Blue is absolutely stunning. Years ago I used to help out at our local training classes. It happened repeatedly that unless the owner put their hand into their treatbag or pocket just prior to saying the recall command a lot of the dogs would not run to them. so totally get and agree with what you said in your video.
Agreed. I've had many dogs and I used to train them with treats, like our trainers taught us. Our last dog however, I trained without treats, just with praise and her favorite toys. She's the most well behaved dog we ever had, and she's got the best recall ever.
Food is simply one type of reinforcement and it fits some situations better than others. The ball and permission to hunt are others but you need to work out which type of reinforcement is the best option for the action you want the dog to perform. Food is a basic need. That's why it works and creates clarity for the dog especially when paired with a clicker or marker. I train with the ball mostly but often revert to food for problem solving and exercises requiring fine motor skills.
as well, be it food or ball, the reward comes after the action and after marking the action required - the problem with a lot of "owners" is that they put their hand in the treat bag BEFORE they even give the command - so of course that's all the dog knows....Training the Owner is whats required many many times more then training the dog. Agree fully with what you say - it's bribary when you offer it before the dog does anything - and having your hand in that treat pouch before a command is just that.
Stonnie Dennis is in a completely different league than Mordor Gundogs, if somebody ask me. The first and also only Mordor Gundog video I¨ll use my time on
Stonie Dennis is a good example. But watch carefully when he gives the dog a treat. Treats are a good way. But the timing when. So the dog Isn’t going to be a dog who only work for the treats.
I don't really use food for training except in prey dummies for search games , I do give my dog treats just for being so good , but not as a reward for sitting, etc he's extremely well mannered I can take him anywhere
Where I live, every training method for dogs revolves around an endless supply of treats. After watching other Mordor video’s a couple of months ago, I decided to give no-treats-training a chance with our three year old Lab mix. Now I only use a sliplead, his beloved ball and a dummy. The positive changes in his behaviour are huge. But the best bit is he loves to work with me and it has made our bond even stronger!
Really easy to slip into treating them but it's good to reinforce that it's not needed. They need to do as asked and in return they are cared for and loved in their lives with us. Blue is such a stunning dog. 😍
As always charlie, you make sense, i wish i had not started treat rewards on walks as his now a year old and still pulling (although this is improving ) if i had not bribed him in the first place which did nothing for the pulling as he took treat and dashed off pulling again ,just cost a fortune in treats and endless dogs knowing me as oh she has treats in her pocket 😅. From watching yr videos i am learning and changing my behaviour and my spaniel/collie is behaving better. 90% of our walks are pull free now and not a bribe treat in sight . Thanks x
Fantastic advice and as a first time Labrador owner, I made the mistake of treat training (I did it very badly as well and was definitely a briber). I was lulled into this foolish mindset that all was going great until I had that horrible realisation and what on earth moment that my Lab didn’t actually give a stuff about me at all but instead was obsessed with anyone who wore the treat bag. I’m glad this happened to me when my Lab was at such a young age as I was able to go to a fantastic Gundog trainer with a zero tolerance on treats and I can say that our relationship has never been stronger and is based on love and respect and I am constantly trying new ways to engage her and be interesting for her.
It's really outstanding to hear at this day and age someone to say we and our dogs aren't at the same level, we're not equal, that there's a boss, an owner, a leader or whatever one likes to call it, but it's the one in charge, the one who decides and the one who takes the responsibility for the good or bad behavior of the dog, because I wonder if those pure positive, force free advocates that are so big on giving their dogs so much freedom and power to decide, if the dog messes up and bites someone, provokes an accident or what have you, then they will eventually say " oh, search me!, talk to the dog, I gave him all the freedom to decide so I can't be held accountable for what he's done". So, force free and pure positive philosophy works nicely in the books but not in real life.
Positive reinforcement is really just a tool in the box, and a good one at that, but you also need a dog to know what it mustn't do and when it is making a mistake. You can't rely on a dog to figure out what it should be doing all the time, otherwise instinct takes over and you get all sorts of undesirable behaviour.
@@neiljohnson8589 100% in agreeance with you. A fantastic tool but not applicable in all the situations and all dogs, that's why aversives and corrections are also needed, but it seems many people find it very difficult to understand something so easily understandable.
Every dog got behavoir. A dog doesn’t know good or bad. Some behavoir are on the ‘naughty list’ in the world of humans. A hunting dog, is not allowed to hunt every thing that’s moves. But it’s the only behavoir he knows. A GSD or other guard dog, is bred to guard. But have to learn that not everything is a threat or has to protect everything. When you only pay attention and praise on ‘good behavoir’, a dog is still allowed to have ‘bad behavoir’ Their is no difference between good and bad behavoir, only behavoir. A dog has to learn to deal with his behavoir and will see desired behavior. But for that you have to correct your dog. It’s a learning process. The way you correct is something else. There are many videos how to praise on good behavoir, but not when and how you have to correct your dog. We are Not always being able to predict what a dog is going to do, even though we are aware of his body language. You have to correct your dog immediately before it escalates. But… be quick with a reward when your dog is showing behavoir you want to see. After a correction always give 3 or more rewards to praise the behavoir you want to see. Because you want your dog to learn how he must deal with a situation. If a dog learn how to handle a situation, you get a confident dog. Learn more about your dog to spend time, playing games and give them trust and safety.
@@Speurneuscosmo I completely agree with you. Even though corrections are necessary, we shouldn't give them out of frustration or rage, they should be aimed at just conveying information to the dog that something he's doing is not allowed but never be cruel or used to humiliate the dog. A punishment or correction improperly applied is abusive, the dog must know what he's being corrected/punished at any time. The timing is key and we, as you say, should always give information subsequently to the dog what is right, and what's allowed and what's expected from him. Dogs are our friends and companions, we owe them respect.
@@yagovila7052totally agree. And also owners need to learn to find a good balance. unfortunately many dogschools pay less attention to tell owners about the bodylanguage of the dog. It’s like when you do listen to someone but not understand what the person is saying. Since COVID more people got a dog without knowing how to raise them. And dogsschool are to focused on the basic command than how to use those commands in real situations. You learn to drive a car, but not knowing the rules…. Luckily there are trainers put videos online.
Loving all these videos Charlie they are brilliant to watch and love the advice. I have just got a new Labrador to be a gun dog. But is being kept inside do you have any advice on keeping my working gun dog in the house. Keep up the good work mate 👍👍
Feel you're confused. Waving half a chicken at your dog to beg him to come or stop something unwanted= Bribe. Give him cue ( command), he does as asked, give him "titbit' = Reward. Very different thing. Second, as frequecy and regularity of reward is reduced motivation actually increases(Skinner). Finally, what trainer would ever deny that toys, verbal praise, affectionate touch etc are rewards? Seems arbitrary to exclude food (a primary motivator for most dods) from this list...
I do not agree on the reducing being what increases motivation - it is randomization that does that (still should be done gradually). The fact that the dog doesn't know when, how and in what form it will be rewarded. It causes similar effect as gambling for humans and the need to try again and again. But if you only reduce and still give the same treat every 10 repetitions - I don't think it will be more motivating since it is still predicitble. Otherwise I agree, I hate that people mistake rewarding with bribing. Also luring is bribing. For the dopamine to be released the dog has to make decision (what is enabled for example by shaping method). Luring is okay to start or when you can't get the behavior with shaping. But for me shaping seems to be supirior method right now. I will usually start with rewarding with food since it really easy to deliver and gives me great control over placement of reinforcement which is also super important in creating behaviors. But I will transition the value from food to toys and reward with ability to sniff, swim, run, say hi to someone. At the same time it doesn't mean luring is bad. But you have to fade the lure as soon as possible and focus on rewarding great decisions.
I really do get what you are saying and especially with retrievers I can see that your method works amazing but I do feel the best method depends on the dog and the situation. Using treats for basic puppy training can give great results . But I do recognize it can create tunnel vision for the dog if it only works for food. My 11yr old standard schnauzer is very well behaved but I have realized there are some things I could have done beter.
Great video as always!! I work explosive detection dogs and never treat reward during training. Out of interest what food do you feed your dogs, he’s a beast of a fella! 💪🏻keep up the vids 😊
Great advice again Charlie ,Ive been using treats with my two year old Cockapoo since puppy (oops) ,just for silly tricks like play dead ,roll over, take a bow etc ,he will do the same for a toy .
There are various forms of reinforcement for dogs and, as you should know, reinforcement drives behaviour. They include stimulus, activities, situations, events, and objects. These will all change as a dog grows and can change depending on your location. That's why your dog would rather work for a retrieve than food, and it's incredibly short-sighted of you not to acknowledge this. Not because you're the boss and pay the mortgage. This video speaks volumes about your ethics and personality.
There are a lot of dog are more independent than your field bred Lab. It's great your dog is super motivated by praise and toys. But my adult rescue mutt finds more reward in chasing squirrels, running at other dogs, and sniffing the ground than my praise or a ball
Everybody has a strong opinion which is in contrast with somebody's else strong opinion. I personally don't agree with this guy ideas, however i respect his opinion and i'm happy he creates content i can consume and build my own opinion upon. Cheers
So good to hear. After losing our dog I can believe how the popular culture of dog training has changed. So we’re not doing the leader/pack leader thing now and just treating them all the time? Seems like madness to me.
Rewards for your dog in the form of a treat is not a bad thing. It is especially when you are rewarded. Lure and reward is the most commonly used method to teach a dog. Then you get a dog that does it for a treat. A dog is smart, so let a dog think for itself what to do. And then reward. If a reward is varied in your training, it is always a surprise for the dog what he gets. I also compare it to the fact that dog owners sometimes want to give commands too quickly. And so you use one word too many times in a row until the dog does what you want and then you don't understand that your dog doesn't immediately do what you say. The dog only remembers that he has to sit, for example, after you have only said sit 10 times. training with reward in the form of a tasty snack. ot wrong. But learn when to give it, vary the reward and don't give a treat every time your dog does something right. Ultimately, he has to work harder to build concentration or in more difficult situations. And let your dog think for himself what to do in the initial phase, before the command. Your dog will then remember what he has learned better.
I feel personally attacked lol The guilt of knowing that my dog probably wouldn’t give me time of day without that diced chicken eats me up inside daily…. we’re moving to phase them out but I fear the damage is done! Argh! She’s a good gal though As her retrieves improve she’s learning to enjoy the work as her reward but for the little things we definitely over treat
Hi, The tile of your video, Is miss leading ? Yes you should TREAT you dog. Full stop, Has many people that own and look after there loving pets they do. working dog's run on different set of rules. has you know.
Did the person that "liked" this message even understand it? Why would anyone agree with a statement that had that many grammatical errors in a simple paragraph?!
Mate, Blue doesn’t give a shite if you give him a treat for sitting for 15 minutes or whether it’s for rolling over, he still gets a treat, he doesn’t care. The reward can be a ball ( police dogs) it doesn’t need to be grub. BTW, Blue isn’t working, he’s being a dog- you gun dog types talk some shite
If you like this episode please can you hit the like button on the video and leave a comment! Greatly appreciated 👍
Blue is absolutely stunning. Years ago I used to help out at our local training classes. It happened repeatedly that unless the owner put their hand into their treatbag or pocket just prior to saying the recall command a lot of the dogs would not run to them. so totally get and agree with what you said in your video.
Agreed. I've had many dogs and I used to train them with treats, like our trainers taught us. Our last dog however, I trained without treats, just with praise and her favorite toys. She's the most well behaved dog we ever had, and she's got the best recall ever.
Food is simply one type of reinforcement and it fits some situations better than others. The ball and permission to hunt are others but you need to work out which type of reinforcement is the best option for the action you want the dog to perform. Food is a basic need. That's why it works and creates clarity for the dog especially when paired with a clicker or marker. I train with the ball mostly but often revert to food for problem solving and exercises requiring fine motor skills.
as well, be it food or ball, the reward comes after the action and after marking the action required - the problem with a lot of "owners" is that they put their hand in the treat bag BEFORE they even give the command - so of course that's all the dog knows....Training the Owner is whats required many many times more then training the dog. Agree fully with what you say - it's bribary when you offer it before the dog does anything - and having your hand in that treat pouch before a command is just that.
Stonnie Dennis has some of the best examples of using food and positive reinforcement.
Stonnie Dennis is in a completely different league than Mordor Gundogs, if somebody ask me. The first and also only Mordor Gundog video I¨ll use my time on
@@HenningNHWhy do you not like Mordor and rate Stonie so highly?
Stonie Dennis is a good example. But watch carefully when he gives the dog a treat. Treats are a good way. But the timing when. So the dog Isn’t going to be a dog who only work for the treats.
I don't really use food for training except in prey dummies for search games , I do give my dog treats just for being so good , but not as a reward for sitting, etc he's extremely well mannered I can take him anywhere
Where I live, every training method for dogs revolves around an endless supply of treats. After watching other Mordor video’s a couple of months ago, I decided to give no-treats-training a chance with our three year old Lab mix. Now I only use a sliplead, his beloved ball and a dummy. The positive changes in his behaviour are huge. But the best bit is he loves to work with me and it has made our bond even stronger!
Really easy to slip into treating them but it's good to reinforce that it's not needed. They need to do as asked and in return they are cared for and loved in their lives with us. Blue is such a stunning dog. 😍
As always charlie, you make sense, i wish i had not started treat rewards on walks as his now a year old and still pulling (although this is improving ) if i had not bribed him in the first place which did nothing for the pulling as he took treat and dashed off pulling again ,just cost a fortune in treats and endless dogs knowing me as oh she has treats in her pocket 😅. From watching yr videos i am learning and changing my behaviour and my spaniel/collie is behaving better. 90% of our walks are pull free now and not a bribe treat in sight . Thanks x
We are loving your videos Charlie. Greetings from Norfolk.
I support your decision to not treat. A simple touch of affection will get the results you want.
Fantastic advice and as a first time Labrador owner, I made the mistake of treat training (I did it very badly as well and was definitely a briber). I was lulled into this foolish mindset that all was going great until I had that horrible realisation and what on earth moment that my Lab didn’t actually give a stuff about me at all but instead was obsessed with anyone who wore the treat bag. I’m glad this happened to me when my Lab was at such a young age as I was able to go to a fantastic Gundog trainer with a zero tolerance on treats and I can say that our relationship has never been stronger and is based on love and respect and I am constantly trying new ways to engage her and be interesting for her.
Stunning dog Charlie.
It's really outstanding to hear at this day and age someone to say we and our dogs aren't at the same level, we're not equal, that there's a boss, an owner, a leader or whatever one likes to call it, but it's the one in charge, the one who decides and the one who takes the responsibility for the good or bad behavior of the dog, because I wonder if those pure positive, force free advocates that are so big on giving their dogs so much freedom and power to decide, if the dog messes up and bites someone, provokes an accident or what have you, then they will eventually say " oh, search me!, talk to the dog, I gave him all the freedom to decide so I can't be held accountable for what he's done". So, force free and pure positive philosophy works nicely in the books but not in real life.
Positive reinforcement is really just a tool in the box, and a good one at that, but you also need a dog to know what it mustn't do and when it is making a mistake.
You can't rely on a dog to figure out what it should be doing all the time, otherwise instinct takes over and you get all sorts of undesirable behaviour.
@@neiljohnson8589 100% in agreeance with you. A fantastic tool but not applicable in all the situations and all dogs, that's why aversives and corrections are also needed, but it seems many people find it very difficult to understand something so easily understandable.
Every dog got behavoir. A dog doesn’t know good or bad. Some behavoir are on the ‘naughty list’ in the world of humans. A hunting dog, is not allowed to hunt every thing that’s moves. But it’s the only behavoir he knows. A GSD or other guard dog, is bred to guard. But have to learn that not everything is a threat or has to protect everything. When you only pay attention and praise on ‘good behavoir’, a dog is still allowed to have ‘bad behavoir’ Their is no difference between good and bad behavoir, only behavoir. A dog has to learn to deal with his behavoir and will see desired behavior. But for that you have to correct your dog. It’s a learning process. The way you correct is something else. There are many videos how to praise on good behavoir, but not when and how you have to correct your dog. We are Not always being able to predict what a dog is going to do, even though we are aware of his body language. You have to correct your dog immediately before it escalates. But… be quick with a reward when your dog is showing behavoir you want to see. After a correction always give 3 or more rewards to praise the behavoir you want to see. Because you want your dog to learn how he must deal with a situation. If a dog learn how to handle a situation, you get a confident dog. Learn more about your dog to spend time, playing games and give them trust and safety.
@@Speurneuscosmo I completely agree with you. Even though corrections are necessary, we shouldn't give them out of frustration or rage, they should be aimed at just conveying information to the dog that something he's doing is not allowed but never be cruel or used to humiliate the dog. A punishment or correction improperly applied is abusive, the dog must know what he's being corrected/punished at any time. The timing is key and we, as you say, should always give information subsequently to the dog what is right, and what's allowed and what's expected from him. Dogs are our friends and companions, we owe them respect.
@@yagovila7052totally agree. And also owners need to learn to find a good balance. unfortunately many dogschools pay less attention to tell owners about the bodylanguage of the dog. It’s like when you do listen to someone but not understand what the person is saying. Since COVID more people got a dog without knowing how to raise them. And dogsschool are to focused on the basic command than how to use those commands in real situations. You learn to drive a car, but not knowing the rules…. Luckily there are trainers put videos online.
Loving all these videos Charlie they are brilliant to watch and love the advice. I have just got a new Labrador to be a gun dog. But is being kept inside do you have any advice on keeping my working gun dog in the house.
Keep up the good work mate 👍👍
Feel you're confused. Waving half a chicken at your dog to beg him to come or stop something unwanted= Bribe.
Give him cue ( command), he does as asked, give him "titbit' = Reward. Very different thing.
Second, as frequecy and regularity of reward is reduced motivation actually increases(Skinner).
Finally, what trainer would ever deny that toys, verbal praise, affectionate touch etc are rewards? Seems arbitrary to exclude food (a primary motivator for most dods) from this list...
I do not agree on the reducing being what increases motivation - it is randomization that does that (still should be done gradually). The fact that the dog doesn't know when, how and in what form it will be rewarded. It causes similar effect as gambling for humans and the need to try again and again. But if you only reduce and still give the same treat every 10 repetitions - I don't think it will be more motivating since it is still predicitble. Otherwise I agree, I hate that people mistake rewarding with bribing. Also luring is bribing. For the dopamine to be released the dog has to make decision (what is enabled for example by shaping method). Luring is okay to start or when you can't get the behavior with shaping. But for me shaping seems to be supirior method right now. I will usually start with rewarding with food since it really easy to deliver and gives me great control over placement of reinforcement which is also super important in creating behaviors. But I will transition the value from food to toys and reward with ability to sniff, swim, run, say hi to someone. At the same time it doesn't mean luring is bad. But you have to fade the lure as soon as possible and focus on rewarding great decisions.
I really do get what you are saying and especially with retrievers I can see that your method works amazing but I do feel the best method depends on the dog and the situation. Using treats for basic puppy training can give great results . But I do recognize it can create tunnel vision for the dog if it only works for food. My 11yr old standard schnauzer is very well behaved but I have realized there are some things I could have done beter.
What a stamp of dog he is that is what I call a Labrador
I had a border collie and I never gave him treats when training him. He was a brilliant dog, and managed quite well without them.
I definitely enjoyed it !!!
Great video as always!! I work explosive detection dogs and never treat reward during training. Out of interest what food do you feed your dogs, he’s a beast of a fella! 💪🏻keep up the vids 😊
It works better when used according to the principles of classical conditioning. Conditioned stimulus - conditioned response + timing
Preach.
Great advice again Charlie ,Ive been using treats with my two year old Cockapoo since puppy (oops) ,just for silly tricks like play dead ,roll over, take a bow etc ,he will do the same for a toy .
Can you do a video on training a cocker to sit on flush?
There are various forms of reinforcement for dogs and, as you should know, reinforcement drives behaviour. They include stimulus, activities, situations, events, and objects. These will all change as a dog grows and can change depending on your location.
That's why your dog would rather work for a retrieve than food, and it's incredibly short-sighted of you not to acknowledge this.
Not because you're the boss and pay the mortgage.
This video speaks volumes about your ethics and personality.
There are a lot of dog are more independent than your field bred Lab. It's great your dog is super motivated by praise and toys. But my adult rescue mutt finds more reward in chasing squirrels, running at other dogs, and sniffing the ground than my praise or a ball
🎉def enjoyed the advice
Where did you buy that fur dye ?
Everybody has a strong opinion which is in contrast with somebody's else strong opinion. I personally don't agree with this guy ideas, however i respect his opinion and i'm happy he creates content i can consume and build my own opinion upon. Cheers
Love the zealous use of the word "tidbit"!
It’s titbit in England
So good to hear. After losing our dog I can believe how the popular culture of dog training has changed. So we’re not doing the leader/pack leader thing now and just treating them all the time? Seems like madness to me.
How many cups of food do you feed a lab for a meal & how many meals per day ..just dry dog food ? A video please
Haha sooooooo true.
"Bribe" is the prefect word
Rewards for your dog in the form of a treat is not a bad thing. It is especially when you are rewarded. Lure and reward is the most commonly used method to teach a dog. Then you get a dog that does it for a treat. A dog is smart, so let a dog think for itself what to do. And then reward. If a reward is varied in your training, it is always a surprise for the dog what he gets. I also compare it to the fact that dog owners sometimes want to give commands too quickly. And so you use one word too many times in a row until the dog does what you want and then you don't understand that your dog doesn't immediately do what you say. The dog only remembers that he has to sit, for example, after you have only said sit 10 times. training with reward in the form of a tasty snack. ot wrong. But learn when to give it, vary the reward and don't give a treat every time your dog does something right. Ultimately, he has to work harder to build concentration or in more difficult situations. And let your dog think for himself what to do in the initial phase, before the command. Your dog will then remember what he has learned better.
How much do you feed labs & how often ?
Do you train luring? If so, what do you use (instead of treats)?
I believe he has videos on gundog training which cover luring.
I feel personally attacked lol
The guilt of knowing that my dog probably wouldn’t give me time of day without that diced chicken eats me up inside daily…. we’re moving to phase them out but I fear the damage is done! Argh! She’s a good gal though
As her retrieves improve she’s learning to enjoy the work as her reward but for the little things we definitely over treat
Our dog got the table leftovers as a kid
A working and non working dogs are trained on a different set
Hi, The tile of your video, Is miss leading ? Yes you should TREAT you dog. Full stop, Has many people that own and look after there loving pets they do. working dog's run on different set of rules. has you know.
Did the person that "liked" this message even understand it? Why would anyone agree with a statement that had that many grammatical errors in a simple paragraph?!
Plus the fact dogs didn't come from wolves. Where did the wild dogs come from then in other countries.?.
No dogs aren’t equals which is why comparing dog training to socialising kids is a fatuous observation.
Mate, Blue doesn’t give a shite if you give him a treat for sitting for 15 minutes or whether it’s for rolling over, he still gets a treat, he doesn’t care. The reward can be a ball ( police dogs) it doesn’t need to be grub. BTW, Blue isn’t working, he’s being a dog- you gun dog types talk some shite