Another brilliant episode! As an Australian I detest Macarthur for his blatant lies about the effectiveness, and contribution of Australian forces during the New Guinea campaign, as a retired Naval Officer I further detest Macarthur for his lies and false attacks on the heroic efforts of the USN and USMC and finally as a student of history I hold a seething hatred of Macarthur for all the times his tactical incompetance and vanity based strategic planning cost the lives of thousands of allied soldiers, sailors, marines and even greater numbers of innocent civilians across the PTO, especially Phillipinos. As always Seth and Bill thanks for your incredible work!
My observation over time of the various claims about MacArthur in Australia confirms the comments above, diggers hated him, including for not going to the Philippines, held back in 'clean ups' for New Guinea, Solomon's and later Borneo. However, his big advantage for Australia was that he worked effectively with our Prime Minister, which probably negated all those negatives he owned. Without US equipment supplies, we were never going to be as effective as we ultimately were, which, by the way, we paid for in full as the war progressed.
Both of my grandfather's, one an Army Surgeon in Burma in '44 & '45 with the rank of Major and the other an enlisted man in the Army Air Corp in the Pacific for the duration, despised MacArthur. As a kid that was all I needed to know. As an adult, after reading about MacArthur, it showed me how correct my Granddad's were.
Bill and Seth at their very best! They excel when it comes to these "grand strategy" discussions. In this episode they seamlessly interweave the military situation on the ground, the overwhelming advantages of the US forces by 1944, the geopolitics with the critical aspect, in this case, of the domestic politics. It's a salient reminder that whatever bipartisan goodwill there may have been after Pearl, the return to vicious partisan politics has come back by mid 1944. The war will clearly be won in both Europe and the Pacific, so normal service is being resumed. Excellent stuff.
This is such an excellent series/podcast. So much in depth conversation and enlightenment. Even today, I had no idea of the dealing of Mac and FDR. He was an egomaniac and kind of an ass as well. He tried the same “one-ups-manship” on Truman and got fired. Seth and Capt.Bill are doing an outstanding job with this series.
Agreed. And with such gentlemanly discourse.Very little talking over one another because of the smooth handoffs back and forth. Although Bill gets a little tong tied when his blood gets a bit up when he's getting angry and words are inadequate. He's a genuine Italian on a stallion in those moments.!!
I have been watching your series from the beginning. I Have only 1 problem, Considering yourselves as unauthorized does undermine the ability to impart a complete and insightful commetary of the pacific campaigns of World War II. I feel that each episode is a thieses quality product to be cherised by all who value history Thank you for your huge labors.
The most important consideration was political, so it's the PI. Formosa would cut the life blood of Japan, strategically the clear choice. Perhaps if King was in Honolulu to debate Dumbass Doug, the proper course of the Pacific War would be accelerated.
I take the "Unauthorized" as Tongue in Cheek in Extremis. They base their exposition on solid documentation or materials themselves that have solid foundations.
The Baltimore was my dad’s ship. He boarded the ship on the Baltimore’s return journey back to the “Big Blue Fleet.” He was 17 at the time. Great podcast gentlemen!
This was an excellent episode. Loved the infighting between King and MacArthur. I especially enjoyed learning just how big Mac's ego was, making the President of the United States wait. Rude, disrespectful but full of himself. The segment about the arguments presented by King, MacArthur, Spruance and others as which target the United States would attack, Formosa or the Philippines was very insightful. But I was especially intrigued to learn from your research how Spruance wanted to go straight to Iwo. I never knew that. But listening to this episode, going to Iwo would have been daring. An island too far? Probably not, but would it have shortened the war? Probably not. It is true that if the United States took Iwo in mid-1944 it would have given the newly minted B29s a base to hit Japan, but Invading Iwo Jima would not have hastened the development of the atomic bomb. In addition, Japan in mid to late 1944 was not yet at the precipice of mass starvation nor on the verge of disruption of its political system as it would find itself in late 1945. A lot to learn from this episode, gentlemen. Thank you.
My Father was a Navy Corpsman in the Pacific. He hated Mac and refused to say the name of the local airport named after him. He also refused to keep any FDR dimes. I was allowed to have any that he had as change when he came home from work. These dimes paid for many model ship & aircraft kits.
Still another home run hit by Bill and Seth in this Pacific War series. Until now, I never understood why Taiwan was abandoned as an objective by the JCS in 1944. Another fantastic presentation.
First let me say that I was so glad to have discovered your podcasts. I look forward to them every week, I enjoy listening while driving for work. I realize that you still have many episodes to do before reaching the end of the pacific war but I do have a suggestion for an episode after the pacific war is completed. It would be interesting to hear your take on how MacArthur was finally held accountable for his ego driven screwups in Korea. It seems to me that Truman was not as forgiving as Roosevelt was towards MacArthur. My grandfather was stationed in Japan with the 1st Cav before the Korean War and was with them all the way to the Yalu. When the Chinese came in he was trapped behind the lines for 4 days. To me this was just the final example of MacArthur's screwups going back to his gross negligence starting before December 7th. Keep up the good work.
Another great episode! I do want to add a comment about the viability of the Formosa option. You rightly pointed out the logistic difficulties of the attack, and made a glancing blow at the follow-up stage. I believe that logistic support for a prolonged campaign on Formosa, and support for occupation thereafter would have been more than the Navy logistic system could have sustained. That system barely handled the Mariana Islands Campaign, and in fact shorted the attacking force in materials (for instance, unable to supply the desired types of bombs) and couldn't supply enough fresh and frozen food to meet the standard requirements. Even the Official History written after the War admitted this. While the logistic system was indeed rapidly expanding, the additional transit distance to Formosa from the Marianas (the next jump-off point for shipping to the West) meant that turnaround time for the ships was much longer, even assuming that enough supplies reached the Marianas for transshipment. The other factor is that, assuming Formosa was attacked and the Philippines bypassed, is that the logistics train to Formosa would have to sail between Okinawa and Luzon, subjecting it to attack from land-based aircraft. While the logistic problems were solvable with enough time, effort, and diversion of resources (both combat and support), they did present a major problem. The Pacific Campaign had (barely) dodged the logistics bullet up to that point, Formosa risked stretching it past the breaking point. The Philippines didn't put as much strain on logistics.
I really appreciate your doing these videos. As a history buff, I find it quite interesting. You've don't a great job of clearing up questions I've always wondered about.
My father was a naval aviator in WW2. He said the navy despised Mac. Once, when dad went on leave, he went to his parent's farm, and in the kitchen was a portrait of Mac. It was so disheartening for him.
Cool observation. I was a navy brat living with my Father in post war Japan in 1958 . We had a Japanese house cleaner , nice woman , one time I watched her pulling her wallet out of her purse and it accidentally flipped open and displayed a picture of the Emperor she knew that I saw it became she saw my eye brows raised and held it open for me to see and then she showed me the picture on back and that was Mac ! So I asked her why she also had a picture of Mac and she said that “Because he brought Peace to our country AND because he gave the Japanese Women the right to vote ! I also saw a billboard in Yokoska that said Mac for President LOL !!
@@oceanhome2023MacArthur got the reverence and worship that he so coveted in this life from the Japanese people, who were liberated as much by the USA victors as were the people the Japanese had been abusing for 4 or 5 years under their boots. The US policies under the Marshall plan were historic in the annals of human history. ❤ The outcomes of the rehabilitation of people from the depths of wartime deprivation and death all around, is right out of Matthew Chapter 5. "Love your enemies" It works. We are living with the results of hate filled decades after the US Civil War, and the assassination of President Lincoln which denied the USA the only person whose leadership and heart could have stopped the people who plundered the South and took advantage of the emancipated but helpless slaves. His Marshall Plan for the South would have healed the country. Instead...we got the usual Hatfield and McCoy residual of a bitter family fight. Still goin' on.
@@oceanhome2023 Thanks for sharing. I believe that there is plenty of room on both sides of the argument on his performance as a field commander. However I do feel that salient contribution to the conflict was the rebuilding of Japan. I'm not sure if any other field commander in either theater could performed as well.
Wow! You have both outdone yourselves again. This has always been a 'missing piece' in my appreciation of the Pacific War. It's now been filled with a presentation that oozes substance, nuance and lucidity.
I took later sleepers this morning and did not get up at 4:00 AM. Excellent work on the topic. If everyone had looked in detail at what Spruance was pushing, we could have Hail Stoned Pelieu and by-passed the remainders with very few costs and instead hit Iwo before they were dug in...a lot of good men died in the Pacific for egos.
You guys are the best! Always over-delivering! Your work is so crucial to our Nation, and the allies of our Nation, past, present, and future! Thanks again!
The blood bath at Iwo would have been avoided. WOW, I knew that Iwo was poorly defended in the fall of 1944 via Saburo Saki’s (Samurai) Book but didn’t know about Spruance’s strategy. What a sad and lost opportunity that Spruance provided but ignored by supposedly smart people. The Marines pay for their mistakes in blood.
great video gentlemens, the depth of your analysis is astonishing and the naval expertise brought by Bill really help understand the impact and reasoning behind the plans made at that time
Set and Bill, both of you have talked about both MacArthur and Nimitz. It seems to me that Nimitz grew as the war went on, while MacArthur was to an extent left behind by the war. He had his moments, but I wonder if another officer might have been a better choice. Hindsight is 20/20, so we will never know. Great show as always.
A VERY interesting episode. You did a good presentation on the personalities involved. With the advantage of hindsight, the Formosa operation would appear to be a very large committment for the available resources. My usual area of study is the ETOUSA and they were already in a manpower crunch in the fall of 1944. Operation Market-Garden had drawn the Allies further north than originally planned. The frontline was stretched and short of divisions. There were still some US Army divisions in deploying to Europe, BUT the US was just about at full mobilization of the available manpower. Those 500,00 men for Formosa would have to come from somewhere. On the line of alternative history, either the early capture of Iwo Jima or the full invasion of Formosa would have required some response from the Japanese Navy. The potential sea battles certain are interesting to speculate on.
I always enjoy your podcast and this one was particularly interesting. The meeting at Heavy Cruiser Baltimore where MacArthur was late upstaging the President was a pre curser to his exact same treatment of Harry Truman at their famous Wake Island meeting during the Korean War.
Thank you Seth and Bill. What an informative episode. A half-dozen or more new pieces of information I'd never heard or read. My late grandfather, whom I never met, served aboard LST574 and was part of the Invasion Force of Lingayen Gulf in this operation. I had only broken bits of vague info. about his experiences while on the ship. I only recently realized how "hot" the skies and waters around Luzon and Lingayen were during that invasion. Kamikazes and IJN subs were plentiful. Your WWII Pacific channel continues to be one of the very best on the web.
My Grandfather was on Landing ships. More specifically he was part of the Royal Marine complement on board the LSI(L) - Landing Ship Infantry, Large) HMS Glengyle. Manned one of the beach support landing craft armed with mortars. As a result he was directly involved during all the major landings in the ETO, and a lot of the Commando operations launched by the Glengyle and her sisters. At wars end HMS Glengyle was with the British Pacific Fleet getting ready for the invasion of Japan, something my Grandfather was not impressed about. I can see his point, as he had been aboard since she was commissioned, and had taken part in every amphibious operation she had been involved in since that time (1940). In all that time he never had home leave... Almost six years before he saw home again, that was how busy those ships were...
I have watched every episode of your series with anticipation gaining new insight with each. Episode 323 revealed information I had no knowledge of despite being an undergraduate history major focused on Asian History and a retired Foreign Service Officer with assignments in Taiwan, China and the Philippines (where I currently reside). I agree with the previous commentator, this episode would easily have been a better graduate thesis than the one I did and will effect my next discussion on the topic. Bravo gentlemen!
I have been watching your series since you started and as a student of history, have enjoyed every minute. A salute to both Seth, Bill and allow your guests who have added so much background to the Pacific War. Thank you again for your great series. Time is 11.10 am 03/05. /Martin
After the end of the first day of the conference, FDR asked for an aspirin because "No one had spoken to me the way MacArthur did today." As part of the research for his 3 part series on the Pacific War, Ian Toll was able to obtain the diary of Robert C. Richardson, who was the commanding general of Army forces in Hawaii and who hosted MacArthur during the conference. MacArthur debriefed him extensively after the meetings. That diary reveals a very different story on this conference than MacArthur documented in his memoirs.
MacArthur's war record is spotty at best. Some good and definitely some bad. However, his role as Supreme Commander in rehabilitating Japan after the war was remarkable. He remains a hero in Japan and South Korea, So his record is quite complex and it's worth understanding the man in his totality.
Just to add to your comments, MacArthur was the driving force behind the invasion of Inchon and the defeat of NKA forces in South Korea. He certainly made his share of mistakes, but it would be disingenuous to not give credit where it is due.
Definitely a flawed but brilliant individual. As Capt Toti has said in other podcasts "always the smartest man in the room". In reality sometimes he was. And sometimes he wasn't. IMO his two biggest flaws were self promotion. And surrounding himself with sycophants as staff officers. His war record in the Southwest Pacific definitely has its low points. Starting with Buna Gona. The Australian troops under his command performed well. The US formations initially did poorly. The Australians had been seeing action driving the Japanese back across the Owen Stanley's for months previously. The 32nd ID was thrown in untrained and physically out of condition. Whatever their training state when they arrived at Ft Devens outside of Boston in early 1942 for shipment to the UK the next months would see them back on trains to San Francisco. Board ship for Australia. Once in Australia prepare fresh camps, move. Several times. Before the first units were shipped to Port Moresby. By the time Buna was over the 32nd would set several firsts. The first US division shipped overseas in a single convoy during WWll. While being one of the first US divisions shipped overseas. One of its infantry regiments being the first deployed to an active combat zone by air. And by the time the war ended it would see more days in combat than any other US division during WWll. It was still engaged in combat operations after the Japanese capitulated on August 14th, 1945. And then the 32nd instead of going home was sent to Japan on occupation duty. Aside from the official division history one of the best sources on them is Ghost Mountain Boys. One of the books in the reading list. I reccomend the audio version as it really puts the emotion into the personal letters included in the book.
Actually go learn what MacArthur did before WW2 while he was in Japan and the Philippines- then you'll truly understand why he was a great man in most people's eyes back then and remains so in that part of the world even now. He may have let himself get a bit carried away for the camera and press, but in reality, away from the camera, he very much was a very bright and good man, wouldn't have gotten where he did if he wasnt.
I was hoping for a discussion of this important event in the conduct of the pacific war. Gentlemen, you did not disappoint. It is always easy to look at things in hindsight, but entirely another thing to to view decisions made in light of the information and politics of the time.
It’s hilarious to me that while King and Mac are bitterly arguing about the Phillipines vs. Formosa, Spruance is in a back room looking at an actual map and putting plans together for Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
Given MacArthur’s ego and desire for power/authority, one has to wonder whether Eisenhower’s decision to run for President in 1952 was not motivated, at least in part, by his feeling that his former boss, MacArthur, should NEVER hold office?
I've always thought it would have been poetic justice for Eisenhower, a general Mac considered beneath him, to have fired Mac during Korea. I bet that would have infuriated Mac more than Truman doing it. But unfortunately for that the timing was wrong
Eisenhower was no less ambitious than MacArthur. He was just extremely smart about how he used influence and power through quieter and more subtle means.
Could be. Looking back over the years we know that IKE had let personal dislike to fowl his professional relationship with General Devers, the second ranking officer in the European theatre. This although General Marshall had a very high regard for Devers. Ike slighted Dvers in every way even though Devers Command of Sixth Group was arguably better than Bradley’s, at least after the breakout from Normandy. Anyway, Devers got his fourth start before Bradley in 1945 despite IKE opposition to this, People fault McArthur’s self promotion at the expense of subordinates like Eichelburg and Griswald, The lack of publicity about Devers despite his Outstand word in England, In the Mediterranean, and later in Europe is amazing. in retrospect.
After three episodes covering the hellscape of Peleliu, spending some time on statecraft and logistics was very interesting. Keep up the great work Seth and Bill!
touché Bill, "I shall return". That was a cool way to end this very informative episode. Good job to both of you guys. I will say "Dasvidaniya" Goodbye until next week.
Great video, ‘military history visualised’ also covered this about 5 years ago and concluded in hindsight attacking Formosa instead of Philippines was not a better idea, as Formosa was held by much stronger forces and there was still the risk of the Japanese fleet which might not have turned out as favourable as Leyte Gulf. One quote I love about MacArthur is that “the best and the worst things you hear about him are all true”.
What is the name of the video? Formosa was also Japanese territory not Chinese (Formally I mean.) so it probably had more purchase than the Philippines. Do you know if Japan had the mainland nearby under their control? Surely Formosa would be protected by them?
I've followed you since the beginning of this series. This episode is my favorite by far because of the new things I learned today, specifically the intelligence uncovered by the Chiefs of Staff. Five Star episode.
Another great episode, as always. Iwo Jima in 1944 may well have been the best option. Not fan of Mac, but Formosa was not the best option for all the things you said, albeit that it was in a better strategic location, when compared to Luzon. The one thing that perhaps you didn’t go into, which was of importance, was the terrain of Formosa. That would have been, without a doubt, the most difficult of the Pacific war. An island about 400km in length and 150km wide at its widest point, with a spine of mountains running down the island where more than 200 peaks are above 3000m in elevation, and the highest point is 3952m. Climatic zones from tropical up to alpine tundra. The east coast is mountainous with no real landing options, and the west coast has huge tidal mudflats with few suitable landing beaches. As you said, Formosa/Taiwan had been colonized by Japan in 1895, so 49 years already by 1944. The population had been mobilized for war service. This was a hostile civilian population, probably not quite as hostile as native Japanese, but certainly far from friendly. An invading force would have to fight the indigenous tribes in the interior, which would equate to fighting the Takasago on their home turf. Teruo Nakamura, the last holdout to surrender in December 1974 was a Formosan Takasago. A campaign on Formosa likely would have become bogged down very quickly, and may well have dragged on for a year or more.
One thing to consider when talking as armchair strategists regarding WWll. The availability of landing craft and troop transports when planning amphibious operations. The numbers of Higgens boats, Amtrak's, LSMs, LSTs, LSM(R)s and troop transports was not unlimited. The same applies to Naval fire support and air cover. After Overlord a large part of the vessels devoted to the amphibious operation then had to be dispatched to the Mediterranean for Operation Dragoon in Southern France. Then a large part of that had to head west for Leyte. The landing operations in the Philippines were as large or larger than Overlord or Dragoon.
One thing to consider when talking as armchair strategists regarding WWll. The availability of landing craft and troop transports when planning amphibious operations. The numbers of Higgens boats, Amtrak's, LSMs, LSTs, LSM(R)s and troop transports was not unlimited. The same applies to Naval fire support and air cover. After Overlord a large part of the vessels devoted to the amphibious operation then had to be dispatched to the Mediterranean for Operation Dragoon in Southern France. Then a large part of that had to head west for Leyte. The landing operations in the Philippines were as large or larger than Overlord or Dragoon.
It's hard for me to assess which was the best option not knowing all the logistical issues. If the Phllipines were the jumping off point for an invasion of Japan, why did we go to Okinowa and Iwo, why not straight in from the Philipines? If we had to launch a massive invasion of Japan from Iwo, or Okinowa were there sufficient harbors, runways? etc. If we launched an invasion from Iwo or Okinowa wouldn't we have to worry about Japanese airfields on Formosa and the Philipines? Unlike the English Channel which is only twenty miles, the Japanese would have been able to see an invasion fleet to Japan coming from miles away and have time to mass defenses - so the closer the better. But if Iwo and Okinowa were where we would launch the invasion from why was Formosa or the Philipines even an issue. Also I think it may have been reasonably predictable given what we had experienced so far, that massive collateral damage in Manila and else where was to be expected if we invaded there.
I agree that bypassing Formosa would be best option. But disagree strongly that Formosan/Taiwanese oeople would be hostile to allies. People living there are Chinese who suffered under Japanese imperialism.
Very worthwhile topic for you guys to cover. Never knew there was so much drama involved in the decision. I have had little respect for MacArthur since the bungled defense of the Philippines early in the war. Shame they didn't let Spruance go after Iwo Jima when he wanted to. Interesting topic in how this pretty well maps out the balance of the Pacific war. Thanks Seth and Bill!!
I forgot today was Tuesday!! But I woke up to an absolutely brilliant exposition of the puzzle that had to be solved to get to a plan to end the war as expeditiously as practicable. With the MacArthur histrionics as part of the foreground noise and distraction clouding the fluid situation, the second best option emerged supreme. Thank God for General Leslie Groves, Paul Tibbets, and the Success of the Manhattan project, because even at the end of July 1945 Japan😮😮 wasn't DONE! Japan was still capable!😮
I am not a military mastermind, I believe generally speaking closest is best for logistics for example but how exactly would any of this be better if Formosa was taken? Indeed in our timeline many Filipinos were saved and Japan fell anyway.
1. Before judging MacAuthur, suggest reading Wilkepedia or Manchester’s “American Caesar” accounts. MacAuthur was personally brave and unlike King, Eisenhower, Nimitz had been in combat and had shot and been shot at. He was 3rd in his West Point. He saved the Army from being halved by FDR during the Depression. 2. Japanese Philippine Invasion. Mac retired from the Army in 1937. He was recalled in July 41 at age 61, 5 months before Pearl. The Phillipine’s many islands and long coast make it indefensible from invasion. So the plan (that Bill Toti mentioned) was to defend Manila. When Mac recycled, he revised the plans to defend by interdicting the Japanese with the then new B17. The B17 could strike a fleet anywhere in the archipelago. (Later horizontal bombing ships disproven, but not at this juncture) Directly after Pearl, MacAuthur had his B17s scouting for Japanese according to his revised plan. The Japanese struck when the B17s were refueling -think Midway dejavu- and his Air Force destroyed. No one knew the Japanese had planes with range to strike Clark Field from Formosa. The surface U.S.N. shoved off and the submarines with faulty torpedoes were useless. His revised plan in shambles, Mac reverted to the original plan to fall back on Bataan with logistics consequences as Bill T. relates. 3. Corregidor. The U.S. needed a hero, Mac fit the bill. He could not be responsible for his lionization in the States, but I’m sure it would have suited him. But Washington, to buy time, led him on with hope of relief. When Washington pulled the plug I’m sure it left him with a bitter distrust of Marshall, King, and FDR. 4. Australia and the road back. Mac had to rebuild virtually from scratch. He had the second worst logistics trail (worst CBI theater). All he could do in 1942 was whine. Further embitterment and paranoia given his ego centricism Buna was a close run thing, but Mac learned. Henceforth his strategy was hit ‘em where they aint’ which worked well except when intelligence (Willoughby) SNAFUd. Manchester claims Mac took the most territory with the fewest casualties. 5. Return to the Philippines. There were 1.1 million Japanese troops in China in 1945. The Formosa strait width is 110 miles. Formosa is a 90 mile long rock. Suitable landing sites are on the China side. Peleliu had gutted the Marines. As to be seen in Leyte, the IJN still had teeth. The question was not whether the Philippines or Formosa, but what the hell was King thinking? Mac is always controversial, either saint or satan. Be sure and get both sides of the story. A man with such a long career is sure to make mistakes, but also made good moves. Cheers
I found this presentation especially interesting. I think I have watched just about every podcast and history related presentation about the Pacific war on RUclips. When I first learned that McArthur had 10 hours after Pearl Harbor to ready the garrison on the Philippines for the coming Japanese attack but let them be sitting ducks, I could not believe he was regarded as such a brilliant war hero. Whenever MacArthur’s name comes up, other historians’ perspectives are similar to yours. This is especially true regarding MacArthur’s disrespectful treatment of Australia’s military command and troops. I think you two would be particularly good at developing and hosting a standalone series focusing on the people aspects of critical events of the Pacific war. As just a few examples, who were the personalities involved before, during, and in the aftermath the Guadalcanal campaign, the battle of Savo Island, the raid on Makin Island, the invasion of Attu and Kiska, and battle of Midway? And how did the personalities involved, and their decisions influence the outcomes and aftermath?
Bill's 'What if' on China brings to mind a 'What if' I have been having regarding Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. What if we had cultivated Russia to become working partners instead of what we, the West did. I think it very possible that Ukraine would be neutral, whole and not suffering the casualties she has suffered.
Well, I do not think "we the West" did any really. I do not think what is going on with Russia had any relation to what "West" did or did not do. And I know something about it.😄
The wicked witch of the swamp, Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland is gone. Our policy concerning Russia was developed mostly by her over the last decade. If there is karma, she will expire in a very slow painful way.
@@jwingo7257And what exactly we can do about it? And with soviet army in north China? Do "Korean war" in China? In country with then population like 500 million?
Stalin's paranoia was going to interfere with any attempt at peaceful relations post-WW2. And considering the USA already had one Red Scare after WW1 and there was real Soviet spies in the atomic bomb program even before WW2 ended I really don't think lasting peace, harmony, and partnership between the two sides was ever really possible by 1945.
Guys,the fact is the allies would have an advantage during and thru out the invasion by having thousands of phillipine gurillas joining the fight.Also, the U.S had thousands of troops and civilian inturnees imprisoned on the island.The U.S. had an obligation to free those who were living under hellish conditions as soon as possible.Just my humble thoughts guys.
Australian POWs were abandoned by MacArthur. 2000 died on Borneo in the Rinau to Sandakan death march. There was an Australian plan to free them before the March but MacArthur vetoed it.
@@kensvay4561 "The blame for the operation's failure was the subject of much controversy once the full reports of the camps death toll were received. General Thomas Blamey and other Australian officers attempted to shift blame onto General Douglas MacArthur on the grounds that he did not provide adequate air support. However, such reports imply that the Allies were on the brink of action and have been proven to be inaccurate. It is generally assumed that the decision to call off the operation before the surveillance was completed was made by the Australian military." I have no clue about this, I am not claiming this is true but Wikipedia.
Franklin Roosevelt was always wary of MacArthur and his political aspirations. Ten years before the subject of this podcast in 1932 Roosevelt was commenting on the populist Huey Long, calling him “one of the two most dangerous men in America.” He then said “The other one is Douglas MacArthur.”
Chris,in my mind I think Franklin had something to do with his death.Huey Long was the most popular politican at the time of his death,and said in public that he was going to be the next president.
First visit here and just find this a first rate presentation. Observation of King’s name in the title brought me here and I was not disappointed. How the Chicago reporter almost blew the j2 advantage. First I have heard that. I will be back. :)
Mao stated that the reason he was able to come to power was due to the Japanese invading China & the Nationalists spliting their fighting between the Japanese & the Communists. (Oddly similar to how Lenin & the Bolsheviks came to power during WWI.) Taking Mao at his word means Imperial Japan is the reason for a Communist China. Lastly Spruance's idea of an Iwo invasion in Nov. '44 was worthy of serious discussion.
@@kimmoj2570 invading Formosa (Taiwan) would have been a VASTLY different operation than either Okinawa or Guadalcanal. For one, when it comes to size, Okinawa is about 877 square miles, and is rather narrow. Guadalcanal is about 2,060 square miles. Formosa is 13,976 square miles (about 15x larger than Okinawa for reference) and has significantly better defensive geography. There are few naval approaches to Taiwan that are suitable for an invasion due to terrain that would be nearly impossible to get armor and supplies through. Most of Taiwan is covered in very steep terrain, and almost half the island (the east) is just a mountain range that would be ludicrously difficult to push the Japanese out of or even bomb them out of. I wouldn't say it would be impossible for the US to take it, but i think there's a good chance the casualty figures would eclipse all the other pacific island invasions several times over.
MacArthur was a total Type-A personality. Love him or hate him is usually the only way to approach someone like that, and it's no wonder when you count all his detractors. Bottom line is that 'they' (the political and military leadership class) could not win the war without Mac. With all the bluster and noise about him through commentaries like this aside, history will always come back to the fact his big, huge, annoying and infantile ego and overall personality kept America invested in the winning effort and support of the Pacific Theater. His personality had its uses. Mac was a great general. And History will always bear that out, and remember him as one of the greats.
One factor influencing the process was the fact that an Australian force in the Timor had been discovered to be still alive and fighting in 1942. They were resupplied and finally pulled out by 1943 but this reinforced the idea that significant unknown US forces may be still active in the northern Philippines. Similar events in Burma and Thailand will have fed into it there forces were known but delays lead to them being wiped out. Mack may have mentioned these cases.
I have just finished watching-rewatching-the first episode about Pearle Harbor. Have rewatched several. Just as interesting the second time. Captain Toti, you have mentioned being in the Pentagon on 9/11. Have you published your story about that day? Would make interesting reading.
I am lead to wonder what kind of resistance we would have encountered in Formosa, especially seeing what we encountered in Luzon and Iwo and Okinawa...
I read about the Cornelius Bull press briefings in Ian Toll’s recent trilogy. Are there any memoirs or other sources with more information about them? What I would give to have been a fly on the wall in those get togethers.
This Formosan😅 terrain was like Italy...with no Italians. It would have been a ridiculous situation, and murderous beyond any expectations, and probably the tolerance of American mothers.
Your logic is sound regarding heading directly for Iwo Jima. One question that occurs to me is the response of the IJN. We all know what transpired in the Battle of Leyte Gulf. How would the IJN have responded to an earlier invasion of Iwo? What sort of naval battle might have taken place, with what results? While I would expect the USN to win any such battle, the range of potential outcomes is huge.
Once again, the larger conflict that is going on the Asian Continent is ignored. Much of the value of the Formosa first plan was keeping Chinese troops in the game and tying down the largest portion of the Japanese Army on the Continent. It turned out that the Japanese offensive of 1945 would have prevented any advantage to the Formosa offensive. The Japanese offensive unfortunately facilitated the Communist takeover. Probably the most significant and enduring consequence of the Asian Pacific War.
From my USN Father's and two uncles perspective with their experiences in the SW Pacific as regards MacArthur, they despised the man, so much so that when adm. Will Halsey assumed immediate command of them, it was almost as if Jesus Christ himself had intervened. MacArthur knew this and despised Halsey for this. Footnote: to this day the photo of Halsey I inherited from my father is in a place of honor on our family portrait wall.
Whenever I think upon MacArthur I think about George B. McClellan of our civil war. Both seemed to enjoy taunting and insulting Presidents while building a case for Presidential nomination. Whereas McClellan always overestimated the numbers of his opponents, it seemed that MacArthur always underestimated the numbers. Both seemed to share a predilection for claiming the credit for any successes they achieved through the actions of their subordinates, while blaming any failures on said subordinates. Both were brilliant, but tainted by their egos. I appreciated Bill Totti's analysis of Ray Spruance's idea of taking Iwo Jima in 1944. Brilliant work Bill. I know that counterfactuals are looked down upon by many historians, but here is one that is worthy of consideration. Well done Seth and Bill.
Do you mean the opposite of this "Whereas McClellan always overestimated the numbers of his opponents, it seemed that MacArthur always underestimated the numbers." Admiral Ernest Joseph King was a big part of Five-Star General Douglas MacArthur's victory for example.
The Philippines are my first memories, I know the look, the smells all the way from 1968. Been to Bataan, Corregidor, Death March… Jeepneys, Nipa huts, carabao, stinky balut 😂
Had we bypassed and went directly to Iwo, what do you think the Japanese response would have been. Did they still have enough Navy at that time to muster a meaningful counterattack?
This is so weird, for some reason I woke up after some dreams or ??? last night thinking about 'Dug Out Doug'. LOL no way. 2/5 same morning this drops. You guys are to blame. Love the series.
Another brilliant episode! As an Australian I detest Macarthur for his blatant lies about the effectiveness, and contribution of Australian forces during the New Guinea campaign, as a retired Naval Officer I further detest Macarthur for his lies and false attacks on the heroic efforts of the USN and USMC and finally as a student of history I hold a seething hatred of Macarthur for all the times his tactical incompetance and vanity based strategic planning cost the lives of thousands of allied soldiers, sailors, marines and even greater numbers of innocent civilians across the PTO, especially Phillipinos. As always Seth and Bill thanks for your incredible work!
As an Australian i totally agree with you.
Not a fan of Mc Arthur then?
Agreed!
Yes!!!!!!
My observation over time of the various claims about MacArthur in Australia confirms the comments above, diggers hated him, including for not going to the Philippines, held back in 'clean ups' for New Guinea, Solomon's and later Borneo. However, his big advantage for Australia was that he worked effectively with our Prime Minister, which probably negated all those negatives he owned. Without US equipment supplies, we were never going to be as effective as we ultimately were, which, by the way, we paid for in full as the war progressed.
I love the sound of retired former navy Captain Bill Toti’s full intro in the morning.
I hope we have dudes like him in our Navy now!
It sounds like victory….
Can we find a way to make the phrase "The full Bill Toti" as fun to use as "the full monty"?
Both Bill and Seth!@@helenel4126
I can only imagine what both of you would have thought if you had been in the Pacific during this time and knew the truth.
Both of my grandfather's, one an Army Surgeon in Burma in '44 & '45 with the rank of Major and the other an enlisted man in the Army Air Corp in the Pacific for the duration, despised MacArthur. As a kid that was all I needed to know. As an adult, after reading about MacArthur, it showed me how correct my Granddad's were.
Bill and Seth at their very best! They excel when it comes to these "grand strategy" discussions. In this episode they seamlessly interweave the military situation on the ground, the overwhelming advantages of the US forces by 1944, the geopolitics with the critical aspect, in this case, of the domestic politics. It's a salient reminder that whatever bipartisan goodwill there may have been after Pearl, the return to vicious partisan politics has come back by mid 1944. The war will clearly be won in both Europe and the Pacific, so normal service is being resumed. Excellent stuff.
This is such an excellent series/podcast. So much in depth conversation and enlightenment. Even today, I had no idea of the dealing of Mac and FDR. He was an egomaniac and kind of an ass as well. He tried the same “one-ups-manship” on Truman and got fired. Seth and Capt.Bill are doing an outstanding job with this series.
Agreed. And with such gentlemanly discourse.Very little talking over one another because of the smooth handoffs back and forth. Although Bill gets a little tong tied when his blood gets a bit up when he's getting angry and words are inadequate. He's a genuine Italian on a stallion in those moments.!!
Thanks Guys. Because I can.
Putting all this together in one episode was great, much has been referred to at one time or another, but all together is very nice. TY
Always look forward to Tuesday mornings, Gentlemen! Thank you!
Tuesday has become my favourite day of the week.
I have been watching your series from the beginning. I Have only 1 problem, Considering yourselves as unauthorized does undermine the ability to impart a complete and insightful commetary of the pacific campaigns of World War II. I feel that each episode is a thieses quality product to be cherised by all who value history Thank you for your huge labors.
Well said!
The most important consideration was political, so it's the PI.
Formosa would cut the life blood of Japan, strategically the clear choice.
Perhaps if King was in Honolulu to debate Dumbass Doug, the proper course of the Pacific War would be accelerated.
I take the "Unauthorized" as Tongue in Cheek in Extremis. They base their exposition on solid documentation or materials themselves that have solid foundations.
The unauthorized part is what I like about this podcast
I totally agree. Their the best!!!
The Baltimore was my dad’s ship. He boarded the ship on the Baltimore’s return journey back to the “Big Blue Fleet.” He was 17 at the time. Great podcast gentlemen!
Best WW2 history channel ever!
Absolutely
This was an excellent episode. Loved the infighting between King and MacArthur. I especially enjoyed learning just how big Mac's ego was, making the President of the United States wait. Rude, disrespectful but full of himself. The segment about the arguments presented by King, MacArthur, Spruance and others as which target the United States would attack, Formosa or the Philippines was very insightful. But I was especially intrigued to learn from your research how Spruance wanted to go straight to Iwo. I never knew that. But listening to this episode, going to Iwo would have been daring. An island too far? Probably not, but would it have shortened the war? Probably not. It is true that if the United States took Iwo in mid-1944 it would have given the newly minted B29s a base to hit Japan, but Invading Iwo Jima would not have hastened the development of the atomic bomb. In addition, Japan in mid to late 1944 was not yet at the precipice of mass starvation nor on the verge of disruption of its political system as it would find itself in late 1945. A lot to learn from this episode, gentlemen. Thank you.
My Father was a Navy Corpsman in the Pacific. He hated Mac and refused to say the name of the local airport named after him. He also refused to keep any FDR dimes. I was allowed to have any that he had as change when he came home from work. These dimes paid for many model ship & aircraft kits.
Thank you Bill and Seth.
Still another home run hit by Bill and Seth in this Pacific War series. Until now, I never understood why Taiwan was abandoned as an objective by the JCS in 1944. Another fantastic presentation.
First let me say that I was so glad to have discovered your podcasts. I look forward to them every week, I enjoy listening while driving for work. I realize that you still have many episodes to do before reaching the end of the pacific war but I do have a suggestion for an episode after the pacific war is completed. It would be interesting to hear your take on how MacArthur was finally held accountable for his ego driven screwups in Korea. It seems to me that Truman was not as forgiving as Roosevelt was towards MacArthur. My grandfather was stationed in Japan with the 1st Cav before the Korean War and was with them all the way to the Yalu. When the Chinese came in he was trapped behind the lines for 4 days. To me this was just the final example of MacArthur's screwups going back to his gross negligence starting before December 7th.
Keep up the good work.
Another great episode!
I do want to add a comment about the viability of the Formosa option. You rightly pointed out the logistic difficulties of the attack, and made a glancing blow at the follow-up stage. I believe that logistic support for a prolonged campaign on Formosa, and support for occupation thereafter would have been more than the Navy logistic system could have sustained. That system barely handled the Mariana Islands Campaign, and in fact shorted the attacking force in materials (for instance, unable to supply the desired types of bombs) and couldn't supply enough fresh and frozen food to meet the standard requirements. Even the Official History written after the War admitted this. While the logistic system was indeed rapidly expanding, the additional transit distance to Formosa from the Marianas (the next jump-off point for shipping to the West) meant that turnaround time for the ships was much longer, even assuming that enough supplies reached the Marianas for transshipment.
The other factor is that, assuming Formosa was attacked and the Philippines bypassed, is that the logistics train to Formosa would have to sail between Okinawa and Luzon, subjecting it to attack from land-based aircraft.
While the logistic problems were solvable with enough time, effort, and diversion of resources (both combat and support), they did present a major problem. The Pacific Campaign had (barely) dodged the logistics bullet up to that point, Formosa risked stretching it past the breaking point. The Philippines didn't put as much strain on logistics.
I’m very impressed with the pod cast. Gives a whole new view of this theatre
I really appreciate your doing these videos. As a history buff, I find it quite interesting. You've don't a great job of clearing up questions I've always wondered about.
My father was a naval aviator in WW2. He said the navy despised Mac. Once, when dad went on leave, he went to his parent's farm, and in the kitchen was a portrait of Mac. It was so disheartening for him.
Cool observation. I was a navy brat living with my Father in post war Japan in 1958 . We had a Japanese house cleaner , nice woman , one time I watched her pulling her wallet out of her purse and it accidentally flipped open and displayed a picture of the Emperor she knew that I saw it became she saw my eye brows raised and held it open for me to see and then she showed me the picture on back and that was Mac ! So I asked her why she also had a picture of Mac and she said that “Because he brought Peace to our country AND because he gave the
Japanese Women the right to vote !
I also saw a billboard in Yokoska that said Mac for President LOL !!
Was that the photo of MacArthur and Hirohito side by side in his office ? The Japanese elders frowned on the size disparity between the two of them.
Army vs Navy thing.
@@oceanhome2023MacArthur got the reverence and worship that he so coveted in this life from the Japanese people, who were liberated as much by the USA victors as were the people the Japanese had been abusing for 4 or 5 years under their boots. The US policies under the Marshall plan were historic in the annals of human history. ❤ The outcomes of the rehabilitation of people from the depths of wartime deprivation and death all around, is right out of Matthew Chapter 5. "Love your enemies" It works. We are living with the results of hate filled decades after the US Civil War, and the assassination of President Lincoln which denied the USA the only person whose leadership and heart could have stopped the people who plundered the South and took advantage of the emancipated but helpless slaves. His Marshall Plan for the South would have healed the country. Instead...we got the usual Hatfield and McCoy residual of a bitter family fight. Still goin' on.
@@oceanhome2023 Thanks for sharing. I believe that there is plenty of room on both sides of the argument on his performance as a field commander. However I do feel that salient contribution to the conflict was the rebuilding of Japan. I'm not sure if any other field commander in either theater could performed as well.
Wow! You have both outdone yourselves again. This has always been a 'missing piece' in my appreciation of the Pacific War. It's now been filled with a presentation that oozes substance, nuance and lucidity.
Excellent turn of praise phrase..
I took later sleepers this morning and did not get up at 4:00 AM. Excellent work on the topic. If everyone had looked in detail at what Spruance was pushing, we could have Hail Stoned Pelieu and by-passed the remainders with very few costs and instead hit Iwo before they were dug in...a lot of good men died in the Pacific for egos.
Great work gentlemen, as per usual….
Oh my! What a delightful, insightful, and exceptionally informative episode. Thank you, gents. :)
You guys are the best! Always over-delivering! Your work is so crucial to our Nation, and the allies of our Nation, past, present, and future! Thanks again!
Superb episode as usual. Enjoyed it very much, and thanks for all your efforts guys.
A very different episode to the norm, and one I really enjoyed. Thank you.
And as far as music goes, this knocks the ball out of the park. Masters of the Air take note!
I love this episode. I’ve rewatched several times. Seth and Bill and Bill are at their spellbinding best!
Another great episode. 👍 👍
This was a, most enlightening pod cast. I never knew, there was this much intrigued involved at this point in the war
With MacArthur still around...
War is politics by other means, but sometimes politics and war are inextricable. This was a fantastic episode!
The blood bath at Iwo would have been avoided. WOW, I knew that Iwo was poorly defended in the fall of 1944 via Saburo Saki’s (Samurai) Book but didn’t know about Spruance’s strategy.
What a sad and lost opportunity that Spruance provided but ignored by supposedly smart people.
The Marines pay for their mistakes in blood.
@@08silvercs It was not just Marines. It was mostly soldiers.
great video gentlemens, the depth of your analysis is astonishing and the naval expertise brought by Bill really help understand the impact and reasoning behind the plans made at that time
Set and Bill, both of you have talked about both MacArthur and Nimitz. It seems to me that Nimitz grew as the war went on, while MacArthur was to an extent left behind by the war. He had his moments, but I wonder if another officer might have been a better choice. Hindsight is 20/20, so we will never know. Great show as always.
What?
Love listening to your podcast gentlemen.
Thank you for sharing this history.
A VERY interesting episode. You did a good presentation on the personalities involved. With the advantage of hindsight, the Formosa operation would appear to be a very large committment for the available resources. My usual area of study is the ETOUSA and they were already in a manpower crunch in the fall of 1944. Operation Market-Garden had drawn the Allies further north than originally planned. The frontline was stretched and short of divisions. There were still some US Army divisions in deploying to Europe, BUT the US was just about at full mobilization of the available manpower. Those 500,00 men for Formosa would have to come from somewhere.
On the line of alternative history, either the early capture of Iwo Jima or the full invasion of Formosa would have required some response from the Japanese Navy. The potential sea battles certain are interesting to speculate on.
I always enjoy your podcast and this one was particularly interesting. The meeting at Heavy Cruiser Baltimore where MacArthur was late upstaging the President was a pre curser to his exact same treatment of Harry Truman at their famous Wake Island meeting during the Korean War.
Thank you Seth and Bill. What an informative episode. A half-dozen or more new pieces of information I'd never heard or read. My late grandfather, whom I never met, served aboard LST574 and was part of the Invasion Force of Lingayen Gulf in this operation. I had only broken bits of vague info. about his experiences while on the ship. I only recently realized how "hot" the skies and waters around Luzon and Lingayen were during that invasion. Kamikazes and IJN subs were plentiful. Your WWII Pacific channel continues to be one of the very best on the web.
My Grandfather was on Landing ships. More specifically he was part of the Royal Marine complement on board the LSI(L) - Landing Ship Infantry, Large) HMS Glengyle. Manned one of the beach support landing craft armed with mortars. As a result he was directly involved during all the major landings in the ETO, and a lot of the Commando operations launched by the Glengyle and her sisters.
At wars end HMS Glengyle was with the British Pacific Fleet getting ready for the invasion of Japan, something my Grandfather was not impressed about. I can see his point, as he had been aboard since she was commissioned, and had taken part in every amphibious operation she had been involved in since that time (1940). In all that time he never had home leave... Almost six years before he saw home again, that was how busy those ships were...
This is I'm waiting for,the jump to my beloved Philippines,thank you very much guys
Great show gentlemen.
Thanks!
Thanks
I have watched every episode of your series with anticipation gaining new insight with each. Episode 323 revealed information I had no knowledge of despite being an undergraduate history major focused on Asian History and a retired Foreign Service Officer with assignments in Taiwan, China and the Philippines (where I currently reside). I agree with the previous commentator, this episode would easily have been a better graduate thesis than the one I did and will effect my next discussion on the topic. Bravo gentlemen!
I have been watching your series since you started and as a student of history, have enjoyed every minute. A salute to both Seth, Bill and allow your guests who have added so much background to the Pacific War.
Thank you again for your great series. Time is 11.10 am 03/05.
/Martin
After the end of the first day of the conference, FDR asked for an aspirin because "No one had spoken to me the way MacArthur did today."
As part of the research for his 3 part series on the Pacific War, Ian Toll was able to obtain the diary of Robert C. Richardson, who was the commanding general of Army forces in Hawaii and who hosted MacArthur during the conference. MacArthur debriefed him extensively after the meetings. That diary reveals a very different story on this conference than MacArthur documented in his memoirs.
Toll's trilogy is excellent on this period.
Seth & Bill …second to none…GO ARMY 🏈
One of the best episodes! I had no idea they were planning to land on Formosa! 1:15:27
MacArthur's war record is spotty at best. Some good and definitely some bad. However, his role as Supreme Commander in rehabilitating Japan after the war was remarkable. He remains a hero in Japan and South Korea, So his record is quite complex and it's worth understanding the man in his totality.
True. He excelled in Tokyo.
Just to add to your comments, MacArthur was the driving force behind the invasion of Inchon and the defeat of NKA forces in South Korea. He certainly made his share of mistakes, but it would be disingenuous to not give credit where it is due.
Definitely a flawed but brilliant individual. As Capt Toti has said in other podcasts "always the smartest man in the room". In reality sometimes he was. And sometimes he wasn't. IMO his two biggest flaws were self promotion. And surrounding himself with sycophants as staff officers.
His war record in the Southwest Pacific definitely has its low points. Starting with Buna Gona. The Australian troops under his command performed well. The US formations initially did poorly. The Australians had been seeing action driving the Japanese back across the Owen Stanley's for months previously. The 32nd ID was thrown in untrained and physically out of condition. Whatever their training state when they arrived at Ft Devens outside of Boston in early 1942 for shipment to the UK the next months would see them back on trains to San Francisco. Board ship for Australia. Once in Australia prepare fresh camps, move. Several times. Before the first units were shipped to Port Moresby. By the time Buna was over the 32nd would set several firsts. The first US division shipped overseas in a single convoy during WWll. While being one of the first US divisions shipped overseas. One of its infantry regiments being the first deployed to an active combat zone by air. And by the time the war ended it would see more days in combat than any other US division during WWll. It was still engaged in combat operations after the Japanese capitulated on August 14th, 1945. And then the 32nd instead of going home was sent to Japan on occupation duty.
Aside from the official division history one of the best sources on them is Ghost Mountain Boys. One of the books in the reading list. I reccomend the audio version as it really puts the emotion into the personal letters included in the book.
@@philiplangford9434he was awful in korea...got a lot of people killed
Actually go learn what MacArthur did before WW2 while he was in Japan and the Philippines- then you'll truly understand why he was a great man in most people's eyes back then and remains so in that part of the world even now. He may have let himself get a bit carried away for the camera and press, but in reality, away from the camera, he very much was a very bright and good man, wouldn't have gotten where he did if he wasnt.
Love these types of episodes. Gives real depth to what was going on at the time. Thanks for all your hard work.
Great content. Thank you for such an informative podcast!
I was hoping for a discussion of this important event in the conduct of the pacific war. Gentlemen, you did not disappoint. It is always easy to look at things in hindsight, but entirely another thing to to view decisions made in light of the information and politics of the time.
Got to re-watch again today and picked up even more detail. You are doing a great service, God Bless.
It’s hilarious to me that while King and Mac are bitterly arguing about the Phillipines vs. Formosa, Spruance is in a back room looking at an actual map and putting plans together for Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
Spruance was the man.
Not his fault both were failures.
Given MacArthur’s ego and desire for power/authority, one has to wonder whether Eisenhower’s decision to run for President in 1952 was not motivated, at least in part, by his feeling that his former boss, MacArthur, should NEVER hold office?
I've always thought it would have been poetic justice for Eisenhower, a general Mac considered beneath him, to have fired Mac during Korea. I bet that would have infuriated Mac more than Truman doing it. But unfortunately for that the timing was wrong
Eisenhower was no less ambitious than MacArthur. He was just extremely smart about how he used influence and power through quieter and more subtle means.
Could be. Looking back over the years we know that IKE had let personal dislike to fowl his professional relationship with General Devers, the second ranking officer in the European theatre. This although General Marshall had a very high regard for Devers. Ike slighted Dvers in every way even though Devers Command of Sixth Group was arguably better than Bradley’s, at least after the breakout from Normandy. Anyway, Devers got his fourth start before Bradley in 1945 despite IKE opposition to this, People fault McArthur’s self promotion at the expense of subordinates like Eichelburg and Griswald, The lack of publicity about Devers despite his Outstand word in England, In the Mediterranean, and later in Europe is amazing. in retrospect.
Very well said
After three episodes covering the hellscape of Peleliu, spending some time on statecraft and logistics was very interesting. Keep up the great work Seth and Bill!
touché Bill, "I shall return". That was a cool way to end this very informative episode. Good job to both of you guys. I will say "Dasvidaniya" Goodbye until next week.
Great video, ‘military history visualised’ also covered this about 5 years ago and concluded in hindsight attacking Formosa instead of Philippines was not a better idea, as Formosa was held by much stronger forces and there was still the risk of the Japanese fleet which might not have turned out as favourable as Leyte Gulf. One quote I love about MacArthur is that “the best and the worst things you hear about him are all true”.
What is the name of the video? Formosa was also Japanese territory not Chinese (Formally I mean.) so it probably had more purchase than the Philippines. Do you know if Japan had the mainland nearby under their control? Surely Formosa would be protected by them?
I've followed you since the beginning of this series. This episode is my favorite by far because of the new things I learned today, specifically the intelligence uncovered by the Chiefs of Staff. Five Star episode.
Another great episode, as always. Iwo Jima in 1944 may well have been the best option. Not fan of Mac, but Formosa was not the best option for all the things you said, albeit that it was in a better strategic location, when compared to Luzon. The one thing that perhaps you didn’t go into, which was of importance, was the terrain of Formosa. That would have been, without a doubt, the most difficult of the Pacific war. An island about 400km in length and 150km wide at its widest point, with a spine of mountains running down the island where more than 200 peaks are above 3000m in elevation, and the highest point is 3952m. Climatic zones from tropical up to alpine tundra. The east coast is mountainous with no real landing options, and the west coast has huge tidal mudflats with few suitable landing beaches. As you said, Formosa/Taiwan had been colonized by Japan in 1895, so 49 years already by 1944. The population had been mobilized for war service. This was a hostile civilian population, probably not quite as hostile as native Japanese, but certainly far from friendly. An invading force would have to fight the indigenous tribes in the interior, which would equate to fighting the Takasago on their home turf. Teruo Nakamura, the last holdout to surrender in December 1974 was a Formosan Takasago. A campaign on Formosa likely would have become bogged down very quickly, and may well have dragged on for a year or more.
Thank you for that great analysis about Foromsa.Certainly,things to consider before planning an attack.😊
One thing to consider when talking as armchair strategists regarding WWll. The availability of landing craft and troop transports when planning amphibious operations. The numbers of Higgens boats, Amtrak's, LSMs, LSTs, LSM(R)s and troop transports was not unlimited. The same applies to Naval fire support and air cover.
After Overlord a large part of the vessels devoted to the amphibious operation then had to be dispatched to the Mediterranean for Operation Dragoon in Southern France. Then a large part of that had to head west for Leyte. The landing operations in the Philippines were as large or larger than Overlord or Dragoon.
One thing to consider when talking as armchair strategists regarding WWll. The availability of landing craft and troop transports when planning amphibious operations. The numbers of Higgens boats, Amtrak's, LSMs, LSTs, LSM(R)s and troop transports was not unlimited. The same applies to Naval fire support and air cover.
After Overlord a large part of the vessels devoted to the amphibious operation then had to be dispatched to the Mediterranean for Operation Dragoon in Southern France. Then a large part of that had to head west for Leyte. The landing operations in the Philippines were as large or larger than Overlord or Dragoon.
It's hard for me to assess which was the best option not knowing all the logistical issues. If the Phllipines were the jumping off point for an invasion of Japan, why did we go to Okinowa and Iwo, why not straight in from the Philipines? If we had to launch a massive invasion of Japan from Iwo, or Okinowa were there sufficient harbors, runways? etc. If we launched an invasion from Iwo or Okinowa wouldn't we have to worry about Japanese airfields on Formosa and the Philipines? Unlike the English Channel which is only twenty miles, the Japanese would have been able to see an invasion fleet to Japan coming from miles away and have time to mass defenses - so the closer the better. But if Iwo and Okinowa were where we would launch the invasion from why was Formosa or the Philipines even an issue. Also I think it may have been reasonably predictable given what we had experienced so far, that massive collateral damage in Manila and else where was to be expected if we invaded there.
I agree that bypassing Formosa would be best option. But disagree strongly that Formosan/Taiwanese oeople would be hostile to allies. People living there are Chinese who suffered under Japanese imperialism.
An interesting discussion about WWII planning that I was not aware of. Great job, guys.
Boy you guys are posting early in the morning today! Can’t wait for this episode.
Very worthwhile topic for you guys to cover. Never knew there was so much drama involved in the decision. I have had little respect for MacArthur since the bungled defense of the Philippines early in the war. Shame they didn't let Spruance go after Iwo Jima when he wanted to. Interesting topic in how this pretty well maps out the balance of the Pacific war. Thanks Seth and Bill!!
Iwo Jima was a disaster surely. It was not necessary.
Fascinating episode. It’s one I’m sure to replay several times
I forgot today was Tuesday!! But I woke up to an absolutely brilliant exposition of the puzzle that had to be solved to get to a plan to end the war as expeditiously as practicable. With the MacArthur histrionics as part of the foreground noise and distraction clouding the fluid situation, the second best option emerged supreme. Thank God for General Leslie Groves, Paul Tibbets, and the Success of the Manhattan project, because even at the end of July 1945 Japan😮😮 wasn't DONE! Japan was still capable!😮
I am not a military mastermind, I believe generally speaking closest is best for logistics for example but how exactly would any of this be better if Formosa was taken? Indeed in our timeline many Filipinos were saved and Japan fell anyway.
Great presentation and much more information that were also considered for the next direction . 👍
1. Before judging MacAuthur, suggest reading Wilkepedia or Manchester’s “American Caesar” accounts. MacAuthur was personally brave and unlike King, Eisenhower, Nimitz had been in combat and had shot and been shot at. He was 3rd in his West Point. He saved the Army from being halved by FDR during the Depression.
2. Japanese Philippine Invasion. Mac retired from the Army in 1937. He was recalled in July 41 at age 61, 5 months before Pearl. The Phillipine’s many islands and long coast make it indefensible from invasion. So the plan (that Bill Toti mentioned) was to defend Manila. When Mac recycled, he revised the plans to defend by interdicting the Japanese with the then new B17. The B17 could strike a fleet anywhere in the archipelago. (Later horizontal bombing ships disproven, but not at this juncture)
Directly after Pearl, MacAuthur had his B17s scouting for Japanese according to his revised plan. The Japanese struck when the B17s were refueling -think Midway dejavu- and his Air Force destroyed. No one knew the Japanese had planes with range to strike Clark Field from Formosa. The surface U.S.N. shoved off and the submarines with faulty torpedoes were useless.
His revised plan in shambles, Mac reverted to the original plan to fall back on Bataan with logistics consequences as Bill T. relates.
3. Corregidor. The U.S. needed a hero, Mac fit the bill. He could not be responsible for his lionization in the States, but I’m sure it would have suited him. But Washington, to buy time, led him on with hope of relief. When Washington pulled the plug I’m sure it left him with a bitter distrust of Marshall, King, and FDR.
4. Australia and the road back. Mac had to rebuild virtually from scratch. He had the second worst logistics trail (worst CBI theater). All he could do in 1942 was whine. Further embitterment and paranoia given his ego centricism
Buna was a close run thing, but Mac learned. Henceforth his strategy was hit ‘em where they aint’ which worked well except when intelligence (Willoughby) SNAFUd. Manchester claims Mac took the most territory with the fewest casualties.
5. Return to the Philippines. There were 1.1 million Japanese troops in China in 1945. The Formosa strait width is 110 miles. Formosa is a 90 mile long rock. Suitable landing sites are on the China side. Peleliu had gutted the Marines. As to be seen in Leyte, the IJN still had teeth.
The question was not whether the Philippines or Formosa, but what the hell was King thinking?
Mac is always controversial, either saint or satan. Be sure and get both sides of the story. A man with such a long career is sure to make mistakes, but also made good moves. Cheers
That was a damn good episode you guys.
Many thanks Curtis. I had fun writing that one. Lots of unknown, or at the very least, lesser known material.
-Seth
One of the most informative and interesting episodes.
Thank you
I found this presentation especially interesting. I think I have watched just about every podcast and history related presentation about the Pacific war on RUclips. When I first learned that McArthur had 10 hours after Pearl Harbor to ready the garrison on the Philippines for the coming Japanese attack but let them be sitting ducks, I could not believe he was regarded as such a brilliant war hero. Whenever MacArthur’s name comes up, other historians’ perspectives are similar to yours. This is especially true regarding MacArthur’s disrespectful treatment of Australia’s military command and troops.
I think you two would be particularly good at developing and hosting a standalone series focusing on the people aspects of critical events of the Pacific war. As just a few examples, who were the personalities involved before, during, and in the aftermath the Guadalcanal campaign, the battle of Savo Island, the raid on Makin Island, the invasion of Attu and Kiska, and battle of Midway? And how did the personalities involved, and their decisions influence the outcomes and aftermath?
Bill's 'What if' on China brings to mind a 'What if' I have been having regarding Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. What if we had cultivated Russia to become working partners instead of what we, the West did. I think it very possible that Ukraine would be neutral, whole and not suffering the casualties she has suffered.
Well, I do not think "we the West" did any really. I do not think what is going on with Russia had any relation to what "West" did or did not do. And I know something about it.😄
The wicked witch of the swamp, Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland is gone. Our policy concerning Russia was developed mostly by her over the last decade. If there is karma, she will expire in a very slow painful way.
@@jwingo7257And what exactly we can do about it? And with soviet army in north China? Do "Korean war" in China? In country with then population like 500 million?
Stalin's paranoia was going to interfere with any attempt at peaceful relations post-WW2.
And considering the USA already had one Red Scare after WW1 and there was real Soviet spies in the atomic bomb program even before WW2 ended I really don't think lasting peace, harmony, and partnership between the two sides was ever really possible by 1945.
I think his What if on China is oddly optimistic. I would prefer that reality but no way.
Great show. Would you do a show on the coast watchers?
Guys,the fact is the allies would have an advantage during and thru out the invasion by having thousands of phillipine gurillas joining the fight.Also, the U.S had thousands of troops and civilian inturnees imprisoned on the island.The U.S. had an obligation to free those who were living under hellish conditions as soon as possible.Just my humble thoughts guys.
Australian POWs were abandoned by MacArthur. 2000 died on Borneo in the Rinau to Sandakan death march. There was an Australian plan to free them before the March but MacArthur vetoed it.
@@kensvay4561 Philippines was ultimately more important.
@@kensvay4561 Sad but true.
@@kensvay4561 "The blame for the operation's failure was the subject of much controversy once the full reports of the camps death toll were received. General Thomas Blamey and other Australian officers attempted to shift blame onto General Douglas MacArthur on the grounds that he did not provide adequate air support. However, such reports imply that the Allies were on the brink of action and have been proven to be inaccurate. It is generally assumed that the decision to call off the operation before the surveillance was completed was made by the Australian military." I have no clue about this, I am not claiming this is true but Wikipedia.
Well done, gentelman. Would have loved to hear what Jon P. would have said about this subject.
Franklin Roosevelt was always wary of MacArthur and his political aspirations. Ten years before the subject of this podcast in 1932 Roosevelt was commenting on the populist Huey Long, calling him “one of the two most dangerous men in America.” He then said “The other one is Douglas MacArthur.”
Chris,in my mind I think Franklin had something to do with his death.Huey Long was the most popular politican at the time of his death,and said in public that he was going to be the next president.
@@christophermaurer318 That's the rumor.
This would be a tremendous year long WW 2 history course. Thanks!
First visit here and just find this a first rate presentation. Observation of King’s name in the title brought me here and I was not disappointed. How the Chicago reporter almost blew the j2 advantage. First I have heard that. I will be back. :)
@@josephdanel7729 many thanks
This had to be one of your best.
I wonder how the future for Formosa/Taiwan and China would have been changed if the US had gone to Formosa.
My thought exactly.
You optimistically presume an Allied victory. Consider as well a defeat.
@@rmwoodjr Allied never from August 1942 till 1945 Okinawa never failed to take island. Formosa would be no different.
Mao stated that the reason he was able to come to power was due to the Japanese invading China & the Nationalists spliting their fighting between the Japanese & the Communists. (Oddly similar to how Lenin & the Bolsheviks came to power during WWI.) Taking Mao at his word means Imperial Japan is the reason for a Communist China. Lastly Spruance's idea of an Iwo invasion in Nov. '44 was worthy of serious discussion.
@@kimmoj2570 invading Formosa (Taiwan) would have been a VASTLY different operation than either Okinawa or Guadalcanal. For one, when it comes to size, Okinawa is about 877 square miles, and is rather narrow. Guadalcanal is about 2,060 square miles. Formosa is 13,976 square miles (about 15x larger than Okinawa for reference) and has significantly better defensive geography. There are few naval approaches to Taiwan that are suitable for an invasion due to terrain that would be nearly impossible to get armor and supplies through. Most of Taiwan is covered in very steep terrain, and almost half the island (the east) is just a mountain range that would be ludicrously difficult to push the Japanese out of or even bomb them out of. I wouldn't say it would be impossible for the US to take it, but i think there's a good chance the casualty figures would eclipse all the other pacific island invasions several times over.
MacArthur was a total Type-A personality. Love him or hate him is usually the only way to approach someone like that, and it's no wonder when you count all his detractors. Bottom line is that 'they' (the political and military leadership class) could not win the war without Mac. With all the bluster and noise about him through commentaries like this aside, history will always come back to the fact his big, huge, annoying and infantile ego and overall personality kept America invested in the winning effort and support of the Pacific Theater. His personality had its uses.
Mac was a great general. And History will always bear that out, and remember him as one of the greats.
Subscribed Thanks for the insight.
About time!🤣❤️🫡
🤣🤣
One factor influencing the process was the fact that an Australian force in the Timor had been discovered to be still alive and fighting in 1942. They were resupplied and finally pulled out by 1943 but this reinforced the idea that significant unknown US forces may be still active in the northern Philippines. Similar events in Burma and Thailand will have fed into it there forces were known but delays lead to them being wiped out. Mack may have mentioned these cases.
The US and Filipino guerrillas in the Philippines were active throughout the whole war, the most significant resistance in Asia.
Great side road traveled on Torpedo Tuesday. Awesome.
A classic hero's dilemma: save the damsel in distress, or go after the villain...
Thank-you
Leahy was also FDR's Chief Of Staff. He is sorely overlooked. I'm hoping that you guys get to him soon. Huge fan of your channel.
Good episode.
Need an episode on the supply chain in the Pacific theater. Somebody had to keep the armed forces supplied.
I remember reading towards the end of the war the shipboard Navy in that Theatre were on TWO A DAY rations.
I have just finished watching-rewatching-the first episode about Pearle Harbor. Have rewatched several. Just as interesting the second time. Captain Toti, you have mentioned being in the Pentagon on 9/11. Have you published your story about that day? Would make interesting reading.
I am lead to wonder what kind of resistance we would have encountered in Formosa, especially seeing what we encountered in Luzon and Iwo and Okinawa...
The strange part is that American deaths in the Philippines were lower than in the latter campaign.
I read about the Cornelius Bull press briefings in Ian Toll’s recent trilogy. Are there any memoirs or other sources with more information about them? What I would give to have been a fly on the wall in those get togethers.
This Formosan😅 terrain was like Italy...with no Italians. It would have been a ridiculous situation, and murderous beyond any expectations, and probably the tolerance of American mothers.
Your logic is sound regarding heading directly for Iwo Jima. One question that occurs to me is the response of the IJN. We all know what transpired in the Battle of Leyte Gulf. How would the IJN have responded to an earlier invasion of Iwo? What sort of naval battle might have taken place, with what results? While I would expect the USN to win any such battle, the range of potential outcomes is huge.
Once again, the larger conflict that is going on the Asian Continent is ignored. Much of the value of the Formosa first plan was keeping Chinese troops in the game and tying down the largest portion of the Japanese Army on the Continent. It turned out that the Japanese offensive of 1945 would have prevented any advantage to the Formosa offensive. The Japanese offensive unfortunately facilitated the Communist takeover. Probably the most significant and enduring consequence of the Asian Pacific War.
From my USN Father's and two uncles perspective with their experiences in the SW Pacific as regards MacArthur, they despised the man, so much so that when adm. Will Halsey assumed immediate command of them, it was almost as if Jesus Christ himself had intervened. MacArthur knew this and despised Halsey for this. Footnote: to this day the photo of Halsey I inherited from my father is in a place of honor on our family portrait wall.
Whenever I think upon MacArthur I think about George B. McClellan of our civil war. Both seemed to enjoy taunting and insulting Presidents while building a case for Presidential nomination. Whereas McClellan always overestimated the numbers of his opponents, it seemed that MacArthur always underestimated the numbers. Both seemed to share a predilection for claiming the credit for any successes they achieved through the actions of their subordinates, while blaming any failures on said subordinates. Both were brilliant, but tainted by their egos. I appreciated Bill Totti's analysis of Ray Spruance's idea of taking Iwo Jima in 1944. Brilliant work Bill. I know that counterfactuals are looked down upon by many historians, but here is one that is worthy of consideration. Well done Seth and Bill.
Do you mean the opposite of this "Whereas McClellan always overestimated the numbers of his opponents, it seemed that MacArthur always underestimated the numbers." Admiral Ernest Joseph King was a big part of Five-Star General Douglas MacArthur's victory for example.
Good morning, SC in the house!
The Philippines are my first memories, I know the look, the smells all the way from 1968.
Been to Bataan, Corregidor, Death March…
Jeepneys, Nipa huts, carabao, stinky balut 😂
YOU forgot San Miguel Beer !..
@@johnmarlin4661
I was just a kid back then🤣
I hated the Phillipines. But I have worked with many Filipinos and like them. Perhaps the better ones emigrate to work.
Had we bypassed and went directly to Iwo, what do you think the Japanese response would have been. Did they still have enough Navy at that time to muster a meaningful counterattack?
By then, we owned the sea, the sub sea, and most importantly, the air.
Had no idea Formosa was a consideration as being Aussie I followed our efforts in Borneo and the recovery of POW's. Very very interesting
This is so weird, for some reason I woke up after some dreams or ??? last night thinking about 'Dug Out Doug'. LOL no way. 2/5 same morning this drops. You guys are to blame. Love the series.