Informative and entertaining as always mate. I'll stop being stroppy with mine because "they're in the way!" and actually make use of the benefit. Hope you had a great Christmas with the new member of the family!
Cheers Nick. I've removed my actual shifters and brakes altogether as I've accepted the bike on the trainer will never meet it's rear wheel again 😅 We've had a great Xmas, no pressure with a baby who has no idea what xmas is, he gets more excited about seeing his toes than the mountain of presents he got from the family 😂 I hope you had a good xmas with Rhiannon and the fam 😊
When steering is working, i use them for the following... 1. To keep up with a group, as there are times when I get gapped due to increase in pace, getting tired or elevation change. 2. To provide a better draft for the group behind. I try to be a team player during rides and provide the best draft to others. I often will call out prior to a sprint that i will lead out starting at 1k before the sprint. 3. Dropping a wheel sucker... while I do not typically do this, if I find that one particular rider never helps with pacemaking, but keeps asking to up the tempo, then I try to drop them.
I did a TT race last year soon after I got the zwift plays. The ITT was the Going Coastal route. 18.7 km. I steered on every corner and by the end I had ridden 700 meters less than my competitors. So over that short time and the twisty roads it really does add up!
Good video! I HATE that they introduced steering, but I bought the Play controllers to get virtual shifting (which I love). - Zwift WANTS players without steering to have a natural disadvantage - otherwise people would not buy the controllers. Some of the most obvious gaps may be reduced, but don't expect it to go away :-) - Had Zwift not introduced braking, maybe the ergonomics of the controllers would have been ok, but when I occationally try to use steering it is super fiddly and I often brake by accident. (I have also experienced that one of my controllers gets stuck constantly turning no matter what I do). Hopefully, Zwift will rethink the ergonomics and introduce better controllers.
I use the steering. On a course like RGV with the intestins, a breakaway can be successful using steering. Also, on the finish for Tempus Fugit, I've been beat at the line because the winner had steering and took the final right-hand turn on the inside. Definitely have been able ro use it attacking as a team on a ZRacing event. Everyone went wide left, and sprinted up the punchy climb, abd no one was able to follow our wheels. There are definite ways to use it beneficially.
This comment for the algorithm… ;) Annndddd, do love the steering chat.., in the month my steering worked (still broken) I did some very unscientific studies, round the volcano circuit. And defo big savings to be made… Be good to hear more thoughts, but Ethan’s sleep take priority 😍👍
I saw on the Muckle Yin course 500 meters difference between steering and non steering. I had a bit of trouble getting mine set up correctly. They were also really difficult to press the paddles until I worked them in. They are a game changer for racing for me. TTT's don't work as well as you might think. I'm not sure why but riders get caught out of the pace line and the steering doesn't have the fine tuning needed to nudge back into line. We have turned it off for the time being for TTT.
Oh yeah Muckle Yin would be a great course! I wonder how good the production tolerance is? Ifound the paddles pretty granular and can slowly move across a lane. But I'm not sure I'll like the di2 like shifters when Elite release the virtual gear function for my trainer, they feel a little dead. Have you tried a TTT since they updated the auto follow for steering? I'll have to try that out in the new year after FRR
They’re definitely worth it for…long solo breakaways. Unheard of for me until the advent of steering. The race I did with you for instance, Crit City is awesome for it. A few races I’ve done on Rolling Highlands, including with @Roy. It looks as though PD5 will negate another advantage, currently you can barge back into the draft, but not in group rides.
@ one other way to use steering is when descending in supertuck. If a rider is gaining on you, steer in front of him and his avatar will sit up. Then steer away while you are still in supertuck
Funny thing is that for Festive 500 I tried to NOT cut corners to get more distance. But in the end I barely got any extra distance compared to the riders without steering
I've definitely noticed the distance savings on a variety of courses - also on the long sweeping curves on the 2nd half of The Grade for instance. That's useful in a breakaway situation or on slower climbs where there isn't much draft to be had. But for me the real value in the Plays is draft positioning. With PD5, default non-Play behavior is better as you noted. When I first got the Plays, I noted this follow behavior even when I wasn't steering . . . and my first thought was, "This is just code . . .and it should be default behavior for everyone". So, I am glad that this change is happening as part of PD5 -- it will make for a more fair and equitable experience for those that do not have the extra hardware. That said, Zwift Plays are still superior to the new PD5 steering behavior. PD5 default steering and pack positioning is better but still a bit of a mess at times. I've tried both behaviors since PD5 came out (riding with my Plays enabled and riding with them turned off) just to see how it works and I am far more able to keep myself in an optimal position manually using the Plays than trying to rely on PD5 to put me in a good place. There were times when the Plays were turned off that I found myself getting pushed around and often out of the draft in packs. And nothing to do but to try and feather my power and hope PD5 would eventually slot me back in somewhere . . . all the while nose in the wind. For me, the Plays are not about steering others out of my draft, they are about keeping myself better positioned within the draft. There are still a good deal of watts savings to be had if you stay attentive to your position and manually adjust with the Plays (even with PD5). I'm doing my annual go up the Alpe in fewer minutes than I am old attempt tomorrow, but I may do a video this weekend in a group ride showing PD5 behavior vs Play behavior and positioning with Sauce turned on so the watts gained and lost are evident. It is a notably different experience.
Yes i was doing a coco ride this morning and you are right, I could ease up before corners then make ground easily with ideal line. Especially right hand turns in Watopia I think
Don't we all pay for speed, one way or the other? When I first started Zwifting I was on my road bike on a wheel on drum smart trainer. I was getting crushed on the hills when my wheel would slip. So, I bought a direct drive trainer...instantly got faster for about a grand $$$. Then I took my $700 road bike off the trained and put my $3000 TT bike on it (I'm a triathlete). I got even faster, mostly because I went from a 170mm crank arm to a 165mm (now I can spin high cadence in my comfort zone). The TT bike geometry saves my quads so now I can take advantage of the larger big ring which went from 50 on the road bike to 53 on the TT. Max sprint power has gone from about 1300w to just shy of 1600w and now I'm considering putting a 55 on it. One of my surprising changes that greatly benefitted me cost me about $40! It was a new cassette. I changed out the standard one to a 11-25. That gave me a 16-tooth gear. That got rid of the jump from 15 to 17 on my old cassette. That was a game changer for me. It gave me more mid-range power while saving my legs. Now my end of race sprint is crazy!!! Oh, let's not ignore the computer. I started with a little minicomputer. It worked but graphics were crap. So, I moved to my little tablet, better graphics but still slow and recording was a nightmare. So, I bought a gaming laptop...wow, totally changed the experience and I'm sure probably made me faster. LOL. But no, I don't have Zwift Play...it's not made for TT bars. And I've adapted to racing people with them as long as I race with good fitness, I can overcome their advantage! Sorry for all the blabbing, you did a great job with your analysis!
Given that having the fastest frames and wheels costs time, that actually costs money too... so I dunno, seems more economical than leveling up to those that have been on Zwift for many years... let's not forget the farcical suspension because of elevation farming for a Tron way back when... ;-)
I also love my Plays, and one thing I find useful is when I'm trying to bridge back into a group, cutting the corner can help close the gap faster. Most annoying part of the Plays is when I can't use them! I'm perhaps also one of the few who actively uses braking too...
@@jesikatyes braking is actually something I miss now that they have removed it in pairing screen. You and I are the only ones who like the feature I suspect 😂
I have done some racing on it when it was Indievelo. I bought the votros gaming controllers and did a video. I even hosted some events and did the tour event that it had. I want to get into it but being in Australia, there is almost never a race with humans in it that I can join at a reasonable hour.
I've almost never used steering in a race, almost every ladder race i've been in has had an agreement to turn it off. It has a weird perception from some that even when the steering is not used Zwift prioritises play users into the draft and knocks non-play users out...
It's more that non-steering users don't get pulled across into the steering group's draft, but I believe Zwift have, or are trying to, fix this. None of the behaviour is specific to the Plays (steering is the same for plays, sterzo, kickr bike).
I like the steering as i feel it adds an extra feature to play with. I often see my total distance is ~ 200m less in a typical zRacing monthly league race, but i only cut corners where it won't move me out of the draft, i.e. when dropped and riding solo or the bunch is big enough so that it is across the road. It does feel a little bit like cheating and i was lucky to have a compatible trainer, but i need all the help i can get!
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Informative and entertaining as always mate. I'll stop being stroppy with mine because "they're in the way!" and actually make use of the benefit. Hope you had a great Christmas with the new member of the family!
Cheers Nick. I've removed my actual shifters and brakes altogether as I've accepted the bike on the trainer will never meet it's rear wheel again 😅
We've had a great Xmas, no pressure with a baby who has no idea what xmas is, he gets more excited about seeing his toes than the mountain of presents he got from the family 😂 I hope you had a good xmas with Rhiannon and the fam 😊
When steering is working, i use them for the following... 1. To keep up with a group, as there are times when I get gapped due to increase in pace, getting tired or elevation change. 2. To provide a better draft for the group behind. I try to be a team player during rides and provide the best draft to others. I often will call out prior to a sprint that i will lead out starting at 1k before the sprint. 3. Dropping a wheel sucker... while I do not typically do this, if I find that one particular rider never helps with pacemaking, but keeps asking to up the tempo, then I try to drop them.
I did a TT race last year soon after I got the zwift plays.
The ITT was the Going Coastal route. 18.7 km. I steered on every corner and by the end I had ridden 700 meters less than my competitors. So over that short time and the twisty roads it really does add up!
700m! That's definitely worth it 😂
Good video!
I HATE that they introduced steering, but I bought the Play controllers to get virtual shifting (which I love).
- Zwift WANTS players without steering to have a natural disadvantage - otherwise people would not buy the controllers. Some of the most obvious gaps may be reduced, but don't expect it to go away :-)
- Had Zwift not introduced braking, maybe the ergonomics of the controllers would have been ok, but when I occationally try to use steering it is super fiddly and I often brake by accident. (I have also experienced that one of my controllers gets stuck constantly turning no matter what I do). Hopefully, Zwift will rethink the ergonomics and introduce better controllers.
I use the steering. On a course like RGV with the intestins, a breakaway can be successful using steering. Also, on the finish for Tempus Fugit, I've been beat at the line because the winner had steering and took the final right-hand turn on the inside. Definitely have been able ro use it attacking as a team on a ZRacing event. Everyone went wide left, and sprinted up the punchy climb, abd no one was able to follow our wheels. There are definite ways to use it beneficially.
This comment for the algorithm… ;)
Annndddd, do love the steering chat.., in the month my steering worked (still broken) I did some very unscientific studies, round the volcano circuit. And defo big savings to be made…
Be good to hear more thoughts, but Ethan’s sleep take priority 😍👍
1 month? I hope mine last longer that! 😅
I saw on the Muckle Yin course 500 meters difference between steering and non steering. I had a bit of trouble getting mine set up correctly. They were also really difficult to press the paddles until I worked them in. They are a game changer for racing for me. TTT's don't work as well as you might think. I'm not sure why but riders get caught out of the pace line and the steering doesn't have the fine tuning needed to nudge back into line. We have turned it off for the time being for TTT.
Oh yeah Muckle Yin would be a great course! I wonder how good the production tolerance is? Ifound the paddles pretty granular and can slowly move across a lane.
But I'm not sure I'll like the di2 like shifters when Elite release the virtual gear function for my trainer, they feel a little dead.
Have you tried a TTT since they updated the auto follow for steering? I'll have to try that out in the new year after FRR
They’re definitely worth it for…long solo breakaways. Unheard of for me until the advent of steering. The race I did with you for instance, Crit City is awesome for it. A few races I’ve done on Rolling Highlands, including with @Roy. It looks as though PD5 will negate another advantage, currently you can barge back into the draft, but not in group rides.
@ one other way to use steering is when descending in supertuck. If a rider is gaining on you, steer in front of him and his avatar will sit up. Then steer away while you are still in supertuck
Funny thing is that for Festive 500 I tried to NOT cut corners to get more distance. But in the end I barely got any extra distance compared to the riders without steering
😂 now that was big brain of you.
How small was the extra distance?
not even 100m in a 50km event. Didnt do it every corner but did it at the 180 corners in london and a few 90 degree ones
@@mickboekhoff we should setup a maximum distance over a course challenge 😆
I've definitely noticed the distance savings on a variety of courses - also on the long sweeping curves on the 2nd half of The Grade for instance. That's useful in a breakaway situation or on slower climbs where there isn't much draft to be had. But for me the real value in the Plays is draft positioning. With PD5, default non-Play behavior is better as you noted. When I first got the Plays, I noted this follow behavior even when I wasn't steering . . . and my first thought was, "This is just code . . .and it should be default behavior for everyone". So, I am glad that this change is happening as part of PD5 -- it will make for a more fair and equitable experience for those that do not have the extra hardware.
That said, Zwift Plays are still superior to the new PD5 steering behavior. PD5 default steering and pack positioning is better but still a bit of a mess at times. I've tried both behaviors since PD5 came out (riding with my Plays enabled and riding with them turned off) just to see how it works and I am far more able to keep myself in an optimal position manually using the Plays than trying to rely on PD5 to put me in a good place. There were times when the Plays were turned off that I found myself getting pushed around and often out of the draft in packs. And nothing to do but to try and feather my power and hope PD5 would eventually slot me back in somewhere . . . all the while nose in the wind. For me, the Plays are not about steering others out of my draft, they are about keeping myself better positioned within the draft. There are still a good deal of watts savings to be had if you stay attentive to your position and manually adjust with the Plays (even with PD5).
I'm doing my annual go up the Alpe in fewer minutes than I am old attempt tomorrow, but I may do a video this weekend in a group ride showing PD5 behavior vs Play behavior and positioning with Sauce turned on so the watts gained and lost are evident. It is a notably different experience.
Yes i was doing a coco ride this morning and you are right, I could ease up before corners then make ground easily with ideal line. Especially right hand turns in Watopia I think
Is that why I lose draft when drafting a steering racer... didn't know that
Don't we all pay for speed, one way or the other? When I first started Zwifting I was on my road bike on a wheel on drum smart trainer. I was getting crushed on the hills when my wheel would slip. So, I bought a direct drive trainer...instantly got faster for about a grand $$$. Then I took my $700 road bike off the trained and put my $3000 TT bike on it (I'm a triathlete). I got even faster, mostly because I went from a 170mm crank arm to a 165mm (now I can spin high cadence in my comfort zone). The TT bike geometry saves my quads so now I can take advantage of the larger big ring which went from 50 on the road bike to 53 on the TT. Max sprint power has gone from about 1300w to just shy of 1600w and now I'm considering putting a 55 on it. One of my surprising changes that greatly benefitted me cost me about $40! It was a new cassette. I changed out the standard one to a 11-25. That gave me a 16-tooth gear. That got rid of the jump from 15 to 17 on my old cassette. That was a game changer for me. It gave me more mid-range power while saving my legs. Now my end of race sprint is crazy!!! Oh, let's not ignore the computer. I started with a little minicomputer. It worked but graphics were crap. So, I moved to my little tablet, better graphics but still slow and recording was a nightmare. So, I bought a gaming laptop...wow, totally changed the experience and I'm sure probably made me faster. LOL. But no, I don't have Zwift Play...it's not made for TT bars. And I've adapted to racing people with them as long as I race with good fitness, I can overcome their advantage! Sorry for all the blabbing, you did a great job with your analysis!
I don't want to make a video reminding me of the total cost of zwift setups 😅
@@titaniumben9923 True...but I have to admit, it has taken my training to a new level!
Given that having the fastest frames and wheels costs time, that actually costs money too... so I dunno, seems more economical than leveling up to those that have been on Zwift for many years... let's not forget the farcical suspension because of elevation farming for a Tron way back when... ;-)
I also love my Plays, and one thing I find useful is when I'm trying to bridge back into a group, cutting the corner can help close the gap faster. Most annoying part of the Plays is when I can't use them! I'm perhaps also one of the few who actively uses braking too...
@@jesikatyes braking is actually something I miss now that they have removed it in pairing screen. You and I are the only ones who like the feature I suspect 😂
Have you tried racing on TrainingPeaks virtual yet?
I have done some racing on it when it was Indievelo. I bought the votros gaming controllers and did a video. I even hosted some events and did the tour event that it had. I want to get into it but being in Australia, there is almost never a race with humans in it that I can join at a reasonable hour.
@ there are more and more all the time 😊
I've almost never used steering in a race, almost every ladder race i've been in has had an agreement to turn it off. It has a weird perception from some that even when the steering is not used Zwift prioritises play users into the draft and knocks non-play users out...
It's more that non-steering users don't get pulled across into the steering group's draft, but I believe Zwift have, or are trying to, fix this. None of the behaviour is specific to the Plays (steering is the same for plays, sterzo, kickr bike).
I've actually got a video uploading showing the new pack dynamics effect on steering vs non steering
I like the steering as i feel it adds an extra feature to play with. I often see my total distance is ~ 200m less in a typical zRacing monthly league race, but i only cut corners where it won't move me out of the draft, i.e. when dropped and riding solo or the bunch is big enough so that it is across the road. It does feel a little bit like cheating and i was lucky to have a compatible trainer, but i need all the help i can get!
Interesting 🧐 However, my “intensive scientific studies” have led to the conclusion that, I am crap with steering, I am crap without steering 😂
😂 it's one reason I don't do much studying
I gotta be the only one using a Sterzo 🙃
Yeah but you've always been unique and stylish Erik!