I bought a used brass frame replica that had a lot of space between the barrel and cylinder. I filed the metal back on the bottom of the barrel assembly near the loading rod where it connects to the two bottom pins. It closed the gap pretty good.
I have an original 1860 army. Lots of holster wear on the muzzle end of the barrel. Still wonderful to shoot, and when you get your load form right each time, it's fairly accurate. Same Cylinder gap as my Leech and Rigdon copy.
I shot my navy CVA .44 with high power quite a lot. I was less knowledgeable then and was too rough in the pistol. In addition to the apparent stretch issue, the cylinder peened the brass frame. You can see the intention of rear of the cylinder in the brass frame. Also, there is a bit of stretch in the barrel where the wedge passes through as well as in the shaft. I plan on it being a wall hanger. Although I thought I may machine the frame smooth, braze in a spacer to rebuild the frame and see if that works. I have an attachment to that ole pistol because it was my first cap and ball. Other than the damage it looks almost new. I really like your videos and appreciate what you do.
Thank you Blackie for making me feel better about buying the Pietta 1851 Confederate Navy last week. I’m just now starting to get into Black powder and bought one before I had seen videos about the brass frames and i panicked. I called Cabela’s 2 days after I bought it thinking, well you don’t fill out FFLs for black powder so they shouldn’t have any trouble letting me exchange the Confederate for something with a steel frame, I know, swapping the Reb for a Yank. Nope, Cabela’s wouldn’t take it back. So I checked around on the net to see if I could buy a steel frame. Nope, no luck. I found where a bunch of other cheap buyers like me had tried to buy steel frames but to no avail. Well, I just made up my mind to buy another pistol that’s steel when I get the money, but I thought I was just stuck with a wall hanger. I do feel better after watching your video, Blackie. I at least I now know I can get some enjoyment out of it. If it worked for the Confederate Army, it’ll sure as hell work for me by gawd..
in the past the brass guns were sub standard..today with all the demands of cowboy actio nshooting..the guns have made hugh improvements..i am sure you brass gun will give you yrs of good shooting
Thanks a bushel, Blackie. Been watching a lot of your videos and I’ve learned a bunch. I’ve loved and owned guns all my life but I can’t believe I’ve missed out on black powder all this time. I feel robbed.
I’ve been sick for a week. I think I’ve watched just about every video you have on the percussion revolver. I went from knowing nothing to knowing something. Looks like a lot of fun. Thanks for all your videos. I stumbled on this channel searching for Tom brown tracker videos. It’s been a fun find for me!
i have a couple Brass revolvers and as you say they dont last as long as a steel frame but If you keep your powder charges on the low side and avoid hot loading and take proper care of the gun rhay can last a long long time
Why "myth" of brass framed revolvers? Without getting into complex metallurgy or confusing chemical analysis of metals beyond my poor understanding (more) “technically” Confederate brass framed revolvers and even the Henry Rifle did not have “brass” frames. Instead they had “gun metal” aka “red brass” frames (sometimes called “bronze”). Brass is an alloy made of copper and zinc in varied proportions to meet different needs. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin (although the tin can be replaced by other metals like aluminum or manganese, or phosphorus or silicon). Gun Metal (aka Red Brass, and not to be confused with metallic gray COLOR “gunmetal’) is an alloy say of 88% copper, 10% tin, and 2% zinc. When we see Confederate gunmakers fussing about lead shortages, it is because they were using gun metal with lead such as say 86% copper, 9.5% tin, 2.5% lead, and 2% zinc. Or roughly, 80-88% copper, 10-15% tin, and 2-5% zinc. (Lead was added to increase flow for better casting.) Basically as the copper content goes up, the color shifts pink or red. As the copper goes down, the metal shifts yellower then whiter. Because of shortages of key metals, Confederate manufacturing was a little bit random and hard to control exactly due to odd source material such as using Macon’s bronze church bells (bell bronze being harder at say 78% copper, 22% tin) in their smelting pots. So, at times, a "brass” frame (or buttons for that matter) may be yellowish one time but reddish the next. The frame of an original Winchester Model 1866 (aka Improved Henry) analyzed with modern techniques revealed the alloy was 83% copper, 14.5% Tin, 2% zinc, and .5% lead. So why is a Henry or Improved Henry not called a Gun Metal Frame or more easily called a Bronze Frame? (Also think bronze “Napoleon” cannon.) The frame of an Uberti reproduction Henry rifle was analyzed by a process known as “X Ray Fluorescent Analysis.” The finding was 56% copper, 44% zinc. Not a trace of tin. Truly, a “brass frame.’’ I might as well add this portion to this Quick & Dirty post. And that is a quick look at issues and controversies surrounding blank and live firing a modern Italian reproduction of a brass framed revolver due to the “lore" that surrounds them. One of the criticisms and caveat warnings against buying a brass framed revolver, historical considerations set aside, is the dialogue and arguments is that with “heavy” loads their frames will wear out and put the works out of alignment, and even "stretch" the frame. In brief and to over generalize, IMHO this is not a consideration when firing a few dozen blanks at a handful of events each year. But, live firing, and live firing a large number of rounds, say in the thousands will. ESPECIALLY if firing say a Henry Rifle with modern smokeless powder cartridges. Why? Many times, brass framed reproductions are cheaper new and used because of their brass frames to begin with. But, being a cheaper gun overall, they can suffer from being at the low(er) end of the random and sometimes nearly non-existent (it appears) Italian Quality Control issue. Live firing a C & B revolver with the “classic” combination of a full charge of blackpowder with room enough for the ball or conical bullet, wears heavily on soft pure brass. But it is the pressure on those parts that accelerates things getting out of line and out of sorts. PARTICULARLY where the cylinder arbors are not installed 100% correctly. This can allow too little or too much space between the cylinder’s chamber mouths and the forcing cone. When fired (live) the force of the recoil keeps pushing the rear of the cylinder back into the recoil shield eventually not only denting and wearing the brass there, but also distorting it out of shape. This also can cause arbor issues to accelerate, one big one being how the barrel aligns on both “open top” Colt or “solid frame” Remington type revolvers. (Often times, if one looks at used brass framed revolvers, one can see the barrel tilting or being angled “off” a bit.) All of this complicated by on-line sharing of personal experience. IMHO, it can be hard to know everything beyond what a poster shares about what his experience is or was with his 'brass frame' revolver. We do not always know the loads, the bullet sizes, and most particularly the number of rounds fired. Yet, one can find lads who report problems at a couple hundred rounds, while others claim no issues at 500 or a 1,000. (Of course, that is beyond out-of-the-box issues due to random or missing Italian QC so one might get a revolver that works perfectly, and the next lad gets one that will not cock, rotate the cylinder, or fire. Horror stories about Pietta's offerings circa 2000 or so abound...) In summary… This should help lay to rest, but it won’t, the myth of the brass framed revolver. Curt Last edited by Curt; 05-01-2014 at 07:20 PM. Curt Schmidt Formerly 17 years a Sherman's Bodyguard Married to a descendant of Senator John Sheirman's
nice. i just bought a brass frame. But to be honest. I'll probably not shoot it that much. couple of hundred a year. Haha thats like getting the info a day late and a dollar short. oh well. i'll baby it.
Yoi can always work it down - either at the pin, at the frame, or both. A little bit of filing work and the gap will be as good as new! Just make sure to keep it even. My 2 cents. Cheers!
I have a brass framed Pietta Navy 44, and I was told that it would last longer if I shot a lighter powder charge, and since the closest range, to me, is an hour's drive, it is a definite that mine won't be fired too much. That being said and from your video, I'm thinking that mine should last for many years. Thanks for the straight talk in the video.
I have a brass frame that it seems it was loose a little when I shake it. So I took it a part and the the part that has 2 brass prongs that stick into the holes I put a piece of ciggs filter in both holes and when I put it back together she tighter now than when I bought it. Already put 300 rds through still all good. Figured I'd share this with you thanks for your videos.
Spot-on correct and no stupid music or eye-crossin' "effects". The other wear area on the brass frame is the frame face at the bottom where the barrel pins line up. This area wears faster than the compression of the frame. Every time you reload or break down the gun, there is metal that is removed a bit at a time until sometimes the barrel will no longer be in-line with the frame and accuracy is gone.
My biggest peeve with other videos is they go nuts trying to produce a professional intro with loud music and stupid graphics. Its like someone found a new toy and they're going to make us suffer through it whether we like it or not cause they spent time and some money on the production. Annoys the hell out of me so I skip over it.
I just purchased a 1860 Colt by pieta. It's a good shooter. I keep it on my front seat of my car when I'm driving however I don't carry it around with me it's too big and uncomfortable to hide. I have a 9 mm r51 for that purpose
if you shoot your brass framed revolver with a smaller powder load the stretching will take a lot longer.sometimes a black powder revolver may or may not shoot as accurate at a max load or charge.it may shoot tighter patterns with a minimal powder charge or load. most people tend to load with the maximum charge because it seems to be more fun or exciting. remember if you are seeing a long flame exiting the barrel that is powder that is being wasted on looks or effects.if it burns outside the barrel the flames represent wasted energy that will not add to the force or velocity of your projectile.try reducing the charge for you brass framed revolver and see if it shoots as good or better than with the normal charge.doing this will be better for your gun and cheaper for your wallet.
steel frames , I m still shooting a ROA from the early-mid 70's , my brass frame Pietta, I won't live long enough at my current rate of shooting for it to be an issue. Bottom line, load, shoot, enjoy. Don't worry, be happy.
Exactly. Several thousand through my brass 44 Navy (Yeah, a what should have been) with NO issues. I pack it full, use hot caps and use ball and truncated bullets (sometimes my own cast .451 ACP type bullets), and no issues.
@@plooker39 I just shot like five cylinder in my Uberti dragoon who come with a forged frame , cylinder and barrel , and still with 45 grain of 3Fg and 255 grain bullet . The keys goes way deeper , i bet i will not be able to do so before seeing a hige cylinder gap . That being my observation i will not try any hot load or heavy bullet in any brass frame revolver especially on Colt replica
I bought a 1861 Colt brass frame back in 1990, you are very correct I shot the crap out of it . Wore it out after 3 years, replaced it with a steel frame 1862 36 Colt Police. Fired thousands of rounds and it's still tight as a drum, your right just go steel frame and chances are you will have it a very long time.
Thank you sir. This just answered a question i've been thinking about lately. I've just got into black powder shooting for cowboy action and I now own a brass frame and a steel frame Pietta. Probably going to be ordering another steel frame. I really like your videos in the short period i've been watching them. I feel like I owe you a case of beer at the very least for all the info you've sent my way.
Also remember if you have a brass frame and want to make it last a little longer you can shoot lighter loads. On my brass frame I run 15 grn charges with corn mill filler and 20 grn max once in a blue moon if I ever need maximum power for field use, compared to my steel frame where 20 grn is my standard load and 30 grn would be my max power load. Great video series!!! Its nice there are still some BP pro's around sharing their knowledge!!
thanks for the video, I have both steel and brass Pietta Remington new armies. The brass is more a sentimental piece in remembrance to my folks that supported my shooting and competitions at rendezvous, so when it came time to care for them until they passed (as a Christmas present to myself ). I've been shooting BP 20 years using front stuffers (Lyman great plains flint and Plains pistol) but with the amount of shooting I do (every Sunday) I had to pick up the steel when I had the opportunity. Now I've gotten into cartridge reloading (BP of course) using the steel Remington, Howell conversion cylinder and both 45 colt and 45 S&W Scofield cartridges. I would never even entertain the idea of cartridges in the brass, even if the BP numbers calculated out pressures being acceptable to brass tolerances.
I would like to thank you for taking the time to share what you have over the years. Greatly appreciated sir, I've learned from and enjoyed many of your videos. God bless! Stay safe and have fun!
"Ach du lieber, mein freund" Senor Blackie! This video was a very worthwhile one, for me especially. I have a brass frame Navy Arms .36 C&B revolver I bought in 1968 at Kleins Sporting Goods in downtown Chicago for $78. It functions & locks up better than any S&W revolver you'll ever see!! Absolutely NO rotational movement when the cylinder is locked. I haven't shot it a whole lot over the years for one reason or another, but not by choice! I load as much powder & ball as the cylinder chamber will hold (24 grains?). I don't believe in "whimpy" loads! That's why cylinders were made In the lengths they were made! I did notice that your Reb revolver was In .44 caliber. I'm going to guess that the .44 would put more stress on the brass frame than the .36 because of the more powerful loading. I would not want a .44 in brass unless I shot it only occasionally. What a great pleasure it is to work with these C&B's to see how well one can shoot them with there very "crude/rudimentary" sights!!! AND they are the most beautiful revolvers ever designed!!!!!
@@exexpat11 1) A cap&ball revolver won't hold enough powder in the chamber to become dangerously overloaded. 2) You most certainly can overload a muzzleloader single shot pistol or rifle, and the excess powder won't "just blow out the muzzle". Too much powder, and you might get a bad powder burn and catch some shrapnel.
Gatofeo here. For two decades I've been commenting in firearm message boards on cap and ball revolvers, based on my own experience. I've been shooting cap and ball sixguns since 1970, when I was 15. My first was a Belt Pistol (Colt's proper name), what collectors dubbed the 1851 Navy. Mine was in the doubly inauthentic .44 caliber and brass-framed. It was not finely made, but as a learning gun it was okay. It went BANG most of the time, but wasn't very accurate. Brass-framed revolvers have not improved over the years. Overall, they are made with minimal fit and finish, because they are intended to be sold inexpensively. A gun writer I knew years ago was of the opinion that the brass-framed revolvers were left to the apprentices in the factory, while the steel-framed revolvers were handled by the craftsmen. I'm inclined to agree, considering the work I've seen on brass-framed revolvers. Faults include patches of rough casting around the trigger guard and grip frame, ball-seating rams made too short, rough or totally unpolished barrel bores, rough chambers with sharp chamber mouths, rear sight notch not cut in middle of hammer, screw heads protruding from grip frame because the wrong screw was used in assembly, loose arbors, overly large wedges, lack of polishing before bluing, burrs throughout the interior action .... and the list goes on. A gunsmith, or someone familiar with their workings, can improve a brass-framed revolver to a degree, but it will never be as strong or last as long as a steel-framed revolver. It comes down to the old acronym regarding the entry of bad data into computers: GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). Frankly, I believe those who buy brass-framed revolvers are wasting their money. For a few extra bucks, they can get a steel-framed one. Even those steel-framed revolvers made with minimal fitting and finish are almost always better made than any brass-framed revolver. I have only just discovered your videos. I disagree with some of what you say, but that's to be expected in these videos. Since the early 2000s I've been posting writings about cap and ball revolvers in firearm message boards as Gatofeo. Many message boards carry my pieces, "So You Want a Cap and Ball Revolver?" and "Found! Proper Felt to Make Wads!" and "Proper Use of a Cap and Ball Revolver." These tomes have become go-to references for new and experienced cap and ball sixgun shooters. Keep posting your excellent videos, Blackie. I will retire in May 2022, and plan to get into videos myself. I'll undoubtedly turn to your videos to see how it's done properly. Best wishes! -- Gatofeo
Wow. Your video really clarifies things for me. I've never shot black powder and the indoor range I always go to doesn't allow it. I am going to check out an outdoor range that is about a 40 minute drive from home when I get the chance. After that I may buy a reproduction 1851 Colt from Pietta. I am tempted to buy the brass one that includes the starter kit (sold by Traditions Firearms.) Now that you have told us what to expect I guess it's on me to decide if I want to buy that kit or buy a steel gun and buy all of the other stuff separately. I probably would only shoot a couple of hundred rounds a year from it. Thanks for the info.
If you're getting a 1851 Colt Navy reproduction, get it in 36 Cal, not 44. Much more accurate, costs less to shoot (balls cost less, less powder used) and Original Navy revolvers are always 36 Cal. Even the Remington Navy is 36 Cal. If you want a 44 Cal, get a 1860 Colt Army (steel frame) or Remington New Army (steel frame).
very neat video. i always wondered how much a new brasser could shoot. I bought a Pietta 1851 44 maybe 4 years back, still have to take the thing out, but it looks so nice and the action sounds like a swiss watch. maybe it should get dirty once in it's life :-)
Thank you sir for your informative video. I have been wanting to try shooting BP revolver for some time now. I have several handguns and have built three AR-15 rifles so I am not new to guns in general. I currently live on a low SSI fixed income because of my disability so price is a consideration. At first I was leaning toward the Pieta 1851 Navy Brass Frame revolver. Cabela's has them on sale a few times a year for $149.99. I would also get the 5% military discount. However, I had a chance to hold a Pieta 1851 Navy ( steel frame ) in my hand at a local pawn shop. I do not have HULK hands but the grip felt small in my hand. They wanted $199.00 for it which was much too much for a used BP revolver. The cylinder did feel a bit loose as well. From what i have read I think the Pieta 1858 New Army has a slightly larger grip. I also like the top strap on this model. The store price at cabela's for the Pieta 1858 New Army is $229.00 for the brass frame model. The Steel frame model is $269.00. I am trying to set aside $50.00 a month . I already have all the accoutrements I need. Brass powder flask, brass powder measure, nipple wrench and pic, brass capping tool, One pound American Pioneer FFFG powder and #10 Remington percussion caps. All I need is my .454 lead balls and Pre lubed Wonder Wads. I do not really go out to shoot as much as I like too. Even with the electric cart the VA gave me it is still a lot of work getting in and out of my van. I probably would not be shooting BP more than once every 2 months and no more than 100 rounds a year. I actually like the look of the Brass frame. I do not really feel any need to use a cartridge conversion cylinder which would require a steel frame i believe. I also am not the type who would want to overcharge his loads. Do you think in my case it is any benefit to spending the extra$40.00 for the steel frame Pieta 1858 ?
Pietta recommends only 12-15 grains BP for brass framed guns (.44 cal). Most shooters seems to use 20-25 grains. That is simply too much for brass frame to handle.
Damn, I wish I had seen this before buying a brass frame pietta. Oh well. By the time it starts separating, I'll own a steel frame. Great video anyways! Subbed.
Seriously, you won't have a problem with it at all if you are an occasional shooter. You might want to shoot lighter loads, like 20 grain instead of 30+, but the gun will outlive you most likely. And besides, if it happens WAY down the "number of rounds" road, use it for display. Heck the toy guns used for props are over a hundred bucks now and they aren't even real. Enjoy your brasser, lighten the loads to about 20 grains and have fun. You didn't make a mistake unless you are planning on shooting thousands of rounds a year. Its all good. I have a steel frame which I do shoot more with a heavier load but I won't give up my brasser. I'd buy yours if I knew who you were.
Thanks for the info, I before seeing this got a brass frame .44, got cause it looked nice. I’ll shoot it, but I still plan on purchasing the other one.
That was a very interesting video. I never knew that they could make different hardnesses of brass but I never really thought abought it. My first cap n' ball revolver was a brass frame Remington kit gun. That was back when grocery stores that had a sports counter sold them. They didn't have any steel frame models and to me the Remington resembled a modern Piece Maker. Later on I had heard the brass frames would stretch if you continually put heavy loads in them. I kind of figured like you said in your video that it would effect the Colt copies a lot sooner. I liked putting as much powder in as I could and still jam the ball in. It didn't take too long to learn I was wasting powder. It was a lot more accurate and didn't get bound up so fast if I backed off at least 5 grains and maybe more. I eventually bought a steel framed Remington replica from Traditions. I was more happy with that. But if I had tried to pull the cylinder out at the store I wouldn't have bought it. When I got it home I took it to my work bench to tear it down and find where all the burrs were before I had to take it apart dirty. I dropped the loading lever and discovered I couldn't just pull the cylinder pin. They can be a struggle to get out when dirty. I drove over an hour away to get to the store where I got it. Just getting in the car to take it back wasn't going to happen. I got the pin out with some hammering and got out the old brass frame. I took the pin out of that and put it in the new steel frame. I got lucky because after that I was able to pull the cylinder pin out like I should.
I had the same problem with a brass framed Remmy I had at one time. Two or three cylinder fulls, and it bound up to the point where I couldn't turn the cylinder by hand after putting it on half cock. And forget about getting the cylinder pin out! I got rid of it and stuck with Colt reproductions after that.
what i noticed on the brass frame if you overload like 30 grains thats to much for the brass. the brass ring behind the cylinder gets mashed that causes the slack between the barrel
Thanks ,Blackie , for treatment of a subject that is uppermost in a lot of black powder shooter/collector's minds regarding integrity of the various metallurgical configurations and their properties. I think you answered a question I raised elsewhere about the ingredients and chemistry of the type of brass being used for these guns whether it was 'hardened' with other alloys as I read somewhere such as manganese(?) or found in existing sources like bells or old cannon barrels(?) or of an ornamental nature , too soft to have much of a life span of too much use. As a matter of fact a recent add from the modern Henry Repeating Arms Co. listed a break top shotgun and rifle that could also be purchased in a hardened brass receiver. Must be of the same type of brass alloy?
Blackie I just found your channel and am enjoying the hell out of it! I am new to bp...have a Pietta 1858 Rem New Army. I cant tell you how much I enjoy it! Now I watch old cowboy movies, Spaghetti Westerns and whatnot always on the lookout for "my" gun. Pale Rider..terrible acted movie, but enjoyed seeing my Remmy!
I’m in the middle of purchasing a Pieta 1851 it is a brass frame just if you can a guesstimate ls that gonna be able to shoot 1000 rounds before he shoots loose , I figured I’m probably going to shoot it 50 rounds to her three times a year
Go with the .36 brass frame Colt Navy repros and use 20 gr of 2f with round balls. It will last forever. Steel frames aren't much more expensive but I just think the brass frame guns look better
@@humansvd3269 you'll be fine with Pyrodex P, I've used it in brass frame Colts Just keep the loads at 20 grains to avoid beating the frame up too much
Look at it from this perspective. I am going to shoot “X” number of pounds of blackpowder through a cap & ball revolver from “now” until “the end”. I don’t know this number, but that’s not important. What is important, I can buy 2 brass frame revolvers, (a 1858 & a 1860), but I had rather have these 2 revolvers than to own 1 steel frame gun. If I divide “X” pounds of blackpowder by 2, the brass frame pistols should definitely be able to handle it, as the newest Pietta’s definitely have improved brass frame metallurgy.
How does load affects the stretching, say if we're shooting for fun less than 50 rounds a month... What if we reduce the powder charge say 10%? If, like you said on another video, we make sure that the cylinder to barrel transition is smooth? The only reason I favour brass is the looks. Thanks y'all !
Hey I bought both steel frame and brass ......the brass was very tight and still is .....but the steel frame is not and I wonder if that's a flaw I should worry about ....... when cocked the steel frame cylinder is about 1 mm away from the cone is there anything I can do about it ?????
Just a small correction. The modern reproductions by Uberti and Pietta are truely color case hardened. The italians use cyanide as a carburizing agent rather than bone charcoal but to the same end. It is not, as you stated, an applied finish.
ok i will give you that...but then why does it wipe off with vinegar? my pietta 1861 had a very nice color case pattern..i soaked it in vinegar ..no sanding..and its totally gone..i have several color case tools for a muzzleloader..they can soak in vinegar..and they didn't fade..
Likely because they were dipped in lacquer after being cased. Like Colt does with it's single action army to protect the colors. The colors by the way are the product of the quench fixing the colors of different temperatures. Colt and others in this country use an aerated, bubbled, quench to get those nice colors. The Italians use a rolling quench for not quite as nice colors. See Uberti youtube videos. In any case the colors are delicate unless protected. Vinegar will remove blueing so it will surely remove the less durable case colors.
@@edstimator1 not with just a wipe. They will disappear if. You soak in vinegar as Blackie was doing to remove bluing. Heat colors are much more fragile that blueing.
Great vid. I know some folks like a nice patina on their brass but if you use some Brasso it will shine like a mirror. So far haven't had any issues with the brassy's in my collection but I get what you're saying. That case hardening on your 61' Navy was beautiful.
i have had friend who wanted a cap n ball revolver to look like a factory new gun and i can fully respect that ..i guess it was because most of the guns i saw when i was young were old tired warhorses ..so to me thats how they should look
Great video by the way. Thanks. I do know these brass frames are cheap. Just bought a Spiller and Burr Pietta. Can't wait o try it out. It wasn't expensive and will last a long while.
I had a family member who passed away gave me a 1860 and 1858 brass guns they were new in the box I have only shot them very little now that I have a steel frame I shoot a lot more
Lucky you. I'd taje a free brasser any day. As he said, you aren't going to do competition cap and ball with a brass revolver anyway. I have brass and steel. If I come across a deal on another brasser, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Why would it be dangerous to shoot a gun like that? For the reason of a bullet getting stuck in the barrel? If the bullet/ball leaves a proper rim when pushed in... the cylinder is sealed tight from chainfires! Just don't hold your fingers at the gap, and you should be fine, no? And make sure to not stand it next to anybody.. so the exhaust whistle don't go messing their hair up! :)
Hey Blacky, Just ordered a Pietta Griswold and Gunnison in .36 caliber. If I decide to antique the gun, what do I or can I do about the roll marking ( black powder only ) on the barrel. Also concerning the stretching of the brass frame, will a .36 caliber be less likely to stretch the frame then a .44 caliber? One other question. Do you use corn meal or some other fill when you charge the cylinders? I really enjoy your videos You're a great teacher. Tim
i carefully draw filed the black powder only from my barrel..and then sanded and blended it to match....yes the .36 will take much longer to shoot loose than say a .44..and finally ... no i use full charges as colt intended..thanks for the comment safe journeys
Actually it's the larger, smoother bearing surface on the back of the cylinder that makes it a better brass framed revolver. It will also last longer by keeping the chamber pressures down (recoil). Max loads of 15-18 gr instead of the steel frame's 30-35 gr Max load. Also a lighter ball with less bearing surface. A .451 ball, as long as you still get a ring cut off it when loading, vs. a .454 ball in a steel frame. Skip the conicals with a brass frame.
when possible the frames were made of Gunmetal or Red brass a copper tin and zinc alloy much more durable that pure copper but not as durable as steel. I suspect the copies are red brass.
And Don't forget the charge put through it, heavy charges pound a frame faster than light charges. Peitta min is 15 grain max 35 grain, In my brass I never went past 20 grain and the steel 25-27.5 grain JUST for that reason. (the brass is put away and the steel has become my 'go to' ) alongside the front stuffers.
That Guy I put 5000 rounds through my brass frame pietta with every shot consisting of 27-30 grains of powered with nearly zero stretch. I think only the clones with very poor brass have that stretching problem
Hi I was wondering what are your thoughts on the pietta 1858 army brass frame cap and ball revolver. I see its got a complete brass frame as opposed to the 1851 that has an open top frame. Do you think the 1858 would last longer than the 1851, or will it end up shooting loose after about the same amount of rounds put through it? Or should I just buy the steel frame 1851 navy yank
If you don't have a 51 Navy, get one, but in 36 Cal. Colt Navy was always in 36. 44 Cal Navy is not historically correct. If you want a 44 Cal, the Remington New Army is great. I use mine for deer and hog hunting. 30 gr fff under a 454 round ball. I have a brass framed New Army Sheriff. It's still going strong, but I load 15-18 gr fff under a 451 ball in this gun.
Thanks, Blackie. That was some good insight. I have a brass '51 navy 36 cal I bought new out of Shotgun News in 1964 for $35. I shot maybe 2000 rounds and it was ok. But I noticed it took a very small ring off the ball when I loaded it and was fairly easy to ram in. I loaded friends guns that cut a thicker ring and was much harder to ram. It just seemed that the loading stress may have been more of a strain than shooting it. Although both contribute to stretching. Did your gun shave small or large rings and was it easy or hard to ram?
Ill tell ya one thing I learned from sailing, that bronze will handle corrosion from the sea and elements than steel will. that's why most boats from pre 1990 and even still some today use brass and bronze instead of stainless.
Blackie, you do a great job of explaining things (while using as few words as possible). I appreciate and enjoy your videos!
M.C. Oult : 100% agree he has a great channel! I could watch his videos all day!
one important thing I would add is that if you plan on getting any kind of a cartridge conversion, you have to use steel frame.
Great video. This series is rapidly becoming a valuable resource for me as I get into black powder shooting.
This is genuinely the best video ive seen on the subject of brass vs steel frame. Thank you for your knowledge!
I bought a used brass frame replica that had a lot of space between the barrel and cylinder. I filed the metal back on the bottom of the barrel assembly near the loading rod where it connects to the two bottom pins. It closed the gap pretty good.
Mr. Mojo Risin ya I was thinking that with the retaining rod too. Shin or braze the front of the slot file the back. It’s just .002 of an inch.
This might be a few years old, but thanks for the clarification from a newcomer to black powder!
no problem
I have an original 1860 army. Lots of holster wear on the muzzle end of the barrel. Still wonderful to shoot, and when you get your load form right each time, it's fairly accurate. Same Cylinder gap as my Leech and Rigdon copy.
I shot my navy CVA .44 with high power quite a lot. I was less knowledgeable then and was too rough in the pistol. In addition to the apparent stretch issue, the cylinder peened the brass frame. You can see the intention of rear of the cylinder in the brass frame. Also, there is a bit of stretch in the barrel where the wedge passes through as well as in the shaft. I plan on it being a wall hanger. Although I thought I may machine the frame smooth, braze in a spacer to rebuild the frame and see if that works. I have an attachment to that ole pistol because it was my first cap and ball. Other than the damage it looks almost new. I really like your videos and appreciate what you do.
Thank you Blackie for making me feel better about buying the Pietta 1851 Confederate Navy last week. I’m just now starting to get into Black powder and bought one before I had seen videos about the brass frames and i panicked. I called Cabela’s 2 days after I bought it thinking, well you don’t fill out FFLs for black powder so they shouldn’t have any trouble letting me exchange the Confederate for something with a steel frame, I know, swapping the Reb for a Yank. Nope, Cabela’s wouldn’t take it back. So I checked around on the net to see if I could buy a steel frame. Nope, no luck. I found where a bunch of other cheap buyers like me had tried to buy steel frames but to no avail. Well, I just made up my mind to buy another pistol that’s steel when I get the money, but I thought I was just stuck with a wall hanger. I do feel better after watching your video, Blackie. I at least I now know I can get some enjoyment out of it. If it worked for the Confederate Army, it’ll sure as hell work for me by gawd..
in the past the brass guns were sub standard..today with all the demands of cowboy actio nshooting..the guns have made hugh improvements..i am sure you brass gun will give you yrs of good shooting
Thanks a bushel, Blackie. Been watching a lot of your videos and I’ve learned a bunch. I’ve loved and owned guns all my life but I can’t believe I’ve missed out on black powder all this time. I feel robbed.
I have a Remington brass frame and I've used about 20 pounds of conicals with 30 grains of powder it's still alright
I’ve been sick for a week. I think I’ve watched just about every video you have on the percussion revolver. I went from knowing nothing to knowing something. Looks like a lot of fun. Thanks for all your videos. I stumbled on this channel searching for Tom brown tracker videos. It’s been a fun find for me!
glad you found the videos of use..i will have more coming..safe journeys
i have a couple Brass revolvers and as you say they dont last as long as a steel frame but If you keep your powder charges on the low side and avoid hot loading and take proper care of the gun rhay can last a long long time
Why "myth" of brass framed revolvers?
Without getting into complex metallurgy or confusing chemical analysis of metals beyond my poor understanding (more) “technically” Confederate brass framed revolvers and even the Henry Rifle did not have “brass” frames.
Instead they had “gun metal” aka “red brass” frames (sometimes called “bronze”).
Brass is an alloy made of copper and zinc in varied proportions to meet different needs.
Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin (although the tin can be replaced by other metals like aluminum or manganese, or phosphorus or silicon).
Gun Metal (aka Red Brass, and not to be confused with metallic gray COLOR “gunmetal’) is an alloy say of 88% copper, 10% tin, and 2% zinc. When we see Confederate gunmakers fussing about lead shortages, it is because they were using gun metal with lead such as say 86% copper, 9.5% tin, 2.5% lead, and 2% zinc. Or roughly, 80-88% copper, 10-15% tin, and 2-5% zinc. (Lead was added to increase flow for better casting.)
Basically as the copper content goes up, the color shifts pink or red. As the copper goes down, the metal shifts yellower then whiter. Because of shortages of key metals, Confederate manufacturing was a little bit random and hard to control exactly due to odd source material such as using Macon’s bronze church bells (bell bronze being harder at say 78% copper, 22% tin) in their smelting pots. So, at times, a "brass” frame (or buttons for that matter) may be yellowish one time but reddish the next.
The frame of an original Winchester Model 1866 (aka Improved Henry) analyzed with modern techniques revealed the alloy was 83% copper, 14.5% Tin, 2% zinc, and .5% lead. So why is a Henry or Improved Henry not called a Gun Metal Frame or more easily called a Bronze Frame? (Also think bronze “Napoleon” cannon.)
The frame of an Uberti reproduction Henry rifle was analyzed by a process known as “X Ray Fluorescent Analysis.” The finding was 56% copper, 44% zinc. Not a trace of tin. Truly, a “brass frame.’’
I might as well add this portion to this Quick & Dirty post. And that is a quick look at issues and controversies surrounding blank and live firing a modern Italian reproduction of a brass framed revolver due to the “lore" that surrounds them.
One of the criticisms and caveat warnings against buying a brass framed revolver, historical considerations set aside, is the dialogue and arguments is that with “heavy” loads their frames will wear out and put the works out of alignment, and even "stretch" the frame.
In brief and to over generalize, IMHO this is not a consideration when firing a few dozen blanks at a handful of events each year.
But, live firing, and live firing a large number of rounds, say in the thousands will. ESPECIALLY if firing say a Henry Rifle with modern smokeless powder cartridges.
Why?
Many times, brass framed reproductions are cheaper new and used because of their brass frames to begin with. But, being a cheaper gun overall, they can suffer from being at the low(er) end of the random and sometimes nearly non-existent (it appears) Italian Quality Control issue.
Live firing a C & B revolver with the “classic” combination of a full charge of blackpowder with room enough for the ball or conical bullet, wears heavily on soft pure brass. But it is the pressure on those parts that accelerates things getting out of line and out of sorts. PARTICULARLY where the cylinder arbors are not installed 100% correctly. This can allow too little or too much space between the cylinder’s chamber mouths and the forcing cone. When fired (live) the force of the recoil keeps pushing the rear of the cylinder back into the recoil shield eventually not only denting and wearing the brass there, but also distorting it out of shape. This also can cause arbor issues to accelerate, one big one being how the barrel aligns on both “open top” Colt or “solid frame” Remington type revolvers. (Often times, if one looks at used brass framed revolvers, one can see the barrel tilting or being angled “off” a bit.)
All of this complicated by on-line sharing of personal experience. IMHO, it can be hard to know everything beyond what a poster shares about what his experience is or was with his 'brass frame' revolver. We do not always know the loads, the bullet sizes, and most particularly the number of rounds fired. Yet, one can find lads who report problems at a couple hundred rounds, while others claim no issues at 500 or a 1,000.
(Of course, that is beyond out-of-the-box issues due to random or missing Italian QC so one might get a revolver that works perfectly, and the next lad gets one that will not cock, rotate the cylinder, or fire. Horror stories about Pietta's offerings circa 2000 or so abound...)
In summary…
This should help lay to rest, but it won’t, the myth of the brass framed revolver.
Curt
Last edited by Curt; 05-01-2014 at 07:20 PM.
Curt Schmidt
Formerly 17 years a Sherman's Bodyguard
Married to a descendant of Senator John Sheirman's
nice. i just bought a brass frame. But to be honest. I'll probably not shoot it that much. couple of hundred a year. Haha thats like getting the info a day late and a dollar short. oh well. i'll baby it.
If it lasts 10 years with 3000-4000 rounds you'll have gotten your money out of it. Just use standard loads and you'll be fine.
Yoi can always work it down - either at the pin, at the frame, or both. A little bit of filing work and the gap will be as good as new! Just make sure to keep it even. My 2 cents. Cheers!
I bought a "shot loose" brass navy 6.
Always wondered if it could be tightened up.
Thanks for saving me time and money, ........... wall hanger.
Yes, a little bit of precise filing and polishing. Should not take More than an hour, in most cases! Cheers!
I have a brass framed Pietta Navy 44, and I was told that it would last longer if I shot a lighter powder charge, and since the closest range, to me, is an hour's drive, it is a definite that mine won't be fired too much. That being said and from your video, I'm thinking that mine should last for many years. Thanks for the straight talk in the video.
I have a brass frame that it seems it was loose a little when I shake it. So I took it a part and the the part that has 2 brass prongs that stick into the holes I put a piece of ciggs filter in both holes and when I put it back together she tighter now than when I bought it. Already put 300 rds through still all good. Figured I'd share this with you thanks for your videos.
Great job- I appreciate the detailed explanation.
Thank you, sir.
Spot-on correct and no stupid music or eye-crossin' "effects". The other wear area on the brass frame is the frame face at the bottom where the barrel pins line up. This area wears faster than the compression of the frame. Every time you reload or break down the gun, there is metal that is removed a bit at a time until sometimes the barrel will no longer be in-line with the frame and accuracy is gone.
My biggest peeve with other videos is they go nuts trying to produce a professional intro with loud music and stupid graphics. Its like someone found a new toy and they're going to make us suffer through it whether we like it or not cause they spent time and some money on the production. Annoys the hell out of me so I skip over it.
I just purchased a 1860 Colt by pieta. It's a good shooter. I keep it on my front seat of my car when I'm driving however I don't carry it around with me it's too big and uncomfortable to hide. I have a 9 mm r51 for that purpose
Check the base base pin. I bet you will notice that the base pin hasn't pulled but that the ratchet has beat itself a new recess.
if you shoot your brass framed revolver with a smaller powder load the stretching will take a lot longer.sometimes a black powder revolver may or may not shoot as accurate at a max load or charge.it may shoot tighter patterns with a minimal powder charge or load. most people tend to load with the maximum charge because it seems to be more fun or exciting. remember if you are seeing a long flame exiting the barrel that is powder that is being wasted on looks or effects.if it burns outside the barrel the flames represent wasted energy that will not add to the force or velocity of your projectile.try reducing the charge for you brass framed revolver and see if it shoots as good or better than with the normal charge.doing this will be better for your gun and cheaper for your wallet.
steel frames , I m still shooting a ROA from the early-mid 70's , my brass frame Pietta, I won't live long enough at my current rate of shooting for it to be an issue. Bottom line, load, shoot, enjoy. Don't worry, be happy.
Exactly. Several thousand through my brass 44 Navy (Yeah, a what should have been) with NO issues. I pack it full, use hot caps and use ball and truncated bullets (sometimes my own cast .451 ACP type bullets), and no issues.
@@plooker39 I just shot like five cylinder in my Uberti dragoon who come with a forged frame , cylinder and barrel , and still with 45 grain of 3Fg and 255 grain bullet . The keys goes way deeper , i bet i will not be able to do so before seeing a hige cylinder gap . That being my observation i will not try any hot load or heavy bullet in any brass frame revolver especially on Colt replica
Thanks for the information. It was an eye opener. My .44 is shot loose . Going to get a steel frame..
It will make a great display piece in a shadow box along with some genuine Confederate money.
I bought a 1861 Colt brass frame back in 1990, you are very correct I shot the crap out of it . Wore it out after 3 years, replaced it with a steel frame 1862 36 Colt Police. Fired thousands of rounds and it's still tight as a drum, your right just go steel frame and chances are you will have it a very long time.
Thank you sir. This just answered a question i've been thinking about lately. I've just got into black powder shooting for cowboy action and I now own a brass frame and a steel frame Pietta. Probably going to be ordering another steel frame. I really like your videos in the short period i've been watching them. I feel like I owe you a case of beer at the very least for all the info you've sent my way.
thank you glad you enjoyed the videos..more to come..safe journeys
Also remember if you have a brass frame and want to make it last a little longer you can shoot lighter loads. On my brass frame I run 15 grn charges with corn mill filler and 20 grn max once in a blue moon if I ever need maximum power for field use, compared to my steel frame where 20 grn is my standard load and 30 grn would be my max power load.
Great video series!!! Its nice there are still some BP pro's around sharing their knowledge!!
Blackie,thanks for all the info.I pulled my 1973 36 cal. Uberti out of the safe and am having a blast with it.
thanks for the video, I have both steel and brass Pietta Remington new armies.
The brass is more a sentimental piece in remembrance to my folks that supported my shooting and competitions at rendezvous, so when it came time to care for them until they passed (as a Christmas present to myself ).
I've been shooting BP 20 years using front stuffers (Lyman great plains flint and Plains pistol) but with the amount of shooting I do (every Sunday) I had to pick up the steel when I had the opportunity. Now I've gotten into cartridge reloading (BP of course) using the steel Remington, Howell conversion cylinder and both 45 colt and 45 S&W Scofield cartridges. I would never even entertain the idea of cartridges in the brass, even if the BP numbers calculated out pressures being acceptable to brass tolerances.
Good video thanks. Always wanted a BP Revolver but was worried. Think I'll snag a brass frame.
Thanks for the practical explanation!
Great video!
I would like to thank you for taking the time to share what you have over the years.
Greatly appreciated sir, I've learned from and enjoyed many of your videos.
God bless! Stay safe and have fun!
"Ach du lieber, mein freund" Senor Blackie! This video was a very worthwhile one, for me especially. I have a brass frame Navy Arms .36 C&B revolver I bought in 1968 at Kleins Sporting Goods in downtown Chicago for $78. It functions & locks up better than any S&W revolver you'll ever see!! Absolutely NO rotational movement when the cylinder is locked. I haven't shot it a whole lot over the years for one reason or another, but not by choice! I load as much powder & ball as the cylinder chamber will hold (24 grains?). I don't believe in "whimpy" loads! That's why cylinders were made In the lengths they were made! I did notice that your Reb revolver was In .44 caliber. I'm going to guess that the .44 would put more stress on the brass frame than the .36 because of the more powerful loading. I would not want a .44 in brass unless I shot it only occasionally. What a great pleasure it is to work with these C&B's to see how well one can shoot them with there very "crude/rudimentary" sights!!! AND they are the most beautiful revolvers ever designed!!!!!
What makes BP inherently safe is for the most part if you over load it most of the powder won't burn and be blown out the barrel as waste.
@@exexpat11 1) A cap&ball revolver won't hold enough powder in the chamber to become dangerously overloaded.
2) You most certainly can overload a muzzleloader single shot pistol or rifle, and the excess powder won't "just blow out the muzzle". Too much powder, and you might get a bad powder burn and catch some shrapnel.
Gatofeo here. For two decades I've been commenting in firearm message boards on cap and ball revolvers, based on my own experience.
I've been shooting cap and ball sixguns since 1970, when I was 15. My first was a Belt Pistol (Colt's proper name), what collectors dubbed the 1851 Navy. Mine was in the doubly inauthentic .44 caliber and brass-framed. It was not finely made, but as a learning gun it was okay. It went BANG most of the time, but wasn't very accurate.
Brass-framed revolvers have not improved over the years. Overall, they are made with minimal fit and finish, because they are intended to be sold inexpensively. A gun writer I knew years ago was of the opinion that the brass-framed revolvers were left to the apprentices in the factory, while the steel-framed revolvers were handled by the craftsmen. I'm inclined to agree, considering the work I've seen on brass-framed revolvers.
Faults include patches of rough casting around the trigger guard and grip frame, ball-seating rams made too short, rough or totally unpolished barrel bores, rough chambers with sharp chamber mouths, rear sight notch not cut in middle of hammer, screw heads protruding from grip frame because the wrong screw was used in assembly, loose arbors, overly large wedges, lack of polishing before bluing, burrs throughout the interior action .... and the list goes on.
A gunsmith, or someone familiar with their workings, can improve a brass-framed revolver to a degree, but it will never be as strong or last as long as a steel-framed revolver. It comes down to the old acronym regarding the entry of bad data into computers: GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out).
Frankly, I believe those who buy brass-framed revolvers are wasting their money. For a few extra bucks, they can get a steel-framed one. Even those steel-framed revolvers made with minimal fitting and finish are almost always better made than any brass-framed revolver.
I have only just discovered your videos. I disagree with some of what you say, but that's to be expected in these videos. Since the early 2000s I've been posting writings about cap and ball revolvers in firearm message boards as Gatofeo. Many message boards carry my pieces, "So You Want a Cap and Ball Revolver?" and "Found! Proper Felt to Make Wads!" and "Proper Use of a Cap and Ball Revolver." These tomes have become go-to references for new and experienced cap and ball sixgun shooters.
Keep posting your excellent videos, Blackie. I will retire in May 2022, and plan to get into videos myself. I'll undoubtedly turn to your videos to see how it's done properly.
Best wishes! -- Gatofeo
I love your channel I bought a steel frame 1851navy just from watching you and it's awesome
hope you enjoy it the 19851 is a great pointer
Good presentation. Well put.
I don't like that chore word either. Sounds like work.
My brass 1863 .31 by Pietta is safe from molecular stretch.
Wow. Your video really clarifies things for me. I've never shot black powder and the indoor range I always go to doesn't allow it. I am going to check out an outdoor range that is about a 40 minute drive from home when I get the chance. After that I may buy a reproduction 1851 Colt from Pietta. I am tempted to buy the brass one that includes the starter kit (sold by Traditions Firearms.) Now that you have told us what to expect I guess it's on me to decide if I want to buy that kit or buy a steel gun and buy all of the other stuff separately. I probably would only shoot a couple of hundred rounds a year from it. Thanks for the info.
If you're getting a 1851 Colt Navy reproduction, get it in 36 Cal, not 44. Much more accurate, costs less to shoot (balls cost less, less powder used) and Original Navy revolvers are always 36 Cal. Even the Remington Navy is 36 Cal.
If you want a 44 Cal, get a 1860 Colt Army (steel frame) or Remington New Army (steel frame).
very neat video. i always wondered how much a new brasser could shoot. I bought a Pietta 1851 44 maybe 4 years back, still have to take the thing out, but it looks so nice and the action sounds like a swiss watch. maybe it should get dirty once in it's life :-)
I understand now why brass frame revolvers are cheaper ,,and do not last as long , thanks Blackie
Thank you sir for your informative video. I have been wanting to try shooting BP revolver for some time now.
I have several handguns and have built three AR-15 rifles so I am not new to guns in general.
I currently live on a low SSI fixed income because of my disability so price is a consideration.
At first I was leaning toward the Pieta 1851 Navy Brass Frame revolver. Cabela's has them on sale a few times a year for $149.99.
I would also get the 5% military discount. However, I had a chance to hold a Pieta 1851 Navy ( steel frame ) in my hand at a local pawn shop.
I do not have HULK hands but the grip felt small in my hand. They wanted $199.00 for it which was much too much for a used BP revolver.
The cylinder did feel a bit loose as well. From what i have read I think the Pieta 1858 New Army has a slightly larger grip. I also like the top strap
on this model.
The store price at cabela's for the Pieta 1858 New Army is $229.00 for the brass frame model. The Steel frame model is $269.00.
I am trying to set aside $50.00 a month . I already have all the accoutrements I need. Brass powder flask, brass powder measure, nipple wrench and pic,
brass capping tool, One pound American Pioneer FFFG powder and #10 Remington percussion caps. All I need is my .454 lead balls and Pre lubed Wonder Wads.
I do not really go out to shoot as much as I like too. Even with the electric cart the VA gave me it is still a lot of work getting in and out of my van.
I probably would not be shooting BP more than once every 2 months and no more than 100 rounds a year.
I actually like the look of the Brass frame. I do not really feel any need to use a cartridge conversion cylinder which would require a steel frame i believe.
I also am not the type who would want to overcharge his loads.
Do you think in my case it is any benefit to spending the extra$40.00 for the steel frame Pieta 1858 ?
Pietta recommends only 12-15 grains BP for brass framed guns (.44 cal). Most shooters seems to use 20-25 grains. That is simply too much for brass frame to handle.
I wish they made replacement parts for the brass frames so you can use steel but been looking and it's almost impossible
Steel frame is also worth it for those who want a conversion cylinder to shoot low pressure, cowboy rounds
this is exactly what I was looking for and couldn't find. thanks man.
Damn, I wish I had seen this before buying a brass frame pietta. Oh well. By the time it starts separating, I'll own a steel frame. Great video anyways! Subbed.
welcome to the channel
Seriously, you won't have a problem with it at all if you are an occasional shooter. You might want to shoot lighter loads, like 20 grain instead of 30+, but the gun will outlive you most likely. And besides, if it happens WAY down the "number of rounds" road, use it for display. Heck the toy guns used for props are over a hundred bucks now and they aren't even real. Enjoy your brasser, lighten the loads to about 20 grains and have fun. You didn't make a mistake unless you are planning on shooting thousands of rounds a year. Its all good. I have a steel frame which I do shoot more with a heavier load but I won't give up my brasser. I'd buy yours if I knew who you were.
@@Theywaswrong Thanks for the info. Im happy with it. It does exactly what it's intended to do, and it's fun as hell.
Thanks for the info, I before seeing this got a brass frame .44, got cause it looked nice. I’ll shoot it, but I still plan on purchasing the other one.
Very well explained!
Im New to old revolvers but you really give good Info in a very understandable way.
Thank you, Blackie.
Thanks for the update good morning
Morning!
Great information Blackie. Thank you very much. My Remington New Army is a brass frame.
That was a very interesting video. I never knew that they could make different hardnesses of brass but I never really thought abought it. My first cap n' ball revolver was a brass frame Remington kit gun. That was back when grocery stores that had a sports counter sold them. They didn't have any steel frame models and to me the Remington resembled a modern Piece Maker. Later on I had heard the brass frames would stretch if you continually put heavy loads in them. I kind of figured like you said in your video that it would effect the Colt copies a lot sooner. I liked putting as much powder in as I could and still jam the ball in. It didn't take too long to learn I was wasting powder. It was a lot more accurate and didn't get bound up so fast if I backed off at least 5 grains and maybe more. I eventually bought a steel framed Remington replica from Traditions. I was more happy with that. But if I had tried to pull the cylinder out at the store I wouldn't have bought it. When I got it home I took it to my work bench to tear it down and find where all the burrs were before I had to take it apart dirty.
I dropped the loading lever and discovered I couldn't just pull the cylinder pin. They can be a struggle to get out when dirty. I drove over an hour away to get to the store where I got it. Just getting in the car to take it back wasn't going to happen. I got the pin out with some hammering and got out the old brass frame. I took the pin out of that and put it in the new steel frame. I got lucky because after that I was able to pull the cylinder pin out like I should.
Sounds like your Kit Gun was probably an old CVA Kit.
I had the same problem with a brass framed Remmy I had at one time. Two or three cylinder fulls, and it bound up to the point where I couldn't turn the cylinder by hand after putting it on half cock. And forget about getting the cylinder pin out! I got rid of it and stuck with Colt reproductions after that.
I just bought a Pietta 1851 .44 Navy for $137. At that price, i can just buy a new one every few years and not worry about it.
Buy your spare now and store it as prices are going to climb.
I have a Brass framed Remington style so it may last a bit longer, but I agree, a steel frame is better. Thumb up for pointing this out.
what i noticed on the brass frame if you overload like 30 grains thats to much for the brass. the brass ring behind the cylinder gets mashed that causes the slack between the barrel
Thanks ,Blackie , for treatment of a subject that is uppermost in a lot of black powder shooter/collector's minds regarding integrity of the various metallurgical configurations and their properties. I think you answered a question I raised elsewhere about the ingredients and chemistry of the type of brass being used for these guns whether it was 'hardened' with other alloys as I read somewhere such as manganese(?) or found in existing sources like bells or old cannon barrels(?) or of an ornamental nature , too soft to have much of a life span of too much use. As a matter of fact a recent add from the modern Henry Repeating Arms Co. listed a break top shotgun and rifle that could also be purchased in a hardened brass receiver. Must be of the same type of brass alloy?
Thank You, the brass framed revolver is quite nice looking.
Blackie I just found your channel and am enjoying the hell out of it! I am new to bp...have a Pietta 1858 Rem New Army. I cant tell you how much I enjoy it! Now I watch old cowboy movies, Spaghetti Westerns and whatnot always on the lookout for "my" gun. Pale Rider..terrible acted movie, but enjoyed seeing my Remmy!
I’m in the middle of purchasing a Pieta 1851 it is a brass frame just if you can a guesstimate ls that gonna be able to shoot 1000 rounds before he shoots loose , I figured I’m probably going to shoot it 50 rounds to her three times a year
it should do fine for that
Brass threads are more like to strip out when high pressures are pulling that arbor stud thread right iut the frame.
Great explanation!
Extremely informative and interesting.
Go with the .36 brass frame Colt Navy repros and use 20 gr of 2f with round balls. It will last forever.
Steel frames aren't much more expensive but I just think the brass frame guns look better
isn't 2f the wrong powder
@@humansvd3269 2f is gentler on brass frames
@@karlhoss6840 I wish I knew this. I bought 3F Pyrodex.....
@@humansvd3269 you'll be fine with Pyrodex P, I've used it in brass frame Colts
Just keep the loads at 20 grains to avoid beating the frame up too much
Very informative and educational. Thank you very much
thank you for sharing your knowledge. Please keep them coming. I just got into C&B shooting last year.
Look at it from this perspective. I am going to shoot “X” number of pounds of blackpowder through a cap & ball revolver from “now” until “the end”. I don’t know this number, but that’s not important. What is important, I can buy 2 brass frame revolvers, (a 1858 & a 1860), but I had rather have these 2 revolvers than to own 1 steel frame gun. If I divide “X” pounds of blackpowder by 2, the brass frame pistols should definitely be able to handle it, as the newest Pietta’s definitely have improved brass frame metallurgy.
Terrific video!
How does load affects the stretching, say if we're shooting for fun less than 50 rounds a month... What if we reduce the powder charge say 10%? If, like you said on another video, we make sure that the cylinder to barrel transition is smooth? The only reason I favour brass is the looks. Thanks y'all !
it will take longer for the stretch to happen..how long no way of knowing
@@BLACKIETHOMAS Shoot a lot with hot loads and it will happen faster. Shoot moderate with regular loads and it can last a very long time.
Hey I bought both steel frame and brass ......the brass was very tight and still is .....but the steel frame is not and I wonder if that's a flaw I should worry about ....... when cocked the steel frame cylinder is about 1 mm away from the cone is there anything I can do about it ?????
Just a small correction. The modern reproductions by Uberti and Pietta are truely color case hardened. The italians use cyanide as a carburizing agent rather than bone charcoal but to the same end. It is not, as you stated, an applied finish.
ok i will give you that...but then why does it wipe off with vinegar? my pietta 1861 had a very nice color case pattern..i soaked it in vinegar ..no sanding..and its totally gone..i have several color case tools for a muzzleloader..they can soak in vinegar..and they didn't fade..
Likely because they were dipped in lacquer after being cased. Like Colt does with it's single action army to protect the colors. The colors by the way are the product of the quench fixing the colors of different temperatures. Colt and others in this country use an aerated, bubbled, quench to get those nice colors. The Italians use a rolling quench for not quite as nice colors. See Uberti youtube videos. In any case the colors are delicate unless protected. Vinegar will remove blueing so it will surely remove the less durable case colors.
@@denster274 Hate to disagree but color changes due to heat do not just wipe off with vinegar.
@@edstimator1 not with just a wipe. They will disappear if. You soak in vinegar as Blackie was doing to remove bluing. Heat colors are much more fragile that blueing.
I just bought a 1860 brass army is it easy to swap out the brass pietta frame with a steel one? Love the videos by the way
Great vid. I know some folks like a nice patina on their brass but if you use some Brasso it will shine like a mirror. So far haven't had any issues with the brassy's in my collection but I get what you're saying. That case hardening on your 61' Navy was beautiful.
i have had friend who wanted a cap n ball revolver to look like a factory new gun and i can fully respect that ..i guess it was because most of the guns i saw when i was young were old tired warhorses ..so to me thats how they should look
@@BLACKIETHOMAS I like both looks so have polished two of my brassers and left one to age gracefully as I'm striving to do.
new wedge and a steel shim good for another 1000
Or just file it down at the pin/pins, wherever it's getting uneven. Simple work, do it attentively, one two hours you're done. Without shims!
Thanks for great videos Blackie, very informative👍
Excellent presentation Dude! Thanks!
Wow, I'm not used to hearing the words "shooting" and "chores" used together like that. Another great video! Thanks Blackie!
Great video by the way. Thanks. I do know these brass frames are cheap. Just bought a Spiller and Burr Pietta. Can't wait o try it out. It wasn't expensive and will last a long while.
Kind of a leap of faith there donchya think? If you just bought it you really have no way of knowing how many rounds you can put through it.
Excellent video!
thank you
I had a family member who passed away gave me a 1860 and 1858 brass guns they were new in the box I have only shot them very little now that I have a steel frame I shoot a lot more
Lucky you. I'd taje a free brasser any day. As he said, you aren't going to do competition cap and ball with a brass revolver anyway. I have brass and steel. If I come across a deal on another brasser, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Why would it be dangerous to shoot a gun like that? For the reason of a bullet getting stuck in the barrel? If the bullet/ball leaves a proper rim when pushed in... the cylinder is sealed tight from chainfires! Just don't hold your fingers at the gap, and you should be fine, no? And make sure to not stand it next to anybody.. so the exhaust whistle don't go messing their hair up! :)
Wow, thanks for the info. Very cool to learn this ....
Great video
Get explanation and great video.
Glad you enjoyed it
How many grains would you recommend as a maximum "safe" load for a .44 brass frame like an 1858 or 1860? Thanks for the great content blackie.
A brass frame Army? Sure you have the right model?
@@plooker39 Yes, he's correct. My first revolver was a brass framed 1860 Army.
Thk u. interesting, educational info.
Glad it was helpful!
love this series
Great info
Hey Blacky, Just ordered a Pietta Griswold and Gunnison in .36 caliber. If I decide to antique the gun, what do I or can I do about the roll marking ( black powder only ) on the barrel. Also concerning the stretching of the brass frame, will a .36 caliber be less likely to stretch the frame then a .44 caliber? One other question. Do you use corn meal or some other fill when you charge the cylinders? I really enjoy your videos You're a great teacher. Tim
i carefully draw filed the black powder only from my barrel..and then sanded and blended it to match....yes the .36 will take much longer to shoot loose than say a .44..and finally ... no i use full charges as colt intended..thanks for the comment safe journeys
So the New ARmy Brass 44 should be an acceptable choice.It is cheaper but the strap should make the design middling strong. Strong enuf.?
Actually it's the larger, smoother bearing surface on the back of the cylinder that makes it a better brass framed revolver. It will also last longer by keeping the chamber pressures down (recoil). Max loads of 15-18 gr instead of the steel frame's 30-35 gr Max load. Also a lighter ball with less bearing surface. A .451 ball, as long as you still get a ring cut off it when loading, vs. a .454 ball in a steel frame. Skip the conicals with a brass frame.
Thank you
Blackie reminds me of a "Cooler" Billy Bob Thornton. 🤣🇺🇸👌
i have been told that quite a lot..lol
when possible the frames were made of Gunmetal or Red brass a copper tin and zinc alloy much more durable that pure copper but not as durable as steel. I suspect the copies are red brass.
Lot of interesting facts ;) Nice work!
Any stories of using a cartridge cylinder with brass?
thank you this helps me a lot.
glad to help
GOOD POINT.
And Don't forget the charge put through it, heavy charges pound a frame faster than light charges. Peitta min is 15 grain max 35 grain, In my brass I never went past 20 grain and the steel 25-27.5 grain JUST for that reason. (the brass is put away and the steel has become my 'go to' ) alongside the front stuffers.
That Guy I put 5000 rounds through my brass frame pietta with every shot consisting of 27-30 grains of powered with nearly zero stretch. I think only the clones with very poor brass have that stretching problem
Hi I was wondering what are your thoughts on the pietta 1858 army brass frame cap and ball revolver. I see its got a complete brass frame as opposed to the 1851 that has an open top frame. Do you think the 1858 would last longer than the 1851, or will it end up shooting loose after about the same amount of rounds put through it? Or should I just buy the steel frame 1851 navy yank
If you don't have a 51 Navy, get one, but in 36 Cal. Colt Navy was always in 36. 44 Cal Navy is not historically correct. If you want a 44 Cal, the Remington New Army is great. I use mine for deer and hog hunting. 30 gr fff under a 454 round ball.
I have a brass framed New Army Sheriff. It's still going strong, but I load 15-18 gr fff under a 451 ball in this gun.
Thanks, Blackie. That was some good insight. I have a brass '51 navy 36 cal I bought new out of Shotgun News in 1964 for $35. I shot maybe 2000 rounds and it was ok. But I noticed it took a very small ring off the ball when I loaded it and was fairly easy to ram in. I loaded friends guns that cut a thicker ring and was much harder to ram. It just seemed that the loading stress may have been more of a strain than shooting it. Although both contribute to stretching. Did your gun shave small or large rings and was it easy or hard to ram?
mine when i got the correct ball size was a large ring and a bit tough to ram
Ill tell ya one thing I learned from sailing, that bronze will handle corrosion from the sea and elements than steel will. that's why most boats from pre 1990 and even still some today use brass and bronze instead of stainless.
another great video! love the patina on the revolvers. any chance of a how to?
keep watching should have one in a week or less