GNOME wants TILING by DEFAULT, and more!
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
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As a Gnome user I'm really looking forward to their tiling solution, looks exciting. If a user is allowed to set "best size" that would solve the issue.
I don't think that would solve any issue. The issue they wanted to solve was shit work. Manually setting a best size is shit work at its best.
I do agree with Nicco that for most apps, the best size is "as much space as possible". Apps designs should adapt to the available space, not the other way around. If your app doesn't look good in full screen on a big screen, design it in such a way that it looks good on a big screen. That's the whole idea of responsive design.
I think it's weird that Gnome came up with such an approach, and I hope they're going to overthink it.
There is one problem a multi window mode (be it free floating windows, tiling or mosaic) needs to solve: Placing windows next to each other for information exchange (copy & paste, drag and drop, manually read one window and input with mouse and keyboards to the other one, etc). This includes creating such a placement, getting rid of such a placement, and changing the applications in place.
If they get this right, they solved multi tasking.
The Mosaic approach appears to be pretty bad at this.
@@aheendwhz1 idk to me shit work is something that needs to be done constantly (which is what I have to do now), not once per app if at all, but let's see.
No more tiling extension is needed anymore, I hope that they can implement it as soon as possible.
They should allow users to set best size, and send just back that telemetry to aggregate how these windows are being used
@@nich5696yeah. This crowdsourced approach would be optimal. It removes the need to make an API and people would need set the windows' size only one time for each, then the settings will ripple to everyone's desktop
Honestly this kind of design feels almost like the entire desktop was built for it, but I'm really happy to see them discuss features as big as this. Great video keep it up!
Whether it succeeds or not i'm glad Gnome are trying to innovate. And thank you Nicco for looking at what others are doing too.
No, Gnome should not be trying to innovate. Gnome is supposed to be a default desktop on most major distributions. It should work the way people expect gui to work, and not be pointlessly different and strange.
@@hamobu what's pointlessly different to you might be the next breakthrough in ux tomorrow. That's the point of innovation coupled with good testing.
@@iodreamify except, like I said, Gnome is supposed to be a default DE and not and edgy DE for people looking for interesting new things. Your parents, your kids, and people who just want to use the damn computer with minimum fuss are supposed to use it.
@@hamobu yeah i understand that. That's why i hope they test this as rigorously as possible. And knowing Gnome's requirements to get something merged they may very well do it correctly.
I also wish we had a DE that did more innovation than just stick to the traditional formula or copy others other than Gnome but the big linux firms have chosen Gnome and are now throwing their money at it.
Besides, i'm sure if it ends up a total failure it'll either be reverted or perhaps distros will choose Plasma from now on. I just hate to see new ideas rejected entirely because we have to live in this bubble where everything was done right in the 90s.
Hopefully window managers of all paradigms start using that preferred-size hinting.
GNOME tiling is innovative and is actually really nice. Normal tiling managers really just suck. Great they're working on something that could hopefully and finally help my qualms about windowing managers, floating and tiling included.
The tiled mosaic thing is an interesting idea, but I agree with you that for most windows, the "best size" is quite large. Apple actually tried this 20 years ago with its own "Zoom to best window size" feature and ran into the same problem, eventually abandoning it.
Furthermore, most windows small enough to make sense for this feature are tiny utility apps that you don't keep open for long periods of time. Sure, that calculator or weather app is small enough to make sense in a tiled mosaic, but the workflow itself doesn't really support tiling: you open it, use it, and then close it 30 seconds after you opened it. During the time it was open, your focus was 100% on it; it's not generally part of a multi-tasking workflow where it makes sense to keep it open long-term in an always-visible position on screen.
I think a more fruitful idea would to add the ability to let apps hint that they prefer a landscape or portrait aspect ratio for their large size. Then when you maximize a portrait-preferring app like a text editor on a landscape screen, it would automatically tile itself to the closest side, rather than maximizing itself to the entire screen and making its right half mostly be pointless whitespace.
I WAAANNNTTTT MOREEEEEE KDE VIIDDEEEEOOOSSSSS
good morning
I've never understood why a full tiling DE doesn't already exist. Something like a configured and "riced" dwm or bspwm set-up but as a complete DE that you can install as a package or collection of packages and it just works the way KDE, Mate, XFCE etc do.
... then it might take me back from sway.
As a KDE fanatic, I just want Fancy Zones in KDE
Yeah, that looks useful.
i really love that gnome focused on this one. but still i was expecting their background apps functionality is the alternative for the missing tray functionality
I love your editor’s work! They seem to truly capture your humor.
As a daily GNOME user I want tiling aspects, but not a full tiling. I much prefer a floating as the majority.
Infinitely scrollable 2d workspace for the mosaic.
Right now where Apple still wins is in dpi scaling. As an end-user, I would much prefer to see a concerted, coordinated effort to overhaul linux dpi scaling such that it works as seamlessly as Apple's across distros and DEs.
Ideally, in addition to the incremental scaling (offered as a % figure or just a direct entry ratio), I'd like to see screen size and fine tuning options, where the tool figures out the correct scale factor through the resolution and user-fed screen size (assuming there are no metadata available from the screen itself), and offers a ruler-type image to fine-tune using a known reference (i.e. a sheet of A4, a ruler, a gauge block, etc.).
Implementing this type of adjustment so it works seamlessly across multiple screens (with different scale factors) would make it amazing for so many professionals and power users who do editing work/etc.
The best way to do it imho is to convert every possible UI element to vector graphics (if that's not already the case) and apply the scaling by default in everything.
All I really want/need is that I can drag a window to a side, have it clip and ask which other application should be clipped on the other side, akin to what Windows does. I don't want your damned workspaces. I loved workspaces when I used to use a laptop, because swapping through them was much easier with a touchpad. But now with an ultrawide and a mouse on desktop, it's much more of a pain that just having windows.
That login screen looks amazing though. I'm all for it. There's a gnome extension that emulates that last one, with the notifications.
I switched from gnome to hyprland earlier this year because i like tiling but all the extensions that added it to gnome felt kinda janky, but if it becomes a native feature I'll probably switch back because I still love gnome and that tiling system sounds awesome
Gnome, reinventing the wheel badly since 2011!
In quite some window managers you can define all the window rules per application, including pop-ups, etc. Once setup, which is quite a bit of work, you just backup the rules and never look back.
I hope gnome would leave room to configure this yourself and be as versatile as other window managers.
If they don't, I'm sure there would be an extension to override it
« Wow ! But... I don't think that's gonna work » was my reaction to this as well.
But hey, even if it's not as fruitful as we may hope, it's an original take and it's sure to teach us all some things about window management.
Tiling by default, eh? This might well be the bridge between DEs and tiling WMs that we've all been craving.
That said, my main use case for gnome is on my laptop with a trackpad. The gestures available when using wayland make it so easy to use workspaces that I now stick to one window per workspace. Works amazingly well with small screens/etc.
Whenever I'm using a real mouse KDE wins, but with a trackpad gnome offers a LOT of good stuff that I find more convenient.
It's important to note that none of these ideas (Mosaic, replacing activities button, etc...) are necessarily going to happen, is all experimental, they still need more thought put into them and (later) user testing.
I wish XFCE had tiling by default
I really truly hope they'll take inspiration from PaperWM if they want to pivot to tiling-by-default. Now THAT is a game-changer I just can't do without anymore.
Same here. Since tried PaperWM (and Karousel now) I have an obsession with that.
I love the changes they are proposing. But i think the tiling thing, although the default, should have an option to turn off.
I love this experiment. Hope they find a way to implement it. I hope even KDE uses parts of this for example using maximum and ideal sizes to open the window when available. Not full automation but using hints to show suggestions for example.
Didn't know Shaggy used Linux
I don't want new app to launch in particular size in center of screen, or launching other app that the first one MOVE to different place. This is beyond stupid, how can even they think that this nonsense will be usable in real world... If they will force this garbage on users this will literally be death of the gnome desktop.
Switching back to gnome from my tiling wm if they drop this
When I read about the tiling ambitions of Gnome I thought about Windows 1 and i3. But it actually makes sense for me these days. I need a dozen open windows to manage all my systems and a window manager making sure everything stays organised is pretty handy.
I use or bismuth, unfortunately the author is not updating anymore. I would really like KDE to implement shortcuts in the new tiling mode, I believe that this is a trend that will arouse the attention of many users.
I seriously commend them for the attempt but I doubt it will work in the end. Wish them the best of luck and hope they prove me wrong.
I think a good idea would be leaving it up to the user what the optimal size or rather aspect ratio for a window is.
But that is almost the memory function of material shell.
I find it funny how many people in this comment section didn't understood what Gnome folks said about the mosaic feature and are already throwing rocks at it 😅:
1. They are just talking about a concept they intend to explore and work on.
2. This concept isn't finished. They don't know yet if it will work like that or even if it will be implemented at all
3. It will be discussed on the appropriate channels to get feedback from the community and there will prototypes to test if the ideas presented are worth it.
4. If deemed that the concept doesn't work well enough to be the default for most users(aka solving the window management) it will not be implemented
There's nothing set in stone at moment. People here are giving criticism to an idea they didn't test themselves or even see a working prototype yet. It feels like a taboo to experiment with new paradigms because there's some people who actually believe every issue regarding UX in computing were solved in the '90s
I think that, overall, we should push back in the fullscreen "dominance" that has been intensified by Apple. Full screen is usually much more related to focus and attention than to the possible profit from a more cluttered interface. And it's not a new idea. Many old programs work like that when you go fullscreen, giving you the bare minimum to keep working.
I've love to have hyprland way of working in gnome...
I feel like instead of ""best size", it would be what it is right now which is "default size". If an app opens full screen then might as well give it a workspace. If an app doesn't then we can do the other mosaic rules. I think it still makes sense that way.
The tiling feature sounds really cool! I like their approach - other tiling systems never felt very useful to me, largely because it ignores how certain apps make sense to be larger than others. I like the concept of this one much more (though I do hope they give some way to turn it off in Settings if it is ever implemented).
It would probably take some getting used to - I can already foresee people losing their windows when they move to another workspace - but overall I think it would be very helpful in maximizing screen real estate. This system would also push people to take advantage of workspaces when it makes sense, which can go underutilized by people who don't know about them or don't want to take time moving all their windows around.
As far as determining best size, I feel like that will probably be a challenge, but there are some other options. Perhaps it can be set by the user (for example, the OS could use the initial size and/or last closed window size). Or perhaps it initially gives these apps 100% size, but then gives a way to decide for the next app should be split-screen with the existing app, or given 100% size on a new workspace.
I like everything about this except automatically creating multiple workspaces, I with they would do something like edge vertical tabs to one side of the screen, like a taskbar but for apps
this theoretical UX is blowing my mind
As the way to set ideal tiling range should be available for the user anyway I think instead of relying solely on the app to set the ideal scale we maintain a separate repository to store preset scales for all the popular apps and if app comes with a scale or the user wants a different one it should be respected accordingly.
I hope there is an off switch, I have no need of a tiling manager.
No tiling pleaseee. Just create an extension for it. Oh wait... One already exists!
Hi Shaggy
On my laptop setup, I use a maximize to workspace extension along with the swipe gestures to get a Mac OS X Lion like experience which I really liked.
On my desktop I use the same maximize extension but with a scroll status bar extension to move around workspaces.
You are 5 years away from a mono-brow my man. :)
Nico, I was half way through writing up a top level design document for underlying Tiling feature(s). Got interrupted but was just starting to draw some illustrations for it. The main body of the draft text is already complete however. My goal: was to make it an open design document to be read and assessed by any variety of DE/WM GUI developers. And from any specific projects. For example equally KDE or System76' Cosmic. Or any other ones. I just wanted to mention it here since it originally was prompted by this same GNOME presentation. However to extend those ideas, and make them a bit more flexible and extensible. To address a wider variety of potential issues and other common user use cases. Things like the window ideal size / flexibility or window hint's was left out however... since that is assumed to be a complementary and independant feature regarding window presentation. Wheras my design document was focused more about fundamental underlying tiling behaviours and functionality, necessary data structure representations etc.
Yeah more restrictions. For the record if tiling is implemented expecting all applications to fit the paradigm neatly just wont happen. it is either you like or you find a use case for it. I am a bit worried that more and more systems are going towards tiling as though it is the future of the desktop. This is a huge part of the reason linux has not gone mainstream. That and the fact we still use files to configure everything when a program could just have easily have a GUI.
I hate it. I'm turning it off asap and I'll add turning it off to my home script. If I want to tile stuff I'll do it myself.
Again ? Have they ever make a roadmap ? Looks like a dog chasing balls, it's confusing which ball to catch
I'm sure someone is going to make an app to crowd source and edit min-max-prefered window sizes for apps.
About the workspace indicator, I think this would be nice to have, but as others have said I would prefer if the pill were smaller to give a more consistent position, make it easier to tell at a glance which desktop you're on, and accessibility, as well as getting rid of the gradient and updating the workspace switcher OSD to use the same styling. Also, I feel like there should still be some kind of indicator for the currently focussed app, even if it's not the actual app menu that currently exists. Maybe there's some way to merge that with this, or maybe you could just keep the app menu around.
hey Shaggy where's Scooby?
For some apps like a file manager or a web browser there is not one best size or aspect ratio. It will depend on what you are doing. I have come to the conclusion that the user needs to choose how their windows are sized and laid out because there is no way any system can anticipate what they are actually using the computer for. The emphasis needs to be on making the placing and size of (application) windows an option when the are opened (I have not seen anything that does this yet). I like the KDE activities where you can have a layout of windows ready to load it helps for commonly used tasks that require more than one app window. If you are going to have a simple mode with one size fits all then I think having all windows maximized (like a phone or tablet) is the best option.
An app could share the "best size / aspect ratio" in the future, but I think the better approach would be to use that if it's available, but to prioritize the last size the user set for this app. Set it and forget it. Most sites and many apps these days are built to support many different screen sizes and aspect ratios, so the users window size preference should take priority. The app might want to be as big as possible, but I want it to be small and tall.
I've two monitors and most of the time both contains only one maximized window. There are some cases, when I need two windows side by side or have small floating windows with notes at screen corner, but that's all. So this tiling approach is not for me, I'm not gonna use it.
at the end cosmic desktop environment will grow to a bigger piece of the DE cake and gnome has to loose probably the biggest bite to it because it's fucntionally the nearest de and users will switch over more from gnome than from kde for example, and while cosmic is implementing some cool tiling features the gnome guys just had to come up with something equaliy cool, but still they will loose users. it's inevitable. but i'm curious how the new tiling stuff will turn out.
When I make software I don't really care how many people use it, I just care that it works for me and publish it in case someone else likes it too. I imagine most gnome devs have a similar mindset, hence why it lacks some features some people would like like a system tray or a permanently visible dock
Poor, poor KDE. Getting left behind by Gnome of all things.
Hmm... Microsoft also wants to implement mosaic into their windows 11. Is it some kind of cooperation?
No, just plagiarism.
I think Qt Widgets already has a way to tell the preferred size. At least in Qt Designer I have the "preferred" size policy, and I can also set minimum and maximum sizes on the main window.
That's within the window. Preferred size policy is not exposed to the window manager, at least I don't think it is.
@@dzibanart8521 I see, thought this would need to be exposed, so the window manager could set the size accordingly. If not, then maybe at least there are no changes required from the application developer and an update somewhere in the backend is enough to expose this. Let's see
How do you feel that System76's Cosmic Desktop Environment does the same thing. And this is available in MacOS too. Starting to feel as if all desktops are heading this way. Like Hyprland and Sway.
4K? WHY? :)
NEWM is kind of cool..
To be honest if GNOME goes to tiling by default they going to run even more folks off then they did with the change from GNOME 2 to 3. they need to be very careful with such a change unless they want to become a niche DE. tiling has it place but to be frank its not for everyday 24/7 use unless you hate yourself
You had me in the first half
Great presentation of news, as always. However, do you edit your videos by your own or someone is helping you, because videos will be better without any music in the background, seriously 😉
You look like shaggy
Fio Banka :))
what is that background music?
super + right click on plasma solves this "fiddly work" lol
Gnome has that too and sure it speeds things up a lot, but you still have to manage positions/sizes, it just doesn't take as long
I agree that it makes it a lot easier (and super + right click is in basically every desktop, not only GNOME but Sway and Hyprland as well), but it doesn't completely get rid of the jank.
@@fotnite_ i dont really see how its jank, tiling window managers seem more jank to me
Thank God I use Unity. Tiling, really, come-on....
The best size is maximized. I've tried, for decades.
Seems like i'm the odd one out. But i don't like it. Not even a little bit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good thing nobody is forcing you to use Gnome....
@@BigTylt Good thing nobody needed you to tell them that. The floor is open to opinions, let the man have his opinion you spaz.
I guess it's about that time again for GNOME to reinvent its identity all over again and piss off its userbase again, everybody's been getting a little too comfortable.
Gnome loves to tell people "You're holding it wrong" and "we know what's best for you, down to the right window size", and its users love being told as well :)
Thats why I love KDE.
You're goddamn right.
So apple of linux?
Exactly @@trayvibez399
Well another reason I'm not using Gnome lol I like floating windows with snapping
I think gnome developers should rather concentrate their efforts on more urgent features that gnome lacks.
Such as?
such as?
@@felixfourcolor ... oh, I don't know... theming support? gtk inter-compatibility? extensions inter-compatibility? customize keybindings? custom shortcuts in Nautilus? customizing many other settings without having to open gsettings, maybe using a gui like any other DE? oh, and speaking of DEs that have 2 or 3 times its complexity and configurability but still manage to occupy 1/3 of the ram gnome uses... how about improving ram usage? responsiveness in opening applications? ... and more.
Oh, wait: CHOOSING A WALLPAPER without having to copy it in the image folder? maybe a gui for selecting the wallpaper folder? Maybe this got implemented recently, I don't know, you tell me. The developers usually take their time to implement features that are rarely used, like when they finally introduced that obscure, only for nerd setting... wich was it? Oh yes: the SCREEN REFRESH RATE.
Gnome does what gnome wants, no more.
"More urgent features that GNOME lacks"
So, basically everything that they had 12 years ago when they decided to completely flip the bird to their user-base?
GNOME isn't missing features that they haven't bothered to develop. GNOME is missing features that were developed and then deliberately ripped out.
GNOME won't be a functional desktop environment while the current project leadership remains in place, period.
More power to Gnome, but I'm finding it has a dangerously deep influence on almost every other DE except KDE and doesn't help customization at all. Especially when it goes out of its way to be a special snowflake and more people have defaulted to building for it. It's a shame when some very useful software is built for gnome, ie, bottles.