What Kono was saying was because you can’t use your hands to move the sword you have to use your body movement. If you do Martial Arts it is obvious what he was about to say.
Hi, thanks for posting this excellent video! Can you please share where it is from, maybe a bigger documentary about martial arts? It would be interesting to see the other points about body movement of old day samurai. Also, I would like to point out the amazing way in which Kono sensei walks/runs seen at 0:42 of this clip. His upper body is straight and there is no swinging and twisting - notice how his spin and head are completely straight. This is very difficult for modern people to do, especially in the relaxed manner that he shows it. I have trained with Kuroda sensei and he also explains this very well, but it would be nice to find a video to show to people at the aikido dojo because they don't seem to get it...
This is a great video. Interestingly I accidentally kinda discovered this myself when my kashira kept getting pulled off so I moved my back arm in for that reason haha
That doesn't make any sense. Why would you fight differently in a dojo? Training in a dojo should be preparing you for real application. What would be the point of training yourself to be ineffective?
CuteBlondeGuy Many modern day martial arts gives more focus on 2 things either self defence or training of the body, rarely ever would students ever be taught how to deliver a killing blow. Old days were essentially kill or be killed hence approaches are very different to modern day where most of the time it's to win a point. Eg: muaythai in most tournaments have forbidden elbow/knee strikes because you can easily kill someone with those however the traditional muaythai centred upon techniques using knee/elbow. TaiChi modern day is often seen as the slow fluid movements almost like dancing which focuses more on delicate movements and strengthening your body where as the traditional taichi for combat is actually quite fast focusing hits to the core/vital areas (which would be considered foul play if used in a tournament)
Derpeh You have a point, I agree that many schools have generated sport versions that train to be effective in a point scoring system, so perhaps that is Dominique's perspective. That said, I have trained in five different martial arts (shotokan karate, tai chi chuan, aikido, western circle of sword fighting, and myu sim kendo) and all five have made a point of application of effective technique, but done with control to prevent serious injury or death in the training environment.
Derpeh of you take away elbow and knee strikes its kickboxing iv NEVER seen a muy thai fight whare thay take away knees and elbows and im in the U.S. whare muythai is not that big so i have no idea whare you are getting this in thailand thay elbow and knee eachother till this day soo what the hell are you talking about
He means knees to the groin or elbow to the throats. Elbows to that arms and legs, just imagine giving people charlie horses all over. Knee to the jaw like uppercut instead of forehead. Kicks and knees to the calf muscle it does more damage than the shin/quadriceps leg/chopping move.
The way I learned MSR Iaido, the hands were close together (about half a fist apart, but closer is fine). They need to be, in order to achieve the elliptic arc which is so prized in Iaido, and for the cutting technique itself - which uses the lower hand for most of the power. With hands farther apart, you rely more on leverage.
Impressive. Great to see the research to correct modern mistakes. I don't really know how the methods he uses makes sword fighting more effective. But I don't have much experience, so I may get me bokken and try for myself later.
To re-iterate what has been mentioned, almost all of the bujutsu Koryu space their hands together. Some even mention that specifically in their manuals.The handle being as long as it is can only maximise the leverage produced by placing the hands apart. It may well be that the artists of these pictures simply drew them incorrectly ( either on purpose or not) or didn't care to be technically correct. The TSKSR and the Yagyu Shinkage actually make SPECIFIC references to spacing the hands and why it is done.
It's true that making wider movements makes it more predictable. However, saying that going from point A to point B is more efficient space and time wise, is too much of a simplification since you have to consider leverage, which muscle you're using and coordination (for example, would be able to lift a heavy boulder faster and/or easier with your bare hands or with a lever?).
With that closer grip you might do faster swings, but you'll have no controll at all. The left hand drives every movement of the sword, and to do so it has to be at the edge of the tsuka, around the makidome in a iaito.
That's a pretty big exaggeration. You can still do everything with a shorter grip that you can with a longer grip. However, both types facilitate different end goals and fighting strategies better than the other. To use Germanic longsword fencing sources as an example, [which are basically 80% the same as most forms of Kenjutsu, technically-speaking] shorter handles fare better with nimbler, whole body movements and maneuver better in a bind without compromising your ability to control the opponent's blade. While there may be less authority in brute force actions, or cuts executed with just the hands alone, you don't just power through unless you want to get cut. Technique and the versatility offered by the weapon setup wins the day. And while longer hilts can be cumbersome and simply tie your arms up much easier in scenarios like that in the example above, longer hilts offer a longer lever. This means they have the unique ability to be able to generate good cutting power from less than optimal conditions, like only being able to use your arms to power the cut, rather than the whole body. It's also great for twitching around the opponent's sword to deliver a devastating cut from all sorts of different angles. And of course, there's plenty of surviving examples with a hilt in-between the two. No two swordsmen or styles are alike--in Europe OR Japan. So while it may be a bit of a stretch to assume ALL styles used a short grip, it's equally unrealistic to assume none of them did, just because a couple of surviving styles (only a fraction to have ever existed) just so happen to prefer an extended gripping posture. Again: Both can do everything the other can--just not quite as well. Last I checked, most tsuka tended to be somewhere in-between at around 3-4 fists long--much shorter than the average shinai anyways. This shows a far less polarized preference on average. Just choke up on the tsuka when you want the benefits it affords, and widen your grip to tap into the benefits offered by that particular grip. It's not that hard, people. No need for the false dichotomy fallacies. :P
I find I have _more_ control with a closer grip, not less. I have a better feel for edge alignment, for one. But that is because I am most familiar with this particular grip. If you are more accustomed to a grip where the hands are spaced farther apart, then you will naturally be inclined to think the opposite.
then let me suggest kuroda tetsuzan sensei , who influenced kano sensei in many aspect , kuroda sensei possess some super human reflexes in terms of his kenjutsu ,batto and jujutsu
I think at the end of the video Sensei was saying "you'll end up using your thigh and leg more..." Using thigh and leg more usually increase efficiency, maybe.
Enough with the black-and-white thinking, people. Nothing's ever that simple, anyways. You can still do everything with a shorter grip that you can with a longer grip. However, both types facilitate different end goals and fighting strategies better than the other. To use Germanic longsword fencing sources as an example, [which are basically 80% the same as most forms of Kenjutsu, technically-speaking] shorter handles fare better with nimbler, whole body movements and maneuver better in a bind without compromising your ability to control the opponent's blade. While there may be less authority in brute force actions, or cuts executed with just the hands alone, you don't just power through unless you want to get cut. Technique and the versatility offered by the weapon setup wins the day. And while longer hilts can be cumbersome and simply tie your arms up much easier in scenarios like that in the example above, longer hilts offer a longer lever. This means they have the unique ability to be able to generate good cutting power from less than optimal conditions, like only being able to use your arms to power the cut, rather than the whole body. It's also great for twitching around the opponent's sword to deliver a devastating cut from all sorts of different angles. And of course, there's plenty of surviving examples with a hilt in-between the two. No two swordsmen or styles are alike--in Europe OR Japan. So while it may be a bit of a stretch to assume ALL styles used a short grip, it's equally unrealistic to assume none of them did, just because a couple of surviving styles (only a fraction to have ever existed) just so happen to prefer an extended gripping posture. Again: Both can do everything the other can--just not quite as well. Last I checked, most tsuka tended to be somewhere in-between at around 3-4 fists long--much shorter than the average shinai anyways. This shows a far less polarized preference on average. Just choke up on the tsuka when you want the benefits it affords, and widen your grip to tap into the benefits offered by that particular grip. It's not that hard, people. No need for the false-dichotomy fallacies. :P
***** Pretty much, although sabers started developing around the same time "rapiers" were still basically sideswords or stabby arming swords. (Dussacks/tessacks are the most likely candidates.) Also, sabers were usually weapons of war, rather than civilian weapons--unlike the rapier. Different applications. :)
HipposHateWater, you are correct. Some researchers - whether it is martial arts, history or whatever - seem to be of the mindset that the current, mainstream knowledge must be wrong, and that the _truth_ must lie somewhere else. They therefore shun mainstream knowledge in the name of critical thinking, but end up being quite narrow-minded in the effort. "No, that's not the way. _My_ research indicates that..." Such people are perhaps necessary to progress/evolution in their given fields, because it stimulates debate, but they tend to be too fond of their own theories - and may be as wrong as they are right. Like you said, HHW, nothing is ever black and white.
it's as kono says, it's easier to move your entire body with your hands together. Every school that i know of trains you to use your body with your hands apart to the point it's just as if you have your hands together. So for those warriors who have little to no training in schools, they would use their hands together.
@@masterdimsen I know this is an old comment, but I'll ask away: Do you happen to remember the name of the series? I'd probably be correct if I said that this was broadcasted on NHK World-Japan.
This leaves me with more questions than answers. What or whom, exactly, is he studying? It is not as if there aren't *already* extant forms of Koryu in Japan today. As far as I know, neither Katori Shinto Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, nor any of the Ittô ryu use this grip - and why would one suppose that there was a "general" method used in the past, rather than "individual" or "family" styles? With no "public form", why would there be a "this is how *they* did" in general terms?
gekiryudojo I looked but couldn't find part two, would you be so kind as to list the link or provide guidance to where it is listed or the name to search for it? Thank you!
Well, as far as I understand he teaches, does seminars, interviews etc. Could be someone who was more familiar with him, knew the answers - or could suggest an answer. Or maybe not. I am not going to pursue it any further; too many things to do, and too little time to do it in. *Shrugs*
grbushido i believe you are right, I practice MJER iaijutsu, we use the close hand grip in only 1 kata Tsubame gaeshi (tsumeai no kurai) it makes you zigzag faster like a swallow bird in the air, smaller movement saves time. You do sacrifice plow through power and control. You can practice this also when cutting tameshigiri a right to left kiriage (rising cut) on the low part of the target, followed by a left to right yoko cut to the target before it falls, practice it both ways and see the difference, closed grip versus wide traditional grip
Wished there was MMA with weapons, to prove or disprove the effectivity. Too bad it would be too dangerous, not to mention messy. Else, pretty much is quite theoretical and in the "what if I do this" controlled realm.
Then it would only prove which weapons work in a sport competition and not combat. Just like the empty hand fighting. You are just not going to create a combat safe system without removing chunks of the combat applications. Unless were talking about death matches. So we can rely on the fact the kenjutsu killed many for centuries in actual real combat and not a safe sport version.
My kendo sensei trained at Busen in Kyoto prior to WWII. He emphasized the left hand. If the motion of the sword is not straight, the blade may bend or break when cutting. The only time I saw him with his hands together would be for men kaeshi do. Putting your hands together greatly reduces control of the edge. In jodan, with one hand, the sword is held near the end, the same in nitoryu. BTW his black belt student doesn't know how to hold the practice sword. His hands are wrong, and his stance is wrong, even from an aikijujitsu point of view.
What Kono was saying was because you can’t use your hands to move the sword you have to use your body movement. If you do Martial Arts it is obvious what he was about to say.
What Kono was saying was because you can’t use your hands to move the sword you have to use your body movement.
If you do Martial Arts it is obvious what he was about to say.
My gratitude!!! Many blessings!!
Great video, excellent instruction and information, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge ( Domo arigato gozai imasu )
Hi, thanks for posting this excellent video! Can you please share where it is from, maybe a bigger documentary about martial arts? It would be interesting to see the other points about body movement of old day samurai.
Also, I would like to point out the amazing way in which Kono sensei walks/runs seen at 0:42 of this clip. His upper body is straight and there is no swinging and twisting - notice how his spin and head are completely straight. This is very difficult for modern people to do, especially in the relaxed manner that he shows it. I have trained with Kuroda sensei and he also explains this very well, but it would be nice to find a video to show to people at the aikido dojo because they don't seem to get it...
This is a great video. Interestingly I accidentally kinda discovered this myself when my kashira kept getting pulled off so I moved my back arm in for that reason haha
that old way of warrior is the difference between fighting in real life and death situation than in a dojo
That doesn't make any sense. Why would you fight differently in a dojo? Training in a dojo should be preparing you for real application. What would be the point of training yourself to be ineffective?
CuteBlondeGuy Many modern day martial arts gives more focus on 2 things either self defence or training of the body, rarely ever would students ever be taught how to deliver a killing blow. Old days were essentially kill or be killed hence approaches are very different to modern day where most of the time it's to win a point.
Eg: muaythai in most tournaments have forbidden elbow/knee strikes because you can easily kill someone with those however the traditional muaythai centred upon techniques using knee/elbow. TaiChi modern day is often seen as the slow fluid movements almost like dancing which focuses more on delicate movements and strengthening your body where as the traditional taichi for combat is actually quite fast focusing hits to the core/vital areas (which would be considered foul play if used in a tournament)
Derpeh You have a point, I agree that many schools have generated sport versions that train to be effective in a point scoring system, so perhaps that is Dominique's perspective. That said, I have trained in five different martial arts (shotokan karate, tai chi chuan, aikido, western circle of sword fighting, and myu sim kendo) and all five have made a point of application of effective technique, but done with control to prevent serious injury or death in the training environment.
Derpeh of you take away elbow and knee strikes its kickboxing iv NEVER seen a muy thai fight whare thay take away knees and elbows and im in the U.S. whare muythai is not that big so i have no idea whare you are getting this in thailand thay elbow and knee eachother till this day soo what the hell are you talking about
He means knees to the groin or elbow to the throats. Elbows to that arms and legs, just imagine giving people charlie horses all over. Knee to the jaw like uppercut instead of forehead. Kicks and knees to the calf muscle it does more damage than the shin/quadriceps leg/chopping move.
kuroda tetsuzan is one of my heroes! I have a video of him on my Channel
The way I learned MSR Iaido, the hands were close together (about half a fist apart, but closer is fine). They need to be, in order to achieve the elliptic arc which is so prized in Iaido, and for the cutting technique itself - which uses the lower hand for most of the power. With hands farther apart, you rely more on leverage.
Impressive. Great to see the research to correct modern mistakes.
I don't really know how the methods he uses makes sword fighting more effective. But I don't have much experience, so I may get me bokken and try for myself later.
Just like old hatsumi always says :)
Thank you
This guy is so awesome.
Thanks for that, interesting
To re-iterate what has been mentioned, almost all of the bujutsu Koryu space their hands together. Some even mention that specifically in their manuals.The handle being as long as it is can only maximise the leverage produced by placing the hands apart. It may well be that the artists of these pictures simply drew them incorrectly ( either on purpose or not) or didn't care to be technically correct.
The TSKSR and the Yagyu Shinkage actually make SPECIFIC references to spacing the hands and why it is done.
Paul Sacramento 8
Excellent infor, very interesting. What want to know is where is the rest of the video. I want to hear the explanation!
Gonna have to experiment with this technique. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks
Wow that man move like thunder !!!!!! :o
That was really getting interesting
where's the rest of the video ! ¬¬
Seriously though... "You end up..."
It's true that making wider movements makes it more predictable. However, saying that going from point A to point B is more efficient space and time wise, is too much of a simplification since you have to consider leverage, which muscle you're using and coordination (for example, would be able to lift a heavy boulder faster and/or easier with your bare hands or with a lever?).
No one is faster :) They move at the same time. Just one knows what the other will do and counter it.
Substandard Gamer Kiba ???
With that closer grip you might do faster swings, but you'll have no controll at all. The left hand drives every movement of the sword, and to do so it has to be at the edge of the tsuka, around the makidome in a iaito.
That's a pretty big exaggeration. You can still do everything with a shorter grip that you can with a longer grip. However, both types facilitate different end goals and fighting strategies better than the other.
To use Germanic longsword fencing sources as an example, [which are basically 80% the same as most forms of Kenjutsu, technically-speaking] shorter handles fare better with nimbler, whole body movements and maneuver better in a bind without compromising your ability to control the opponent's blade. While there may be less authority in brute force actions, or cuts executed with just the hands alone, you don't just power through unless you want to get cut. Technique and the versatility offered by the weapon setup wins the day.
And while longer hilts can be cumbersome and simply tie your arms up much easier in scenarios like that in the example above, longer hilts offer a longer lever. This means they have the unique ability to be able to generate good cutting power from less than optimal conditions, like only being able to use your arms to power the cut, rather than the whole body. It's also great for twitching around the opponent's sword to deliver a devastating cut from all sorts of different angles.
And of course, there's plenty of surviving examples with a hilt in-between the two. No two swordsmen or styles are alike--in Europe OR Japan. So while it may be a bit of a stretch to assume ALL styles used a short grip, it's equally unrealistic to assume none of them did, just because a couple of surviving styles (only a fraction to have ever existed) just so happen to prefer an extended gripping posture.
Again: Both can do everything the other can--just not quite as well. Last I checked, most tsuka tended to be somewhere in-between at around 3-4 fists long--much shorter than the average shinai anyways. This shows a far less polarized preference on average. Just choke up on the tsuka when you want the benefits it affords, and widen your grip to tap into the benefits offered by that particular grip. It's not that hard, people. No need for the false dichotomy fallacies. :P
I find I have _more_ control with a closer grip, not less. I have a better feel for edge alignment, for one. But that is because I am most familiar with this particular grip. If you are more accustomed to a grip where the hands are spaced farther apart, then you will naturally be inclined to think the opposite.
yes and I also want to here every word that leaves Kono Sensei's Lips! he is very interesting.
I want to Train with this Master!
then let me suggest kuroda tetsuzan sensei , who influenced kano sensei in many aspect , kuroda sensei possess some super human reflexes in terms of his kenjutsu ,batto and jujutsu
Like I did on watching this!
I think at the end of the video Sensei was saying "you'll end up using your thigh and leg more..." Using thigh and leg more usually increase efficiency, maybe.
That's the real deal right there.
Enough with the black-and-white thinking, people. Nothing's ever that simple, anyways.
You can still do everything with a shorter grip that you can with a longer grip. However, both types facilitate different end goals and fighting strategies better than the other.
To use Germanic longsword fencing sources as an example, [which are basically 80% the same as most forms of Kenjutsu, technically-speaking] shorter handles fare better with nimbler, whole body movements and maneuver better in a bind without compromising your ability to control the opponent's blade. While there may be less authority in brute force actions, or cuts executed with just the hands alone, you don't just power through unless you want to get cut. Technique and the versatility offered by the weapon setup wins the day.
And while longer hilts can be cumbersome and simply tie your arms up much easier in scenarios like that in the example above, longer hilts offer a longer lever. This means they have the unique ability to be able to generate good cutting power from less than optimal conditions, like only being able to use your arms to power the cut, rather than the whole body. It's also great for twitching around the opponent's sword to deliver a devastating cut from all sorts of different angles.
And of course, there's plenty of surviving examples with a hilt in-between the two. No two swordsmen or styles are alike--in Europe OR Japan. So while it may be a bit of a stretch to assume ALL styles used a short grip, it's equally unrealistic to assume none of them did, just because a couple of surviving styles (only a fraction to have ever existed) just so happen to prefer an extended gripping posture.
Again: Both can do everything the other can--just not quite as well. Last I checked, most tsuka tended to be somewhere in-between at around 3-4 fists long--much shorter than the average shinai anyways. This shows a far less polarized preference on average. Just choke up on the tsuka when you want the benefits it affords, and widen your grip to tap into the benefits offered by that particular grip. It's not that hard, people. No need for the false-dichotomy fallacies. :P
***** Pretty much, although sabers started developing around the same time "rapiers" were still basically sideswords or stabby arming swords. (Dussacks/tessacks are the most likely candidates.)
Also, sabers were usually weapons of war, rather than civilian weapons--unlike the rapier. Different applications. :)
HipposHateWater, you are correct. Some researchers - whether it is martial arts, history or whatever - seem to be of the mindset that the current, mainstream knowledge must be wrong, and that the _truth_ must lie somewhere else. They therefore shun mainstream knowledge in the name of critical thinking, but end up being quite narrow-minded in the effort. "No, that's not the way. _My_ research indicates that..."
Such people are perhaps necessary to progress/evolution in their given fields, because it stimulates debate, but they tend to be too fond of their own theories - and may be as wrong as they are right. Like you said, HHW, nothing is ever black and white.
it's as kono says, it's easier to move your entire body with your hands together. Every school that i know of trains you to use your body with your hands apart to the point it's just as if you have your hands together. So for those warriors who have little to no training in schools, they would use their hands together.
Different styles use different methods. There are always trade offs for different methods.
Where can we see the rest of the video?
JaHa, great. I'll look for it. Thanks.
Why is there a Karateka demoing sword technique? Couldn't they find a Kenshi?
It's from a series, the karateka (Nicholas Pettas) was the host
@@masterdimsen I know this is an old comment, but I'll ask away: Do you happen to remember the name of the series? I'd probably be correct if I said that this was broadcasted on NHK World-Japan.
This leaves me with more questions than answers. What or whom, exactly, is he studying? It is not as if there aren't *already* extant forms of Koryu in Japan today. As far as I know, neither Katori Shinto Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, nor any of the Ittô ryu use this grip - and why would one suppose that there was a "general" method used in the past, rather than "individual" or "family" styles? With no "public form", why would there be a "this is how *they* did" in general terms?
dont avoid but come in and move to the side... thats still avoiding
Its entering from an angle that provides you an advantage. So still entering but not straight in.
I Luv'd it! Where's the second part?
on my channel somewhere
gekiryudojo I looked but couldn't find part two, would you be so kind as to list the link or provide guidance to where it is listed or the name to search for it? Thank you!
I'll see what I can do.
watch my latest video! the full version of this
the footwork is quite similar with that in Jeet Kune Do
find him and ask him
What is the footwork at 0:42? Is it from a specific art?
lol! yes!
Actually Nicolas slashes his own Wrist!
Well, as far as I understand he teaches, does seminars, interviews etc. Could be someone who was more familiar with him, knew the answers - or could suggest an answer. Or maybe not. I am not going to pursue it any further; too many things to do, and too little time to do it in. *Shrugs*
What is this clip from?
That because the Radius of his circle is small
and makes its faster ????
grbushido i believe you are right, I practice MJER iaijutsu, we use the close hand grip in only 1 kata Tsubame gaeshi (tsumeai no kurai) it makes you zigzag faster like a swallow bird in the air, smaller movement saves time. You do sacrifice plow through power and control. You can practice this also when cutting tameshigiri a right to left kiriage (rising cut) on the low part of the target, followed by a left to right yoko cut to the target before it falls, practice it both ways and see the difference, closed grip versus wide traditional grip
Wished there was MMA with weapons, to prove or disprove the effectivity. Too bad it would be too dangerous, not to mention messy. Else, pretty much is quite theoretical and in the "what if I do this" controlled realm.
Hema
MMA fight does not prove anything.
Then it would only prove which weapons work in a sport competition and not combat. Just like the empty hand fighting. You are just not going to create a combat safe system without removing chunks of the combat applications. Unless were talking about death matches. So we can rely on the fact the kenjutsu killed many for centuries in actual real combat and not a safe sport version.
Basic Taisabaki
Kono killed the announcer.. just like that
My kendo sensei trained at Busen in Kyoto prior to WWII. He emphasized the left hand. If the motion of the sword is not straight, the blade may bend or break when cutting. The only time I saw him with his hands together would be for men kaeshi do. Putting your hands together greatly reduces control of the edge. In jodan, with one hand, the sword is held near the end, the same in nitoryu. BTW his black belt student doesn't know how to hold the practice sword. His hands are wrong, and his stance is wrong, even from an aikijujitsu point of view.
That guy is a karateka.
甲野氏の動きや所作が、他の武芸者とは明らかにスムーズに見える。力みがない。自得した動きなので、他者が真似しにくいが映像に残してくれた事はありがたい。
What Kono was saying was because you can’t use your hands to move the sword you have to use your body movement.
If you do Martial Arts it is obvious what he was about to say.