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I get the feeling dealerships in general aren't the best when problems like this occur but rather independent specialists who have a bit more knowledge and passion in working on these type of cars
I stopped letting suspension noises be a big worry (still fix it, but not feel concerned) when I notice my 996 was a little loose above 140mph and then discovered the front right strut top mount had completely broken, so the strut wasn't attached to the car.
Exactly the kind of discussion I have had with the Mazda dealer about my mx5 doing « German » speed in France and throwing a Check Engine light, especially if you must first talk with an admin person who is not a car enthusiast.
Glad you found it. By the looks of things they have the anti roll bar hanging off of one side of the damper mounting?!? No wonder it gets worn out with an uneven load tugging up and down on one end of it all the time. I think we need a 430 Scud ‘enjoyment’ montage!
This ! - Placing the anti roll bar link onto the shaft for the damper / spring seems a little bit suspicious; normally drop links join with the lower arm directly..
It is the ideal position for an ARB connection and means that the bar itself can be thinner/lighter and hence more compliant whilst producing the same effect. It's one of the many design features that make a Ferrari float across the road rather than bouncing up and down over it like a 'Sports' version of a regular production car e.g. M3.
@@pjay3028 I'm basic terms - leverage. It's simpler to design and package an inboard mounted ARB e.g. fixed to a lower arm, but decreased leverage (referred to as motion ratio) means that the bar needs to be thicker/heavier to do the same job. N.B. the bush shown in this video is a big downgrade. Worst type for that position. It should be an OEM ball joint.
Spherical bushing like that are generally used to off set wheel loading to allow better turn in. In other words, turning left, the rear right wheel will load up, the bearings allow the wheel to toe out slightly, increasing the cars turn rate. So any wear in these bushes will show up as a the noise you experienced every time the wheel is loaded and unloaded, ie round different tight corners.
Hey Jay, that's pretty informative thanks for posting. Just to put another bit of information on the subject, there's a known issue about that kind of bushes and it's related on the way they will be installed. More specifically, having a rubber part, if the bolts that pass through them are torqued with the car with the wheels up in the air, which is the case as the mechanics work with the car on a lift, once you put the car down on its wheels, the weight of the car move the static point of where the wishbones will sit, and that causes a preload on the bushses, making them working under a constant stress, reducing their effectiveness and their life significantly. The solution is to either torque the bolts with the car on the ground, or if it's too cramped as I could image will be the case on a 430, the mechanic have to put a small hydraulic lift under the upright to set it at the actual height, relative to the car, as it is going to be with the car weight pushin on the wishbones once on ground. That way you are actually locking the bolts at their static position once the car is lowered to the ground, lettin the bushes doing their work without added stress. For a more indepth explanation you can search "clock suspension bushes" around the web. I hope my English was clear enough! Cheers from Italy
little issues like that have almost caused me to want to just sell everything and get out of the car hobby!! Crap like that drives me nuts! Glad you got it sorted.
I love this boring stuff, it's obviously helpful to others who own the same car but can be a useful guide to finding problems in other cars. Boring stuff but I love it.
This saga reminds me of my own car, where I chased a front suspension knock for over a year. Replaced bushings, dampers etc. to no avail. Turned out to be an engine mount issue.
Sounds like my B7 A4, only mine is worse. Upper arms were a nightmare to remove, lower arms 'look' easier but in typical Germanic style it's been designed by a sadist.
Any "Yard mechanic work" is typically accentuated by struggle, desperation and distilled anger; something the German engineering is perfectly designed to illicit. This is furthered by a time table for being fixed by Monday if you do not have an alternate vehicle.
I’ve wrenched on my late 80’s Ferrari for 15 years now and I can say that at least with the old stuff it’s not about having an engineering degree or speaking some secret language that only Ferrari mechanics speak. It’s about being extremely patient, and having 6 different versions of every tool. A short one, a long one, a ratcheting one, a magnetic one, and a couple you made yourself because “how the hell am I going to get a tool in there???” 😂🤦🏻♂️
The multilink is actually quite straightforward to work with... Once you get used to it. :P Just remember to tighten with the car on the ground - which might require some ingenuity with the upper arms.
I get knocks and rattles when driving my 1968 Alfa. In someways I find it comforting. It least I know it is stll (loosely) attached. If I'm driving in a silent car then I know that something has fallen off.
Admire your persistance on sorting this out. A lot of people would have sold the car after a few attempts of solving the problem and not succeeding. Now that you've got that sorted, you can take care of that big spiderweb on your grill.
Jay, literally just finished watching your previous F430 video... like literally 2minutes ago.. Fan of your page, reviews and everything cars that you do, even if I disagree sometimes. I'm saving for an F430 coupe. Keep the vids coming mate!!
I've followed this issue since it originally popped up with your first scud. And i must say, I feel very satisfied to have such a detailed explanation of the cause and resolution. Must pale in comparison to what you feel!
Jay, It’s the U.K. roads that pound those ball joints. Our colleagues in Europe honestly do not have those same problems with ball joints. I’ve put over 120,000 miles on my own 360 and I’m well aware of the ‘ball joint issues’ It’s a U.K. problem. Pot holes and rubbish roads. On another note, if you fancy driving mine, Aldous looks after it, it’s pretty tight and swift after 360Trev did his magic ❤
Just done lower front ball joints, track rod ends & the cross links on my 360 to get rid of similar. Seems to have worked, but any more knocking, I'll go for these bushes. Many thanks
Just been there with my Abarth. Whirring noise for 2 years. Changed suspension arms, ball joints to no avail. The frustration of not knowing was driving me absolutely mad. Found out it was the rear pads and and rotors. Now drives (to me) like a new car❤ so happy
@Jbansh 0 seconds ago Happy for you James. Similar issue in my Evora 400. Drove me nuts. But only happened at low speeds when cold. Metal on metal rattle over any speedbump or uneven surface. As the heat builds up after a longer drive, the metal heats up and expands slightly, so usually by the time you hit the workshop the problem is "non-existent". Finally got new spherical bearings pressed in and voila... 4000miles later.. still no noise.
Anti roll bar bushes! Mechanics seem to like replacing all the bushings and ball joints and then the complete control arms, suspension top mounts and so on but I asked my mechanic to replace the cheapest and easiest to fit bushings, anti roll bar bushes, on my QP, which looked fine, and voila! The same constant knocking, especially at low speeds, as his nibs was cured completely and a few thousand kms later still good! Hope this helps someone.
JayEmm - I do hope that you solved this as I have had this same annoyance for 14 years of Scud ownership. I thought it was fixed a few times, but it always returned. Please do a track day in your Scud and report back with an update.
If the inner part of the bush is rotating on that pin/bolt, you’ve got a big problem. All the movement between the inner and outer parts of a bush like that happens by flexing the rubber. Unless it’s a ball joint of course, in which case it can rotate between the parts. And if it was a ball joint, it absolutely should have had grease in it. Also, I agree with one of the other comments that the single sided mount for the shock with the drop link hanging off the end is a bloody horrible engineering solution.
It's not elegant, but it does save weight and there are advantages of direct transmission of forces through the end of the shock from the anti roll bar. It does rely a LOT on the strength of that bolt though which as an engineer I would consider a no-no.
Yes, but it is the most common way to do things using the rubber flex. I just switched back from Powerflex PU to rubber Shore D65 - because rubber is actually more enduring. Even PU has a limited life span. In a Ferrari you might want to go to D85 rubber. Not me though. Ball joints are obviously the ideal theoretical solution as per theoretical function but they actually can have the shortest life span of them all. Balls are not good against shocks because there is a soft metal bearing liner in them, but more likely is the corroding of the ball after which there will be this nickedy nackedy noise. Maybe we should go for titanium knives like they use in F1 ideally elastic without friction.
@@mwstewart Which bit? The pin at the bottom of the shock isn't, and more troubling to me, attaching the anti roll bar to the cantilevered end seems like it creates the possibility that the loads and therefore stresses on the pin can change direction due to the action of the anti-roll bar. Now, I know it's perfectly normal to attach both shocks and anti roll bar drop links to wishbones with a fastener in single shear and it does work so it's maybe not an actual problem, and maybe despite the anti roll bar acting to pull one side down in corners, the load still is always in one direction at the threaded part of the pin where it goes into the wishbone but it doesn't seem like the most robust way to do it.
Haha, congrats! Suffering suspension OCD myself, I can appreciate this. It is annoying though that Ferrari dealer techs would keep replacing the same part and rather take a car back altogether than learn and do proper diagnosis. The number of bushes on cars isn't infinite...
This is what truly amazes me about Ferrari owners - such love for the brand even though there are other, better cars available. It is almost as though they love the faults with their motors.
The reason you use ball joints over a bushing is for reducing compliance under eccentric motions. Solid rubber bushings will start tearing under highly eccentric movements. Double-wishbone suspension undergoes significant toe change during movement, so a ball joint is more resilient than rubber. If something is going wrong that you can hear metal on metal from the bushing, then it is very likely that you'll tear the bushings and have a different (worse) issue. I'd get them inspected regularly. I've got $10 says that the issue was the small amount of play introduced by the slight change in dimensions between your old lower arm bold and the new one. Put the old bolt back and the noise will come back.
It's very possible the bolt was at fault - and I may return to the "correct" ball-joint arrangement soon. The car's going back in in a few months and we'll inspect the new bushings then
Many said the issue was the bolt. Ferrari superceded to a teflon coated one. I bought them, and during the swap, found my car already had them. Installed anyway, but no improvement@@JayEmmOnCars
Jayemm. You can make a used snotty handkerchief sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Good on yah, all the best for a permanent fix and God bless. Thanks 🙏.
as i do with a lot of car vids i watch, i go on ebay to see how much they are.....very surprised to see that normal f430's are about £100 grand cheaper than the scuderia. That must be a special car to spend that much more over a standard one. Glad you finally solved it, that would have drove me insane
Thanks J, great detective work! Odd all Ferraris don't have that noise, unless their sound insulation blocks it? Hope it all works out well & enjoy the Scud! 🙏🙏
By no means am I a suspension expert and I could be completely wrong here but. When the bushes are pressed into the shock absorber or a control arm they are usually tightened while the vehicle is in the air. This means the suspension is under no load. When the vehicle is lowered on to the ground the suspension is under load. The outer sleeve of the bush cannot move due to the press fit of the control arm or shock absorber. The inner metal sleeve can't twist either due to the nut and bolt being tightened on either side of that inner sleeve. Inbetween is the rubber that is bonded to both the inner and the outer sleeve. Now that the car is lowered to the ground and the suspension is loaded the rubber which is not designed to twist would constantly be stressed. Would lowering the car, getting underneath and then tightening the bolts insure that the rubber in the bushes aren't stressed/twisted constantly? However hopefully the problem has been sorted. Cheers
Just done this job on my Maserati 3200. The bush was twisted and damaged, like the one you are holding, because the top of the shocker had not been correctly aligned with the fixing points in the upper wheel arch. The top has to be rotated at an angle of about 12 degrees in relation to the centre line of the bush and it had not! Consequently, it put a twist in the bush and damaged it. Furthermore, the shocker had been fitted by a Maserati main dealer! I expect Ferraris have a similar set up(?). Worth checking otherwise the new bushes will go the same way. The workshop manual will cover this.
Same sound on my Challenge Stradale. Replaced all the balljoints and the lower shock mounts and it fixed it. Same Superformance part you used here actually. After a few hundred miles it came back. Checked and the lower shock mount nuts were a little loose. Tightened and the sound went away. Came back after 100 miles. Checked again. Same. Loose nut on shock mount. Retightened and gone again. LOL. So weird. I’m buying new lower shock mount bolts and nuts all around. We shall see……
Very nice, Jay, I LOVE your shirt, GO GIANTS 👍🏻and warm, or should I say, foggy greetings from the great San Francisco. As always love your videos, keep up the great work.
As one who also wears “Hawaiian” shirts I always take note of yours, and am never disappointed. Surprised to see the San Francisco Giants baseball team on this episode. I wonder if there are similar shirts with English football (soccer) teams? Man United? Arsenal? How about that one which went from worst to first against the predictions of all the punters and the pundits what’s it called? I would wear that. And in the US, no one would mug me for liking the “wrong” team because no one would have the slightest notion of what it was.
Hey Jay, I love your content always super entertaining. And I love your passion for Ferrari I just wanted to let you know if you ever need someone who knows these Ferrari's in and out and I mean genuinely like no one else you want to use my dads business he worked at for Ferrari for over a decade back when Ferrari used to do challenge 355's and when the F50 was out only based in the west midlands he takes care of my gated gallardo too and I know you'd get your problems resolved 10x faster and I promise your car would feel BRAND new honestly not being biased genuinely does some of the best work I promise. JP Performance Cars is the business.
I have a humble ‘93 MR2, had a very similar knock, and the problem was a very similar bushing-what Toyota called the rear hub-side tie Rod bearing. Once I replaced both, the knock vanished for good.
Doesn’t matter if it’s a £350 Golf or a near 200k Ferrari… suspension knocks and bangs are up there as one of the most infuriating things on a car in my eyes. Interesting you mention the cost of bolts, I find suspension bolts always seem pricey because of their tensile strength ratings being different to those you can get at screw fix for 99p, that and I don’t trust really anything other than an OEM bolt!
Awesome James, glad you finally got it fixed. I want to say that it's funny how you didn't save any money between a 40quid and 50quid part, but I imagine you would have, if it was 40k or 50k 😉
I replaced my front lower damper bushes on my Maserati 4200 with the Superformance version. 100 miles later I had a low speed squeak/creak from the front. Turns out the bonded rubber in the bush was pulling away, with the weight of the car the inner bush was no longer concentric with the outer. This caused the bottom of the damper to rub on the suspension arm (metal on metal). I put oe bushes back in and its been fine. Something to watch for?
Might be a case of incorrect installation - you need to load up the suspension to normal ride height before tightening and torquing the bolt or the bushing will indeed fail very quickly.
If you open the ball visible you will find the ball corroded from it surface. It will still be tight but the corroded surface makes noise when ginding against the nest. And if there was grease I suppose Lowett tried to silence it by injecting grease in it - which will keep it quiet for about 200 km. Thing is that if you put wrong grease - it will corrode. How do I know. It is not an uncommon problem on the outboard lower joint. But obviously it can happen inboard too.
It's a spherical bearing. Same thing as you find inside a rose joint. Very much reliant on its grease but any contamination will quickly cause wear and knocking. Perhaps other cars have in-built compliance elsewhere which dampens the peak loads seem by this joint, meaning the Scud is unique for killing them. It looks like this joint is isolated from the cabin via other bushes, so you don't need additional isolation and a bush isn't required. Ferrari being Ferrari this means an extra nth of a percent of handling fidelity.
Well I had a noise like that on my 2001 Frontier -- just driving slowly through a parking lot with slightly uneven payment... knock knock knock. Turned out to be missing rubber stops... on the tailgate. Hahaha.
How can a main dealer hold their head up when failing to diagnose worn droplinks? They are the single most common cause of undiagnosed knocking noise. And also failing to diagnose a worn suspension bush... Especially one that's been on every car they have sold (except classics) in the last 35 years. Honestly it beggers believe. I am an amateur mechanic with only 3 years experience and I and thousands like me would certainly have done a better and more expedient job of diagnosing this. Glad you found some spanners with tenacity in the end. It really shouldn't have been that hard (even remotely). Enjoy
I genuinely believe JayEmm would be an absolutely fantastic presenter for Top Gear. I don’t agree with some of his opinions on some cars but this guy really seems like a shoe-in for the failing program.
Hi Jay, Glad you got it sorted ... just a great car ... Question: Following the previous video on the Scud I'm trying to get hold of Prestige Refinishing regarding getting my F430's headlight's split and polished inside, however they just don't seem to return calls or answer emails or the phone. Did you have the same issue ? - thanks in advance
Saabs have the issue with the rear rose joint bushes which are the same style as these but replacing with poly bushes is not as good as you have play whereas the originals would be solid. ST205 rear hubs are the same. Only use new spherical ball joints as people have replaced with poly but ended up with weird driving mechanics. Maybe now they allow movement in the shock that it is hiding the real cause. They are most likely a Fiat part anyway deep down. There really aren't many ways to make a spherical ball joint after all. It could just be a design fault causing the joints to wear out prematurely. Upgrading the grease might help but putting poly which is flexible in place of a spherical ball joint is never a good move imo. You might remove the noise but suspension geometry will change as the bush compresses.
My car had an annoying noise coming from the interior... took me ages to track it down to the aftermarket gearkbob I fitted which one internal screw had fallen out.. tightened and it was fixed...
I know you’re not a huge fan of the GT4RS J, but I whittled down a very long list of cars and the Scud and GT4RS were both co-#1s. I went with the GT4RS because it was under warranty and because I need a car to get through an entire track day without a check engine light or other ailment popping up. But can’t deny the sex appeal of the Scud.
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Will you be attending festival italia on Sunday at brands hatch at all?
Enjoy your ferrari Jay !!
You have most likely become the saviour of many a Ferrari owner. Ferrari should reward you James.
Way to track down such a tiny issue that certainly has caused frustration for countless owners, Jay. Well done!
I get the feeling dealerships in general aren't the best when problems like this occur but rather independent specialists who have a bit more knowledge and passion in working on these type of cars
I stopped letting suspension noises be a big worry (still fix it, but not feel concerned) when I notice my 996 was a little loose above 140mph and then discovered the front right strut top mount had completely broken, so the strut wasn't attached to the car.
That always are the hardest conversations with the garage. "It makes a strange noise when going over 120 mph. Can you solve that?"
Exactly the kind of discussion I have had with the Mazda dealer about my mx5 doing « German » speed in France and throwing a Check Engine light, especially if you must first talk with an admin person who is not a car enthusiast.
Glad you found it. By the looks of things they have the anti roll bar hanging off of one side of the damper mounting?!? No wonder it gets worn out with an uneven load tugging up and down on one end of it all the time.
I think we need a 430 Scud ‘enjoyment’ montage!
Absolutely stupid design!! 😮
This ! - Placing the anti roll bar link onto the shaft for the damper / spring seems a little bit suspicious; normally drop links join with the lower arm directly..
It is the ideal position for an ARB connection and means that the bar itself can be thinner/lighter and hence more compliant whilst producing the same effect. It's one of the many design features that make a Ferrari float across the road rather than bouncing up and down over it like a 'Sports' version of a regular production car e.g. M3.
@@mwstewart why on earth can it be "thinner and lighter"?
@@pjay3028 I'm basic terms - leverage. It's simpler to design and package an inboard mounted ARB e.g. fixed to a lower arm, but decreased leverage (referred to as motion ratio) means that the bar needs to be thicker/heavier to do the same job.
N.B. the bush shown in this video is a big downgrade. Worst type for that position. It should be an OEM ball joint.
Spherical bushing like that are generally used to off set wheel loading to allow better turn in. In other words, turning left, the rear right wheel will load up, the bearings allow the wheel to toe out slightly, increasing the cars turn rate. So any wear in these bushes will show up as a the noise you experienced every time the wheel is loaded and unloaded, ie round different tight corners.
Hey Jay, that's pretty informative thanks for posting.
Just to put another bit of information on the subject, there's a known issue about that kind of bushes and it's related on the way they will be installed.
More specifically, having a rubber part, if the bolts that pass through them are torqued with the car with the wheels up in the air, which is the case as the mechanics work with the car on a lift, once you put the car down on its wheels, the weight of the car move the static point of where the wishbones will sit, and that causes a preload on the bushses, making them working under a constant stress, reducing their effectiveness and their life significantly.
The solution is to either torque the bolts with the car on the ground, or if it's too cramped as I could image will be the case on a 430, the mechanic have to put a small hydraulic lift under the upright to set it at the actual height, relative to the car, as it is going to be with the car weight pushin on the wishbones once on ground. That way you are actually locking the bolts at their static position once the car is lowered to the ground, lettin the bushes doing their work without added stress.
For a more indepth explanation you can search "clock suspension bushes" around the web.
I hope my English was clear enough!
Cheers from Italy
the world of scud/16m owners thank you for your service
I love a story with a Happy Ending! 😂
little issues like that have almost caused me to want to just sell everything and get out of the car hobby!! Crap like that drives me nuts! Glad you got it sorted.
I love this boring stuff, it's obviously helpful to others who own the same car but can be a useful guide to finding problems in other cars. Boring stuff but I love it.
Thanks for closing this out Jay! Information like this is truly invaluable
This saga reminds me of my own car, where I chased a front suspension knock for over a year. Replaced bushings, dampers etc. to no avail. Turned out to be an engine mount issue.
The amount of time we spend finding solutions to the to little things. So satisfying after years of researching and tinkering
Sounds like my B7 A4, only mine is worse. Upper arms were a nightmare to remove, lower arms 'look' easier but in typical Germanic style it's been designed by a sadist.
Any "Yard mechanic work" is typically accentuated by struggle, desperation and distilled anger; something the German engineering is perfectly designed to illicit. This is furthered by a time table for being fixed by Monday if you do not have an alternate vehicle.
@@joshuasterling2144don't forget the nagging wife "can't you just buy a decent car?" 😂
I’ve wrenched on my late 80’s Ferrari for 15 years now and I can say that at least with the old stuff it’s not about having an engineering degree or speaking some secret language that only Ferrari mechanics speak. It’s about being extremely patient, and having 6 different versions of every tool. A short one, a long one, a ratcheting one, a magnetic one, and a couple you made yourself because “how the hell am I going to get a tool in there???” 😂🤦🏻♂️
The multilink is actually quite straightforward to work with... Once you get used to it. :P Just remember to tighten with the car on the ground - which might require some ingenuity with the upper arms.
@@GTC4camRegardikg the tools, I feel you. And I don’t even have a Ferrari.
I remember the first episodes where this first bothered you. Glad it’s repaired friend.
I get knocks and rattles when driving my 1968 Alfa. In someways I find it comforting. It least I know it is stll (loosely) attached. If I'm driving in a silent car then I know that something has fallen off.
Glad you got this sorted & Happy Birthday!
He is a funny guy too, a good sense of humour always make the videos fun to watch!
Admire your persistance on sorting this out. A lot of people would have sold the car after a few attempts of solving the problem and not succeeding. Now that you've got that sorted, you can take care of that big spiderweb on your grill.
Jay, literally just finished watching your previous F430 video... like literally 2minutes ago.. Fan of your page, reviews and everything cars that you do, even if I disagree sometimes. I'm saving for an F430 coupe. Keep the vids coming mate!!
ps. your best line so far, "I don't know a boxster that does that!" hahaha
Priceless information to a new to Ferrari F430 DIY person. Thank you!!
Well done, it's a good thing to persevere, even if your very busy, and you simply plod through the process I find.
I've followed this issue since it originally popped up with your first scud. And i must say, I feel very satisfied to have such a detailed explanation of the cause and resolution. Must pale in comparison to what you feel!
Jay,
It’s the U.K. roads that pound those ball joints. Our colleagues in Europe honestly do not have those same problems with ball joints. I’ve put over 120,000 miles on my own 360 and I’m well aware of the ‘ball joint issues’
It’s a U.K. problem.
Pot holes and rubbish roads.
On another note, if you fancy driving mine, Aldous looks after it, it’s pretty tight and swift after 360Trev did his magic ❤
Just done lower front ball joints, track rod ends & the cross links on my 360 to get rid of similar. Seems to have worked, but any more knocking, I'll go for these bushes.
Many thanks
Just been there with my Abarth. Whirring noise for 2 years. Changed suspension arms, ball joints to no avail. The frustration of not knowing was driving me absolutely mad. Found out it was the rear pads and and rotors. Now drives (to me) like a new car❤ so happy
How would a whirring noise be related to arms and bushes? You were barking up the wrong tree at that point.
@Jbansh
0 seconds ago
Happy for you James. Similar issue in my Evora 400. Drove me nuts. But only happened at low speeds when cold. Metal on metal rattle over any speedbump or uneven surface. As the heat builds up after a longer drive, the metal heats up and expands slightly, so usually by the time you hit the workshop the problem is "non-existent". Finally got new spherical bearings pressed in and voila... 4000miles later.. still no noise.
My scud has the same issue...thank you for your solution...will investigate deeply
Anti roll bar bushes! Mechanics seem to like replacing all the bushings and ball joints and then the complete control arms, suspension top mounts and so on but I asked my mechanic to replace the cheapest and easiest to fit bushings, anti roll bar bushes, on my QP, which looked fine, and voila! The same constant knocking, especially at low speeds, as his nibs was cured completely and a few thousand kms later still good! Hope this helps someone.
JayEmm - I do hope that you solved this as I have had this same annoyance for 14 years of Scud ownership. I thought it was fixed a few times, but it always returned. Please do a track day in your Scud and report back with an update.
Does the noise actually mean the car is about to break down? I have it too on my scud. But is it that bad?
If the inner part of the bush is rotating on that pin/bolt, you’ve got a big problem. All the movement between the inner and outer parts of a bush like that happens by flexing the rubber. Unless it’s a ball joint of course, in which case it can rotate between the parts. And if it was a ball joint, it absolutely should have had grease in it. Also, I agree with one of the other comments that the single sided mount for the shock with the drop link hanging off the end is a bloody horrible engineering solution.
It's not elegant, but it does save weight and there are advantages of direct transmission of forces through the end of the shock from the anti roll bar. It does rely a LOT on the strength of that bolt though which as an engineer I would consider a no-no.
Yes, but it is the most common way to do things using the rubber flex. I just switched back from Powerflex PU to rubber Shore D65 - because rubber is actually more enduring. Even PU has a limited life span. In a Ferrari you might want to go to D85 rubber. Not me though.
Ball joints are obviously the ideal theoretical solution as per theoretical function but they actually can have the shortest life span of them all. Balls are not good against shocks because there is a soft metal bearing liner in them, but more likely is the corroding of the ball after which there will be this nickedy nackedy noise. Maybe we should go for titanium knives like they use in F1 ideally elastic without friction.
It's in double shear.
@@mwstewart Which bit? The pin at the bottom of the shock isn't, and more troubling to me, attaching the anti roll bar to the cantilevered end seems like it creates the possibility that the loads and therefore stresses on the pin can change direction due to the action of the anti-roll bar. Now, I know it's perfectly normal to attach both shocks and anti roll bar drop links to wishbones with a fastener in single shear and it does work so it's maybe not an actual problem, and maybe despite the anti roll bar acting to pull one side down in corners, the load still is always in one direction at the threaded part of the pin where it goes into the wishbone but it doesn't seem like the most robust way to do it.
Nice! This and your birthday deserves a road trip with another video on the Scuderia! 🙃
Dick Lovett is a crazy name for a dealership.
You Lovett
@@bg22757 wheeeeey
Best comment
Well done dude ...I bet you're properly relieved long may it last 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏🙏😇
Glad you finally got it sorted out.
disassembled suspension means that after assembly it will take its time till its settles in and then the noise will usually come back
I would like to say that I’ve been inspired by your cool shirts and have bought a few cool ones for myself. I always get compliments on them.
Haha, congrats! Suffering suspension OCD myself, I can appreciate this. It is annoying though that Ferrari dealer techs would keep replacing the same part and rather take a car back altogether than learn and do proper diagnosis. The number of bushes on cars isn't infinite...
Glad you figured out the issue. Scary that the dealer couldn't fix it
This is what truly amazes me about Ferrari owners - such love for the brand even though there are other, better cars available. It is almost as though they love the faults with their motors.
It's more the case that we aren't seeking perfection, but excitement
Jay, all these Ferraris and Lamboughinis are parts bin specials to some degree. I am not surprised.
It's great to hear that it seems you have got to the bottom of it. I hope the video helps others also.
I am very glad you sorted this out... The whole issue is not very flattering for Ferrari cars and their after sales service, apparently...
The reason you use ball joints over a bushing is for reducing compliance under eccentric motions. Solid rubber bushings will start tearing under highly eccentric movements. Double-wishbone suspension undergoes significant toe change during movement, so a ball joint is more resilient than rubber. If something is going wrong that you can hear metal on metal from the bushing, then it is very likely that you'll tear the bushings and have a different (worse) issue. I'd get them inspected regularly.
I've got $10 says that the issue was the small amount of play introduced by the slight change in dimensions between your old lower arm bold and the new one. Put the old bolt back and the noise will come back.
It's very possible the bolt was at fault - and I may return to the "correct" ball-joint arrangement soon. The car's going back in in a few months and we'll inspect the new bushings then
@@JayEmmOnCars If you have some calipers handy, measure up your bolt for me, and I can compare it to some of the ball joints I have hanging around.
Many said the issue was the bolt. Ferrari superceded to a teflon coated one. I bought them, and during the swap, found my car already had them. Installed anyway, but no improvement@@JayEmmOnCars
Jayemm. You can make a used snotty handkerchief sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Good on yah, all the best for a permanent fix and God bless. Thanks 🙏.
as i do with a lot of car vids i watch, i go on ebay to see how much they are.....very surprised to see that normal f430's are about £100 grand cheaper than the scuderia.
That must be a special car to spend that much more over a standard one.
Glad you finally solved it, that would have drove me insane
Thank you I will check my situation
Thanks J, great detective work! Odd all Ferraris don't have that noise, unless their sound insulation blocks it? Hope it all works out well & enjoy the Scud! 🙏🙏
By no means am I a suspension expert and I could be completely wrong here but. When the bushes are pressed into the shock absorber or a control arm they are usually tightened while the vehicle is in the air. This means the suspension is under no load. When the vehicle is lowered on to the ground the suspension is under load. The outer sleeve of the bush cannot move due to the press fit of the control arm or shock absorber. The inner metal sleeve can't twist either due to the nut and bolt being tightened on either side of that inner sleeve. Inbetween is the rubber that is bonded to both the inner and the outer sleeve. Now that the car is lowered to the ground and the suspension is loaded the rubber which is not designed to twist would constantly be stressed. Would lowering the car, getting underneath and then tightening the bolts insure that the rubber in the bushes aren't stressed/twisted constantly? However hopefully the problem has been sorted. Cheers
Just done this job on my Maserati 3200. The bush was twisted and damaged, like the one you are holding, because the top of the shocker had not been correctly aligned with the fixing points in the upper wheel arch. The top has to be rotated at an angle of about 12 degrees in relation to the centre line of the bush and it had not! Consequently, it put a twist in the bush and damaged it. Furthermore, the shocker had been fitted by a Maserati main dealer! I expect Ferraris have a similar set up(?). Worth checking otherwise the new bushes will go the same way. The workshop manual will cover this.
Hi Jay ! This is great news I think mine need doing on the 430 ! Give you a call in the week !
Same sound on my Challenge Stradale. Replaced all the balljoints and the lower shock mounts and it fixed it. Same Superformance part you used here actually. After a few hundred miles it came back. Checked and the lower shock mount nuts were a little loose. Tightened and the sound went away. Came back after 100 miles. Checked again. Same. Loose nut on shock mount. Retightened and gone again. LOL. So weird. I’m buying new lower shock mount bolts and nuts all around. We shall see……
Loctite is your friend😁
A bolt loosening was my thought when this first started. Classic symptom of replacing a part but all you're doing is retorquing the mounting bolts.
Great car, will put big smiles on your face!
Fingers crossed that fixes it! 🙌 I’m enjoying the garage videos 😊
Very nice, Jay, I LOVE your shirt, GO GIANTS 👍🏻and warm, or should I say, foggy greetings from the great San Francisco. As always love your videos, keep up the great work.
As one who also wears “Hawaiian” shirts I always take note of yours, and am never disappointed. Surprised to see the San Francisco Giants baseball team on this episode. I wonder if there are similar shirts with English football (soccer) teams? Man United? Arsenal? How about that one which went from worst to first against the predictions of all the punters and the pundits what’s it called? I would wear that. And in the US, no one would mug me for liking the “wrong” team because no one would have the slightest notion of what it was.
Hey Jay, I love your content always super entertaining. And I love your passion for Ferrari I just wanted to let you know if you ever need someone who knows these Ferrari's in and out and I mean genuinely like no one else you want to use my dads business he worked at for Ferrari for over a decade back when Ferrari used to do challenge 355's and when the F50 was out only based in the west midlands he takes care of my gated gallardo too and I know you'd get your problems resolved 10x faster and I promise your car would feel BRAND new honestly not being biased genuinely does some of the best work I promise. JP Performance Cars is the business.
I have a humble ‘93 MR2, had a very similar knock, and the problem was a very similar bushing-what Toyota called the rear hub-side tie Rod bearing. Once I replaced both, the knock vanished for good.
Doesn’t matter if it’s a £350 Golf or a near 200k Ferrari… suspension knocks and bangs are up there as one of the most infuriating things on a car in my eyes.
Interesting you mention the cost of bolts, I find suspension bolts always seem pricey because of their tensile strength ratings being different to those you can get at screw fix for 99p, that and I don’t trust really anything other than an OEM bolt!
Thank for the update on the app
Happy early birthday, James!!!
Result! Hopefully… fingers crossed. 🤞
Happy Birthday for next week James 🎉
Love the shirt James. Going to San Francisco in a few days and hope to get a game in. All the best Gus 👍
Awesome James, glad you finally got it fixed.
I want to say that it's funny how you didn't save any money between a 40quid and 50quid part, but I imagine you would have, if it was 40k or 50k 😉
Happy days 🥳
I look forward to the movie poster depicting this epic saga
You are THE man! Thanks!!! But what's with the mess in the background?
I replaced my front lower damper bushes on my Maserati 4200 with the Superformance version. 100 miles later I had a low speed squeak/creak from the front. Turns out the bonded rubber in the bush was pulling away, with the weight of the car the inner bush was no longer concentric with the outer. This caused the bottom of the damper to rub on the suspension arm (metal on metal). I put oe bushes back in and its been fine. Something to watch for?
Which OE brand did you go with Andy? I have to replace them on my 2008 Granturismo
@@Lee_PitcherI think I just bought a pair from Eurospares.
Might be a case of incorrect installation - you need to load up the suspension to normal ride height before tightening and torquing the bolt or the bushing will indeed fail very quickly.
@@Beer_Dad1975 that’s interesting. Hadn’t considered that but makes sense
Yep Center Gravity dropped the car down before tightening for that exact reason
Love the new studio 😀
Very nerdy. . . . yet satisfying.
If you open the ball visible you will find the ball corroded from it surface. It will still be tight but the corroded surface makes noise when ginding against the nest.
And if there was grease I suppose Lowett tried to silence it by injecting grease in it - which will keep it quiet for about 200 km.
Thing is that if you put wrong grease - it will corrode.
How do I know. It is not an uncommon problem on the outboard lower joint. But obviously it can happen inboard too.
Any update on the Honda?
Brilliant vid. I had knock on the wife's tributo. Drove me mad. Was the boot lock....lol.
It's a spherical bearing. Same thing as you find inside a rose joint. Very much reliant on its grease but any contamination will quickly cause wear and knocking. Perhaps other cars have in-built compliance elsewhere which dampens the peak loads seem by this joint, meaning the Scud is unique for killing them.
It looks like this joint is isolated from the cabin via other bushes, so you don't need additional isolation and a bush isn't required. Ferrari being Ferrari this means an extra nth of a percent of handling fidelity.
Great job, hopefully it’s sorted 👍
always happy to have a happy ending....(or beginning) ..hope you can enjoy it ...PS are you going to tell D.L ?
Well I had a noise like that on my 2001 Frontier -- just driving slowly through a parking lot with slightly uneven payment... knock knock knock. Turned out to be missing rubber stops... on the tailgate. Hahaha.
How can a main dealer hold their head up when failing to diagnose worn droplinks? They are the single most common cause of undiagnosed knocking noise. And also failing to diagnose a worn suspension bush... Especially one that's been on every car they have sold (except classics) in the last 35 years. Honestly it beggers believe. I am an amateur mechanic with only 3 years experience and I and thousands like me would certainly have done a better and more expedient job of diagnosing this. Glad you found some spanners with tenacity in the end. It really shouldn't have been that hard (even remotely). Enjoy
I genuinely believe JayEmm would be an absolutely fantastic presenter for Top Gear. I don’t agree with some of his opinions on some cars but this guy really seems like a shoe-in for the failing program.
Hi Jay,
Glad you got it sorted ... just a great car ...
Question: Following the previous video on the Scud I'm trying to get hold of Prestige Refinishing regarding getting my F430's headlight's split and polished inside, however they just don't seem to return calls or answer emails or the phone. Did you have the same issue ? - thanks in advance
Found your channel from Dadcars, very cool.
Oh yh totally relatable content. Hate when my Ferrari makes a knocking noise too.
This video I enjoyed so much. Cheers.
Congrats and hat off for your endurance. Finally a happy ending.
Fascinating stuff Jay.
Off topic, what has happened to your S2000 project?
Like a combination of Jeremy Clarkson, James May, Mike Brewer and the trademark terrible shirt. ❤ Brilliant rant, Jay.
Good job 🎉 Ratarossa style wins every time 😅
Be interested to see a 1000 mile update assuming the noise doesn't come back before hand.
2 steel surfaces lubricating themselves? you can now officially drain all your vehicles lubricants lol
Fascinating Journey!!!
Saabs have the issue with the rear rose joint bushes which are the same style as these but replacing with poly bushes is not as good as you have play whereas the originals would be solid. ST205 rear hubs are the same. Only use new spherical ball joints as people have replaced with poly but ended up with weird driving mechanics. Maybe now they allow movement in the shock that it is hiding the real cause. They are most likely a Fiat part anyway deep down. There really aren't many ways to make a spherical ball joint after all. It could just be a design fault causing the joints to wear out prematurely. Upgrading the grease might help but putting poly which is flexible in place of a spherical ball joint is never a good move imo. You might remove the noise but suspension geometry will change as the bush compresses.
Happy Birthday!🎁🎈🎂
But is it now softer? And, if it now has a slightly different articulation in the bush, has it lost any feel?
My car had an annoying noise coming from the interior... took me ages to track it down to the aftermarket gearkbob I fitted which one internal screw had fallen out.. tightened and it was fixed...
I know you’re not a huge fan of the GT4RS J, but I whittled down a very long list of cars and the Scud and GT4RS were both co-#1s. I went with the GT4RS because it was under warranty and because I need a car to get through an entire track day without a check engine light or other ailment popping up. But can’t deny the sex appeal of the Scud.
Hear that? Its the sound of Ferrari's lawyers on the phone. :)
It’s my birthday next week too! :D
Happy early birthday!!