Great video! I live in hurricane territory, and we experience random blackouts all year. I have zero concerns about powering my home with a regular generator. Companies have done a great marketing job scaring people into spending an extra few grand for an inverter (that doesn't cost them that much more to make).The concern with older open frame generators was surge spikes. Modern generators have almost eliminated that issue. My generator cord is plugged into a 50amp rv surge protector, and all of my home electronics stay plugged into individual surge protectors. I've never had an issue. I have never heard of a neighbor having an issue with their electronics being ruined by a regular generator. Yet people preach inverters as if there's a national emergency with open frame generators cooking cellphones.
Agreed , I've done a ton of research and watched hundreds of vides, with all kinds of information from all over the world with all kinds of tests, using scopes measuring hertz, THD, etc.... Ive learned a lot, But, what I don't find are any videos of people telling me about electronics getting ruined by using an open generator, in fact, I can't find one!
Great video. I grew up with my Dad using open frame generators for back up sometimes up to 7 straight days due to hurricanes and we never noticed any damage to the computers or TVs. Was surprised to see the THD of the power company at almost 6 %.
The common wisdom is THD greater than 5% (same as utility) can do damage to microprocessors. I personally use the Honda EU6500 for home backup (less than 1% THD), so becomes for me an academic discussion. If it's greater than 5%, you can protect your computers by having them behind a UPS which will smooth out the electricity. But most appliances today have loads of microprocessors which theoretically could be damaged. I have discussed this with many people running open frame gennies with terrible THD and they claim no damage done ....so who knows
yes, but -- where does the waveform distortion _come from?_ The load. small frame generators don't have the winding mass to cope with that mess. The grid does, because of it's sheer size (although they are starting to compensate for reactive loads, as well.
Very cool video. Thanks for sharing, seems like a great project. I found few handheld scopes that do fft - and none that did thd calcs for you without connecting or moving data to a windows machine. (Under $1000+). Subscribed, thanks!
'sensitive electronics' would have to rely on the frequency stability + waveform for a clock reference. Most switching power supplies (like computers) will deal with about anything you feed to them. It is the transformer-based adapters that will heat up, and the motor loads (compressors) that will see real stress.
Agreed!! "Sensitive electronics" doesn't mean what people think. It's not tvs, computers and most expensive electronics. (it's fancy frige, furnace, vfd pool pump, some medical devices in a typical home).
Interesting. My 30 year old DSO can't do things like THD+N measurements, but refuses to die. I've been using pulse-type "modified sine wave" UPSes for about the same length of time, and never had any problems with switchmode power supplies. I suppose that my vintage audio gear with linear power supplies might have a little buzz in the ripple, but that's about it. Of course motors would turn a lot of that THD into heat, and one should avoid that. I still use an old APC UPS on my Internet stuff and DVRs, and there's no reason to change it.
That is a great little oscope you have created you should make more of them and sell them. I have two large scopes that I never use and last time I did anything with a bias cuircut in a guitar ampliphier I found a tool that lets you plug the tube into the device and plug the device into the tube socket right on the chassis and then from the LCD readout you can calculate the plate dissapation and of course you can add another scope modeling the sign wave you would like to have. I have seen little scopes that I would like to have but they are too expensive for me. At the moment I am wanting to run my Digitech RP500 off of my Honda EM500 which is a really handy little generator for busking on my boat but I am afraid to plug the RP500 into the Honda because the RP just operates off a little power adapter (I call them wall warts), and I have been too lazy lately to get out a big old scope and measure the Sign from the gen and that goes for the inverters on the boat as well since none of them are pure sign inverters but I doubt that they are going to just burn up my RP500, I have just spent too many years doing electronic repair to get this way and I just can't deal with SMD, also I have never been able to afford a logic analyzer. Electric repair doesn't pay well enough even when you're the only game in town.
Thanks for the comments! Funny you should mention selling them - I actually just posted a follow up video to this one (ruclips.net/video/z2SUedz2vag/видео.html) with a link to buy the parts to build your own. That new version is a two-channel USB scope for use with a computer to keep cost down rather than having a built-in screen (although there’s no reason a sufficiently motivated individual couldn’t attach a screen). And it’s all through-hole because I also don’t like dealing with SMD. You might also consider the FNIRSI 138 Pro if you want a more portable one-channel unit with a screen like the one I built in this original video, although it doesn’t come with any logic analysis, power spectrum analysis, or ability to export data to a computer. Also, I haven’t tried it, but the Hantek 6022BE is relatively cheap as scopes go and claims 20 MHz bandwidth - far faster than any of these other low cost options! (See openHantek for software that might work better if you go that route.)
@@picocosm Thanks for the heads up I will have to see your new video. It would be great to have a little scope like yours that I can easily check things with I just had no idea where to find all the cool parts and things I have been seeing.
I’m hugely impressed either way your Arduino scope. Very cool. Just a small detail: When measuring the garage outlet with load, I think you should have put the drill under load to get anywhere near the 3A or do the measurement while the drill is spinning up but that would be a bit tricky to get right. (I’m your 101st subscriber 😉)
Welcome to the party! You're right - I shouldn't have labeled that as a 3A load. We would only expect it to get that high when the motor is stalled. I was just grabbing for the nearest thing I could find that was a smaller load than the space heaters.
Nothing fancy -- I mostly confirmed timing and whether I was missing any samples by using another Arduino to put out a square wave at a known frequency. During the initial breadboarding I also made use of a ~20VAC test signal from a power adapter I saved from something broken. And a multimeter, of course, that reports frequency and RMS voltage.
I was looking to measure the THD on my generator and was looking for ways to do so. Watching the video now so I’m curious to see what project/equipment you are using.
That sine wave from the generator doesnt look all that bad for a non inverter generator. I have seen a sine wave from an inverter generator and i swear it looked cleaner that the house power ...
Great video! I run a 9200w champion generator and was wondering about the THD. I Know tvs and computers have little to no risk with a switching PS. My main concern, as many other people is the inverter heat pump and furnace. Now my main question is: i have a whole home surge protector in my panel. Does that filters out the unwanted thd or does it just works with big power surge like a lightning strike.
Surge protectors just suppress large spikes in voltage, which I wouldn't expect to do much for THD unless your waveform is absolutely riddled with surges. I have whole house surge protection too, although I don't recall if they were on during my later waveform monitor video: ruclips.net/video/TKOVB0_aJVE/видео.htmlsi=4b3nu7EVwfTp-KUA There is a different product called a line conditioner that I expect might be more applicable, but I don't have one for testing. If anyone wants to donate one to the channel I'd be delighted to test it: www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/UKXY48IG03UH?ref_=wl_share
I downsampled to just 64 samples spread across two cycles for the FFT, so just 15 harmonics as I ran it. You can see in the plots, though, that there isn't much going on in the higher harmonics. You could easily go somewhat higher if your application demanded it, subject to RAM limitations. Or export the data to a computer to analyze at the full sample rate. 308 kSps would theoretically allow you to go up to about the 2500th harmonic on a 60 Hz signal. But you only get 8-bit resolution.
I’ve run my laptop on that automotive adapter (~30% THD) for short periods of time without any obvious ill effects. But I don’t know what the long term consequences might be, or what kind of equipment might be most sensitive. If you find any hard data, please post it for us!
That's interesting! What generator model is that? We only have the one generator and it doesn't use an inverter. We have a Smart-UPS, but it makes a proper sine waveform also.
@@picocosm ok i found the video : ruclips.net/video/ZeG0QbFuemM/видео.html i assumed that inverter generators would be pure sine wave (they cost enough!), but it'd be a bad trade off for noise and fuel efficiency if they damaged equipment...
So i dont know what to do I have a open frame Genny non inverter. my gas furnace says no more than 5% thd my genny at half load from the company email says its around 8% Should I be worried about running the furnace in a power outage?
I wish I knew something definitive to tell you. There do exist line conditioners that claim to reduce waveform distortion, but I don't have one of those to test. Could make for an interesting video if anyone wants to buy one for testing!
You need to turn up the speed on your generator, at idle with no load you should have it at 61.5 HZ -62.5 HZ, so when it loaded down with the load it won't pull down no lower than 58-59HZ. @jamescondon he taught me everything i know about generators.
Great video! I live in hurricane territory, and we experience random blackouts all year. I have zero concerns about powering my home with a regular generator. Companies have done a great marketing job scaring people into spending an extra few grand for an inverter (that doesn't cost them that much more to make).The concern with older open frame generators was surge spikes. Modern generators have almost eliminated that issue. My generator cord is plugged into a 50amp rv surge protector, and all of my home electronics stay plugged into individual surge protectors. I've never had an issue. I have never heard of a neighbor having an issue with their electronics being ruined by a regular generator. Yet people preach inverters as if there's a national emergency with open frame generators cooking cellphones.
Glad to hear a conventional generator is working well for you too!
Agreed , I've done a ton of research and watched hundreds of vides, with all kinds of information from all over the world with all kinds of tests, using scopes measuring hertz, THD, etc.... Ive learned a lot, But, what I don't find are any videos of people telling me about electronics getting ruined by using an open generator, in fact, I can't find one!
Great video. I grew up with my Dad using open frame generators for back up sometimes up to 7 straight days due to hurricanes and we never noticed any damage to the computers or TVs. Was surprised to see the THD of the power company at almost 6 %.
The common wisdom is THD greater than 5% (same as utility) can do damage to microprocessors. I personally use the Honda EU6500 for home backup (less than 1% THD), so becomes for me an academic discussion. If it's greater than 5%, you can protect your computers by having them behind a UPS which will smooth out the electricity. But most appliances today have loads of microprocessors which theoretically could be damaged. I have discussed this with many people running open frame gennies with terrible THD and they claim no damage done ....so who knows
I'm in a process of looking for a tri fuel model that has an inverter, but there is nothing out there, only dual fuel. Bummer
yes, but -- where does the waveform distortion _come from?_ The load.
small frame generators don't have the winding mass to cope with that mess. The grid does, because of it's sheer size (although they are starting to compensate for reactive loads, as well.
@@paul9387check out Genmax
Very cool video. Thanks for sharing, seems like a great project. I found few handheld scopes that do fft - and none that did thd calcs for you without connecting or moving data to a windows machine. (Under $1000+). Subscribed, thanks!
'sensitive electronics' would have to rely on the frequency stability + waveform for a clock reference.
Most switching power supplies (like computers) will deal with about anything you feed to them.
It is the transformer-based adapters that will heat up, and the motor loads (compressors) that will see real stress.
Agreed!! "Sensitive electronics" doesn't mean what people think. It's not tvs, computers and most expensive electronics. (it's fancy frige, furnace, vfd pool pump, some medical devices in a typical home).
Interesting. My 30 year old DSO can't do things like THD+N measurements, but refuses to die. I've been using pulse-type "modified sine wave" UPSes for about the same length of time, and never had any problems with switchmode power supplies. I suppose that my vintage audio gear with linear power supplies might have a little buzz in the ripple, but that's about it. Of course motors would turn a lot of that THD into heat, and one should avoid that. I still use an old APC UPS on my Internet stuff and DVRs, and there's no reason to change it.
That is a great little oscope you have created you should make more of them and sell them. I have two large scopes that I never use and last time I did anything with a bias cuircut in a guitar ampliphier I found a tool that lets you plug the tube into the device and plug the device into the tube socket right on the chassis and then from the LCD readout you can calculate the plate dissapation and of course you can add another scope modeling the sign wave you would like to have. I have seen little scopes that I would like to have but they are too expensive for me. At the moment I am wanting to run my Digitech RP500 off of my Honda EM500 which is a really handy little generator for busking on my boat but I am afraid to plug the RP500 into the Honda because the RP just operates off a little power adapter (I call them wall warts), and I have been too lazy lately to get out a big old scope and measure the Sign from the gen and that goes for the inverters on the boat as well since none of them are pure sign inverters but I doubt that they are going to just burn up my RP500, I have just spent too many years doing electronic repair to get this way and I just can't deal with SMD, also I have never been able to afford a logic analyzer. Electric repair doesn't pay well enough even when you're the only game in town.
Thanks for the comments! Funny you should mention selling them - I actually just posted a follow up video to this one (ruclips.net/video/z2SUedz2vag/видео.html) with a link to buy the parts to build your own. That new version is a two-channel USB scope for use with a computer to keep cost down rather than having a built-in screen (although there’s no reason a sufficiently motivated individual couldn’t attach a screen). And it’s all through-hole because I also don’t like dealing with SMD. You might also consider the FNIRSI 138 Pro if you want a more portable one-channel unit with a screen like the one I built in this original video, although it doesn’t come with any logic analysis, power spectrum analysis, or ability to export data to a computer. Also, I haven’t tried it, but the Hantek 6022BE is relatively cheap as scopes go and claims 20 MHz bandwidth - far faster than any of these other low cost options! (See openHantek for software that might work better if you go that route.)
@@picocosm Thanks for the heads up I will have to see your new video. It would be great to have a little scope like yours that I can easily check things with I just had no idea where to find all the cool parts and things I have been seeing.
I’m hugely impressed either way your Arduino scope. Very cool.
Just a small detail: When measuring the garage outlet with load, I think you should have put the drill under load to get anywhere near the 3A or do the measurement while the drill is spinning up but that would be a bit tricky to get right.
(I’m your 101st subscriber 😉)
Welcome to the party! You're right - I shouldn't have labeled that as a 3A load. We would only expect it to get that high when the motor is stalled. I was just grabbing for the nearest thing I could find that was a smaller load than the space heaters.
I am impressed with your mini scope. How did you calibrate it ? what measurement/ Lab equipment did you use ?
Nothing fancy -- I mostly confirmed timing and whether I was missing any samples by using another Arduino to put out a square wave at a known frequency. During the initial breadboarding I also made use of a ~20VAC test signal from a power adapter I saved from something broken. And a multimeter, of course, that reports frequency and RMS voltage.
I was looking to measure the THD on my generator and was looking for ways to do so. Watching the video now so I’m curious to see what project/equipment you are using.
That sine wave from the generator doesnt look all that bad for a non inverter generator.
I have seen a sine wave from an inverter generator and i swear it looked cleaner that the house power ...
Great video! I run a 9200w champion generator and was wondering about the THD. I Know tvs and computers have little to no risk with a switching PS. My main concern, as many other people is the inverter heat pump and furnace.
Now my main question is: i have a whole home surge protector in my panel. Does that filters out the unwanted thd or does it just works with big power surge like a lightning strike.
Surge protectors just suppress large spikes in voltage, which I wouldn't expect to do much for THD unless your waveform is absolutely riddled with surges. I have whole house surge protection too, although I don't recall if they were on during my later waveform monitor video: ruclips.net/video/TKOVB0_aJVE/видео.htmlsi=4b3nu7EVwfTp-KUA
There is a different product called a line conditioner that I expect might be more applicable, but I don't have one for testing. If anyone wants to donate one to the channel I'd be delighted to test it: www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/UKXY48IG03UH?ref_=wl_share
How many harmonics does your scope measure to? Amprobe ACD-41PQ does 51.
I downsampled to just 64 samples spread across two cycles for the FFT, so just 15 harmonics as I ran it. You can see in the plots, though, that there isn't much going on in the higher harmonics. You could easily go somewhat higher if your application demanded it, subject to RAM limitations. Or export the data to a computer to analyze at the full sample rate. 308 kSps would theoretically allow you to go up to about the 2500th harmonic on a 60 Hz signal. But you only get 8-bit resolution.
Very interesting information! I have the same stated THD for my Westinghouse generator (
I’ve run my laptop on that automotive adapter (~30% THD) for short periods of time without any obvious ill effects. But I don’t know what the long term consequences might be, or what kind of equipment might be most sensitive. If you find any hard data, please post it for us!
a Champion inverter generator was tested by a youtuber to find it's a modified sine wave.
have you ever tested an inverter generator?
That's interesting! What generator model is that?
We only have the one generator and it doesn't use an inverter. We have a Smart-UPS, but it makes a proper sine waveform also.
@@picocosm ok i found the video :
ruclips.net/video/ZeG0QbFuemM/видео.html
i assumed that inverter generators would be pure sine wave (they cost enough!), but it'd be a bad trade off for noise and fuel efficiency if they damaged equipment...
So i dont know what to do I have a open frame Genny non inverter. my gas furnace says no more than 5% thd my genny at half load from the company email says its around 8% Should I be worried about running the furnace in a power outage?
I wish I knew something definitive to tell you. There do exist line conditioners that claim to reduce waveform distortion, but I don't have one of those to test. Could make for an interesting video if anyone wants to buy one for testing!
If anyone wants to donate a line conditioner to the channel, I'd be happy to test it out: www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/UKXY48IG03UH?ref_=wl_share
You need to turn up the speed on your generator, at idle with no load you should have it at 61.5 HZ -62.5 HZ, so when it loaded down with the load it won't pull down no lower than 58-59HZ. @jamescondon he taught me everything i know about generators.