Did Early Church Fathers Believe In the Trinity? Responding to Shincheonji
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- Опубликовано: 20 май 2024
- Did early church fathers believe in the trinity? In this video Jordan is joined by Chris (Shincheonji former member) to talk with Dr. Jonathan McLatchie about the biblical and historical evidence for the doctrine of the trinity.
Watch part 1: Is The Trinity Biblical? - • Is The Trinity Biblica...
In this series, Dr. Jonathan McLatchie provides biblical arguments for the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the trinity to respond to claims of cult groups like Shincheonji Church of Jesus (SCJ or New Heaven New Earth cult).
Learn more about Dr. Jonathan McLatchie:
@JonathanMcLatchie
jonathanmclatchie.com/
talkaboutdoubts.com/
Chris - Shincheonji Ex-Member Testimony Part 1: • Shincheonji Ex-Member:...
Chris - Shincheonji Ex-Member Testimony Part 2: • Shincheonji Ex Member:...
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You said part 2, but I can’t find the part 1 of this Trinity series. Link me please, thanks.
Here’s part 1 ruclips.net/video/V0Uvc39q1ic/видео.html
Looks like some comments have been filtered out, but, I wanted to address a particular comment which attempts to "dismantle" the rule.
The first part is that one needs to also dismiss all of the scholarly work that upholds the rule, including scholars like A.T. Robertson, Thomas Fanshaw Middleton, and Daniel B. Wallace. While there are critiques against the rule, it seems like the grammatical rule has stood the test of time.
A.T. Robertson concluded that "Sharp stands vindicated after all the dust has settled" regarding the application of his rule to texts like Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1, despite objections from scholars like B. Winer.
While the Granville Sharp Rule may have some exceptions and limitations, reputable Greek scholars acknowledge it as a valid grammatical principle when the specific conditions are met:
1. The two nouns must be personal, singular, and not proper names.
2. The first noun has the definite article, and the second does not.
3. The two nouns are connected by "and" (kai) and are in the same case.
When these conditions are satisfied, as in Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1, the construction strongly implies that the two nouns refer to the same person or entity.
While acknowledging issues like exceptions and limitations, these respected Greek grammarians are presented in the search results as recognizing the underlying validity of Sharp's rule when the specific article-noun-kai-noun construction is met in the Greek text. Wallace and Middleton in particular are cited as making robust arguments for upholding the rule's legitimacy when properly qualified and applied.
Lastly, and thankfully as shown in the first video of this series, these aren't the only verses that clearly show the Deity of Christ.
Also there is more than one GS rule
If there are exceptions then it cannot be applied as a universal rule. That’s what the argument is, respectfully.
@@jordandthornburg
Thanks! Just like how in English, there are exceptions to grammatical rules, there are also exceptions to grammatical rules in Greek. I am confused as to why this is problematic.
@@examiningthescj8176 could you give me an example in English so I know what you’re talking about?
@@jordandthornburg
Sure, a classic example of an exception would be the "I before E" rule. Words with "ei" not peceded by "c" and not sounding like "a":
Neither, height, sleight, height, freight, etc.
words with "ie" after "c":
Efficient, deficient, ancient, conscience, species.
Other irregular words:
Caffeine, protein, seize.
I see a lot of upset people in the comments. Let’s be very honest about this. God is a Trinity. Denying such is a denial of His character and nature. True Judaism also believed in the Two Powers of Heaven or two Yahweh figures and this idea gained much prominence in the period between the Old and New Testament. Ancient Jews and Christians believed and believe respectively in a God Who is more than one person.
Darkness hates the light. Looks like this video struck a chord with the SCJ cultists.
No, but neither did people always believe in gravity. They did experience it.
Does your faith require the sacrifice of God Himself? - WW
Is it not the case that the shorter version of Ignatius' Letter to the Ephesians given in the standard volumes is actually the middle recension, since that is considered to be the original or best? I think that the actual short recension and the long recension are both considered spurious.
*Edit:* Oof! Ignatius' Ephesians 7:2, with which I am thoroughly familiar has a huge error in translation there (or two typos). It is supposed to say "... first passible, then impassible", not "possible, then impossible". The OCR messed that one up big time, I'm guessing.
Is that what the text said or is that Jonathan’s accent?
@@jordandthornburg That's what it showed on the right-hand side of the screen that he was reading from, so he read it right, but it's the wrong words.
@@Real_LiamOBryan weird. Do you have the time stamp?
@@jordandthornburg No, but I'll go find it right now.
@@jordandthornburg It should read: "... πρῶτον παθητὸς καὶ τότε ἀπαθής, ...", first passible (or suffering), and then impassible (or non-suffering).
*Edit:* added a missing colon.
Do you understand that there are unitarian Christians that are not a cult? Have you listened to proper responses to these so called trinitarian verses?
Yes we are aware that there are Unitarian christians who arent a cult.
This is why in the title of the video, it includes the name "Shincheonji", a group that shows all of the red flags of a cult.
Unitarians are in a cult. Cult = false religion. You can't be saved and think that Jesus is anything but God. We must confess Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9). What does that mean? Paul explains in Romans 10:13 Paul quotes Joel 2:32 - "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". If you review Joel 2 that Lord is Yahweh, the one true God. 2 Peter 2 discuss false teachers as those who deny the Master who bought them - Jesus Christ. Just because someone makes a Biblical argument doesn't mean they aren't in a cult - Mormons, JWs, and many others all make Biblical arguments for their positions and are not saved. Interestingly each of those false religions primarily departs from Christianity on what point? WHO JESUS IS. They all deny the Truth of Jesus, just like Unitarians.
Unitarianism is a cult by definition
To say that the doctrine of the Trinity was well defined all the way from the apostles to Niceea is pure dishonesty. Even Tertulian did not have the same understanding of the Trinity as Niceea, what are you talking about?
"To say that the trinity was well defined all the way from the apostles to Nicaea is pure dishonesty."
I believe that the point of the video was to show that it is incorrect to claim that both the Deity of Christ and the Trinity was established at the Council of Nicaea. Sure, precise language was needed and defined due to the Arius controversy, but to make the bold claim that both concepts were established during the Council of Nicaea shows an ignorance of history.
@@examiningthescj8176 all Niceea does is show you that there were disagreements, and yet one of the groups won and declared the other group heretical, and later even started killing anyone that disagreed with their definition of the Trinity. Now think about how could unitarian christians survive in this scenario? It wasn't until the 1400s when the unitarian view (which denied the pre-existence of Christ) started getting visible again, and even then, the unitarians were hunted and killed
@@EnHacore1
```
all Niceea does is show you that there were disagreements, and yet one of the groups won and declared the other group heretical
```
Did you watch the video? Or even care to do research on this topic at all? This is exactly why videos like this are necessary.
The purpose of the Nicaea creed was to address Arius, and the council was filled with bishops who up until that point of the council, faced severe persecution, Jonathan addressed this claim in good detail. It wasn't even a close call, as after the votes were cast, the overwhelming majority supported Athanasius. You have to recall, these men looked like war veterans, who weren't going to change their mind on their beliefs and compromise easily.
After Arius lost the debate, he was exiled, and yet he still gained a lot of political influence, so much so to the point that even Constantine was baptized by an Arian Bishop.
There's another video that dives into greater detail about the Council of Nicaea, called "The Truth About the Council of Nicaea", by Inspiring Philosophy. The first sentence that you stated is just, categorically, and historically, wrong.
```
ow think about how could unitarian christians survive in this scenario? It wasn't until the 1400s when the unitarian view (which denied the pre-existence of Christ) started getting visible again, and even then, the unitarians were hunted and killed
```
While this is an unfortunate and terrible event, what does this have to do with the Council of Nicaea? This is a good example of "moving the goal post" by trying to switch topics.
✝️ WAS, MELCHIZEDEK, “immaculate conception” child taken as also in revelation, GOD ALMIGHTY ELOHIM
🌹IS, IMMANUEL JESUS CHRIST, “immaculate conception, some say revelation the child “Jesus is taken”
🕊AND TO COME, JOHN 14:26, IMMANUEL JESUS CHRIST CAME IN FLESH AND MANY MISSED HE, JOHN 14:17
✝️🌹🕊GOD BLESS ALL, SHALOM
DO NOT BE SO SURE THAT THE SON OF MAN IN REVELATION IS IMMANUEL JESUS, AS WITH RED EYES AND A SWARD COMING FROM HIS MOUTH, ALSO AS A LAMB “standing” WITH HORNS AND A MULTITUDE OF EYES, AND A NAME THAT ONLY HE KNOWS BUT HIM SELF, “Jesus is known to be “sitting” ON GODS RIGHT SIDE, THE LAMB STANDING ON MOUNT ZION WITH THE 144000, AS IMMANUEL JESUS CHRIST COMES MOUNTAINS SPLIT PUTS FOOT ON MOUNT OF OLIVES , A TREE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RIVER, SHALOM
JOHN 14:26, 14:6, 3:3-5, THEN REPENT OF YOUR SINS,
REVELATION 2:17, I RECEIVED A WHITE STONE, IT JUST MYSTERIOUSLY APPEARED IN MY KJV BIBLE,
REVELATION 3:10, 20:6, 7:14
OPHANIM 🛸
✝️🌹🕊GOD BLESS ALL, SHALOM
I RECEIVED A BIBLICAL MESSAGE 5/22/2020, STARTED NEW JOB AT DOING THE LORD’S WORK, SON OF MAN, FEEDING THE HUNGRY, SHALOM
I WAS DIPPING A PIECE OF BREAD INTO A BOWL OF OLIVE OIL, THEN MY HAND JUST WENT DOWN ON THE EDGE OF THE BOWL, THE OIL SPLASHED UPON MY FACE AND HAIR, I HAD KNOWN OF QUEEN ESTHERS FASTING, SO I RESEARCHED THE HEBREW TRADITION OF ANOINTING, SO I THEN WENT THREE DAYS NO FOOD OR WATER AND ANOINTING DAILY, AS I BELIEVE GOD ALMIGHTY ELOHIM, HAD A HAND IN THIS HAPPENING, SHALOM
MELCHIZEDEK, FIRST BORN OF THE DEAD , SHALOM
1 Corinthians 10:4b
They drank of that spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. (KJV)
Since this verse mentions the Israelites in the desert, the desert wanderings become the “remoter context” against which one must check any interpretation. As we have already noted, there is no reference that can be brought forward to show that Christ was either with the Israelites or was somehow following them around. Are there verses that show that the Israelites were looking forward to the Messiah? Yes, many. The Passover Lamb foreshadowed the Messiah. The manna anticipated Christ being “the true bread from heaven.” The Tabernacle, with all its offerings, foreshadowed Christ in many ways, including being the place where people would meet God. The High Priest was a type of the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. It was in the wilderness where that great prophecy of the coming Messiah was given: “A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel,” and “their kingdom will be exalted” (Num. 24:7,17). There is no question that the lesson from these verses is that the people looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and “drank,” i.e., got strength and nourishment, from knowing that he was coming.
You raise a fair point regarding 1 Corinthians 10:4 and how it relates to the deity of Christ. Here is my understanding based on the information provided:
The verse states that the rock which provided water for the Israelites in the wilderness was a spiritual metaphor or type pointing to Christ as the true sustainer and life-giver.
This connects to the broader biblical theme of Christ being the fulfillment of Old Testament foreshadowing about the coming Messiah.
While the verse does not require a literal pre-incarnate presence of Christ with the Israelites, it does metaphorically identify Christ as the spiritual rock and source of sustenance, much as God alone was the sustainer of Israel during the Exodus.
This metaphorical equation of Christ with the role of divine sustainer aligns with other New Testament passages that ascribe divine attributes and prerogatives to Christ.
Learn to read the appositive phrase. In the Bible, specifically Revelation 1: 1-3, in the New King James Version, people without a crutch can NOT see a trinity. Good luck rationalizing it.
English Grammar
Cool, and where in the video did they mention Rev 1:1-3 and the Trinity?
Are you also going to ignore the overwhelming amount of scripture and historical evidence?
What Jesus Came To Do
Separate tares from the wheat
Matthew 13:40 (KJV)
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Did not come to send peace
Matthew 10:34 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Division
Matthew 10:35 (KJV)
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Luke 12:53 (KJV)
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
As you can see
These things he has done .
His assignment is fulfilled , finished.
Wow, way to miss the most important part of what Christ did on the cross, his death, and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), and alongside how we are now able to approach the Father as Jesus is our mediator (1 Timothy 2:5) and how he gave us the Holy Spirit, not allowing the gates of hades to not succeed against his church (Mt 16:18).
@@examiningthescj8176
No one dies for your sins .
Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
@@jimharmon2300
Ah okay, you are of that opinion. Right now, I am mostly focusing on Christian sects that claim to be "Christian", and yet are really a "wolf in sheep's clothing" as seen in Matthew 7:15.
If you want to debate someone on that topic, I would recommend you reach out to Jonathan on Talk About Doubts, or even Sam Shamoun who addresses these claims.
@@examiningthescj8176
Already assigned me a pigeon hole , thanks .
Religions and doctrines separate men .
One GOD , FATHER of all .
@@examiningthescj8176
Speaking of debates .
From what I have seen .
Makes Jesus’ words so true .
Matthew 24:11 (KJV)
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.
Why inconsistency? 2Th1:12 has two persons , not one.? Rom9:5 God over all blessed forever is speaking of the Father. Paul applies this language to the Father only. 2Cor 11:31 And Christ is a flesh human in Rom9:5 Christ is an anointed man. Jn8:40 Ac17:30,31 1Cor10:9 can be translated: the Lord instead of Christ. Dusputed passages dont prove your doctrine. Trinitarian bibles are biased.
Norton makes some great points and shows the irrelevance of the Granville Sharp Rule in “proving” the Trinity. Because no ambiguity between Christ and God would arise in the minds of the readers due to the omission of the article, it can be omitted without a problem. Likewise, there was no need for a second article in Matthew 21:12 in the phrase, “all the [ones] selling and buying,” or in Ephesians 2:20 in the phrase, “the apostles and prophets,” because no one would ever think that “sold” and “bought” meant the same thing, or that “apostles” and “prophets” were somehow the same office. This same is true all over the Bible. There is no need for a second article if no confusion would arise without it. The “rule” therefore begs the question. It can be made to apply only if it can be shown that an ambiguity would have arisen in the minds of the first century readers between Christ and God. Because the whole of Scripture clearly shows the difference between Christ and God, and that difference would have been in the minds of the believers, the Granville Sharp “Rule” is not a valid reason to make Christ God.
While you have a valid critique, I do not think it would wise to just dismiss the Granville Sharp Rule.
Considering that there are many biblical scholars across the theological backgrounds that are in agreement with the grammatical rule, it is a hard sell to just drop it all together.
Then we have the many attributes that are assigned to Jesus, including worship and unity with the Father, as explained in the first video in great detail, I find it hard to just completely dismiss the grammatical rule.
Examples like Matthew 21:12 are not true parallels, as they link two distinct groups rather than two substantives referring to the same entity. The Granville Sharp construction is consistently used elsewhere for the latter purpose.
@@examiningthescj8176 which scholars who accept it do not hold to the deity of Christ? That would be a true test of non biased conclusions.
@@jordandthornburg
That's a fair point.
Sir Anthony Buzzard, a Unitarian Theologian, agrees with the Granville Sharp Rule. Of course, he disagrees with the interpretation of the verse Titus 2:13, and has a different argument about how it does not show the deity of Christ.
@@examiningthescj8176 I’ve never heard him agree with it and think I’ve heard him disagree with it. Could you show me where he said he agrees it is a rule?
@@jordandthornburg Looks like my previous comment was filtered out. This is the annoying part about RUclips comments, comments may appear or disappear.
According to the website, Biblical Unitarian, quoting Buzzard on page 130:
"A wide range of grammarians and Biblical scholars have recognized that the absence of the definite article before “our Savior Jesus Christ” is quite inadequate to establish the Trinitarian claim that Jesus is here called ‘the great God’ (p. 130)."
At least in this instance he did not attack the grammatical rule, but instead, attacked the interpretation and questioned whether or not the rule can be applied. I'm willing to correct my statement and change my mind if you can show me a quote of how he directly disagrees with the grammatical rule.
The early church fathers were unitarians and subordinationists ,not trinitarians.
That’s false. Denying the Trinity is denying God Himself since it’s a matter of His very nature and character.
more talk, no god. keep it up i'm kind of convinced that the decline in church attendance is down to these channels, why do you need this contact reassurance that religion is real even. i can understand apologists trying to cover up god's immorality and trying to "harmonise" contradictions, but if god is "personal" why isn't he doing this "in person"? why are there so many denominations and conflicting opinions? i think it's all toss, made up drivel.
@Harry
✝️ WAS MELCHIZEDEK , GOD ALMIGHTY ELOHIM
🌹IS, IMMANUEL JESUS CHRIST
🕊AND TO COME, JOHN 14:26, JOHN 14:17
SHALOM
Angels Or Man
Angels can speak for GOD , as GOD , with the authority of GOD .
Many examples of this .
Genesis 16:10 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Exodus 3:2 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.
Numbers 22:35 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Judges 2:1 (KJV)
And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
All these are Angels speaking for GOD , as GOD .
The Angel of the LORD said “ I “ he was just speaking for GOD as GOD in all these verses .
That's great. Never knew angels could accept worship as God, be omnipresent like God, and show other attributes exclusive to God!
@@questionsaboutscj9664
Hope you are not being sarcastic but read the scripture.
Without adding to it .
@@jimharmon2300
Yea, I was being sarcastic.
I did respond to you in another thread, instead of having more than one spin off, it becomes hard to keep track of things, and sadly RUclips comments tend to be glitchy.
Brothers, I understand you are trying to do a good thing by exposing this cults, but saying that being antitrinitarian means you are in a cult, is complete nonsense. Focus on their behavior and control, not on what their version of pre-existence of Christ is. This is not good material.
I'm a subordinationist which is totally biblical and true Jn17:3 1Cor15:24,27 1Cor11:3 Jn14:28 and I don't belong to a cult. No one has to believe in a trinity to be saved since SS never once says: God is three.
No. Focusing on the Trinity is a great response to bon-trinitarian cults!
Not believing the trinity doesn’t mean you’re in a cult - it means you’re a heretic. 😅
Just because you don't believe in the trinity, it doesn't mean that you are a cult. You should know better than to associate denial of the Trinity with cults. The first 150 years the ealry church had no notion of Jesus as the second person of the Trinity, much less the Holy Spirit as a separate person of the Trinity.
Great!
"Just because you don't believe in the trinity, it doesn't mean that you are a cult."
Good thing in the title of the video, it includes the following:
"Responding to Shincheonji".
@@examiningthescj8176 then why even use the trinity as a response? Go after other issues of their theology and behavior
@@EnHacore1
We are.
@EnHacore1
I'm confused. Why are you dictating how Jordan should respond to SCJ? You appear angry that he responded against SCJ's claims, but have no qualms against SCJ itself.
Watch part 1 here: ruclips.net/video/V0Uvc39q1ic/видео.html
Jesus
Jesus is just a messenger of the word of GOD not GOD .
A son of GOD not GOD the FATHER.
He shows us that when he shows us how to pray .
Matthew 6:9 (KJV) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
He did not say pray to him , but to the FATHER.
Matthew 12:50 (KJV)
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
He will be all things to you but not your GOD .
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
How more clear must it be ?
These tell us about Jesus . That he is a messenger only and not GOD .
John 3:14 (KJV)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Look what happened with the serpent.
Numbers 21:8-9 (KJV)
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
2 Kings 18:4 (KJV)
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
See how Jesus compares himself to the serpent .
So we don’t make the same error .
Isaiah 42:1 (KJV) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:8 (KJV) I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
He is a faithful servant of the FATHER.
Same as we must be .
If he was GOD the FATHER why would he deliver the kingdom
to the FATHER ?
1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
This just shows Jesus is to be honored but not worshipped.
Moses was honored NOT worshipped.
Matthew 12:50 (KJV)
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mark 3:35 (KJV)
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Never says he is to be worshipped nor be your GOD .
Hey hey, hope you are well! Just on that last line there about him not being worshipped. The disciples worshipped Jesus after He walked on water. Matthew 14:33
A healed blind man worshipped Jesus. John 9:38 states, "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshipped him."
Matthew 28:17 notes an occasion after the resurrection of Jesus when all of the disciples worshipped Jesus. We are told, "when they saw him they worshipped him."
Matthew 28:9-10: And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Thomas worshipped Jesus when he saw Him alive again. John 20:28 teaches that Thomas responded, "My Lord and my God!"
Luke 24:51: While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy
Hebrews 1:6: And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Revelation 22:3: No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
@@Annieintheworld
First we must ask what is GODs commandment’s say .
Exodus 20:3 (KJV) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Is Jesus the man a god ?
For GOD says
Numbers 23:19 (KJV)
God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Jesus says
John 4:24 (KJV)
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Luke 4:8 (KJV)
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Then does GOD test ?
We call it testing , GOD calls it proving .
Abraham with his son , going to sacrifice him .
Genesis 22:12 (KJV) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Sure you know the story .
Exodus 16:4 (KJV)
Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Exodus 20:20 (KJV)
And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Judges 2:22 (KJV)
That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep [it], or not.
Many others where GOD proved peoples faith or not .
Like it reads Jesus never asked for worship but directed all worship to The FATHER.
Same GOD that walked with Adam and Eve is with us today .
@@jimharmon2300
```Exodus 20:3 (KJV) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.``
OK, and just to add more verses to steel man this claim:
Isaiah 48:11, Isaiah 42:8, and many more.
```Numbers 23:19 (KJV)
God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?```
You are right, God is not a man, that he should not lie. Reading a verse in its context is important, and we should be careful not to take away from God's word.
```John 4:24
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.```
This is also correct, God is in Spirit, just like how Jesus was before his incarnation, as shown in Philippians 2:5-8:
"5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing, by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-even death on a cross!"
Jesus was to be exalted back to the Glory that he shared with his Father, as seen in John 17:5.
God taking on human nature isn't anything extraordinary, nor is it impossible for God to do.
```Like it reads Jesus never asked for worship but directed all worship to The FATHER.```
And yet in Revelation 5:13, we can see how the Son receives the same worship as the Father.
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
If Christ was only a creature or agent, it would not make sense for him to receive the same worship and glory as the Father.
We also see Jesus being credited for the creation of all things in Hebrews 1:10-12:
10 He [the Father] also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
So we have the Father, saying to the Son, how in the beginning, the Son "laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands".
Isn't this something that the Father exclusively did? Isaiah 45:12 makes it clear that God alone is the creator. And Isaiah 45:18 makes it clear that God is the creator.
Yet, Jesus is being accredited to be the creator in Hebrews.
Yes, we can see Jesus being exalted, as when he took on the nature of humanity, he was in his state of humiliation, a state where he restricted his own Glory.
@@questionsaboutscj9664
Philippians 2:5-8
Jesus was in the form of GOD . All men are .
GOD made man in HIS image Genius the 6th day .
John 17:5
When have not all of us prayed a similar prayer?
What man did not come from GOD .
All Souls are mine says the LORD .
GOD can do all things but two .
Lie or break HIS word .
HE said HE was not a son of man , so was not nor never will be .
Revelation 5:13
Read again please .
We can honor , praise , or glory .
I don’t see worship as you added .
We are commanded to honor our mother and father .
We can praise someone being promoted , exalted.
We can glory over some one being blessed .
Worship is a whole different animal .
When did Jesus receive the Spirit , Holy Ghost?
The way it reads
When he came out of the water .
It light upon him as a dove .
And then he went to the wilderness to be tempted.
As you seem to believe.
Would not the tempter already know him ?
The demons did that he cast into the swine .
We must make sure we have the correct Christ .
Mark 13:22 (KJV)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
So many natural men are trying to teach Spiritual things of GOD .
All we can do is introduce fellow man to GOD , GOD will teach from there .
Deuteronomy 4:29 (KJV)
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
1 Chronicles 16:11 (KJV)
Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV)
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
GOD the FATHER spoke with much symbolism , Jesus spoke in parables.
Sorry , got a little carried away .
@@jimharmon2300
```
Philippians 2:5-8
Jesus was in the form of GOD . All men are .
GOD made man in HIS image Genius the 6th day .
```
This is a good example of taking away from scripture. Let's go ahead and see what the verse says:
In verse 6, it says the following:
"6 Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; "
How can a man even claim equality with God? No man can ever make such a claim without it being blasphemy.
"7 rather, he made himself nothing, by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. "
So, this same person, Jesus, made himself "nothing" by taking the very nature of a servant. So, the point of this passage is to emilate Jesus's humility, that he did not consider his equality with God something to be abused, and instead, made himself a servant being made in human likeness.
8 "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-even death on a cross!"
This let again reinforces the idea of Jesus taking on flesh. Please do not take away from the Bible.
```John 17:5
When have not all of us prayed a similar prayer?
What man did not come from GOD .
All Souls are mine says the LORD .
GOD can do all things but two .
Lie or break HIS word .
HE said HE was not a son of man , so was not nor never will be .
```
Let's actually read the verse:
" 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."
I never shared the same glory with the Father before the creation of the world, because I did not pre-exist before my birth. Also, for a creature to make such a claim would yet again be blasphemy.
```
Revelation 5:13
Read again please .
We can honor , praise , or glory .
I don’t see worship as you added .
We are commanded to honor our mother and father .
We can praise someone being promoted , exalted.
We can glory over some one being blessed .
Worship is a whole different animal .
```
Yet again, taking away from the Bible, breaking Revelation 22:18-19:
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
Both the Lamb and the Father are receiving the same glory, the same honor, and the same praise from all of creation.
We see that the Son, is receiving the same glory, honor, and praise as the Father, in an equal way, something that God does not share. You are contradicting the Bible, as seen in Isaiah 48:11, Isaiah 42:8.
```
When did Jesus receive the Spirit , Holy Ghost?
The way it reads
When he came out of the water .
It light upon him as a dove .
And then he went to the wilderness to be tempted.
As you seem to believe.
Would not the tempter already know him ?
The demons did that he cast into the swine .
We must make sure we have the correct Christ .
Mark 13:22 (KJV)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
So many natural men are trying to teach Spiritual things of GOD .
All we can do is introduce fellow man to GOD , GOD will teach from there .
Deuteronomy 4:29 (KJV)
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
1 Chronicles 16:11 (KJV)
Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV)
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
GOD the FATHER spoke with much symbolism , Jesus spoke in parables.```
Great, and let's go ahead and see what the Bible says about this:
Collosians 2: 1- 4:
"I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is."
It is clear that you have a different Christ, something that was warned about a few times. You are going down the parable rabbit hole, and I'm assuming you may also go into a rant about Matthew 13:11-15, reference the wheat and the tares / weeds, and then talk about your hidden, new secret knowledge that you and your group may have, right? I hope not, but if so, look into the Gnostics.