Does Romans 9 Teach Calvinism? Non-Calvinist Interpretation
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Does Romans 9 teach Calvinism and that God has predestined every individual to either heaven or hell? In this video Jordan Hatfield, Sam McVay and Jason Villanueva examine this difficult passage and offer a non-Calvinist interpretation which redeems the text as a beautiful explanation of the gospel.
Watch my full series comparing Galatians to Romans 9 to unlock the meaning of this difficult chapter:
Part 1: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Part 2: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Part 3: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Part 4: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Part 5: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Part 6: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Part 7: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Part 8: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Par 9: • Does Romans 9 Teach Ca...
Watch more of my videos on Calvinism: • Answering Calvinism (N...
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#calvinism #Romans9 #noncalvinist #calvinist ##soteriology #Predestination #Calvinism #Provisionism #Calvinist #Salvation #calvinismdebate #christianity
Amazing. So helpful! Romans 9 is not a hard pill to swallow as so many think but a glorious proclamation of God’s sovereign and merciful choice to save any sinner who humbly trusts in Christ alone.
I'm glad to know it was helpful. Thanks for watching!
@stevenmena, It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo
So your reprobate ?
@@GreatLightStudios God still Hates esau, God does not change
@@thriftytraveler2001 Yes, God still ""hates"" those who reject His blessing(Jesus) for a plate of lentils(works).
Great breakdown. Indeed it becomes much clearer when you look at it through the lens of Christ rather than Calvin
Absolutely! Thanks for watching!
calvinism did not startv with calvinism if u think iy did u know nothing of calvinism
@@GreatLightStudios your trouble is your theology is man center
@@bibleman7757 Hi, I don't think so. I would argue that Calvinism presents a more man-centered perspective of God actually.
@@bibleman7757correct it actually started with Augustine but that doesn’t necessarily mean Augustine was right, thanks
I believe what Paul was doing by quoting Malachi in Rom 9 13 is far deeper than most might imagine. He was right in the middle of explaining how national Israel missed righteousness by thinking it was by the law and how Gentiles attained it by faith. Unbelieving national Israel vs believing Gentiles is the theme. Verse 30 is his conclusory remark.
Was Paul really saying that God hated Esau and loved Jacob to state that God chose Israel over Edom to bring forth Christ? Does Paul really need to tell anyone which nation Jesus came from? Did God have to hate Edom in order to have Jesus come from Israel?
Think about it. Why does Paul reference the physical seed of Abraham (Ishmael) and Isaac, the son of promise, right before referring to Esau and Jacob? What two "nations" were really prophesied in the opening up of Rebekah's womb?
Why, how are we dead to sin?
Not because God is doing a miraculous work in us but because God leaves it up to us to decide, whether would we rather continue in sin or not continue in sin.
In this He puts all the responsibility on us, just as Adam when he first disobeyed God and obeyed his wife.
How can we do this, if no one is righteous, no not one?
The Spirit of God enables us to see sin for what it is. This is why we must turn to God first, because without that it is impossible to turn from sin.
John 6 Jesus tells us His Words are Spirit and they are life and His Words are transferred into Holy Scriptures.
Jesus is the Word of God, the Word became flesh and dwelt among men and whe He went to prepare a place for us He sent tgise who follow Him in the world to continue His Father's business.
To preach Christ, mercy, and salvation to all who believe in the One that God sent, Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God, God manifest in the flesh hallelujah
Pharaohs heart was self hardened before God hardened his heart.
Who told you that? Paul certainly doesn’t say that in Romans 9. In fact, his argument assumes the opposite. And I’m not Calvinist at all. I just know how to read. Paul’s point is that God hardened (9:17-18) and blinded (11:7-10) Israel so that the Gentiles could be saved (11:11-12). But Paul’s point about Pharaoh is that He hardens his heart, and He’s doing the same thing to Israel. And … for the record … in Exodus, the first time Pharaoh’s heart is hardened, it doesn’t say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. After God asserts in Exodus 7:3-5 that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart, the narrative tells us in 7:22 that “Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, neither did he hearten unto them; AS THE LORD HAD SAID.” God didn’t say that Pharaoh would harden his own heart. God said that He would harden Pharaoh’s heart. Verse 22 says that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened (not that he hardened it himself) and then explained that it was hardened as the Lord had said. Paul’s point is that God has hardened hearts before, and He is still hardening hearts for his purposes … allowing the Gentiles to hear and believe the Gospel.
@@toddstevens9667 6 times pharaoh hardened his own heart in exodus 7:13,22 , 8:15,19 and 8:32 confirms pharaoh done it himself…. And again pharaoh hardens his heart in 9:7 then finally in 9:12 “THE LORD HARDENED PHARAOHS HEART”
Plus before any of this pharaohs heart was very hard for the fact of how he was treating the Israelites up to this point….
Pharaohs heart was anything but soft and kind before all this
@@jasonmason6909 it does not say that. You just referred to verses that I quoted that specifically said that God hardened his heart. You need to read more carefully. When the text says that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, it does not mean that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But that’s not the point, even Arminians admit God hardened his heart eventually. Paul’s point is that God is hardening Israel so that Gentiles can hear and believe the Gospel, just like He hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
@@jasonmason6909 I literally quoted in my post Exodus 7:22. Where does it say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart in Exodus 7:22? What do you think it means when the passage says, “Just as the Lord had said.” What passage is that a reference to and when exactly did the Lord say that? This is the sort of nonsensical and ridiculous Bible commentary you find now days. Just read the passage and don’t fit it into your theology. Shape your theology around the Bible, not the other way around. And Calvinists are dead wrong about what Romans 9 means. But that doesn’t give us license to twist the scripture to mean whatever we want it to mean. That makes us no better that the dreaded Calvinists.
@@toddstevens9667 7:13 Pharaohs heart was harden because he didn’t believe…Gods hardening of his heart comes much later….. like I said before pharaohs heart was had been harden way before any of this happened … that’s why the Israelites cries out and God heard them….. but nonetheless we both seem to agree that the calvinist are wrong in their interpretation
This was so good. I’ve said for years the context in Romans 9 was the children of Israel and not the rest of humanity, however, you guys added another layer in the fact this is talking about faith vs works and therefore Gods right to make His people that way! Not sends babies with heaven or hell on them, great way to put that btw, thanks gentlemen
@josephbachota, It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" is probably the worst proof of Calvinism that exists. Claiming this teaches individual predestination is debunked simply by looking up the section in the Old Testament that Paul is quoting. It's from the book of Malachai, this is hundreds of years later after the individuals Jacob and Esau are long dead, and Malachai is referencing the tribes who's lineage comes from Jacob and Esau. Just as Malachai is referencing God's utilization of the tribes of Jacob and Esau, Paul is referencing Malachai as context for his discussion of Jews and Gentiles, which is what Romans is about.
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo
So your reprobate ?
@@brendaleehayter8464 , You are a moron! till me what are your basis that I am reprobate if you are not a moron? Nobody knows who are the elect and who are the reprobstes, not even the apostles but only Jesus,
Sad for you, you don't understand scriptures but your heart is full of hatred,
You are indeed not a true Christian but a moron... No true Christians are moron... by the way, I am not a Calvinist, I don't agree some of their doctrine, but I agree some...
@@JWar-, You talk to much but you are still wrong.. "The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.", => Now tell me is not Jacob and Esau not a single person? God chose Jacob for salvation even before he was born then God change his name into Isrsel and make him a nation chosen by God..
I am not a Calvinist...
Well done, this explanation of faith vs works is spot on. Fits far better in the overall Bible message than Calvinism/Determinism does. Thanks
@willwidrick8039, It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo
So your reprobate ?
I would invite you to learn Arminian theology. Arminians don’t believe that we can come to Christ on our own nor that we do something first that makes God save us. Arminians believe in the doctrine of Prevenient grace, the grace that comes before salvation. That God moves first in our hearts by convicting us of sin, with the preaching of the gospel, with him moving in our hearts first, enabling us to believe and helping us to understand. The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is that Calvinist believe in irresistible grace, the belief that God will irresistibly draw those whom he has unconditionally chose before the beginning of time. Arminians believe that this enabling grace that helps us understand the gospel is given to everyone but it can be resisted like the Jews did in Acts 7:51 “You always resist the Holy Spirit.”
Calvinists believe that you can resist God’s Grace. In fact, they believe pretty much everyone does resist God’s grace. “Irresistible grace” as a label can be misleading.
It's good that you people are not affected by any isms and any tradition of whatever placea you lived...
Can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not..?
@@eg5646, Try to discern it..
This is a really good breakdown!! Who is Mike Winger? Lol
Ha! Thank you sir! Glad it was helpful.
I have to say this is the best breakdown of Romans 9 I have heard. Better that Flowers or Winger!!
Thanks! I'm glad to hear that. If you are interested I have a playlist of 19 videos covering Calvinism. There's a 6 part Romans 9 series included in this playlist. ruclips.net/p/PLlJNUrjZLBEq2FhrqzT-coMx-7nbls9Vw
I'm hoping to create some more content covering Calvinism sometime soon. Thanks for watching!
Are on Facebook?
@@jasonmason6909 Yup!
Found ya
I would agree that from my interpretation of R9 this is the most closest to what I hold and think is most accurate. Very good. I still think it goes beyond on a few things. I hold that Rom9 is why the Jews missed the Messiah, the reason is that they thought they were saved because of Abraham being their father and all the other things of Jewish law and culture. Paul gives multiple examples on why just because you are ethnically a Jew does not mean you are good with God.
Here is my take.
jstevensdk7.blogspot.com/2020/03/romans-9-do-not-jump-shark-commentary.html?m=1
03:46 I am reading through my Gospel (i have only read it once years ago so i am no expert) but i have learnt feel that God does not want us to worry about the ins and outs of everything. Jesus purposely told people to keep quiet about Him being the Son of God and let people discover it through how it acted and what He did. This for me is how we are to live.
Salvation whatever it is, is done via accepting Christ as the Son of God and that He died for our sins and repenting of our Sins. We are then converted and we change.
That change is the same regardless as to what we think of election or choice and God knows that this is the most important point.
Thank you for this video. I think it’ll be helpful to many! However there is a major argument Paul makes in Roman’s 8-11 that seems to be lost/ignored/not known that contextually takes the Calvinism vs non Calvinism debate off the table completely. It’s not a new idea but an idea that we’re ignorant of because we’re 2000 years removed. Here it is: israel is not synonymous with a ethnic Jew. Jews were those from judea. Those of the southern kingdom of Judah were given the name Jews by outsiders during the time of the Babylonian exile. The argument Paul makes in Roman’s is gentile inclusion into the theological construct known as israel, the elect people of God. When you read Roman’s with the divorce of the northern kingdom in mind resulting in the inclusion of the gentiles, the Calvinism argument dissolves and turns to dust. Paul uses Hosea in Roman’s 9 demonstrating that his argument is that those who are not the people of God (northern kingdom who are about to be scattered to the wind and intermixed with all nations) will be called the people of God. Paul says that it’s through the fullness of the nations that all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25-26). The point is that God hardened the northern kingdom in order to show mercy on the gentiles and and because the northern kingdom is no longer ethnically distinct, it’s through the ingathering of gentiles, that all israel will be regathered into the people of God. So so crucial to understand biblical theology. This needs to be integrated into the discussion and it never seems to be.
I wish I could put a new thumbs up every time I watch this!!
God still hates esau
@thriftytraveler2001 The line, "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated," in Romans 9:13, is quoted from Malachi 1, not from Genesis. Malachi contains prophesies against the Edomites, Esau's descendants, who were to be punished for their wicked deeds.
Question ❓
Isn't Romans chapter 8 talking about individuals ?
So why is that left behind in chapter 9 ?
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [29] For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; [30] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Sounds pretty individual to me.
So amazing, how is Calvinism still a thing when we understand Determinist\Gnoatic roots of Calvinism. Beautiful production value and sound. Absolutely perfect.
It's still a thing because of something called ideological possession.. It comes from a spirit that is not of GOD..
@@stephenmcdonaldjr I've read tge blasphemous institutes of Calvin and they corruptly portray CHRIST . Are you familiar with what Calvin coined " evanscent grace " and if so then why do you still follow Calvin ? I've had many many calvinists that have told me that CHRIST JESUS doesn't want everyone to be saved and HE created them in manner that they couldn't be and ordained this from before creation . This teaching is of an evil spirit whether you understand that or not .
@@stephenmcdonaldjr the fact that you understand this passage in a calvinist way revels your lack of understanding my friend .
@@stephenmcdonaldjr you're claim against me is false . I know for a fact that GOD is sending those who deny HIM to the lake of fire for eternity . You use the same proof texts as the mannichean gnostic Fortunatus did when debating against the early church fathers as they were trying to get rid of the gnostic ideas and distinctives that you follow and teach now . Your claims and distinctives are the same as his concerning free will and exhaustive divine determinism . You're claims are unbiblical and actually blasphemous when held in contrast to scripture . This is why roughly 85 to 90 % of christianity rejects calvinism and especially the vast majority of scholars with high view of scripture reject calvinism . In Mark 16 : 15 do you believe CHRIST was being dishonest also sending out HIS apostles to be dishonest and deceive people in HIS HOLY NAME when HE told them to offer salvation to EVERY CREATURE IN THE WHOLE WORLD through the preaching of the gospel ? If you're a consistent calvinist you have to believe this because CHRISTsaid preach the gospel to every creature in the whole world , not just to the elect , therefore giving millions of people false hope through history . This is a type of evanescent grace my friend , in which is CHRIST tricking people into believing they are saved or can be saved only to damn them to hell from before their birth according to Calvin . This is not WHO CHRIST IS according to scripture . CHRIST came to reconcile all things in heaven and earth unto HIMSELF through the power of HIS BLOOD ( collossians 1 : 20 ) . This is how CHRIST shows HIS power and HIS glory , by giving of HIMSELF as HE commands us to do , not by creating people to rob them and their children of eternity and torturing them in the lake of fire to show HIS power and glory as calvinism claims . I urge , even plead.with you to rethink these teachings of calvinism you've embraced my friend because they are a corrupt portrayal of our SAVIOR CHRIST JESUS .
@@stephenmcdonaldjr you don't upset me at all my friend . Just the opposite , I feel sorry for you because I believe you love GOD and want to worship HIM in the correct manner but calvinism doesn't offer that with its false representation of GOD and WHO scripture tells us HE IS .
GOD bless you my friend and I hate no one in this world at all , especially you
So, it was brought up in the video that Romans 9 isn’t about sovereignty versus freewill. While I suppose on some level that is true, the content of the text absolutely demands that we take a position.
The panel here seems to firmly reject the notion that God unconditionally elected anyone to salvation or damnation. Yet the position being expressed - by necessary implication - is that of *conditional election* to salvation and damnation - because faith and unbelief are the conditions. A person having a will is a necessary precondition of them choosing to believe or not believe.
So once again, conditional election or unconditional election are ultimately the only “high-level” competing views of Romans 9. And either one forces us to take a position on determinism or libertarian freewill.
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to the Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion (InterVarsity Press, 2002),
I don’t see men as autonomous, not being controlled by an outside force in Romans 9. Do you?
@@aletheia8054
All men or occasionally some men ?
@@brendaleehayter8464 if occasionally, some men are controlled by an outside force then libertarian Freewill goes out the window.
You either believe there’s an outside force that controls people or you don’t .
I believe the argument is that it was predestined that THEY IN CHRIST (the whosoevers) would be saved; it was God's plan from the very beginning VS. the position that there was a unilateral decision where God hand picked certain individuals to salvation and others to damnation, independent of that individuals choice to respond to the gospel (because they wouldn't have the ability)
@@evolgenius1150 Ephesians 1’s use of “in Christ” isn’t a phrase for “wiggle room for libertarian freewill”. How did anyone ever come to think that? Was it because they were grasping for straws? :-)
People are chosen in Christ, because that’s the only means that people could be elected to for a good outcome.
Would you guys say that Repenting of sins is a work, I'm just asking because it's very confusing to me.
No, I don't think that repentance is a "work" in the biblical sense of the word. To repent means to "change your mind" -- meaning that you once thought one way about God but now you think differently. This will then lead to you thinking differently about sin. I don't believe that repentance in this sense is a "work."
@@GreatLightStudios Thank you, this was also what I was thinking to according to the acual definition of repent, but a lot of people use the term in a very different way.
@@mannygibbs6432 Every work is an action, but not every action is a work. Calvinists like to paint the picture that if we "do" anything, such as repent, then that is a work and we have somehow now merited righteousness. Well, that may be a work according to calvinists, but it would be foreign concept to the biblical authors.
Fabulous and illuminating expository discussion!! Thank you!! Im only sad it hasnt been viewed by hundreds of thousands rather than just thousands. I'll be sharing!!
@ediemarie343, It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo
So your reprobate ?
God still hates esau
Think this through. This one verse (there are many others) refutes hyper Calvinism; Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." If Calvinism were true, the verse would/must say, "Few are chosen."
It does say few are chosen.
Your interpretation of what God chooses is the way in which you become a covenant person with him. That understanding becomes nonsensical when we get to verses 19-23.
Romans 9 verse 8 says the promise the Holy Spirit is the children of the promise (The Holy Spirit) are counted for the seed.
So if you can choose freely then you can also retrieve freely
Fast forward to 9 minutes if you don't want to listen to all the boring chit-chat.
Well done brothers
2023 God still hates esau
Paul brings the issue of God's sovereignty down to the individual level when he mentions Jacob and Esau. Paul hammers home God's sovereignty in versus 16-21. As far as God sending down babies stamped saved or condemned, all the babies arrive condemned as a result of being in Adam and in His sovereignty shows mercy on whom He will show mercy. While Paul starts this section talking about God's sovereignty with respect to Jews and Gentiles he narrows the discussion down to the salvation of individuals, individual vessels.
I LOVE WORLD MISSION SOCIETY CHURCH OF GOD ...🥰🥰
FROM PHILLIPINES WE LOVE YOU ...🥰🥰
So you believe now in determinism, but only that God determined that the gospel will reconciled God with His covenant people but God did not determined that Jacob
will become the Nation of the covenant people.. And that is not ism? that is Jesus?
I can see hidden hypocrisy here...
I like to be more gentle with the term hypocrite. But I agree generally with your comment.
Definitely an “ism” in disguise. But they’ve a sincere heart and I don’t think they’re intentionally acting hypocritically.
@@eg5646, Thanks..
John Macarthur needs to see this. Maybe it could clear things up for him.
@sooner1867, It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo
So your reprobate?
@reynaldodavid2913
11 - 13 is only saying that man has no part in the election of God but it is His election alone that will stand.
Yes, He could do that and we would have to accept yet the whole counsel shows us different.
That if one is able to take part in the office of election he must believe in the one that God had fulfilled all His will, Jesus!
He is too busy telling other Christians they cannot hear The Holy Spirit and that God cannot use the miraculous gifts for today......
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo The verses you cited say nothing about salvation. God will show mercy when he chooses. God has chosen to show mercy on any that choose to follow him. Clearly it would be unjust for God to create people simply to send the to eternal damnation and torture without ever giving them a chance to repent. That kind of God would contradict the very loving nature of God which he can not do.
SOOOOO GOOOD!
2023 God still hates Esau
God chose Israel (Jacob) to be a blessing to Esau and ultimately to all of us, the nations. He did this to widen his love for all the nations. Not narrow it.
@@elaineauo esau (caucasians) is going to be enslaved in the kingdom Revelation 13:10. Jesus is Black, God is Black they even mistaken the Apostle paul for an Egyptian like how white people falsely accuse black people Acts 21:37-39
@@elaineauo The Elder shall serve the Younger
@@elaineauo you do realize Jesus went to egypt as a newborn to escape King herod right
Wait the passage is telling you it's about ELECTION...NOW THE QUESTION IS ELECTION TO WHAT.....WHY IS THE PURPOSE OF ELECTION STANDING.
You jumped through a lot of hoops to get to your conclusions, explain Ephesians Chapter 1, or John Chapter 17, or John Chapter 6 it’s all through out the Bible.
a 'Christian' that thinks he came to the realization that he needed a savior is 1 of the most arrogant things a Christian can say... Change my mind ?
At about min 16 or 17, you asked the question of does God send babies to earth with the stamp of heaven or hell on them. First, let me say right along with you that is the most horrifying idea in the world, anyone who could believe that has a very very very very wrong view of who our amazing and beautifully Triune LORD of lords and King of kings is!! I love the idea that I once heard that makes Romans 9:13 the most beautiful verse, and one that totally disproves the whole "ism" idea that you are countering above. Yes, I am in agreement with you that that is utterly anti-Biblical regarding Romans 9. In the case of 9:13, which agrees with your idea that the above idea of babies being sent to earth with a determinism-type of stamp is something that God would NEVER do!! Instead, this source suggests that Romans 9:13 "As it is written, Jacob I loved but Esau I hated" is actually portraying the following:
1) We are all sinners worthy of hell! Because of the fall, through Adam, we have all been tainted with sin.
2) Because of this, when we read the last part of Romans 9:13 regarding the hating of Esau, it makes total sense. We have also rejected and sinned against the Thrice Holy, Sovereign, Triune LORD of lords and King of Kings. Thus, God should truly hate us all. This is why Paul can feel justified in saying that he would give his life for his brothers if that were possible so that they may be saved! He understood that he, nor they deserved it and actually didn't want to be with God (Romans 3:9-10). The reason that the final part of Romans 9:13 is perfectly justified, fair, and not at all counter to a loving, God, is that we spit in His face and went against is very Law (The Ten Commandments).
3) When we read "Jacob I loved" if we truly understand who we are as sinners and what we have actually done to the LORD of lords and King of kings, we should read this verse and say "WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can this be. This must be a mistake!!", and we should be crying out with Isaiah in the temple, that we are unworthy of being in the very presence of the LORD as we have unclean lips (we are sinners at our very basic level of humanity). Yes, we can do good things, but naturally we do them for our own gain. In some way, naturally (meaning unbelievers) humans do things on some level to gain something, there is NO truly unbiased act of good for the unbeliever, and although there may be repentance, it is only for themselves truly (to make the other person not dislike them, to make themselves seem the better person, to ease their heart...) it is never an act truly devoted to God. Thus, this statement from Paul is seems like utter nonsense when we stop and think of just how horribly we have broken God's Law, the God who created the entire universe, created mankind to love Him and for His own pleasure and purposes!
Based on the above, instead of God sending "stamped babies", what if in contrast, ALL of us come to this earth, owing to our tainted bloodline as a result of the Fall (see Psalms 51:5), as sinners only worthy of hell and headed in that direction, who actually desired to be without God (see Romans 3:9-10), and yet, because of His amazing mercy, instead of saying everyone will be in hell (as that is what would happen if God decided to base Salvation on what we wanted and deserved in Romans 3:9-10 especially as when we sin, the only one we truly sin against, is God Himself (see Psalms 51:4)), what if instead, God, for some reason that we simply could not comprehend, decided to ensure a remnant was with Himself for all eternity in heaven. Wouldn't it be the most amazing thing to not be given the judgement and punishment you rightly deserve and think you even want, and instead be given a new spirit, a new hart, and then have your eyes fully be open to see the amazing gifts of life, grace, and faith that God has given you (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:8-9) before you did anything to deserve it (Romans 5:8), even though you thought it was the very thing you would have hated and were running from (Romans 3:9-10), and it all happened before you could've even made a decision to choose God (John 3:3; Romans 5:8) and in place of the wrath you actually deserve (Romans 5:9)? If that is not who God is, then honestly, I want absolutely NOTHING to do with that god, as that is not the Sovereign, Amazing, Thrice Holy, Immutable, Impassible, All-Powerful, Awesome, Invincible, Great, Good, Righteous, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Righteously Wrathful, Just, Kind, Glorious LORD of all Creation!! AMEN and AMEN!!
Oh, and by the way, if you were curious, the idea of stamping babies is known as hyper-Calvinism and not at all what Calvin himself believed or taught, what I have posed, is what is taught by Christ, the Apostles, Paul, and yes, even Calvin! I am 1000000000% against hyper-Calvinism and an proudly Reformed and confessional and will gladly stand with the brave, heart-convicted, courageous, and Biblically sound men and women of the Reformation who were willing to give their very lives for the amazing and beautiful Truth of Biblical Theology that they stood behind!!
I think part of what you’re getting at in infralapsarian vs supralapsarian views. I can’t explain them entirely right now but you actually explained the distinction pretty well without specifically using the terms.
Yay, more ism’s. Hah
we are all stamped for hell , not by God's choosing , yet rather, the curse of Adam (which you could debate 'unfairness') but using that as an emotional plea is disingenuous at best
Close, but here's the truth. The verse says " What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" So here "which he had afore prepared" refers to the "riches of his glory", so it's "which" referring to "riches' not "whom" referring to "vessels" like NIV says. Use KJV and rightly divide the word of truth.
Romans 9:8
King James Version
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Acts 2:32-33
King James Version
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
[04/21, 16:06] Esme Van Der Merwe: Romans 9:8
King James Version
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
[04/21, 16:09] Esme Van Der Merwe: Acts 2:32-33
King James Version
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Why is there SO much obsession with calvin -- one way or another?
Just stay with scriptures that tell us to come to Jesus and He will NOT cast you out.
However, if you do come to HIM --- He absolutely chose you.
Scriptures declare that we ARE dead and unable and unwilling to come. ---- just believe it and do not let it HURT your pride.
Just thank HIM that IN MERCY HE CHOSE to save you
12:38! Sounds just like the calvanists I meet! Exactly! It's so much more clear of a point of view of romans 9 in context! Calvanism is extremely wrong!
Wow you guys are dancing around the real point of God's choice.
Why must it be everyone, the whole world, anyone born in the history of time?
Because God is just, God is love, and God is no respecter of persons.
Determined mercy not blessing. Don't twist the text
Is mercy not a blessing?
Too much digression in the presentation. Frustrating for me.
Hermeneutical gymnastics you got your workout. Now explain all the other verses and scripture talking about God's choosing specific individuals
No gymnastics needed when you understand context and stay on track with Paul from the rest of the book of Romans. It's really quite effortless.
@@GreatLightStudios yeah so effortless that's why whenever you used to read it, it used to offend you because you knew what it meant. Now it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside because you have twisted it. I believe you are still wrestling with it may God help you with that.
@@Thinking-Biblically Yes, just like I used to be troubled by Jesus' command to "hate your father and mother" and wrestled with what it on the surface seemed to be saying. A little understanding of context and audience brings much clarity. "Warm and fuzzy" feelings are a nice bonus to sound exegesis 😁
@@GreatLightStudios you hate Calvinism so much because you think it makes God mean or something or it makes him not good. Anything that got uses to do is good it wouldn't really matter what it is we are not him. Was it not good of God to destroy the world except for Noah and his family? But if we did that it would have been wrong because we are not God. There are many things like this in Scripture. You do everything you can to try to disprove Calvinism at every point instead of agreeing with their points you always find a way to interpret it differently. There is no private interpretation and there is nothing new and if it is new it ain't true
@@Thinking-Biblically
Calvinism is the ultimate private interpretation
Does the Calvinist god in his sovereignty determine everything, absolutely everything ?
You seem to think that because the Jews had a prideful attitude that people today are better. We are NOT better than Paul's people --- Paul says we ARE ALL corrupt. We are all pride filled about ourselves. Israel was just like us. God im mercy chooses some to be saved. His ways are not our ways. We want to make God in our image and put our " fairness" conception on HIM
If you say Romans 9:11 Predestination is inaccurate, where humans DO have free will, then you're saying your god infact doesn't know all things before they happen, correct ? Is your god all knowing or not ? If he is, then surely he knew your predestination, correct or not ?
A weak misguided exegesis of Romans 9, to say the least.
I would also add sincere, winsome, thoughtful, even loving. But agreed-it’s overall weak.
Obadiah 1:18" And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it." God still hates esau
So much eisegesis in this video… why not just stick to what Paul is actually stating instead boxing in the issue in precluding a single view… if your case is so strong, why not let your view simply bubble up??
Poor work.
???? You make such a clear scripture so confusing. There is no eternal punishment also, so no this isnt about stamping people going to hell and this is why you do all these mental gymnastics
Scripture is clear that the unbelievers go into the lake of fire: read it yourself.
@@rabbit4111 the lake of fire is eternal?
@@DoctorLexus-4PresidentYes !
God seems to harden, when the e miracles are happening, saw them
..obviously it does..
Jason Villanueva Your an Israelite and you need to keep the commandments and faith in Yeshua, So we can get up out of America and go back to our Homeland Israel, Heaven has 12 gates
You’re missing the point. Paul’s point of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart should shatter your view of God. God shows mercy and He hardens whom He sovereignly chooses. Why didn’t God soften his heart? By God showing mercy to some and distributing justice to others is His choice. We don’t earn favor with God by choosing Him. That is not grace. Grace is when God chooses us! He did so in eternity past, Ephesians 1:4.
Tell me where is the zion that the Bible is talking about?
Hi, what specific scripture are you referring to. Can you share a specific verse please?
@@GreatLightStudios can you explain this prophecy? Obadiah 1:18" And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it."
@josephbachota, It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
So your reprobate ?
@jasonmason6909, It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
So your reprobate ?
yes it does very much so you bare very wrong in what your satying
It is indeed biblical that God predestined the elect to be saved even before they are born and predestined the reprobates for damnation even before they are born.. The best example of that is Romans 9:11-13.. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was revealed by Jesus Himself in the Parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13...
So your reprobate ?
Not all Israel is Israel. This means not all of them born Israeli according to the flesh are the true Israel according to the Spirit and the seed, not of many but of one, in the promised seed in which the Messiah is born, are they children amen.
Romans 9 verse 8 says the promise the Holy Spirit is the children of the promise (The Holy Spirit) are counted for the seed.
@esmevandermewe6106 Yes, all though that may be, but the promise began in Genesis 3 in the seed of the woman which of course speaks of Jesus but not only Him but all the children of the promise, which is God.
God is the promise, as He can swear by no other: Hebrews 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
If He can swear by no other than He is the promise; Saying; surely...
His Word is also His promise, Jesus Christ. Saying, being His Word and surely, is for confirmation.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
So when He said I will make you a father if many nations He has already fulfilled, because God cannot lie, vs 18
Therefore if God says it, it is a confirmation of its fulfillment. Therefore, whenHe said in Genesis 3: "it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." It was a confirmation that Jesus would crush Satan and His children, the children of the flesh. The Hoky Spirit is a part of the promise confirmed by a Word.
See, the traditions of men are the surface of knowledge of God.
God is showing me things that will be hard to accept at first but if you will empty yourself and by becoming humbke you can find the deeper things of God.
In the end, the children of the flesh are the children of satan, fitted to destruction and the children of God are counted for the promise God made to us in Genesis 3:15, to life, the Holy Spirit it's the confirmation, the seal of our salvation.
Therefore all israel are not the children of God but the true Israel, which are the children of God, are counted for the seed, which are enmity with the children fitted to destruction.
Acts 2:32-33
King James Version
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Romans 9:8
King James Version
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The Holy Spirit came on Sarah and formed Isaac and The Holy Spirit came on Mary and formed Jesus in her womb. The children of promise. We get baptised with the Holy Spirit which makes us seed of the children too.
@esmevandermewe6106 No, Jacob and Esau were of the seed of Isaac. Isaac was the seed of Abraham.
The only immaculate conception was Jesus, where God overshadowed Mary. Why?
God increased the barreness of Sarah and Rebecca and all the other barren women.
Without the promise of the seed of the woman, nothing else is possible.
God forebear Adam's sin and was longsuffering toward all mankind until a day in which He call all men to repent.
STOP ADDING TO SCRIPTURE!
God still hates esau 2023
Lol
The Calvinists’ anti-scriptural arguments seemed much more persuasive when they were able to imprison, torture and kill everyone who disagreed with them. This they did quite regularly. Their use of fire was a tacit admission that their arguments could not hold water. 🔥❌💦🪣
I believe what Paul was doing by quoting Malachi in Rom 9 13 is far deeper than most might imagine. He was right in the middle of explaining how national Israel missed righteousness by thinking it was by the law and how Gentiles attained it by faith. Unbelieving national Israel vs believing Gentiles is the theme. Verse 30 is his conclusory statement.
Was Paul really saying that God hated Esau and loved Jacob to state that God chose Israel over Edom to bring forth Christ? Does Paul really need to tell anyone which nation Jesus came from? Did God have to hate Edom in order to have Jesus come from Israel?
Think about it. Why does Paul reference the physical seed of Abraham (Ishmael) and Isaac, the son of promise, right before referring to Esau and Jacob? What two "nations" were really prophesied in the opening up of Rebekah's womb?