I definitely think everything should begin to go Wayland by default, and see what programs still don't work, porting all of those over, and remaking needed drivers. I agree that it's not yet time though for everything to go Wayland-Exclusive, as yeah, that could actively be a worse user experience. SteamOS currently uses both depending on which mode you're using.
Unfortunately some applications that are still widely used don't have developers working on them anymore (and a lot are unlikely to draw many devs), this is why XWayland in my opinion is so important to Wayland. Think scientific apps, old apps ect. I'm really rooting for a complete and successful Wayland transition though, it will be so good for Linux in the long run.
@@hopelessdecoyif they are not maintained they will becoming increasingly unsafe for direct use - this scenario is ideal for them to run in a VM and then their continued use in X ceases to be a concern
To be honest I kinda understand why they want to remove x11, just as one of Fedora KDE maintainer said "we dont want to be put in the position were we have to maintain x11", that pretty much a good reason to drop it since once all the remaining maintainers of x11 all leave the project those who still have dependecies on it have to automatically step in to maintain it adding more work to the devs. So removing dependecies for as much as possible is the best move before they will be caught while their pants is down....
9:13 Like you mentioned later on, this is untrue as of the Nvidia 495 series drivers. Before those, this _was_ true, however, once the 495 series drivers were released, Nvidia's propietary drivers supported both EGLStreams _and_ GBM, which, funnily enough, led KDE Plasma to drop EGLStreams support from KWin. That is why KWin doesn't work on Wayland for Nvidia drivers prior to the 495 series.
This is a great change, and I hope other major DEs will follow. Naturally, Wayland isn't perfect even now, but only if people start using it, situation may change. Why would the manufacturer ship drivers, and developers release apps that support Wayland, if no one uses it. It's a locked circle.
I currently have an nvidia card. And KDE Plasma Wayland compositor seems to have an issue with the 545 driver branch. Which is extreme hitching and stuttering. Already made a video of it and maybe I am gonna upload that to youtube. This seems to be some interaction issue with the Plasma Implementation of wayland and the nvidia driver, as I dont seem to have those hitchings on hyprland.
x11 allows me to forward the GUI from a server behind a gateway on my local machine. it's a pretty nice feature. Don't know if Wayland can do that too.
This depends on the implementation of the compositor projects. There's talks of RDP,but so far, everyone is using slower versions of VNC. It is possible though.
Granted, THAT is something XOrg is meant for. Though if and when the free implementations of RDP get better, I could see them being good enough for most uses.
That is a cool feature but very old school. Servers can be maintained over ssh and if a graphical interface is desired they have migrated to web based solutions. Modern apps are moving to running in web browsers as well including desktops.
@@leopard3131 I understand it's a niche use case. I still use Wayland on my personal devices. also what I described is kind of the whole reason x11 exists so it's not really relevant for personal computing devices. I could definitely live without it. however dropping support for x11 eventually will be a tough pill for me to swallow.
I have massive, unsolvable issues on KDEs Wayland session. Using an Intel iGPU + Tumbleweed (but also tried Fedora and others), my desktop icons would shuffle around every time the monitor goes to standby and/or gets switched off/disconnected. I've made Reddit posts, bug reports, interacted with Nate about it. This was two years ago. "It'll be fixed in [insert next version number]" is what I've heard. It's still not fixed in 2023. The day a distro forces me to abandon X11 (and if Wayland isnt fixed by then), I would have to go back to damn Windows after going full time Linux in 2021.
On plasma wayland since august 2021. So far so good. In 2021 was a bit messy.... but nowadays on plasm 5.27 is perfect for my use case. Hope that kde will follow gnome on this matter.
3:00 Less code means less possibilities. I use X2Go almost everyday to connect to my office and I use XFCE because it is lighter than others for remote work. What can I use in case of Wayland? I've tried waypipe, but it is much much slower, it has a huge latency on the same connection where X2go does not. Can Wayland offer something me to fix that? No, it cannot.
5:51 almost got it the last time. It's an S sound though, not a Z. Lighting looked fine to me btw. The mouse clicking was kinda sharp though. I, for one, never really looked into what X11 and Wayland are, and have never really had much of a problem. I'm on Wayland already so I guess nothing would change for me anyway.
I'm on Fedora 38 with Gnome 44, and Skype couldn't share the screen under Wayland session, same for VMWare Workstation Pro (but I think even in Player), it couldn't share the clipboard correctly (so no copy/paste from host to guest under Wayland, and no, it's not a guest-addition problem)... I know that those problems are not caused by Wayland itself istead of poor developer choices, but the result is what matter, and if I (and I think other people) can't use those programs under wayland... well, I must revert on X11
just read the title.. xD went from wayland on gnome (debian) to x11.. because of streaming is broken (OBS) on wayland. love wayland tho, also i got 20-30fps more on x11 while gaming
My worry is that nvidia may just chose to slowly drop Linux driver support (for consumer-grade cards) rather than just support Wayland properly. Some people seem to think that dropping X11 will force nvidia’s hand into properly supporting Wayland, but that’s a gamble. It could just as easily go the other direction.
If this happens, we have a couple of years, where you can restore the X Session with a single file. That "should" be enough time for the current GPU you own to near it's end. And then we just replace it with an AMD card. I know there's older hardware and such, and upgrade cycles in hardware have been much slower, but in case you're stuck with Nvidia and Gnome Actually removed X from it's codebase (and not only the session file), there will be other DEs one can use. Heck, knowing the Linux crowd, someone will "just fork" gnome with X support, like mate came from a Gnome 2 fork.
Nvidia just pushed a driver update a couple days ago that implements many missing features for Wayland. "Among the many new features with the NVIDIA R545 series is much better Wayland support, experimental HDMI 10 bits per component support, support for additional gamma LUT CRTC properties used for Night Light / Night Color handling, the GeForce and Workstation GPU support is now considered "certified" quality on the open-source kernel modules, experimental support for runtime D3 (RTD3) power management for desktop GPUs, various new Vulkan extensions, experimental support for frame-buffer consoles with the NVIDIA DRM driver, and much more. On the Wayland side there is support for the night color / night light features, support for VR displays (i.e. SteamVR platform) on Wayland compositors that support DRM leasing, Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) support, NVIDIA VDPAU support on XWayland, and support for PRIME render offload to Vulkan Wayland WSI."
Recent Nvidia GPU drivers improved Wayland support a lot, so I don't think they will drop desktop support. Also nouveau will have reclocking support on Turing and newer cards, so in case if they drop it, then in the future you can use nvk (and zink for OpenGL stuff), and if you need CUDA stuff, then you just modprobe nvidia modules.
This is good! X11 user holdovers are usually the guys who really have specific usecases like tiling managers or multi-window applications. Nvidia users just need to wait for 545, I've tested the beta driver and it is really smooth for wayland, with unredirection (no vsync) working really well. For the general users, they should be using wayland right now or at least in the next 6 months
We needed GNOME to do this. Linux needs to go Wayland asap. X11 has been basically abandoned for many years, but tech evolution can't stop. Being the base of everything that is displayed on the screen, everyday we go with X11 still being used by most is another day Linux does not evolve. People who complain about Wayland don't understand that Wayland is still behind because X11 is still very used. Nvidia still focuses on X11 for example. It's sad and we need this huge push from Gnome. I hope KDE follows suit. The big DEs need to carry the Linux world, elitists and smaller DEs will never let it evolve otherwise.
@@Aura_Mancer that is why there is so many choice for DEs. If you need X11 and absolutely need to keep running an old system with no drivers do wayland or some critical work that depends on X11, don't run Fedora or Tumbleweed, run Ubuntu LTS, because I'm sure they will not remove X11 anytime soon. However I am fine with Gnome doing this because the only distros that will make this change will be the bleeding edge distros like Fedora. However we need this change to happen so we make some pressure on Nvidia and others to actually focus on wayland once and for all.
I won't be switching to Wayland, since X11 performance for my GPU are quite fast and noticeable. May wayland drivers advance in future and I'll switch.
I have been using the Gnome Shell Wayland session since 3.32 on my 2011 Macbook Pro, it's still lacking a few features for a percentage of Linux users but I believe aging laptop users who aren't gamers or streamers have nothing but considerable gains by switching to Wayland, that alone is a huge share of the Linux user land, smoother user experience and way better trackpad support are enough to make many reconsider.
@@giusdbg that doesn't really answer my question - afaik x11 always ran as root which was a big issue. there are ways to get a rootless x11 but the effort is not worth the trouble . my question was since wayland is not x11 , did the devs engineer wayland to run as non-root from the start or no?
I've been loving Wayland on KDE on my laptop and desktop for well over a year now. Had literally NO problems attributable to it. It might help that they're running Arch, but I suspect it's just that I took care with the set up and don't have any obscure hardware.
Well, Gnome does not regonize my external monitor - MSI Optix G24. It shows just black screen with few white little squares. Everytime I want go for linux instead of Windows, something goes wrong.
I haven't used X11 in half a year and I'm rocking a NVIDIA GPU running KDE Plasma. And it seems it will only get better with the 545 driver and plasma 6, so i ain't seeing a reason to go back to x11 soon.
@iwastoolazytonamethischannel Window managers always gave me issues so I can't help with that. Heard Hyprland was pretty good and Wayland friendly, maybe try that.
Well I run an optimus Laptop. My wayland experience was OK, but until I get the 545 driver native Vulkan while using offloading doesn't work. And retroarch keeps on Not starting (when offloading)
@iwastoolazytonamethischannel sorry can I ask hat card you're using? And nvidia is known to Not work well with wayland yet. It's probably the biggest showstopper rn.
I'm excited for Wayland, but it needs a lot more features before I give up X, especially on Plasma. I hope the rumors of Plasma 6 removing custom shortcuts (mouse gestures), window shading, etc. are false.
They are not removing them, they are reworking them since the API for those is quite old. But as far as I've read in the PRs, the transition to the new API will be smooth, even converting your old Custom Shortcuts to the new one when updating to Plasma 6
@@Aura_Mancer Ok, so they will still be in Plasma 6 just a different API and should work the same way for the user? I hope that means that they will come to Wayland too since it already lacks both mouse gestures and window shading (for QT5 apps, server-side GTK apps like Firefox still has shading on Wayland)
Unless you are coding it is not up to you. The xorg developers have been telling you for a decade x11 can not be supported long term. Time to migrate to Wayland and code the features you need otherwise you are going to be left behind
I'm fine with Gnome and Plasma dropping X11 as long as wayland gets proper color management support for loading icc color profiles for my displays, as I am a videographer using Davinci resolve so I need accurate color of my displays and software. If X11 is drooped before color management is supported in wayland that will force me to go to windows.
I really don't think wayland's governance is really that great, and I won't switch over to it until they do some massive rework of the system that enables just one person to deny clearly useful and highly practical features. It's not as simple as report a bug and get it fixed with the next update. I'd rather stick with a more stable system that I know works.
Gnome Team: "Yea everyone uses a mouse right?" Me: "Yeah but what about Drawing tablets" Gnome Team: "Ehh about that.." Gnome Team: *Drops x11* Me: 😱😭 For real though.. The adoption to wayland and wayland being stable is like a yin-yang.. Or more yang because I still have loads of trouble with it.. Though Oct 30th 2023 is it's *first* beta release.. It's been in it's alpha stage since, Oct 12 2012. Here's hoping it doesn't take another 10 years for a stable release 😆...😰
I have a drawing tablet and a drawing display tablet and I'm on Wayland. It's not great, but it's functional. I now use the drawing display tablet on my Mac exclusively. Although that's mostly because my Linux laptop only has one USB C port. Still, it's much easier to use on Mac and the companion app actually works on Mac.
This is the same issue for, I have a huion drawing tablet, Wayland has many limitations plus, my pen's mouse right click just doesn't work in Wayland, whereas Xorg works just fine.
I'd love to switch over to Wayland, but other proprietary software like Zoom is another aspect that's holding things back. Zoom sort of works fine on X11 right now. Zoom on Wayland is sort of supported but it has severe preformance degradation compared to X11 to the point where your entire machine becomes unuseable. None of this is the fault of Wayland, KDE or GNOME devs, and is a total fuck up by Zoom. But many companies and its users use software like Zoom, its part of a daily workflow and removing X11 will break for these users. Wanted to bring an alternate perspective here as a Linux user who's been daily driving Linux for close to two decades now.
I'm less concerned with GNOME as it's been very solid on Wayland in my experience. Plasma is a different story though. Panels flying all over the place, disappearing elements or other bug outs out still happens to me often on the latest version. Hopefully KDE can get these issues sorted before dropping support.
KDE is definitely improving. Two weeks ago flatpak applications like LibreOffice had VERY blurry font rendering. Like if fonts were bitmaps and were scaled. Now it works fine. I was so surprised, I checked if I'm in wayland, as I thought I chose Plasma(X11) by mistake.
IMO kwin is not stable. I just left my computer for like 5-10min (only chrome with 1 tab was open) and when I come back kwin had crashed like 5 times, I could not send the bug report thing because it kept crashing. Usually works like this until I reboot my machine, some rare days I have to reboot twice.
My opinion is that all distros should always include a minimal but functional X11 environment (mainly Xfce or openbox) by default as an option to be selected in display manager and KDE and GNOME should just drop X11. If a user needs the X11 and XWayland does not do it then he can just select the alternative desktop environment
But they do not have the resources to support X11 on all those DE, window managers, and apps. This is an unrealistic expectation. Far better to start the migration and avoiding Wayland is a dead end.
I wouldn't prefer Wayland to be the default, as I find the modularity and flexibility of X11 to be extremely valuable (despite its security implications). For instance, in an X11 session, I can kill the window manager process and start a new one, and my windows will still be there. This is just one example. X11 seems to be much more flexible and hackable compared to Wayland. Perhaps Wayland is better suited for users who simply want to boost FPS in their favorite game, while X11 is for those who appreciate a flexible/hackeable environment.
Actually while X11 is easier to modify on the fly on production than Wayland, X11 is actually less flexible in its code than Wayland. The main reason every devs, including the Xorg fondation, shifted to Wayland is that you cannot add more features to Xorg, either due to its size and spaghetti code nature, (even if the devs wanted, adding HDR would be a syphysian task) or by its architecture. (X11 server cannot manage natively several monitors so the current hack is having a single virtual monitor made of all the physical monitor. Which contraint things, like imposible a single shared refresh rate.) Meanwhile Wayland allows everything X11 allows except network transparency (and protocoles like VNC file the gap for 99% of remote desktop use cases), plus adding new modern features. However you need to rewrite a lot of things to reimplement all the X11 features other than network transparency. But this is the core of why EVERY devs involved in desktop rendering* shifted to working on Wayland. Not the increased security but the fact that X11 reached and evolutionary dead end due to being a mammoth made of spaghetti code. *Not to confuse with application devs.
I have a Nvidia card so its not an easy state to be in, have app startup stutter on X11 or sub-par experience on Wayland. Damned if I do, Damned if I dont. So I generally use Windows on my Nvidia machines till Nvidia finally get their drivers in order
Good, now that NVIDIA is taking Wayland support more seriously with the new beta driver, we can finally let X11 die already. It's antiquated beyond belief. Plenty of things don't work, especially for games and multimedia, like VRR/FreeSync and HDR support, and the VRR support that does exist (through config tweaks) is extremely hacky at best. Wayland works with fractional scaling pretty well, and I'd argue it's far less crappy than how Windows handles it (where you have to adjust compatibility settings on a per-game basis because most games don't handle high DPIs correctly). Maybe now that this progress is being made, we might be able to see HDR support on SteamOS 3's desktop mode (and as a result, the system defaulting to Plasma 6's Wayland mode), and we might see a proper desktop release (outside the Deck) now that NVIDIA cards are improving their Linux support. I hate using the Deck's desktop mode or HoloISO in desktop mode because it defaults to X11 which has no VRR/FreeSync or HDR support. There's some software (like Presonus Studio One) that is being released on Linux with only Wayland support, and companies like Adobe have next to no excuses to not support Linux now (color management being one of the big ones I saw people cite) outside of ringing Creative Cloud subscribers for money that they do next to nothing with. Firefox can also go about supporting HDR video now, as they were the odd one out on Windows in terms of not supporting it. XWayland being supported still is generally good enough for legacy software. And with how Gamescope actually makes older games far less painful to run compared to Windows, and we might be in for some interesting times.
Gnome must be running out of user-interface features to remove. Now it's looking at what underlying system components can be removed. What we really need them to do is look at what devs can be removed.
Yo lo unico que se llevo desee la 10.04 usando UBuntu con X11 y aunque he tenido problemas han sido menores que usando wayland, de hecho he tenido que bloquearlo porque literalmente no podia acceder a mi ububtu 22.04 ya que la pantalla se quedaba en negro antes de llegar al logueo para entrar al escritorio. Lo que oigo mucho es que los gráficos es que el HDR que los juegos , a mi eso no me interesa me interesa un sistema que no me obligue a parar mi pc a lo bruto porque al señor entiendase wayland le da oor no arrancar cada vez que quiero usar mi pc. Y ojo yo uso intel no Nvidia... Hasta wue wayland que lleva en fase incial desee 2008 no pueda ser compatible con miles de programas aun hoy usados incluido obs que va como el culo ya sea x11 o wayland mejor me quedo en X11, si es que hay problemas hasta para ver videos . Wayland sera el futruro pero quiero un futuro seguro y wayland no me lo da.
X11 is so buggy... i switched to wayland, i play VR, draw in krita and play games... on KDE i don't have issues with the tablet with my workflow(thanks for thinking of us artists). X11 had issues with VRR, got temporary IPS burn in with some apps that didn't play nice with VRR, display flickering and on and on. switched to wayland last week and found out that VR actually works. X11 is too unstable to use, even if it's better, i am on a full AMD system so that may be it
If Mutter goes Wayland only, then desktops could use Muffin, which is Cinnamon's fork of Mutter. Hopefully, by then, it will be less laggy and resource intensive than it is now. (Also, Elementary has its own WM named Gala)
Heads up the X11 developers are dropping support for X11. So is KDE and Fedora and unless the X11 fanbois start coding Arch, Debian, XFCE, Cinnamon, etc arenot far behind. Wake up and use Wayland or start coding.
So, ready or not, here come the "upgrades". I still can't daily drive Wayland either and I've been using KDE for 25-ish years and I don't have Nvidia hardware. I just hope they fix all the issues before I'm forced to use Wayland as a daily driver because I'm not switching from KDE. Anyone that suggests GNOME or another feature-lacking WM better kiss their teeth goodbye.
I definitely think everything should begin to go Wayland by default, and see what programs still don't work, porting all of those over, and remaking needed drivers. I agree that it's not yet time though for everything to go Wayland-Exclusive, as yeah, that could actively be a worse user experience. SteamOS currently uses both depending on which mode you're using.
Unfortunately some applications that are still widely used don't have developers working on them anymore (and a lot are unlikely to draw many devs), this is why XWayland in my opinion is so important to Wayland. Think scientific apps, old apps ect. I'm really rooting for a complete and successful Wayland transition though, it will be so good for Linux in the long run.
Wayland already is the default, at least for GNOME on most distros. Even Ubuntu LTS defaults to Wayland (expect on the Nvidia binary driver).
@@hopelessdecoyif they are not maintained they will becoming increasingly unsafe for direct use - this scenario is ideal for them to run in a VM and then their continued use in X ceases to be a concern
X11 is dying and Wayland struggles to be born. Now is the time for the Linux Desktop.
To be honest I kinda understand why they want to remove x11, just as one of Fedora KDE maintainer said "we dont want to be put in the position were we have to maintain x11", that pretty much a good reason to drop it since once all the remaining maintainers of x11 all leave the project those who still have dependecies on it have to automatically step in to maintain it adding more work to the devs. So removing dependecies for as much as possible is the best move before they will be caught while their pants is down....
I like your effort to pronounce the tricky words. Bravissimo!
Good! I'm on Wayland and I'm tired of the bugs. Hopefully this gets more of those fixed!
9:13 Like you mentioned later on, this is untrue as of the Nvidia 495 series drivers. Before those, this _was_ true, however, once the 495 series drivers were released, Nvidia's propietary drivers supported both EGLStreams _and_ GBM, which, funnily enough, led KDE Plasma to drop EGLStreams support from KWin. That is why KWin doesn't work on Wayland for Nvidia drivers prior to the 495 series.
This is a great change, and I hope other major DEs will follow. Naturally, Wayland isn't perfect even now, but only if people start using it, situation may change. Why would the manufacturer ship drivers, and developers release apps that support Wayland, if no one uses it. It's a locked circle.
Catch 22
Everyone needs to move to wayland
why?
@@pantarei. Because X11 isn't maintained anymore
@@jake3111 okay... Gnome has a problem with my monitor - MSI Optix G24... so apparently I should give up Gnome.
@@pantarei. Yeah use whatever works best with your setup. Make a bug report to let the team know there's an issue
I still can't use Wayland with KDE, the screen looks blurry when I scale the monitor to 125%
I currently have an nvidia card. And KDE Plasma Wayland compositor seems to have an issue with the 545 driver branch. Which is extreme hitching and stuttering.
Already made a video of it and maybe I am gonna upload that to youtube.
This seems to be some interaction issue with the Plasma Implementation of wayland and the nvidia driver, as I dont seem to have those hitchings on hyprland.
But I can fully confirm that 545 oposed to 535 does not force vsynch anymore for fullscreen applications.
I guess its somehow related.
On my desktop I dropped x11 6 months ago 😜
x11 allows me to forward the GUI from a server behind a gateway on my local machine. it's a pretty nice feature. Don't know if Wayland can do that too.
There is a utility called waypipe, but it is very slow in my case.
This depends on the implementation of the compositor projects. There's talks of RDP,but so far, everyone is using slower versions of VNC. It is possible though.
Granted, THAT is something XOrg is meant for. Though if and when the free implementations of RDP get better, I could see them being good enough for most uses.
That is a cool feature but very old school.
Servers can be maintained over ssh and if a graphical interface is desired they have migrated to web based solutions.
Modern apps are moving to running in web browsers as well including desktops.
@@leopard3131 I understand it's a niche use case. I still use Wayland on my personal devices. also what I described is kind of the whole reason x11 exists so it's not really relevant for personal computing devices. I could definitely live without it. however dropping support for x11 eventually will be a tough pill for me to swallow.
I have massive, unsolvable issues on KDEs Wayland session. Using an Intel iGPU + Tumbleweed (but also tried Fedora and others), my desktop icons would shuffle around every time the monitor goes to standby and/or gets switched off/disconnected. I've made Reddit posts, bug reports, interacted with Nate about it.
This was two years ago. "It'll be fixed in [insert next version number]" is what I've heard.
It's still not fixed in 2023. The day a distro forces me to abandon X11 (and if Wayland isnt fixed by then), I would have to go back to damn Windows after going full time Linux in 2021.
On plasma wayland since august 2021. So far so good. In 2021 was a bit messy.... but nowadays on plasm 5.27 is perfect for my use case.
Hope that kde will follow gnome on this matter.
3:00 Less code means less possibilities. I use X2Go almost everyday to connect to my office and I use XFCE because it is lighter than others for remote work. What can I use in case of Wayland? I've tried waypipe, but it is much much slower, it has a huge latency on the same connection where X2go does not. Can Wayland offer something me to fix that? No, it cannot.
You really need to tell your editor to tune down on the constant sound effects, clicks, screen effects etc. It's almost unwatchable.
5:51 almost got it the last time. It's an S sound though, not a Z. Lighting looked fine to me btw. The mouse clicking was kinda sharp though.
I, for one, never really looked into what X11 and Wayland are, and have never really had much of a problem. I'm on Wayland already so I guess nothing would change for me anyway.
Tbh once my Wayland broke, x11 was a life saver there ..idk just me
I'm on Fedora 38 with Gnome 44, and Skype couldn't share the screen under Wayland session, same for VMWare Workstation Pro (but I think even in Player), it couldn't share the clipboard correctly (so no copy/paste from host to guest under Wayland, and no, it's not a guest-addition problem)... I know that those problems are not caused by Wayland itself istead of poor developer choices, but the result is what matter, and if I (and I think other people) can't use those programs under wayland... well, I must revert on X11
Gnome is the Avant Garde of Change. This is 3.0 all over again. They *will* come around. Gnome *will* keep winning.
Winning what? Broken compatibility and loss of features?
I don't think that tablet interface on desktops is winning
@@0alsh Winning the desktop Race. Stick with XFCE or TWM if you want the “features”.
@@ukyoize In real world yes it is. Good thing about Linux is people still can stick with xfce or twm.
@@IMBREISGAU Wait, tom's window manager? Or now renamed as Tabbed window manager? The xorg-twm floating and tabbed window manager?
just read the title.. xD went from wayland on gnome (debian) to x11.. because of streaming is broken (OBS) on wayland.
love wayland tho, also i got 20-30fps more on x11 while gaming
，finally wayland all the way
It won't work for me. I'm X11 for many more years still. Wayland is just a lad to me.
My worry is that nvidia may just chose to slowly drop Linux driver support (for consumer-grade cards) rather than just support Wayland properly. Some people seem to think that dropping X11 will force nvidia’s hand into properly supporting Wayland, but that’s a gamble. It could just as easily go the other direction.
If this happens, we have a couple of years, where you can restore the X Session with a single file. That "should" be enough time for the current GPU you own to near it's end. And then we just replace it with an AMD card. I know there's older hardware and such, and upgrade cycles in hardware have been much slower, but in case you're stuck with Nvidia and Gnome Actually removed X from it's codebase (and not only the session file), there will be other DEs one can use. Heck, knowing the Linux crowd, someone will "just fork" gnome with X support, like mate came from a Gnome 2 fork.
Nvidia just pushed a driver update a couple days ago that implements many missing features for Wayland.
"Among the many new features with the NVIDIA R545 series is much better Wayland support, experimental HDMI 10 bits per component support, support for additional gamma LUT CRTC properties used for Night Light / Night Color handling, the GeForce and Workstation GPU support is now considered "certified" quality on the open-source kernel modules, experimental support for runtime D3 (RTD3) power management for desktop GPUs, various new Vulkan extensions, experimental support for frame-buffer consoles with the NVIDIA DRM driver, and much more.
On the Wayland side there is support for the night color / night light features, support for VR displays (i.e. SteamVR platform) on Wayland compositors that support DRM leasing, Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) support, NVIDIA VDPAU support on XWayland, and support for PRIME render offload to Vulkan Wayland WSI."
Recent Nvidia GPU drivers improved Wayland support a lot, so I don't think they will drop desktop support. Also nouveau will have reclocking support on Turing and newer cards, so in case if they drop it, then in the future you can use nvk (and zink for OpenGL stuff), and if you need CUDA stuff, then you just modprobe nvidia modules.
This is good! X11 user holdovers are usually the guys who really have specific usecases like tiling managers or multi-window applications. Nvidia users just need to wait for 545, I've tested the beta driver and it is really smooth for wayland, with unredirection (no vsync) working really well. For the general users, they should be using wayland right now or at least in the next 6 months
Wait there is a new nvidia driver for wayland?
Does GSync on Wayland work with this new driver?
> like tiling managers
Sway works great. So is Hyprland. We should be more specific here.
and users of other Desktop environments obviously
@@KingKrouchit should, Wayland actually has protocol support for adaptive sync tech so it should be in your DE's display settings
We needed GNOME to do this. Linux needs to go Wayland asap. X11 has been basically abandoned for many years, but tech evolution can't stop. Being the base of everything that is displayed on the screen, everyday we go with X11 still being used by most is another day Linux does not evolve. People who complain about Wayland don't understand that Wayland is still behind because X11 is still very used. Nvidia still focuses on X11 for example. It's sad and we need this huge push from Gnome. I hope KDE follows suit. The big DEs need to carry the Linux world, elitists and smaller DEs will never let it evolve otherwise.
See the crap flatpaks get.
Sure flatpaks have serious problems but the sickness of elitism has gone unchecked for too long
You just can't break user's systems for the sake of progress, though.
@@Aura_MancerRight. "Don't break userspace" - Linus Torvalds
@@Aura_Mancer that is why there is so many choice for DEs. If you need X11 and absolutely need to keep running an old system with no drivers do wayland or some critical work that depends on X11, don't run Fedora or Tumbleweed, run Ubuntu LTS, because I'm sure they will not remove X11 anytime soon. However I am fine with Gnome doing this because the only distros that will make this change will be the bleeding edge distros like Fedora. However we need this change to happen so we make some pressure on Nvidia and others to actually focus on wayland once and for all.
I won't be switching to Wayland, since X11 performance for my GPU are quite fast and noticeable. May wayland drivers advance in future and I'll switch.
Screw x11. Rip off the frggn bandaid already!!!!!!
I have been using the Gnome Shell Wayland session since 3.32 on my 2011 Macbook Pro, it's still lacking a few features for a percentage of Linux users but I believe aging laptop users who aren't gamers or streamers have nothing but considerable gains by switching to Wayland, that alone is a huge share of the Linux user land, smoother user experience and way better trackpad support are enough to make many reconsider.
About the 1 million bucks part
What do you think about KwinFT in 2023?
I'm not that interested in the project TBH
the thing about wayland though, is it indeed rootless? that was one of X11's biggest issues..... is wayland by default rootless?
@@giusdbg that doesn't really answer my question - afaik x11 always ran as root which was a big issue. there are ways to get a rootless x11 but the effort is not worth the trouble . my question was since wayland is not x11 , did the devs engineer wayland to run as non-root from the start or no?
I've been loving Wayland on KDE on my laptop and desktop for well over a year now. Had literally NO problems attributable to it.
It might help that they're running Arch, but I suspect it's just that I took care with the set up and don't have any obscure hardware.
The click sound effect is way too loud
need graphic tablet and color management for my daily work ... so wayland is useless for me ... what to do? Windows?
Xorg has been dead for years, how is this news???
Well, Gnome does not regonize my external monitor - MSI Optix G24. It shows just black screen with few white little squares.
Everytime I want go for linux instead of Windows, something goes wrong.
I haven't used X11 in half a year and I'm rocking a NVIDIA GPU running KDE Plasma. And it seems it will only get better with the 545 driver and plasma 6, so i ain't seeing a reason to go back to x11 soon.
@iwastoolazytonamethischannel Window managers always gave me issues so I can't help with that. Heard Hyprland was pretty good and Wayland friendly, maybe try that.
Well I run an optimus Laptop. My wayland experience was OK, but until I get the 545 driver native Vulkan while using offloading doesn't work. And retroarch keeps on Not starting (when offloading)
@iwastoolazytonamethischannel sorry can I ask hat card you're using? And nvidia is known to Not work well with wayland yet. It's probably the biggest showstopper rn.
@iwastoolazytonamethischannel alright so probably driver 535 still. I guess it's wait for 545 drivers and See if IT works then.
@iwastoolazytonamethischannel that sounds horrible. I hope your experience gets way better soon.
High time to get rid of it!
I'm excited for Wayland, but it needs a lot more features before I give up X, especially on Plasma.
I hope the rumors of Plasma 6 removing custom shortcuts (mouse gestures), window shading, etc. are false.
They are not removing them, they are reworking them since the API for those is quite old. But as far as I've read in the PRs, the transition to the new API will be smooth, even converting your old Custom Shortcuts to the new one when updating to Plasma 6
@@Aura_Mancer Ok, so they will still be in Plasma 6 just a different API and should work the same way for the user?
I hope that means that they will come to Wayland too since it already lacks both mouse gestures and window shading (for QT5 apps, server-side GTK apps like Firefox still has shading on Wayland)
It needs to change. Wayland has a lot of advantages for programmers and users.
Unless you are coding it is not up to you. The xorg developers have been telling you for a decade x11 can not be supported long term.
Time to migrate to Wayland and code the features you need otherwise you are going to be left behind
Hey Nicco, why hasn't KDE Plasma Wayland gotten customizable touchpad gestures?
Wow the metric gazillion of memes I was transported through while watching this video.
I'm fine with Gnome and Plasma dropping X11 as long as wayland gets proper color management support for loading icc color profiles for my displays, as I am a videographer using Davinci resolve so I need accurate color of my displays and software. If X11 is drooped before color management is supported in wayland that will force me to go to windows.
I really don't think wayland's governance is really that great, and I won't switch over to it until they do some massive rework of the system that enables just one person to deny clearly useful and highly practical features. It's not as simple as report a bug and get it fixed with the next update. I'd rather stick with a more stable system that I know works.
Gnome Team: "Yea everyone uses a mouse right?"
Me: "Yeah but what about Drawing tablets"
Gnome Team: "Ehh about that.."
Gnome Team: *Drops x11*
Me: 😱😭
For real though.. The adoption to wayland and wayland being stable is like a yin-yang.. Or more yang because I still have loads of trouble with it..
Though Oct 30th 2023 is it's *first* beta release.. It's been in it's alpha stage since, Oct 12 2012. Here's hoping it doesn't take another 10 years for a stable release 😆...😰
I have a drawing tablet and a drawing display tablet and I'm on Wayland. It's not great, but it's functional. I now use the drawing display tablet on my Mac exclusively. Although that's mostly because my Linux laptop only has one USB C port. Still, it's much easier to use on Mac and the companion app actually works on Mac.
This is the same issue for, I have a huion drawing tablet, Wayland has many limitations plus, my pen's mouse right click just doesn't work in Wayland, whereas Xorg works just fine.
Xorg should be there as a legacy option in my opinion.
(sits next to Nicco and has Soda-pop and popcorn giggling in KDE)
From 700 bucks to 1000 bucks in 5 months. Damn, that artificial inflation dragging people out of their life.
Or, hear me out, I have more staff compared to before
Or that.@@niccoloveslinux
I am really wondering, why the names are X11 and Wayland?? Like, nothing of these names is related in any way?
wayland is totally broken with nvidia for me, i will in feature switch to amd but idk when
I'd love to switch over to Wayland, but other proprietary software like Zoom is another aspect that's holding things back.
Zoom sort of works fine on X11 right now. Zoom on Wayland is sort of supported but it has severe preformance degradation compared to X11 to the point where your entire machine becomes unuseable.
None of this is the fault of Wayland, KDE or GNOME devs, and is a total fuck up by Zoom. But many companies and its users use software like Zoom, its part of a daily workflow and removing X11 will break for these users.
Wanted to bring an alternate perspective here as a Linux user who's been daily driving Linux for close to two decades now.
I'm less concerned with GNOME as it's been very solid on Wayland in my experience. Plasma is a different story though. Panels flying all over the place, disappearing elements or other bug outs out still happens to me often on the latest version. Hopefully KDE can get these issues sorted before dropping support.
KDE is definitely improving. Two weeks ago flatpak applications like LibreOffice had VERY blurry font rendering. Like if fonts were bitmaps and were scaled. Now it works fine. I was so surprised, I checked if I'm in wayland, as I thought I chose Plasma(X11) by mistake.
fk Nvidia. They don't support GBM on 390, 470 driver.
It's gonna be painful as hell... It won't be smooth. Brace yourselves my mates. It ain't gonna be fun...
IMO kwin is not stable. I just left my computer for like 5-10min (only chrome with 1 tab was open) and when I come back kwin had crashed like 5 times, I could not send the bug report thing because it kept crashing. Usually works like this until I reboot my machine, some rare days I have to reboot twice.
K WIN LETS GO
My opinion is that all distros should always include a minimal but functional X11 environment (mainly Xfce or openbox) by default as an option to be selected in display manager and KDE and GNOME should just drop X11. If a user needs the X11 and XWayland does not do it then he can just select the alternative desktop environment
But they do not have the resources to support X11 on all those DE, window managers, and apps. This is an unrealistic expectation.
Far better to start the migration and avoiding Wayland is a dead end.
Finally
I wouldn't prefer Wayland to be the default, as I find the modularity and flexibility of X11 to be extremely valuable (despite its security implications). For instance, in an X11 session, I can kill the window manager process and start a new one, and my windows will still be there. This is just one example. X11 seems to be much more flexible and hackable compared to Wayland. Perhaps Wayland is better suited for users who simply want to boost FPS in their favorite game, while X11 is for those who appreciate a flexible/hackeable environment.
Actually while X11 is easier to modify on the fly on production than Wayland, X11 is actually less flexible in its code than Wayland. The main reason every devs, including the Xorg fondation, shifted to Wayland is that you cannot add more features to Xorg, either due to its size and spaghetti code nature, (even if the devs wanted, adding HDR would be a syphysian task) or by its architecture. (X11 server cannot manage natively several monitors so the current hack is having a single virtual monitor made of all the physical monitor. Which contraint things, like imposible a single shared refresh rate.)
Meanwhile Wayland allows everything X11 allows except network transparency (and protocoles like VNC file the gap for 99% of remote desktop use cases), plus adding new modern features. However you need to rewrite a lot of things to reimplement all the X11 features other than network transparency.
But this is the core of why EVERY devs involved in desktop rendering* shifted to working on Wayland. Not the increased security but the fact that X11 reached and evolutionary dead end due to being a mammoth made of spaghetti code.
*Not to confuse with application devs.
The latency when using wayland is just unbearable for my use case, and i will refuse to switch until they address this.
I have a Nvidia card so its not an easy state to be in, have app startup stutter on X11 or sub-par experience on Wayland. Damned if I do, Damned if I dont. So I generally use Windows on my Nvidia machines till Nvidia finally get their drivers in order
Driver 545 should improve the Wayland experience quite a bit
@@BrainStormzFTC Driver 545 is for newer cards!
@@BrainStormzFTC And you need X and Wayland to make Wayland work! Solo Wayland doesn't work on Nvidia!
Wayland is has a potential to be good graphical server which has a good alternative from X11.
it's literately developed by X11 maintainers so it is the future, not an alternative but a replacement.
Good, now that NVIDIA is taking Wayland support more seriously with the new beta driver, we can finally let X11 die already. It's antiquated beyond belief. Plenty of things don't work, especially for games and multimedia, like VRR/FreeSync and HDR support, and the VRR support that does exist (through config tweaks) is extremely hacky at best. Wayland works with fractional scaling pretty well, and I'd argue it's far less crappy than how Windows handles it (where you have to adjust compatibility settings on a per-game basis because most games don't handle high DPIs correctly).
Maybe now that this progress is being made, we might be able to see HDR support on SteamOS 3's desktop mode (and as a result, the system defaulting to Plasma 6's Wayland mode), and we might see a proper desktop release (outside the Deck) now that NVIDIA cards are improving their Linux support. I hate using the Deck's desktop mode or HoloISO in desktop mode because it defaults to X11 which has no VRR/FreeSync or HDR support. There's some software (like Presonus Studio One) that is being released on Linux with only Wayland support, and companies like Adobe have next to no excuses to not support Linux now (color management being one of the big ones I saw people cite) outside of ringing Creative Cloud subscribers for money that they do next to nothing with. Firefox can also go about supporting HDR video now, as they were the odd one out on Windows in terms of not supporting it.
XWayland being supported still is generally good enough for legacy software. And with how Gamescope actually makes older games far less painful to run compared to Windows, and we might be in for some interesting times.
More than 10 years out there and still works like merda. I'll stick to x11.
tone down the volume and frequency of those mouse lick sound effects, this is literally unwatchable
Gnome must be running out of user-interface features to remove. Now it's looking at what underlying system components can be removed. What we really need them to do is look at what devs can be removed.
If you want x11 so bad then contribute and clean its spaghetti code up. Pit up or shut up and accept Wayland
Time to get an AMD gfx-card and trash the green one
Yo lo unico que se llevo desee la 10.04 usando UBuntu con X11 y aunque he tenido problemas han sido menores que usando wayland, de hecho he tenido que bloquearlo porque literalmente no podia acceder a mi ububtu 22.04 ya que la pantalla se quedaba en negro antes de llegar al logueo para entrar al escritorio. Lo que oigo mucho es que los gráficos es que el HDR que los juegos , a mi eso no me interesa me interesa un sistema que no me obligue a parar mi pc a lo bruto porque al señor entiendase wayland le da oor no arrancar cada vez que quiero usar mi pc. Y ojo yo uso intel no Nvidia... Hasta wue wayland que lleva en fase incial desee 2008 no pueda ser compatible con miles de programas aun hoy usados incluido obs que va como el culo ya sea x11 o wayland mejor me quedo en X11, si es que hay problemas hasta para ver videos . Wayland sera el futruro pero quiero un futuro seguro y wayland no me lo da.
X11 is so buggy... i switched to wayland, i play VR, draw in krita and play games... on KDE i don't have issues with the tablet with my workflow(thanks for thinking of us artists).
X11 had issues with VRR, got temporary IPS burn in with some apps that didn't play nice with VRR, display flickering and on and on. switched to wayland last week and found out that VR actually works.
X11 is too unstable to use, even if it's better, i am on a full AMD system so that may be it
If Mutter goes Wayland only, then desktops could use Muffin, which is Cinnamon's fork of Mutter. Hopefully, by then, it will be less laggy and resource intensive than it is now.
(Also, Elementary has its own WM named Gala)
Cinnamon is migrating to Wayland, try to keep up
Heads up the X11 developers are dropping support for X11.
So is KDE and Fedora and unless the X11 fanbois start coding Arch, Debian, XFCE, Cinnamon, etc arenot far behind.
Wake up and use Wayland or start coding.
NOME is stinky KDE 4 the win
I have to say nice editing and all, but these memes often make no sense even for themselves, or in the video. Maybe a bit less?
Honestly gnome is too slow for any gpus that don't get wayland/dri3 support.
Like the HD 7350.
Thank god I can just install Windows 11 and not bother with this bs
So, ready or not, here come the "upgrades". I still can't daily drive Wayland either and I've been using KDE for 25-ish years and I don't have Nvidia hardware. I just hope they fix all the issues before I'm forced to use Wayland as a daily driver because I'm not switching from KDE. Anyone that suggests GNOME or another feature-lacking WM better kiss their teeth goodbye.
Get on them knees for Wayland you aggressive dork
First