The Battle of the Sibuyan Sea- with Jon Parshall-Episode 325
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- Опубликовано: 18 мар 2024
- This week Seth, Bill and great pal Jon Parshall tackle the first "official" fight in the greater Battle of Leyte Gulf, the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea. The first in our four-episode series on the largest naval battle in human history sees the trio taking a deep dive into the submarine actions of USS Darter and USS Dace, as well as some of Halsey's decisions leading up to Task Force 38's attack on Kurita's Center Force on October 24-25, 1944. The team looks at the aerial attacks on Kurita's Center Force by TG 38.2 and TG 38.3 as they launch wave after wave of attacks against the Japanese super battleship Musashi. Tune in and see what the guys have to say about Musashi suffering a death by a thousand cuts.
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I almost choked when Captain Toti said "Hope is not a Strategy". That was beautiful, and really seemingly encompasses the attitude of some of the Japanese commanders in these battles. Also, even when it's out of focus Jon Parshall's wallpaper is mesmerizing.
I'm thinking of starting a Go Fund Me account to buy Parshall a couple of gallons of beige wall paint.
@@jayshaw63 NO ! NO! NEVER! NO! Sorry for shouting just wanted everyone to grasp the how seriously flawed that idea was.
If he was to paint the wall, his colorful pattern shirts would not match.
On today's episode, it's a comparatively tepid shirt. Barely hits a 4 on the Parshall Sartorial Chromaticity Scale.
It’s even better when it’s out of focus…
Hope drachinfel is a potential guest for the battle of samar part, his video on it is really good. Also can you just give up on calling Jon a guest and make him commit as a regular co-host.
25:12 Wouldn't putting an IJN General in the water IMPROVE Kurita's standing in the IJN?
“The word Kamikaze didn’t come out of thin air!” Well put. It might even be said to have come out of thick air.
Making historical discussions every week is so hard. Having Jonathan makes it so enjoyable.
I feel as happy every Tuesday as if I had 2 CINCPACs without the aftereffects.
This veteran salutes you all.
I agree Jon brings so much more to the conversation.
Your opening sequence includes a brief view of a grizzled marine glancing to his left. If there was ever a portrait of the 1,000 yard stare, this is it. He is a young man, aged far beyond his years and it breaks my heart every time I see his portrait.
I'm not positive, but I've always assumed that historic photo was taken at either Saipan or Peleliu. The photo conveys the feelings of that Marine to the viewer very clearly. And to think I had the nerve to complain about anything in my late teens or early 20's. God bless the USMC.
@@NVRAMboi Amen
Peleliu.
Really... I feel that is more of an alert moment for that soldier. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong picture.
This is more... Intent... Or inquisition. Wonder.
My father served in the Navy in the Pacific in WWII. I wish he had lived to hear your podcast. He always felt that his part of the war got short shrift. He would truly enjoyed your work.
Always good to see Jon Parshall and his wallpaper. 😂
I have to say the look on John's face after hearing FOMO and watching the Hamster start running the wheel on how to use it, was the highlight for me.🤣🤣
Great episode guys.
Its a small thing, but yall uploading at ungodly hours of the morning is so nice cause it means I can listen to it first thing since I work ungodly hours of the morning
EDIT: One small thing about the Birmingham, but she had actually taken a tremendous walloping previously in the Mediterranean, taking a Fritz X guided bomb thag nearly sank her, and then later got hit by I think a kamikaze during the Okinawa campaign. The fact that she remained afloat thru the war is a testament to the quality of her construction and crew
I’m a field mechanic and have to drive to different sites every day and this is my Tuesday morning relaxing routine while I drive.
It wasn't the Birmingham that got hit with the Fritz X. It was the Savannah during the invasion of Salerno. The Birmingham was in the Mediterranean during the invasion of Sicily in July 1943 but had left the Med for the Pacific before the invasion of Salerno in September 1943. The Birmingham was damaged by air attack off Bougainville in November 1943.
What the USS Darter and USS Dace did during this action is what the USN's pre-war concept for the Fleet Submarine was designed to do. The pre-war fleet submarine concept was designed to be the eyes and ears of the fleet but also as a major attritional unit that was to whittle down the battle line and be a hit on enemy morale. That is why the boats were built and the crews trained as they were in the first place. It is no accident that US submariners had the combat record during the war in the first place. In my opinion, the USN's silent service was best used in WWII as a commerce raider first, second as air-sea rescue, and third for intelligence/special operations. The fact that American submariners also excelled as the eyes and ears of the fleet and put some serious haymakers upon the IJN battle fleet is just credit to the WWII pigboat crews.
Dace & Darter's big score was so important! Not only did they blow the whistle on the operation and take the starch out of Kurita, they reduced the odds that Taffy 3 would face.
People (the normal ones, so probably less us here on this channel) tend to overlook just how accurate the USNs pre war doctrine/forcastijg/planning was.
Edit: Also, I have to say, as a matter of honor due to your thumbnail, that I'm a Texas A&M guy, lol.
Seems their opportunities to do so were functions of having begun to run out of the commerce warfare targets they'd previously been tasked to destroy, and finally having a rebuilt fleet they could resume doing Fleet Submarine work for.
@@observationsfromthebunker9639plus eroding Kurita's confidence by forcing him to take an involuntary swim to his new flagship!
@@josepetersen7112 laughs in fleet problem 13
If "geeking out" with you guys on this podcast is wrong, I don't want to be right!
Technically, since they're discussing history and military science they're nerding out rather than geeking out.
And being the kind of person who points out the difference between the two makes me a dork. :P
I’ve been with you from the beginning. Seen them all. I’m insatiable. Please make Episodes 400-500-600 before you consider retiring. And do give our Japanese friends and allies the opportunity to view your labors and our viewpoint. Thank you!
It's interesting to hear of Darter and Dace as old boats at the time. We were producing submarines in such quantities that boats less than 18 months after commissioning qualified as old.
Back in the 70s my neighbor was on the U.S.S. Intrepid.One day he decided to go and get everyone some coca cola and peanuts.While he was coming back,a suicide plane had crashed into the 40mm gun tub he was a part of and killed everyone.Had he not decided to go,well you know he would have been killed to.Another suicide plane crashed close by the carrier and he threw up his arm to shield his face.His right arm was riddled with aluminum rivets that came out of the zero.Argel turner was his name.Thanks guys for your great effort in analizing the pacific war.
My aunt was a nurse on Malta during the 1940 to 1942 siege. I have a picture she took of a ship seconds before hit by a bomb. Debris is falling all around. She survived a hit on her hospital because she had crashed out in the linen closet. Her noisy room took a direct hit. That REME workshop noise saved her life.
@@davidelliott5843 Amazing story.Thanks for sharing.
Explaining REME would add some missing detail...
If your neighbor in the 70's was on the USS Intrepid the war was over...and there were no more Kamikazes. Confusing. Please explain.
REME. Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. A British army unit.
I took the nerd deep dive listening and it didn't seem two hours long! Great to hear the torpedoes did work and showed how they could truly contribute to a battle. Another great episode with a great chemistry presenting. Stay the course!
Watching you guys learn about “FOMO” made my week thanks!!!! Great program as always
My insomnia fix is in. Thanks for your great presentations on WW2 Pacific seminars.
Truly, you tres amigos define a synergistic collaboration.
戦艦武蔵の最後の写真が泣けます。 闘いに敗れた男のさみしい後ろ姿の様で悲しげですけれど、男の憂いを一身に体現したような姿に感動します。
Translation: The last photo of the Battleship Musashi brings me to tears. It is a sad sight, like the lonely back of a man who has been defeated in battle, but I am also moved by the way he embodies the sorrow of a man.
Such a magnificent ship.
It's a shame she was too valuable to use during the Solomons.
Like having a Ferrari, but always keeping it in the garage.
Me too! Listening to Bill talk submarine, for me, is like listening to Captain Kirk! Bill is a real-live nuclear sub captain (and squadron commodore). I would love to hear this guys stories! Go ‘head, Bill! Reply to this, and it’ll be like me getting your autograph!
I agree. We could have at least another episode with Bill doing a submarine recap. In any case, this, episode needs two reviews, replays, before I have a basic picture.
@@flparkermdpc go watch operations rooms videos on leyte
I've long said since I found this gem of a channel that we need a battle of the Atlantic series.
I imagine that most, if not all, of what happened during Bill’s submarine career is classified.
Another gripping episode, guys - helped by the reality of the events themselves. Thank you all.
Thank you Gentlemen, very well done.Cheers from Ulladulla Australia.
With all the crap we have to wade through in just trying to learn the truth, we know when a program's of importance and clarity, and speaking for myself only, but I suspect others feel the same way, I believe it's important to support these programs to see they don't get buried and every chance possible to get the word out. You Guys are Great, I mean that.
History classes are wasted on the young, while those that have lived it, value it immensely, while politicians forget it, to our regret. Thanks guys for your dedication to telling history as it really happened. You don't know how much you are appreciated. THANKS!
1:18:30. I mentioned this in Part 1 of the Peleliu trilogy, and I'll say it again: Halsey did consider a carrier for his flagship, and it just so happened that Enterprise was back in Pearl Harbor at the same time as New Jersey. The primary reason he went with New Jersey was his staff's encouragement.
Maybe they recognized some things that his Doctors were letting slide and were trying to keep him out of trouble? If so, they were unsuccessful, in that instance. The fatigue cases amongst the crew, especially the aviators that were mentioned in the discussion, certainly applied also 😅to those in command positions, although less obviously. And unlike the Peleliu Marine's candid portrait that speaks volumes. LOUDLY.
Enjoyed the story told here by three fine historians. I appreciate the academic banter between all three as well. The synergy, to use Jon's word, was fantastic as each speaker was passed the ball which led to the victorious conclusion. Well played guys! Looking forward to the next match in the series.
At about 36 minutes you mention fighting Willis Lee. Drac has a couple what-if episodes. One if Seventh Fleet Battleships are present vs. Kurita. The second if TF 34 vs. Kurita. He reckoned that Lee’s Iowa class, So Dak class, and Washington can take Yamato and company. What if’s are always interesting.
The US 16”/45 & /50 guns fired a super-heavy AP shell that wasn’t that much lighter than the Japanese 46 cm shells. They were also much more accurate and had a higher rate of fighter.
Leyte Gulf is the most insane battle in human history. Please make sense of this conflict.
oh boy! It's Tuesday!!! I am overcome with FOMO anytime I see a new episode available.
October of 44 already. It feels like the podcast started yesterday
Thank you Seth. And Captain Bill for these fascinating discussions. It is extremely important that we remember these events so we can learn from them.
Thanks for all your efforts guys. Your work is first-rate and enjoyable. I can only imagine the number of hours of work you put into this.
Now I know where Monty Python and the Holy Grail got its material for the Black Knight skit, "Tis but a Scratch"! The Black Knight spoke like he was using Toyoda's words but had his armor and limbs cut off as if Kurita's ships.
Living as an airline pilot and genav pilot in the Philippines. I overfly the many areas in the visayas area where the leyte gulf battles took place.
I can tell you the waters here are very tight for navy ships. Sibuyan Sea, San Bernardino Strait and Surigao Strait are all restricted waters. Looking down from an airplane and imagining the battle lines of ships down below gives me shivers
And I fly turboprops for a living too so we usually cruise at the altitudes the dive bombers operate in. Very cool to imagine history as I fly through the area.
Also have a Cessna 152 based near Mt Arayat near Clark Field.
Taffy 3 were the big heroes of the battle!
I usually listen to these as I’m drifting off to sleep. Often have to work out where I consciously got up to several times. But I always look forward to and get through the lot. The FOMO is strong in me!
Cpt. Toti must be thrilled seeing the submarine actions now back in discussion, especially after Darter and Dace sinking a few cruisers before Sibuyan action and even letting Kurita himself go into the drink before being rescued when his ship went down. It goes to show how superior US fleet submarines tactics were, now after the issues their torpedoes are fixed they can cause chaos in Japanese shipping even more unlike in 1942-43. Imagine if the US torpedoes worked from the start.
I set up the navigation system (a DM-54 LF Argo system ) that covered Brunei and Palawan for Shell pre-GPS. it's a very beautiful coast line, fairly shallow water and a straight base line from Miri to north Palawan. .
When Bill Toti talks about a sub attack, he gets as excited as a Cobra about to strike. I wondered if he saw our survey boat back in 1980 and was tempted for an instant . I was laughing, a very cultivated bad ass - a superb episode gentlemen.
On Halsey's time at sea, in 42 he commanded a task force, with two carriers, and cruisers and dd's, tf 38 had groups with more ships, carriers, bb's, and cruisers and dd's.
4 Battle of Leyte Gulf episodes !!! Dang what a channel! Find something that tops this one, I'd love to see it.
There are more than four to be honest.
Clay Blair's accounting of the attacks by Darter and Dace is excellent.
33:41 Japanese were curious. Junior officers acted on their own initiative, not in tactics, but strategy and decision of war and peace. First example is Togo himself. He started war against China in his own initiative in 1894. Togo also started machinegunning survivors in sea. Japan was outside of civilized cultures 50 years before WW2.
Thank you Bill Seth and Jon.
You guys are a joy...thanks.
Another fascinating episode. Thanks for clarifying why the USN didn't mount a more coordinated attack to cripple more ships in Kurita's force. It was fun (and educational) o see Bill's description of the attacks by Darter and Dace. There are reports that Japanese personnel did board the wreck of the Darter and got a look at some equipment due to inefficient demolition. One reporter said that the biggesr price was a look at USN aerial IFF equipment on the Darter and this knowledge affected the tactics of the Kamikazes and the use of lone dive bombers to attack carriers. The Judy dive bomber was a factor on the loss of Princeton and the near loss of Franklin (and Bunker Hill also?). By he way, here we see the effects of the Japanese lack of medium AAA weapons, such as the 40mm Bofors or British pop-pom. It wouldn't have changed the outcome for Musashi or Yamato but would have incresed the cost to the USN. By that point in the war the 25mm was really not the gun that Japan needed. I have read that the IJN knew about the problem, but that Japanese industry and economy precluded adoption of a new weapon.
If I recall correctly one of the reasons the Independence-class CVL's were so vulnerable was that the torpedo storage was not in the magazines below the waterline but above the after end of the hangar deck. This is from memory of an elevation drawing of the Independence-class. My reference books are currently in storage, but I believe it is in Friedman's book on U.S. Carriers.
Thank you Seth, Captain Toti and Jon for another fascinating presentation of this compelling history. You gentlemen besides being excellent WW 2 Historians keep the content interesting. I thoroughly enjoyed your presentation. Thanks again, you're appreciated.
Mr. Paridon you have a wonderful museum. I visited it Saturday March 16th. Marvelous and very moving. Many thanks.
Yet another wonderful product from UHPWP.
Kudos Bill + Seth, you gentlemen are building a most impressive catalog.
Lest We Forget.
🦀 🇦🇺 ✌️
Thanks for a great episode guys. Hung on every word. Can't wait for the next installment.
Jon states in minute 35:35 or so - "the word Kamikaze didn't come out of thin air." ...Ummm... Actually, both in the historic sense of the 2 typhoons which saved Japan from the Mongol invasion fleets and in the modern Suicidal Aircraft Attacker sense - THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE KAMIKAZES CAME FROM! 😁😁😁
Love the podcast & your videos, fellas!!! Keep up the Great Work! Bravo Zulu to all! Corpsman, Out.
One of the battles I’ve been anxiously awaiting for awhile now and y’all didn’t disappoint. There’s so many different smaller parts that make up the larger Battle of Leyte Gulf and im looking forward to the next few weeks, I know you guys will do it justice.
Jon's little aside about the Kongos' Type 3 ammo-crossdeck in 1942 was a bit of an "aha!" moment for me. The Yamato/Musashi fuel-hog concerns somewhat made sense. But I'd always found a little unsatisfying speculations about why all four of the Kongos at once never sailed together during the Guadalcanal campaign (if that item is ever addressed at all). Just always felt like there had to be more to the story. "Shortage of specific ammo type desired for the mission" goes some way toward helping explain, at least for that one specific (and crucial) night.
The Kongos were the only BBs the Japanese had that served any useful purpose in the war. They were lightly armored & closer to battle-cruisers than battleships even after upgrades but they were fast & they could operate with IJN carriers and cruiser destroyer forces effectively. Yamato & Musashi were at the lower end of modern battleship range speed-wise. They could do about 27 knots. The rest of Japanese BBs were stuck in the 23-25 knot range. They couldn’t even really operate as carrier escorts.
I can’t thank you guys enough for your excellent details which you give to every battle I have studied since I was a kid building models of Japanese ships (a la John Parshall)! I learn wonderful new tidbits during every podcast, and I wait with eager anticipation for every Tuesday! So much appreciated!!
Excellent episode gentleman. Once again, thank you for your time and efforts for bringing so much information to us. It is greatly appreciated.
Fantastic guys. Thank you for this account of the battle.
Awesome stuff, thanks gents
When Darter was 'perforated' they should have taken the opportunity to formally rename her ... to USS Colander.
Excellent discussion, gentlemen. I always viewed the sibuyan sea battle as a tactical US victory due to the losses inflicted but as a Japanese operational victory because their force wasn't stopped.
I look forward all week to your show, then it finally arrives…, and it’s over so so quickly.
You guys are far and away the best thing currently being broadcast via electronic telecommunications concerning WW2 Pacific history anyway in the world today.
But…, I suspect my wife thinks I’ve sprung a leak cause she’s seen me occasionally verbally responding to my computer screen to the things you guys say during your program. And like you describe it, it’s almost just like:
“two or three guys in a bar chatting about WW2 in the Pacific over beers”
Cheers !
This channel is what the internet was meant to be.
I really enjoy these presentations, gentlemen. They not only entertain and engage my fascination with military history, they teach, inform, and broaden my understanding of the subject. I cannot understate the value I find in military history examined and explored by persons that not only are knowledgeable and share a passion for the subject, but also bring the perspective that can only come from having served in the defense of this country themselves. Thank you for your hard work and dedication (and that of your expert historian partners).
Educating Americans about our military past, and the role our military plays in securing and maintaining our freedom is an indispensable component of national defense. People who have no understanding of it cannot dedicate themselves to it. I hopefully look forward to many more such discussions in the future.
Thanks guys, another fine episode!
BTW, love you guys and the work you are doing with these shows. Especially, thank you for your acknowledgement of the part played by Australia in defeating the Japanese in the Pacific war. More on this subject later.
Probably your best ever guys, thank you.
Been anticipating this one for a long time, savoring every word. You guys are fantastic.
JON!!! JON!!! JON!! I watched Battle 360 again yesterday!!!
Another great episode. Amazingly fair from all sides. I really wish you three would have these discussions while drinking some of that warm Ulithi beer. The length would probably grow from 2 hours to 4 hours but as they say "with wine, there is truth". And I wouldnt feel like I was drinking alone. But when it comes to the truth, I think ya'll are already as close to the target as we will ever get. Thanks for all the work you guys do in producing these fine discussions.
Another enthralling depiction of this momentous naval engagement. Well done gentlemen.
Been looking forward to this one from the beginning!
Got it! "Economy of War" is synonymous with the chess tenet of "don't trade your pieces if you are down on points."
Such great history and you guys have so much fun delivering it. Awesome content.
Great episode! Thank you
Gentlemen,
Pound for pound this is quite possibly the best of your episodes to date. Great play-by-play commentary all around. Simply outstanding.
V/r - IB
Regarding the difference in aggression pursuing the Japanese carrier force between Philippine Sea and Leyte, one factor that I never hear mentioned is the creation of the US 7th Fleet. At Philippine Sea, Spruance's 5th fleet were almost the entirety of the force defending the landings, so he had to take into account whether he could safely leave the landing forces unguarded to take a shot at the Japanese carriers. At Leyte, the 7th fleet had the responsibility of direct protection of those landing forces, which was supposed to free up Halsey to concentrate on using 3rd Fleet offensively to eliminate the Japanese carriers for good.
Nice job guys. Looking forward to part 2.
another certified classic history
One of the best episodes yet by the best 3-man team on WWII Pacific, RUclips. Kudos men for creating the new paradigm synergistically :)
Fantastic video! Thanks again for your channel!
Thanks greatly for this excellent document.. The world still wonders. Synergistically.
Thanks for being on the show, Bill! You're my favorite part
You guys do a great job. TY
Not just Burke, but Lee, Bogan, Sherman all thought Halsey's decision was incorrect when they received the orders that night. The Japanese had also lit all the navigation lights in San Bernardino Strait too.
John Parshalls shirt is not "LOUD" enough !!!! It almost blends in w/ the wallpaper .... IMHO
Quality content. Thanks, boys.
Epic discussion! Well-researched and thoroughly entertaining. Thanks!
Another great show guys 👍
I was thinking of how powerful your show is. Comparing it to Dash's show he does not get into the individual characters minds as you three experts do.
However he does have his Drydock in which any expert can ask pointed questions that makes the community feel involved in the process.
Fantastic job boys. Jon surely adds to the discussion. I feel like I have been to a professional program and understand more now about the decisions being made by each individual decision maker. What he knew, what he did not know and what he deliberately decided was not important.
Great show fellows.
Different kind of presentation.
Drach takes on a subject.
This is a 2 or 3 way discussion of events. I do like this better, but both are excellent.
Great, as always guys. Thanks a lot for the analysis and entertainment! I´ve got to admit I´m a little sad that we are into Oct´44 already as I don´t want this to end!
Great coverage. More than complements written histories. I don't remember reading of the Dart and Dace before, so really good stuff. The might of the US forces at the time is so impressive. The Greatest Generation.
thank you for the riveting 2 hours, really.
Great show gentlemen.
Bill, you're turning into a rock star. This Channel should have a million subs
Tuesday is easily my favorite day of the work week as I drive my courier route & listen to yours .& Drac’s content. Bravo Zulu as always. I’m a few weeks I hope to be in a dry dock in Philly to see NJ out of the water. Cheers :) - Wright Sublette
Thanks!
Sending you my views , I enjoy the history lessons while working.
Thank you sirs
Capt is looking and sounding much better lately.
You guys are so friggin entertaining 👏
Another great episode gents. Bill when you were describing Darter and Dave maneuvering for attack it was almost as if I could hear the command for flank speed and the roar of four big diesels as the ships raced to get in position for an attack.
An interesting footnote is that it’s believed the loss of USS Darter actually comprised the IFF system in place at the time allowing Japanese aircraft to sometimes sneak in and attack.
I’d also like to propose an Unauthorized History of the Pacific War drinking game. Every time Seth says “we’ll get to that” or anyone says “but I digress” you take a shot lol.
Are you crazy? You will have people drunker than those on St. Patrick's Day...
😁😁😁
@@robertdendooven7258 isn’t that sort of the point of take a shot drinking games lol?
@@jetdriver The reason I have never used alcohol in one. Just water.
Riveting session. Incredible story, well told.