+fungo I'm not sure he can transform back an forth? I haven't attacked him at Oedon Chapel, but if you attack him when you first encounter him, he'll stay a beast. I think the reason he's different may be that he was a Hunter, and that Hunters who become beasts (or as the game overall suggest, are beast already because they are hunters) retain most of their faculties, and are able to speak. I can't remember if Gascoigne talks after he transforms, but even if he doesn't, he's become pretty beastly anyway, even before he becomes the wolf.
He may be a special sort of beast but he is indeed a beast (a Darkbeast) and he speaks. I was just pointing out that one error from the video. Great content as always, Fungo.
+oplu45 If you die to him and come back, he'll be human and transforms immediately upon approach. And Gascoigne does kinda talk in death... kinda say's 'forgive me'
@@kill3rbyysight In a game where everything is so hostile, a friendly face is a welcome sight. Simon likely echoes the player's sympathy for Ludwig, creating a bond between character and player. Then Simon's obvious despair at the moment of his death further convinces most players to side with him. "It just isn't fair." He also tasks the player with carrying on in his stead. We were going to do that anyway, but now he's given us a reason. A motivation to see it through: For the sake of a fallen comrade. Sympathy for Brador comes only from a sense of meta appreciation. Career invaders in the Souls series can understand, in a detached way, that they are serving a function of the game much like Brador is fulfilling what he sees as his duty. Invaders have been empowered by the dev's to do what they are doing. The PvP is a game within the game that puts you in opposition to someone else. These kinds of games are meant to be won, and if there winner... it means there is also a loser. Poor sports on both sides might claim what the other does is wrong, but at the end of the day nobody actually died and no ones progress was genuinely stopped. Only hindered. The most an invader can do is cause someone to suffer a setback and if they can't endure one of those how the heck did they even get this far? In a sense, Brador represents this opposing viewpoint. The progressing player is not owed success. They must fight to earn it and emerge victorious.
i find it so interesting how simon’s dialogue is almost nearly identical when either he kills ludwig or when you do, but he sounds more solemn and grief stricken when he’s the one to do it. this games attention to detail is unreal.
I like to imagine all these old hunters being buddies. Like Gehrman and Maria or Ludwig and Laurence, hanging out together, hunting beasts together and shit.
+Dank Sloth For many of them they do. Based on Gehrman's dialogue while he's asleep outside the chapel in the hunter's dream he knew Willem and Laurence on a personal basis. I've read a theory that I kinda thought about before reading it and it states that Willem was the head of Byrgenworth (why he's called the provost) while Gehrman, Laurence, and possibly Micolash were teachers at the school. (I imagine Gehrman to be the more Indiana Jones type to Laurence's more religious studies.) After that it's pretty well assumed that Maria was Gehrman's favorite disciple, and more than likely Gehrman's Crush given the similarities with Maria and the doll, and that Ludwig was Laurence's. Also, higgsbison.tumblr.com/post/118076059115/djura-is-the-best-hoonter-this-is-not-up-for
Matt Campbell That's an interesting one. There are just so many theories about this game, I wish Miyazaki would just do one big interview where he reveals everything about this game so we would finally have some clarity on the situation lol
I thought the same thing man, I really wish we would've gotten a flashback cutscene to a group of hunters hunting together since it only makes sense for them to work together.
I mentioned that in the description and annotations. The Old Hunters are the Bergenwerth Hunters. I tried to fix my error, but I guess people don't read annotations likely do to being incompatible with the app.
It's kind of confusing but I think it's implied that The Hunters of Hunters originated in a foreign land, outside of Yharnam or The Healing Church. That implies that beast scourges have been going on throughout the world and for a lengthly bit of time. I'm even more confused as to how The Hunters Nightmare interacts with The Hunters of Hunters. Ok, so you're a hunter right? You become blood addled and go mad, the process right before turning into a beast. Eileen or another Hoonter of hoonters slays you before this happens. You die and awake in The Hunters Nightmare?
+Garl Vinland possibly, but my theory is that the hunters of hunters sin was that they sometimes killed hunters who weren't addled with blood, Henryk for example went for you instead of Eileen first, hinting that he was trying to avenge his partner, Father Gascoigne
Baw 78 It was very fitting, I'm sad that there wasn't an actual ost there. Despite it not being From Software's style, I feel that those lines would've felt more meaningful being one of the few parts outside of a boss that had a theme play...
Those lines... those lines, they were one of the most resonating lines for me in Bloodborne. I picked the game up in 2020 when I was going through a really tough time and when those lines came up, I just can’t help but feel a little because I’ve been there. Life was not so nice to me during that time and it took me a full year to recover from what I went through. Hopefully, I’m doing better now.
Simon was an early Healing Church hunter. The Hunters who raided the Fishing Hamlet were the Original Hunters, including Gehrman and his apprentice Maria, along with the other Byrgenwerth scholars like Lawrence. This was before the skism we see after the Vicar Amelia boss fight.
Just a reminder: Ludwig is NOT the only beast still able to speak. The Abhorrent Beast / Forest Beggar can also speak, even when in his beast form. The impression I've always had is that the beast-like transformations and beast-like behavior are not necessarily one and the same -- that the old blood causes transformations, but the insanity resulted from the recipients being unprepared, both for the mental strain caused by their transforming, and from the altered, unfamiliar perspectives that a completely different body with a completely different set of sensory organs (if not a completely altered state of consciousness altogether) would give them. The Abhorrent Beast, I would wager, retained some of his mind as he did because he was already fairly psychotic to begin with. Ludwig, in contrast, had a "guiding light" to keep him focused. He did transform, but he kept his mind clear and focused, and his humanity persisted. What I would wager happened instead was that, despite being mentally sound, his colleagues were greatly unnerved by it and eventually regarded him as "a beast-possessed degenerate", as his "detractors made eminently clear" until Ludwig started to have doubts of his own. At this point, he may have doubted, not just himself, but the sincerity of his "guiding moonlight", possibly causing him to discard it. And without focus -- without direction -- that was when he did succumb, and only woke back up -- only realized his doubts were misplaced, far too late. He reminds me a lot of Alucard from Hellsing and the viking warrior from Samurai Jack, both of whom are corrupted, yearn for death, but won't consider it a "clean" death unless they go down fighting. I think that's why Ludwig continues to fight you after finding his "guiding moonlight" too: Because the only hope he has left in life is to die like a true warrior. As for Simon. . . You said it in the beginning: He was a scout -- a hunter whose job was to search for early signs of corruption. So it'd be more accurate to say that he is only one of the first OFFICIAL hunters, old enough to have known all of the pre-hunters who took part in the raid, but not so much to have actually been among them.
Imagine a big, extensive cutscene with Gehrman, Maria, Laurence and other hunters slaying Kos. EPIC I feel like there should've been at least a few more cutscenes put into the game, it would add so much value to the story and the atmosphere.
Considering it was done out of no self control and addiction, it would show the corruption of the hunters. But- Kos was actually innocent and her child was too.. So no, I don't want to see it.
There are a webtoon comic telling the story of Maria, with an arc of the hunters fighting Orphan of Kos, look it up, its not an FMV but it might close to what you want, the title is Lady Maria and the Old Hunters
Its not a lie to say that his church hunters were honorable because the radiant sword hunter badge description reads. One of the badges crafted by the Healing Church. The radiant sword indicates the heirs to the will of Ludwig. These hunters, also known as Holy Blades, are what remains of an ancient line of heroes that date back to a very early age of honor and chivalry. I also don't think he was intentionally guarding the bridge or he was corrupted by his sword. The sword is the only instance of bringing someone back from being a feral beast, if anything that sword was his salvation.
TheSwordsman100 Yeah but that description implies honor and chivalry is something current hunters don’t have anymore, it could have even died with Ludwig. Also Brador says the sword was Ludwig’s undoing.
@@soulreaverable that's just because ludwig followed it blindly, using it to slaughter beasts, he was captivated by the sword for sure but his naive ignorance was his undoing. Also if you think about it, Simon is/was a church hunter, and he seems pretty noble in his actions, so technically not a lie lmao.
@@soulreaverable Ludwig fully admits to never wishing to know what the sword actually was. He used it's power to pursue his own goals, which was his undoing.
14:30 I think what Simon was trying to say here is that the new hunters shouldn't have to bear the curse of *his* and the other first hunters actions and he's expressing his immense guilt for his involvement in the suffering it has caused. Guilt is a very strong and awful feeling, and I think it's his guilt for inadvertently aiding in the creation of this curse that fuels him to help you uncover the secrets of the Hunter's Nightmare, hoping that by telling/showing someone the ugly truth, it will end the curse somehow. That's how I interpret it anyway.
zane433 I think the coolest hunter is Gherman, he created the hunter technique. His weapon is super cool and grim reaper like, judging by his quick step movements, his instant parry gun and his scythe I believe he would execute his enemy’s. The coolest and most badass
I love that you picked up on the word brazen. Reminds me of how I let you know about the "well" word with Maria. Great work again Fungo, your work is really impressive. Loving your channel.
I thought that the Fishing Hamlet was done by Byrgenwerth, not the Healing Church? Byrgenwerth existed before the Healing Church, so perhaps Simon was referring to the original Byrgenwerth scholars?
+Nathan Magnuson Good point. It was Laurence and the Bygenwerth gang (good band name) that did it before the Healing Church was erected. Forefathers meaning the people who preceded the Healing Church. Damn, now I figured it out.
***** Although, I'm not sure how long the gap is between Laurence and the Byrgenwerth Gang's ransacking of the Hamlet and the creation of the Church, so forefathers may still be a strange choice of words.
+Nathan Magnuson He could be referring to the "forefathers" of the Healing Church. In that case, that wordage is perfectly fine. I added an annotation in the video.
+fungo The hamlet was raided by Gehrman and Maria, not Ludwig and Simon. Don't forget that there were 2 distinct segment of hunters - The Byrgenwerth Hunters and the Church Hunters. The Byrgenwerth Hunters were lead by Gerhman, and refers to hunters either before Lawrence broke away from Willem, or maybe even after. It was not until the razing of Old Yharnam where the purging of beast by discretion was no longer needed, leading to the dismissal of Gehrman's hunters, and the founding of the Church Hunters lead by Ludwig who took a heavy handed approach instead of discretion. That was the cause of Gehrman's loneliness and his eventual audience with the Moon Presence
You know, Ive just realized. The way Simon sounds. His dialogue. Could he related to Eileen the Crow? "Ive made a butch of things"(Simon) "Ive made a bit of a blunder" (Eileen). Anyone else notice this?
I have a strong suspicion that Ludwig is actually combined with another human who ended up turning into a beast. The first phase is when you kill that part and that's when Ludwig takes over. That would make more sense to me when it comes to why only his head didn't die at the end of the fight. (and the healing church was REALLY into some weird necromancy with combining bodies)
I assumed it was because he does have forefathers that were hunters, such as Gehrman and others. He's just one of the first healing church hunters. It's even further implied that it was pre-healing church hunters that killed Kos when you think about how Gehrman reacts to the orphan dying, and is finally able to sleep peacefully, implying he had guilt about what had happened.
Simon was one of the first healing church hunters but the event that transpired in the hamlet took place during the prime of byrgenwerth, which i think was some time before the healing church was established.
I wanted to pose a question. I've been looking everywhere for information on this and there's no videos or wiki information on it, but I think it's very possible that Brador killed Laurence. Maybe during the scourge of old yharnam, who knows. But his set on the actual npc has a broken antler, As does Laurence the first vicar. Also he is known as a church assassin and must have been an amazing hunter to be specifically chosen as a hunter of hunters to protect the secrets of fishing hamlet. Also among the old hunters his unnamed "compatriot" had to have been a cleric, and it would have been a big deal for them to then hide him away in a cell. My last argument, though not very strong is that his skull in the grand cathedral could very well have been stripped of the scalp, there are no antlers, feathers, fur, or other parts of the body. Not to mention the brutal split in the skull would line up pretty closely with where the hood and antlers meet the front opening for the face of the set.
I'm sure people already mentioned this, but Simon was talking about the Byrgenwerth scholars and their hunters, as they were the ones, who ransacked the Fishing Hamlet, not the (back then nonexistent) Church and it was only the curse that hit the Church hunters, who were related to Byrgenwerth scholars in some way. But going more into this line of thinking, I have an interesting thought, considering the familial bounds of blood in this curse of blood and the things surrounding the Nightmare and Simon. In my opinion, Simon is Laurence's son. Now before you say there is no indication to it, yes there is actually. He is counted as one of the first Church hunters, meaning he was in Laurence's inner circle and is also in the Nightmare with his mind not completely gone, so right now, we can make a connection between him and Byrgenwerth, as the Nightmare curse hits those associated with Byrgenwerth, or their descendants. But by this logic, he could be just any ex Byrgenwerth student, who..
...sided with Laurence during the split in Byrgenwerth and joined him on his campaign to claim the power of Yharnam City. But what I'll say next sheds more light to this. Simon is a man of secrets. By his harrowed garb and bowblade, he's described as 'one of the first hunters' and as a sort of spy, meaning he was from the first generation of hunters and knew all the secrets of the Healing Church. Why is this so important? Because there's someone almost identical to him, except for one big difference. Ludwig. Ludwig is in the Nightmare, thus associated with Byrgenwerth and is described as the 'very first Healing Church hunter' meaning that this is not just a title, like, say, 'head hunter' but also to signify him being the first ever to become the Church's hunter. Now, so far so good, but if you know Ludwig, you know one thing: He didn't know the secrets. He, the very first hunter, was unaware of the secrets the Healing Church held, even though Laurence was most likely a close...
+darklord884 ...friend of his. He even tells you how he was never interested in secrets and held the delusion that his hunters could be the honorable protectors of Yharnam, showing you he had NO IDEA what the Healing Church's true agenda was. Even Simon describes him as a 'poor brute' to say he was strong, but lacking in intelligence and insight. Simon, however, he knew all about the secrets of the Church, even the Nightmare, seemingly, even before he met the player character and only decided to slow down on his way to the Hamlet, to help out someone he saw as sane in spirit, but equally lost in the dark. And specifically, there are two places Simon seemingly never visits, nor makes mention of. He appears at the starting area, at the shortcut, the research hall, tells you about Maria and finally, you meet him dying in the hut of the lighthouse. Which place does he never visit, nor makes mentions of? Why the place where Laurence is, where his human skull is and Laurence is the...
+darklord884 ...person he never mentions. As if ashamed of what his father has become. Consider that he tells you every other dirty little secret of the Healing Church, but omits the fact that Laurence had a hand in it, or that Laurence is still here in his burning beast form. Again, as if he's so ashamed of what Laurence, his father has become, that he doesn't want to visit his place or tell you about it. And while he's dying, he again mentions that "our forefathers sinned." Now, forefathers could just mean the Byrgenwerth scholars, a group of whom founded the Healing Church. But given that the curse of the Fishing Hamlet is a blood curse and it hits the scholars and their children through the generations, the word 'foreFATHERS' obviously means more than just 'those, who came before' and obviously implies a parental connection, given how Simon is never associated with Byrgenwerth personally and is sane, so it suggest he wasn't overcome by bloodlust. Which means he has a familial...
+darklord884 ...connection to someone at the very peak of the Healing Church, who knows every secret, even above Ludwig. This could either be Laurence or maybe Amelia, but to me, the evidence suggests more to Laurence. But this is just a theory, so take your pick. Why is he in the Nightmare, then? Well, he obviously had to die in the real world to end up in the Nightmare, as entry into it doesn't seem to be something you voluntarily do. Even the Good Hunter has to be snatched by the Amygdala against his or her will to enter the Nightmare. Why Simon tells you who's responsible in his dying word. It's Brador. Most likely after Laurence turned into a beast and was subsequently killed by the Church hunters, Simon most likely pried into the secrets of the Church himself and gained the information that he tells you on your journey through the Nightmare. However, his findings also attracted the attention of Brador, the, by then most likely, mad church assassin, who killed him, not...
+darklord884 ...wanting the secrets to be found out by anyone. Most likely under the next vicar's orders, who saw little problem with having Simon, son of the 'First Cleric Beast' killed. Afterwards, Brador most likely also perished and ended up in the nightmare alongside Simon, given that he's sitting in a cell in the Nightmare and one of his cloak's antlers is broken. After that, he simply sought out Simon and sent one of his parallel Bradors after him. Oh, yes, in ms theory, he doesn't invade you personally, but simply summons alternate versions of himself from other worlds to fight you, given that he puts up no fight when you confront him in his cell and he looks very different to the 'Bradors' you fight in other places. Given that his name sounds strangely like 'brother' and is spelled closely to the german 'bruder' meaning 'brother' it might also suggests some other familial bonds, but I personally doubt it. It might be because he personally killed his compatriot assassins,..
The antler is broken while he's in his cell because he invades while younger for some reason. You can see this in how his beard is long and gray in the cell, and short and black while he invades.
You misunderstood what Simon meant by “forefathers.” The people who experimented on the fishing hamlet were the students from Byrgenwerth, who would go on to found the Healing Church. The hunters would only be established after the Healing Church began dispensing the old blood to Yharnam, which started the plague of beasts.
Hey Fungo, the reason that Brador's hat's antler is broken on his body form is because he's actually very old now. The version of him that invades us is actually much younger and his equipment reflects this. Might also be why he dies in one hit when he attack him in his cell.
+Alvin Rinaldo There's rumors going around that he is. He actually wears the same headgear as Simon so there's talk that he is/was a part of the same group. There's another rumor that he was the Izzy character who created a lot of the forbidden beast tools/weapons. more than likely though, and given his dialogue, he was tortured against his will and his fortitude and insight probably kept him able to retain his consciousness during beast mode as well as change back and forth.
@@mattcampbell1660 simon actually wears these beggar like clothes because the hunters were like spies (sorry if i mistook the word) to find any signal of infection much like the abyss wartchers and the abyss
Just a thought but imagine the reason Ludwig is guarding the church as a way to redeem himself in a way to make up for his sins, especially when he found the moonlight blade which corrupted him and led him astray.
+xPooogle515 wrong. there is no true one. thats the way the souls/borne games are intended to be. even miyazaki has said he changes his own theories on "who's", "why's", and "what's" of his stories. okay, buddy?
N30n_g0LD There are certain MYSTERIES that people can interpret differently but Bloodborne and the Souls series is not a "make up your own explanation" franchise at all, lol. And that's called retcon, dude. It's not the same thing.
N30n_g0LD Not really? There's a difference between having interpretations of specific details and "the souls games letting you make up your own story". They have specific stories.
I believe the " forefathers" are the healing church/mensis/brygenwerth because the hunters department's where created later once the scourge began, so the hunters are the ones carrying the burden that the scholars made...idk my opinion.
I think clerics become the worst beasts because of how much old blood they partake in and because of how clounge to it they become. Ludwig being a cleric hunter would definitely have ended in this same fate but the moonlight greatsword’s “guidance” kept him human for much longer than most other clerics. He clung to it more and more and when he “lost” it/it’s guidance he became a beast like the others. The worst of them all
6:13 "Then a *beast-possessed degenerate* was I, as my *detractors* made eminently clear." FROMSOFTWARE MADE A CHARACTER BASED OFF DSP AND I JUST NOTICED IT.
Simon is one of the first healing church hunters, however there were groups of hunters prior to the healing church ones. Perhaps he is referring to the scholars of Bergenworth, or Laurence’s first group of hunters.
Great vid! Love all the bloodborne lore vids mucho! I think Simon is one of the first Healing Church hunters, which isn't the same as the Byrgenwerth scholars, the ones who violated the hamlet, so dem cats are the "forefathers" he's referring to. Probably a few years late, but hey, if I watch it today, it's new to me
***** Oh, wasn't looking at the screen, also has anyone took a closer look at the piles of armour, and shields down in Chalice town, what kind are they, and why does hardly anything down there wear it?
Peyton Spain hey I know this comment is two years old and you probably already got your answer or just dont care. But I believe the armor is from past explorations of the dungeons. So before Laurence or any of the scholars even set foot in them. Possibly even before Byrgenwerth was created
From my understanding, Simon was one of the first healing church hunters, but the fishing hamlet's atrocity was committed by either the byrgenwyrth scholars, or the original workshop hunters, slightly predating the foundation of the healing church.
[He is dead.]
The absolute _best_ subtitle ever
Maybe [insert dying sfx here] could have worked too
Also very early in King's Field (1994)
The Abhorrent beast (Beggar) can speak when he's in beast form as well.
+rhix Ah, yes that's true. But he can also transform from human to beast back to human. He's something else.
+fungo I'm not sure he can transform back an forth? I haven't attacked him at Oedon Chapel, but if you attack him when you first encounter him, he'll stay a beast. I think the reason he's different may be that he was a Hunter, and that Hunters who become beasts (or as the game overall suggest, are beast already because they are hunters) retain most of their faculties, and are able to speak.
I can't remember if Gascoigne talks after he transforms, but even if he doesn't, he's become pretty beastly anyway, even before he becomes the wolf.
He may be a special sort of beast but he is indeed a beast (a Darkbeast) and he speaks. I was just pointing out that one error from the video. Great content as always, Fungo.
+oplu45 If you die to him and come back, he'll be human and transforms immediately upon approach. And Gascoigne does kinda talk in death... kinda say's 'forgive me'
rhix if you want an interesting perspective on what he is look up redgraves video on darkbeasts, its really interesting
Avenging Simon was one of the most righteous thing I did in the game, I don't give a shit what Brador said before I killed him.
That's the spirit! 👏🏿👏🏿
wat got u so attached with Simon ?
@@kill3rbyysight In a game where everything is so hostile, a friendly face is a welcome sight. Simon likely echoes the player's sympathy for Ludwig, creating a bond between character and player. Then Simon's obvious despair at the moment of his death further convinces most players to side with him. "It just isn't fair."
He also tasks the player with carrying on in his stead. We were going to do that anyway, but now he's given us a reason. A motivation to see it through: For the sake of a fallen comrade.
Sympathy for Brador comes only from a sense of meta appreciation. Career invaders in the Souls series can understand, in a detached way, that they are serving a function of the game much like Brador is fulfilling what he sees as his duty. Invaders have been empowered by the dev's to do what they are doing. The PvP is a game within the game that puts you in opposition to someone else. These kinds of games are meant to be won, and if there winner... it means there is also a loser.
Poor sports on both sides might claim what the other does is wrong, but at the end of the day nobody actually died and no ones progress was genuinely stopped. Only hindered. The most an invader can do is cause someone to suffer a setback and if they can't endure one of those how the heck did they even get this far? In a sense, Brador represents this opposing viewpoint. The progressing player is not owed success. They must fight to earn it and emerge victorious.
i find it so interesting how simon’s dialogue is almost nearly identical when either he kills ludwig or when you do, but he sounds more solemn and grief stricken when he’s the one to do it. this games attention to detail is unreal.
i didn't kill ludwig head nor did Simon.. his head was alive even wen i was done with whole DLC
They laughed at my bow, I laughed at there beastly graves
I'm also surprised nobody noticed I only had 3 fingers on one hand
+Simon_The_Harrowed All of your fingers are there, maybe take that sight blocking headpiece off so you can see shit.
+Mukz725 Some without eyes can see from the inside.
*Their
Hate to break it to you, he doesnt exactly have a happy ending either. No one does in bloodborne apparently.
"he then proceeds to nay for a while" lmao silly ludwig
I like to imagine all these old hunters being buddies. Like Gehrman and Maria or Ludwig and Laurence, hanging out together, hunting beasts together and shit.
almost like a witcher 3 vibe with geralt and that like other European witcher
+Dank Sloth For many of them they do. Based on Gehrman's dialogue while he's asleep outside the chapel in the hunter's dream he knew Willem and Laurence on a personal basis.
I've read a theory that I kinda thought about before reading it and it states that Willem was the head of Byrgenworth (why he's called the provost) while Gehrman, Laurence, and possibly Micolash were teachers at the school. (I imagine Gehrman to be the more Indiana Jones type to Laurence's more religious studies.) After that it's pretty well assumed that Maria was Gehrman's favorite disciple, and more than likely Gehrman's Crush given the similarities with Maria and the doll, and that Ludwig was Laurence's.
Also, higgsbison.tumblr.com/post/118076059115/djura-is-the-best-hoonter-this-is-not-up-for
Matt Campbell That's an interesting one. There are just so many theories about this game, I wish Miyazaki would just do one big interview where he reveals everything about this game so we would finally have some clarity on the situation lol
You mean monster hunter: bloodborne
I thought the same thing man, I really wish we would've gotten a flashback cutscene to a group of hunters hunting together since it only makes sense for them to work together.
Also note: Healing church hunters came *AFTER* The Old hunters. Around the time of The Old Yharnam scourge.
I mentioned that in the description and annotations. The Old Hunters are the Bergenwerth Hunters. I tried to fix my error, but I guess people don't read annotations likely do to being incompatible with the app.
Oh, my bad then
my question is when the hunters of hunters were established?
It's kind of confusing but I think it's implied that The Hunters of Hunters originated in a foreign land, outside of Yharnam or The Healing Church. That implies that beast scourges have been going on throughout the world and for a lengthly bit of time.
I'm even more confused as to how The Hunters Nightmare interacts with The Hunters of Hunters. Ok, so you're a hunter right? You become blood addled and go mad, the process right before turning into a beast. Eileen or another Hoonter of hoonters slays you before this happens. You die and awake in The Hunters Nightmare?
+Garl Vinland possibly, but my theory is that the hunters of hunters sin was that they sometimes killed hunters who weren't addled with blood, Henryk for example went for you instead of Eileen first, hinting that he was trying to avenge his partner, Father Gascoigne
Simons death always gets me on the feels.
"It just isn't fare..."
it was completely fare .. he had Bardur room key all da time & still kept on fighting invasions 🧠
“Even in the darkest of nights I see moonlight.” I love this games dialogue
ah the gherman music in simon's death scene is so epic... good choice
Agreed.
yah that was touching made me feel so bad for simon.
after that i killed brador with simons bowblade. arrow to the head to avenge simon.
Brador is an incompetent assassin. Killed him Everytime 1st try with church pick
Baw 78
It was very fitting, I'm sad that there wasn't an actual ost there.
Despite it not being From Software's style, I feel that those lines would've felt more meaningful being one of the few parts outside of a boss that had a theme play...
It is also interesting that Simon had the key to Bradors cell. He probably knew who Brador was yet he decided not to kill him.
11:30 "It isn't fair.. it just isn't fair..."
It gets me everytime. 😔
Those lines... those lines, they were one of the most resonating lines for me in Bloodborne. I picked the game up in 2020 when I was going through a really tough time and when those lines came up, I just can’t help but feel a little because I’ve been there. Life was not so nice to me during that time and it took me a full year to recover from what I went through. Hopefully, I’m doing better now.
@@FayeLawnKrack3d I hope you're doing great, fellow hunter. I wish you all the happiness.
Simon is my favourite character in this game. I was genuinely devostated when he died.
wow
Finally! A person who talks about a soulsborne game without sounding dead inside for thematical reasons!
paul Leger You're right, let's call it BloodSouls from now on.
I'll build the bridge, if you jump off it to test for depth
I've been avoiding bridges ever since Ashes of Ariandel. How about "The DarkBlood series"?
Uncaring Bastard I like that one we can be friends now or at least acquaintances
People need to prove their friendship with me after the numerous encounters with Patches the Hyena and one time Patches the Spider.
Simon was an early Healing Church hunter. The Hunters who raided the Fishing Hamlet were the Original Hunters, including Gehrman and his apprentice Maria, along with the other Byrgenwerth scholars like Lawrence. This was before the skism we see after the Vicar Amelia boss fight.
Is all the squads laurence, willem and maria am i right?
Simon is my favourite NPC from the entire souls series.
His voice acting is indeed great. I also like Seigward of Catarina as well
Someone hasn't met Benhart
Just a reminder: Ludwig is NOT the only beast still able to speak. The Abhorrent Beast / Forest Beggar can also speak, even when in his beast form.
The impression I've always had is that the beast-like transformations and beast-like behavior are not necessarily one and the same -- that the old blood causes transformations, but the insanity resulted from the recipients being unprepared, both for the mental strain caused by their transforming, and from the altered, unfamiliar perspectives that a completely different body with a completely different set of sensory organs (if not a completely altered state of consciousness altogether) would give them.
The Abhorrent Beast, I would wager, retained some of his mind as he did because he was already fairly psychotic to begin with. Ludwig, in contrast, had a "guiding light" to keep him focused. He did transform, but he kept his mind clear and focused, and his humanity persisted.
What I would wager happened instead was that, despite being mentally sound, his colleagues were greatly unnerved by it and eventually regarded him as "a beast-possessed degenerate", as his "detractors made eminently clear" until Ludwig started to have doubts of his own.
At this point, he may have doubted, not just himself, but the sincerity of his "guiding moonlight", possibly causing him to discard it. And without focus -- without direction -- that was when he did succumb, and only woke back up -- only realized his doubts were misplaced, far too late.
He reminds me a lot of Alucard from Hellsing and the viking warrior from Samurai Jack, both of whom are corrupted, yearn for death, but won't consider it a "clean" death unless they go down fighting. I think that's why Ludwig continues to fight you after finding his "guiding moonlight" too: Because the only hope he has left in life is to die like a true warrior.
As for Simon. . . You said it in the beginning: He was a scout -- a hunter whose job was to search for early signs of corruption. So it'd be more accurate to say that he is only one of the first OFFICIAL hunters, old enough to have known all of the pre-hunters who took part in the raid, but not so much to have actually been among them.
Imagine a big, extensive cutscene with Gehrman, Maria, Laurence and other hunters slaying Kos. EPIC
I feel like there should've been at least a few more cutscenes put into the game, it would add so much value to the story and the atmosphere.
That would be more heart wrenching than epic honestly.
Considering it was done out of no self control and addiction, it would show the corruption of the hunters. But- Kos was actually innocent and her child was too.. So no, I don't want to see it.
Kos washed up dead on the shore, the hunters didn’t kill her.
The hunters assisted in whatever testing the scholars were doing to Kos' body and the citizens of the hamlet
There are a webtoon comic telling the story of Maria, with an arc of the hunters fighting Orphan of Kos, look it up, its not an FMV but it might close to what you want, the title is Lady Maria and the Old Hunters
Its not a lie to say that his church hunters were honorable because the radiant sword hunter badge description reads.
One of the badges crafted by the Healing Church. The radiant sword indicates the heirs to the will of Ludwig. These hunters, also known as Holy Blades, are what remains of an ancient line of heroes that date back to a very early age of honor and chivalry.
I also don't think he was intentionally guarding the bridge or he was corrupted by his sword. The sword is the only instance of bringing someone back from being a feral beast, if anything that sword was his salvation.
TheSwordsman100 Yeah but that description implies honor and chivalry is something current hunters don’t have anymore, it could have even died with Ludwig. Also Brador says the sword was Ludwig’s undoing.
@@soulreaverable that's just because ludwig followed it blindly, using it to slaughter beasts, he was captivated by the sword for sure but his naive ignorance was his undoing.
Also if you think about it, Simon is/was a church hunter, and he seems pretty noble in his actions, so technically not a lie lmao.
@@soulreaverable Ludwig fully admits to never wishing to know what the sword actually was. He used it's power to pursue his own goals, which was his undoing.
And don’t forget the Executioners, greatest of all servants of the Healing Church!
14:30 I think what Simon was trying to say here is that the new hunters shouldn't have to bear the curse of *his* and the other first hunters actions and he's expressing his immense guilt for his involvement in the suffering it has caused. Guilt is a very strong and awful feeling, and I think it's his guilt for inadvertently aiding in the creation of this curse that fuels him to help you uncover the secrets of the Hunter's Nightmare, hoping that by telling/showing someone the ugly truth, it will end the curse somehow. That's how I interpret it anyway.
Simon is so cool
Mostly because of his complete badass of a weapon
Very satisfying avenging him by planting an arrow in brador's face.
zane433 literally saw Brador hurt himself I grinned so hard charged my amygdalas arm and one shot him lmfao!!
it's literally a fucking bow, what about the whirligig?
@@charliejones3272 because a bow can make a diference where a cahinsaw cannot... basically a ranged atack
zane433 I think the coolest hunter is Gherman, he created the hunter technique. His weapon is super cool and grim reaper like, judging by his quick step movements, his instant parry gun and his scythe I believe he would execute his enemy’s. The coolest and most badass
This game goes deep. Thanks for helping to explain some of the best story I've ever experienced in a Soulsborne game.
I love that you picked up on the word brazen. Reminds me of how I let you know about the "well" word with Maria. Great work again Fungo, your work is really impressive. Loving your channel.
+Slickaxer Thanks! I liked your comment back in that video. Made me realize how much they carefully plan each character's dialogues.
+fungo your absolutely right. Feels like nothing is on accident lol. I hadn't picked up on the brazen word. Thanks again for the great video
I thought that the Fishing Hamlet was done by Byrgenwerth, not the Healing Church?
Byrgenwerth existed before the Healing Church, so perhaps Simon was referring to the original Byrgenwerth scholars?
+Nathan Magnuson Good point. It was Laurence and the Bygenwerth gang (good band name) that did it before the Healing Church was erected. Forefathers meaning the people who preceded the Healing Church. Damn, now I figured it out.
***** Although, I'm not sure how long the gap is between Laurence and the Byrgenwerth Gang's ransacking of the Hamlet and the creation of the Church, so forefathers may still be a strange choice of words.
+Nathan Magnuson He could be referring to the "forefathers" of the Healing Church. In that case, that wordage is perfectly fine. I added an annotation in the video.
Ah, true.
+fungo
The hamlet was raided by Gehrman and Maria, not Ludwig and Simon. Don't forget that there were 2 distinct segment of hunters - The Byrgenwerth Hunters and the Church Hunters. The Byrgenwerth Hunters were lead by Gerhman, and refers to hunters either before Lawrence broke away from Willem, or maybe even after. It was not until the razing of Old Yharnam where the purging of beast by discretion was no longer needed, leading to the dismissal of Gehrman's hunters, and the founding of the Church Hunters lead by Ludwig who took a heavy handed approach instead of discretion. That was the cause of Gehrman's loneliness and his eventual audience with the Moon Presence
You know, Ive just realized. The way Simon sounds. His dialogue. Could he related to Eileen the Crow? "Ive made a butch of things"(Simon) "Ive made a bit of a blunder" (Eileen). Anyone else notice this?
I have a strong suspicion that Ludwig is actually combined with another human who ended up turning into a beast. The first phase is when you kill that part and that's when Ludwig takes over. That would make more sense to me when it comes to why only his head didn't die at the end of the fight. (and the healing church was REALLY into some weird necromancy with combining bodies)
The Moonlight Sword in Bloodborne is the best looking version of them all.
Ludwig is Nightmare fuel
literally because he was like the first hunter lolol
Exotic Butters Gherman Was The First Hunter But Of The Church Ludwig And Laurence Were The First Hunter's Of The Healing Church
yup brador is the embodiment of the invading community
seems fromsoft agrees
Ludwig isn't the only beast to talk... Suspicious Beggar talks while in his beast form
I was about to say that
Simon worked for the Church. The events of the death of Kos takes place before the Healing Church began so Simon wasn't in the picture yet.
you can also attack Ludwig's head and get his sword
Simon is hands down my favorite Bloodborne character
14:52 Give this guy an Oscar award.
"Go on ahead," he says while standing next to A HEAD. Lol!
Simon's VA is so incredibly satisfying to listen to
Lady maria was originally gonna have more dialogue but it was scrapped and left for code raiders to undig
I assumed it was because he does have forefathers that were hunters, such as Gehrman and others. He's just one of the first healing church hunters. It's even further implied that it was pre-healing church hunters that killed Kos when you think about how Gehrman reacts to the orphan dying, and is finally able to sleep peacefully, implying he had guilt about what had happened.
Simon was one of the first healing church hunters but the event that transpired in the hamlet took place during the prime of byrgenwerth, which i think was some time before the healing church was established.
I wanted to pose a question. I've been looking everywhere for information on this and there's no videos or wiki information on it, but I think it's very possible that Brador killed Laurence. Maybe during the scourge of old yharnam, who knows. But his set on the actual npc has a broken antler, As does Laurence the first vicar. Also he is known as a church assassin and must have been an amazing hunter to be specifically chosen as a hunter of hunters to protect the secrets of fishing hamlet. Also among the old hunters his unnamed "compatriot" had to have been a cleric, and it would have been a big deal for them to then hide him away in a cell. My last argument, though not very strong is that his skull in the grand cathedral could very well have been stripped of the scalp, there are no antlers, feathers, fur, or other parts of the body. Not to mention the brutal split in the skull would line up pretty closely with where the hood and antlers meet the front opening for the face of the set.
Ludwig is not the only beast who can speak still. Abhorrent beast speaks.
love how you played gerhmans theme at Simons death. That was amazing.
My Ludwig is still alive, peacefully sleeping. Simon skipped straight to the research hall and the fishing hamlet for me.
I'm sure people already mentioned this, but Simon was talking about the Byrgenwerth scholars and their hunters, as they were the ones, who ransacked the Fishing Hamlet, not the (back then nonexistent) Church and it was only the curse that hit the Church hunters, who were related to Byrgenwerth scholars in some way. But going more into this line of thinking, I have an interesting thought, considering the familial bounds of blood in this curse of blood and the things surrounding the Nightmare and Simon.
In my opinion, Simon is Laurence's son.
Now before you say there is no indication to it, yes there is actually. He is counted as one of the first Church hunters, meaning he was in Laurence's inner circle and is also in the Nightmare with his mind not completely gone, so right now, we can make a connection between him and Byrgenwerth, as the Nightmare curse hits those associated with Byrgenwerth, or their descendants. But by this logic, he could be just any ex Byrgenwerth student, who..
...sided with Laurence during the split in Byrgenwerth and joined him on his campaign to claim the power of Yharnam City.
But what I'll say next sheds more light to this. Simon is a man of secrets. By his harrowed garb and bowblade, he's described as 'one of the first hunters' and as a sort of spy, meaning he was from the first generation of hunters and knew all the secrets of the Healing Church. Why is this so important? Because there's someone almost identical to him, except for one big difference. Ludwig.
Ludwig is in the Nightmare, thus associated with Byrgenwerth and is described as the 'very first Healing Church hunter' meaning that this is not just a title, like, say, 'head hunter' but also to signify him being the first ever to become the Church's hunter. Now, so far so good, but if you know Ludwig, you know one thing: He didn't know the secrets. He, the very first hunter, was unaware of the secrets the Healing Church held, even though Laurence was most likely a close...
+darklord884 ...friend of his. He even tells you how he was never interested in secrets and held the delusion that his hunters could be the honorable protectors of Yharnam, showing you he had NO IDEA what the Healing Church's true agenda was. Even Simon describes him as a 'poor brute' to say he was strong, but lacking in intelligence and insight.
Simon, however, he knew all about the secrets of the Church, even the Nightmare, seemingly, even before he met the player character and only decided to slow down on his way to the Hamlet, to help out someone he saw as sane in spirit, but equally lost in the dark.
And specifically, there are two places Simon seemingly never visits, nor makes mention of. He appears at the starting area, at the shortcut, the research hall, tells you about Maria and finally, you meet him dying in the hut of the lighthouse. Which place does he never visit, nor makes mentions of? Why the place where Laurence is, where his human skull is and Laurence is the...
+darklord884 ...person he never mentions. As if ashamed of what his father has become. Consider that he tells you every other dirty little secret of the Healing Church, but omits the fact that Laurence had a hand in it, or that Laurence is still here in his burning beast form. Again, as if he's so ashamed of what Laurence, his father has become, that he doesn't want to visit his place or tell you about it.
And while he's dying, he again mentions that "our forefathers sinned." Now, forefathers could just mean the Byrgenwerth scholars, a group of whom founded the Healing Church. But given that the curse of the Fishing Hamlet is a blood curse and it hits the scholars and their children through the generations, the word 'foreFATHERS' obviously means more than just 'those, who came before' and obviously implies a parental connection, given how Simon is never associated with Byrgenwerth personally and is sane, so it suggest he wasn't overcome by bloodlust. Which means he has a familial...
+darklord884 ...connection to someone at the very peak of the Healing Church, who knows every secret, even above Ludwig. This could either be Laurence or maybe Amelia, but to me, the evidence suggests more to Laurence. But this is just a theory, so take your pick.
Why is he in the Nightmare, then? Well, he obviously had to die in the real world to end up in the Nightmare, as entry into it doesn't seem to be something you voluntarily do. Even the Good Hunter has to be snatched by the Amygdala against his or her will to enter the Nightmare.
Why Simon tells you who's responsible in his dying word. It's Brador. Most likely after Laurence turned into a beast and was subsequently killed by the Church hunters, Simon most likely pried into the secrets of the Church himself and gained the information that he tells you on your journey through the Nightmare. However, his findings also attracted the attention of Brador, the, by then most likely, mad church assassin, who killed him, not...
+darklord884 ...wanting the secrets to be found out by anyone. Most likely under the next vicar's orders, who saw little problem with having Simon, son of the 'First Cleric Beast' killed. Afterwards, Brador most likely also perished and ended up in the nightmare alongside Simon, given that he's sitting in a cell in the Nightmare and one of his cloak's antlers is broken.
After that, he simply sought out Simon and sent one of his parallel Bradors after him. Oh, yes, in ms theory, he doesn't invade you personally, but simply summons alternate versions of himself from other worlds to fight you, given that he puts up no fight when you confront him in his cell and he looks very different to the 'Bradors' you fight in other places.
Given that his name sounds strangely like 'brother' and is spelled closely to the german 'bruder' meaning 'brother' it might also suggests some other familial bonds, but I personally doubt it. It might be because he personally killed his compatriot assassins,..
he is from that era but he is not a forefather. that title goes to maria, gehrman and ludwig. they are the people who went to the hamlet.
The antler is broken while he's in his cell because he invades while younger for some reason. You can see this in how his beard is long and gray in the cell, and short and black while he invades.
Never played the game and probably never will, but I love this game because of your videos! Please keep the lore coming!
I'm watching this video in 2018 still intriqued by how deep the lore is in this game
I don't even play bodbourne but I just wanted to see ludwigs backstory
Clorox Bleach nobody plays bodbourne
Dahrandomvids stop these shenanigans
Davy Jones Locker NEVER
Dahrandomvids Haha
thats quite the profile picture you got there
Brador is the beast from over the garden wall
You misunderstood what Simon meant by “forefathers.” The people who experimented on the fishing hamlet were the students from Byrgenwerth, who would go on to found the Healing Church. The hunters would only be established after the Healing Church began dispensing the old blood to Yharnam, which started the plague of beasts.
I thought this video said "Summon Ludwig" and I was like "yes PLEASE"
Simon kicks ass. An interesting character and one of my favorites in the Soulsborne games.
Hey Fungo, the reason that Brador's hat's antler is broken on his body form is because he's actually very old now. The version of him that invades us is actually much younger and his equipment reflects this. Might also be why he dies in one hit when he attack him in his cell.
All these videos are really detailed and enjoyable. I'm surprised you don't have more views/subs. Of course 50k is nothing to scoff at.
When I think of Simon I think of "This is where hunters end up when drunk with blood."
Does anyone notice that the Abhhorent Beast head gear is near identical to Simon's, Could he be at some point, a Church Hunter as well?
+Alvin Rinaldo I think he was just a beggar. The Hunter outfit was made to look identical, but it makes a lot of sense.
+Alvin Rinaldo There's rumors going around that he is. He actually wears the same headgear as Simon so there's talk that he is/was a part of the same group. There's another rumor that he was the Izzy character who created a lot of the forbidden beast tools/weapons. more than likely though, and given his dialogue, he was tortured against his will and his fortitude and insight probably kept him able to retain his consciousness during beast mode as well as change back and forth.
@@mattcampbell1660 simon actually wears these beggar like clothes because the hunters were like spies (sorry if i mistook the word) to find any signal of infection much like the abyss wartchers and the abyss
This DLC was by far my favorite in all the Soulsborne series. Fuck it was so good and it still is amazing after beating it several times.
Has anyone ever told you that you sound like kermit the frog?
Kermit, the first hunter
Exactly like Kermit
Kermit the Assassin, Kermit the Harrowed, Kermit the Accursed
that would be great fromsoft needs people like you on there teams
No he doesnt
Just a thought but imagine the reason Ludwig is guarding the church as a way to redeem himself in a way to make up for his sins, especially when he found the moonlight blade which corrupted him and led him astray.
Hahaha I love that last bit nice touch good work
How do they speak when their mouths are closed? It really bothers me to look at their mouths not moving.
Been like that since Demon Souls.
+Bradley Arellano It's weird.
+John Doe From Software's attempts at lip movement are weirder, though.
Lol
+Tacityoshi1234 that and why put a bunch of money on moving lips when they could put that money towards improving other animations.
very interesting fan-theories as always. i love how souls/borne games let you make up your own story based on vague descriptions and dialogue.
It's less you making up your own story as it is pointing you towards the true one.
+xPooogle515
wrong.
there is no true one. thats the way the souls/borne games are intended to be. even miyazaki has said he changes his own theories on "who's", "why's", and "what's" of his stories.
okay, buddy?
N30n_g0LD
There are certain MYSTERIES that people can interpret differently but Bloodborne and the Souls series is not a "make up your own explanation" franchise at all, lol. And that's called retcon, dude. It's not the same thing.
+xPooogle515
well duh, silly. the theories only come out for the MYSTERIES.
your post was pointless, friend. lmao
N30n_g0LD Not really? There's a difference between having interpretations of specific details and "the souls games letting you make up your own story". They have specific stories.
Simon could be a student of one of the first Hunters and thus they would be his 'forefather'
Brador sounds voiced by same guy as patches. Listen to that laugh of his.
explains that itching urge to kill the bastard the moment he speaks
The church hunters weren't the forefathers, that was Lawrence and to some extent master willem
Ludwig’s voice actor must have had fun...
Thanks for the video. Great insight!
I believe the " forefathers" are the healing church/mensis/brygenwerth because the hunters department's where created later once the scourge began, so the hunters are the ones carrying the burden that the scholars made...idk my opinion.
I think clerics become the worst beasts because of how much old blood they partake in and because of how clounge to it they become. Ludwig being a cleric hunter would definitely have ended in this same fate but the moonlight greatsword’s “guidance” kept him human for much longer than most other clerics. He clung to it more and more and when he “lost” it/it’s guidance he became a beast like the others. The worst of them all
love your vídeos man.
They need to make an anime out of Bloodborne!
Have you watched Berserk?
Berserk is like Bloodborne and Dark Souls
Simon looks like an assassin’s creed character that accidentally signed up for the wrong game
Simon's death acting:
9/10. Needs more bowels releasing.
“Despised firearms” sounds like Simon would get along with fellow hunter Toucan Dan
6:13 "Then a *beast-possessed degenerate* was I, as my *detractors* made eminently clear."
FROMSOFTWARE MADE A CHARACTER BASED OFF DSP AND I JUST NOTICED IT.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you"-boneless nigga
great video keep up the good work
I wish we could of had a chance to save Simon. it just sounds sad when he dies. it would of been so rewarding to save him.
Give him a blood vial
Ah, good, now I know that even if I kill Brador, I can get his armor elsewhere...
Thanks Fungo :)
whoever made the subtitles turned Brador to "bruh door" and got me cackling for 5 minutes.
Simon is one of the first healing church hunters, however there were groups of hunters prior to the healing church ones. Perhaps he is referring to the scholars of Bergenworth, or Laurence’s first group of hunters.
I like the image of a hunter just chugging blood in a bar.
1:27 ROAR ZABIMARU!!!!!!!!!
when you kill brador his laugh sounds like patche's laugh
Great vid! Love all the bloodborne lore vids mucho! I think Simon is one of the first Healing Church hunters, which isn't the same as the Byrgenwerth scholars, the ones who violated the hamlet, so dem cats are the "forefathers" he's referring to. Probably a few years late, but hey, if I watch it today, it's new to me
Ludwig is not the only talking beast, the forest begger talks in human and beast mode.
Am I the only one who is drunk with the epicness of Laurence's theme song?
Nope
Simon: "I bet you WONT go to the Hunters Nightmare NO BALLS"
I can't believe I just jumped when I saw you posted this vide
For your question at the end, the healing Church Hunters happened long after the workshop hunters and the fishing Hamlet.
Technically, the Byrgenwerth scholars are the forefathers of the church, to answe your question about Simon's choice of words.
I put up an annotation about that and even mentioned it in the description. I wasn't thinking right. Sorry!
***** Oh, wasn't looking at the screen, also has anyone took a closer look at the piles of armour, and shields down in Chalice town, what kind are they, and why does hardly anything down there wear it?
Peyton Spain hey I know this comment is two years old and you probably already got your answer or just dont care. But I believe the armor is from past explorations of the dungeons. So before Laurence or any of the scholars even set foot in them. Possibly even before Byrgenwerth was created
I feel like there's so much more to Simon and Brador that they aren't telling.
Brador says my favorite quote in all the game: "Nothing changes, such is the nature of man.."
Everything change
From my understanding, Simon was one of the first healing church hunters, but the fishing hamlet's atrocity was committed by either the byrgenwyrth scholars, or the original workshop hunters, slightly predating the foundation of the healing church.
Ludwig was not the only beast that could speak. The Abhorrent Beast also speaks, capable of coherent speech as well.
Jacob Jimenez I think that's different because he can transform and untransform
I wish Simon had a lisp, that would be hilarious with all the "s's" he says
Simon would make a great anime character just a humble begger that turns into a bad ass
3:17
omg. Spot on invader comparison.