Odon #7: Why & How did the Abbasids make Muhammad?
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2021
- The Muhammad we know of today was created by the Abbasids in the 8th and 9th centuries, and then redacted back on to the 7th century.
But why and how did they need to create him? This is the question Odon answers here.
To understand it one has to return to the 7th century where there were warring Arab leaders who were waiting for the Messiah to return, and when he didn't they took on his Messianic figure for themselves, and often referred to themselves as 'Muhammad', which in Arabic means 'The Praised one'.
But it wasn't until Abd al-Malik, who considered himself as the 'caliph of God', that a revelation and a prophet, followed by a place was really needed for the Arab people.
This was later solidified under the Abbasid rule, post 749 AD. But they couldn't invent a religion out of nothing, because there was already a historical core which was dependent on a text (the early Qur'an), and existing buildings (such as the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem).
Similar to Mormonism, which needed a book and a prophet to give them theological legitimacy, so did the Umayyads and subsequently the Abbasids need the same legitimacy.
So, the nascent Qur'an was pre-Islamic, thus an Islamic narrative needed to be created to then make it Islamic.
This desire to create that narrative was referred to by the French Islamicist Henri Lammens (d. 1940) who said:
"Just like the corpus of the Muslim Tradition, the inspiration for the SIra is first and foremost exegetical, derived from the text of the Qur'an. The Sira was intended to serve as a commentary in action. It must be translated into precise and picturesque anecdotes, the most obscure illusions, the least intelligible innuendos of the verses, hunting down the animus, the impersonal, so disconcerting in the reading of the Surahs, everywhere, so-to-speak, affix commemorative places, multiplied dimensions of proper names, dates, so carefully avoided by Muhammad. So, this was exegetical in the first instance, so that the Sira is doctrinal, but with more abandonment, with a sensible affectation than in the traditions itself."
Thus, as Lammens suggests, the Standard Islamic Narrative was created to make that which wasn't Islamic (the Qur'an) into an Islamic narrative.
That explains why the SIN are so big and long and so descriptive, as they were the vehicle which made sense of what had been before, and given it a body.
Muhammad's title existed in the 7th century, used by various Arab caliphs to give them authority as the 'blessed one of God', so this name was quite familiar to those living in that century.
Some historical memory existed, and couldn't be done away with (i.e. the story of the Mi'raj) so they were used to give authority to existing structures. Thus, the Miraj became a vehicle to explain the Dome of the Rock as the place Muhammad went up to the 7 heavens, though nothing on the structure itself refers to that event.
The story of Muhammad was also used by the Caliphs to hang their difficult practices upon. Since Muhammad killed his critics, so could they then do the same.
In time the initial legend became so embellished that it then took on a life of its own, similar to other well known legends (i.e. Robin Hood, or Santa Claus, or King Arthur of Camelot).
In conclusion, there are 5 takeaways:
1) The Arabs needed a prophet like the Jews and the Christians had.
2) Prophets needed a revelation, but the one which existed for the Arabs (the Qur'an) had to be explained, thus the 200 years it took to write the Sira, and the 240 years it took to write the Hadith.
3) The Abbasids couldn't destroy the history already well known (i.e. the Dome of the Rock and the Coins), so they created a new narrative.
4) The name 'Muhammad' already existed as 'The Praised One', and was used by many Caliphs, so the Abbasids took that name and created a prophet using that name (i.e. see this evolution in the Rock Inscriptions).
5) The Caliphs needed legitimacy for their questionable actions, so they used Muhammad's biography to hang those actions on to and give themselves the legitimacy they desired, following his example.
This was all known are written about almost 100 years ago in the quote above!
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2021
(57,400) Music: "Natural Paradise" by Musiclfiles, from filmmusic-io
![MHMD [18] Here's all you need to know about Islam's "MHMD" in ONE VIDEO!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CBT3VNH4DQw/mqdefault.jpg)
Brilliant, settled the whole history of Islam, finally. Thanks odon
Bullshit does not baffle all brains.
Dr Jay and Odon thank you so much for uploading this video was waiting for this one.
No Islam anymore, I listen to this and also follow the Ap and Islamic scholar Nasser yesterday, its clear as crystal
That means any "Qur'anic" manuscript from before the approximate middle of the 7th century won't have the additional verses that abrogate prior ones, unless they have been inserted at a later date. It also means the later Caliphs who created the religion were guilty of all the crimes and bad behaviors attributed to Mohammed.
It is hard to draw the line between invented ebellishments and accurate recollections. Although clearly the Qu'ran and Sira and Hadiths were cut and paste jobs, there likely is more truth and factual narrative than we are assuming. A great deal of Islam is stitched together from prior narratives and invented, but there is very likely to be a substantially accurate narrative backbone otherwise the earliest Muslims would have rejected the Islam project.
@@ArchKomposerit seems like you underestimate the ability and influence of rulers with absolute power and monopoly of violence
They could've invented everything and told the scholars subject to the crown to spread that completely invented story and the earliest muslims would have no choice to accept it
The only thing the abbasids didn't invent for sure was quran, everything else was pure invention including all the companions prophet and 4 caliphs
The Abbasids it turns out were geniuses in the art of creative conspiracy.
No where near as "Geniusee" as Odin and Jay. These 2 take the gold medal at the "geniuse" olympics for bullshit and deceit.
@@sidprice6214 refute it
@@frankjaeger9068 Refute what? Which Abbasids where geniuses - what are their names? Did they split the atom or perform some other miraculous matter that confers genius status on them? What is the "art of creative conspiracy"? Did the Abbasid write the book on this? Outline 3 "creative conspiracies" of the Abbasids?
@@sidprice6214 ,1, The Qur'an.
2, Muhammad.
3, Allah.
GENIUS.
They rival Joseph Smith and his inner circle.
Thank you Odon and Jay..
Jesus is the Holiest and most perfect example to have walked the earth.. yes.
He was and is God incarnate ultimate and final Revelation
So Koran is Jewish Apocrapha and Christian gnostic Arian texts mashed with historical person myth made into Muhammed?
Islam totally man made book and Muhammed was real historical person made into myth one
Jesus is God
Jesus Created by The Roman's, and the Son of the God Title Came from Persian Religion Mithraism which was prevalent during the time of Jesus. If Islam is False, then how could be there any evidence of Historical Jesus, Jesus was just a Jewish Rabbi who rebelled against the Romans and the corrupt Rabbis for that cause he was persecuted on the cross. He was a freedom fighter not God or Son of God.
I was so confused seeing you two interact and look at each other at the beginning. Haha. You guys are having fun.
Islamic Muhammad is like Santa 🎅 ... what a gem :-D
And Jesus Christ is Like Thor😀
Not like Santa. Santa [Ni]klaus or Saint Nicholas has a historical basis in the Greek Archbishop of Myra in the early fourth century.
@@mohdsultan9433 In what way? Thor was not incarnated. He did not preach a message of love, humility, and forgiveness. He was not betrayed and brutally executed. He did not rise from the dead. I fail to see meaningful parallels.
At least Santa brings presents to children 😂
Everything about Islam has no reliable references so it is questionable 😂
Like seriously? nd you are still Muslim,right? 2 billion Muslims are not mad.... ok You have to do some research that how Beautiful religion it is....
In khayamat you will see yourself astagfirullah there are so many proofs but the disbelievers r disbelievers may allah give you hidayah ameen
@@hamnasheikh4020 Apostates are killed. 90% do not read the Quran in Arabic and understand it. Lies and deception are part and parcel of the doctrines. Brainwashing from a very young age. Take a look at North Korea and you will see near identical indoctrination and how it affects the people who literally worship their leader.
@@hasandawah456 Turning anyone into a pimp is a vile act. And yet you do it everyday to who you call your god. You must be out of your mind but of course you are not. You are merely delusional and brainwashed from an early age to accept a pimp as a deity even though in this life you are taught to detest pimps.
@@hasandawah456 Zero proofs.
King Arthur is a great example - also a big king for the brits after the century of chaos following 536.
Andrew Staden makes a strong case that the legends of King Arthur were actually inspired by the life of King Alfred the Great, but his book is currently out of print.
@@michaels4255 Inspired, okay but not true and same goes here. Muh inspired by Jesus, Ibn Qabisha Tayyae and a real Omar. Mecca might been Jerushalem, Petra and other places like Kufa.
Arthur and Beowulf are good literature, standing on their own merit without extra claims, not idiot rants.
Wow, some scholars knew about the fraud of Islam a century ago. So why are we just finding out ? Well I think it's thanks to the internet/social media and all of you tireless Christian apologists; warriors for Christ. God bless you all. What a tapestry of gifts that the LORD has put together in all of you. It is amazing to watch.
I hope you understand that there are a similar set of facts and arguments about Christianity (and Judaism) and they all fail on the simple fact that there is nothing supernatural in our existence. Nothing. ALL of this is like arguing about the birthplace and parents of Santa Claus.
@@lawdon9956 Christianity was definitely made up, but Judaism wasn’t, at the beginning jews probably did believe in god, and they weren’t aware of the power of religion
Christians digging their own grave
Abd al-Malik appropriating the MHMD title along with others was demonstrated very well in the video covering the coins. The Abbassids built on this authority with the subequent writing of hadiths, sira. Caliphs confronted any opposition to them using often horrific stories that ended badly for anyone opposing Islam. It was Political Islam that keeps this unending war going until they have chains around our necks, as is written in their books.
Thank you Pfander for answering my question, what you said makes so much sense.
You guys are now best friends for life lol! Je suis content pour vous. Bravo à vous deux. Merci.
Will all this finding be documented in the national geography because the audience are much bigger
The real findings are documented in the history books. Rubbish is generally relegated to the trash can and crap to the toilet.
@@sidprice6214 tisk, tisk, this must cut pretty close to the bone. You can’t refute it so you resort to insults. I’ve seen some of your other comments. You realise that you just look weak?
The Abbasids learned their art from the Jews and Christians before them.
When it’s embarrassing it is weak. When it’s not logical it’s not generally accepted. When it promotes Islam and its weak. They say a weak hadith is also acceptable
Weak has nothing to do with embarrassing. It has to to do with truth and accuracy.
Islam was cooked up.
Look closely - you'll see its actually your brain thats cooked.
@jazzymiles miles Aage English shikh re matha mota.
There was no Muhammad as is presented today.
You don't have counter arguments. So you talk nonsense.
@@sidprice6214 Where is your counter evidence?
@@jadabeswarbhattacharjee3537 What makes you think i need to provide counter evidence for this rubbish? You are obviously too lazy or inept to read western scholarly historical text books which is why you just rely on BS from bigots like Odin and Jay. And since you don't know it Odin is merely regurgitating what his mentor has been whispering in his ear.
@@sidprice6214 I understand the compulsion of your "Iman".
No question, no doubt and no argument.
LOL
Thank you both for this video, it's very informative.
Jesus Christ bless Dr. Jay Smith alongwith The Pfanders.
Love from Indonesian Christian...
Not directly related to that session; who and how Mecca was built? Any idea of its development phases?
I think Mecca was the best place to chose for the Abbasids. There was nothing and you could easily place a fictional character at this fictional new place. No people there who could decline their story. On the other hand no eyewitnesses who could confirm Mohammad.
@Ades Punch ya The Abbasids build Mecca for their fictional story or why do you think that there are no historical evidence from 7th century for Mecca?
@Ades Punch ya No evidence of Makka existing before the 8th century.
@Ades Punch ya There is no evidence that prior to 740.A.D. something happened in Mecca. Forget Abraham
@Ades Punch ya According to who Abraham was in Mecca? According to Abbasid writers from 9th century?
C'mon bro
There is a tombstone of a lady named Abāssa Bint Juraij from 691AD which says: "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. The greatest calamity of the people of Islām (ahl al-Islām) is that which has fallen them on the death of Muḥammad the Prophet"
This text makes no sense if 'Muhammad' referred to Abd al-Malik, since he wasn't dead then. And Jesus' death would not have been a calamity for an Ebionite Christian. The Doctrina Iacobi from the mid-7th century mentions expansively how Jerusalem was conquered by an Arab prophet. And I remember Mu'awiya using the name Muhmmad on an inscription on a bridge, although unfortunately I can't find the source for that claim anymore. It is however peculiar that the early Arab armies left rock inscriptions referring to 'the God of Abraham/Mozes/Aaron', but never the God of Jesus or Muhammad. So I'm still open to the idea that Mu'awiya, Umar or Ali is the first man to refer to himself as 'the Muhammad'.
If seen other inscriptions of people in Arabia mentioning Mohammed as a prophet in the late 7th century. The person definitely did exist if you take all the inscriptions and Christian contemporary texts. Maybe the abbasids made some embellishments here and there, but the preacher Mohammed that United the Arabs definitely did exist in the 7th century
@@TheUnique69ableThere´s a list of references to ´MHMD´ from the 7th century on Islamic-Awareness, and this tombstone is the only one I could find with Muhammad referenced as a prophet and it not being likely to refer to Jesus. I also don´t think this prophet united the Arabs. Most Arabs were Trinitarian Christians at the time of the conquests.
@@robertdegroot8302 United them politically and socially and not religiously. Even until the end of the 8th century, the Arabs in North Syria near aleppo remained orthodox Christians
All roads lead to Ummah.
The man and the book, the book and the man...the riddle seems to be slowly getting solved....meanwhile I as a viewer wait with bated breath for more...God bless you gentlemen.
I think the sunni shia divide could be a good place to look for answers.
A question for Odon: could the conflict between the sunni and the shia be sourced back to a conflict of dominance between the Lakhmids and the Ghassanids?
I always thought that. Because Shia Iranian Islam is fueled by anti-arabism.
@@lainfamia8949 not only that.
Ali (4th caliph) and his gang appear in kufa in the hadiths, like one moment they are down in mecca with muhamad, and the next they are in Iraq like its a walk in the park.
also kufa is where the lakhmids were at.
i think this whole shia sunni divide is actually traced back to a lakhmid ghassanid power struggle.
the ghassanids were in the west (umar muawiya) and the lakhmids were in the east (ali and hussein)
@@Danielst15lm Probably you are right and that power moved to the East, in that Khorasan, Iran and Central Asia Power.
Even they invented that they invented that the Family of Ali intermixed with a Kosra High-Royalty persian queen and gave born to the 4th Imam: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahrbanu
It might have played a part. But I think mostly that the conflict between Sunni & Shia is more of an issue between pure messianists and the military caste, or junta, within the Abbasid coalition
@@OdonLafontaine Mr Odon you should read the book "La revolución islámica de Occidente" from Ignacio Olagüe I think it's in french, he was a spanish historian who postulated like you in this case it centrates in Spain-Europe history that the "Arab invasion of Iberia" and this 7-th century Islam it was a fraud,
And the reality was a Vandal-Germanic invasion that years later the "muslims" rewriten the history. And that Tareq Ibn Ziyad his true name was vandal warchief, but the Umayyad invented the story after fleeing from Siria.
The one thing that had bothered me for so long is : where are the writings of the Ummayads. Where is everything that has been written before the 800s when Bukhari and pals started the haadiths and the SIra started to emerge.
There have to be some writings , somewhere.. Where is Ibn Ishaq original? Where are the originals? Where are the original haadiths that Bukhari used??
When the Arabs conquered Persia, they burned every book they could find.
@@fantasia55not just Persia. Everywhere. Super iconoclastic. They destroyed SO much when they conquered places.
Thus the development of Islam was ostensibly empire-building, which at that time always required signs of divine authority: a universal religion driven by the need for political unity of disparate groups under the leadership of conquering pagan Arabs influenced by regional Jewish and Christian ideas of the sacred; but also an identity forged over and against these now enemies, the Jews, Judeo-Nazarenes, non-Islamic monophysites and (diaphysite) Christians (and later, all non-muslims).
One can't create a "legitimate" religion out of whole cloth and expect anyone except a small few to follow it. Like any heresy or pagan religion, it's development is most effective by being parasitic on already existing, popular and sacred religious doctrines, and succeeds only when supported by political or military power (cf. pre-Constantinian Christianity).
In summary, Islam is therefore the influence upon the Abbasids of Jewish monotheism (Jerusalem; the Temple; Allah; Hajj; rituals) and Judeo-Nazarene messianism (especially the Hebrew idea of Mahmad/Mahammadim) filling in of the rest from the preaching of Christian monophysites (Issa and Maryam; Djibril; Shahada) yet breaking with these, and amalgamating these messages with the history and activities of the old Ummayad caliphs. The result? The desired religion vindicating military and political power.
Great work, Odon and Jay.
Looking at the big picture, I’m absolutely with Odon. However, in the details I have an alternative explanation. Important for the historisation are two elements:
1) it has already been established that the oldest parts of the Quran have been written as notes of sermons. These sermons were held by early Aramaic speaking missionaries. The preacher(s) in the Quran is(/are) not named.
2) The word Muhammad means „praised be“ in Aramaic, used as title for Jesus. Arab speakers eventually misread it as a name. Soon, with Abd al-Malik‘s arabisation policy, Arabs couldn’t understand Muhammad in any way other than a name.
In a slow process of at least 100 years, the unnamed preacher is combined with the word Muhammad. At first Muhammad is still only a preacher, but with rising importance he becomes the Seal of the Prophets, a concept nicked from Manichaeism.
Further down the line in the 9th century, the emerging clerical class is confronted with many verses that simply don’t make sense, so they write pseudo-biographical stories that provide context to those verses. Gabriel Said Reynolds breaks this down nicely.
For example, the entire story of the Hijra has been spun around one of these obscure passages, talking about “refugees“ and “helpers“ who will be among the first in paradise. Based on that, 9th century writers assumed that there must have been a flight, a “Hijra“ and that there must have been helpers (the Medinans). As Robert Kerr showed, this is yet another misreading of Aramaic words. The passage doesn’t mention “refugees“ and “helpers“ but “Arabs“ and “Christians“, a reflection of the new political landscape after the pagan Sasanians have been kicked out of Syria.
Another example is the “Seal of the Prophets“ which has been interpreted literally by some biographers as a birthmark, spinning stories about that, like that of a Nestorian monk who recognises Muhamnad‘s importance as a child after seeing the “seal“ or birthmark.
I fully agree
The existence of an actual person bearing the Muhammad title in the early 7th cent. is nothing but an historical hypothesis. A probable one, I think, but the hypothesis you propose is also coherent and interesting
Interesting post.
Isn't the meaning of Muḥammad "the one to be praised"?
@@sylvainromain7884 this is the meaning that the Islamic Narrative has imposed. But originally, it meant "the one who is desired, who is coveted"
what do they claim diferently?
I suppose the biggest problem for truth is that most people don't seem to care for it. Back then, people didn't bother to check the historicity. Same these days, when something is on the mainstream media, it is very true, so don't use your brain first! God loves those who seek truth, and they will find Him (i.e. the Truth, Jesus).
Make sense, God bless...
Good job Guys
( 750 -1258) ruling the Islsmic empire especially from their capital Baghdad and claiming descent from Abbas the uncle of Mohd .
Secondly ,Prophet mohd's night journey in the sky and ascent into heaven , and some say it was nothing more than a Dream . But the dispute that us now rocking the muslim world is not about whether that famous night journey occurred or was dreamt . Has to do with question of where Al - Aqsa ( the farthest ) mosque from whence - according to muslim tradition - mohd set off on his way into heaven , is located. ....WHEN WAS AL -AQSA BUILT, AND WHEN DID MOHD WHEN THERE ..ALL ARE LIES FROM MUSLIMS.....
It seems that if you read the chapter 16, this journey is about Moses. Not sure, remember heard it once.
@@twnb7733 Can you show me , 16 of what ....
@@dollahmusa6705 Actually, the Quran is full of Moses....The Jews and Christians are considered as peoples of Book in the Quran, never the Muslims. The Quran is always put in parentheses, added by someone. Just remember this theses.
@@twnb7733 Widespread Muslims belief backed by religious literature says that the angel gabriel was revealed to mohd in mecca , riding a winged beast named al - Buraq . Mohd took the angel up on hus invitation to ride it into the sky ,but made an important stop at Al- Aqsa .....
@@dollahmusa6705 Yes, but even islam requires at least 2,3 witnesses as the Law of Moses. There is no witness, when everyone is sleeping! And the Al-Aqsa was built in 705, so there was no Mosque al-Aqsa either.
I hope Jay and Odin can explain if muhammed and possibly the original 4 "rightly guided caliphs" never existed, how the Sunni/Shia divide came about and fits into this narrative. The first shia caliphate was in Morocco, and then the next was the fatimad caliphate centered in Cairo. Both the Ummayyeds and abassids are known as "sunni" caliphates. It seems like "shia" and "sunni" islam seems like a later invention redacted on to the caliphates to describe their differences. Would any of these caliphates during their time describe themselves as "sunni" or shia"?
We must absolutely program a video on the Sunni/Shia divide
@@OdonLafontaine Thank you. Looking forward to it!
@@OdonLafontaine I'm a Muslim and you have opened my mind, thank you. My question is when the anti-Trinitarian Christian Arabs decided to switch to a "new" prophet Mohamed, over a hundred years after his death, the empire was already very large, from Spain to Afghanistan. How and why did they all accept to adopt this new prophet. Did some want to remain anti-Trinitarian Christians ? if so is this documented ?
Me thinks it's tribal in fighting as to which tribe is the claimant to the divine caliphate with regards to the end times and return of the Messiah. As far as I understand, that's one of the areas the Sunni's and Shia disagree on regarding the return of the Mahdi... It's just a hypothesis, but it seems that there is a lot of politics at play in the foundations of Islam.
If Shia started in the far west then their scribes would attempt to write-in a character with a blood-line legitimacy to Abd-al-Malik, who referred to himself as The Praise One - MHMD. To them, the Abbasids are usurpers.
There much have been a person like Muhammed.... for inspiration.
Can't make this just up.
The Dynamic Duo strike again !!
One question that do bothers me. About about the secular literature that were written at that time in that area, and how they have handled Islam and its prophet(s).
For example, the 1001 Arabian Nights stories almost looks like the Caliph Harun al Rashid was a Prophet himself and God's chosen man beside being a ruler.
I don't remember reading about Prophet Muhammad there though.
Nor do I remember people talking about Quran the holiest of holy book. I may be wrong though. It was long time since when I read them.
There were Jews and Christians though in the stories.
This is a very interesting lead. I'll ask my friend Robert Kerr.
Interesting
very good point
Thanks a lot for mentionning Father Henri Lammens.
Executing critics was more likely meant to protect the caliphs and religious leaders. The caliphs and even religious leaders are seen as leaders defined and approved by their god. Hence, criticizing them is akin to going against their god and is deemed blasphemous.
A Khalifa and a Pope is not the same thing. You need to check your facts before talking such rubbish.
@@sidprice6214 Pope owns islam.
@@sidprice6214 You are right about Yod Hay Waw Shin Waw Ayin(YaHuWSHuWa). A somali offered me a koran and I told him I have the truth in my heart and rejected his offer. So he said " I told you what I believe, so you tell me what you believe." And I told him about The Father YaHuWaH and Son, YaHuSHuWa and when he repeated YaHuSHuWa, we heard a loud ovation and he even said it was angels and we saw a horizontal rainbow and a cardinal was flying across it and we both said it was a miracle. But he is still muslim. Even though the LOUD CLAPPING OVATION happened when the muslim somali said YaHuWSHuWa.
No one was around us when the loud ovation happened and he was looking behind me and I was looking behind him to see where the ovation came from because the sound of the ovation surrounded us and my heart was pounding in fear like what just happened?
No matter how much I've stalled THE INEVITABLE FUTURE TIMELINE, THE INEVITABLE FUTURE TIMELINE will come into fruition.
1. The sick children will be healed with utterrance of THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES, YAHUWSHUWA.
2. The heavens will open on Earth for all to witness as the angels will commune with the healed children as the children heal the sick and feed the poor in THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES, YAHUWSHUWA.
3. The multitudes all over the world will learn of YAHUWSHUWA. As that is the true Good News that will be preached and demonstrated for them to witness.
4. AT THAT POINT THOSE MULTITUDES OF PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD WHO CALLED UNTO YAHUWSHUWA TO FEED THE POOR AND HEAL THE SICK WILL KNOW THEY WILL NEVER DIE OR BE HURT DURING TRIBULATION.
5. THOSE HUMAN MULTITUDES WILL LOVE EVERYONE, EVEN THOSE WHO HATE THEM BECAUSE YAHUWSHUWA TAUGHT THEM THAT HIGHEST LEVEL OF LOVE WILL SHOW THAT YOU HAVE ARE SINCERE WHEN YOU CALL OUT TO YAHUWSHUWA. YOU WILL HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND REALISE YOUR EXISTENCE WILL BE LOVE AND PARADISE.
6. THE ANGELS WILL SEPARATE THOSE WITH HATE IN THEIR HEARTS AND INTENTIONS OF VIOLENCE. AS THOSE WHO CALL UNTO YAHUWSHUWA WILL NEVER DO VIOLENCE EVER. SO THOSE WHO CHOSE TO FIGHT WILL BE DOING SIN.
7.THANKFULLY EARTH WILL BE CHANGED TO HEAVEN EVEN BEFORE THAT PROCESS, WE WILL BE WAITING AS OUR BODY PERMEATES WITH THE BEST FEELING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLING WITHIN US.
I FORGOT TO MENTION PEOPLE WILL BE RAISED FROM THE DEAD IN YAHUWSHUWA'S NAME AS THE SICK IS HEALED AND POOR BEING FED HAPPENS.
Re: He made the ILLUminati an ofFer thEy Could not refusE!!
Quoting: AlphabetA "They can certainly refuse, but refusal will result in falling forever down the deepest depths of this hell we're all stuck in.. So, why not just help everyone out of here, with everyones help?"
"Love those who hate you and persecute you." -YAHUWSHUWA
"Forgive them. They know not what they do." -YAHUWSHUWA
"None is good but The Father(YAHUWAH)" -YAHUWSHUWA
"“Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." -YAHUWSHUWA
"Those who understand WILL NOT TASTE HARM OR DEATH." -YAHUWSHUWA
"The man aged in days will not hesitate to ask a little child of seven days about the place of life, and he shall live; for there are many first who shall be last, and they will become a single one." -YAHUWSHUWA
The final tribulation will be conquered not by violence, but by FEEDING THE POOR AND HEALING THOSE WHO ARE SICK AND RESSURECTING THE DEAD IN YAHUWSHUWA'S NAME
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repent, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. -YAHUWSHUWA.
Amen. ruclips.net/video/oqV4Rwz2e8A/видео.html
@@nicktronson2977 What is all this crock? Why don't you just make one or two points at a time so that people can at least try an understand what rubbish you are espousing.
Don't forget YAHUWSHUWA says in the Bible that on judgement day he will know you not and to get away from him. Maybe then you will see Cardinal Pell flying over a rainbow on a flying donkey with plenty of somali ovations in the background.
@@nicktronson2977 Sounds like you have "owns" disease.
A cartoon character created to satisfy the yearnings of the 8th century Arabia! Tale by moonlight becomes the Qur'an of today!
Odon is our Prophet.
Master what tremendous wisdom
Can't wait for the English version of Odon's book The Great Secret of Islam to be finished!
Some people just cannot wait to part with good money for bad rubbish.
@@sidprice6214 And some people just cannot deal with the possibility of new explanations ;-)
What is or are this/these alleged pre-Islamic text(s)? Do we have them, or are they presumed?
Are they meant to have emerged from Arabia, or elsewhere?
What does this theory suppose that the Arab armies believed when they first burst out of Arabia?
From Syria mostly, I think. But I'm no expert.
Wives of Marwan 1,
ʿĀʾisha bint Muʿāwiya ibn al-Mughīra
Laylā bint Zabbān
Qutayya bint Bishr
Umm Abān bint ʿUthmān ibn ʿAffān
Zaynab bint ʿUmar al-Makhzumīyya
Umm Hāshim Fākhita
Conversations with Dr Jay, often leads you to question the basics.
Are there any good studies of Umayyad sources from the early eighth Century through the early eleventh? Supposedly there would be marked differences from the Abbasid narrative, but I have never read anything about it. Supposedly the Almoravids who succeeded them were orthodox Maliki Sunnis, although curiously the rulers of the Taifas which survived the breakdown of the Caliphate of Cordoba were declared as "heterodox" by jurists in the Mashriq, justifying their conquest by the Almoravids.
Or did the Almoravids (and the Almohads which followed them) destroy most of the Umayyad texts? That would support a position of them having something to hide...
That is the big question. We don’t really know what the Umayyads in Cordoba believed, some of their structures still exist, but of their religious doctrines? I don’t ever hear anyone going in depth about it.
@@Thor-Orion One supposes that when the Almoravids and the Almohads came in starting from the late 11th Century, they must have adjusted all documents they could lay hands on to be adjusted to the Abbasid narrative, which one supposes they followed. But it's unlikely that such censorship was absolutely successful; there must be documents to be found, if the Arabist establishment in Spain and Portugal can be bothered to document it...
I look forward to any Islamic scholar to refute these claims.
I think the destruction of historical evidences surrounding the place and the era should also be looked into as well which could be an attempt to erase the actual historical facts and give credence to the standard islamic narrative.
Also the destruction of sources & manuscripts
This episode was a dagger in the heart of Islamic history.
So Jay First l saw you did a video with Mel and Bala where you stated that it's the Umayyads that started Islam. So how Could the Abassids Start Islam if they were after the Umayyads?
The making of islam is a process that started way before the 7th cent. with Christian and Jewish apocalyptic expectations.
The Umayyads played an important part: they unified the various Arab factions (most of them, apart from the Alids and the future Abbasid coalition), they invented the idea of the "divine kingdom", they put Jesus away as the ruler of this kingdom and ruled as "caliphs" in its stead, they dechristianized and dejudaized those apocalyptic expectations.
@@OdonLafontaine I believe the group of Arabs that make up the Umayyads are different from the group of Arabs that make up the Abassids. The Abassids had a leaning from Yemen who had assistance from Persians and Central Asians. The Abassids had religious leanings vastly different from the Umayyads. There may be individuals who were part of both groups when they changed allegiance but the majority of the Abassids are a different group of Arabs.
How does Santa visit the house of every child in the world, year after year? Answer me that.
This is brilliant, I'm looking forward to when why they moved to Mecca, how it became liveable, as it was a desert.
The Caliphs never moved to Mecca.
One does not need to move to Mecca when one has a supersonic flying donkey and an abundance of unintelligent people willing to drool on every word from Odin and Jay.
@@sidprice6214 So Sid the Snake, why the anti Odon and Jay comment?
@@fantasia55 They as in people
@@simonhengle8316 why the anti Sid? Whats with the snake?. Have i ever lied to you ?
Odin tells lies and he does so unashamedly. i once confronted him with his comments and when he could no longer bullshit he admitted his lies and said that it was his right to do so because he lived in a free country. I accept that he has the right to say what he wants but he has no right to deliberately lie and mislead people.
As for Jay - he makes so many mistakes and knowingly misrepresents facts that i would not know where to start.
Strange enough that I had reached the same conclusion after 4 decades of research on a Islam and I made several videos on the topic in Bengali recently !!
Realy - 40 years of research? What were you reading - the Dandy and the Beano or was it Archie comics?
@@sidprice6214
He don't know about those comics 😂
@@aaabrams1889 I figured as much. I reckon he has been studying whatever comics he has in his country for the past 40 years rather than doing any serious research into Islam.
@@sidprice6214 , Can you explain the "serious research" Mr Smarty pants 👖
@@sidprice6214 I don't know how old you are, but just as a reminder: if you weren't in communication with foreign universities and could possibly maintain contacts by phone or fax, you could only buy books, magazines, visit public libraries or university libraries and so on to collect one's knowledge. This made studying and finding connections much more difficult and time-consuming.
And exchanging different ideas was not easy.
It was not until the end of the 20th / beginning of the 21st century that Internet use and search engines, social media and thus also the establishment of contact with others really took off.
Thanks to Jay and Odon for bringing this out. Please can muslims challenge this
The Muhammad we know of today was created by the Abbasid in the 8th and 9th centuries, and then redacted back on to the 7th century.
John of Damascus who, wrote heresy of the Ishmaelites, and lived in n Damascus born c. 675 or 676; and dead 4 December 749 before the establishment of the Abbasid say you are making fallacy for the sake of fallacy.
Their is a Book avaliable on John of Damascus and his works.
Incredible. A whole religion fabricated on sand and a legend which is why the SWORD is essential to "convince" both victims and followers to follow the SIN.
If muslims cannot pray before a tomb, why the muslims pray at the tomb of abraham which is in Hebron
The idea that caliphs ruled by divine right, I guess as chosen agents of an all-powerful God who would supposedly put on the throne whom He wanted, may originally have seemed humble, even deferential toward God; but this can easily change to the idea that whatever I want or do must therefor be “God’s will”. If there were a succession of caliphs declaring themselves “Muhammad”, stories of them (including military campaigns, other exploits and maybe associated personnel) may have circulated or been recorded, later to be considered and/or assembled (together with earlier references) as the story of a single “Muhammad” who owes much of ‘his’ origins to these caliphs. (Independent records and other historic data might exist for some caliphal activities that eventually became incorporated into the Sira.) Later caliphs might then, even unknowingly, authorise their behaviour by pointing to that of the composite “Muhammad” thus created.
Odon has a cool accent !
But I hear some people say that there are descendants of Muhammad still in existence. What about them. Just curious.
descended from a fictional character?
This book is gonna be a HUGE best seller!
What is a prophet?
I need to light up a cigar too
A powerful indictment of the origins and development of a religion that lacks contemporary confirmation.
It appears as though the early days were much more political than spiritual, something that can also be attributed to the Byzantine and Catholic "empires" which were clearly made by men and not God.
God gave His Son and the testimony of scriptures (the Bible).
Men mostly made a mess of it.
*indictment
@@areez22 Thx... 👍
@@eswn1816 :)
You don’t force the Truth upon people at the tip of a sword. You can present the Truth and they can choose to accept or not accept it. You only need to force conversions at the tip of a sword if you’re enforcing man made orthodoxy.
The Arabs developed Islam in order to compete with the Christian Roman empire (based in Constantinople).
The Arian Goths were doing a similar thing in the Latin West with what would evolve into medieval Catholicism (the Filioque, Papal supremacy, unleavened bread, etc), which in turn evolved into modern Protestantism (Biblicism, anti-ecclesia, anti-sacramentalism, etc).
Both the West and East had been conquered by hostile and heretical barbarians by the 7th century (beginning in the 5th) that were there to stay, and both Goths and Arabs were competing with the Roman empire to inherit its glory.
It is interesting that the three barbarian tribes that eventually ripped apart and devoured the Christian Roman empire came from desert areas, where the demons withdrew to, and all had Jewish kingdoms in their midst:
1. The Jutes of Jutland in the region of the Goths, who conquered Rome and the Latin West.
2. The Himyarites in the region of the Arabs, who conquered Antioch and Alexandria and the East.
3. The Khazars in the region of the Turks, who conquered Constantinople and the centre of the Roman world.
All these barbarians denied the Holy Trinity, and made war against the Church.
We are living in a post-Christian world that is the spiritual offspring of these enemies of Christ and his Church.
You should go back to the Christian Faith that existed before the Goths, the Arabs and the Turks, that the devil has tried so hard (and failed) to destroy.
Not only did the barbarians rage against Orthodox Christianity, but even Christian Roman emperors abandoned the Faith and promoted various heresies at various times.
Everything has tested the Church, both within and without the Roman empire.
You should go back to the Faith the devil has tried to destroy and hide from the world.
The goths converted to catholicism in Spain.
But the Vandals converted to Islam and they formed the "army of Tareq Ibn Ziyad". It was not an arabic conquest if not a "vandal arrian invasion of South Spain".
@@lainfamia8949 The Filioque heresy was an Arian doctrine that entered the West through the Arians.
The Arians believed the Spirit was a force that existed through the Son because it was created. See the Life of Ulfilas.
This doctrine was defeated at the 2nd Ecumenical Council, but entered the West through the Goths, and found its way through Interpolations into various Latin texts. I have seen such interpolated manuscripts for myself.
The Filioque was made official in Rome only in 1014 at the behest of the Gothic king Henry. This was calculated by him to undermine the Roman empire in Italy, and to extend his domain.
Catholicism opposed Arianism.
@@Josdamale Arians believed Jesus was not God, which is the opposite of what Catholics believe.
@@fantasia55 Airianism also believed that the Spirit exists through the Son, because all things that were made exist through the Son (Gospel St John 1).
This is why the Second Ecumenical Council specifically states that the Spirit exists directly of the Father.
The influence of the Arians is what caused the Filioque to gain traction in the Gothic West. The Arians conquered the West in the 5th century and became competitors for the Roman empire for control of the West over the next 600 years, until Rome adopted the Filioque in 1014.
Rome had resisted the Filioque, and only under pressure from the Gothic King Henry in 1014 officially accepted it.
The Filioque is a semi-Arian heresy.
All things that exist through the Son are by necessity created. This is the definition of a creature.
The Holy Spirit in Orthodoxy exists directly of the Father without a medium, just as the Son exists directly of the Father without a medium.
The corruption of manuscripts and the invention of history is something the Gothic West took to with alacrity.
Remember they also officially proclaimed the Donation of Constantine and the false decretals of Isirdore. It is all built on lies.
How did Shia split from soona...?
Everything you say makes sense however why did the Ummayids in Spain not challenge the Abbasdid’s Islam and say Abdulmalik was Mohammad?
They were beaten and wiped from the history books. Going into exile and keeping Your mouth shut is a price anyone would pay to stay alive.
@@canonjean-mignon4985 sorry I don’t buy that
@@potkinazarmehr so You think the authenticity of Muhammed mattered to the Ummayyad Royals? Don’t be naive. Authorities use religion as a tool. They know it’s fake. If You’re a king and sincerely worry about god and the true faith, You’re nothing short of being ridiculous.
Didn't Abd ar Rahman I, the Ummayyad who fled to Spain in 755, ruled as "successor of Muhammad"?
Think about it: the "caliphate" (God's kingdom on earth) of the "Muhammad" (and his successors) had been taken by others, the Abbasids. Didn't it make those new caliphs the new "Muhammads"?
Anyway, I think that the spanish emirates gradually accepted the Abbasids religious innovations. Why would they oppose ?
@@OdonLafontaine there were multiple caliphs reigning (and competing) at the same time. Zubair is one who had Marwan in opposition. Parallel to the Cordoba kingdom, there was a Fatimid caliph in Egypt, one in baghdad and one who was Turkic.
Kingdom of heaven on earth and such are new meanings, originally halafa simply means follower or successor. Ancient terms aren’t as differentiated as modern languages. A halafa was a representative, apprentice or deputy. He came after.
A salafa is someone that comes before: a president, master, author or creator. The Seleucid empire is an example. It was about refocusing on Hellenistic roots, therefore salafi and seleucid is the same word.
0:30 684-685 AD *Bishapur coin* : Muhammad rasul Allah. 100 years before the Abbasids.
please take a look on umayyad spain surviving documents, coins, etc
1:00 I recall here I consider that Muhammad is an abstract figure that has never existed .
jay, I really am thankful for all the videos but i think it is really time for a proper scholarly approach to this wealth of information gathered by you, Odon, Al Fadi, Mel, Murad, AP, Thomas etc..as i understand there are some differences in the approaches, classic revisionist, more-'extreme'-revisionist, apologetic etc..I miss original sources like photos of inscriptions of Mohammed I ( Jesus), the first trade routes cards, archeological etc. I would love to have a proper book with scans of original sources, newest findings etc..thanks .Jesus is our lord.
Thanks for the show.
Perhaps Islam was invented however, could this apply to other religions as well?
It does apply in many ways.
Of course, they are the mythologies of tomorrow.
Nail smashed hard on the head 👍🏻
Yes, Exactly. There is NOTHING supernatural in our existence. Period. Full stop.
It definitely applies to Christianity too, look up the Caesar’s messiah
4:30 Henri Lammens is Belgian, not French.
Perfectly Preserved lies and terror
Wow, how to fit Muhammad characters into the constraints of history, location, time, Jewish and Aramaic traditions, Christianity, and local culture into a hodge podge thing called Quran? It’s no wonder it takes hundreds of years to “codify” it.
Saint Nicolaas existed 400-450 years before Mecca.
At some point the name “Muhammad” came to be understood in Arabic as derived from the “passive participle of the Arabic verb ḥammada (حَمَّدَ), praise, which comes from the triconsonantal root Ḥ-M-D. The word can therefore be translated as ‘praised, commendable, laudable, praiseworthy or glorified’” (~ thank you, Quora user, Mahmoud Hegazy), taking it from the original Hebraic messianic meaning. Might this change in meaning, if occurring during the evolution of early Islam, historically connect with change in the perception/understanding of who/what Muhammad was?
Historically, the original meaning of HMD in Arabic was not "praise" but "desire"
The invention of the "praise" meaning has to do with the "ahmad" interpolation in 61,6, in order to make it fit with the Greek gospel of John (the announcement of the "parakletos", changed into "periklutos" by the islamic scholars)
@@OdonLafontaine Thank you, Odon
Is there a record of any caliph marrying his daughter in law?
I still don’t understand why people in the time of the Abbasids would believe a religion created by the State? Does Jay have a video on that? It seems odd that people would accept a religion created by the state
The Abbasid dynasty was the state.
From Abbasid perspective they have chosen the right place for their fictional character Mohammad, Mecca in middle of desert which didn't existed before and which had no history. Fictional character in a fictional place.
If u don't understand don't mislead the people please correct the 1000 of the Bible
Have you actually read the Bible? I did read a widely accepted English translation of the Koran, and I can tell you that if you haven’t, you cannot really comment. Those biblical stories in the Koran? They are garbled condensations, just a bunch of retelling, just like when a priest gives the Sermon. So, I believe that these people are on the right path.
It does hurt to realise that something you thought was divine has been created by men. The Christians and the Jews have had to come to terms with it, so there is hope. It just means that you have to find a way to worship God after jettisoning all the bad bits, like executing apostates. And recognising that your holy book, is just like all the other holy books, written by men.
Abbasids......... The father of Islam
People who say wrong things about the Quran and the prophet will burn in hell do not mislead the people url are doing this cause most people are coming to Islam
LOL, hellfire.
I don't believe that islam is fake but i believe that islam was altered by multiple caliphs and scholars
If you want to rewrite history, you must take the key dates, and create the fiction around those key dates. In the UK, 1066 is deeply significant historically, like in the USA the date of 1776 is deeply significant historically. Thus, you need to use those dates in your new narrative.
Thus, all of the dates in life of Muhammad will have historical correspondence, and significance. Just like the symbol of Islam has deep significance. It just has been twisted and corrupted, to fit a new narrative. It might be the key battle that had the astrological/astronomical portent, and also the Zoroastrian fire and brazier symbol. They got merged together into a dual meaning. Then, later caliphs and clerics altered the meaning.
Remember... if you control the past, you can manipulate destiny and reality. It is why Dictators love to rewrite the history books.
I think the idea that Thomas presented recently about the deportation of peoples from the Greco-Roman Empire by the Sassanids (to areas in the land once known as Khorasan) might help to explain how confusion happened.
Many years ago I was watching a video - I cannot remember what now - but they were talking to a Jew whose family emigrated from Russia. He said that when he was a child and they were still in Russia, they celebrated the Passover every year. Without a text to put context into what they were doing, he explained that he followed the rituals simply because his parents were doing it but without understanding (I cannot recall if his parents understood the context either).
Let us suppose that something similar happened. A host of people get deported. As part of their subjugation, religious knowledge gets banned. So "the people who know" have to record all the bits of religious knowledge-polemics that they heard and to write it down. But they cannot use Aramaic or even the plain dotted Arabic because if the authorities find it, then trouble will ensue. This is why an undotted Arabic-Aramaic script is used to make the written notes unreadable except to "those in the know." It will be passed off as some old bit of manuscript of bible stories/midrash of which there must be tons hiding out all over the place. And why names and places have to be changed i.e. Jesus to Isa(ac) to make it even more unrecognizable.
For a while, this is all they have. And inevitably, the context gets lost. They forget that Obey Allah and His Messenger = Obey Allah and His Messenger Jesus (Exodus 23:20-21). These become two different people in their minds. And then eventually, the people in this group meets up with Christians and Jews who have the text in hand. Confusion erupts. Abassids later have to filter out an amalgam of correct and incorrect information. And rivalry between East & West just isn't going to help. Anything to show that western ideology is wrong will be favoured over simply trying to discover the truth one way or the other. Further, the different writing styles reflects that we may have at least two authors so who knows what the heck was going on (in terms of context) when that was happening.
This is only a very rough idea that needs more fleshing out. But SOMETHING must have happened in-between the verse composition when the people knew who "Allah's Messenger" was and when they did not.
In southern India,the state of Kerala hosts one of the earliest mosque in Islam called the CHERAMAM PERUMAL JUMMA MASJID.It is said that it was built during the prophets lifetime!! How authentic is that claim??
It is same story like nassara of kerala.
Not sure of origen only per say
@@urbandsouza7279 What is Nassara of Kerala
There is an excellent series answering this question on Cira International: ruclips.net/video/T3mjkHewtFk/видео.html
In Search Of A Place Called Mecca. The Cheramam Mosque does come up.
The reasoning is that the Qiblas of the mosque do not point to Mecca right upto the 9th Century, it points to Petra, intermediately points to a place between Mecca and Petra and only post 9th Century do the Qiblas begin to consistently point to Mecca.
@@LetGodbeGlorified Nassara Christians (Nasrani Christians) from the state of Kerala, India. Today this identity has petered out with the advent of the Portuguese and British (Roman Catholic and Anglican establishments) into Kerala since the 15th Century. You can find more details by searching for Saint Thomas Christians India. The Roman Catholic position is that St.Thomas (apostle of Christ) did not come to India, as there has been tension between the RC and Orthodox factions....though this is less pronounced since the British left.
@@LetGodbeGlorified I did a video with Jay on this topic. Look for it on his channel, "who are the Indian Nasranis?"
Jesus came from ‘Arabia ‘ : that geographic region was not known by that name at that time, of course.
Since "khalifa" (caliph) means "vicar, successor or deputy" who were the first caliphs successors of (while the Koran & its Prophet were being thought up)? They might've wanted to imply "vicar of Allah-God Himself", but since this would've clashed with their own doctrine of the total transcendence of the Deity, they might've had to bring the source of their legitimacy down closer to earth, to a human figure, Muhammad, to whom they could then conveniently antedate all their lusts and vendettas
The first Arab ruler to have borne the "caliph" title was Abd al Malik, as shown on his coins for example.
Whereas we have absolutely no trace, no source to establish that the other Arab rulers before him had borne the "caliph" title.
As for Abd al Mailk, he claimed to be "caliph of God". See my videos on coins on this channel.
@@OdonLafontaine
YOU'RE A LIAR!
The First Caliph was Abu Bakr and the coins came afterwards - Rashidun, or “rightly guided,” caliphs and they controlled a vast empire and there are tons of references and proves.
Abd al Malik was the sixth Umayyad caliph, ruling from October 705 until his death in 23 February 715.
@@aaabrams1889 prove it with 7th cent material
PS : Abd al Malik did not rule "from October 705 until his death in 23 February 715" as you wrote it. That was his son, al Walid
@@OdonLafontaine
Abu Bakr (b. 573-d. 634) was born in Mecca. His father was Uthman, also known as Abu Quhafah, and his mother, Salma, was known as Umm al-Khayr (“mother of goodness”). Three years younger than Muhammad, Abu Bakr was the closest friend of the Prophet of Islam.
The closest companion of the Prophet Mohammad (saw) and the first caliph.
There have been significant strides made in the interpretation of early Islam by Western-trained scholars that are reflected in the titles that follow. This listing is far from comprehensive, but it represents a cross-section of works that have more than a passing reference to Abu Bakr. Madelung 1997 is one of the first Western reassessments of early Islam that includes useful analysis of primary and secondary sources on Abu Bakr. Ayoub 2003 is an important work detailing the early history of Islam.
El-Hibri 2010 is a similarly scholarly look at early Islam. Written by a well respected scholar, Donner 2010 is presented as a popular work yet provides a novel account of the origins of Islam.
Similarly, Renard 2009 is a chapter in an edited volume of various hagiographies of Muslim figures that offers translation and commentary on Abu Bakr from a variety of Islamic sources. Aqqad 1960 is slightly different from the Western-oriented studies in this section. This work is one in the “geniuses” authored by Aqqad, a famous 20th-century Egyptian scholar; other books in the series are Abqarīiyat Muhammad, Abqarīyat al-Masīh, and Abqarīyat Khalīd. The book is usefully compared with Haykal 1988 (cited under Academic Biographies) and other Academic Biographies.
Unbiased video: ruclips.net/video/no5RCHRbknk/видео.html
@@aaabrams1889 Obi-Wan Kenobi was born on Stewjon[3] in 57 BBY.[2] A Force-sensitive individual, he was taken to the Jedi Temple on Coruscant to be trained as a Jedi[1] at the age of three,[16] an unusually late age since younglings were typically identified within six months of their birth.[17] At some point before he was selected as a Padawan, Kenobi attended a class centered around meditation.[18]
When Kenobi was a youngling, he underwent training with Grand Master Yoda[10] before being assigned as Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn's Padawan learner.[16] Qui-Gon taught him there was "a strength and nobility in restraint."[19] Sometime after being assigned to Jinn, Kenobi and his master engaged in a lightsaber training session, where Jinn congratulated his apprentice for his skills.[18] At some point during his time as a Padawan, Kenobi and Jinn, visited a fortress on the planet Lah'mu.[16] It was Qui-Gon that told Kenobi that he should learn how to swim.[16]
During his Padawan years, Kenobi and Jinn spent a year on the planet Mandalore protecting Duchess Satine Kryze from insurgents who were threatening her world. Bounty hunters were sent after them, forcing them to live as fugitives, never knowing what the next day would bring them. During that time, they had an incident with a swarm of venom-mites on Draboon, where Kenobi carried Kryze to safety, only to fall and drop the Duchess, who then acquired a scar. Obi-Wan fell in love with Satine during his stay on Mandalore, but despite his feelings toward her, he continued with his training and was reassigned. Kenobi regretted leaving her, but ultimately followed the Jedi Code he had sworn to live by.[20]
In 40 BBY, Kenobi and Jinn were sent to Teth to investigate the disappearance of agricultural shipments through the Triellus trade route. They ran into difficulties and had to make an escape, so Jinn sent Kenobi to find a ship. He was briefly held hostage by Wanbo the Hutt's majordomo, Thurible, but was soon released in exchange for Wanbo, who had been captured by Jinn.[16]
In 40 BBY,[21] when Kenobi was seventeen years old, a political dispute erupted on the Inner Rim planet Pijal. A performance troupe called the Opposition had begun playing political pranks to protest the signing of a treaty that would end the absolutist monarchy on Pijal and give more power to Czerka Corporation. They were thought to be making increasingly violent attacks nearing the treaty's signing, compared to their past actions. Rael Averross requested the assistance of Kenobi and his Master Qui-Gon Jinn to bring an end to the dispute. Kenobi and his Master discovered that Crown Princess Fanry had been building a military group called the blackguards, who were framing the Opposition in order to restore the full monarchy.[16]
The Jedi Order sent Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to the planet Bri'n to resolve a conflict. On Bri'n, the leader of the Metal Clan attempted to capture priestess Th'er so that either her word or her blood could be used to destroy her trees. Surrounded by forces of the Metal Clan, Jinn chose to escape with Th'er in an Eta-class shuttle and return to Coruscant. Obi-Wan only watched, without interjection, as Th'er attempted to convince Qui-Gon to intervene in her conflict.[22]
At some point prior to 32 BBY, Jinn and Kenobi were operating in the vicinity of a planet that served as a base of the Flesh Mongers pirate group, flying a pair of Delta-7 Aethersprite-class light interceptors. The two received a message from the surface of the planet from Jedi Master Yoda, who was asking for assistance. Landing on the planet, Jinn and Kenobi discovered that Yoda had taken out the entire pirate gang in order to rescue a young Force-sensitive child, known as Lo, as the pirate had planned to sell him due to his abilities in the Force.[23]
By the time Jinn considered Kenobi to be ready for his trials, they were sent by Supreme Chancellor Finis Valorum to negotiate with the Trade Federation, who had set up a blockade around the planet of Naboo. However, negotiations did not take place as Viceroy Nute Gunray instead sent B1 battle droids and droidekas to kill the two Jedi, but they escaped to Naboo's surface by stowing away on separate landing craft.
On Naboo, Kenobi found Jinn in the company of Gungan Jar Jar Binks, who reluctantly led the two Jedi to Otoh Gunga, where they met with the Gungan leader Boss Nass. Though unable to convince the Gungans to help the humans of Naboo, Jinn influenced Nass to give them transport to allow them to reach Theed. Piloting the transport through the planet's core, Kenobi, Jinn, and Binks reached Theed only to discover that the Trade Federation had already taken control of the city. After rescuing Queen Amidala and several others, the Jedi took Amidala off of Naboo in her starship in an attempt to reach Coruscant with news of the invasion. During the escape, the ship's hyperdrive was damaged, which prevented them from going straight to Coruscant and forced them to land on Tatooine for repairs.[12]
Kenobi meets Anakin Skywalker.
After landing, Kenobi stayed behind on the ship, while Jinn, Amidala (disguised as a handmaiden), Binks and R2-D2 went to look for a new hyperdrive unit. While looking for it, Jinn discovered Anakin Skywalker, from whom he retrieved a blood sample and had the data sent to Kenobi on the ship. The Padawan, then, found that the boy's midi-chlorian count was the highest of any Jedi. When Jinn arrived, accompanied by Skywalker, Darth Maul's attack prompted them to escape to Coruscant at once.[12]
Upon their arrival on the planet, Jinn and Kenobi went directly to the Jedi Council to report on the mysterious attacker, whom Jinn believed to be a Sith Lord. After being briefed on what to do about their mysterious attacker, Jinn discussed about Skywalker with the Council, believing him to be the Chosen One. Nevertheless, the Council was determined that the boy not be trained. However, Jinn persevered, telling them that he would take the boy as his Padawan, despite the Jedi Code's restrictions, but Kenobi insisted he was ready to take the trials, and his master agreed. Instead of discussing the matter further, Mace Windu sent the pair back to Naboo to protect the Queen and also as an attempt to lure out the mysterious assailant.[12]
Obi-Wan Kenobi fighting Darth Maul after his Master was impaled.
After returning to Naboo, Binks located the Gungans and Amidala, revealing herself to be the true Queen, begged Boss Nass to provide assistance in fighting the droid armies of the Trade Federation. Boss Nass agreed to fight the droids as a diversion, while the Queen's forces slipped into Theed and captured Gunray. However, they soon encountered Maul once again and engaged in a duel with him, biding time for Amidala and her forces to reach the throne room. During the duel with Maul, Kenobi was separated from his master and forced to watch as Maul impaled Jinn with his double-bladed lightsaber so, when the opportunity arose, Kenobi retaliated in rage against the Sith. However, the Dathomirian Zabrak gained the upper hand, knocking Kenobi into a nearby shaft where he was just barely able to grab onto a knob jutting out from the side before falling to his death. Maul used this opportunity to kick his lightsaber into the shaft. Despite his predicament, Kenobi was able to use his master's lightsaber to cut the Sith in half, whose body fell down the shaft, presumably dead. Kenobi then ran to his master's side and promised a dying Jinn that he would train Skywalker.[12]
Etc, etc.
Verse 41,26 say people who disbleave say do not listen to the Quran get ur facks right do not mislead the people
History tells us that rulers legitimized their rule by claiming decent or relationship, or authority from the Gods. We see this throughout every religion in Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greeks, Romans, Judaism, Zoroastrian, Christianity, Hindu, Buddhism… and the list goes on. The Ummayds (descendents of the Arab Ghassanids - the Byzantines client state) created the birth of Islam, but it was not called Islam, it was a version of Arab/Aramaic Christianity that differed with Roman/Byzantines Christianity. The Ummayds dealt with religious conflicts throughout their rule after they kicked out the Byzantines from the Middle East, until Abd Almalik put his foot down and claimed himself as the legitimate political and religious leader/ caliphate(similar to the Roman Christianity pope) to this non trinitarian version of Christianity, he became the earthly representative of Rasul Allah (God’s messenger - Christ or Mohammad ), similar to the Roman Catholic pope. Although the regional power foes of the Abbasids ( the decedents of Arab Lakhamids - the Sassanians client state) who were mostly heretic orthodox Christians of Manichaeans influence. These Abbasids crushed the Ummayds and in order to legitimize their power grip and rule, they had to claim to be related to Rasul Allah, but this Rasul Allah was changed to be a new Character, a human being from the Arabian Desert, descendent of Abraham through Ishmael, and the stories (Hadiths) about this Arabian prophet spun out with madness by an central Asiatic writers to suit the narrative flavors of their days. Nothing has changed since the time of Abbasids, then Fatimids, when it comes to the Muslim rulers legitimacy by being descendants of the Fictional Arab prophet, where many Arab rulers until today like the Hashemites of Jordan, the Ahmadi, the Sayyids of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Iran, the Moroccan royals and many Arab leaders like Yasser Arafat and so on still sell their people the same religious narcotics.
Thank you Jay and Odon for this information. Thank you Odon for the information about the Jesuit priest and Arabic scholar Henri Lammens. Ibn Warraq (in Wikipedia) said that "a biography of "muhammad" compiled by Lammens was never published by express orders from Rome, as its publication might have embarrassed the Vatican". More intrigue there.
Who was the Quran addressed to? In Sura 27:76 Inna haatha alqur-ana yaqussu ala banee isra-eela akthara allathee hum feehi yakhtalifoona : "Surely this Quran narrates upon the Children of Israel most of that in which they differ."
Not only does the Quran say it clears up differences among the Israelites but it also directs itself at the Israelites. (ala banee isra-eela or upon the Children of Israel).
Please also note that in the Quran there is no connection between the Jews (addressed as the 'yahood' or 'hoodan') and the Bani Israel. The two are different. Also yahood literally means 'the guided ones' and not the Jewish race.
Please note that in the Quran both the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel) were taught to Jesus. There is no mention that the Torah was taught to Moses. Moses was given a kitab, suhuf (book) but the Torah is never mentioned with Moses.
As Odon has correctly pointed out two important characters ie muhammad and christians (masihi) are absent from the Quran. Instead the Quran addresses the Bani Israel and the yahood.
So what is the exact date / time period of the Quran? Jesus is mentioned so what is the exact time period of the Quranic Jesus? Remember there are no christians (masihi) or "muhammad" in the Quran.
A point about the israk mikraj fairy tale in the hadith. It happened in Mecca latest by 621 AD. This fable is attributed to one narrator only - a person called Malik ibn Sasaa'. Despite this being such an "earth shaking" event only one person Malik ibn Sasaa' narrated this hadith. The famous hadith narrator Malik bin Anas will later narrate this hadith from Malik ibn Sasaa'. At the time of the israk mikrak which happened in Mecca, Malik bin Anas was just a nine year old child in Medina (before the hijra of 622AD). The stranger thing is that throughout the remaining 10 years of his life "muhammad" never mentions this 'earth shaking' event ever again. There are no other hadith from "muhammad" which ever mention the israk mikraj again. It is as if after defeating Hitler the British never spoke about Hitler again.
Yahood doesn‘t mean the „guided ones“. Here’s some etymology 123 for You:
Yaw-Hudi means to see/to know god. This is by definition the teachings of gnosticism. It’s the oldest faith, generally known as esoteric belief today.
@@canonjean-mignon4985 in arabic huda means guidance. Hoodan, yahood refers those who are guided. Hadi means a guide. Similar with mahdi. Root word is H-D.
@@albm706 maybe so, but it’s hebraic and not arabic. Hudi means to see or to know and Yaw is Yahweh. In latin, it’s vidi as in video. It’s a common phenomenon that meanings change. For example, kuffar and cathar are the same, sometimes it’s used in its original positive sense meaning pure or clean, sometimes it’s negative like Kater in german meaning hangover or ketter in Dutch meaning heretic. You go for the oldest meaning.
K-T-R comes from catheroi in this case and hudi is knowing, which is a form of guidance anyway.
@@albm706 the Book of Daniel, around 600 bc. This is when the term Yawhudi came to be. These people lived in Babylon under Nebukadnezar and built a golden statue for him. They refused worshipping it since they had built it themselves.
It’s when they exiled, went over the river, did ibra, persian for crossing the water. They hated him since he destroyed the temple in Canaan, enslaved them and took him back to Babylon.
Not an unknown pharao persecuted Moses, these people were being mistreated and they returned when Cyrus gave them their freedom back. That’s why they spent 40 years in the desert.
@@canonjean-mignon4985 wow, this is an atomic bomb. Do you have sources on Kuffar= Cathar? PS: Tu as l'air de quelqu'un de super intéressant. Il faut qu´on discute tous les deux.
Perhaps the Miraj is also an allusion to the memory of the fact Umar (the basis of the historical ruler (post-Meccan) Muhamad) himself had been buried there......?
Or that an Arab leader claimed to have descended from the heavens (as Jesus, who was supposed to come back at the time). Such a claim would grant the Arab leader the messianic powers of Jesus, and would give him legitimacy to establish God's kingdom on earth (as Jesus was expected to do at the time)
Small wonder why a lot of things does not make sense with mohamad and islam.
From muwayiyya now to abasid, you will keep on changing the naratives.
"Crated"? Do you mean "created"?
The Abassids arrived on the scene and had to make the existing reality their own. It makes perfect sense. The MHMD of the Dome of the Rock was transformed by the Abassids into what they wanted to justify their authority. The Miraj was key to this story of justifying Jerusalem as a holy place. Imposing MHMD on any existing verses seems to have been even more problemmatic as the messenger was only mentioned four times by name.
Jerusalem doesn’t need a justification for being a holy place. It’s already the holy place in the abrahamic religions.
Justinian II wanted to recapture Jerusalem after his empire lost it after centuries. Abdulmalik beat Justinian‘s troops, the rest is history.
"perfect stupidity".
holy place for Islam
Never, Never underestimate the devil Satan(Adversary) lt is like Halloween, Where there is a Treat there is a Trick, and the Adversary knows every Trick there Is. He started in the Garden of God and continues his Wiles to Day.
According to Jay Smith is that he believed that there is really ONE ORIGINAL GOSPEL. Since he cannot find it, he assumed that the gospel of John is already that book. But his is only mere assumption. He failed to make any clear evidence to show that his assumption is correct. Hence, he has to show manuscripts in Aramaic as evidence for his assumption that the gospel of John is the already real Gospel of Pophet jESUs (pbuh).
By his hasty assumption, he undoubtedly discarded the gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke into useless books which have no more meaning to the whole Christendom, and hence not fit to be used as the basis of the religiosity of the Christians.
Sources (to name a few):
1. Islam vs. Christianity
2. What is the Standard Islamic Narratives?
3. Webinar: Understanding Islam -10-09-23
Which holy spirit is the truth? Orthodox or Catholic or protestant or mormon etc?
You all claim you have the spirit and yet you all go to different directions.
Which holy spirit?
Well good question. How you ask us, when even your god dont know? Muhammad was asked in quran, what is the holy spirit, then muuhmadd aka allah came next week and said: Allah said this: allah gave us little knowledge and its not our problem/business to know...!
So your god aka muhamnad had no answer, how in the world you ask us? Tell me who is the holy spirit... Thank you
Whether you like it or even in the Old testaments Jews are divided. They even had divided into different kingdoms. But one thing is true, the keys of kingdom handed by Jesus is with Peter and his successor.
VODKA - probably why you guys are not allowed to indulge.
You are projecting islamic ideas of God and his ways upon Yahweh. God does not force one, (and so does not send jihadis forth to do that, or make laws to persecute people who reject Him)... although at the end of this Age, Christ will set up his kingdom on earth by overthrowing the Antichrist, the mere word of his command will end that rebellious setup.
The Holy Spirit doesn't force, He guides, all the things promised are entered into through faith. There are amazing benefits, and supernatural gifts and assistances, but God's character differs from that of "the Greatest of Deceivers", He does not enforce these things on believers. If Mohammed was a genuine prophet, you would see the work of the Holy Spirit in his life, but the depictions of him, whether invented or half-true, do not.
Which of the many Islamic sects do you believe in?
Apologists argue that the early Arabs were too divided to agree on a lie. It’s just as appropriate to ask why they would be so divided if the sayings of Muhammad were authentic, because they’re used now to settle disagreements. If it’s the chicken or the egg; the chicken being that the SIN was used to later bring resolution, and the egg being that the resolution was crafted by making the SIN. The egg looks more likely. It’s perfectly reasonable that a new state established on an Arab identity would accept stories that made the Arabs look good, especially since most of the citizens were not familiar with who their new rulers were.
Why Do The Churches n Prayer Halls have Idols n Statues of Jesus Christ n Mother Mary n Even Statues of Infant Jesus. Why Do Christian's Worship the Cross. Is Christianity Idolatry.????🙏🙏🙏
SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH
Who is outside and who is inside ?? ..... ABBASIDS and Umayyads
Jesus is the Savior of all people, although especially believers (Timothy) and believers are a light to the world, ie to those outside! And outside they are in the "dungeon" separated from the fullness of the light of revelation, but on the same path of seeking the hope of salvation (though not in the fullness of consciousness)! Is Jesus only and exclusively or only within the Church ?? So it says: I was in the dungeon !! so with those outside because as a good shepherd he seeks those who have gone astray while leaving those 99 righteous !!
Holy Spirit ?? is he exclusively within the Church ?? For example, Joshua was surprised when some outside the meeting tent received the gift of divination!
Cornelius received a vision to be referred to the Church afterwards. And Jesus told the disciples about the Holy Spirit: You already know him because he dwells "with you" and because he will be "in you" (as a body-temple). We also know that all wisdom is from God, even for those outside (but on their level) That is why James writes: Do not be deceived any more! Every good gift, every perfect gift comes from the Creator of the star in which there is no marriage or change!
We (the Church) have an altar from which the servants of the tent have no right to eat and the servants of the tent are outside the tent (not yet inside). These are those closer as circumcised, for example Muslims who do not (yet) know Jesus fully or Jews to whom the eyes of conversion are to be opened at the very end and whom Jesus did not renounce as some think! The Jews and others are in the dungeon as separated from the light of the fullness of Revelation, but they come out of the dungeon in their own time, and that is why Jesus tells them when he mourns the earthly Jerusalem and describes the punishments. But now it remains closed to your eyes !! which means it will open their eyes at the end.
Abraham is the father of the faith of many circumcised nations and those before circumcision. Moses writes about other nations: Yet you love nations, and all their saints lay at your feet, led by you. The Noakids are marked by primordial monotheism, but each on his own level: Shem is so blessed with Elohim YHVH and Japheth only with Elohim !! later distortions occur and with them the parallelism of monotheists !!
The monotheistic praleism is permitted by God And this is seen in the prophecy of Ishmael appearing in the image of a wild donkey striking wildly and being struck himself and carrying the necessary sense of opposition to civilizations that keep nations from the temptations of a tower of one mind. one-mindedness, against which Ishmael fights as against Dajjal while he himself has the same beam in his eye and temptation and to become Dajjal himself. Without this sense of Order in the world, the world would look much worse. Wild donkeys = zebra seems to depict with its stripes of white and black stripes the state of the wilderness and the relationship of the state within itself of the black abbasid and the white Umayyad. So they keep each other in balance of meaning.
What about the others out there? Paul: for the Gentiles: they prove by deed that what the Law prescribes is inscribed in their hearts. That is why those who are guided by nature to keep the precepts of the Law will judge you who, despite knowing the Law, judge others. And we know that to whom more is given, more is required of him (degree of responsibility)! Jesus gives according to the measure of faith to each as much as he gives. And Jesus says: It is "given" to you to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God and they come to them in parables, ie at their level. And Jesus saves both those outside and those who are not baptized, for example the right thief on the cross who was not baptized and entered Paradise! Theologians therefore know about the cross of desire! And we know how the first Christians (Corinthians) were baptized for their pagan ancestors who did not even know Christ!
Jesus also healed the blind who did not know him immediately but only as a prophet.
We know that there were also mixed marriages of Christians and pagans at that time. Paul says of them, for example: A believing wife consecrates an unbelieving husband and that because of this relationship their children are also holy !! We also know of the souls slaughtered under the altar who are given white garments (baptisms?) In the Hereafter, see Revelation: opening the fifth seal.
It is not clear to me that Christians today have no awareness at all of the condition of those outside although every day at Mass it is clearly read: this is my blood shed for you (the church) and for all people for the remission of sins! To those outside we are light or should be as responsible! Peter’s shadow thus healed those sick by the wayside as he passed and that is the meaning of the church in the world that needs our light.
How then are those out there saved? It is the mystery of Jesus' redemption that saves those outside but who are on the common path of hope and the search for the meaning of salvation! But at the very end of the world it will be clear who is who and then only one thing will be worth it: whoever THEN calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved!
We cannot judge others just because they were born in other environments because no one chose where they would be born! And if we are not their light, then even those who are outside in darkness cannot see the light in us, so we make it difficult for them to be Christians themselves.
Therefore, let us not judge but learn tolerance aware that we are on the common path of the same hope
and it makes sense even though some are lagging behind and that at the very end the Beast will persecute all faiths.
There is nothing supernatural in the world. This is entertaining, but otherwise pointless.
@@lawdon9956 You can't prove it! your sense perception is sense consciousness and human thought is limited: Human reason has no answers in full because it is limited and that is why it asks questions and gets answers from the Omniscience of the creator who created reason. when reason separates itself from all source and cause from its Creator in the imaginary temptation to be itself a god as self-sufficient then it is alienated in its Ehio Ego as an egocentric. how to prove by infinitely limited standards? eg how to measure infinity with a meter? And what would God be like to you and what would he look like? what kind of God can he measure? the only one who gives us the answers is the creator himself. You have only two options, to believe in a god who gives answers through (custom Revelation) or in your limited reason that has only a drop of knowledge in the assessment of ignorance and all human knowledge as a collective is very small.