I have a different explanation for how Benjen could be in Mormont's Raven despite dying north of the wall. It could be that the wall doesn't prevent a merged being from crossing, it only severs ranged links between separate people or objects. John and Ghost can't communicate with each other over the wall, and Varamyr can't astrally project from him own body into a bird and fly it over the wall. But maybe if Varamyr died, gave up his link to his original body, and became a loose soul, he could then possess a bird and fly over the wall. Maybe that's whaat happened to Benjen.
Okay I've just had a thought that I don't think anyone acknowledges. Bloodraven is still Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He never died, his oath still stands. That might mean something.
I disagree because I think there is something to the fact the wall is one of the few places with an election we see. Again to quote old nan "as long as the men of the nights watch stay true" I think its very george that if there is power in the position of lord commander that power is tied to the institutions and democratic process of the nightswatch or at least that power resides where the men of the nightswatch think it resides. That the power of the wall is tied to the men manning it. Also bloodraven says "I was a crow once" to bran iirc. Shows he, at least, doesn't consider himself a member of the watch anymore which even if he was only by a technicality to be warging the crow he would have to be aware of this fact and exploiting it so I don't think he would have responded in such a way. That being said, it would make sense that him being Lord commander was a crucial part of his plans whatever they were because he took so many men with him to the wall seemingly planning to become lord commander. If it was always to go to the cave why stay and be lord commander first and also why would george write it in. Don't think it convinces me though.
That makes sense. The prologue is definitely a setup. Also I suspect Bloodraven attached to the tree is the natural version of what the starks are doing in winter fell. The statues are all alive (except rickard). The crypt is completely made of oily ebony wood, and in the first chapter Ned is feeding them blood via the black stump in the middle of town to power the magic. Bloodraven and the people involved, have set himself up as another warg king to oppose the current Night King in Winterfell, Ned's very own brother, Brandon Stark.
Lost men presumed dead are declared legally dead all the time. So the whatever can continue with leadership. BR, he told Bran he's supposed to become BR now...
I don't recall? Was benjen ever pronounced officially dead in any sort of way? Having thought back on this when they burn a nightswatchman the attending brothers release the dead man from his vows. They say his watch is ended. We actually have benjen as a case study for how the watch would have treated the disappearance of a leader as there was a new head ranger appointed but I can't recall benjen being formally pronounced dead. If the traditions and rituals of the nightswatch have any sort of magical meaning at least at some point and if the brother has not been released from their vows by their brothers then maybe they are still a part of the watch. Still unconvinced based on what I think fits the narrative.
Just to note folks that we were here when the old theories were rewritten. I think this is gonna catch on as the leading hypothesis. I have never been convinced by any other benjen theory and always had issues with both how central bloodraven is to many theories in a way the text doesnt really seem to support and ive never found really fit George's style and the narrative. As such i think this is as good as the bloodraven crow theory evidence wise and better narratively. We are the footsoliders of the truth, we must bear this torch aloft for all to see!!
I'd say that regular skin changers probably can't warg through the wall, but I think greenseers like bloodraven and bran would be able to surpass that obstacle. Considering they can see through the trees in the south
This theory is one of the most intriguing I've heard in a while. It's just funny that we've all been so sure of who was involved with the ravens that we have overlooked something like this. It'll be awesome if this is the answer to what happened to Nuncle Ben.
I don't know if this is mentioned later in the video, but I was under the assumption that Bloodraven was connected to the Weirwoods specifically to bypass the Wall's magical connection. HOTD kinda confirms this when Daemon touches the tree and sees Brynden. Though it obviously isn't (yet) book canon, I think it has pretty good precedent to be book canon. The roots likely go underneath the Wall, and maybe Bloodraven being connected to the South in that regard is enough for him to be able to warg beyond the Wall to the South. It's kinda like a signal booster.
Could the raven simply have gone north of the wall with Benjen? Either on his shoulder or flown over. Then Benjen died near the raven, possessed it and flew back. I think you mentioned that Benjen disappeared shortly after Jon arrived and then Jon didn't notice the raven until after.
man this theory works so well but then I have to accept than Benjen is dead. My biggest questions are when would Benjen's powers have awakened, and was he working with Bloodraven? Also, how that Jon's powers have awakened, imagine if he wargs into the raven and finds Benjen there.
I’ve had this same theory for a couple years!! In my head I’ve been calling it the Squawky Talky theory. I’m glad Michael made his way to it too and presented it! Aemon/A Thousand Eyes and None is a dope take too.
So I think Benjens warg powers tripped when he first went to the wall, and that he and Mormont have been using it to talk while he’s out ranging for years. Why else would Mormont bring his elderly crotchety pet that’s on a specialized diet out on the great ranging? He wants it’s (Benjens) advice, even if using a raven to communicate can only get you so far
Love the part where dude says “ dunno sorry it’s been 10 years since I read that book” While I’m sat here thinking “I been listening to these for every night for almost 10 years”
The first book is a whole different experience once you understand that Grrm is telling the story of these characters but also showing what happened in the past. A lot of questions we have about past events and things mentioned in twoiaf are already answered in the text of the books.
Children are taking over the world using the crows. Crows feed on corpses after battle. They make people play the game of thrones so they will clash. Afterwards they FEAST!
I have an interesting mini fan theory I thought of myself that Euron Greyjoy like the Targaryen‘s trying to hatch dragons Euron will have the right ingredients to summon a Kraken, but not the true recipe, and will fail. Not just because of the Targaryen‘s thinking they know how to hatch dragons but couldn’t but because the Greyjoy’s always fail.
I think a really compelling subtheory is hidden in here - the idea that Benjen probably knew a lot more about the old gods/magic/coming end game than people really consider. It actually makes less sense that Benjen would spent like 16 years doing nothing but hunting freefolk without really thinking about why. The story makes a point to show that Benjen was interested in joining the watch before all of the stuff with Lyanna and the war happened. So it's not like he only sent himself to the wall as some sort of self imposed punishment/exile. It is less of a slamdunk that he knew Bloodraven, but it's really not that big of a stretch. Especially if you include the possibility that Bloodraven was using him as a proxy and helping him discover information without ever like literally inviting him to the cave and introducing himself fully. Like again it feels like it almost makes less sense that Bloodraven wouldn't see the opportunity that came with working with Benjen. Benjen was a high ranking volunteer, so he had a relatively high freedom of movement. He was allowed to leave the wall without any supervision for most of his tenure - north or south. I feel like it's very on brand for GRRM for the character who has the most information and spent years preparing to be killed offscreen early in the first book. Also, I really like the idea that the answer to the question "Why didn't Benjen tell anyone about Lyanna/Rhaegar or later anything he was seeing at the wall?" is "because a magic voice in his head told him not to."
you guys should do all the order of the greenhands theories on Mance Rayder being Arthur Dayne and Jon being the son of Ashara and Ned. The evidence for N+A=J from the book source material is much more convincing than R+L=J. Young Griff being son of Lyanna and Rhaygar also makes much more sense.
I believe N+A=J but Brandon warged into Ned during the process if you catch my drift. This ties together the whole thing about abominations and also explains Neds kids completely. Long story short, Brandon was/is a bad dude and he has a history of taking what (and who) he wanted(Lady Barbery PoV). Jon, Bran, and Arya are all the results of Brandon warging Ned when he shouldn't be. And order of the greenhand would really get a kick out of the fact that Catelyn is probably aware of it and not telling Ned (Cat 1, her convo with Ned implies she knows about Brandon being the current warg king)
Corn and horn are the result of two different paths of descent from the same Indo-European root word. Both mean horn. an example is unicorn instead of unihorn. Also there is the Corn of Copia also known as the Horn of Plenty. They both mean the Horn. Also, there may be evidence that Benjen is actually Jon's father, so thr raven saying father could imply that.
In terms of people getting cut off from magic, wouldn't the maesters and the obsidian candles be an example? The dragons effectively act as an on and off switch for them.
Huh that's interesting. If we are assuming that something about dragons allows fire magic to be done worldwide seemingly in a similar manner to warging seemingly being enabled the existence of weirwoods (supported by anti old gods folks destroying weirwoods). Then what was the original source of that magic. Dragons seemingly an amalgamation of wyrms iirc and wyverns. They are seemingly intrinsically tied to volcanos in particular. The wyrms seemingly lived underground at 14 (iirc) flames etc. Dragon's eggs and elsewhere are described as being like stone. Perhaps the source of the magic is deep underground, the spirit of the earth, the Underworld (or I like a coal-analogous energy build up from all those that die) etc. What has changed by the dragons being around is that there is now a channel from that power below ground to the world above. This could be parallel to the weirwoods that seem to draw water from deep underground and at least reach deep, maybe give access to the power below to those above. We are told specifically that those who die go into among other things the rocks and the earth. The issue here is that what is then allowing the connection now when it wasn't there before and what is blocking it. We seem to see bodies of water breaking the connection, weirwoods not acting in essos. Similarly enough distance of rock such as the weirwood the arryns tried to plant but both of these could specifically be limits of the weirwoods as opposed to magic generally. Not sure I have a convincing argument beyond maybe the dragons being like mini versions of what the power underground related to volcanos is like. We do see melisandra who seems to like being at the wall as she feels stronger there (stronger connection into the earth) but where was she before? Dragonstone, where there was a volcano, possibly travelled there as it made her slightly stronger too. Also notable how many important and seemingly magical places are underground if still not convincing. I think this needs a little while more in the oven.
Ned didn't die. He did the shadow clone jutsu just like Oberyn. He is working with the faceless men to stop the Stark practice of turning themselves into greyscale clad warg kings.
I'm not entirely convinced, but I am willing to consider the theory for one reason. I have always been a fan of the theory that the raven is actually yelling Qhorin, not corn. At first, I thought it was condemning Jon for killing Qhorin. But if this theory is true, I think Benjen may be proclaiming his killer. After all, Qhorin halfhand IS actually Oswell Went and working with Mance Rayder.
I'd have to have a look at which raven quotes happened when, but is it possible that Benjin wasn't actually dead until the great ranging happened, and that's when he entered the raven?
I have a different explanation for how Benjen could be in Mormont's Raven despite dying north of the wall. It could be that the wall doesn't prevent a merged being from crossing, it only severs ranged links between separate people or objects.
John and Ghost can't communicate with each other over the wall, and Varamyr can't astrally project from him own body into a bird and fly it over the wall. But maybe if Varamyr died, gave up his link to his original body, and became a loose soul, he could then possess a bird and fly over the wall. Maybe that's whaat happened to Benjen.
There is a heart tree growing through the wall, that could be bloodravens way through
Okay I've just had a thought that I don't think anyone acknowledges. Bloodraven is still Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He never died, his oath still stands. That might mean something.
I disagree because I think there is something to the fact the wall is one of the few places with an election we see.
Again to quote old nan "as long as the men of the nights watch stay true" I think its very george that if there is power in the position of lord commander that power is tied to the institutions and democratic process of the nightswatch or at least that power resides where the men of the nightswatch think it resides. That the power of the wall is tied to the men manning it. Also bloodraven says "I was a crow once" to bran iirc. Shows he, at least, doesn't consider himself a member of the watch anymore which even if he was only by a technicality to be warging the crow he would have to be aware of this fact and exploiting it so I don't think he would have responded in such a way.
That being said, it would make sense that him being Lord commander was a crucial part of his plans whatever they were because he took so many men with him to the wall seemingly planning to become lord commander. If it was always to go to the cave why stay and be lord commander first and also why would george write it in. Don't think it convinces me though.
That makes sense. The prologue is definitely a setup. Also I suspect Bloodraven attached to the tree is the natural version of what the starks are doing in winter fell. The statues are all alive (except rickard). The crypt is completely made of oily ebony wood, and in the first chapter Ned is feeding them blood via the black stump in the middle of town to power the magic. Bloodraven and the people involved, have set himself up as another warg king to oppose the current Night King in Winterfell, Ned's very own brother, Brandon Stark.
Lost men presumed dead are declared legally dead all the time. So the whatever can continue with leadership. BR, he told Bran he's supposed to become BR now...
I don't recall? Was benjen ever pronounced officially dead in any sort of way? Having thought back on this when they burn a nightswatchman the attending brothers release the dead man from his vows. They say his watch is ended. We actually have benjen as a case study for how the watch would have treated the disappearance of a leader as there was a new head ranger appointed but I can't recall benjen being formally pronounced dead. If the traditions and rituals of the nightswatch have any sort of magical meaning at least at some point and if the brother has not been released from their vows by their brothers then maybe they are still a part of the watch. Still unconvinced based on what I think fits the narrative.
He abandoned the Night's Watch. Technically, he's a traitor and should be put to death.
The Corn King figure in mythology is someone who dies at the start of winter and returns with the coming of spring
Just to note folks that we were here when the old theories were rewritten. I think this is gonna catch on as the leading hypothesis. I have never been convinced by any other benjen theory and always had issues with both how central bloodraven is to many theories in a way the text doesnt really seem to support and ive never found really fit George's style and the narrative. As such i think this is as good as the bloodraven crow theory evidence wise and better narratively.
We are the footsoliders of the truth, we must bear this torch aloft for all to see!!
YES. SPREAD IT. FAR AND WIDE!
Shhh it’s too good. Let me take credit first real quick
Ikr! Finally a Benjen theory i like! I wasn’t a fan of any other ones
I'd say that regular skin changers probably can't warg through the wall, but I think greenseers like bloodraven and bran would be able to surpass that obstacle. Considering they can see through the trees in the south
This theory is one of the most intriguing I've heard in a while. It's just funny that we've all been so sure of who was involved with the ravens that we have overlooked something like this. It'll be awesome if this is the answer to what happened to Nuncle Ben.
I feel this way about a bunch of theories! We've spent so long thinking they're true, new ones seem incredible when they happen.
I don't know if this is mentioned later in the video, but I was under the assumption that Bloodraven was connected to the Weirwoods specifically to bypass the Wall's magical connection. HOTD kinda confirms this when Daemon touches the tree and sees Brynden. Though it obviously isn't (yet) book canon, I think it has pretty good precedent to be book canon. The roots likely go underneath the Wall, and maybe Bloodraven being connected to the South in that regard is enough for him to be able to warg beyond the Wall to the South. It's kinda like a signal booster.
The three heads of the dragon are the sacrifice, the rider and the dragon.
This is the best theory since ever.
Micheal knows about stuff!
Ned lived a lord, died a lord, lived a pigeon, died a bowl o' brown.
HOW ABOUT A NICE FAT PIGEON
Could the raven simply have gone north of the wall with Benjen? Either on his shoulder or flown over. Then Benjen died near the raven, possessed it and flew back. I think you mentioned that Benjen disappeared shortly after Jon arrived and then Jon didn't notice the raven until after.
man this theory works so well but then I have to accept than Benjen is dead. My biggest questions are when would Benjen's powers have awakened, and was he working with Bloodraven?
Also, how that Jon's powers have awakened, imagine if he wargs into the raven and finds Benjen there.
I’ve had this same theory for a couple years!! In my head I’ve been calling it the Squawky Talky theory. I’m glad Michael made his way to it too and presented it! Aemon/A Thousand Eyes and None is a dope take too.
So I think Benjens warg powers tripped when he first went to the wall, and that he and Mormont have been using it to talk while he’s out ranging for years. Why else would Mormont bring his elderly crotchety pet that’s on a specialized diet out on the great ranging? He wants it’s (Benjens) advice, even if using a raven to communicate can only get you so far
That library password story is lowkey one of the best things I've heard in a minute.
Love the part where dude says “ dunno sorry it’s been 10 years since I read that book”
While I’m sat here thinking “I been listening to these for every night for almost 10 years”
Now I have to reread the books again with all these theories in mind.
The first book is a whole different experience once you understand that Grrm is telling the story of these characters but also showing what happened in the past. A lot of questions we have about past events and things mentioned in twoiaf are already answered in the text of the books.
Michael freeing the text books XD
Children are taking over the world using the crows. Crows feed on corpses after battle. They make people play the game of thrones so they will clash. Afterwards they FEAST!
Okay I'm at 24:57. I'm gonna try and wholeshot the theory. Howland Reed is warging Mormont's raven.
Honestly, another excellent pitch
still waiting on the 6 hour video abt weirwoods in the wall, but this will keep me tided over until then :)
1 hour video on a Saturday morning. What a treat
That so sweet and kind to do, Michael!
LIBRARY FREEDOM
What a wholesome story of library theft. 😂
Library Theft is a good band name
I have an interesting mini fan theory I thought of myself that Euron Greyjoy like the Targaryen‘s trying to hatch dragons Euron will have the right ingredients to summon a Kraken, but not the true recipe, and will fail. Not just because of the Targaryen‘s thinking they know how to hatch dragons but couldn’t but because the Greyjoy’s always fail.
I think a really compelling subtheory is hidden in here - the idea that Benjen probably knew a lot more about the old gods/magic/coming end game than people really consider. It actually makes less sense that Benjen would spent like 16 years doing nothing but hunting freefolk without really thinking about why. The story makes a point to show that Benjen was interested in joining the watch before all of the stuff with Lyanna and the war happened. So it's not like he only sent himself to the wall as some sort of self imposed punishment/exile. It is less of a slamdunk that he knew Bloodraven, but it's really not that big of a stretch. Especially if you include the possibility that Bloodraven was using him as a proxy and helping him discover information without ever like literally inviting him to the cave and introducing himself fully. Like again it feels like it almost makes less sense that Bloodraven wouldn't see the opportunity that came with working with Benjen. Benjen was a high ranking volunteer, so he had a relatively high freedom of movement. He was allowed to leave the wall without any supervision for most of his tenure - north or south. I feel like it's very on brand for GRRM for the character who has the most information and spent years preparing to be killed offscreen early in the first book. Also, I really like the idea that the answer to the question "Why didn't Benjen tell anyone about Lyanna/Rhaegar or later anything he was seeing at the wall?" is "because a magic voice in his head told him not to."
you guys should do all the order of the greenhands theories on Mance Rayder being Arthur Dayne and Jon being the son of Ashara and Ned. The evidence for N+A=J from the book source material is much more convincing than R+L=J. Young Griff being son of Lyanna and Rhaygar also makes much more sense.
I believe N+A=J but Brandon warged into Ned during the process if you catch my drift. This ties together the whole thing about abominations and also explains Neds kids completely. Long story short, Brandon was/is a bad dude and he has a history of taking what (and who) he wanted(Lady Barbery PoV). Jon, Bran, and Arya are all the results of Brandon warging Ned when he shouldn't be. And order of the greenhand would really get a kick out of the fact that Catelyn is probably aware of it and not telling Ned (Cat 1, her convo with Ned implies she knows about Brandon being the current warg king)
Why wouldn't Benjen have lost himself into the mind of the crow over time, then?
Corn and horn are the result of two different paths of descent from the same Indo-European root word. Both mean horn. an example is unicorn instead of unihorn. Also there is the Corn of Copia also known as the Horn of Plenty. They both mean the Horn. Also, there may be evidence that Benjen is actually Jon's father, so thr raven saying father could imply that.
Benjen wargs in when john takes his oath at the hearttree north of the wall. And mormont is there watching the oath
Benjen in the raven is cooler than Bloodraven tbh. Makes more sense too.
In terms of people getting cut off from magic, wouldn't the maesters and the obsidian candles be an example? The dragons effectively act as an on and off switch for them.
Huh that's interesting. If we are assuming that something about dragons allows fire magic to be done worldwide seemingly in a similar manner to warging seemingly being enabled the existence of weirwoods (supported by anti old gods folks destroying weirwoods). Then what was the original source of that magic.
Dragons seemingly an amalgamation of wyrms iirc and wyverns. They are seemingly intrinsically tied to volcanos in particular. The wyrms seemingly lived underground at 14 (iirc) flames etc. Dragon's eggs and elsewhere are described as being like stone.
Perhaps the source of the magic is deep underground, the spirit of the earth, the Underworld (or I like a coal-analogous energy build up from all those that die) etc.
What has changed by the dragons being around is that there is now a channel from that power below ground to the world above.
This could be parallel to the weirwoods that seem to draw water from deep underground and at least reach deep, maybe give access to the power below to those above. We are told specifically that those who die go into among other things the rocks and the earth.
The issue here is that what is then allowing the connection now when it wasn't there before and what is blocking it.
We seem to see bodies of water breaking the connection, weirwoods not acting in essos. Similarly enough distance of rock such as the weirwood the arryns tried to plant but both of these could specifically be limits of the weirwoods as opposed to magic generally.
Not sure I have a convincing argument beyond maybe the dragons being like mini versions of what the power underground related to volcanos is like.
We do see melisandra who seems to like being at the wall as she feels stronger there (stronger connection into the earth) but where was she before? Dragonstone, where there was a volcano, possibly travelled there as it made her slightly stronger too. Also notable how many important and seemingly magical places are underground if still not convincing. I think this needs a little while more in the oven.
This is an excellent point. The mages in Qarth and the pyromancers too, getting their magic back!
3:50 theory starts
45:45 see also, rabies
The clue about the bird knowing Jon's parentage made me think of Howland Reed. Benjen didn't come to mind at all. How would he know of Jon's parents?
That beats my theory that the singers captured Benjen, along with Jojen, to turn into Weirwood paste for Bran, aka Benjenpaste.
How long has that "bottom text" been there omg
I’m at the 42 minute mark and I’m thinking “you know, there’s another Stark who died south of the wall, and if all starks can warg….”
Ned didn't die. He did the shadow clone jutsu just like Oberyn. He is working with the faceless men to stop the Stark practice of turning themselves into greyscale clad warg kings.
44:34 it is corse code pronounce as you would say coarse since it not a very fine code
K well I fully believe this now.
ITS SO GOOD
CORN!!
Omg this was the one I saw you recording the other day XD
also, view 69... hell yeah
NICE
Howland Reed controls south of the wall and Bloodraven north?
I had a theory similar to this but he was still alive
I'm not entirely convinced, but I am willing to consider the theory for one reason. I have always been a fan of the theory that the raven is actually yelling Qhorin, not corn. At first, I thought it was condemning Jon for killing Qhorin. But if this theory is true, I think Benjen may be proclaiming his killer. After all, Qhorin halfhand IS actually Oswell Went and working with Mance Rayder.
Woah😳
I'd have to have a look at which raven quotes happened when, but is it possible that Benjin wasn't actually dead until the great ranging happened, and that's when he entered the raven?
I swear Bloodraven is lying. Those singers in the birds are probably still alive, they just exist on the Isle of Faces and can't cross the wall
Orell gets booted out by Varmyr.
You right, orell gets killed by Jon and varamyr takes over his bird and then varamyr gets flame broiled.
I'M SQUAKIN' HERE!! 🤣
Great theory. 👍🏽👍🏽
Ok but if all the crows have Children in them and all crows are liars…
21:59 I got Coldhand's "pork" and Jojon paste.. anyone help me out on the third instance?
they counting warging?
And remember all the people last seen ahorse
Benjen stork
Birdjen
Nevermore - quothe the Raven.
15:00 Mel kills the bird