2:32:1 states if a runner slides he must slide within reach of base or foot. Then later in the video the rule book states the runner can slide Andy from contact with a fielder, but if he doesn’t he must slide in a straight line into the base. Can you clarify please. Hope you are well and happy in Georgia. My first six games in Northern California have featured sideways snow. I need some Georgia sun and peach pie.
@@UmpireClassroom it’s 2:32:2 that states a runner must slide in a straight line to the base on a force play. This seems to contradict 2::2:1 which states a player must slide within reach of the base with hand or foot. I’m visualizing the N.C.A.A. rule that a runner must slide within the width of the base. Within reach of a hand or foot is very different from direct to the base. I’d this poor wording in the Fed. rule book, or am I missing something.
@@UmpireClassroom question if I may Patrick. Bases loaded no outs. Ground ball to F-4 who throws home for out # 1. R-3 does not slide. R-3 runs through home plate and made slight contact with F-2 at his left shoulder. F-2 fell down and was not able to throw to first base for a second out attempt. F-2 did not do a good job of clearing home plate and was still partially within width of the plate if you are looking at home plate from third base. R-3 ran straight through home plate with no intent to make contact with an elbow. I called nothing. What’s the call Patrick? Thank you sir.
@@UmpireClassroomon case play # 4 R-1 slides illegally. Batter runner is out because of an illegal slide by R-1; not because R-1 ran out of a base path. There is no base path. A base path is created when a play ( a tag) is being made upon a runner. It’s sloppy, and imprecise language.
Great videos all across this channel. Incredibly high-quality content and thumbnails. This should be getting 10x the amount of views - new umpires are slackin'! Just kidding, of course - but keep watching our friend here if you're calling NFHS ball. I had to learn the hard way, and these are all important parts of the game that are fun to go over, even after 25 years of officiating. Fantastic job.
13:30 another question - I thought we also said that the runners can choose whether or not to slide? Or are you saying the contact the he made was considered an attempt for him to slide?
Malicious Contact. If you have Malicious contact, it supercedes everything. The entire defensive team could link arms and literally block the runner from home, that would be obstruction. BUT if the runner, seeing this obvious cheating, drops his shoulder to run through a player, that is malicious contact. He is out and the obstruction ignored. The key word is malicious.
case play 7 points out an inconsistency with the definition of an illegal slide. item “c” of an illegal slide states “EXCEPT at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters… “ it then talks about home plate by stating “At home plate it’s permissible for the slider’s momentum to carry him through the plate in a straight line(baseline extended.” HOWEVER, it does not speak to what happens when the non-force play at the plate sees a legal slide (within a hand’s reach_) ends up altering a play. it only speaks to altering a plan by a play “except at home plate”. So does a player making a non-force slide at home who ends up, through no fault of his own (bad throw to the catcher) altering a play? the definitions of legal/illegal slide and the penalties for each does not adequately cover this.
so question, if there is a tag play at the plate and the runner slides away from the catcher (i.e., not directly in line with the plate) and scores but hinders the catcher's ability to throw to 2nd, it's interference? I thought we said you could slide away from the tag?
You can slide away to avoid contact. It would be really hard to have a legal slide and interference. But, if he slides and then say trips the catcher, maybe interference. I would advise you not get caught up in this scenario. 😅
In Case Play 10, why doesn't the run score? I thought in the Malicious Contact video that if the runner scores before the malicious contact, the run scores?
This case play comes from the NFHS Case Book and is a little confusing. It's more clearly explained as the malicious contact occurs while sliding into the plate. The run does not score because the malicious contact occurs by the runner while still in the motion of sliding. An illegal slide/malicious contact would nullify the run.
Because we know the play that was being attempted was on the batter-runner. When we know who the play was going to be made on, we call out that player. We only get the runner closest to home when we DON'T know the runner a play was going to be made on.
If someone couple please help clarify this for a new guy like me... On Case Play 10, I was thinking the run should score. I understand the explanation of the force play silde rule negating the run and that makes sense, but I suppose I can't wrap my head around calling it an "illegal slide" in order to apply that rule when the player chose not to slide (ie. no slide existed, therefor how is it illegal and how are we applying "Sec.32 Art.2...A slide is illegal if:" - Given the reference of: "Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal."). I guess I had the runner scoring, then interference with malicous contact after - declaring B5 out because of the interference and ejecting R3. EDIT: Maybe we are assuming R3 slid, since it is a sliding video? I interpreted it as he just ran through and stepped on the plate the way it reads.
I'm a bit torn on this, as I _want_ to call it FPSR so I can punish the runner as much as possible. However, I don't see any way to make this a force play slide violation nor to get 2 outs. The way I see this play, assuming R3 was safe due to the throw pulling F2 off the base, is interference by a runner who just scored and malicious contact. Run scores, BR is out for the interference of his teammate, other runners return to the bases occupied at time of interference, and R3 is ejected for malicious contact. R3 violated no rule until after he scored.
@@josephhicks87 now if R3 was actually out, it's different. The caseplay description says "F4... throws to F2 for the force out at home."; we are taking the following sentence "The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps..." to mean that F2 caught the throw off the base and that R3 was safe (i.e. the intended force out was not successful). However, if that actually means that F2 stretched with his foot on the plate to record the out and then recovered several steps towards 1B as he set up to make the throw to F3, then yes of course, the run does not score and it's a double-play. But you don't even need the FPSR here, just plain ol' interference by a retired runner and malicious contact is fine; the advantage though of stuffing this into 8-4-2b instead of 8-4-2g is that it makes it a Time of Pitch penalty rather than Time of Interference, just in case R1 and/or R2 reached their next bases before R3 trucked F2 we can send them back. but if R3 legally scored and THEN committed an illegal act, I just don't see any way to use 8-4-2b to undo it.
Are you sure about case play #7? CASE PLAY #7: R2 is on second base with one out. B3 hits a single and R2 scores. After catching the throw behind the plate, F2 tries to throw to second but the slide hinders F2's throw. R2's slide was not in a straight line through the plate. You say the answer is: a) The ball is immediately dead. R2's run counts and B3 is called out on interference. Why is this interference? You say "this is interference by a retired runner." The case play says R2 scores. The play at the plate is not a force play; therefore, the only requirement is that R2 is within reach of the plate when sliding. Sliding in a straight line is only a requirement on a force play. This was a tag play and a play was being made on R2. I assume that's why the outfielder threw the ball to the plate. Maybe R2 was trying to elude a tag by sliding to the outside. He doesn't have to slide in a straight line. Further, R2 is also allowed to slide past the plate whether it's a force play or not. How is R2 supposed to know where the catcher is going to be positioned when he catches the throw from the outfield? I would say, c) R2's slide is legal - unless he makes a deliberate slash at F2.
@@aaronhaning5981 Right! We agree on what the requirements are for any runner sliding into home ON A FORCE PLAY. The case play is not a force play and the runner is pretty much free to slide in any manner he wants provided he is within reach of the plate and does not do something overtly deliberate like slash or grab at the catcher. This is why catchers who are receiving a throw at the plate, aware that there is not going to be a play on the runner, usually try to move up and catch the ball well in front of the plate just so something like this doesn't happen. If F2 is in the area of the plate when receiving the throw and the runner slides into F2 (not a force play), the runner only has to slide legally. In this case, it is not illegal to NOT slide in a straight line.
So, let's say there is a play on a runner trying to score. The throw is coming from right field. The runner slides to the outside of the plate (i.e. not in a straight line) in an attempt to elude the tag. He reaches out and touches the plate with his hand as he slides PAST the plate. The throw to the plate is high and off to the right (something the runner could have never predicted) and, as a result, the runner knocks the feet out from under the F2. This is an illegal slide?
@@aaronhaning5981 Not being argumentative - but wanting to understand this. Let's move the action to 3rd base. SITUATION: R1, no outs. PLAY: Base hit into left-center field. R1 is trying to go 1st-to-3rd. F8 fields the ball and throws directly to 3rd in an attempt to retire the runner. R1, aware that the throw is coming from left-center, decides to slide to the inside part of the bag to elude F5's tag. The throw is high and off to the right, causing F5 to jump up and to his right. The sliding R1 takes F5's feet out from under him. This prevents what could have been a possible follow-up play on the BR who takes advantage of the situation and advances into 2nd. RULING?
@@aaronhaning5981 I was kind of envisioning the type of elusive slide runners often do when they are convinced the throw is going to beat them and their primary concern is avoiding the tag and not so much on making contact with the base as soon as possible. I see runners who steal 2nd/3rd slide to the outside of the bag all the time and go past the bag to try and avoid the fielder's tag. I think nothing of it. It looks like baseball, to me Obviously, the quickest way to the base is a straight-in slide but it's often not the most elusive slide. So, in the hypothetical play above, I envisioned a feet-first slide to the inside of the bag with the runner reaching out with his right hand as he goes by. His feet go past the bag but he holds onto the base with his hand. F5 leaps up and slightly behind the bag because of the off-target throw and he lands on F5's legs and falls down.
@@aaronhaning5981 I'm not so sure there is a good way to *not* slide in a straight line with the intent of evading a tag and *not* slide through the bag. When it's a tag play (like stealing) and the ball beats the runner, it's very common to *not* slide in a straight line. It's extremely rare that the runner doesn't go beyond the bag in some way. SITUATION: R1 & R3. No outs. PLAY: R1 stealing on the pitch. F2 throws through. The throw is going to beat the runner. R1 tries to slide to the outside of the bag and reach out with his hand to avoid the tag. He manages to evade the tag as F2's throw is high and towards right field. F4 jumps up and to his left. The runner makes some contact with F4 as he slides a little past the bag. There is some contact between R1 and F4. Now R3 is trying to score and F4 needs to throw to the plate. RULING? For instance, I think these types of plays/slides are *extremely* common. I realize these are MLB games (below) but I just can't see calling a runner out if he makes any contact with the fielder when an off-target throw takes the fielder into the runner's path. I'd need a police escort to the parking lot. ruclips.net/video/SNV87ObpFvI/видео.html ruclips.net/video/wMzvqYBEcDw/видео.html I realize that not sliding in a straight line, even on a force play, is not a violation if 1) there is no contact with the fielder, 2) it does not alter the play, or 3) the runner doesn't slash out at the fielder. It's not an illegal slide if none of those things happen. But, we're talking about non-force plays and only discussing runners who slide *through* the bag. Usually, runners who do this are actually sliding AWAY from the fielder. There is seldom any contact, but contact *can* occur when the fielder moves into the runner's path due to an off-target throw - something the runner could not have anticipated despite his well-intended effort to AVOID the fielder. I guess I'm beating a dead horse at this point, huh? :)
Wow, what a surprise, there is contradictory statements in Fed. rules! A runner must slide in a direct line to a base on a force play, but he can also slide in a way in which his hand or foot can reach a base. Those two actions are not the same.
God Bless Patrick! We are all over these videos, San Fernando Valley Umpires' Association. Southern California. Thank you.
Glad you like them!
My new favorite channel. Everything is clearly explained and then the examples drive the point home. Thank you very much!!
You're very welcome!
2:32:1 states if a runner slides he must slide within reach of base or foot. Then later in the video the rule book states the runner can slide Andy from contact with a fielder, but if he doesn’t he must slide in a straight line into the base. Can you clarify please. Hope you are well and happy in Georgia. My first six games in Northern California have featured sideways snow. I need some Georgia sun and peach pie.
@@UmpireClassroom it’s 2:32:2 that states a runner must slide in a straight line to the base on a force play. This seems to contradict 2::2:1 which states a player must slide within reach of the base with hand or foot. I’m visualizing the N.C.A.A. rule that a runner must slide within the width of the base. Within reach of a hand or foot is very different from direct to the base. I’d this poor wording in the Fed. rule book, or am I missing something.
@@UmpireClassroom question if I may Patrick. Bases loaded no outs. Ground ball to F-4 who throws home for out # 1. R-3 does not slide. R-3 runs through home plate and made slight contact with F-2 at his left shoulder. F-2 fell down and was not able to throw to first base for a second out attempt. F-2 did not do a good job of clearing home plate and was still partially within width of the plate if you are looking at home plate from third base. R-3 ran straight through home plate with no intent to make contact with an elbow. I called nothing. What’s the call Patrick? Thank you sir.
These videos are excellent, thank you for taking the time to craft such informational and complete video content.
Hope it helps!
@@UmpireClassroomon case play # 4 R-1 slides illegally. Batter runner is out because of an illegal slide by R-1; not because R-1 ran out of a base path. There is no base path. A base path is created when a play ( a tag) is being made upon a runner. It’s sloppy, and imprecise language.
Awesome videos. Rules with case plays and actual explanations! ! PLEASE make as many as possible! Cover everything! Thanks!
More to come!
Thanks for the videos, great teaching too for Houston County Association.
Great videos all across this channel. Incredibly high-quality content and thumbnails. This should be getting 10x the amount of views - new umpires are slackin'! Just kidding, of course - but keep watching our friend here if you're calling NFHS ball. I had to learn the hard way, and these are all important parts of the game that are fun to go over, even after 25 years of officiating. Fantastic job.
Thanks for the support!
Great breakdown and analysis, Patrick. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks for the review videos - Houston County Umpires
Great stuff, and just in time, season starts in a week for us.
13:30 another question - I thought we also said that the runners can choose whether or not to slide? Or are you saying the contact the he made was considered an attempt for him to slide?
Malicious Contact.
If you have Malicious contact, it supercedes everything. The entire defensive team could link arms and literally block the runner from home, that would be obstruction.
BUT if the runner, seeing this obvious cheating, drops his shoulder to run through a player, that is malicious contact. He is out and the obstruction ignored.
The key word is malicious.
I’m hoping you can answer this question for me.
What if R1 goes into second standing up or doesn’t slide but also doesn’t bear off? Is R1 out or safe?
This was clarified to say that if the runner is not within sliding distance of the base, they are not expected to slide.
case play 7 points out an inconsistency with the definition of an illegal slide. item “c” of an illegal slide states “EXCEPT at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters… “ it then talks about home plate by stating “At home plate it’s permissible for the slider’s momentum to carry him through the plate in a straight line(baseline extended.” HOWEVER, it does not speak to what happens when the non-force play at the plate sees a legal slide (within a hand’s reach_) ends up altering a play. it only speaks to altering a plan by a play “except at home plate”. So does a player making a non-force slide at home who ends up, through no fault of his own (bad throw to the catcher) altering a play? the definitions of legal/illegal slide and the penalties for each does not adequately cover this.
so question, if there is a tag play at the plate and the runner slides away from the catcher (i.e., not directly in line with the plate) and scores but hinders the catcher's ability to throw to 2nd, it's interference? I thought we said you could slide away from the tag?
You can slide away to avoid contact. It would be really hard to have a legal slide and interference. But, if he slides and then say trips the catcher, maybe interference.
I would advise you not get caught up in this scenario. 😅
In Case Play 10, why doesn't the run score? I thought in the Malicious Contact video that if the runner scores before the malicious contact, the run scores?
This case play comes from the NFHS Case Book and is a little confusing. It's more clearly explained as the malicious contact occurs while sliding into the plate.
The run does not score because the malicious contact occurs by the runner while still in the motion of sliding. An illegal slide/malicious contact would nullify the run.
@@UmpireClassroom Ok, thanks.
Hopefully you can get videos to visually show each scenario mentioned
Definitely the goal. Have some stuff in the works on this!
Why isn't R2 out in Case Play 6 instead of the Batter-Runner?
Because we know the play that was being attempted was on the batter-runner. When we know who the play was going to be made on, we call out that player. We only get the runner closest to home when we DON'T know the runner a play was going to be made on.
@@UmpireClassroom Thanks.
If someone couple please help clarify this for a new guy like me... On Case Play 10, I was thinking the run should score. I understand the explanation of the force play silde rule negating the run and that makes sense, but I suppose I can't wrap my head around calling it an "illegal slide" in order to apply that rule when the player chose not to slide (ie. no slide existed, therefor how is it illegal and how are we applying "Sec.32 Art.2...A slide is illegal if:" - Given the reference of: "Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal."). I guess I had the runner scoring, then interference with malicous contact after - declaring B5 out because of the interference and ejecting R3. EDIT: Maybe we are assuming R3 slid, since it is a sliding video? I interpreted it as he just ran through and stepped on the plate the way it reads.
I'm a bit torn on this, as I _want_ to call it FPSR so I can punish the runner as much as possible. However, I don't see any way to make this a force play slide violation nor to get 2 outs. The way I see this play, assuming R3 was safe due to the throw pulling F2 off the base, is interference by a runner who just scored and malicious contact. Run scores, BR is out for the interference of his teammate, other runners return to the bases occupied at time of interference, and R3 is ejected for malicious contact. R3 violated no rule until after he scored.
@@davej3781 yes, that's what I had. Look forward to someone explaining why the FPSR would be applied here for two outs as the case answer said.
@@josephhicks87 now if R3 was actually out, it's different. The caseplay description says "F4... throws to F2 for the force out at home."; we are taking the following sentence "The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps..." to mean that F2 caught the throw off the base and that R3 was safe (i.e. the intended force out was not successful). However, if that actually means that F2 stretched with his foot on the plate to record the out and then recovered several steps towards 1B as he set up to make the throw to F3, then yes of course, the run does not score and it's a double-play. But you don't even need the FPSR here, just plain ol' interference by a retired runner and malicious contact is fine; the advantage though of stuffing this into 8-4-2b instead of 8-4-2g is that it makes it a Time of Pitch penalty rather than Time of Interference, just in case R1 and/or R2 reached their next bases before R3 trucked F2 we can send them back.
but if R3 legally scored and THEN committed an illegal act, I just don't see any way to use 8-4-2b to undo it.
@@davej3781malicious contact negates the run. Malicious contact takes a run off the scoreboard. They are students. It’s a severe penalty
Are you sure about case play #7?
CASE PLAY #7: R2 is on second base with one out. B3 hits a single and R2 scores. After catching the throw behind the plate, F2 tries to throw to second but the slide hinders F2's throw. R2's slide was not in a straight line through the plate.
You say the answer is:
a) The ball is immediately dead. R2's run counts and B3 is called out on interference.
Why is this interference? You say "this is interference by a retired runner." The case play says R2 scores.
The play at the plate is not a force play; therefore, the only requirement is that R2 is within reach of the plate when sliding. Sliding in a straight line is only a requirement on a force play. This was a tag play and a play was being made on R2. I assume that's why the outfielder threw the ball to the plate. Maybe R2 was trying to elude a tag by sliding to the outside. He doesn't have to slide in a straight line. Further, R2 is also allowed to slide past the plate whether it's a force play or not. How is R2 supposed to know where the catcher is going to be positioned when he catches the throw from the outfield?
I would say, c) R2's slide is legal - unless he makes a deliberate slash at F2.
@@aaronhaning5981 Right! We agree on what the requirements are for any runner sliding into home ON A FORCE PLAY. The case play is not a force play and the runner is pretty much free to slide in any manner he wants provided he is within reach of the plate and does not do something overtly deliberate like slash or grab at the catcher. This is why catchers who are receiving a throw at the plate, aware that there is not going to be a play on the runner, usually try to move up and catch the ball well in front of the plate just so something like this doesn't happen. If F2 is in the area of the plate when receiving the throw and the runner slides into F2 (not a force play), the runner only has to slide legally. In this case, it is not illegal to NOT slide in a straight line.
So, let's say there is a play on a runner trying to score. The throw is coming from right field. The runner slides to the outside of the plate (i.e. not in a straight line) in an attempt to elude the tag. He reaches out and touches the plate with his hand as he slides PAST the plate. The throw to the plate is high and off to the right (something the runner could have never predicted) and, as a result, the runner knocks the feet out from under the F2.
This is an illegal slide?
@@aaronhaning5981 Not being argumentative - but wanting to understand this. Let's move the action to 3rd base.
SITUATION: R1, no outs.
PLAY: Base hit into left-center field. R1 is trying to go 1st-to-3rd. F8 fields the ball and throws directly to 3rd in an attempt to retire the runner. R1, aware that the throw is coming from left-center, decides to slide to the inside part of the bag to elude F5's tag. The throw is high and off to the right, causing F5 to jump up and to his right. The sliding R1 takes F5's feet out from under him. This prevents what could have been a possible follow-up play on the BR who takes advantage of the situation and advances into 2nd.
RULING?
@@aaronhaning5981 I was kind of envisioning the type of elusive slide runners often do when they are convinced the throw is going to beat them and their primary concern is avoiding the tag and not so much on making contact with the base as soon as possible. I see runners who steal 2nd/3rd slide to the outside of the bag all the time and go past the bag to try and avoid the fielder's tag. I think nothing of it. It looks like baseball, to me
Obviously, the quickest way to the base is a straight-in slide but it's often not the most elusive slide.
So, in the hypothetical play above, I envisioned a feet-first slide to the inside of the bag with the runner reaching out with his right hand as he goes by. His feet go past the bag but he holds onto the base with his hand. F5 leaps up and slightly behind the bag because of the off-target throw and he lands on F5's legs and falls down.
@@aaronhaning5981 I'm not so sure there is a good way to *not* slide in a straight line with the intent of evading a tag and *not* slide through the bag.
When it's a tag play (like stealing) and the ball beats the runner, it's very common to *not* slide in a straight line. It's extremely rare that the runner doesn't go beyond the bag in some way.
SITUATION: R1 & R3. No outs.
PLAY: R1 stealing on the pitch. F2 throws through. The throw is going to beat the runner. R1 tries to slide to the outside of the bag and reach out with his hand to avoid the tag. He manages to evade the tag as F2's throw is high and towards right field. F4 jumps up and to his left. The runner makes some contact with F4 as he slides a little past the bag. There is some contact between R1 and F4. Now R3 is trying to score and F4 needs to throw to the plate.
RULING?
For instance, I think these types of plays/slides are *extremely* common. I realize these are MLB games (below) but I just can't see calling a runner out if he makes any contact with the fielder when an off-target throw takes the fielder into the runner's path. I'd need a police escort to the parking lot.
ruclips.net/video/SNV87ObpFvI/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/wMzvqYBEcDw/видео.html
I realize that not sliding in a straight line, even on a force play, is not a violation if 1) there is no contact with the fielder, 2) it does not alter the play, or 3) the runner doesn't slash out at the fielder. It's not an illegal slide if none of those things happen.
But, we're talking about non-force plays and only discussing runners who slide *through* the bag. Usually, runners who do this are actually sliding AWAY from the fielder. There is seldom any contact, but contact *can* occur when the fielder moves into the runner's path due to an off-target throw - something the runner could not have anticipated despite his well-intended effort to AVOID the fielder.
I guess I'm beating a dead horse at this point, huh? :)
Wow, what a surprise, there is contradictory statements in Fed. rules! A runner must slide in a direct line to a base on a force play, but he can also slide in a way in which his hand or foot can reach a base. Those two actions are not the same.