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Why Super Saiyan Is FAR Stronger Than People Think | Dragon Ball Z / Super
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- In this video, I go over the iconic Super Saiyan transformation and how strong it makes a Saiyan exactly, and why it's far stronger than people and their communities think it is! What is the exact multiplier for Super Saiyan? How strong does it make characters like Goku really?
The video will also go over, Super Saiyan Grade 2 Vegeta, Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks, and Super Saiyan Grade 4 / 5 Gohan and so forth! Enjoy this full breakdown on Super Saiyan and how the Saiyans evolved vs Cell and in Dragon Ball Super!
[ Full Analysis on Dragon Ball / Z / Super and their guides, manga, and anime concerning Super Saiyan ]
Please leave a like and subscribe if you enjoyed, a share for something like this is super important so consider!
A Super Saiyan 4 (Dragonball GT) follow up video is coming soon!
Super Saiyan 4 follow up coming soon, these sets of videos are gonna change the community a lot and I hope you all enjoy.
So to touch up on a few questions people have, I thought I'd answer here:
1. Q. "How is MSSJ that strong if SSJ2 is only 100x SSJ?"
A. SSJ2 Was never stated 100x, it was just stated 2x SSJ1, which would include SSJ1 Grade 4 as it is SSJ1.
2. Q. "How is MSSJ that strong if Gowasu and Zamasu said SSJ2 is tens of times Stronger?"
A. 'Tens of Times' Can mean hundreds to thousands of times in Dragon Ball, this is the same terminology used for Kefla after Potara fusing and after she slaps SSJG Goku and for Fusion as well even though he'd be hundreds to thousands of times stronger than Base Caulifla, it's just a vague way to say someone gets stronger without directly answering by how much, ESPECIALLY in Jap.
3. Q. "To destroy a Solar System you only need to destroy a Star."
A. While this CAN be true, it's missing the point, the point was to debunk that Goku could only be 10x Planet Level, also to be noted, it was stated in El Legendario that Cell would destroy EVERYTHING in the Solar System or obliterate it, not just the Sun, the energy needed for this would be thousands of times that needed for Star busting due to the massive size of the Solar System.
4. Q. "Why El Legendario Manga, is it even official?"
A. Yes, it is official and licensed by the same folks at Shuiesha that licensed the Daizenshuu, it's Spanish only, but still official and doesn't contradict ANY source material, therefore I found it valid, I even said if you didn't agree with it, you don't have to, it doesn't change the point made in the video.
5. Q. "This calculation is based off the assumption that Goku's base was around Vegeta's"
A. Not necessarily, this doesn't change the matter of the fact when concerning that MSSJ Goku's form was stated to be a level Vegeta could not reach without having it directly and that MSSJ by default needs to be the most powerful state because Grade 2 Still raises both Power and Speed, therefore not using it against an opponent stronger than yourself simply due to "energy management" is pretty ridiculous considering that Goku uses Kaioken Blue, SSJ2, SSJ3 and so forth later on which are massive energy draining power ups. It should also be noted that the point of the video, as I stated, was not for me to grandstand an exact multiplier, it was to assert that MSSJ is far stronger than SSJ, which it is.
6. Q. "The Super Exciting Guide says SSJ is a 50x multiplier, what's up with that?"
A. The SEG only refers to grade 1 Super Super Saiyan as the entire section on SSJ1 Goku is dedicated to him on Namek transforming vs Frieza, the appearance also makes this common sense regardless.
SethTheProgrammer please do something on Boku no Hero
>1 dislike
Insert angry noise
SethTheProgrammer I don’t know what pedestal you think you’re on but okay
SethTheProgrammer is ss4 stronger than super sayians blue and what do you think is the multiplier for mui
SethTheProgrammer great video I wonder if I can turn Super Saiyan in real life that will be awesome
Super sayian wouldn't exist if the man behind the pen didn't think that the black hair was wasting his ink.
Who Toriyama
@@ziggibear1920 yes. He got tired of coloring in ssj hair. And it was less work.
Saiyans Great that is kinda proving the point of the beginning of the video, he did not actually do it for that reason, specifically at least, in the interview he says it jokingly
False. He was searching for a way to represent the transformation when one of his assistants told him it could be nice if they didm't have to ink all the hair. That's what happened
True... Wasn't it supposed to originally look like much like how False Super Saiyan looks in the Lord Slug movie? That's actually kind of tough to portray a power increase in a manga I would think. Did it ever appear in the manga? And also, do other characters all have energy auras when powered up? Otherwise, how the hell would you ever differentiate..? It was a good move I think.
Tremendous work!
Geekdom101 love you daddy
Geekdom101 dragon ball is life
Geekdom101 seth is a better youtuber than geekdom. Its like goku n vegeta. At least geekdom respects goku
Hi
Gu Woop thats an okay Opinions
Nah Super Saiyan is when you feel the tingly feeling in your back
Devin Drasad super Saiyan god Is achieved when 5 pure hearted saiyans scratch another pure hearted saiyan’s back
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is when your back is scratched.
Super ruined super sayajin and made it a joke
No, god, please, no. NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
This makes me slightly miffed
For anyone confused:
Grade 2=Ascended SS
Grade 3=Ultra SS
Grade 4=Mastered SS
Jarule Branson ☺️
Certainly just cleared it up for a few thousand people who follow nomenclature and not grades lol.
and grade 2 and 3 is the buff versions?
Svet the Saiyan Grade 5 = SS2
Grade 2 =super vegeta
Grade 3 =super trunks
Why Seth the Programer is FAR stronger than people think
I was saying this for yeeeeears. Since Cell saga, SSJ1 has become at least around 500 times base, not 50 times.
TK The Beyonder no one asked tbh
Archie Super Sonic vs Marvel, DC, and Dragon Ball.
Say far more accurate
Blackarot69 😂😂😂 facts
Uhhhhhh can I get a change in the community?
Daddy Chuck daddy Seth. Change my community up fam.
You have been a pain for far to long,
now you suffer the consequences.
Zucc My Cucc
Community machine broke
No
I know this is super old, but holy hell you’re right on with this One. I completely forgot that there were Other Sub-Stages within the SSJ1 Class.
Yeah, he's actually pretty wrong here. Watch Carthus debunk
Paul Davidson he didn’t state a multiplier he just says the mastered ssj form is a lot more than a 50x which he’s right
@@kingdragongamer2648 no thats wrong too, what carthu's debunk
@@liammilk5802 carthu debated seth and lost
@@XIX965 where can i watch?
Anime Creator: "Oh you think ultra instinct is the limit, you also think ultra instinct 2, 3, and 4 is the limit... there is another..."
BanyMany ultra instinct while kaioken x 20 and super saiayn blue
@@xaviermuise light blue hair and light purple aura
@@xaviermuise Super Ultra Kaiostinct x20
I mean anyone can use UI
super saiyan violet and super saiyan ultra violet: hello there
Why Seth’s uploads are FAR later than you thought( WITH PROOF) (NOT CLICKBAIT)
Brandon Thompson Oh you forgot to comment (Prank Gone Wrong) ( GONE SEXUAL)
Fictional Fan “TORIYAMA APPROVED”
WITH MESSAGES
(SOCIAL EXPERIMENT) (ALMOST DIED) (ACTUALLY LITERALLY 100% DIED)
lol xD
Great video. Also have to say that this is extremely well-edited. Your videos have been getting a visual quality boost lately. Awesome job.
Kuro The Artist His videos are going Super saiyan
Ayeee it’s Kuro
Like ur videos man
10:42 and Seth would go on to never use the ssj 500 - 1000x multiplier ever again
Cuz this was one of his last DB videos before he started doing Naruto
Plus he wasnt talking about this in his DB videos after this one
MSsj is still a 500x
SR Nova yes you’re right, mastered super Saiyan gohan lost to cell but ssj2 gohan rekt cell and ssj2 is a 100x multiplier yes you’re so right mastered ssj is stronger than ssj2 and ssj3
@@kingdragongamer2648 No, SSJ2 is a two times multiplier on MSSJ. Seth thinks that SSJ1 is a 50x when first obtained, and that Mastered SSJ1 is a different form that Goku and Gohan got that is a 500x multiplier, which would change SSJ2 to a 1000x multiplier and SSJ3 to a 4000x multiplier. So it would make sense, especially since there is no way ASSJ Vegeta would be that much weaker than MSSJ Goku if all Goku was using was a normal 50x multiplier with SSJ1 considering Goku's base form couldn't realistically get that much stronger than Vegeta with a better form.
@@kingdragongamer2648
That's a strawman
@@theonethatgotaway3475 Dante's argument really doesn't hold up tho, the notion that base Goku couldn't have made such gains and that ssj therefore has to be more than 50x isn't based on anything. No reason to believe that
farmer with shotgun vs master ui goku
Dude... that's not even a contest. The farmer would blow even Zeno out of the water by just thought alone.
Come on don't start a flame war with the gokutards farmer with a shotgun would win without his shotgun
That is very true. The farmer would beat existence itself, concepts, everything. By giving him the shotgun, it's like Infinity^Infinity^Infinity.
Farmer with Shotgun solos any Dragonball character in any story.
The farmer could cream Zeno with a pea shooter
Can't wait for SSJ 4.
I've been waiting for such a debunk for years, you bringed me that satisfaction.
Diatro pause
No don't go to the fake news ssj4
LegendaryVegeta why disrespect ssj4? Its literally the best designed forn
LegendaryVegeta super saiyan god sucks
DigiMation Entertainment nah that would be ultra instinct or ssb kaioken × 20
Death Note behind anyones monologue makes it 10x smarter automatically.
LMAO was looking for this comment
Wait the minute. Death note cant kill saiyan because saiyan not human and different universe
@@Mirhaz300 this is a very common misconception that you won't see corrected in any RUclips videos. The death note uses the word "nengin" which translated to "human being." That isn't exactly what it means though... anytime you see it in manga nengin means "anyone who is not a God" or "anyone who is not imortal." The easiest way to prove this is to look at the Future Trunks arc in Dragon Ball Super. Zamasu consistently refers to everyone across every universe who is not a God as nengin and he calls Goku and Vegeta nengin dozens or even hundreds of times. He also uses nengin to refer to various forms of alien mortals. There are countless other examples of this in various anime, Zamasu in DBS is just the most appropriate for this video as a high percentage of readers have seen DBS. The Death Note says it only works on nengin because they want the reader to specifically know it will not work on a shinigami aka a practically imortal God of Death. This is why Ryuk says Light can write his name in the book and nothing will happen... because he is a God.
@@travelreview5962 ty for information
@@Mirhaz300 np. Just one of those things I haven't seen a big RUclipsr or other source of information pick up on yet. 👍
i totally adore your community focus. youre not about "im right", your about spreading knowledge to evolve the discussion and bring the community up to speed. i dont even know if youre 100% right or not but your mentality is golden and if someones able to disprove you i'd love to see them put in this much effort.
love from australia
Have you ever thought that Toriyama might not have been the most consistent writer?
You’re right on the money lol. This video is nothing but poor attempts to find logical reasons for the inconsistency of Toriyama’s writing.
It was stated that Toriyama himself forgot that super saiyan 2 and super saiyan 3 existed at some point.
@@Anonimowany1 well, he thought 3 was 2. He forgot that ssj2 was ssj2 and thought ssj3 was ssj2.
@@Predated2 Yeah basically he forgot a whole Frieza and Cell saga. No problem forgetting about 200 episodes for Toriyama. Imagine doing something for 5-10 years and then you forget what you actually did, lol...
@@Anonimowany1 Well, he remembers key moments in the series, but since the ssj3 moment wasnt really a key moment in the series, while ssj2 was. But the design of ssj3 is a lot memorable, its quite easy to see how he thought that ssj3 was ssj2.
As for forgetting, he does it kinda on purpose. He knows his memory isnt the best, which lets him come up with new ideas. Which is noticable in the story. I mean, he even forgot Launch existed because Launch wasnt really a key figure in the King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr saga.
This is a brilliant video. Really enjoyable and intriguing. Keep it up
So....does that mean the God forms really are stronger than we think?
Z1 Puncher 無限の拳 they have to be. Ssg was a acceptable form for beerus to fight who just mopped ssj3 with a fraction of his power. That increase alone is huge.
Ssg could be 10-20x stronger than ss3 all of this is opinion based and speculation everyone, do not forget that.
Srijan Poudel I think he lied to vegeta
Like he did numerous times against goku.
I think 'god' state is totally another level. Just like being in another dimension of strenght.
Without god ki
It needs so much gain in power level to fight a god.
( 50 normal power = 1 god power
But if charactera gained god ki, it becomes equal for example)
That's why SSJ3 goku can't do shit on Beerus in the first place.
Just my theory though.
TheHolyMakaveli ssg is thousands of times stronger than ss3
This actually makes sense. Because now we can also take into consideration that Ssj2 is not exactly 2x's stronger than a Ssj1 (same being said with Ssj3).
No one really knows the exact numbers, because depending on how much you train, or if you got a rage boost (or whatever it is), it may not be exactly 50x's for a *Ssj1,* or 2x's of a Ssj for a *Ssj2,* or 4x's of a Ssj2 for a *Ssj3.*
I'll put the nail into the coffin by saying that in the Dragon Ball Super manga, Trunks says *"I never settled for the power this transformation form brings, so..."* and proceeds to power up his Ssj2 on par to Goku's Ssj3. Meaning that Trunks was doing something with his Ssj2 akin to what we know Goku and Gohan did with Ssj1. That just proves that you can power up *on top of* Ssj2, proving this video to make a whole damn lot of sense.
T'was an old username and I'll change it soon. It is an enhancement on his form using rage from when Kibito died, it’s on the wiki. Same with vegeta, they both kept the enhanced states.
Yes, it's a different state. It's no longer standard SSJ2. Making your point moot.
I think what it means is that SSj2 (grade 5, technically) is 2 times stronger than MSSJ1 (Grade 4 technically).
Of course, I'm OCD and Spergy, so I will now state that I like the uniformity of an increasing multiplier. Meaning Grade 2 is 2x SSJ, grade 3 is 3x grade 2 at cost of speed, MSSJ is 4x grade 3 with no penalties, and then SSJ2 is probably 5x MSSJ due to just how easily Gohan started curb-stomping Perfect Cell. (don't take this seriously at all.)
Some have theorized that you have to be about 4x the power of someone in DB to be totally untouchable and immune to damage. Kinda true since Raditz was about 3x either Goku or Piccolo and together they could still get some decent hits in.
From that scene with Goku and Korin, I always remembered Gohan being surprised that Goku had that much power. However, when later, combined with the events of the Cell games, in which Gohan had no problem seeing Goku's movements and actually thought he was holding back, and the few flashbacks we saw of Goku and Gohan battling as Super Saiyans, I was always under the impression that Goku was actually training just as hard as Vegeta, if not harder. Gohan just didn't really realize it because he thought his father was holding himself back and training him the whole time, which certainly wasn't true because of all that was just discussed. Really minor point I guess, but it just rubbed me the wrong way.
That's actually an interesting interpretation, and it makes sense for Gohan's character at that point, since he underestimated his own power.
@@papawedge7396 actually, gohan wasnt even impressed. He stood there like nothing
I love your channel Seth. Thanks for making videos. Keep doing your thing man.
Thank you for this video. For the longest I've been saying and thinking it has to be a lot more than 50x. Never wanted to do any math or go back and look for evidence though lol. Now I can point people to this video
Dan Ey dan What happened to swagkage? 😂
Ugandan Warrior ffs lmao more like 6th dimensional or some shit,Probably more than 5
SSJ multipliers make no sense.
Dan but actually you need to debate on yourself it's not smart using a vid to help you because seth is not toei
Super Gogeta the whole multipler stuff doesn't hold up with fights during the cell saga. Plus Seth kept bringing up unofficial guides over ten years old.
2 Years and I still haven't seen anyone commenting on the cursed link face flashing for a second during the outro.
Thanks to you I just found out about that!
if ssj3 is grade 6 then this makes ssj4 the actual "Super saiyan" from legends since its literally the final ssj form attainable without god ki.
The super Saiyan from legends seem to be either initial ssj on namek or the Golden Oozaru which is 10x Ssj, it's the strongest transformation before ssj4 without God ki that Goku uses
Bruh love the breakdown!
Appsolutely Geek'D love your vids
Ayy whats up bro
How you just gonna use bruh to address people
Big Knuckles bruh, imma assume you were joking with this comment. There is nothing wrong with showing support for someone that is putting in good work. 👍🏽
Big Knuckles i see what you mean, however I do not believe that was the point of the video. He is stating that the 50 times multiplier isn’t a set number. That grade 4 should be more than grade one, 2, or 3. They all can’t be 50x his base.
I've been Trying to Spread this info Seeing as how its from an Accurate/official Guide but everyone in the community seems to stubborn to change there mind and find every possible way to say I'm wrong
Nice vid tho lots of Good evidence
Getting stronger without gaining muscle mass is basically ssj2 going off of trunks, when gohan transformed and trunks said he did it he increased his strength without gaming muscle
I mean Gohan didn't exactly get bigger but got a pump as he went ssj2
Why Hercule is FAR STRONGER than people think
MegathekidYT who would win hercule (below -100) power or jiren (full power)
FeWzE HaVack Well If We Highball Jiren We Could Argue He’s At least Building Level With Wank, But That’s Pushing It, As We Know Hercule Defeated Cell, With 1 Percent Of His Power, So If We Power Scale, Cell Defeated A Military, Who Were Shooting With Rapid Fire Power, Goku Was Shot With A Bullet And Was Hurt, This Same Bullet Level Goku Is Probably Stronger Or Less Than Jiren With Perfected Ultra Instinct, So That’d Make Jiren Bullet Level, Cell Again Took On A Whole Military With No Damage, So That’d Make Cell Stronger Than Jiren, And Hercule Beat Cell, So Therefore Hercule SLAPS Jiren
Jonathan Getachew LOL
World champ!
The man defeated Cell and saved the planet, Satan is strong as hell.
In less than 2 minutes, I now welcome the cold embrace of death. S-Cells. _S-Cells?!_
*coughs blood*
*coughs up more blood*
Stop! I can't take much more!
Finally a fellow obsessive fan making good arguments
This is damn fine good work you're doing here, Seth, damn fine. We've all been sleeping on the mastered super saiyan state all these years, this is a good wake up call.
i always knew that this form is something pure and special!! happy you made it relevant again!!! Keep it going Seth!!! btw future trunks was also strong in this form when he fought zamasu and Goku Black in Dragon Ball Super Episode 63. The staff could easily gave FTrunks a ssjb, but didn't!! so this theory could back that up, i think.
Honestly, it was obvious the wouldn't give him SSB as soon as we saw they gave him blue hair in base, as opposed to his silver/lavender in the original Z. It would be ridiculous to give him blue when he would look barely any different from base.
Mellavelli love db absalon bro
I'm surprised no one asked for a SSJG and SSJB multiplier in the comment section. Good job!
You eat Big Macs like Tic Tacs *Ssj Vegito but yeah
You eat Big Macs like Tic Tacs when was this stated
what?why would people ask about that? O.O
You eat Big Macs like Tic Tacs
SSB is 50*SSG or 500*SSG.
knowing how beerus easily defeated ss3. ssgod would be atleast ss3*100 it would be interesting to know the real multiplyer. then there is blue too.
I always doubted this but didn't had enough info. glad to find this VDO
I love how in depth and irrefutable your videos are bro. I hope you never get tired of this✊🏽
Love the videos my guy
This is actually true. Its even said by toei that super saiyan if mastered can surpass super saiyan 3 .
jam rose actually it hold some sense.. know that transformation is different from Powering Up. In the video example by Seth, Goku was in SSJ form when he powered up further to P.Cell. Therefore, the SSJ by default gives 50 times multiplier to the base form, but powering up further surpasses the 50 time boost it gives. So the idea that SSJ can surpass SSJ3 if mastered or improved or if the base form is strong holds some sense.
Especially if you want to consider the idea that Toriyama wants to remove SSJ2 and SSJ3 and stick to the orginal SSJ form only since the author himself stated that SSJ2 and 3 are just merely extensions of the forms.
jam rose but ssj2 vegeta surpassed ssj3 goku when he fought beerus
Giokyo nice try, but that was ssj2 *with* rage boost
Alva degallerie ??? That still show ssj2 surpassed ssj3 even trunks at ssj2 was almost comparable to ssj3 goku
Let me just end this... ssj3 gotenks couldn't even touch my base form... game over.
Goku’s technique is almost killing himself thats why his so strong
this was an amazing breakdown. very well informed.
Damn, when i saw the thumbnail, i was like "pfft, clickbait, why not check out if he has legit statements"
But i was surprised, i think you're the only one in the community who mentioned this.
Mark Of The Rebellion yeah I thought I was gonna hear him say something stupid but he made pretty good points. I never took into account the grade 2-4 ssj forms
Yoshi, Yeah, me too.
What if mastering SSJ (different SSJ grades) has less to do with increasing your total power, but more to do with using it more efficiently. Imagine Goku's power as a container of water, and his body as a hose. Training his body increases the diameter of the hose so he can release more of his energy safely at once. Training his KI increases the amount of water the container can hold. Training his mastery improves the effectiveness of the nozzle. "Powering up" puts the whole system under more pressure. Base form would be like a garden hose. You can somewhat control the output of it, but it can only handle so much pressure (why kaioken is so hard on the body). Turning SSJg1 gives you a fire hose that can handle much more pressure and move much more volume but still has a garden hose nozzle (We've never seen a canon ssjg1 character able to fully deplete their energy in one shot, without dying). SSJg2 upgrades the nozzle a bit so you can push more out and SSJg3 just cuts the nozzle off and splooges energy everywhere, allowing you to take advantage of the rediculous wellspring of power available to you, just very inefficiently. SSJg4 is like attaching a variable nozzle, where you can focus your energy relatively well, but open the tap way up if you need to. Mastered SSJ is just a step behind that, being able to focus the water so it can cut diamonds or opening up into a nozzle with a venturi effect, allowing more volume to escape at once than just the pressure you can produce would allow. I think SSJ as a whole, regardless of what stage you're in, has the weak link of the hose, which is why SSJ3 does what it does to Goku's stamina. God ki replaces the water, or mixes with it, something much more dense, which increases the energy capacity and flow without having to increase the body's training by the same ratio that would be required (and likely impossible) to handle the equivalent mass of water. This would explain why base Goku doesn't absolutely shit on more normal characters (IE Krillin), and why when we see unmastered forms of SSJ put everything they can into a blast, they aren't completely drained. Now, downvote me into oblivion for having a wall of text with an unpopular opinion.
Lonestar Cruzer nice
SSJ Grade 4 and MSSJ are the same thing though....
I disagree only because there is a visible difference in the displayed power of all the different grades. This explanation would insinuate that MSSJ Goku merely has a fuckton more latent energy than Super Saiyan Grade 2 Vegeta. Even though I do believe MSSJ is more efficient than SSJg2, this explanation doesn't necessarily make sense, since it would imply that in order to sense a person's power or energy they would have to be outputing that power.
Let me explain.
MSSJ Goku was perceived to be stronger than Vegeta when Goku exited the hyperbolic time chamber. This was before he had powered up and was relaxed. Now if MSSJ had the same overall volume of power as SSJg1 then the only way for this to be possible is for Goku to have been passively outputting more of that power, which would be much less efficient (unless you're implying goku became excessively more powerful than vegeta in base while training with Gohan than Vegeta did while training with Trunks, allowing Goku to passively output more power for longer).
My point is that the output theory doesn't stack up because of how energy is sensed. They don't sense energy output or capacity. They don't say "Wow, his stamina is unreal!" If super saiyan grade 2 only increased the potential output of the nozzle, Vegeta could not have become more powerful than Second Stage Cell. He would only be capable of perhaps a more powerful desperation attack. He'd still be working with a tank that is inferior to second stage Cell's
@Javon Spells You don't have to be outputting power for it to be detected, you have to actively conceal it for it to be unable to be detected. There's a few things I didn't go into, like power leakage (when someone powers up beyond what their body can handle efficiently, and it effects the environment around them). This would be caused when you apply more pressure to your energy and it just leaks out. We know Ki can directly effect the physical attributes of a fighter, so essentially by mastering the output from SSJ they are able to reinforce their bodies to allow more pressure before leaking. Since we don't know exactly what Ki feels like when you're sensing it, saying something feels more powerful than something else could mean it feels more massive, or more intense, or more potent, or even just more dangerous. Like if you're touching an object, you feel more than 1 sensation. Goku would definitely have more energy by the time he mastered SSJ than when he achieved SSJ, but I see no evidence that the different grades actually possess more energy than the others. I think power levels are derived from a formula of the different aspects of a fighter's energy, not just the quantity.
So I still disagree with you on this subject of power "output." The way that power levels and energy levels work in DB is that the power that is displayed is what's being used. For example, goku being able to suppress his power to the point where he can be scratched by bullets. It isn't a matter of concealing his power, it is a matter of actively being of that power, or outputting that much energy.
The only exception to this could be when Trunks deceived the Frieza soldiers into thinking he was weak. But based on how the series has worked up to this point, we can assume he just output energy as necessary to deal with the attacks. The bottom line is that they do not conceal their power in Dragon Ball. This would imply that they are of the same strength, even when their power levels fluctuate. Looking at Goku being scratched by a bullet and being felled by a laser in Super, and him being hit in the head with a rock and recoiling in DBZ, the strength of the fighter fluctuates as does the power level. Otherwise an off-guard goku, or a suppressed goku, would still have the fighting power and durability of his "full-power" (unless you're trying to draw a distinction between power suppression and power level concealment).
As far as the different forms containing different quantities of energy, it is difficult to call since we usually see new forms on the back end of a character's training. So it is hard to compare. But looking at Grade 2 Trunks vs. Grade 3 Trunks, if we assume that Vegeta and Trunks are comparable in power then by your logic the amount of output that Trunks would be capable of would about the same as Vegeta's grade 2. Only he would be able to output more at once.
However, looking at Dragon Ball Z Kai episode 82 when Trunks fights Cell, as he is powering up, both Tien and Piccolo remark that Trunks is stronger than Vegeta. Tien even says "Well he puts Vegeta to shame." Krillin also remarks that Cell has reason to be afraid. This is important because by comparison, I think it is fair to say that comparatively Trunks would need a much higher volume of power to be considered more powerful than Vegeta when Vegeta had already unleashed his most powerful attack--the final flash (a move that he took time to charge and amp its power) and Trunks was still seen to have had a much better chance at defeating Cell (this judgement having been made during Trunks' transformation mind you and not fully powered up). Even if you don't believe that power levels are calculated by volume, for the spectators to have been confident in Trunks' ability to defeat cell after having felt Vegeta's full powered attack (which did not defeat cell) certainly implies that Trunks would've have nhad a much larger volume of power to compare. Being able to release more energy all at once still wouldn't account for the difference perceived between Vegeta and Trunks. Your theory on super saiyan grades applies more to the difference between the special beam cannon and say light grenade in my opinion.
One of your best videos ever.
@SethTheProgrammer I think you hit the nail on the head seth. When they say that SSJ2 is 2x SSJ power I think they mean FPSSJ, in teen Gohan's case I think it would have been even higher, the same thing applies to SSJ2 and 3 imo because even after Cell received his SSJ2 buff he was still hesitant to attack Gohan which suggest that he wasn't confident he could just out right beat Gohan, Gohan who smiled sadistically when cell came back.
To further add in Gohan case, his rage boost vs Cell was much more than a x2 modifier which makes sense when you consider that Gohan with one arm and "half power lost" fended of a solar system level kamehameha.
In my option, though their wasn't much evidence, I would have to say Imperfect Cell after absorbing half a million Humans was around 2x 17 and Piccolo.
If we accept that Imperfect Cell who was stronger than 17 and Super Namek Pickers was himself + 17 bare minimum as semi Perfect Cell, then Grade 2 Vegeta like you said is easily 3-5 times stronger than he was when he faced 18. 18 and 16 both noted the huge increase in Vegeta's strength.
Since when does getting an arm broken takes down half your power? Ask future Gohan who putted a better fight armless losing an arm only it's a drawback but doesnt affect your power at all
I love getting those notifications
Love The Videos Seth , Keep Up The Good Work and With Educating Deez People in The Community
Ok, this makes sense.
Regular Super Saiyan, such as what we saw with Goku on Namek, IS 50x. But mastering it, which is the form we normally see nowadays, has to be significantly above that.
I really liked this. Changed my whole perspective on super saiyan. I like how you presented everything, never got too confusing or anything. This was my first vid of yours I've seen and I'm subbing for more lol
Makes sense, because is SSJ is 50x and SSJ2 is x50x2, then that means SSJ2 is only double the power of SSJ. But when taking into account grade 2, 3, and 4, SSJ2 should actually be weaker than grade 2, 3, and 4. So SSJ2 is at least a 2 times multiplier in top of grade 4, not grade 1.
exactly, if it was multiplying off grade 1 it'd be useless, hell even SS3 would be not worth it because downplaying grade 4 would still give comparable power + no stamina problems
Yeah, I said SSJ2 was a 2x multiplier on SSJ grade 4, but SSJG4 is MSSJ. My interest though lies in what multiplier is MSSJ.
Basically, NUB S.S. is X, S.S. Grade 2 is 4X with a much larger drain on ki reserves, Grade 3 is 20X with X speed, Grade 4 is 12X and SS2 is 24X
? Base SSJ is a 50x multiplier. But what you're saying is that SSJ2 is less than half of the original Super Saiyan. I want to find out what the MSSJ, or SSJG4's multiplier is. Assuming that each grade is twice as powerful as the one before it, that would mean SSJ2 is at least somewhere around 800x base. Or it could be 450x base assuming that SSJ = 50x, SSJG2 = 1.5x, SSJG3 = 1.5, SSJG4 = 2x, and SSJ2 = 2x, as some of the grades more powerful than others. On top of that however, Trunks in SSJG3 (I think it was G3) was over perfect cell's level even though he couldn't hit him, but so was Gohan in SSJ2 but with greater speed and more strength. So really it comes down to the fact that I have no idea what any of the multipliers are, and I haven't the faintest idea of where the SSJ Grade forms lie in terms of power.
Eclipseslayer98 the math I gave places SSGrade 4 at 12* Super Saiyan (in the equation Super Saiyan was X)
Meaning that so long as Super Saiyan remains a base multiplier of 50 as Seth assumes, SSGrade 4 would be base*600, while SS2 would be base*1200 (and summarily SS3 would be freaking base*4800)
thanks for explaining Toriyama's false ssj statement. i left that comment on your previous video. im guessong you either saw it or you figured it out quick on your own. :)
jam rose yea, he is vary forgetful about his own anime and I'f you did now known that you do now🤷
jam rose I would actually like you to prove how he knows everything about his anime if you really think he knows his anime🤔
Mighty Raccoon and that he forgot to draw goten and trunks tails in the buu saga
Mighty Raccoon I was vary confuse why Vegeta daughter Bra was not born with a tail when wiz helped bulma give birth
Isn't Super written by someone else and built off of footnotes from Toriyama?
I’ve heard you use “cognitive dissonance” incorrectly in 2 videos now
I appreciate the Death Note music. Great video by the way!
You forget that Toriyama himself contradicts his own canon. You can't trust anything as canon because Toriyama doesn't give a crap about any of that. Either someone is stronger or weaker, that's all that matters to him.
Goku said that kaioken even multiplies your hearing so when you go kaioken x20 everything has gotta be loud
I can imagine that
Goku: **Turns kaioken ×20**
**Winds blow**
Goku: T H A T W A S L O U D
@@joeda900 the screaming of both fighters will destroy your ears
@@lancetheking7524 lol😂
Thank u unlike some other people your telling the truth
Grade 4 being less bulky than 2 or 3 is indicative of superior efficiency and energy management: after powering up from base to ssj, in grades 2 and 3 as the saiyan outputs more and more ki, the body responds to the demand of maintaining that output by bulking up. Notice the copious outpour of energy as they power up and bulk up. Grade 4 does not need to bulk up. Since grade 4 can be totally relaxed in the ssj form, not only does it have greater stamina, it also gives more efficiency in powering up and exerting power since it 1. Necessitates spending far more time in the ssj form and 2. Gives far more overhead to power up because the Saiyan doesn't have to power up to ssj first just to get there and then power up more on top of that. Because there's so much overhead and familiarity with the form, grade 4 doesn't have to bulk up and output gobs of ki in order to power up.
Yeahhh you got it :)
Also if you think about it. Grade 2 and 3 is like putting all of the energy you would have at grade 4 into the muscles instead of the body. Like Trunks said, you have to power up the right way in order to use that energy effectively without loss in speed.
OverRule2 exactly grade 1 has to put all their energy into powering up just to attain a certain power level while grade 4 essentially puts all of that energy directly into their stats since they don't have to exert themselves so much
The max potential of a first time Ssj/Prodigy Goku is 50x. Ignoring grade 2 & 3. A ssj that becomes acclimated to their form eventually understands that this 'mutation' requires adaptation from the host. Once adaptation is completely naturally the ssj no longer focuses their energy on maintaining the form and naturally the lack of that focus allows them the freedom to explore an ssj's true potential which is a 500x-1000x multiplier for base form. On top of that Advanced ssj/ssj2 Prodigy Gohan is 1000-2000x his normal strength- Yet if mastered is controllable then ssj2 can also in theory become mastered as well, however it's never explored and further more wouldn't that make mastering ssj3 possible? (Unlikely given time constraints) there original belief of 800x or something could be VASTLY underestimating the true scale of a ssj's potential but only ssj's explored so i wouldn't speculate ssj3 on Goku is something absolutely insane such as 10,000x
TakacuntoiSenπ!!! The Destroyer not necessarily cuz ssj3 appears to be lol literally an abomination: only attainable by the Saiyan who first brought back ssj form and died and trained for years in the afterlife with the strongest warriors in history, and the other attained by a fusion of 2 saiyan/human hybrid prodigies who achieved ssj younger than age 9 each and whose father's were prodigies and achieved ssj before the boys were born. Not only was goku one of their fathers, he also showed them ssj3 which was apparently critical in them getting the form. Otherwise nobody has achieveed ssj3, even trunks or Goten on their own...although it isn't even clear if they're ssj2 even though they've been ssj for years now...even cabba got 2 without much time....ugh, I digress lol
Seth RED vs. Gold
Who is better trainer?
_Seth has already did that._
Gegiù that video was trash, one of the few videos he did that i disagree with.
Mighty Raccoon Red can just use Mewtwo.
You
Your video presentation is getting alot better
Honestly what he said makes sense but I feel like everyone kinda hates Seth for some reason so like not sure how theyd take it
I guess it makes sense if you take everything he says as gospel truth but this is all incorrect.
@@travelreview5962 bro I’m not sucking him off he’s a smart dude and I respect his opinions cause they facts to back them up some times he saying some crazy shit bro I’m not sure if it’s 500x base but I definitely think the multiplier higher than 50 now
hey man great video this is a topic that I also think needs a good discussion, though I agreed with the majority of your points however there are some things that need expanded on such as that generic 50 times bonus and I disagree with other points such as ssj grade 4 being ssj grade 3. i would love to have talk with you about this topic it's always good to hear a different opinion or view point as it gonna help you reassess your own beliefs or reinforce them either way I think everyone gets a clearer picture especially on such subjective topics. plus it's fun to nerd out with other for me anyway
Okay so let me get this straight
Super Saiyan (x50)
Super Saiyan Grade 2 (x150)
Super Saiyan Grade 3 (x1,500)
Super Saiyan Full Power (x3,000) since you said he was stronger than Grade 3 Trunks at half power
Super Saiyan 2 (x6,000)
Super Saiyan 3 (x24,000)
Is this right?
Yes
Tf
BlueTheVEGGANTM No.
If Goku was stronger than Grade 3 Trunks, he would have rolf stomped Cell
Palmtop Studios Cell was holding back against trunks and I’m pretty sure cell trained in between the Perfect Cell saga and the Cell Games
Damn so it's an 1000? And tht was dope bro great
Great video man!
Death Note theme in background=❤
so ur boi goku hit the genetic jack pot
Love it, I've always thought of current SSJ as a 500x, it makes so much more sense to the story as well.
No
The problem with Dragon Ball is that Toriyama himself doesn't know Gokus power multipliers, he just guesstimates rather than putting thought into it, like Seth
I like the explanation. It kinda clears up some stuff... BUT what if... you know... they just got stronger which therefor makes their transformation stringer... not debunking you just saying what if.
likeaboss903
They wouldn’t be able to get that strong >_> that’s why Seth said give or take and didn’t give any exact measurements because we don’t know.
But no way that goku base is that much stronger as it doesn’t make any sense
Lilly Hill and why exactly couldn't it be? He jumped from 90,000 or some such number while on Namek, to 3,000,000 in one super Zenkai Boost because plot and to match Frieza, despite the fact he never even got close to that level of power with his training and despite the fact Vegeta had like 4 or 5 of those since the end of Saiyans arc and yet he still didn't get such a massive boost. Then came all the close calls after that in the 2 following arcs, hyperbolic time chamber, and God form. Which gave him a boost far beyond anything else, and that boost stayed in his base form. I really don't see what's missing here.
@@TheJarJarKinks I really have no idea what I have to prove at all. Entirety of Z, no one gets stronger without proper training or some other way of getting stronger, but come Super Black grows massively stronger merely copying Goku and getting a little roughed up, while Goku and Vegeta get literal hundreds of times stronger in a single hour because they are "pushing their limits". Vegeta gets Zenkai'd after every proper kick in the face and some healing, see when it ever happens again after Frieza is dead - sure as hell didn't get a power boost after 18 broke his arm and Perfect Cell hit him so hard he got him out of Super Saiyan. Growing while having limits pushed seems inconsistent, Zenkai are inconsistent. They are also just perfectly big enough that they can overpower the enemy or have a close fight (Vegeta got a hole on his gut and Goku got his body trashed, but Vegeta has only enough to be humiliated by Frieza and Goku to sufficiently overpower him with the boost from Super Saiyan, no more no less. A single boost way way higher than any other shown and just enough to get things done). Inconsistency and convenience are common.
People said super Saiyan is only double the power of their power, they are so wrong.
I've never heard anyone say this and if they did they're an idiot. Seth is also way wrong but saying it's 2x base when Frieza was over powering 20x Kaioken Goku is a level of retarded that is unexplainable and I'm not even sure 1 person has ever thought that it was.
@@travelreview5962 Seth isn't wrong and he is smarter than you🤣
I think some people forget that base form power levels are what the Super Saiyan forms are multiplying, and with increasing the base form, it increases what Super Saiyan multiplies.
Something interesting I've found in researching super saiyan power trees, there is a quote from Akira Toryama that says that Super Saiyan Full Power would technically be more powerful than super saiyans 1-3, inherently greater than the grades 1-5 (ssj 1-2), which means grade 4 is different than SSFP, as Gohan went from SSj G4 to G5 (SSJ 2) to beat Perfect Cell and was canonically more powerful .
Early as hell
So from what I'm seeing here Oolong is the strongest in the universe? Am I getting this right?
Tentarek No, Puar solos all of DC.
hahahah nice
@@farmerwithshotgun5166 The god said it. This madlad said it.
Definitely Mr Popo.
@DannyDaDuffyDucking DafferRaditz destroyed his marijuana patch.... Raditz didn't even life through the Saiyan Saga.
Best video in a long time
Agreed, this makes complete sense. The first form ssj is 50 time multiplier itself, but mastered ssj is in a hold other league.
We’re gonna need Seth for a long ass time as soon as this movie and the series comes back. You speak the truth and look deeper than any other i’ve ever seen
there is no 500x multiplier
ssj1 50x
ssj2 100x
ssj3 400x
So are you saying that Gohan ss1 is only half as strong as gohan ss2.. and not only is gohan as 2 times stronger(the first version of beating cell) was able to beat cell, but BEAT SUPER CELL(50 times stronger then cell originally was) and CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG BUT IF SS1 GOHAN COULDNT BEAT CELL THEN CELL 50 TIMES STRONGER( ERAGO GOHAN 50 TIMES STRONGER THEN BASE) COULDN'T DEFEAT 50 TIMES STRONGER CELL) SO IT VARRIES.
Your welcome . basic math
Even if it was 50 times stronger then the sayin form IT wouldn't satisfy gohan beating super cell.
Really nice video. Please do more videos like this, for example power scaling for all the different forms / characters in the Buu Saga.
I love the new way the video is put together and the way it is now -yuki
OH MY GOD. I was so confused and I need to rewatch this now. When I watched the video originally all I heard was the sound track and saw the images, but then upon watching other videos I realized....my headphones were jacked up. Lol
And here I was about to comment “Great vid man but I wish you talked like you normally do.” Good thing I didn’t 😂😂😂
Wait...SSJ Blue Evolution is the god version of SSJ Grade 2. When vegeta went Evolution, his shoulders got bigger, just like Grade 2!
It literally is
Only difference is the pupils
Pretty much this is the widely accepted theory. You could call it SSJB Grade 2
Does... Does this mean there's SSJB Grades 3 - 5 and maybe 6?
Oh. Please no.
Love your content keep up the good work informing the community
Seth, geekdom, Chuck, swagkage, and a few others that typically collab is the reason I don't fuck with Facebook. These videos really help me get through work and boredom. Thank you guys for all of your research!
Goku’s grade 4 can be his base being stronger then vegetas
Don't waste your time arguing with these idiots... they are 🐑 and follow whatever Seth says blindly.
Not sure how this definitively proves anything. This is more like... well there's lots of information missing and Toriyama's memory is like a sieve so let's just fill this in however.
A higher base PL makes SSJ stronger to begin with so there's not even a need for a higher multiplier except in the case of new villains that exceed that. If that was the case though, Goku being the genius that discovered MSSJ would have trained it up instead of bothering with SSJ2 or even SSJ3, why use either if MSSJ's multiplier can be raised beyond?
You could argue that there's nothing that states SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't tied to SSJ PL not base PL but there's also nothing to definitively state they are. There lies the problem, it all remains firmly in theory for eternity.
Thing is, Goku's base form isn't stagnant, its strength goes up as we advance in time through training and zenkais.
There is one thing we all can agree on, super saiyan is a form.
The decreasing multiplier theory was popularised by Vegito1089. He had it as a x7 for the Cell saga and everything beyond that. It was a way of explaining how the Saiyans can fight a villain in base form without getting one shotted especially in the movies. The power level of the ssj form doesn’t change it’s just that the base is much stronger and the gap between the two isn’t as big.
Think of it as similar to when Goku absorbed the power of ssjg but to a much lesser extent and gradually over the years. The ssj power bleeds into the base. Ps I don’t believe his theory as the movies do that shit for tension.
DanDaMaN95cov yeah I remember that!
SSJ isn't a multipliers would be a better explanation
Its one of the worst theories this fandom has ever came up with imo.
I love when people try to calculate the power levels of animated space professional wrestling. Good muscle guys beat bad muscle guys after some planned adversity. The sum is very simple
Probably the best DBZ videos I've ever seen!
Absolutely spot on! Keep up the good work!
Seth this has nothing to do with the video but is majin buu a god sense he absorbed a supreme kai? Great video by the way keep it up
If he knows how to tap into God ki, yes.
Since?
Yo i never thought of that
The thing is... if Buu absorb more good ki into his body like absorb some Kais ===> He would get weaker.
That why Kid Buu was the most Dangerous Buu... because of him being pure evil. He not a Strongest Buu, but most Dangerous.
I heard somewhere on the internet told that the real Buu in the past before Buu Saga was actually more powerful.
Seth Seth Seth, but what about writers intent. Fan speculation is one thing but actual fact from the writer is worth more then fan theory. But that's just my thought dude.
Writers intent doesn't necessarily translate to what they could have down on the page. For example, an author could intend to say a character can easily aim dodge, but if on the pages, if the character dodged the bullets after the gun is fired, that's clear bullet timing. A Perfect example of Captain America, despite the fact that they say he's peak or potential human, yet he clearly has some super-human feats. That's death of the author.
Yeah that's fine, I still stand by my opinion, every writer has their own way of writing i'm not making excuses it's just the evidence for new ssj multiplier is a little thin. i need more evidence.
Jonny Blaze X1 That's cool, just understand what death of the author fully means before choosing. Despite the author intentions, the full saying goes "the death of the author is the birth of the reader," and that "books are mean to be read, not written." A lot of fictional works are interpreted based on reader views, and will translate differently than what was written. It's also fallacious to assume that the authors are intellectuals and fully understand the implications of what they're writing. With that said, Toriyama is often times inconsistent and forgetful of his own work. That's why he doesn't mind leaving it up to outside sources like the guides and such to create persistence and provide aome coherence to the lore. Proof of the fact he went with x50 for ssj, which was presented by guids, instead of the initial x10 he intended it to be.
That always baffles me the writer knows more, its good that the reader has their own view but understand that a writer knows and should know because that's their story not the readers. I find "Death of the Author", a dumb argument...
but i do agree on outside influence affecting Toriyama's work but it's always up to Toriyama himself making the final choice.
Holy shit Seth, this is really an eye opener for the whole community. Thanks for the video man.
Great video Seth, keep it up!
Seth really keep it up man. You honestly keep the dbz community sane and not killing themselves
So do the SSJ2 and SSJ3 multilpliers still apply if the mastered SSJ state is indeed a 500X increase?
Sprite Man maybe it's a 50/50
In the Dragon Ball Super manga, Trunks says *"I never settled for the power this transformation form brings, so..."* and proceeds to power up his Ssj2 on par to Goku's Ssj3. Meaning that Trunks was doing something with his Ssj2 akin to what we know Goku and Gohan did with Ssj1. That just proves that you can power up *on top of* Ssj2, proving this video to make a whole damn lot of sense.
@SILOOFFICIAL The way I see it...
We can do whatever we want
Don't forget that their base forms also increase in power. Just remember that if their SSJ forms get stronger, there's the possibility that their base forms get stronger as well. It's talked about in the anime, manga, and by Toriyama. Instead of trying to reach new levels of transformations, Goku and Vegeta has instead worked on raising their base form, which in turn increases their SSJ forms.
@@Based-Anarcho-Syndicalist-Chad Where and when?
This was really cool thanks
Hey Seth keep up the good work always love your videos. I'm a dragon Ball fan and i was wondering if you could do a video on who was a better/more powerful between dende and kami. Kami had the decades worth of experience also laid the foundation for dende of course but dende expanded and improved many of the ideas set by kami i.e the dragon Balls and the room of spirit and time. Thanks man!
Let's just be real. Super Saiyan takes out all of the DC and Marvel realities.
Rajeya yeah no way Superman is even a solar system buster
Are you including The One Above All and the Presence?
Uh huh sure. Let's see what Dr. Manhattan thinks about that. Oh and super man and the hulk.
What about Dr.strange
@@joshuablackmon8943 Strange does have magic but Majin Buu was pure magic and he was taken out.