Temp or Return Air Temp, is the temperature of the air flow leaving the drum. This probe is located in the upper section of the drum on the front of the roaster.
Just by the location of the probe, we can expect the air temp to be different temperatures. I believe that is partly why we see different temps. Another reason is the length and thickness of our probes. This too can cause different temp readings. Lastly, the speed of the roast and the amount of coffee I am roasting can influence temperatures. I don't quite know how to explain it, but I have seen it happen.
So, to answer your question, I think my temps were different because I have a different probe than you AND my temp reading was not take from the bean mass, rather a probe located higher up in the drum. I DO HAVE and offset temp in Artisan " x + 50 " which does land me at the FC temp of around 386 BUT as far as the linear thing, it causes my charge temps to be less accurate, which is OK, because the FC temp is what is most important for me. If I didn't have the calculation it would be different BUT as long as it is constant, I would simply have a "new" FC temp to use as my reference.
Did that answer your question. I'm not an expert with probes and temps but I hope my response made sense. Let me know if I missed something.
Just found you ...so awesome you are ! Artisa is so hard to learn ...is there an app that will have alarms to beep for each phase of minutes similar to Coffee Roasting Timer v2 thatis available ?
Hi Gary, I have not found an app to do that, only the development phase using the coffee timer app. I hope to do more videos on artisan in the future.
While I agree it's absolutely important to understand the concepts and what those temperature numbers actually mean, ultimately that added pressure isn't always productive - you saw it yourself, although you were narrating to camera as well which just adds to the load, but it isn't anywhere near as simple as just writing down a few temperatures and putting dots on a graph. Artisan helps take away that pressure and gives you time to focus on the course of the roast rather than the maths... And yes, stuff happens and you will need to be able to guide a roast to completion without software at some point, and that means you should practice that occasionally, and have some writing material to hand should that happen!
Hi Brett, thanks for watching and for your comments. It would have been a lot easier if i had a handheld calculator but there were a couple of times I messed up the calculation because there was a lot going on, mostly related to my interacting with the audience while I was roasting. I'm glad you agree with my main point, being, it is important to understand the concepts ( how temperatures impact the roast profile) AND stuff happens where we may need to employ manually calculating our roast to guide it through successfully.
Happy New Year Mike greetings from London UK, excellent video and one of your many videos that I regularly revisit and has helped me massively with my learning, thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise. Mike I roast manually without software in my 1 kg Toper gas roaster and is great, can you let me know which number I should use to plot in my graph for the ROR please? I have the number written down in my columns but not sure how to plot the ROR number on my graph next to temps graph. Than you
Hi Mario, happy New Year. Yes, on the left side of your graph you have temps right? The timeline is on the bottom. The ROR is on the right side. Yo already know your numbers so take your highest value and add 5. So, if your highest ROR is 20, plot 25 and make your incremental marks. Does that make sense?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you Mike still can’t quite get how to plot on a graph the ROR in brakets below so from the TP when values start to be positive what ROR number do you I need to use and after that as my differences are around 5 every 30 seconds all I get is a flat line So this is an example of my temps for 30 seconds intervals in celcius. Charge at 0:00 220,
0:30 145,
1:00 121,
1:30 115 (TP)
2:00 116 (1)
2:30 119 (3)
3:00 123 (4)
3:30 127 (4)
4:00 132 (5)
4:30 136 (4)
5:00 141 (5)
5:30 146 (5) DE
6:00 151 (5)
6:30 155 (4)
7:00 159 (4)
7:30 164 (5)
8:00 168 (4)
8:30 172 (4)
9:00 177 (5) FC
9:30 182 (5)
10:00 186 (4)
11:00 190 (4) Drop
OK, thank you for sharing your temps Mario. So the value you are recording is the difference increase/decrease from the previous reading. So you are correct, it is about 5c for each 30 second interval. This is surprising to me because the biggest increase should be between 1:30 and 4:00 on your timeline. Please share your power settings and air settings with me in percentages. So, out of 100% full power/air I am at 80% at :30 for power...... OR I am at 60% of my drum speed max. I'm curious what your RPM is of your drum too.
The goal is to have enough heat to build momentum so at dry end (or around there) you can monitor your ROR descent towards First crack. You don't seem to have much momentum increase during the first 4 minutes. That doesn't seem right. Your dry end time could be shorter by a 30 seconds to 1 minute. Please share your power settings.
Also, your charge temp seems pretty low, especially for a batch size of 1k. This could be the issue.
Last, tell me how long you are pre-heating and at what temp.
Thanks
I just hook my 2k up and been roasting manually, been using the sr540 manully , btw i only been roasting Jamaica blue mountain.
Artisan will help provide some great information to help you roast James. I did a video about artisan that might be helpful. ruclips.net/video/1qNyp6DONgk/видео.html
@@VirtualCoffeeLab they seem to make you jump though hoops to download it
Yea, it is software that has been around for a while that has many versions for different platforms. The site could be organized a little different but in the end, it is free and once you get the right version working on your computer it is a great resource.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab it ask for donations
When I first started using Artisan it kept crashing because I was not doing the correct sequence when igniting the gas. I ended up doing several manual roasts. I very much prefer roasting software and my computer. I can easily save the roast and review later. Rate of rise is constantly displayed and it's easy to get the correct profile.
Hi Ron, you are absolutely right. Using logging software has so many advantages and that is why I use it. But, when forced to roast without it, would I be able to generate a decent roast? That was my point. I am very thankful for Artisan!
how accurate do you think your bean temp was? why does artisan use air temps too?
Hi Ken, those are great questions. Thanks for watching my video and for your comment.
The temperature reading I was using was not the bean temperature, rather the PID temperature. First, let me clarify my roaster has 3 different probes that provide temperature readings:
Bean temp - located at the lower part on the door where the coffee drops out. This is the probe that is in the bean mass during roasting. It reflects the lowest temp of my probes because it is positioned lower in the drum and touches the beans.
PID - Actually called the PID Controller monitors and can even control the gas solenoid to shut off when it gets to a pre-programmed emergency shout off temp, also known as the safety temp. The probe reads temps from the middle area of the drum located on the front of the roaster (the side with the door).
Exhaust Temp - Also known as Environmental Temp or Return Air Temp, is the temperature of the air flow leaving the drum. This probe is located in the upper section of the drum on the front of the roaster.
So, knowing I am not using an accurate reading of the bean temperature, but instead the average temperature of the drum environment, I am still able to use those temperatures to guide my roast. In this roast, I was able to see my temperature progression over time which is exactly what we should be doing to be able to manage our heat and hit the profile we are trying to achieve. I wasn't right on as far as my profile BUT I was pretty close. Close enough for the coffee to fall within my normal range of roasting that coffee to highlight a little acidity and focus on sweetness for a nice medium roast.
Why does Artisan use air temps too? So artisan can display other probe readings like the exhaust air. This reading is pretty cool. As mentioned above, it is measuring the temp of the air being exhausted out of the roaster. This temperature can be used as a measurement of the horsepower you have in your roast. It can also be used as a finish line of sorts that your bean temp is headed towards. I'm hoping to do a video on this in the near future to show some of the benefits of exhaust temperature.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab
Thanks for the great info,,,I’m roasting with a Fresh Roast SR800 with the new 12 inch glass extensions tube, with built in hole for a therm couple, so I will will be able to monitor my own temp from roast to roast , I will be look for some software that will work on my IPad as I roast outdoors ,
Wow, do I just love my nesco roaster... Push button...done.
Glad you are getting great results!
Marko, not sure if this is the model you have. I noticed there is a voluntary recall because of fires. See this link to learn if your unit is included.
www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2021/Metal-Ware-Recalls-NESCO-Coffee-Bean-Roasters-Due-to-Fire-Hazard
It seem as density is not a concern of yous. I have been roasting with an end roast density of 680 which is considered medium roast , then taste , is that a mistake
Hi James. "End roast density". I have not used that as a measurement before. I use density measurements for green coffee so I can prepare how to manage my heat for the roast. I also consider end roast temperature and moisture loss percentage as a way to get consistent results. Can you share a little more about how you can roast different types of coffee with different density before roasting and use a density number to determine the roast level? I really am interested to learn more about what and how you are using this info to help you roast. Thanks.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab the end density is to determine light 95 _100 medium 90_94 dark 85 -89
And that is before 2nd crack there is a u tube video from wolf college of coffee explaining it all then we go to taste for air and heat distribution
ok, yes, I have seen that video and it seems like it would make sense if you were always roasting the same coffee. The part I am not sure about and I have not tested is how this test would work for different coffees. It seems like each type of coffee you roast will have a different density even if the roast levels, color, and temperature at the end of the roast are exactly the same. I will use an extreme example to clarify. Say we roast a super light density monsoon Malabar coffee that has a green density score of 500 and we also roast a very high-density Ethiopian Yirgacheff that has a density score of 890. Based on that video, it shouldn't matter what coffee it is, as long as the weights are the same after the roast THEN they are roasted to the same roast level? I think I will ask this question on their channel just to clarify. It doesn't seem right to me, but I could be wrong.
Thanks for your reply. I did notice you said in another post you are roasting the same coffee (Jamaica Blue Mountain) so the density measurement after roast would make more sense.
Alright, I watched the video a little closer this time at around the 4-minute mark in the video he does clarify that this range will be different based on the green coffee density. So, that makes sense and seems like it would be a helpful resource when roasting coffee. Personally, I think it would be most helpful when roasting a specific coffee, finding that perfect roast level you desire, and then using the roasted density measurement as one indicator of the roast level. I think end temperature is another important factor along with all of the other important elements of a successful roast like total roast time, phase percentages, etc. Thanks again for sharing James. Great comment!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab so once i get the density i desire and not the taste then i go to end temp ror
Air flow to see where i either got there to slow or to fast. Low or high heat
Which those things i am not versed in and you have been a great help and i look forward to learning
I notice that your roast ran well without changing your power/gas or drum speeds. I suppose you’ve gotten good at knowing how your roaster behaves.
Thanks for your comment. I roasted fewer beans for this roast which allowed for almost no gas adjustments. Normally I roast 450-500 grams and this particular roast was 400 grams. Alive roasted on this machine since 2017 so I am vary familiar with the behavior, limitations etc.
Have your neighbors said anything about the smoke?
Hi Steve, you noticed the smoke in video? No, my neighbors have not mentioned the smoke but they have mentioned the smell, which they seem to enjoy.
As far as the smoke goes, there are to things going on. First, it was windy outside and that influences my airflow. Second, my venting needed a thorough cleaning and overall maintenance. I have insulation packing around the vent pipe that leads out the house and there were some gaps which allowed smoke to blow back in to the house. I have an upcoming video where I clean and reset my venting.
Some of my neighbors were walking one evening while I was roasting and panicked when they saw the smoke. I pipe the vent out a hole i cut in my garage door. Right in the middle of first crack someone started banging on my front door, garage door and loudly yelling. I had a difficult time abandoning the roast and finally ran to the door and found a woman on the phone with the fire department. I yelled out the door as I was not appropriately dressed to go out. (TMI ). I ran back to the roast and finished all the time thinking the firetruck would be pulling up to the house. Who knows what they think of the crazy wild hair old coffee roaster down the street.
@Ron Brown that is too funny. My vent goes out the side of the house and most of my roasting happens in the evenings. The neighbors don't mind. I have given coffee to some of them and they enjoy it.