that "amp in the room" feel everyone complains about not being able to achieve with modelers can easily be achieved if you go through a poweramp and a cab
Yeah, I was surprised that wasn't mentioned. You don't have to use headphones when playing live with a modeler. You can just use the modeler as an amp and bring a poweramp/cab.
@@KDH not necessarily. you can get a stompbox sized poweramp and a cab (which you already would use in a live situation anyway even with a modeler in the form of a wedge for ex.) and run the wet/dry/wet through there
I have a line 6 helix I use for recording direct. Then I also have a seymour duncan powerstage 200 and an evh 2x12 I use live. And i mic the cab and run it hough the house speakers live and I still have a great stage sound too. Best of both worlds
As a very lazy and not particularly patient person, the Helix lets me try out all kinds of elaborate setups. Weirdly it was partly That Pedal Show that inspired me to get it (which ironically would horrify them), but I enjoyed their ideas, setups and tones so much I wanted a piece of that action without the time and (relative) money investment!
A lot of Boss's multi-effect pedals, I use the ME50, along with something like the DD20 have left and right outs, as well as headphone outs, making it easy to run everything wet/dry/wet. If you have a preamp before either of them, you can DI 3 signals to a PA and easy peasy, you have yourself a nice easy wet/dry/wet live sound. Assuming the sound guy at the gig you're playing isn't an eejit.
Wet/Dry/Wet was the clear winner for me just based on sound, I'm going to have to try that out sometime! To me, the real amps sounded very disorganized, like they were competing rather than working together. I wonder how one distortion or preamp pedal into two clean amps would sound? Maybe something for me to try out.
@@ramonw9430 I hate generic room tone, but my love of rip-ass guitar overshadows it, & I will tolerate an obnoxious room tone on a guitar vid like this, but the phase thing was unforgivable to me & literally just ruined the vid.
I used to run a half-direct stereo rig. I'd get the dry from a quilter 100w head and the wet would go into the PA through a cab sim. It worked pretty well and there's the benefit that you can adjust your monitor wedges separate from the FoH, meaning you can avoid your out sound from being too wet while being able to hear the effects
Bro I love watching everything you do . I have a lot of respect for you. You are always super transparent. Very important in your bussiness❤❤❤⚡️🫵🏻🤘🏻⚡️🔥🔥🔥
Nothing beats moving air. The interaction between strings and sound waves is a beautiful thing. I’m sure neck joint, bridge and wood choice affects sustain, but nowhere near as much as vibrating air molecules.
That's true and is significant if the listener hears that moving air. But what if you record your conventional amp and cabinet? Listeners are going to hear a recorded version of it, not the moving air sound they would hear if they were stranding in front of the amp. And what if you play live and your guitar cabinet is mic'd into the FOH? What are listeners going to hear? They're going to hear the P.A.'s reproduction of your amp and cabinet-- not the same as what YOU hear on stage standing in front of your amp. Food-for-thought.
What ultimately drove me to rigs than modellers was surprisingly flexibility. Yeah, sure, boatloads more amps and effects on hand with a modeller, but do they have parallel effects loops? How constrained are they with pedal placement, or adding some off-brand pedal right here in the chain? And out of the hundreds of amps and pedals available, how many will I actually use? While there is something to be said about the cost and ease of transport for modellers, when chasing "sound in your head", it is far easier to pursue that if someone else already defining what those sounds should be.
Interesting take, but I actually find my helix way way more flexible than any sort of real rig. There are all sorts of different routings (including parallel effects loops) that you can do, that would be extremely hard, if not impossible to make with a real amp. Inserting an off brand pedal into the chain is also as simple as pluging it in one of the 4 (!) fx loops, and just putting the send/return block literally anywhere in the signal chain.
@@w0mbatina +1 for the Helix. It can be as simple or complex as you like. I pair mine with a yamaha full range speaker for a bit of stage volume and it sounds great for rock. I generally use one amp model which is an original L6 one for all dirty (cleaning up with volume pot Van Halen style) and a jazz chorus for very clean. That's all I need with 4 snapshots and 4 stomp pedals for everything from Sultans to Slayer. I use other amp models for recording but simple is better for live.
I have a wealth of amps which get used for different tasks. Increasingly my Helix is becoming the go-to as it is much easier to set up and transport. Then again, I totally understand the fun to be had with a valve amp - I have a 100 watt Orange Rockerverb MKIII and it really does fill the room with sound - It's so powerful! However, recently I found a solution to this and for my Line 6 Helix I acquired a Laney LFR-212 800W 2X12" FRFR powered cab. If you want something that bridges the gap between modeling and valve amps that's your fella! - It's loud and really punches you with low end whilst retaining all the clarity and ease of use.
@@NeungView Yeah solid state power amps are way more efficient heatwise. Tube power amps have worse headroom which in some contexts is good. If you're not going for that solid states are great.
Recording wet and dry gives you all the options in the world in the studio. Everybody should do this :) As for the modellers... Do you know Gary Wehrkamp from Shadow Gallery? You should. When James LaBrie made his solo album, Wehrkamp was the player he went to. Anyway, when Shadow Gallery went on their only tour, he used a small portable Line 6 Pod 2. You'd never know.
Good demo of the pros and cons for each type of system. In my situation, a Modeler is the only practical solution, plus I like playing at 2am with the sound cranked up (in my headphones). 🤘 I have an HX Stomp, and I do have a suggestion regarding tone/sound. It seems like a lot of the Modeled Amps are set up with the "57 Dynamic" mic in the Cab Block. If you're using single coils or bright sounding pickups, I suggest you switch to the 121 Ribbon or 169 Ribbon. It will sound much more like an actual/real Amp, instead of the fizzy nonsense we're all too familiar with. Another cool thing, is that you can instantly switch the Mics, etc. via Snapshots. Another way to get a fuller, thicker more Amp-like sound on Line 6 Helix, is to use the Global EQ Controls to bump up the bass, and tame the trebles.😎
Great video! You speak my language :) I'm old school. Love my real tube amps but running stereo live is a TON of set up, lifting, carrying... I'm in my 40's... lol I also run two 3/4 stacks! Love the tone! It's HUGE! With that being said, I do own a HELIX Floor and love that too! Great for the reasons you spoke about BUT, live, I will kill my body and ear holes over that ANYTIME lol
Great video man. Glad you liked XPND! I've tried several rigs over the years when I was in a party band: mono, dual mono, stereo, W/D and W/D/W. My favourite was W/D/W. In the end I used dual mono most of the time (one amp, two cabs in serial). The second cab we mic'd up and added a touch of subtle chorus for some 'sway' and movement. I also tried it with two amps, one set full 100% delayed by various times. IIRC About 20-30ms was the sweet spot. Anyway, loads of fun to experiment. Your next challenge, should you choose to accept it, is a real life circular delay rig! I've never got the chance to set one up live but its supposed to be so much fun to just stand in the middle of. It's pretty easy to fake in your DAW however....
The main reason for a wet/dry rig is to preserve your tone. For example; you like how your tube amp sounds through the speaker but if you put effects in front of or in the FX loop of the amp it alters your original tone. To keep your tone and use effects you need to tap some of the tone you want and send it to the FX without interfering with the original tone. So, for example - I like the sound of my valve head when the preamp tubes and the power amp tubes are driven. If I put an FX unit in the FX loop of the amp then it's only seeing the signal from the preamp tubes before it's amplified so my original tone is now ruined. To keep my tone I need to send the signal to the FX AFTER the power amp. So I take the speaker out signal (with the tone I want) and use a line level device that allows the signal to continue on to the speaker (this is the 'dry side') but allows a little bit of the signal to be run off to the FX unit. So that's my original tone going into a speaker and a bit going to the FX unit. After the the sound goes through the FX unit it needs to be re amplified using a solid state (because valves will change the tone) amplifier that colors the tone as litt as possible then on to another speaker - this I the 'wet side'. The end result is a very large, wide sound utilising and preserving my original tone. That is/was the reason for wet/dry rigs. 😊
hails KDH!!! i run a similar wet/dry stereo set-up...a mesa mark IV (wet) paired with a EVH 50W stealth (dry)...also use the radial bigshot, what an awesome piece of gear...the mark IV is thru a mesa recto vert. 2X12, n the EVH is thru a mesa recto horizontal 2X12...tonal bliss, cheers brother!!!
actually Randy Rhoads had his speakers matching the house monitors, altec, Zack also later did the same with EV speakers, then used one whole track with effects from one head while the other was connected in series in another channel., then the house eng handled more bus channel effects like delays, etc to mix everyone.
There are so many people obsessed with having that "amp in the room" sound. Well, that's fine if the guitarist never plays his guitar outside of his bedroom or garage. It's also fine if he's playing such a small venue that the audience hears only the stage volume of the musicians' equipment. But if the guitarist records his music and/ or plays a venue large enough that the audience is going to hear his guitar amp and cabinet mic'd through a P.A., the listeners aren't going to hear that "amp in the room" sound, even if the guitarist is playing through a conventional amp and cabinet! Personally, I'd rather have the bazillions of benefits from the modeler and hear much more closely what the listeners are going to hear! By the way, you can ALSO run a modeler rig as wet/dry. I use a Fractal modeler and am actually running it wet/dry/wet. The Fractal is designed so that it can run separate "amps" out, each to separate speaker cabinets. Bob Bradshaw also built me a rack-mount wet/dry/wet device that is designed specifically for this purpose. A modeler run as a w/d/w or even w/d sounds fantastic. Now THAT'S something to compare to a conventional guitar amp and cabinet run w/d. I mean, now we can actually compare apples to apples.
Seriously man your sound is soo good. Makes me think of Zakk Wilde on one of Ozzy album. Please give us your Helix presets, anyway we will never play like you so it won't change a thing for you.
Option #3 - using a modeler to pass a dry signal straight through to a physical amp while also sending a fully-wet amp-sim signal straight to FOH. Best of both worlds, often overlooked.
I've experimented with a psuedo wet dry wet rig by using an a/b box to split signal between a dry amp on one output and a stereo rig on the other. Sounded decent
Wow... we have very similar ideal and perfect tones! Absolutely love that intro tone and the DK2S sounds amazing! Also the real amp set-up works better for me too. Tried digital / modelling and hated them.
I mean, if the whole point of stage volume is monitoring, why would you realistically need both signals on stage? Wouldn't have the wet dry setup going to the PA, and one of the two signals going to an FRFR on stage solve the stage volume problem without compromising on the score on weight, price, and all of those other good things we were talking about?
I use an mxr eq to split my signal between a tube amp and a Katana for wet/dry. I put a couple pedals in front of the eq, and I have an enormous amount of subtle flavor variations. It sounds fantastic. Modulation effects become very 3 dimensional, and the sound is thick and clear at the same time.
I'm not against amp modelers by any means, but I don't enjoy playing through them. There is an absolute difference in feel while playing. I'll record through a direct box, one side going into my interface completely dry, and the other side goes into an ABY signal splitter box that connects my two amps. I may keep my mic'd up amp tracks, or I might re-amp the dry signal with different settings, amps or mics, or run it through an amp modeler/sim. While actually playing I need the real amps. Afterwards it's whatever works the best for sound.
Great video sir as always in this channel. Loving that Ornsby. I would prefer the modeler. That's coming from a guy that still uses tube amp, etc. I am currently running a reverend kingsnake 20 / 60 1 x 12 tube amp, but I need a modeler because I'm 60 years old and tired of dragging gear around. I do love the feel and feedback of a tube amp. Tubes, rocu and tone = Good fun and quality sound. Still, modelers are the way to go. ♥️♥️🤘🤘
I use the Helix to do a W/D/W thing but I run out of the 1/4" jack to a live cab on stage. And then the stereo wet fx go through and IR and go out the XLRs L&R to the PA So I can have stereo fx in my iems and a dry mic'd sound in the center. I can have my sound as greasy and effected as I like and the rest of the band can have it drier if they prefer. Same for the FOH . It can be blended to taste out front. Pretty simple to do and only requires one amp
It may be worth noting that for your simplicity comparison, the modeler will only need to be setup once, whereas the amp needs to be setup in each instance the setting is required. So while troubleshooting a physical/amp setup may be easier, you will need to do so much more often than the modeler. Also, could you do a comparison where you run the modeler through the same amp/speaker setup (with just 1 set) to see how you then feel about stage/live volume?
Great video KDH. I would love to see you compare your real amp wet/dry rig with Helix through full range amp/cab to see if it gets you grinning in the same way 🤩
I know this is more about a comparison of modelers vs. wet/dry rigs to get a "full" sound, but it was mentioned early on that it's often done to mimic that double tracking sound in recordings. While I think the wet/dry is capable of coming very close to achieving this, especially when employing chorus and delay pedals- one thing is very hard to replicate in double tracking: that sound of two guitars just being slightly off from one another. I often think of Randy Rhodes and his tendency to intentionally play each part off from one another. In some ways we would consider it a mistake as each part will naturally not match each other perfectly, but that sound that is often created just can't be replicated any other way- and it leads to a complexity and fullness that goes beyond just doubling a single guitar.
So I'm using a Helix HX Effects with a 4-cable method in a hybrid rig. Meaning the amps are analog but the effects are digital. I do agree that the effects sometimes sound a little more plasticy, that's why in the studio I use my Maxon OD-808 instead of the build in tubescreamer, but for the convenience of being able to just program and dial in any odd pedal under the sun in a 600 euro box is just unbeatable. Is it the same as having 28 pedals to stomp on? No. Is it convenient for an up and coming band that literally just started out this year? Yes
Hey there! Good video. I saw that you were playing an Ormsby Futura 6,., how does it play. I was checking that same one out. It looks sweet. Best wishes
The last band I was in was only bass, drums, and vocals. In the studio, I tracked 3-4 bass tracks. To compensate for this in live settings I used 2 amps, Ampeg SVTII, and Sovtek Mig 60, a TS9DX, and a Rat. I ran this rig quite loud, and nobody ever said there was anything missing.
Got a Marshall 8100 for £80, Laney VC30 (was a gift but cost about £100 used) and a 6260 I found by a skip. Run one through a Marshall 1960a with v30s I got for £25+VAT at an auction and a 2x12 with greens I got for £60 for my cleans. Two notes CAB M for power amp SIM and IR loading as well as having a pass through, line or and XLR and headphone out which covers the sound guy and monitoring All that comes to about 1/4 the price of a kemper...
Oddly enough, I preferred the Helix tones more. I think that has a lot to do the amp choices. I’ve not heard a Victory amp that has really peaked my interest. Regardless, Wet/Dry rigs are always fun!
NGL that ad in the middle was a little bit cringe. like 100% respect the hustle, you should def take ad spots if it helps you do what you want to do, its just a little weird when theres not a clear separation between the actual content and the brand obligation.
I just can´t be arsed to lug a 100 Watt Amp and a pedalboard around. A Helix Stomp + Palmer Macht Poweramp + Midi Footswitch Controller is just so much more convenient and sounds just as good.
You want a big tone? Run wet/dry with two different amps. I'm running a Peavey XXX dry on a V30/GB 2x12 with a wet Orange Super Crush 100 on a V30/GB 2x12, and they both share a Marshal 1960 V30/GB loaded in an X pattern. Massive.
Analog gear, in my opinon is loud and personal, i mean you dial the tone to taste and your hands are doing the playing. You get your own sound...your tone from the bones and skin...i donno men...analog is expensive but sooooo cool to hear and play...lol this came from a digital team lover xD
Nothing beats that pants flapping volume of a real guitar amp going through guitar speakers in a guitar cabinet. You look forward to those loud gigs just so you can do it.
True, but those listening to you play might hear a recording of your playing, which will not capture the air vibrations. Or if you're playing on stage, unless you're playing in a small room where the listeners are hearing only the stage volume, your cab will be mic'd through a P.A. The P.A. will not reproduce the air vibrations you feel when listening to your guitar amp and cab directly.
Ahhh, seeing that Boss CE-3 makes me highly regret selling mine a few years back. It's the only way you can truly get that Andy Summers tone and play Message In a Bottle and impress all the girls!
I agree with you on the sound from the traditional amps. IMHO that could be mostly overcome with the right custom "Power Amp" to boost the sound. it seems to me the modeler is just trying too hard to make up for the punch in the standard amp. Maybe a lack of headroom? Having grown up in the era of 1000 W home entertainment systems clarity, very low noise floor and an almost spiritual like presence would just soak into your soul. These were seldom played above 50 W or so but like I said it just saturated the room with sound.
I think most of it is a case by case basis. The amp drive is better than the helix drive imo but the cleans in helix are gorgeous. I'd lean towards a different setup either way but I think I'd personally go for a good modeler and time learning ins and outs of that setups before confidently going for it in love scenario
How would you go about approaching a wet/dry rig for someone who's never tried before? I have a good modeling setup, and I just can't seem to get a wet/dry sound that speaks to me.
There’s so much to be said for a hybrid approach I reckon, but I think the experience of moving speaker and ear is still hard to emulate. That’s the thing though, mate: The thing I see with modelers is that everyone is thinking about how to emulate with modeling and endlessly playing the comparison game. not many people are thinking about how to break the limitations of these algorithms to make something entirely new, which is personally more exciting to me as a double bass player who doesn’t have much “tradition” in terms of amplified tone. The idea of modifying any parameter to almost “mod” an algorithm in the same way you change component values in an overdrive? Hell, even using arduino to create and code your own algorithms that you can break apart? Mind-bending
I haven't played through a real amp in 20+ years. These days I use software emulators and 100% of my playing is either studio work or live with in-ears. Before that, I used a Marshall JMP-1 rack-mount unit and the band I played with then owned a good-sized PA... 4 15" cabinets + 2 18" subs on each side of the stage, plus a full complement of stage monitors. Never felt like I had a problem moving air or hearing myself :-) I'd probably feel stronger about real amps in a smaller setup.
9:51 I disagree with this. Not only can you route a modeller both to the FOH console and to a speaker on stage, I think with units such as Helix you can actually route each amp to a separate output, to an individual speaker. And on top of this, while an 100W guitar amplifier is absolutely huge and very expensive, with a modeler you can plug in to a very cheap Headrush FRFR capable of 1000W RMS. Try to top that with a guitar amp. For the money you pay on a wet/dry valve stack, complete with twin cabinets capable of 2-300W you can buy yourself a wall of speakers and plug your modeller into them. The modeller wins this on flexibility, cost, and power. No contest. 11:59 So... why not get massive speakers and a Behringer 6000W amp and literally blow the roof up? Doesn't seem fair to say that the modeller cannot compare because it's through headphones.
You know what is cooler than Wet/Dry? An OBEL (on board effects loop). Jerry Garcia is really the only person who ever used one, but they are fascinating. Phred Guitars have a video explaining them, and so does Davvy from Toby & Davvy. … also replicating a studio sound for a live setting is cringe.
Have to disagree with your comment at the end, you can get that same guitar face feeling from the modeling rig through amp and cab, and still much much cheaper than an amp rig. Complete live modeling rig speakers, modeler, expression pedal at new pricing would run you a little over 3500.00 all in. An Amp rig with just the two heads, 2 cabs at new pricing you are already at a little over 5000, and that hasn't even bought you a pedalboard, any effects, any routing equipment you may need. So I would say modeling wins on all fronts. lol And this is coming from someone who owns 5 or 6 different tube amps, but my Axe FX wins every time.
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Thanks for checking out XPND!
A response so canned that I’m eating soup for a month
You're welcome
bro your playing has really improved in the past few months and i love it
that "amp in the room" feel everyone complains about not being able to achieve with modelers can easily be achieved if you go through a poweramp and a cab
While I agree, that is essentially solving the lack of “amp in the room” feel… by putting an amp in the room.
Yeah, I was surprised that wasn't mentioned. You don't have to use headphones when playing live with a modeler. You can just use the modeler as an amp and bring a poweramp/cab.
@@KDH not necessarily. you can get a stompbox sized poweramp and a cab (which you already would use in a live situation anyway even with a modeler in the form of a wedge for ex.) and run the wet/dry/wet through there
I have a line 6 helix I use for recording direct. Then I also have a seymour duncan powerstage 200 and an evh 2x12 I use live. And i mic the cab and run it hough the house speakers live and I still have a great stage sound too. Best of both worlds
@@timjenkins502 Do I spy a pun? Nice 👌
As a very lazy and not particularly patient person, the Helix lets me try out all kinds of elaborate setups.
Weirdly it was partly That Pedal Show that inspired me to get it (which ironically would horrify them), but I enjoyed their ideas, setups and tones so much I wanted a piece of that action without the time and (relative) money investment!
That intro with the Jackson was sick mate. Great video keep it up.
A lot of Boss's multi-effect pedals, I use the ME50, along with something like the DD20 have left and right outs, as well as headphone outs, making it easy to run everything wet/dry/wet. If you have a preamp before either of them, you can DI 3 signals to a PA and easy peasy, you have yourself a nice easy wet/dry/wet live sound. Assuming the sound guy at the gig you're playing isn't an eejit.
Wet/Dry/Wet was the clear winner for me just based on sound, I'm going to have to try that out sometime! To me, the real amps sounded very disorganized, like they were competing rather than working together. I wonder how one distortion or preamp pedal into two clean amps would sound? Maybe something for me to try out.
They probs sound like that because most of the rea-amp bits he did had the camera mic too & it was stupid out-of-phase lol
@@BaldPerspective Yeah and it's in an untreated room too
@@ramonw9430 I hate generic room tone, but my love of rip-ass guitar overshadows it, & I will tolerate an obnoxious room tone on a guitar vid like this, but the phase thing was unforgivable to me & literally just ruined the vid.
@@BaldPerspective both are like nails on a chalkboard to me lol
@@ramonw9430 Bad room tone is that to me for people talking, so, yes I get where you're coming from.
Man, I can repeat that opening clip so many times, suuuch an epic tone 🤘
I used to run a half-direct stereo rig. I'd get the dry from a quilter 100w head and the wet would go into the PA through a cab sim. It worked pretty well and there's the benefit that you can adjust your monitor wedges separate from the FoH, meaning you can avoid your out sound from being too wet while being able to hear the effects
Damn soon as you hit that first power chord, I knew it was gonna be still in the night. Killer riff
Bro I love watching everything you do . I have a lot of respect for you. You are always super transparent. Very important in your bussiness❤❤❤⚡️🫵🏻🤘🏻⚡️🔥🔥🔥
Your nerdiest video in a while... I’m happy.
On occasion, we all need to geek out
Your best video opening ever. Love it, mate! 👌✌️👍🏻😊
Nothing beats moving air. The interaction between strings and sound waves is a beautiful thing. I’m sure neck joint, bridge and wood choice affects sustain, but nowhere near as much as vibrating air molecules.
That's true and is significant if the listener hears that moving air. But what if you record your conventional amp and cabinet? Listeners are going to hear a recorded version of it, not the moving air sound they would hear if they were stranding in front of the amp. And what if you play live and your guitar cabinet is mic'd into the FOH? What are listeners going to hear? They're going to hear the P.A.'s reproduction of your amp and cabinet-- not the same as what YOU hear on stage standing in front of your amp. Food-for-thought.
Tone Air is real, I always have a bottle in my gig bag. ;-)
Man that helix sounded incredible. You should do a tutorial on how to creat such a sound. It was so good.
Dude I love Bach
Sounds great through youtube, sound HORRIBLE next to a real 100watt tube amp.
Love how your dream tone is a straight up 80s monster sound. Makes me smile.
What ultimately drove me to rigs than modellers was surprisingly flexibility.
Yeah, sure, boatloads more amps and effects on hand with a modeller, but do they have parallel effects loops? How constrained are they with pedal placement, or adding some off-brand pedal right here in the chain? And out of the hundreds of amps and pedals available, how many will I actually use?
While there is something to be said about the cost and ease of transport for modellers, when chasing "sound in your head", it is far easier to pursue that if someone else already defining what those sounds should be.
Interesting take, but I actually find my helix way way more flexible than any sort of real rig. There are all sorts of different routings (including parallel effects loops) that you can do, that would be extremely hard, if not impossible to make with a real amp. Inserting an off brand pedal into the chain is also as simple as pluging it in one of the 4 (!) fx loops, and just putting the send/return block literally anywhere in the signal chain.
@@w0mbatina +1 for the Helix. It can be as simple or complex as you like. I pair mine with a yamaha full range speaker for a bit of stage volume and it sounds great for rock. I generally use one amp model which is an original L6 one for all dirty (cleaning up with volume pot Van Halen style) and a jazz chorus for very clean. That's all I need with 4 snapshots and 4 stomp pedals for everything from Sultans to Slayer. I use other amp models for recording but simple is better for live.
It's a deadlock between my two favorite guitar youtubers for "best lunchtime uploader." Either its KDH or Plague Scythe Studios.
That open sounds amazing!! You can tell it is even better in the room by your face
I have a wealth of amps which get used for different tasks. Increasingly my Helix is becoming the go-to as it is much easier to set up and transport. Then again, I totally understand the fun to be had with a valve amp - I have a 100 watt Orange Rockerverb MKIII and it really does fill the room with sound - It's so powerful! However, recently I found a solution to this and for my Line 6 Helix I acquired a Laney LFR-212 800W 2X12" FRFR powered cab. If you want something that bridges the gap between modeling and valve amps that's your fella! - It's loud and really punches you with low end whilst retaining all the clarity and ease of use.
I think what I'd really like to see more of is seperate affordable tube power amps to run modelers into like the Marshall 20/20.
That’s something the market really lacks.
The Marshall range of rack mount power amps are still some of the very few you can find for a decent price.
@@NeungView theres some reactive "feel" type things with the inclusion of an output transformer.
@@NeungView Yeah solid state power amps are way more efficient heatwise. Tube power amps have worse headroom which in some contexts is good. If you're not going for that solid states are great.
Recording wet and dry gives you all the options in the world in the studio. Everybody should do this :) As for the modellers... Do you know Gary Wehrkamp from Shadow Gallery? You should. When James LaBrie made his solo album, Wehrkamp was the player he went to. Anyway, when Shadow Gallery went on their only tour, he used a small portable Line 6 Pod 2. You'd never know.
I use my amp modeller as a preamp & FX unit through the clean channel of my JCM 800 2203 & it sounds amazing.
You could talk about the pro's and con's all day the real amp's is miles better though but a very clever video, so well done KDH!
Good demo of the pros and cons for each type of system. In my situation, a Modeler is the only practical solution, plus I like playing at 2am with the sound cranked up (in my headphones). 🤘
I have an HX Stomp, and I do have a suggestion regarding tone/sound. It seems like a lot of the Modeled Amps are set up with the "57 Dynamic" mic in the Cab Block. If you're using single coils or bright sounding pickups, I suggest you switch to the 121 Ribbon or 169 Ribbon. It will sound much more like an actual/real Amp, instead of the fizzy nonsense we're all too familiar with. Another cool thing, is that you can instantly switch the Mics, etc. via Snapshots.
Another way to get a fuller, thicker more Amp-like sound on Line 6 Helix, is to use the Global EQ Controls to bump up the bass, and tame the trebles.😎
Add a very small delay to the wet amp to get that authentic wall of sound 🤘
Great video! You speak my language :) I'm old school. Love my real tube amps but running stereo live is a TON of set up, lifting, carrying... I'm in my 40's... lol I also run two 3/4 stacks! Love the tone! It's HUGE! With that being said, I do own a HELIX Floor and love that too! Great for the reasons you spoke about BUT, live, I will kill my body and ear holes over that ANYTIME lol
Great video man. Glad you liked XPND!
I've tried several rigs over the years when I was in a party band: mono, dual mono, stereo, W/D and W/D/W.
My favourite was W/D/W.
In the end I used dual mono most of the time (one amp, two cabs in serial). The second cab we mic'd up and added a touch of subtle chorus for some 'sway' and movement. I also tried it with two amps, one set full 100% delayed by various times. IIRC About 20-30ms was the sweet spot.
Anyway, loads of fun to experiment.
Your next challenge, should you choose to accept it, is a real life circular delay rig! I've never got the chance to set one up live but its supposed to be so much fun to just stand in the middle of. It's pretty easy to fake in your DAW however....
The main reason for a wet/dry rig is to preserve your tone.
For example; you like how your tube amp sounds through the speaker but if you put effects in front of or in the FX loop of the amp it alters your original tone.
To keep your tone and use effects you need to tap some of the tone you want and send it to the FX without interfering with the original tone.
So, for example - I like the sound of my valve head when the preamp tubes and the power amp tubes are driven.
If I put an FX unit in the FX loop of the amp then it's only seeing the signal from the preamp tubes before it's amplified so my original tone is now ruined.
To keep my tone I need to send the signal to the FX AFTER the power amp.
So I take the speaker out signal (with the tone I want) and use a line level device that allows the signal to continue on to the speaker (this is the 'dry side') but allows a little bit of the signal to be run off to the FX unit.
So that's my original tone going into a speaker and a bit going to the FX unit.
After the the sound goes through the FX unit it needs to be re amplified using a solid state (because valves will change the tone) amplifier that colors the tone as litt as possible then on to another speaker - this I the 'wet side'.
The end result is a very large, wide sound utilising and preserving my original tone.
That is/was the reason for wet/dry rigs.
😊
Love a well thought out comparison. Thanks.
The real amps sounded huge damn but I liked the clean helix
hails KDH!!! i run a similar wet/dry stereo set-up...a mesa mark IV (wet) paired with a EVH 50W stealth (dry)...also use the radial bigshot, what an awesome piece of gear...the mark IV is thru a mesa recto vert. 2X12, n the EVH is thru a mesa recto horizontal 2X12...tonal bliss, cheers brother!!!
actually Randy Rhoads had his speakers matching the house monitors, altec, Zack also later did the same with EV speakers, then used one whole track with effects from one head while the other was connected in series in another channel., then the house eng handled more bus channel effects like delays, etc to mix everyone.
There are so many people obsessed with having that "amp in the room" sound. Well, that's fine if the guitarist never plays his guitar outside of his bedroom or garage. It's also fine if he's playing such a small venue that the audience hears only the stage volume of the musicians' equipment. But if the guitarist records his music and/ or plays a venue large enough that the audience is going to hear his guitar amp and cabinet mic'd through a P.A., the listeners aren't going to hear that "amp in the room" sound, even if the guitarist is playing through a conventional amp and cabinet! Personally, I'd rather have the bazillions of benefits from the modeler and hear much more closely what the listeners are going to hear!
By the way, you can ALSO run a modeler rig as wet/dry. I use a Fractal modeler and am actually running it wet/dry/wet. The Fractal is designed so that it can run separate "amps" out, each to separate speaker cabinets. Bob Bradshaw also built me a rack-mount wet/dry/wet device that is designed specifically for this purpose. A modeler run as a w/d/w or even w/d sounds fantastic. Now THAT'S something to compare to a conventional guitar amp and cabinet run w/d. I mean, now we can actually compare apples to apples.
last pedal on my board is stereo chorus, so whenever i got the chance, I put left and right output each to it's own amp.
Seriously man your sound is soo good. Makes me think of Zakk Wilde on one of Ozzy album. Please give us your Helix presets, anyway we will never play like you so it won't change a thing for you.
Option #3 - using a modeler to pass a dry signal straight through to a physical amp while also sending a fully-wet amp-sim signal straight to FOH. Best of both worlds, often overlooked.
I've experimented with a psuedo wet dry wet rig by using an a/b box to split signal between a dry amp on one output and a stereo rig on the other. Sounded decent
Wow... we have very similar ideal and perfect tones! Absolutely love that intro tone and the DK2S sounds amazing!
Also the real amp set-up works better for me too. Tried digital / modelling and hated them.
I dig your playing.
I mean, if the whole point of stage volume is monitoring, why would you realistically need both signals on stage? Wouldn't have the wet dry setup going to the PA, and one of the two signals going to an FRFR on stage solve the stage volume problem without compromising on the score on weight, price, and all of those other good things we were talking about?
I use an mxr eq to split my signal between a tube amp and a Katana for wet/dry. I put a couple pedals in front of the eq, and I have an enormous amount of subtle flavor variations. It sounds fantastic. Modulation effects become very 3 dimensional, and the sound is thick and clear at the same time.
I'm not against amp modelers by any means, but I don't enjoy playing through them. There is an absolute difference in feel while playing. I'll record through a direct box, one side going into my interface completely dry, and the other side goes into an ABY signal splitter box that connects my two amps. I may keep my mic'd up amp tracks, or I might re-amp the dry signal with different settings, amps or mics, or run it through an amp modeler/sim. While actually playing I need the real amps. Afterwards it's whatever works the best for sound.
Great video sir as always in this channel.
Loving that Ornsby.
I would prefer the modeler. That's coming from a guy that still uses tube amp, etc. I am currently running a reverend kingsnake 20 / 60 1 x 12 tube amp, but I need a modeler because I'm 60 years old and tired of dragging gear around. I do love the feel and feedback of a tube amp. Tubes, rocu and tone = Good fun and quality sound. Still, modelers are the way to go. ♥️♥️🤘🤘
I can highli sugest you to try a W-D-W hybrid system, use your valve amp as a CENTER DRY and send that mic/line signal to the pod for WET L R,
I love to use the dry/wet/dry approach on my Fractal FM3 with ambient effects that ping pong between left and right channel.
Man that Jackson is beautiful!
Well done video!
that expanding pedalboard is sick. want
I'd recommend the TC mimiq doubler on top of all this. You can *literally* sound double tracked in stereo live.
Love that intro riff! In the Still of the night!! John Sykes, FTW! 😊🎸🤘
I use the Helix to do a W/D/W thing but I run out of the 1/4" jack to a live cab on stage.
And then the stereo wet fx go through and IR and go out the XLRs L&R to the PA
So I can have stereo fx in my iems and a dry mic'd sound in the center.
I can have my sound as greasy and effected as I like and the rest of the band can have it drier if they prefer.
Same for the FOH .
It can be blended to taste out front.
Pretty simple to do and only requires one amp
It may be worth noting that for your simplicity comparison, the modeler will only need to be setup once, whereas the amp needs to be setup in each instance the setting is required. So while troubleshooting a physical/amp setup may be easier, you will need to do so much more often than the modeler.
Also, could you do a comparison where you run the modeler through the same amp/speaker setup (with just 1 set) to see how you then feel about stage/live volume?
I did a wet / dry with bass a few years back (Fuzz right, clean left). Just amazing for that Hysteria (muse) sound
Great video KDH. I would love to see you compare your real amp wet/dry rig with Helix through full range amp/cab to see if it gets you grinning in the same way 🤩
I know this is more about a comparison of modelers vs. wet/dry rigs to get a "full" sound, but it was mentioned early on that it's often done to mimic that double tracking sound in recordings. While I think the wet/dry is capable of coming very close to achieving this, especially when employing chorus and delay pedals- one thing is very hard to replicate in double tracking: that sound of two guitars just being slightly off from one another. I often think of Randy Rhodes and his tendency to intentionally play each part off from one another. In some ways we would consider it a mistake as each part will naturally not match each other perfectly, but that sound that is often created just can't be replicated any other way- and it leads to a complexity and fullness that goes beyond just doubling a single guitar.
So I'm using a Helix HX Effects with a 4-cable method in a hybrid rig. Meaning the amps are analog but the effects are digital. I do agree that the effects sometimes sound a little more plasticy, that's why in the studio I use my Maxon OD-808 instead of the build in tubescreamer, but for the convenience of being able to just program and dial in any odd pedal under the sun in a 600 euro box is just unbeatable.
Is it the same as having 28 pedals to stomp on? No.
Is it convenient for an up and coming band that literally just started out this year? Yes
Hey there! Good video. I saw that you were playing an Ormsby Futura 6,., how does it play. I was checking that same one out. It looks sweet. Best wishes
Hi Bill,
You can find my full review of the Futura here ruclips.net/video/Rpt9uQ8Wh6A/видео.html
So, in order to get that Def Leppard sounds, I need a wet/dry/wet configuration. Understood.
The last band I was in was only bass, drums, and vocals. In the studio, I tracked 3-4 bass tracks. To compensate for this in live settings I used 2 amps, Ampeg SVTII, and Sovtek Mig 60, a TS9DX, and a Rat. I ran this rig quite loud, and nobody ever said there was anything missing.
...or if they did you couldn't hear them...
Got a Marshall 8100 for £80, Laney VC30 (was a gift but cost about £100 used) and a 6260 I found by a skip.
Run one through a Marshall 1960a with v30s I got for £25+VAT at an auction and a 2x12 with greens I got for £60 for my cleans.
Two notes CAB M for power amp SIM and IR loading as well as having a pass through, line or and XLR and headphone out which covers the sound guy and monitoring
All that comes to about 1/4 the price of a kemper...
Oddly enough, I preferred the Helix tones more. I think that has a lot to do the amp choices. I’ve not heard a Victory amp that has really peaked my interest. Regardless, Wet/Dry rigs are always fun!
NGL that ad in the middle was a little bit cringe. like 100% respect the hustle, you should def take ad spots if it helps you do what you want to do, its just a little weird when theres not a clear separation between the actual content and the brand obligation.
Great video but I’m still wondering…..if you wipe your wet rig with a paper towel, does it become a dry rig?
I just can´t be arsed to lug a 100 Watt Amp and a pedalboard around. A Helix Stomp + Palmer Macht Poweramp + Midi Footswitch Controller is just so much more convenient and sounds just as good.
You want a big tone? Run wet/dry with two different amps. I'm running a Peavey XXX dry on a V30/GB 2x12 with a wet Orange Super Crush 100 on a V30/GB 2x12, and they both share a Marshal 1960 V30/GB loaded in an X pattern. Massive.
i have no problem getting an amp in the room sound using IRs instead of the cab simulations.
Analog gear, in my opinon is loud and personal, i mean you dial the tone to taste and your hands are doing the playing. You get your own sound...your tone from the bones and skin...i donno men...analog is expensive but sooooo cool to hear and play...lol this came from a digital team lover xD
Was that Velvet Rope by Santa Cruz??? :P amazing tones btw
Nothing beats that pants flapping volume of a real guitar amp going through guitar speakers in a guitar cabinet. You look forward to those loud gigs just so you can do it.
I really liked how the Helix sounded better on my phone that is..But I know you can't replace the air vibrations you feel from an actual amp
True, but those listening to you play might hear a recording of your playing, which will not capture the air vibrations. Or if you're playing on stage, unless you're playing in a small room where the listeners are hearing only the stage volume, your cab will be mic'd through a P.A. The P.A. will not reproduce the air vibrations you feel when listening to your guitar amp and cab directly.
@@stevedrake360 Just from a context of playing or jamming in a room.
@@50StichesSteel You bet. In that context you might prefer a real amp and cab.
The riff at 6.29 sounds like Velvet Rope by Santa cruz is it not?
It is
I liked the one that you used the blue guitar on lol
Once you go stereo tube amps you don’t go back… And furthermore once you go wet dry …..well, there’s definitely no turning back… Keep on rocking…..
Ahhh, seeing that Boss CE-3 makes me highly regret selling mine a few years back. It's the only way you can truly get that Andy Summers tone and play Message In a Bottle and impress all the girls!
I agree with you on the sound from the traditional amps. IMHO that could be mostly overcome with the right custom "Power Amp" to boost the sound. it seems to me the modeler is just trying too hard to make up for the punch in the standard amp. Maybe a lack of headroom? Having grown up in the era of 1000 W home entertainment systems clarity, very low noise floor and an almost spiritual like presence would just soak into your soul. These were seldom played above 50 W or so but like I said it just saturated the room with sound.
Awesome.. But how do you change channels on both kraken's live.. Say clean to distortion?
I don’t, I just use channel 1 on both.
It is possible to do though. You can make a simple switch box with two inputs for the channel selection
I think most of it is a case by case basis. The amp drive is better than the helix drive imo but the cleans in helix are gorgeous. I'd lean towards a different setup either way but I think I'd personally go for a good modeler and time learning ins and outs of that setups before confidently going for it in love scenario
Bonamassa has like 5 amps live I think. So that's like wet/dry/wet/dry/wet. Now that's dank.
Does the board bag also expand? ;)
For home and recording purpose, modeller. Live two or three amps. Got it
3 way rig for me thank you
How would you go about approaching a wet/dry rig for someone who's never tried before? I have a good modeling setup, and I just can't seem to get a wet/dry sound that speaks to me.
The intro is my dad after trying my stereo rig for the first time 😂😂😂😂😂
Your talking tone reminds me so much of Dr Grande
if i choose amp that i like in the modern area , i prefer using amp 1 iridium or mercury with blubox or other ir , victory amp pedal
There’s so much to be said for a hybrid approach I reckon, but I think the experience of moving speaker and ear is still hard to emulate. That’s the thing though, mate: The thing I see with modelers is that everyone is thinking about how to emulate with modeling and endlessly playing the comparison game. not many people are thinking about how to break the limitations of these algorithms to make something entirely new, which is personally more exciting to me as a double bass player who doesn’t have much “tradition” in terms of amplified tone.
The idea of modifying any parameter to almost “mod” an algorithm in the same way you change component values in an overdrive? Hell, even using arduino to create and code your own algorithms that you can break apart? Mind-bending
I haven't played through a real amp in 20+ years. These days I use software emulators and 100% of my playing is either studio work or live with in-ears. Before that, I used a Marshall JMP-1 rack-mount unit and the band I played with then owned a good-sized PA... 4 15" cabinets + 2 18" subs on each side of the stage, plus a full complement of stage monitors. Never felt like I had a problem moving air or hearing myself :-) I'd probably feel stronger about real amps in a smaller setup.
Your analysis is fine, but you went automatically to valve amps, did you consider if your running this with that pedal amp you demoed a while back?
Watch his Helix video ;)
9:51 I disagree with this. Not only can you route a modeller both to the FOH console and to a speaker on stage, I think with units such as Helix you can actually route each amp to a separate output, to an individual speaker. And on top of this, while an 100W guitar amplifier is absolutely huge and very expensive, with a modeler you can plug in to a very cheap Headrush FRFR capable of 1000W RMS. Try to top that with a guitar amp. For the money you pay on a wet/dry valve stack, complete with twin cabinets capable of 2-300W you can buy yourself a wall of speakers and plug your modeller into them. The modeller wins this on flexibility, cost, and power. No contest.
11:59 So... why not get massive speakers and a Behringer 6000W amp and literally blow the roof up? Doesn't seem fair to say that the modeller cannot compare because it's through headphones.
ABY boxes are fun sometimes
I’m listening on a mono phone output, anyway very informative
Thx man!✊🏾
He do be pogging in the intro tho 😳
😮😮😮
Camera mic made this a unfair comparison. Should of used a high end room mic, and the close mics. 2 cents!
Good tone > everything else in life
Warning once you go wet/dry you don’t go back! Best sounds I’ve ever made period
You know what is cooler than Wet/Dry? An OBEL (on board effects loop).
Jerry Garcia is really the only person who ever used one, but they are fascinating. Phred Guitars have a video explaining them, and so does Davvy from Toby & Davvy.
… also replicating a studio sound for a live setting is cringe.
@leonkennedy74 I know they don’t, but it’s a similar idea.
Also OBEL combined with a wet/dry is possible too 😍
Fucking love your content bro
what would a Dry Wet Dry sound like?
Have to disagree with your comment at the end, you can get that same guitar face feeling from the modeling rig through amp and cab, and still much much cheaper than an amp rig.
Complete live modeling rig speakers, modeler, expression pedal at new pricing would run you a little over 3500.00 all in. An Amp rig with just the two heads, 2 cabs at new pricing you are already at a little over 5000, and that hasn't even bought you a pedalboard, any effects, any routing equipment you may need. So I would say modeling wins on all fronts. lol
And this is coming from someone who owns 5 or 6 different tube amps, but my Axe FX wins every time.