A lot of nay-sayers and eliteists here. 40+ years ago I was laying out a bolt circle for a PVDF pipe flange on a wet bench drain, and the company owner chastized me for "gold plating" it. At the time I was offended, and thought to myself "geez - he doesn't care at all about quality" In later years, I was the business owner, and found myself on the other side of the same discussion. (fortunately the lesson wasn't lost on me and I explained to my employees WHY, which they did understand) Some work just doesn't justify pulling out the rotary and spending 2 hours on a pipeflange or something similar where "Good enough IS Good enough" (better actually). Once that pipe flange is bolted up, no one will know or care if those bolt holes are a few thou off. The machine will not operate any better, just cost more. They WILL care if the machine comes in over budget and everyone looses money on it. Many farm machines are the same story and are designed with loose tolerances where they can be tolerated for just this reason. I occasionally do repair work for local farmers, and they don't care if it's perfect to the tenth, they need it to work for a reasonable cost and fast as they often are on a hard deadline. It's easy to be a perfectionist when someone else is paying the bills, and you have all the time in the world. This type of setup (and the radius trick in another video) Indeed has a place in industry, and it's a bigger place than most people seem to realize. It seemed to me it was stated up front this is a technique for when it's NOT justified to spend 1/2hr breaking down the mill and setting up the rotary, but an awful lot of people seemed to have missed the point. I think this video describes a better way to do good work "good enough" to make the customer happy and the shop money. That's what it's all about in the end. Scott
Hi Scott, I'm in agreeance with you. Unless the job requires precision then there is no need for it. I like to be a perfectionist from time to time, yet I know there is line drawn with individual customers and their needs as opposed to what I would do for myself or love jobs for family and friends. Though, there are some customers that appreciate the little bit of effort you put in which is reciprocal kindness 99% of the time, you know others just want the bare minimum - get in and get out. The bottom line is, you don't do anymore than you have to...
on board there am part of as they call it downturn in the econemy shop.helper cnc i have 40 + years automatics..manual i know the quick get it to the customer he coming now versus my supervisor straight cnc plastics sits down scetches out on computer goes to mill are how many tool changes he will need print out a program look up spindle speed material corner the owner show him his print all and all 4 hrs or more for a 20 min job
Great tip Dale! This is really helpful for those new to machining, as well as those of us without a DRO, rotary table, etc., and perhaps will help people begin to think outside of the box to find a solution for a task they face. Since there are numerous ways to perform an operation and we all have our own unique perspective, then perhaps someone who was inspired this will come up with an innovation that may benefit us all. So keep up the good work planting seeds of knowledge and inspiration for they shall bear fruit.
Coming to the party late and late in life. Been a wood worker for 40+ years and just bought me a mill and lathe this year so now I am looking online to see how to do some things. Never worked on a mill or lathe before. Love all your videos I have watched to date, but in reading some of the comments below I feel like some of those people need to "change the channel" so to speak. I admire anyone who puts videos out there for others to learn from and especially when they have a professional look to them. With all that said, the other day I saw a video by Mr. Pete222 where he cut a V on the Bridgeport two ways, one with Trigonometry and the other just with Dykem and layout lines. The one with the layout lines was within .002 of the one he did the long way. For me in my shop at home just starting out, .002 in that application is GREAT! Hats off to you and Mr. Pete. Well done, Sir.
im in the same boat as you,been doing carpentry,and welding for 40yeArs,now trying to teach myself a new thing...if you stop learning ,you get bored...cheers to you
As a home shop machinist / part timer there are projects, a lot of projects , that I didn't even start because of time constraints . THANKS ! . This tip opens up another 10 - 20 minutes for a project .
Brilliant video, someone like me who has not the same engineering experience that is extremely helpful. Please keep your videos coming. Geoff Lewis, Wales, UK.
Great educational video... I just finished laying out a 7 hole 5\8 diameter holes pattern on a 2 1\2 inch diameter circle in the method you described for my new 6 inch diameter flywheel on my vertical double acting oscillating steam engine... Really enjoyed the simplicity of doing things old school... Thanks again,Frank
hey dale, thanks for showing us a practical method. I have a mill without a DRO . when I want to make a bolt circle for a part on a larger project, I dont want to get online or replace the vise or make a printout or go get my books. thanks for posting.
I have been a machinist for 40 years and it is always nice to learn something new. I subscribed by the way, didn't want to miss out on other tips and tricks. Even after being a machinist for as long as I have, I find the process fascinating to take a block of material and turn it into something useful. As I read the comments concerning the making of this part, I will agree, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Versatility is always going to get a machinist out of a jam. And if the tolerance for the part isn't that tight then there isn't any reason it can't be done without the rotary table and indexing. Thank you for the video.
I very much seeing methods like this. I have a mill but not a rotary table or a dividing head much less a CNC. I do not do this as a job it is just a hobby and i have many hobbies so money is an object, also skills like this can allow someone to make their own tools. I also do Blacksmithing and make many of my own tools. also it is always handy to have more than one way to accomplish the same task.
Hi Dale Another nice one of those "so that's how it's done" videos. Great simple solution to a complex problem for a rookie Thanks for showing and sharing Keep 'em rolling aRM
Always struggled with bolt patterns. Probably quite basic to machinists but this is magic to self-taught hobby metal carvers. Really enjoy your You Tubes, Dale. Usually learn something new even with those way over my head. Keep up the good work. Bill
Great video. I am going to practice this technique later. I use a scrap piece of brass to knock down and secure my work (~2" in diameter X 3" long) . The brass knocker fits in tighter places than a hammer, and the weight and softness of the brass doesn't seem to damage the work. Thank's for the video.
I'm in the don't have a dividing head or rotary table circle, but have a vice and the same machine tools parallel bars etc, so this is very handy technique. Thank you for sharing Dale :)
I just want to point out to the scoffers, this is a "Tips n Tricks" channel not "advanced aerospace machining". Also, accurate enough, IS accurate enough.
J Plough It may not be aerospace but remember there wasn’t enough time to do it right, but there was time to do it again. Or maybe the young bull old bull parable.
Very nice !!! especially for guys who doesn't have DRO. Looks like many comments here add the way to how calcultate using trigonometry. I feel sorry for them did not understand difference between this trick using no DRO and no trigo : just and ONLY very basic tools. Thanks again for showing this trick as it is very useful for people having NO DRO and NO trigo diploms... Sorry to say : there are nowadays CNC machines that will do this work like 1+1=2... here : this is not the point to using something someone simple might simply not have...uh ??? no CNC ??? no maths ??? no Digital read-out ??? uhhhh ??? Please continue the good work uploading good stuff like that !!!!! LOVELY !!! and USEFUL !!!!
Great method and easy for everyone. Myself being lucky enough to have a DRO I just find the center, input the number of holes and the radius into my DRO bolt circle function and it tells me where to go. I used to have to rely on people for telling me where to go. =(;-) Thanks for sharing.
i grew up on a bridgeport as a tool and die/ plastic moldmaker without using digital readouts. they were just being developed like nc at the time. there are so many ways to accomplish a task, indicators and jo blocks are your best friend. math is the language and patience is the pervayor!
Thanks very much for taking the time to show these time saving tips! I'm a hobby machinist, and I often don't have enough time to spend hours on setting up a rotary table for example. And I don't have a DRO. And I don't need mega precision, so these tricks come in very handy! :)
Did i miss something, i was waiting to learn how to use the math to makeca bolt circle, any one can drill the holes,the part that counts is the math to divide the circles.
You would obviously know how many holes and what dia before starting. The straight line distance ( not curved on circumference) is the segment. To find segment length S S = 2r x Sin (degrees) ---------- 2. Degrees is the angle between two holes, in this case 7 holes. 360/7 = 51.42857143 degrees.
The method of drilling holes in a round block is easy enough, the problems come about when you need an exact tolerance, if you make 2 separate plates then bolt both them together it would be only luck if the holes line up.
Can you then use transfer punch to translate the hole pattern over to the other plate? I know one can, jsut not sure how good the tolerance of that may be.
I usually just cheat by laying it out in a cad program to get the offsets from the center and drill the parts. It only takes a few minutes and you don't have to remove the vise. Of course I have a DRO but it could be done with dials. Keep up the good work, I enjoy your videos.
A friend years ago showed me a trick similar to your machining a circle trick for layout. If he new he would also be having to drill a center hole, he would do so with a hole saw, or comparable sized bit, then just barely kiss the surface with the saw blade itself.
Always enjoy your videos and the bolt circle video is another great example. I worry about you wearing a wedding ring working around metal working machinery. Every Tool & Die shop demanded we have safety glasses on at all times, and no rings or wrist watches on wile working. A finger can be pulled off so quickly and they are hard to put back on tour hand. Keep up the excellent videos. BB
Nice article thanks!. The proof of the pudding would be as follows, (to check accuracy). When setting up to drill, put a bed disc under the flange, (say around 4mm thick), and "tack" the pieces with superglue, and at each hole, drill through both pieces). When all holes are drilled, warm the parts to break the glue bond and then change the relationship between the holes in both pieces, by rotating one piece or the other by one hole. Only if they all match are you on a winner. This is particularly useful when using holes that do not work out to a whole number of degrees and using the setting out method you selected. I've just been through this as I had to make 6 flange plates, and do not have the luxury of a rotating table/chuck arrangement and used a method very similar to yours.
Or use the bolt circle table in Machinery's Handbook. Gives you the XY coordinates for all bolt circles from 3-12 holes based on a 1" circle. Multiply the XY coordinates by your bolt circle and then use your DRO or the graduations on your table. That's the right way. I'd be making holes before you were done with the layout.
Keep your parallels from falling over by putting spring between them, if your springs don't reach from side to side I just add some small blocks. This is great if you are doing multiple parts or are re-positioning parts in the vise. Thanks for the tips and keep making chips.
Indicate or edge find center, then use Zeus book, trig, or an app on your phone I use an app called CNC bolt pattern it gives you the option of a graphic point or manual output ( 1 hole at a time ) angle of rotation etc. as a toolmaker I am often asked to do unusual layouts to fairly tight tolerances, I hope that this helps. Robert
Can you explain how you set the compass to the right distance for marking the holes? I usually just calculate the coordinates of the holes from the center point. Then just crank over to each point and drill (even easier with a DRO). I think some DROs will even do bolt circles calculations for you.
Nice video. I print the circle and the bolt pattern on the printer (regular paper) and lay it over the work with Elmer's white glue. After the project is finished the glue will remove with water. Not high tech but simple and fast.
This is an interesting method. Quick and dirty definitely has it's place in an emergency, but if you are in a machine shop, the least you can do is dial indicate the reference dia ( I. D. , or O. D. ) trig out the X, and Y locations , dial in the hole locations and drill. The consensus is it doesn't really matter, but whoever machined the opposite side of the flange more than likely dialed it in, or drilled with a fixture with drill bushings, so it'll definitely fit and seal better with an accurately drilled flange. In the long run, doing it right takes the same amount of time as doing a "short cut", and you know it'll be right. As I said originally, this short cut has it's place in machining / fabricating, and that is what you are teaching, and teaching well. Even laying it out this way, you still need to figure out the chore between the holes on an evenly spaced bolt pattern, so your halfway to trig-ing out the hole locations anyway. Good video.
Nice tip! LOL, your Dykem brush is crap just like mine?? I hate Dykem just for that reason and can't figure why they don't supply a quality brush, I tried the spray can but that was crap also....do you know of another mfg of a similar product? Sharpies are quick but tend to run with oils, etc.
The point of this method people is to show how you could have done this with a drill press as opposed to using your read out or dials X-Y with trig or hole position pattern in some read out heads. Simple and considering they are " BOLT " holes visual accuracy is fine. This is old school and it works.
I must have completely missed the bit where you actually decided how far apart the holes are. I thought 7 holes would be interesting, as I`ve been doing this sort of thing most of my life; but nothing
Deciding/working out where they should be is one thing, then rotating/drilling the piece by eye is another. The end result can't be 100% accurate surely??
+ Paul J. Agreed. It's a pity Dale omitted to describe how he determined the very important chord length for scribing the centres of the other six holes once he'd centre-popped the first one. Especially since 360° is not exactly divisible by 7 (51.429°) Chord length = [2 × Sin {(360° ÷ 7) ÷ 2} × R = 2 × Sin 25.714° × (D ÷ 2)] = Sin 25.714° × D = 0.43388 × D. So it's also neccessary to know the diameter of the pitch circle, D. Had there been 6 holes, the chord length would be Sin 30° × D = ½ × D (0.5 × D) = R.
Yeah, he conveniently skipped that step by saying, 'hopefully I've already calculated this out in advance'. Waste of a video, as the other stuff is obvious.
I noticed that you have a digital readout. Most of them include a bolt circle feature that makes life easy and simple. That's all I've used for the last 20 years or so. I'm surprised you didn't mention this.
I like it. I will definitely add this to my library of tricks, thanks. What would you give for a true position tolerance with the Datum being ID or OD with this method?
Excellent video, Dale. Have you thought about doing a video that shows others ways to layout, i.e. polar and rectangular coordinates, etc? I think this would be helpful for those of us who do not have a lot of tooling. I really enjoy your videos, especially when you include your errors for us to learn from.
This is similar to the test I had to do for the Drill Press and Layout Section, I had to do for Machinery Repairman (Machinist) School in the Navy. It's a good method to use if your holes have 1/32 or more of clearance. If the print calls for tighter holes than that, I would get out the dividing head or indexer. You might want to show newbies, how you calculate chord length in order to set your calipers?
Actually, indicate in on the center hole and set your table dials at zero.. Then look in your Machinery's Handbook. It has a formula that, If you know the diameter of your bolt circle, will allow you to compute X and Y settings for your mill table for various numbers of holes. If you can multiply and/or divide on a calculator you can do the math. If your lead screws are accurate, it will put your holes on within a thousandth or so.
Lawrence, right on, Great little pocket data pad, use it all the time, one in the house and one in the shop, and cheap, about $15 cdn includes shipping from UK, Edmund.........Alberta
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A lot of nay-sayers and eliteists here.
40+ years ago I was laying out a bolt circle for a PVDF pipe flange on a wet bench drain, and the company owner chastized me for "gold plating" it. At the time I was offended, and thought to myself "geez - he doesn't care at all about quality"
In later years, I was the business owner, and found myself on the other side of the same discussion. (fortunately the lesson wasn't lost on me and I explained to my employees WHY, which they did understand)
Some work just doesn't justify pulling out the rotary and spending 2 hours on a pipeflange or something similar where "Good enough IS Good enough" (better actually).
Once that pipe flange is bolted up, no one will know or care if those bolt holes are a few thou off. The machine will not operate any better, just cost more. They WILL care if the machine comes in over budget and everyone looses money on it. Many farm machines are the same story and are designed with loose tolerances where they can be tolerated for just this reason. I occasionally do repair work for local farmers, and they don't care if it's perfect to the tenth, they need it to work for a reasonable cost and fast as they often are on a hard deadline.
It's easy to be a perfectionist when someone else is paying the bills, and you have all the time in the world. This type of setup (and the radius trick in another video) Indeed has a place in industry, and it's a bigger place than most people seem to realize.
It seemed to me it was stated up front this is a technique for when it's NOT justified to spend 1/2hr breaking down the mill and setting up the rotary, but an awful lot of people seemed to have missed the point.
I think this video describes a better way to do good work "good enough" to make the customer happy and the shop money. That's what it's all about in the end.
Scott
Hi Scott,
I'm in agreeance with you. Unless the job requires precision then there is no need for it. I like to be a perfectionist from time to time, yet I know there is line drawn with individual customers and their needs as opposed to what I would do for myself or love jobs for family and friends. Though, there are some customers that appreciate the little bit of effort you put in which is reciprocal kindness 99% of the time, you know others just want the bare minimum - get in and get out. The bottom line is, you don't do anymore than you have to...
Good 'ole plain common sense, and a really excellent compromise between , cost VS adequacy and client satisfaction.
nifty1940 no one mentions pride in the job....do it once do it right.
on board there am part of as they call it downturn in the econemy shop.helper cnc
i have 40 + years automatics..manual i know the quick get it to the customer he coming now versus my supervisor straight cnc plastics sits down scetches out on computer goes to mill are how many tool changes he will need print out a program look up spindle speed material corner the owner show him his print all and all 4 hrs or more for a 20 min job
Holds true for every trade. I try and show the apprentices when its o.k. to be a wood butcher and when you have to split pencil lines. 🤣😂😁😀😎
Great tip Dale! This is really helpful for those new to machining, as well as those of us without a DRO, rotary table, etc., and perhaps will help people begin to think outside of the box to find a solution for a task they face. Since there are numerous ways to perform an operation and we all have our own unique perspective, then perhaps someone who was inspired this will come up with an innovation that may benefit us all. So keep up the good work planting seeds of knowledge and inspiration for they shall bear fruit.
Thanks for taking the time to write this comment. It is excellent😀😀😀😀😀
Very clever. Might be a well known technique in the wizardly world of machining but to a none member of your club it is magic. Thank you.
Coming to the party late and late in life. Been a wood worker for 40+ years and just bought me a mill and lathe this year so now I am looking online to see how to do some things. Never worked on a mill or lathe before. Love all your videos I have watched to date, but in reading some of the comments below I feel like some of those people need to "change the channel" so to speak. I admire anyone who puts videos out there for others to learn from and especially when they have a professional look to them. With all that said, the other day I saw a video by Mr. Pete222 where he cut a V on the Bridgeport two ways, one with Trigonometry and the other just with Dykem and layout lines. The one with the layout lines was within .002 of the one he did the long way. For me in my shop at home just starting out, .002 in that application is GREAT! Hats off to you and Mr. Pete. Well done, Sir.
im in the same boat as you,been doing carpentry,and welding for 40yeArs,now trying to teach myself a new thing...if you stop learning ,you get bored...cheers to you
As a home shop machinist / part timer there are projects, a lot of projects , that I didn't even start because of time constraints .
THANKS ! . This tip opens up another 10 - 20 minutes for a project .
Man, you honor the flag behind you! It was this ingeniouty that made very good American products in the past, including very precise equipment.
Brilliant video, someone like me who has not the same engineering experience that is extremely helpful. Please keep your videos coming. Geoff Lewis, Wales, UK.
I am more a hobbyist, and like many, do not own the more specialist kit, so these kind of tips are extremely useful. Thank you.
You're very welcome!
First time on your chanel, I'm running a relatively primitive set up, so you've just saved my life 💪🔥
Nice to know for those of us with only a drill press. Thanks Dale.
Hey Dale Excellent video as usual. Gives a great tip, to the point and less than half an hour presentation. Thanks
+Newmachinist
Glad you liked it
Great educational video... I just finished laying out a 7 hole 5\8 diameter holes pattern on a 2 1\2 inch diameter circle in the method you described for my new 6 inch diameter flywheel on my vertical double acting oscillating steam engine... Really enjoyed the simplicity of doing things old school... Thanks again,Frank
Hi Frank. I like your comment. I did it for a friend of mine working on a steam engine for his kids. .
Real good Information thanks Dale for taking the time to show your awesome shortcut good enough is good enough
hey dale, thanks for showing us a practical method. I have a mill without a DRO . when I want to make a bolt circle for a part on a larger project, I dont want to get online or replace the vise or make a printout or go get my books. thanks for posting.
I have been a machinist for 40 years and it is always nice to learn something new. I subscribed by the way, didn't want to miss out on other tips and tricks. Even after being a machinist for as long as I have, I find the process fascinating to take a block of material and turn it into something useful. As I read the comments concerning the making of this part, I will agree, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Versatility is always going to get a machinist out of a jam. And if the tolerance for the part isn't that tight then there isn't any reason it can't be done without the rotary table and indexing. Thank you for the video.
This is amazing, especially for someone who is not a machinist. Thank you.
I very much seeing methods like this. I have a mill but not a rotary table or a dividing head much less a CNC. I do not do this as a job it is just a hobby and i have many hobbies so money is an object, also skills like this can allow someone to make their own tools. I also do Blacksmithing and make many of my own tools. also it is always handy to have more than one way to accomplish the same task.
Great comment :-)
Cheap and easy way to do bolt hose and if you do not have a mill use your press drill love your work.
Hi Dale
Another nice one of those "so that's how it's done" videos.
Great simple solution to a complex problem for a rookie
Thanks for showing and sharing
Keep 'em rolling
aRM
Just found your channel while wondering down the wormhole and this and your radii cutting video hooked me! Thanks for the great information!
Appreciate the use of brains instead of gadgets as I am so prone to do. Thanks.
Thanks Im glad you liked it.
Good video. Thanks for making it easy to follow just like your other videos.
It should be pointed out that this method will work with a drill press, which typically does not have precise XY positioning. Thanks Dale!
Great Point John :-)
My thoughts exactly!
@@StoversMotors Yes this is a very good drill press way to geter done
Always struggled with bolt patterns. Probably quite basic to machinists but this is magic to self-taught hobby metal carvers. Really enjoy your You Tubes, Dale. Usually learn something new even with those way over my head. Keep up the good work.
Bill
I'm glad you find my channel interesting and useful, thanks
great video, really glad you had the BUDWEISER CAN in the video. Great ad
Thanks LOL
Thank you thats a great tip and another clever use of a v block.
great trick! Im not a machinist by any means but I like to learn as much as possible. thanks
Learning is the joy of life
Great video. I am going to practice this technique later. I use a scrap piece of brass to knock down and secure my work (~2" in diameter X 3" long) . The brass knocker fits in tighter places than a hammer, and the weight and softness of the brass doesn't seem to damage the work. Thank's for the video.
I'm in the don't have a dividing head or rotary table circle, but have a vice and the same machine tools parallel bars etc, so this is very handy technique.
Thank you for sharing Dale :)
+David Stevens (davro)
Don't need all the cool machines to get simple things done. Keep up the great comments.
I just want to point out to the scoffers, this is a "Tips n Tricks" channel not "advanced aerospace machining". Also, accurate enough, IS accurate enough.
J Plough you said it amigo, Jude 1:18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.”
n & m Sandberg amen Brother!
VERY NICE ANSWER J PLOUGH !!!! LOVE IT !!!
Unfortunately, this method takes a lot more time to be far less accurate.
J Plough It may not be aerospace but remember there wasn’t enough time to do it right, but there was time to do it again. Or maybe the young bull old bull parable.
Very nice !!! especially for guys who doesn't have DRO. Looks like many comments here add the way to how calcultate using trigonometry.
I feel sorry for them did not understand difference between this trick using no DRO and no trigo : just and ONLY very basic tools.
Thanks again for showing this trick as it is very useful for people having NO DRO and NO trigo diploms...
Sorry to say : there are nowadays CNC machines that will do this work like 1+1=2... here : this is not the point to using something someone simple might simply not have...uh ??? no CNC ??? no maths ??? no Digital read-out ??? uhhhh ???
Please continue the good work uploading good stuff like that !!!!! LOVELY !!! and USEFUL !!!!
COOL !!!
Thanks for sharing and please continue the good job !!!
Great method and easy for everyone. Myself being lucky enough to have a DRO I just find the center, input the number of holes and the radius into my DRO bolt circle function and it tells me where to go. I used to have to rely on people for telling me where to go. =(;-) Thanks for sharing.
DRO's or cheating lol 😀😄
What a nice way to build our future in easy way to make holes
Gotta love the kiss theory.
Simple and efective😉😊👍👍
i grew up on a bridgeport as a tool and die/ plastic moldmaker without using digital readouts. they were just being developed like nc at the time.
there are so many ways to accomplish a task, indicators and jo blocks are your best friend.
math is the language and patience is the pervayor!
Thanks very much for taking the time to show these time saving tips! I'm a hobby machinist, and I often don't have enough time to spend hours on setting up a rotary table for example. And I don't have a DRO. And I don't need mega precision, so these tricks come in very handy! :)
I'm glad you liked it.
Good video Dale, I can use this one on my drill press. You know I'm a fan of the KISS principle and this is really simple.
you are great man. thanks a lot from morocco ♥
great tip Dale thanks for sharing.
Great tips. Thank you for sharing
Very well presented. Thank you
Man This Is a real great idea 👍👍 from México
Love your videos. I learn a lot.
So simple so good. Thanks
Machining can be simple. In some ways machining is easier with less tools.
Great tip Dale, thanks
Thanks
Did i miss something, i was waiting to learn how to use the math to makeca bolt circle, any one can drill the holes,the part that counts is the math to divide the circles.
Circumference divided by number of holes. Advertising major here
@@basik1dotcom But the dividers are chord lengths not arc lengths. Then it all depends how good your eyes are to center drill on the scribed lines.
Divide the number of holes into 360 yerimy
basik1dotcom
Yes.
Elementary my good man.
You would obviously know how many holes and what dia before starting. The straight line distance ( not curved on circumference) is the segment. To find segment length S
S = 2r x Sin (degrees)
----------
2.
Degrees is the angle between two holes, in this case 7 holes. 360/7 = 51.42857143 degrees.
The method of drilling holes in a round block is easy enough, the problems come about when you need an exact tolerance, if you make 2 separate plates then bolt both them together it would be only luck if the holes line up.
Can you then use transfer punch to translate the hole pattern over to the other plate? I know one can, jsut not sure how good the tolerance of that may be.
I was going to ask about setting the dividers, too, but I got the answer in the comments. Luckily, my DRO has a bolt circle feature. :)
Thanks!!
Mike
I usually just cheat by laying it out in a cad program to get the offsets from the center and drill the parts. It only takes a few minutes and you don't have to remove the vise. Of course I have a DRO but it could be done with dials. Keep up the good work, I enjoy your videos.
Thanks again for uploading this.
I never thought of this thanks for the v block lesson
Just saved me $700 on a quality rotary and chuck to perform the same process. Great video.
:-)
Nice tip, thanks for sharing 👍
Great video Dale! Best wishes from Germany
Its tricks like this that make a real difference.
thanks
A friend years ago showed me a trick similar to your machining a circle trick for layout. If he new he would also be having to drill a center hole, he would do so with a hole saw, or comparable sized bit, then just barely kiss the surface with the saw blade itself.
Thanks Dale great Idea
I like the invisible side shields on your safety glasses.
Great video Dale! I'm not sure what anyone had to thumbs down about?! Can't please everyone I guess.
+Dustin Masters
Thanks for your comment it's very appreciated :-)
Hi Dale My First metal lathe grizzly G0602 will be here tomorrow Keep the tips coming
+John R Pannell
I love the smell of a new tool in the the shop. Graduations.
Always enjoy your videos and the bolt circle video is another great example. I worry about you wearing a wedding ring working around metal working machinery. Every Tool & Die shop demanded we have safety glasses on at all times, and no rings or wrist watches on wile working. A finger can be pulled off so quickly and they are hard to put back on tour hand. Keep up the excellent videos. BB
Nice video. I like the collar on the mill! I'm subscribing.
Thanks and welcome to metal tips and tricks
As a novice I enjoyed this video, just a pity about all the soapbox people commenting.
Thanks for taking the time and sharing.
+Captain G
Thanks For your comment and your support
I'm surprised at all the complaining in this comment section; guess some folks just are not happy people...
Nice video with good simple information. Your video title reads "Both" circles.
Was just gonna say the same thing...
That's a great trick, thanks for sharing.
Nice and clean. thanks
Nice article thanks!. The proof of the pudding would be as follows, (to check accuracy). When setting up to drill, put a bed disc under the flange, (say around 4mm thick), and "tack" the pieces with superglue, and at each hole, drill through both pieces). When all holes are drilled, warm the parts to break the glue bond and then change the relationship between the holes in both pieces, by rotating one piece or the other by one hole. Only if they all match are you on a winner. This is particularly useful when using holes that do not work out to a whole number of degrees and using the setting out method you selected. I've just been through this as I had to make 6 flange plates, and do not have the luxury of a rotating table/chuck arrangement and used a method very similar to yours.
Nice quick technique.
Nice demo, Dale.
Thanks and Merry Christmas.
John
+John Bazaar
Thanks John
Or use the bolt circle table in Machinery's Handbook. Gives you the XY coordinates for all bolt circles from 3-12 holes based on a 1" circle. Multiply the XY coordinates by your bolt circle and then use your DRO or the graduations on your table. That's the right way. I'd be making holes before you were done with the layout.
Nice trick...i hope it can save me time some day!!!
Hi Dave, it sure is easy and if your take your time you can be very accurate
Keep your parallels from falling over by putting spring between them, if your springs don't reach from side to side I just add some small blocks. This is great if you are doing multiple parts or are re-positioning parts in the vise.
Thanks for the tips and keep making chips.
+clemenaugh
Great Idea
Indicate or edge find center, then use Zeus book, trig, or an app on your phone I use an app called CNC bolt pattern it gives you the option of a graphic point or manual output ( 1 hole at a time ) angle of rotation etc.
as a toolmaker I am often asked to do unusual layouts to fairly tight tolerances, I hope that this helps.
Robert
Thanks for the tip. Could you also show this done using the DRO?
In the UK we call those calipers odd-leg calipers, it's a little easier to pronounce. Enjoying the videos, reminds me of my apprentice days.
+Lee Turner
I'm Glade you like it
Good one. Thank you for sharing this!
Thanks for watching
read the comments sure are a lot "cat skinners" out there great video keep up the good work
Thank you this idea helps specially countries no dividing heDs/ rotary tables not available plus poor training but this idea helps
Can you explain how you set the compass to the right distance for marking the holes? I usually just calculate the coordinates of the holes from the center point. Then just crank over to each point and drill (even easier with a DRO). I think some DROs will even do bolt circles calculations for you.
Nice video. I print the circle and the bolt pattern on the printer (regular paper) and lay it over the work with Elmer's white glue. After the project is finished the glue will remove with water. Not high tech but simple and fast.
+acklan3
Great idea.
I was gonna suggest that. Nowadays everyone has a computer & printer.
This is an interesting method. Quick and dirty definitely has it's place in an emergency, but if you are in a machine shop, the least you can do is dial indicate the reference dia ( I. D. , or O. D. ) trig out the X, and Y locations , dial in the hole locations and drill.
The consensus is it doesn't really matter, but whoever machined the opposite side of the flange more than likely dialed it in, or drilled with a fixture with drill bushings, so it'll definitely fit and seal better with an accurately drilled flange.
In the long run, doing it right takes the same amount of time as doing a "short cut", and you know it'll be right.
As I said originally, this short cut has it's place in machining / fabricating, and that is what you are teaching, and teaching well.
Even laying it out this way, you still need to figure out the chore between the holes on an evenly spaced bolt pattern, so your halfway to trig-ing out the hole locations anyway.
Good video.
Excellent video, thanks. I also belong to the "bad spellers of the world untie". LOL
+Sonya Shotinthefoot
LOL
Another fine Guessing, almost accurate project by Dale.
Nice tip! LOL, your Dykem brush is crap just like mine?? I hate Dykem just for that reason and can't figure why they don't supply a quality brush, I tried the spray can but that was crap also....do you know of another mfg of a similar product? Sharpies are quick but tend to run with oils, etc.
I don't know of any other product that could replace Dykem. And I don't like sharpies ether. Maybe we need to formulate one of are own.
+Metal Tips and Tricks (Dale Derry) They sell markers that can be re-filled. I wonder if they could be filled with Dykem?
+ArtemiaSalina The German firm Edding make refillable layout markers.
I like ur drilling machine
The point of this method people is to show how you could have done this with a drill press as opposed to using your read out or dials X-Y with trig or hole position pattern in some read out heads. Simple and considering they are " BOLT " holes visual accuracy is fine. This is old school and it works.
Thank you!
Very good tip
Just something I never thought of! One day you need to explain how you get the right calliper setting to mark 7 holes...or 5 or whatever.
Not having a rotary table nor a DRO myself, I like this idea! Thanks for sharing!
Is that a mill or a giraffe? :)
LOL
Elephant.
ShysterLawyer
Carson Lawrence
Yes?
I must have completely missed the bit where you actually decided how far apart the holes are.
I thought 7 holes would be interesting, as I`ve been doing this sort of thing most of my life; but nothing
Deciding/working out where they should be is one thing, then rotating/drilling the piece by eye is another. The end result can't be 100% accurate surely??
As others have pointed out, good enough is not necessarily 100% accurate.
+ Paul J. Agreed. It's a pity Dale omitted to describe how he determined the very important chord length for scribing the centres of the other six holes once he'd centre-popped the first one. Especially since 360° is not exactly divisible by 7 (51.429°) Chord length = [2 × Sin {(360° ÷ 7) ÷ 2} × R = 2 × Sin 25.714° × (D ÷ 2)] = Sin 25.714° × D = 0.43388 × D. So it's also neccessary to know the diameter of the pitch circle, D.
Had there been 6 holes, the chord length would be Sin 30° × D = ½ × D (0.5 × D) = R.
He looked it up either in machinery’s handbook or on his phone.
Yeah, he conveniently skipped that step by saying, 'hopefully I've already calculated this out in advance'. Waste of a video, as the other stuff is obvious.
Perfect idea for rc 👍🏾
Thanks 👍
I noticed that you have a digital readout. Most of them include a bolt circle feature that makes life easy and simple. That's all I've used for the last 20 years or so. I'm surprised you didn't mention this.
I like it. I will definitely add this to my library of tricks, thanks. What would you give for a true position tolerance with the Datum being ID or OD with this method?
Excellent video, Dale. Have you thought about doing a video that shows others ways to layout, i.e. polar and rectangular coordinates, etc? I think this would be helpful for those of us who do not have a lot of tooling. I really enjoy your videos, especially when you include your errors for us to learn from.
I really like some info on cutting a radius on the end of a flat stock using a rotary table with out a DRO. Thanks
what a great tip thanks
+RPWLKR1
Thanks
This is similar to the test I had to do for the Drill Press and Layout Section, I had to do for Machinery Repairman (Machinist) School in the Navy. It's a good method to use if your holes have 1/32 or more of clearance. If the print calls for tighter holes than that, I would get out the dividing head or indexer.
You might want to show newbies, how you calculate chord length in order to set your calipers?
I'll never do this in my life, but I love watching interesting shit
Thanks
Actually, indicate in on the center hole and set your table dials at zero.. Then look in your Machinery's Handbook. It has a formula that, If you know the diameter of your bolt circle, will allow you to compute X and Y settings for your mill table for various numbers of holes. If you can multiply and/or divide on a calculator you can do the math. If your lead screws are accurate, it will put your holes on within a thousandth or so.
and in a zeus handbook it works it out for you so all u do is just multiply,
Lawrence, right on,
Great little pocket data pad, use it all the time, one in the house and one in the shop, and cheap, about $15 cdn includes shipping from UK,
Edmund.........Alberta
Get a Zeus handbook. It has all you need to do bolt hole circles. If you have digital display or even the bog standard dials it works.
Exactly you can even use a dro calculating program online
No shit