The Potter and Clay in Romans
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- Опубликовано: 23 июн 2024
- Romans 9 is the core of Calvinism's doctrine of irresistible grace in the eternal salvation and condemnation of individual people, yet this chapter isn't even about eternal salvation! Paul's use of the potter and clay analogy is from Isaiah 29 that speaks of God's temporary hardening of Israel because of their sins. They blinded themselves with pride, so he blinded them further to ensure that his judgment would be carried out, with the intent that the nation would eventually repent and be restored.
From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (www.AmericanTorah.com).
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The potter and the clay is from Jeremiah 18, taking about the nation of Israel once again, not individuals!
The potter and clay metaphor is used a few times in the OT. I think Isaiah 29 is a better fit with Paul's specific words, but you're right that it says essentially the same thing. If Israel (or any nation) sins, they should expect God to act against them. If they repent, God will restore them.
Hey Jay, why did you choose to put “Torah” in your channel name? Are you a Messianic Jew?
Thanks for asking! No, I'm not Jewish. My mission is to teach God's Law (Torah) to Christians. Everything that Jesus and the Apostles taught was based on Torah (and the Prophets), and churches have neglected that foundation for too long.
I'd direct you to my statement of faith, but my website is down at the moment. Hopefully that will be fixed soon.
Your ultimate conclusion isn’t wrong, no one is cut off, or hardened permanently. So Romans 9 isn’t teaching Calvinism.
But there’s a very odd thing going on in Romans 9 that isn’t usually caught correctly by modern readers. There’s a reason why Calvinists find so much support in this chapter.
Your point about the real teaching of the potter analogies in the OT aren’t that God picks and chooses winners and losers, and Paul’s conclusionary statements in chapters 10 & 11 prove he doesn’t ultimately teach that either.
So why isn’t Paul more clear in chapter 9? Why does he throw verse 13 in there at all? He didn’t need it.
The answer is: he is correcting Jewish misuses of all of these texts. The majority of the OT references in Rom 9 were all being used badly in Jewish arguments as supposed proof texts for the idea that God chose the Jews and hated and cast out all Gentiles. So Paul is bringing up these references and using them sarcastically, in reverse.
When he quotes “Jacob I loved but Esau I hated,” he’s saying ‘you Jews love to spout how much God loves you and hates the Gentiles, quoting this verse in Malachi, but what if it’s true that God does love some and hate others? Wouldn’t it be the case that it’s the Gentiles he loves, seeing as how they’re the ones following God’s son now, and wouldn’t you be the Esau now, seeing as how you’re hating the son?’
It’s the same with the potter analogy. Ultimately, Paul’s point is that God does not choose only some people, he loves all people. But what if you were right and he did choose? Wouldn’t it be you Jews who are the vessels of wrath?
Yes and no. I completely agree where it concerns eternal salvation, but God clearly did choose one nation to be his special possession. He says so explicitly. That doesn't exclude anyone else from a relationship with God, and it doesn't even really exclude individuals who were not born Israelite from becoming Israelites, not by circumcision or any other conversion process, but by faith, just as with Rahab and Ruth.
@@AmericanTorah Right, but the reason why I asked if you had a Jewish background is because in certain sections of the NT, and Romans 9 is key among them, the authors were addressing incorrect Jewish teachings, so it’s of paramount importance to know what those errors were in order to be able to understand the authors’ corrections.
If you spend time talking with Jews, even today, about theological issues you’ll find very quickly that they believe, and have always believed that the OT teaches that God loves them, and does not love the Gentiles. Much of what Paul writes in several of his letters is written to correct that bad scriptural misunderstanding.
Yes, God chose the Jews to be his special people, exactly like how God chose David to beat Goliath, but the Jews did take that to mean God excluded all non-Jews.
In Romans 9 Paul is throwing that errant belief back in their faces in reference after reference. I write of some of this in my book, link is in my about page, and I have a longer book solely on Romans 9 on its way.