I'd politely suggest watching the video before commenting 😆 as there's a fair bit of (misplaced) anger oddly. Trying to bring some reason to a discussion which gets people hyperbolic...I tried anyway.
Lol you should have known this would happen. Too much passion from all parts of the world aaaand to many unbelievably good players to compare with. Unfortunately this is a question one cannot ever answer
I have to disagree with you,he doesn't deserve to be in the GOAT conversation let's not get caught in the moment,the likes of Richie McCaw,Dan Carter,PSDT,Brian Habana,Siya Kolisi...let me just say Springboks and New Zealand players have been consistently playing at the GOAT level for a period of over 8years,you can't GOAT du Pont over 18months
Dan Carter in my opinion 5x NPC champion, Ranfurly Shield 3x Super Rugby Champ 2x Top14 champ 1x Top League Champ, 9x Rugby Championship trophy 1x British and Irish Lions series victory 3x home nation grand slam tours 3x Player of the Year 2x RWC titles All time leading point scorer in both Super Rugby and International 112 test for 99 wins 1 draw and 12 losses
Lots of comments about how skilled DuPont is, unmatched vision…some of the tries Beauden Barrett either set up or scored are equal to anything I’ve seen from DuPont. Oh and imagine how good Barrett would have been at sevens in his prime.
As a Saffa and bok fan, I whole heartedly agree. Knowing Carter was going to be on the field made any other teams fans nervous. Dupont is awesome but southern hemisphere teams don't fear him. He's never even played here.
There is no such thing. Every generation produces someone special. At 69 years old, I have seen many such players. Gareth Edward, David Duckham, Serge Blanco, Naas Botha, Danie Gerber, Andy Irvine, Willie John McBride, Sean Fitzpatrick, Jonah Lomu, Gavin Hastings, Cheslin Kolbe and the list goes on. All these players were only as good as their team-mates. Appreciate the game not just individuals, for without a team you are nothing!
I feel like sometimes there is such a thing as a goat like Gretzky in hockey. I don’t think anyone could argue he’s not the greatest. It’s just very hard to debate in rugby because every position is so different but also crucial in its own right.
@@spheanniks8131 Exactly right. Gretzky was so far ahead of everyone else that there is no debate. In rugby., there are a lot of players in different positions and different eras who were, or are great, but saying someone was the greatest boils down to personal preference.
@@fredlenz4743 But the Best rugby sevens player with skills, speed with fitness some players only dream off goes to Mr Jerry Tuwai GOAT 🐐 OF SEVENS no argument there
Agree. As Bok supporter, Porta is the best 10 I've seen. Put him in the teams Carter and Bennet and Botha and Wilkenson had, and it would've been NO contest.
Hello, I'm french and an early supporter of Antoine (before he turned 18yo). I share your questionning. As you do, I consider he is currently the best rugby player in the world. If you listen all his interviews he always valuate the team not himself (as he perfectly knows rugby is a collective game). I can say he doesn't consider himself as the greatest player of all time but he works hard to have a chance to become one of the GOAT ! He is full of humility, a hard worker, smart, a leader and a gifted player. Wish him to improve till he stops and can be considered as one of the greatest. Kind regards. Didier
Completely agree with all the caveats and points you make in this very well-reasoned and balanced assessment; as you say we should already be grateful to be around to watch and enjoy this phenomenal player. Personally, I have never witnessed something equivalent in all my ( long ) rugby years. Thank you for this enlightening video and your passion for the game
I'd say Richie McCaw. 148 tests, captaining 111, winning 98. 2 x World Cups, Lions series winner as captain, 10 superrugby titles. Career spanning 14 years. His impact on the game over that span is unmatched. He was a standout amongst standouts. From a Springbok supporter.
Dupont has to get a RWC for France to be up with the GOATS. France are due to win the world cup. There's a difference between Best and GOAT. Best is actual abilities and skills while playing - Greatest is achievements over career.
@@kelbatt7729 he just explained to you why wc isnt always relevant. Lets say du pont plays 8 more years and wins world player of the year every year for 8 years but no wc... is he not the goat?
In the Carter v Dupont debate, I liken it to the Federer v Nadal/Djokovic debates. Carter was the artist, so unbelievably stylish in his kicking, his passing, his character. Dupont is just relentless, powerful etc. I personally will always prefer the artistry. Hence Carter, Federer, Brian Lara, Messi being my favourites of their respective sports.
The thing is that adding to everything you listed, Dupont IS also an artistry. Some of the tries/assists/plays he regularly produces are just pure magic and have nothing to do with pure power or relentlessness
Carter played in a dominant all black side, with a scrum always on the front foot, Dupont is the difference in most games he plays in, Carter is alamazing I don't doubt that the way he dominated the lions in 05 but did little when he came to perpingnon, also changing codes and dominating has to elevate Dupont among many others
Only two players have been 3x World Player of the Year. Both won the World Cup twice. One is the all time top point scorer, the other is the most successful captain and third most capped player of all time. It’s got to be either Carter or McCaw.
Dan Carter about Dupont winning Olympic gold: “It’s been incredible. Not many people will realise that since rugby 7s became an Olympic sport the game has really turned with these professional athletes,” the All Blacks legend told Discovery+. “Rugby 7s and rugby XVs, they’re two different sports and a lot of players have tried to cross over and really struggled. “I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is to go from XVs to 7s, so for Dupont to be able to do that seamlessly and have success immediately, it just goes to show what an incredible athlete he is. “I’m sure he’s still learning and adjusting to the game but you wouldn’t know when you go and watch him. “There’s been a couple of key moments when the French team needed him where he stepped up and scored incredible tries. His ability to come on at the end of the game and open it up, he’s a freak.”
I'm a 58 yr old SAFFA and proud Springbok supporter and it boggles my mind how quickly people forget the hero's of yesteryear? For me Jonah Lomu will *ALWAYS* stand out! Danie Gerber - Jonny Wilkinson - David Campese and Willie John McBride have *ALL* excelled respectively!
Dupont brings a certain completeness and intelligence to the game that no other player has ever brought. He's a pure 9, but could arguably play anywhere in the back. He's physical, clever, fast, has got hands and (both) feet, is a leader who also plays to make his teammates' performances better, and the guy is incredibly humble both on and off the pitch. None of the aforementioned players had all this. Again, maybe the only thing he's missing is indeed a world cup.
@@kurtz7221Dupont has never won a test match outside of the northern hemisphere. He has never even toured South. The only completeness to his game is how he completely avoids getting on an airplane
Recency bias is always a problem in the GOAT debate. Hard not to be a prisoner of the moment but need to step back. As always your points are well articulated.
As an all rounder, he has to be the best I’ve seen 95-present. The guy can break tackles with strength, perfect passing, strong fend, kicks 50-22 at the base of a ruck woth both feet, electric steps and speed, tackles like a 7 (remember him holding Mack Hensen on his own try line), can manage a game like an international 10, cross kick passing (of both feet once again), won more turnovers than the whole Leinster pack combined (basically the pack of the Irish team who just won a game in SA) in a European Cup final (while slotting 2 50-22 in that same game). He actually finished 2nd for more turnovers won in this year’s Champion’s Cup (he plays 9 !!) while also finishing 1st or 2nd for most line breaks, defenders beaten and meters made. And a lot of Safa play and have played in that competition, without ever coming close to those stats (or any player from any nationality and any era tbh) Without him, France hadn’t win a 7 tournament since 2005. He came in and they won in LA, WC final in Madrid and now won the Olympics against an undefeated Olympic Fijian team after a final that he single handily changed. His only flow is to have lost a game by 1pt against the best pack in the world while rushing to be back in shape 3 weeks after breaking his cheekbone (and still had an amazing game). I’ve never seen a player like him, never. DC didn’t have his defensive nor jackling ability, Joost or Foorie his kicking game, AS his running lines or strength, Lomu his skills and vision… He’s just the best, most complete player I’ve ever seen, and he’s only 27 (at that age Richie and DC had just lost a 1/4 final to France in 2007 remember ?). We are just witnessing the Messi of rugby, wait a few years and we will all be looking back asking ourselves how we could have doubted that he was the GOAT. Frankly I just don’t get what people need. NZ and SA are the greatest rugby nation, doesn’t change the fact that he’s better than any player sho came out of those countries. 9+9 > 10+7
Christian Cullen the best running back ive seen in the past 30 years. There are lengthy RUclips videos of him scoring GREAT tries. Performed consistently at all levels and gave us bokke many sleepless nights.
Amazing talent. As much as I fully appreciate all the nuanced skills required by different positions, attacking skills are the making of so many of the greats. Something special about those players with rare and incredible skills
As a South African, the GOAT was Lomu. He changed rugby is so many ways. His presence changed defensive structures and strategies forever. Yes he and all players are not perfect but he changed the game completely for the better when he burst on the scene and for that, he must be considered the goat. He made it exciting even when he didn't score. Was incredible to see. Size, speed and presence.
He was almost unstoppable on attack (running over defenders due to his brute strength) but had many flaws otherwise to his game. So no, not for me. Also never scored a try against South Africa.
Great player for sure. You can call him the G.O.A.T. or any of those other great players, as long as the Boks continue winning world cups and lions tours, I don't really care 😃
Great perspectives Tim, as always. And a much more measured tone to a very emotive issue. One thing about Dupont that irks the Southern Hemisphere rugby fans is that his administrators seem almost hellbent on manufacturing his greatness. France do not travel to the South often, and when they do, they don't go to South Africa or New Zealand, arguably the toughest countries in which to win an away game. And Dupont sits the July internationals out anyway. Until Dupont applies his brilliance in tougher environments and wins the bigger moments - RWC final, All Blacks at Eden Park, Springboks at Loftus - he simply cannot be taken seriously as a GOAT contender.
It's a shame France don't tour properly South. They send young teams because the Top 14 is such a long, arduous season the players need to rest. It's one reason why the Nations Cup idea wont work how World Rugby are hoping.
I don’t agree. As the evidence suggests, the difference between the top four / five national teams is limited. The champions cup is factually the hardest club competition in the world.
He’s so complete at his position, on all the skills a scrum half needs to have, that he’s surely on of the best player ever. We’re lucky to see him play. What he did on the 7s olympics is really incredible.
I'm Irish. Serge Blanco for me was the best player, Maybe not others would think. But no dought he was definitely the best attacking fullback in the history of rugby union. There are so many positions in rugby with so many great players to choose from.
I'm french and for me O'Driscoll have no complexe to have in front of Blanco. But Carter and Dupont are halves, complete, and also have genius, and genius as a reflex. AT thé Time, i'd Say Carter first. But Antoine loves so to learn, fix, give, play, and, not willing, shine... And, perhaps, the good point : he's quite a good 10. But, as a french, i love him in the loose from a bit. Life Can be beautyful, but it remains a defeat. Only defeat can be really beautyful. Sorry for my english. And sorry not to speak gaelic at all. :)
I would rank Cullen higher, but Blanco was magic and was lucky to see him play live vs Australia in WC 87. ruclips.net/video/ZVN4Sq95BT4/видео.html Was sitting in the middle of a group of French fans very close to where the camera that took this shot was located, but closer to French end.
@@Hotwhiskey1 Oldies, and they're first to Say that, could not stand a half-time of modern rugby. Physically but not only. All the game progressed. Carter had years of advance. No?
South African here. DuPont is some player. He is well on his way to becoming one of the GOATS. I don’t subscribe to one Greatest of all time. You can be the greatest right now but only ONE of the greatests of all time. Great video Tim!
@@harrymac5229Honest question: Let's say you could hypothetically swop Marx for someone on the AB team. Who is the best player you would allow to go? Savea? Barrett? Jordan? Telea?
This season alone from Dupont is maybe the greatest individual season ever! Best player of the Champions Cup, miles ahead of competition in the knockout stage, destroyed Top14 like we have never seen before from him, and casually masters 7s rugby with one tournament win and the Championship title before getting the gold medal at the Olympic at home ..!! All of that being the main player with the biggest impact. The bitter loss against SA at home woke up a monster in him. He seems more hungry, more determined, more of a killer since last autumn. The talent - and what a talent! - has always been there. For me, if he plays like this 4 or 5 seasons more - with one or two 6 Nations titles, and let's not make too much of a deal with the World Cup - he will be the greatest player of all time, he already is the greatest scrum half of all time.
@@EggchasersRugby and he just got much better where he could improve in the last couple of years, making him almost flawless in my opinion ... kicking game is elite, he became a monster in defense, and just showed great, star level leadership this season ! he is doing it all now (even posing as a model and being socially involved in France nom de Dieu!!), it's insane ...
The world cup is the biggest deal that is why, it's called the world cup 😂 great great player but come on now he can't be the greatest if he can't win the world cup his playing in the one of if not the greatest French side ever not some minnow team who has no right to win a world cup.
@@luffytaro3068 nah making it all about one competition is not right in my opinion ... French international players play up to 40 games per year and it comes down to 4 or 5 games played every 4 years ? No no no ... For me it's an easy (and stupid, sorry...) way of disqualifying him. He is the greatest rugby player in the world at the moment, since 3 or 4 years, and by far ! He can become the goat if he keeps playing like this in the next years
I fully agree with you. More than wins, it's a player's greatness in big games that counts. Wilkinson's drop-goal with its wrong foot in the RWC final is the epitome of greatness. Lomu's try in the RWC semi-final, that's the epitome of greatness. Great players reveal themselves in great matches.
Loving all the love for Danie Gerber. Joost was a player who excited like no other over a full completed career. Jonah, Campo, Zinzan, JPR Williams and others. But I still have no problem with people saying Dupont is the GOAT. In soccer, there was George Best or Kenny Dalgleish. Not world cup winners but right up there. But perhaps, with grudging respect (yes, still) I haven't seen a better player in rugby than Richie McCaw.
Dupont was in the perfect position to win the World Cup. He played in a great team, was the best player in the world, and had the home field advantage. It's hard not to compare this to the great Richie McCaw, who was dealt a similar hand in 2011 but, like a true champion, managed to win the Rugby World Cup. Skill is one thing, but results matter as well.
I wouldn't put him on the same stage as DC (yet). Carter was almost the perfect 10, for a huge period of time. Most international points ever, 1,598. "That' Lions performance where he scored 33 individual points. But watching him tear his adductor in 2011 and then create the comeback arc for 2015 was incredible. Being the 10 in NZ comes with immense pressure, and he constantly delivered on the world stage. He also holds the world record for the total number of conversions (293) and also total number of penalties (281) in rugby while collating 29 tries along the way. He had pace, a fend of doom and notched up 1 (and a half) world cups. We have barely seen Dupont play live in the SH, he needs to get some long distance travel under his belt and fight it out in hostile territory more often, like SA and Eden park.
Each Era will have it own greats, it's nearly impossible to compare different generations, as the game is also evolving, so it's played differently across the generations.... fully and agree Tim, A du Pont is up there for sure, his tenacity and grit in the RWC reflects nerves of steel to play in a QF facing a physical team like the BOKS... The man is fearless... great video Tim, real food for thought and entertaining
I watch at least ten rugby vids a day, and a select few, a handful, have made it onto my playlist over the years - this one has made it there. Such a warm, fair, knowledgeable and, most importantly, honorable articulation of a complex opinion of the greatness of a player in a large-team sport.
Dan Carter is the greatest rugby player. He has scored a total of 1,598 test points (29 tries, 293 conversions, 281 penalties, and 8 drop goals) in 112 tests, with an average of 14.27 points a game (the highest average for players who have scored more than 500 Test points).
Dan Carter about Dupont winning Olympic gold: “It’s been incredible. Not many people will realise that since rugby 7s became an Olympic sport the game has really turned with these professional athletes,” the All Blacks legend told Discovery+. “Rugby 7s and rugby XVs, they’re two different sports and a lot of players have tried to cross over and really struggled. “I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is to go from XVs to 7s, so for Dupont to be able to do that seamlessly and have success immediately, it just goes to show what an incredible athlete he is. “I’m sure he’s still learning and adjusting to the game but you wouldn’t know when you go and watch him. “There’s been a couple of key moments when the French team needed him where he stepped up and scored incredible tries. His ability to come on at the end of the game and open it up, he’s a freak.”
This is indeed a tough cookie to crumble! For me the "greatness" comes from the players' ability to consistently impact on how the game is played. Not simply by being a talented player, but by their ability to create opportunity, be unpredictable, staying inside the laws and also being able to interpret the laws to the benefit of the team game in and game out. Your comments on the top 15 is what I agree with and also your comments that it takes all shapes and sizes to achieve "greatness" within a team sport. Dupont is a hugely exciting and fantastic player, especially in his ability to switch between 7's and union and impact the game in the same exciting way. I do not think it is fair in a team environment to refer to any team member as a GOAT, but rather as one of the most exciting players to have ever stepped on the pitch. Dupont is the only player I can recall that had a law change as a result of his playing style or how he found a loophole in the laws to the benefit of the team he was playing for.
Let's just talk about scrumhalves for now. A player who is hardly mentioned is Joost van der Westhuizen. He scored 38 tries for South Africa, playing most of his games against the All Blacks and rampant Australia. How many did Du Pont score? As another example, did anyone see Sid Going play?
@@hansdedipper2912 Joost's teammates prefer Joost while Fourie's teammates prefer Fourie. But no-one dispute that no scrumhalf scored more tries than Joost
The best scrum half GOAT of all time is Fourie Du Preez. I would put him right up there with one of the best Rugby Players South Africa ever produced. Joost VD Westuizen was also great. However Fourie could read a game. Most underrated player ever!
Great scrumhalf but did not have the flair of a Du Pont nor Van der Westhuizen (wasn't as quick either). I do reckon he had a better all round game than Joost though.
@@thamimdlamini I said Du Preez was not as fast as Joost or Du Pont but his all round game was better than than that of Joost. Joost was very fast, faster than Du Pont too.
Fourie du Preez didn’t just have great skills he had an ability to control a game. The 36-0 demolition of England in the pool match in the 2007 WRC is the ultimate performance by a 9
For me greatness is when a player has the ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck in the moments of intense pressure and do extraordinary things to change the destiny of the game.
I'm 49 year old, I watch Rugby in Stadiums since 1981 grand slam for France and I am Season ticket holder on Stade Toulousain. I never see a rugby player like Antoine Dupont. Most of the guys don't watch this guy in the french league. He's phénomenal most of the time. I have a lot of respect for many players but for me he's the Goat.
I believe us watching Antoine Dupont now is the exact same situation when we had Ronaldo and Messi in their prime. Phenoms of the game that we just have to enjoy watching when we can
No one mentioning Dani Gerber - an incredible rugby player, but Dupont right up there. Would also throw into the mix Jonah Lomu, Dan Carter, Barry John, Serge Blanco, Christian Cullen, Brian O'Driscoll and then the forwards - Richie McCaw, Colin Meades etc
In a reply to another commenter, I have Gerber in my Greatest XV. Incredible player...and someone who highlights that just picking World Cups or medals might not be the fairest metric. Or at least, other factors come into the equation.
I would like to see him on a tour to New Zealand or South Africa and see how he handles the pressure. Only games he’s played outside of Europe were at the 2019 WC.
Dear Tim, he is certainly up there but you need to measure this against the Colin Meads, Dan Carter, Richie Macaw, Joost Van der Westhuisen. He has found the space that 7s provides. He has a remarkable talent but let’s keep our feet on the ground.
He needs to play more games against South Africa and New Zealand. He needs to deal with that pressure and give a man in the match performance in a game there.
It is a good discussion to have. Dupont is a young GOAT. The old GOATs like Du Preez and Carter are also loved by many. It is OK 😂 we all are activated and talking rugby. Good 👍
Excellent video as always Tim. I think you're starting to have quite an audience in France since your coverage of the RWC. I couldn't agree more with all your arguments. Very well put ! ;)
One swallow doesn't make a summer. Started off with a bang in that match and ended like a wilted flower. Would like to see him behind a losing pack (which actually happened later on in that match).
But as others have said rugby is a team sport and how could ADP stop his team mates doing terrible kicks, one that even went backwards like we’ve never seen before in a rugby game, balls getting ripped off them as per FDK in those final moments and other key players not turning up in that game…yes their bad performance was also due to Bok pressure of course but the French made so many errors that day nothing to do with ADP who was playing with a fractured cheek
I love it that you called it a debate! That is exactly what this is. I do think you as a individual can be the best even if you don't win a world cup, this is a team sport. It's so difficult in rugby to compare players in different positions. I do strongly believe that it's too early to juge DuPont so early in his career, by the time of the next world cup we may all be talking about how much talent he had, and never made it.... I do not want that, but it might happen. I do think he is brilliant.
A GOAT is someone that comes along once in a 100 years. Someone who you know will never be seen again, the like of him. And indeed there is only one person that meets that criteria in the last 100 years … Jonah Lomu. Herewith endith the debate.
No, not even close. He is not in the fifty best players in the world and maybe makes the cut in the top 5 of test scrumhalves. The reason for this is simple: his achievements, while admirable, are all in the lesser arena of club rugby. In test rugby, his CV is not impressive at all. One six nations, two quarter final exits. Team sport, sure, but this is France, who used to dominate the Six Nations. Then we get to the real nitty gritty: he only has 24 minutes of playing time outside of Europe. He has never won a test match abroad. He has never even played in the intimidating cauldrons of the South. I'm beginning to wonder if the man has ever been inside any sort of aircraft at all. All in all, based on this career, he is currently a very good club level scrumhalf. In tests, he is dangerous against smaller teams, but an irritation at best against more formidable teams.
@@MaximeGregoire-ry8jg He won in Ireland in 2020. That was the same team who lost to Japan three months before. I wouldn't even bother putting that on a CV. England team before 2023? Yeah sure, that can go. Good! He has one victory away over a Top 4 team away that I can count (if England were in the Top 4 at that stage, that is) As for beating the Boks and NZ at home, well, yeah. It is an achievement, always. But that is what should be expected from a three time world cup finalist side like France; to beat teams in their own back yard. I think you would find the amount of SA and NZ legends calling him the best ever are really short in supply. We had much better scrumhalves of our own, who actually played more than 25 minutes overseas. He is a fantastic club player, I'll give you that. One of the best ever for Toulouse. But that is where his greatness ends.
Too many complexities in rugby to identify the GOAT. Winning the Rugby World Cup shouldn't be a criteria. Some rugby greats never won a world cup eg Late Jonah Lomu or even had a chance to play in a world cup, . Great point also about Pieter Steph du Toit and several others who could be in the mix. Its just too complicated for rugby unlike the GOAT in 100m sprint which is obvious
It would be foolish to believe that a player is not an all time great due to lack of World Cup success . However If you’re trying to determine a goat you’re comparing all time greats with very little between them in terms of all time ranking so World Cup performance should be taken into account seeing as it’s the biggest stage in the sport. Unless of course the player is from somewhere like Fiji , Scotland , Samoa etc where you’re at a big disadvantage.
I totally agree, winning a world should be a consideration but not too much weight should be put on it. We have seen and we will see in the future many rugby greats that will never win a world cup by virtue of the Nations they represent. Certainly not in our lifetime anyway
Seen Monsieur Du Pont at Ravenhill this past season .. Just sublime player, he threw at least 8 - 10 no look passes hitting the target every time. Bossed the game . Pleasure to watch him
@@EggchasersRugbyhere's another idea for you. The greatest individual performances. You could have a series actually PSTD in the WC Final 2023/Johna Lomu vs Eng 95 quarter final or if we go Provincial Gavin Lawless vs Highlanders 1997 and we can go on and on...
Lots of shouts for Danie Gerber, who from the little I've seen was formidable (in English and French). But has everyone forgotten that Frik du Preez was voted SA player of the 20th century ahead of him? Huge man for his time, and FAST for his size. I believe his contemporary Colin Meads has his supporters on here already. Neither had the heft of the 150kg leviathans of today, but both had engines with torque and horsepower.
THE BEST EVER - DANIE GERBER 🙌 He single handedly destroyed his opponents with his incredible strength, speed, endurance and IQ. He was on a complete different level to other players. Greatest center of all time. He would walk into any team today with his eyes closed. GOAT 🙌
@@MU-TH-UR Gerber played flyhalf , centre and wing. He was also the main goalkicker for some of the provinces he played for. Not sure Du Pont would be a world class centre, flyhalf or winger. Most definitely brilliant at scrumhalf. Danie was also much faster than Du Pont and probably stronger. In his last test against the AB's at the age of 34, Gerber still scored 2 tries.
@@nic0072 Duponty can play like a 10 (he played Ten several times)and a loose forward. So that's even. Sure Dupont at ten is far from being the best but I don't rememebr Gerber being labelled as a word class FH either. I don't think either of us is capable of saying wich one of Dany or Antoine is Faster or Stronger. As much as i like D.Gerber i don't see how he tops A.Dupont.
@@MU-TH-UR Gerber played many games at flyhalf and wing at provincial level at a time when provincial rugby was extremely strong in SA. He ended his playing career playing at wing and still ran away from the youngsters.
Great player, with qualities in advance for his time; rugby became officialy professional in August 1995. For me the greatest player of the amateur ers and a is Gareth Edwards, but I have seen few matches with the Springboks in the 80s and early 90s.
A fabulous presentation of the facts. Feel entirely the same: he’s up there (despite my name I’m American and an NFL and rugby fan) and time will tell.
I agree with you Tim, let's just enjoy all these phenomenally talented players for who they are and what they've done for the game, without having to rank them.
Dupont is out of this world. Best 9 we've seen and the best player in the world atm but as far as the greatest most gifted player the game has ever seen, for me I feel like Dan Carter is the greatest I've ever seen
Horrid take. DC was insane, best 10 we have seen, but there is no way he is as gifted as Dupont. Antoine is perfect in essentially every facet of the game, IQ, defence, kicking off both feet, jackaling, passing, running, i could go on..
@@PJGFC it’s not a “take”. It’s my opinion you are entitled to yours. “greatest I’ve ever seen”. Ie from my eyes. We all see things differently. And FOR ME Carter is the most gifted rugby player I have seen. I have no problem with anyone saying DuPont is or anyone else at that level. DuPonts all round game is for sure better than a lot or even all players in this conversation. But it’s not just about all round game for me. FOR ME, it’s about the magic flare and vision they bring to the game and in my opinion Carter was it. FOR ME
Dan Carter about Dupont winning Olympic gold: “It’s been incredible. Not many people will realise that since rugby 7s became an Olympic sport the game has really turned with these professional athletes,” the All Blacks legend told Discovery+. “Rugby 7s and rugby XVs, they’re two different sports and a lot of players have tried to cross over and really struggled. “I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is to go from XVs to 7s, so for Dupont to be able to do that seamlessly and have success immediately, it just goes to show what an incredible athlete he is. “I’m sure he’s still learning and adjusting to the game but you wouldn’t know when you go and watch him. “There’s been a couple of key moments when the French team needed him where he stepped up and scored incredible tries. His ability to come on at the end of the game and open it up, he’s a freak.”
@@jean-pascalesparceil9008 yep Carter isn’t lying. Just going from 15s to 7s like he has is insane. I’ve been suprisd at how easily both him and Cory Toole for Australia have seamlessly slotted into playing 7s so quickly.
@@tiekumarkyou're entitled to your opinion but at least, give us arguments to justify it and give us areas where you think DC was better than DuPont and why (other than goalkicking of course as Dupont doesn't goalkick...though he's showed he could do it more than decently against Munster few seasons ago)
It's a privilege to be able to watch a generational player such as him. Hopefully he maintains his form until retirement and then everyone can finally set the debate to rest and acknowledge he is the GOAT.
Antoine Dupont is the AB De Villiers of Rugby. Surely, one of, if not the, most freakishly talented individuals to ever play the game. Overall impact on the game, TBC. Verdict is still out, but he is a contender.
@brianodriscoll2725 No, stopped by the team's stupid decision to eat out in an environment where you have no control over the food quality. They took that risk, and paid the price.
I've been watching rugby for over 40 years. I've seen plenty of the greats in that time period. Dupont, for me, is the best player I've ever seen. He always exceeds expectations. No 1 player is as valuable as he is to a side. He has it all.
Great conversation - Rugby is such a great sport that there cannot be a single GOAT. Too many aspects to consider as you mentioned. Technically there should be 15 GOATs in Rugby. IMHO - Is Antoine one of the best players currently - YES, for sure.
I think people who use the World Cup argument against him are ridiculous because nobody would be talking about Richie McCaw if he was not part of the greatest rugby team in history. He would not have won two World Cups if he was not part of that team. he had a team filled with the greatest players in rugby history and so it was much easier for him to dominate rugby in the time that he did. But you could be the greatest the greatest player ever, but you just happen to be from a country with an average team, so it would be impossible for you to win a World Cup. the reason why Cristiano Ronaldo didn’t win a world cup, despite certainly being in the debate for the greatest given his individual stats, is because he happened to be unlucky that he is Portuguese and not Spanish. So it is a very unfair way of determining who is the greatest player because a World Cup is won by a team rather than a player and that mostly has to do with the luck of where you were born and that you just happen to be active during the golden generation of your country. But we see how average France were in the six-nations without Dupoint . I have no doubt that they all Blackwater won the World Cup if Richie McCaw was not there. They won the World Cup final without Dan Carter. Richie McCaw was boy in every game when they dominated rugby and went on an 18-game winning streak but the team's quality didn't suddenly drop because him or Dan Carter were absent. But we saw on the six-nations that’s friends are a very average team without Dupont. Impact on team is far greater than that of Dan Carter or McCaw.
@@EggchasersRugby you did, but I think it really needs to be heavily emphasised and explained in detail because this argument is being used to completely undermine his achievements and it’s a completely bogus argument, it makes absolutely no logical sense and that is why I am expanding on your point, that the achievements of a team collectively are given more importance when it comes to the greatest debate than the individual stats of players.
Let’s not act like France aren’t extremely talented they have more depth then almost every other nation right now with a club competition that’s flourishing if they can’t perform without DuPont then they need to take a serious look at themselves
Exactly. And let's not talk about what happened in the French rugby 7s team and how his sole presence completely transformed this team and its results....and all of this in a rugby version he discovered just few months ago.
@@natedogg8775it's not only about the players, you are forgetting the level of coaching and there, it's absolutely undeniable that the level of French coaching lags way behind the level of coaching in NZ or SA
Great video Tim! I feel like the GOAT conversation could branch out into GOATs in particular areas of the game given the differences in each position on a rugby field. Everyone says Smith the GOAT of passing, PSDT the GOAT of tackling, etc
I am with you on this. I share the same feelings. Rugby is a team sport. I think GOAT sentiments are unnecessary in team sports. And more than anything, GOAT 🐐 debates are highly subjective, they are and will always be unresolved debates. I prefer best player of the year or moment to recognize a player that stands out.
Great bullet points on your video, and I do agree with you, he is in the conversation. But there is somethings you forgot : he runs almost as a wing (look at his performance on the Olympics final) , kick as long as a 10 (one of the longest and most accurate), defend as a forward ( champions cup final), has the brain of a 9 (in all his games) ; adapts his game very quickly ( from 15 to 7 in 6 months). And by the way is he as good with his left hand and leg than the right ones. And he has an incredible stamina. Which other player can tick all these boxes ? From now and before.I think we will realize he is the best ever. (And of course I hope he will bring back the World Cup in France next time).
What is extraordinary with Antoine Dupont and never seen before is i really think he could play in ANY position on the pitch and still perform... The guy is a great defender, is powerful, surely can kick, can run, is mighty creative... Maybe he's a little too short for a 2nd row... lol You can't say the same thing about a lot of players...
Very interesting topic, I was having this conversation with my friends and they all say you need to win a World Cup to qualify and I don’t agree with that. For me DuPont is in the discussion without a doubt and is definitely in the top 5.
Os Du Randt Fitzpatrick THP? Etzebeth Johnson PSDT McCaw Shelford Dupont Carter Lomu Gerber Sella Habana Blanco Tighthead is one I am stumped on. And i'd probably change my mind a bunch of times on the others too.
I will just add, if being the greatest means talent, then yes he is very talented. I do not consider him the goat at all. You would have to compare him with other scrum halves. I was scared of Aaron Smith in his prime and I adored Fourie du Preez. The All Blacks were scared of Fourie. That is how you determine a GOAT. And none of the above went crying on global television after losing a quarter final whilst blaming the ref. And to this day he suffered no consequences for his outburst whatsoever. All animals are indeed not equal. You should also be aware that precisely BECAUSE he came back to play in that quarter final, it put SA in a very very difficult situation. Nobody would dare tackle him because he is so short and the world would have lost their heads. We were painted in a corner really making him look much better than what he really is. He should ask Jordie Barrett what it feels like to be tackled by Pieter Steph constantly. But that was totally off the table because of his injury. It's the entitlement really that is nauseating.
Recency bias is killing you. Daniel Carter was absolutely special and its the reason why he was even the example you used. We all watched Dan and to this day we still speak about him. I think Antoine might squeeze into the top 3 and even then I am not there yet. I am a Sprinngbok South African fan speaking like this 🇿🇦
@@EggchasersRugby No no I wasn't insulting you I am sorry. I think the "you" made it direct and that was not the point. Even on X there is a debate on Antoine and was coming from there. I phrased wrong. My apologies again.
I don't know when we talk about Antoine Dupont if physical abilities are the first things to take into account? The effect he has on his teammates, the boost in morale he gives them, is fabulous enough to be a category in its own right. Beyond the man, there is morale and will.
Clearly doesn’t boost his teammates enough to get past the springboks in a home playoff. Dupont is great, but he got outclassed by both Reinach and Smith in the same comp. Dupont performs well when he isn’t playing against teams and opposing 9s of equal or greater ability.
@@kekemamoe3106 The Bocks win when they poison the All Blacks or when they corrupt the referees, never has a team been so far removed from the values of rugby.
He's certainly the best because of his vision, his explosivity, his queek eyes, his intelligence, his technicity, his hability... he's able to play himself excellent but he make his partners full better.... for me he's on the top of rugby pantheon near Gareth edwards ; just one inconvenient : he's french...😉
One of the most important requirements for being labeled the greatest of all time in any field is that the recognition should be unanimous. So, until then, I agree he is in the running, but not quite there yet.
So who is? The only candidate I see mostly referenced is Jonah Lomu. who, to be honest was a 1-trick pony who quickly found defending teams setup to stop him. I recall South Africa were first (but happy to be corrected) and this pretty much nullified him as a threat... In the spirit of this channel this is only meant in the context of the GOAT discussion - obviously what happened to his health was terrible and I feel for him, his family, loved ones, nation and the sport of rugby as a whole at his early loss...
I think we're looking at it with rose tinted glasses. In a year we might be looking at is from a different perspective. Also just just going on tournaments and winning tournaments, the goat is Bakkies Botha.... See how fast that argument falls flat. Also as you said, you can't judge a player against other positions. In my opinion he is the scrumhalf goat, but not the rugby goat.
Bakkies Botha is the most decorated rugby player of all time, he has won every event he has taken part in from highschool league cups to the world cup, he has won it all. But no one will even think of putting him in the goat debate, and never will I.
Great podcast once again Tim so logical we'll argued and unbiased. Don't forget people like JPR WILLIAMS, BARRY JOHN DAVID CAMPESE. SO DIFFICULT WHEN THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OUTSTANDING. G PLAYERS. ONE I WILL NEVER Forget and now I'm showing my age and nationality is HO DEVILLIERS who I believe changed full back play
I'm South African, Tom Brady of the NFL is a GOAT because of his longetivity, amount of SuperBowl wins and he has a great story. For me personally, Dupont is at the moment in the Greatest 23 of All time (@ eggchasersrugby). The greatest 23 of All time is perhaps a good video idea. Objectives to be the greatest: *longetivity Johhny Wilkinson/ Sexton * international Caps Richie Mccaw or Gethin Jenkins *Trophies for example Daniel Carter *What was their influence on the sport or team for example Jonah Lomu , Alun Wyn Jones The greatest individual player would need to be able to cover everything on the pitch (scrum,ruck, kick goals, pass, offload etc.)
I’ve watched Dan Carter and everyone else. Du Pont is without a doubt the goat, I’ve never seen a player have such an outrageous impact and being so well rounded.
😂😂😂😂this guy is far behind the GOAT conversation, let see him win the World Cups and play at the highest level for 8years consistently performance wise...you can't call someo😢a GOAT in a period of 18months
I just feel lucky that I’ll get to watch Dupont for another few years, so exhilarating. The only one I got to regularly live was O’Driscoll. From his breakout till about 2005 you could feel the stadium collectively skip a heartbeat anytime the ball came near him. I wonder how watching Jonah in the flesh would have been. Lucky Welsh fans 😂
I'd politely suggest watching the video before commenting 😆 as there's a fair bit of (misplaced) anger oddly. Trying to bring some reason to a discussion which gets people hyperbolic...I tried anyway.
Lol you should have known this would happen. Too much passion from all parts of the world aaaand to many unbelievably good players to compare with. Unfortunately this is a question one cannot ever answer
Agree we’ll never get to an objective conclusion as the greats like Antoine DuPont are only as good as the teams around them.
@@EggchasersRugby Ur classroom is a mess :)
@@peristyle24 hahaha. I used to be a teacher as well!
I have to disagree with you,he doesn't deserve to be in the GOAT conversation let's not get caught in the moment,the likes of Richie McCaw,Dan Carter,PSDT,Brian Habana,Siya Kolisi...let me just say Springboks and New Zealand players have been consistently playing at the GOAT level for a period of over 8years,you can't GOAT du Pont over 18months
Dan Carter in my opinion
5x NPC champion, Ranfurly Shield
3x Super Rugby Champ
2x Top14 champ
1x Top League Champ,
9x Rugby Championship trophy
1x British and Irish Lions series victory
3x home nation grand slam tours
3x Player of the Year
2x RWC titles
All time leading point scorer in both Super Rugby and International
112 test for 99 wins 1 draw and 12 losses
Quite the CV that!
@@EggchasersRugbyand piss load of points.
Lots of comments about how skilled DuPont is, unmatched vision…some of the tries Beauden Barrett either set up or scored are equal to anything I’ve seen from DuPont. Oh and imagine how good Barrett would have been at sevens in his prime.
As a Saffa and bok fan, I whole heartedly agree. Knowing Carter was going to be on the field made any other teams fans nervous. Dupont is awesome but southern hemisphere teams don't fear him. He's never even played here.
100% CORRECT
Dupont is just amazing, lets just enjoy the moment
Overrated
Nawt
When the rest of the team does nadda you can make anyone look good
He’s good , but not a GOAT
Some people forget Fourie Du Preez and even Joost van der Westhuizen for the Springboks.
@@riaansnyman8747yes its not a goat its the goat
There is no such thing. Every generation produces someone special. At 69 years old, I have seen many such players. Gareth Edward, David Duckham, Serge Blanco, Naas Botha, Danie Gerber, Andy Irvine, Willie John McBride, Sean Fitzpatrick, Jonah Lomu, Gavin Hastings, Cheslin Kolbe and the list goes on. All these players were only as good as their team-mates. Appreciate the game not just individuals, for without a team you are nothing!
I feel like sometimes there is such a thing as a goat like Gretzky in hockey. I don’t think anyone could argue he’s not the greatest. It’s just very hard to debate in rugby because every position is so different but also crucial in its own right.
@@spheanniks8131 Exactly right. Gretzky was so far ahead of everyone else that there is no debate. In rugby., there are a lot of players in different positions and different eras who were, or are great, but saying someone was the greatest boils down to personal preference.
This comment !
@@fredlenz4743 But the Best rugby sevens player with skills, speed with fitness some players only dream off goes to Mr Jerry Tuwai GOAT 🐐 OF SEVENS no argument there
Hugo Porta and Danie Gerber were my favorite players to watch in the 80's. They were simply different than the rest.
Agree. As Bok supporter, Porta is the best 10 I've seen. Put him in the teams Carter and Bennet and Botha and Wilkenson had, and it would've been NO contest.
Hello, I'm french and an early supporter of Antoine (before he turned 18yo). I share your questionning. As you do, I consider he is currently the best rugby player in the world. If you listen all his interviews he always valuate the team not himself (as he perfectly knows rugby is a collective game). I can say he doesn't consider himself as the greatest player of all time but he works hard to have a chance to become one of the GOAT ! He is full of humility, a hard worker, smart, a leader and a gifted player. Wish him to improve till he stops and can be considered as one of the greatest. Kind regards. Didier
I thought that Ardie Savea was the current World Player of the Year?
Has he ever been world player of the year?
Completely agree with all the caveats and points you make in this very well-reasoned and balanced assessment; as you say we should already be grateful to be around to watch and enjoy this phenomenal player. Personally, I have never witnessed something equivalent in all my ( long ) rugby years. Thank you for this enlightening video and your passion for the game
I'm with you.
I'd say Richie McCaw. 148 tests, captaining 111, winning 98. 2 x World Cups, Lions series winner as captain, 10 superrugby titles. Career spanning 14 years. His impact on the game over that span is unmatched. He was a standout amongst standouts. From a Springbok supporter.
Better than duPont
McCaw has no lions series
@@FareedLoyiso Neither does Du Pont.😄
@@jandregerber7534 kolisi is greater than McCaw and last battle between Faf vs du Pont who won it ? It was Faf with a gold medal case closed
@@FareedLoyisoYes he does. 3-0 in 2005. They didn't just win they thrashed them.
He's the Gareth Edwards of the modern game & rightly should be rejoiced as a joy to watch
Hard agree on that!
Dupont has to get a RWC for France to be up with the GOATS. France are due to win the world cup. There's a difference between Best and GOAT.
Best is actual abilities and skills while playing - Greatest is achievements over career.
@kelbatt7729 so Lomu is not in the GOAT discussion too...
@@kelbatt7729 he just explained to you why wc isnt always relevant. Lets say du pont plays 8 more years and wins world player of the year every year for 8 years but no wc... is he not the goat?
In the Carter v Dupont debate, I liken it to the Federer v Nadal/Djokovic debates. Carter was the artist, so unbelievably stylish in his kicking, his passing, his character. Dupont is just relentless, powerful etc. I personally will always prefer the artistry. Hence Carter, Federer, Brian Lara, Messi being my favourites of their respective sports.
love that comparison
Wish I could give you 10x thumbsup for that
Perfect. Fully agree with this and the choices too.
The thing is that adding to everything you listed, Dupont IS also an artistry.
Some of the tries/assists/plays he regularly produces are just pure magic and have nothing to do with pure power or relentlessness
Carter played in a dominant all black side, with a scrum always on the front foot, Dupont is the difference in most games he plays in, Carter is alamazing I don't doubt that the way he dominated the lions in 05 but did little when he came to perpingnon, also changing codes and dominating has to elevate Dupont among many others
Dan Carter all day. From a Boks fan.
Hard to argue. He was unreal talent.
A s a Saffa it’s difficult to agree but you’re right. Carter is a legend. Gerber comes close.
Yep
Only two players have been 3x World Player of the Year. Both won the World Cup twice. One is the all time top point scorer, the other is the most successful captain and third most capped player of all time. It’s got to be either Carter or McCaw.
Dan Carter about Dupont winning Olympic gold: “It’s been incredible. Not many people will realise that since rugby 7s became an Olympic sport the game has really turned with these professional athletes,” the All Blacks legend told Discovery+. “Rugby 7s and rugby XVs, they’re two different sports and a lot of players have tried to cross over and really struggled. “I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is to go from XVs to 7s, so for Dupont to be able to do that seamlessly and have success immediately, it just goes to show what an incredible athlete he is. “I’m sure he’s still learning and adjusting to the game but you wouldn’t know when you go and watch him. “There’s been a couple of key moments when the French team needed him where he stepped up and scored incredible tries. His ability to come on at the end of the game and open it up, he’s a freak.”
I'm a 58 yr old SAFFA and proud Springbok supporter and it boggles my mind how quickly people forget the hero's of yesteryear?
For me Jonah Lomu will *ALWAYS* stand out!
Danie Gerber - Jonny Wilkinson - David Campese and Willie John McBride have *ALL* excelled respectively!
No Irish, no Scottish and no French ? and what's more, you forgot two of the best players in Springbok history : Derek Bevan and Ben O'Keeffe
Oh dear you poor baby. @bayamonterenaud8683
Lomu was a fast tank, but no handicap, no kick. So cannot be the best flyhalf ever, but the first star of a New era
Dupont brings a certain completeness and intelligence to the game that no other player has ever brought. He's a pure 9, but could arguably play anywhere in the back. He's physical, clever, fast, has got hands and (both) feet, is a leader who also plays to make his teammates' performances better, and the guy is incredibly humble both on and off the pitch. None of the aforementioned players had all this. Again, maybe the only thing he's missing is indeed a world cup.
@@kurtz7221Dupont has never won a test match outside of the northern hemisphere. He has never even toured South. The only completeness to his game is how he completely avoids getting on an airplane
Recency bias is always a problem in the GOAT debate. Hard not to be a prisoner of the moment but need to step back. As always your points are well articulated.
As an all rounder, he has to be the best I’ve seen 95-present. The guy can break tackles with strength, perfect passing, strong fend, kicks 50-22 at the base of a ruck woth both feet, electric steps and speed, tackles like a 7 (remember him holding Mack Hensen on his own try line), can manage a game like an international 10, cross kick passing (of both feet once again), won more turnovers than the whole Leinster pack combined (basically the pack of the Irish team who just won a game in SA) in a European Cup final (while slotting 2 50-22 in that same game). He actually finished 2nd for more turnovers won in this year’s Champion’s Cup (he plays 9 !!) while also finishing 1st or 2nd for most line breaks, defenders beaten and meters made. And a lot of Safa play and have played in that competition, without ever coming close to those stats (or any player from any nationality and any era tbh)
Without him, France hadn’t win a 7 tournament since 2005. He came in and they won in LA, WC final in Madrid and now won the Olympics against an undefeated Olympic Fijian team after a final that he single handily changed.
His only flow is to have lost a game by 1pt against the best pack in the world while rushing to be back in shape 3 weeks after breaking his cheekbone (and still had an amazing game). I’ve never seen a player like him, never. DC didn’t have his defensive nor jackling ability, Joost or Foorie his kicking game, AS his running lines or strength, Lomu his skills and vision… He’s just the best, most complete player I’ve ever seen, and he’s only 27 (at that age Richie and DC had just lost a 1/4 final to France in 2007 remember ?).
We are just witnessing the Messi of rugby, wait a few years and we will all be looking back asking ourselves how we could have doubted that he was the GOAT. Frankly I just don’t get what people need. NZ and SA are the greatest rugby nation, doesn’t change the fact that he’s better than any player sho came out of those countries. 9+9 > 10+7
@@08padam Pound for pound, Dupont is right up there. Punches way above his weight in the physical exchanges too.
Christian Cullen the best running back ive seen in the past 30 years. There are lengthy RUclips videos of him scoring GREAT tries. Performed consistently at all levels and gave us bokke many sleepless nights.
Amazing talent. As much as I fully appreciate all the nuanced skills required by different positions, attacking skills are the making of so many of the greats. Something special about those players with rare and incredible skills
Yes indeed you just can't teach anyone to run like he did! Looking forward to meeting you at the All Blacks game in Cape Town Tim.
No one cuts through and around player like Cully did… no one has or has since…
Yip. And always there for the offload. This is why he and Danie Gerber scored so many tries. Supporting at full speed champaign rugby.
You have to remember that the paws of rugby were different then,allowing for players like Cullen to run as he did.
As a South African, the GOAT was Lomu. He changed rugby is so many ways. His presence changed defensive structures and strategies forever. Yes he and all players are not perfect but he changed the game completely for the better when he burst on the scene and for that, he must be considered the goat. He made it exciting even when he didn't score. Was incredible to see. Size, speed and presence.
He was almost unstoppable on attack (running over defenders due to his brute strength) but had many flaws otherwise to his game. So no, not for me. Also never scored a try against South Africa.
@nic0072 his defence was a nightmare,so no,lomu lacked what a GOAT needs to be
Lomu is like the Mike Tyson of rugby. The most exciting, and famous, and a force to be reckoned with at his best, but not the greatest.
@@nic0072 Who is the GOAT in your opinion and why?
@@geoffhughes225 Who is the GOAT in your opinion and why?
Completly agree... What a Player !! It s so a pleasure to see...
Great player for sure. You can call him the G.O.A.T. or any of those other great players, as long as the Boks continue winning world cups and lions tours, I don't really care 😃
hahahaha
And don't forget keep losing to 14 man ireland in your own country haha
With the corruption of referees!
with ben okeefe... and somes stéroïds..
The french players in world cup 1995 are still alive.
It makes all the différence.
Great perspectives Tim, as always. And a much more measured tone to a very emotive issue. One thing about Dupont that irks the Southern Hemisphere rugby fans is that his administrators seem almost hellbent on manufacturing his greatness. France do not travel to the South often, and when they do, they don't go to South Africa or New Zealand, arguably the toughest countries in which to win an away game. And Dupont sits the July internationals out anyway.
Until Dupont applies his brilliance in tougher environments and wins the bigger moments - RWC final, All Blacks at Eden Park, Springboks at Loftus - he simply cannot be taken seriously as a GOAT contender.
It's a shame France don't tour properly South. They send young teams because the Top 14 is such a long, arduous season the players need to rest. It's one reason why the Nations Cup idea wont work how World Rugby are hoping.
Let's be real, the main thing that irks Southern Hemisphere fans is people talking about a NH player in a GOAT conversation.
@@EggchasersRugby All seasons are long and hard- get tougher.
@@kelbatt7729it’s a question of the number of games played. I’m sure Tim made a video about it at some point.
I don’t agree. As the evidence suggests, the difference between the top four / five national teams is limited. The champions cup is factually the hardest club competition in the world.
He’s so complete at his position, on all the skills a scrum half needs to have, that he’s surely on of the best player ever. We’re lucky to see him play. What he did on the 7s olympics is really incredible.
I'm Irish. Serge Blanco for me was the best player, Maybe not others would think. But no dought he was definitely the best attacking fullback in the history of rugby union. There are so many positions in rugby with so many great players to choose from.
Blanco was SOME player!
Best attacking fullback. Cullen
I'm french and for me O'Driscoll have no complexe to have in front of Blanco.
But Carter and Dupont are halves, complete, and also have genius, and genius as a reflex.
AT thé Time, i'd Say Carter first. But Antoine loves so to learn, fix, give, play, and, not willing, shine...
And, perhaps, the good point : he's quite a good 10.
But, as a french, i love him in the loose from a bit. Life Can be beautyful, but it remains a defeat. Only defeat can be really beautyful.
Sorry for my english. And sorry not to speak gaelic at all. :)
I would rank Cullen higher, but Blanco was magic and was lucky to see him play live vs Australia in WC 87. ruclips.net/video/ZVN4Sq95BT4/видео.html Was sitting in the middle of a group of French fans very close to where the camera that took this shot was located, but closer to French end.
@@Hotwhiskey1 Oldies, and they're first to Say that, could not stand a half-time of modern rugby. Physically but not only. All the game progressed. Carter had years of advance. No?
South African here. DuPont is some player. He is well on his way to becoming one of the GOATS. I don’t subscribe to one Greatest of all time. You can be the greatest right now but only ONE of the greatests of all time. Great video Tim!
that's a great way of putting it.
malcom marx is one of the greatest fowards ive seen as a kiwi .. am i the only one who sees that?
@@harrymac5229Nah he’s seriously fkn good he’s just had a shit time of it with injuries
@@harrymac5229Honest question: Let's say you could hypothetically swop Marx for someone on the AB team. Who is the best player you would allow to go? Savea? Barrett? Jordan? Telea?
@@randomlyfactual1943 I'd swap taylor imo
This season alone from Dupont is maybe the greatest individual season ever! Best player of the Champions Cup, miles ahead of competition in the knockout stage, destroyed Top14 like we have never seen before from him, and casually masters 7s rugby with one tournament win and the Championship title before getting the gold medal at the Olympic at home ..!! All of that being the main player with the biggest impact.
The bitter loss against SA at home woke up a monster in him. He seems more hungry, more determined, more of a killer since last autumn. The talent - and what a talent! - has always been there.
For me, if he plays like this 4 or 5 seasons more - with one or two 6 Nations titles, and let's not make too much of a deal with the World Cup - he will be the greatest player of all time, he already is the greatest scrum half of all time.
I like THAT conversation. Truly a remarkable season. Not just the titles, but the influence he had on them.
@@EggchasersRugby and he just got much better where he could improve in the last couple of years, making him almost flawless in my opinion ... kicking game is elite, he became a monster in defense, and just showed great, star level leadership this season ! he is doing it all now (even posing as a model and being socially involved in France nom de Dieu!!), it's insane ...
The world cup is the biggest deal that is why, it's called the world cup 😂 great great player but come on now he can't be the greatest if he can't win the world cup his playing in the one of if not the greatest French side ever not some minnow team who has no right to win a world cup.
@@luffytaro3068 nah making it all about one competition is not right in my opinion ... French international players play up to 40 games per year and it comes down to 4 or 5 games played every 4 years ? No no no ...
For me it's an easy (and stupid, sorry...) way of disqualifying him. He is the greatest rugby player in the world at the moment, since 3 or 4 years, and by far ! He can become the goat if he keeps playing like this in the next years
@@luffytaro3068nobody wins World Cup on his own. Dumb argument!
I fully agree with you. More than wins, it's a player's greatness in big games that counts. Wilkinson's drop-goal with its wrong foot in the RWC final is the epitome of greatness. Lomu's try in the RWC semi-final, that's the epitome of greatness. Great players reveal themselves in great matches.
100%. Hard agree.
Loving all the love for Danie Gerber. Joost was a player who excited like no other over a full completed career. Jonah, Campo, Zinzan, JPR Williams and others.
But I still have no problem with people saying Dupont is the GOAT.
In soccer, there was George Best or Kenny Dalgleish. Not world cup winners but right up there.
But perhaps, with grudging respect (yes, still) I haven't seen a better player in rugby than Richie McCaw.
George Best immediately came to mind when he raised the question - is it a requirement for greatness to be in a champion national team?
Dupont was in the perfect position to win the World Cup. He played in a great team, was the best player in the world, and had the home field advantage. It's hard not to compare this to the great Richie McCaw, who was dealt a similar hand in 2011 but, like a true champion, managed to win the Rugby World Cup. Skill is one thing, but results matter as well.
Hard to beat Ben O'keeffe on the pitch. As any rugby lover could witness on the 2023 WC, the man had an already set mind on whom should overcome.
I wouldn't put him on the same stage as DC (yet).
Carter was almost the perfect 10, for a huge period of time. Most international points ever, 1,598. "That' Lions performance where he scored 33 individual points. But watching him tear his adductor in 2011 and then create the comeback arc for 2015 was incredible. Being the 10 in NZ comes with immense pressure, and he constantly delivered on the world stage. He also holds the world record for the total number of conversions (293) and also total number of penalties (281) in rugby while collating 29 tries along the way. He had pace, a fend of doom and notched up 1 (and a half) world cups.
We have barely seen Dupont play live in the SH, he needs to get some long distance travel under his belt and fight it out in hostile territory more often, like SA and Eden park.
For French players England is hostile territory, Ireland difficult but respectful.
@@jean-pascalesparceil9008 still in Euro though. Get on the long hauls I say
Each Era will have it own greats, it's nearly impossible to compare different generations, as the game is also evolving, so it's played differently across the generations.... fully and agree Tim, A du Pont is up there for sure, his tenacity and grit in the RWC reflects nerves of steel to play in a QF facing a physical team like the BOKS... The man is fearless... great video Tim, real food for thought and entertaining
I watch at least ten rugby vids a day, and a select few, a handful, have made it onto my playlist over the years - this one has made it there. Such a warm, fair, knowledgeable and, most importantly, honorable articulation of a complex opinion of the greatness of a player in a large-team sport.
Dan Carter is the greatest rugby player. He has scored a total of 1,598 test points (29 tries, 293 conversions, 281 penalties, and 8 drop goals) in 112 tests, with an average of 14.27 points a game (the highest average for players who have scored more than 500 Test points).
Excellent point. However if scoring points are the only measure then the 8 forward players in each team is basically excluded from the race.
@@kobusvanrensburg4092 The forwards do all the work and the backs get all the credit.
That is rugby.
Dan Carter about Dupont winning Olympic gold: “It’s been incredible. Not many people will realise that since rugby 7s became an Olympic sport the game has really turned with these professional athletes,” the All Blacks legend told Discovery+. “Rugby 7s and rugby XVs, they’re two different sports and a lot of players have tried to cross over and really struggled. “I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is to go from XVs to 7s, so for Dupont to be able to do that seamlessly and have success immediately, it just goes to show what an incredible athlete he is. “I’m sure he’s still learning and adjusting to the game but you wouldn’t know when you go and watch him. “There’s been a couple of key moments when the French team needed him where he stepped up and scored incredible tries. His ability to come on at the end of the game and open it up, he’s a freak.”
This is indeed a tough cookie to crumble! For me the "greatness" comes from the players' ability to consistently impact on how the game is played. Not simply by being a talented player, but by their ability to create opportunity, be unpredictable, staying inside the laws and also being able to interpret the laws to the benefit of the team game in and game out. Your comments on the top 15 is what I agree with and also your comments that it takes all shapes and sizes to achieve "greatness" within a team sport. Dupont is a hugely exciting and fantastic player, especially in his ability to switch between 7's and union and impact the game in the same exciting way. I do not think it is fair in a team environment to refer to any team member as a GOAT, but rather as one of the most exciting players to have ever stepped on the pitch. Dupont is the only player I can recall that had a law change as a result of his playing style or how he found a loophole in the laws to the benefit of the team he was playing for.
Let's just talk about scrumhalves for now. A player who is hardly mentioned is Joost van der Westhuizen. He scored 38 tries for South Africa, playing most of his games against the All Blacks and rampant Australia. How many did Du Pont score? As another example, did anyone see Sid Going play?
Yet, Fourie du Preez was rated higher by Springboks. 🥇😊
@@hansdedipper2912 Joost's teammates prefer Joost while Fourie's teammates prefer Fourie. But no-one dispute that no scrumhalf scored more tries than Joost
Dupont has not ended his international carreer, he scored 13 tries at XV with Les bleus. I assume you don' t want to count the 7s tries.
You know what Tim, I would agree with all your arguments about criteria for a GOAT. Wonderfully set out.
The best scrum half GOAT of all time is Fourie Du Preez. I would put him right up there with one of the best Rugby Players South Africa ever produced. Joost VD Westuizen was also great. However Fourie could read a game. Most underrated player ever!
Great scrumhalf but did not have the flair of a Du Pont nor Van der Westhuizen (wasn't as quick either). I do reckon he had a better all round game than Joost though.
@@nic0072Joost has 38 tries as a bok. He also played as a wing. How is he not fast?
@@thamimdlamini I said Du Preez was not as fast as Joost or Du Pont but his all round game was better than than that of Joost. Joost was very fast, faster than Du Pont too.
@@nic0072 read that incorrectly… my bad.
Fourie du Preez didn’t just have great skills he had an ability to control a game. The 36-0 demolition of England in the pool match in the 2007 WRC is the ultimate performance by a 9
For me greatness is when a player has the ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck in the moments of intense pressure and do extraordinary things to change the destiny of the game.
I'm 49 year old, I watch Rugby in Stadiums since 1981 grand slam for France and I am Season ticket holder on Stade Toulousain. I never see a rugby player like Antoine Dupont. Most of the guys don't watch this guy in the french league. He's phénomenal most of the time.
I have a lot of respect for many players but for me he's the Goat.
I believe us watching Antoine Dupont now is the exact same situation when we had Ronaldo and Messi in their prime. Phenoms of the game that we just have to enjoy watching when we can
No one mentioning Dani Gerber - an incredible rugby player, but Dupont right up there. Would also throw into the mix Jonah Lomu, Dan Carter, Barry John, Serge Blanco, Christian Cullen, Brian O'Driscoll and then the forwards - Richie McCaw, Colin Meades etc
In a reply to another commenter, I have Gerber in my Greatest XV. Incredible player...and someone who highlights that just picking World Cups or medals might not be the fairest metric. Or at least, other factors come into the equation.
I would like to see him on a tour to New Zealand or South Africa and see how he handles the pressure.
Only games he’s played outside of Europe were at the 2019 WC.
Dear Tim, he is certainly up there but you need to measure this against the Colin Meads, Dan Carter, Richie Macaw, Joost Van der Westhuisen. He has found the space that 7s provides. He has a remarkable talent but let’s keep our feet on the ground.
Watch the video - I'm trying to get everyone's feet on the ground :)
Has to win a world cup to be up with the modern GOATS
He needs to play more games against South Africa and New Zealand. He needs to deal with that pressure and give a man in the match performance in a game there.
Rupeni Caucaunibuca was amazing
What a player!
@@EggchasersRugby so unserious and so gifted, a phenomenon of nature
Another connoisseur I see. Was it the 99 or 03 WC he single handedly demolished Scotland, and I think he also got a yellow card.
Well said. A very strong contender and if he scratches that gold cup, he will be amongst them.
It is a good discussion to have. Dupont is a young GOAT. The old GOATs like Du Preez and Carter are also loved by many. It is OK 😂 we all are activated and talking rugby. Good 👍
@@clibo1 Frik or Fourie? 🤔😂
Fourie seke
@@Kid_Senekal Fourie 🫡
Excellent video as always Tim. I think you're starting to have quite an audience in France since your coverage of the RWC. I couldn't agree more with all your arguments. Very well put ! ;)
A GOAT would know how to get his team across the line in a big quarter final at home against SA.
One swallow doesn't make a summer. Started off with a bang in that match and ended like a wilted flower. Would like to see him behind a losing pack (which actually happened later on in that match).
Good point.
A bit hard to play your best while coming back from a facial fracture!
But as others have said rugby is a team sport and how could ADP stop his team mates doing terrible kicks, one that even went backwards like we’ve never seen before in a rugby game, balls getting ripped off them as per FDK in those final moments and other key players not turning up in that game…yes their bad performance was also due to Bok pressure of course but the French made so many errors that day nothing to do with ADP who was playing with a fractured cheek
the line was called Ben O'Keef
I love it that you called it a debate! That is exactly what this is. I do think you as a individual can be the best even if you don't win a world cup, this is a team sport. It's so difficult in rugby to compare players in different positions. I do strongly believe that it's too early to juge DuPont so early in his career, by the time of the next world cup we may all be talking about how much talent he had, and never made it.... I do not want that, but it might happen. I do think he is brilliant.
A GOAT is someone that comes along once in a 100 years. Someone who you know will never be seen again, the like of him. And indeed there is only one person that meets that criteria in the last 100 years … Jonah Lomu. Herewith endith the debate.
Before Olymp Games, Dupont was world champion (sevens) in Madrid too (and "rookie" of the year 2024).
What you can say is that, Dupont is currently the best scrum half on the planet!
By a massive margin.
I agree, but World Cup victory, no goat status
No, not even close. He is not in the fifty best players in the world and maybe makes the cut in the top 5 of test scrumhalves.
The reason for this is simple: his achievements, while admirable, are all in the lesser arena of club rugby. In test rugby, his CV is not impressive at all. One six nations, two quarter final exits. Team sport, sure, but this is France, who used to dominate the Six Nations.
Then we get to the real nitty gritty: he only has 24 minutes of playing time outside of Europe. He has never won a test match abroad. He has never even played in the intimidating cauldrons of the South. I'm beginning to wonder if the man has ever been inside any sort of aircraft at all.
All in all, based on this career, he is currently a very good club level scrumhalf. In tests, he is dangerous against smaller teams, but an irritation at best against more formidable teams.
@@MaximeGregoire-ry8jg He won in Ireland in 2020. That was the same team who lost to Japan three months before. I wouldn't even bother putting that on a CV. England team before 2023? Yeah sure, that can go. Good! He has one victory away over a Top 4 team away that I can count (if England were in the Top 4 at that stage, that is)
As for beating the Boks and NZ at home, well, yeah. It is an achievement, always. But that is what should be expected from a three time world cup finalist side like France; to beat teams in their own back yard.
I think you would find the amount of SA and NZ legends calling him the best ever are really short in supply. We had much better scrumhalves of our own, who actually played more than 25 minutes overseas.
He is a fantastic club player, I'll give you that. One of the best ever for Toulouse. But that is where his greatness ends.
@@adriangilholm2425 you know how Europe n whites like to glamorise their players over boks double world cup winners
Thanks for being the adult in the room Tim. Much appreciated.
Too many complexities in rugby to identify the GOAT. Winning the Rugby World Cup shouldn't be a criteria. Some rugby greats never won a world cup eg Late Jonah Lomu or even had a chance to play in a world cup, . Great point also about Pieter Steph du Toit and several others who could be in the mix. Its just too complicated for rugby unlike the GOAT in 100m sprint which is obvious
Precisely. My over-riding point is, recognise greatness and enjoy it where it exists.
It would be foolish to believe that a player is not an all time great due to lack of World Cup success .
However If you’re trying to determine a goat you’re comparing all time greats with very little between them in terms of all time ranking so World Cup performance should be taken into account seeing as it’s the biggest stage in the sport.
Unless of course the player is from somewhere like Fiji , Scotland , Samoa etc where you’re at a big disadvantage.
I totally agree, winning a world should be a consideration but not too much weight should be put on it. We have seen and we will see in the future many rugby greats that will never win a world cup by virtue of the Nations they represent. Certainly not in our lifetime anyway
Seen Monsieur Du Pont at Ravenhill this past season .. Just sublime player, he threw at least 8 - 10 no look passes hitting the target every time. Bossed the game . Pleasure to watch him
The Maradona of rugby in the 80's was Danie Gerber from Despatch 🇿🇦 he was simply untouchable.
Again, another eggcellent video. Always level-headed and non-biased. Well done, sir.
We should just talk about the Mount Rushmore of rugby from now, it's too close to pick one
THAT is a brilliant suggestion.
Maybe a Mount Rushmore per position...
@@BoereViking Like that too!
@@EggchasersRugbyhere's another idea for you. The greatest individual performances. You could have a series actually PSTD in the WC Final 2023/Johna Lomu vs Eng 95 quarter final or if we go Provincial Gavin Lawless vs Highlanders 1997 and we can go on and on...
Lots of shouts for Danie Gerber, who from the little I've seen was formidable (in English and French). But has everyone forgotten that Frik du Preez was voted SA player of the 20th century ahead of him? Huge man for his time, and FAST for his size.
I believe his contemporary Colin Meads has his supporters on here already.
Neither had the heft of the 150kg leviathans of today, but both had engines with torque and horsepower.
THE BEST EVER - DANIE GERBER 🙌 He single handedly destroyed his opponents with his incredible strength, speed, endurance and IQ. He was on a complete different level to other players. Greatest center of all time. He would walk into any team today with his eyes closed. GOAT 🙌
What you described could suit Dupont's description. So what makes him better?
@@MU-TH-UR Gerber played flyhalf , centre and wing. He was also the main goalkicker for some of the provinces he played for. Not sure Du Pont would be a world class centre, flyhalf or winger. Most definitely brilliant at scrumhalf. Danie was also much faster than Du Pont and probably stronger. In his last test against the AB's at the age of 34, Gerber still scored 2 tries.
@@nic0072 Duponty can play like a 10 (he played Ten several times)and a loose forward. So that's even. Sure Dupont at ten is far from being the best but I don't rememebr Gerber being labelled as a word class FH either. I don't think either of us is capable of saying wich one of Dany or Antoine is Faster or Stronger. As much as i like D.Gerber i don't see how he tops A.Dupont.
@@MU-TH-UR Gerber played many games at flyhalf and wing at provincial level at a time when provincial rugby was extremely strong in SA. He ended his playing career playing at wing and still ran away from the youngsters.
Great player, with qualities in advance for his time; rugby became officialy professional in August 1995. For me the greatest player of the amateur ers and a is Gareth Edwards, but I have seen few matches with the Springboks in the 80s and early 90s.
A fabulous presentation of the facts. Feel entirely the same: he’s up there (despite my name I’m American and an NFL and rugby fan) and time will tell.
No one can do what Jonah done.
Watch some of his highlights for a reminder ☝🏽☝🏽🙄
What he did for the sport generally adds weight to his argument
He never scored against the Boks. That’s a problem.
I agree with you Tim, let's just enjoy all these phenomenally talented players for who they are and what they've done for the game, without having to rank them.
Dupont is out of this world. Best 9 we've seen and the best player in the world atm but as far as the greatest most gifted player the game has ever seen, for me I feel like Dan Carter is the greatest I've ever seen
Horrid take. DC was insane, best 10 we have seen, but there is no way he is as gifted as Dupont. Antoine is perfect in essentially every facet of the game, IQ, defence, kicking off both feet, jackaling, passing, running, i could go on..
@@PJGFC it’s not a “take”. It’s my opinion you are entitled to yours. “greatest I’ve ever seen”. Ie from my eyes. We all see things differently. And FOR ME Carter is the most gifted rugby player I have seen. I have no problem with anyone saying DuPont is or anyone else at that level. DuPonts all round game is for sure better than a lot or even all players in this conversation. But it’s not just about all round game for me. FOR ME, it’s about the magic flare and vision they bring to the game and in my opinion Carter was it. FOR ME
Dan Carter about Dupont winning Olympic gold: “It’s been incredible. Not many people will realise that since rugby 7s became an Olympic sport the game has really turned with these professional athletes,” the All Blacks legend told Discovery+. “Rugby 7s and rugby XVs, they’re two different sports and a lot of players have tried to cross over and really struggled. “I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is to go from XVs to 7s, so for Dupont to be able to do that seamlessly and have success immediately, it just goes to show what an incredible athlete he is. “I’m sure he’s still learning and adjusting to the game but you wouldn’t know when you go and watch him. “There’s been a couple of key moments when the French team needed him where he stepped up and scored incredible tries. His ability to come on at the end of the game and open it up, he’s a freak.”
@@jean-pascalesparceil9008 yep Carter isn’t lying. Just going from 15s to 7s like he has is insane. I’ve been suprisd at how easily both him and Cory Toole for Australia have seamlessly slotted into playing 7s so quickly.
@@tiekumarkyou're entitled to your opinion but at least, give us arguments to justify it and give us areas where you think DC was better than DuPont and why (other than goalkicking of course as Dupont doesn't goalkick...though he's showed he could do it more than decently against Munster few seasons ago)
It's a privilege to be able to watch a generational player such as him. Hopefully he maintains his form until retirement and then everyone can finally set the debate to rest and acknowledge he is the GOAT.
THE GOAT IS DANIE GERBER.
MARADONA OF RUGBY 🙌🇿🇦
He was untouchable. GOAT 🙌
😂😂😂😂😂😂 WTF ?!
😂😂😂😂
Excellent presentation Tim. Now for best overall player in each National team. All round skills, pound for pound. My pick for SA is Damien DeLende
Antoine Dupont is the AB De Villiers of Rugby. Surely, one of, if not the, most freakishly talented individuals to ever play the game. Overall impact on the game, TBC. Verdict is still out, but he is a contender.
Nice comparison. And agree, freakish abilities.
Finally some sense! Great video Tim
Jonah Lomu was stopped by Joost van der Westhuizen in the 1995 world cup final and South Africa won the RWC.
Stopped by food poisoning
Stopped by the referee again against France
@brianodriscoll2725 No, stopped by the team's stupid decision to eat out in an environment where you have no control over the food quality. They took that risk, and paid the price.
@@icefarrow7959 ALL BLACK BS EXCUSE
@@anothervinnie7413 HA HA HA
Hi from Cape Town. I fully support your analysis.
I'm a Bok supporter and even I think its Dan Carter 🐐
Dan Carter was very good but was he such a good attacker, not so sure. Very smooth operator though, classy.
And I'm an England supporter and think it is Antoine Dupont. Your point caller?
Just my opinion fellas. I respect yours. Respect mine.
There is a reason why Pele and Maradona is still remembered until this day.
From Argentina, Danie Gerber was the best and paved the way for the modern center. He made the opposition look like donkeys.
Met him in 86/87 Durban against NZ Cavaliers. Great player!
Who?
He was something else wasn't he.
Argentinian are not allowed to comment about a french since the bus racist disgrace.
@@ReubenNehikharedurh !
No debate needed. Dan Carter!
I've been watching rugby for over 40 years. I've seen plenty of the greats in that time period. Dupont, for me, is the best player I've ever seen. He always exceeds expectations. No 1 player is as valuable as he is to a side. He has it all.
Dan Carter is 1
Great conversation - Rugby is such a great sport that there cannot be a single GOAT. Too many aspects to consider as you mentioned. Technically there should be 15 GOATs in Rugby. IMHO - Is Antoine one of the best players currently - YES, for sure.
I think people who use the World Cup argument against him are ridiculous because nobody would be talking about Richie McCaw if he was not part of the greatest rugby team in history. He would not have won two World Cups if he was not part of that team. he had a team filled with the greatest players in rugby history and so it was much easier for him to dominate rugby in the time that he did. But you could be the greatest the greatest player ever, but you just happen to be from a country with an average team, so it would be impossible for you to win a World Cup. the reason why Cristiano Ronaldo didn’t win a world cup, despite certainly being in the debate for the greatest given his individual stats, is because he happened to be unlucky that he is Portuguese and not Spanish.
So it is a very unfair way of determining who is the greatest player because a World Cup is won by a team rather than a player and that mostly has to do with the luck of where you were born and that you just happen to be active during the golden generation of your country.
But we see how average France were in the six-nations without Dupoint . I have no doubt that they all Blackwater won the World Cup if Richie McCaw was not there. They won the World Cup final without Dan Carter. Richie McCaw was boy in every game when they dominated rugby and went on an 18-game winning streak but the team's quality didn't suddenly drop because him or Dan Carter were absent. But we saw on the six-nations that’s friends are a very average team without Dupont. Impact on team is far greater than that of Dan Carter or McCaw.
I make this point in the video :)
@@EggchasersRugby you did, but I think it really needs to be heavily emphasised and explained in detail because this argument is being used to completely undermine his achievements and it’s a completely bogus argument, it makes absolutely no logical sense and that is why I am expanding on your point, that the achievements of a team collectively are given more importance when it comes to the greatest debate than the individual stats of players.
Let’s not act like France aren’t extremely talented they have more depth then almost every other nation right now with a club competition that’s flourishing if they can’t perform without DuPont then they need to take a serious look at themselves
Exactly.
And let's not talk about what happened in the French rugby 7s team and how his sole presence completely transformed this team and its results....and all of this in a rugby version he discovered just few months ago.
@@natedogg8775it's not only about the players, you are forgetting the level of coaching and there, it's absolutely undeniable that the level of French coaching lags way behind the level of coaching in NZ or SA
Great video Tim! I feel like the GOAT conversation could branch out into GOATs in particular areas of the game given the differences in each position on a rugby field. Everyone says Smith the GOAT of passing, PSDT the GOAT of tackling, etc
I'm Argentine but the GOAT is Dani Gerber from South Africa
Une chèvre qui gerbe ? Beurck !
I am with you on this. I share the same feelings. Rugby is a team sport. I think GOAT sentiments are unnecessary in team sports. And more than anything, GOAT 🐐 debates are highly subjective, they are and will always be unresolved debates.
I prefer best player of the year or moment to recognize a player that stands out.
MY TOP 10
1. Dani Gerber
2. Dan Carter
3. Fourie du preez
4. Lomu
5. Joost
6. McCaw
7. Wilkinson
8. O driscoll
9. B. Barret
10. PSDT
some GREAT names on that list
Great bullet points on your video, and I do agree with you, he is in the conversation. But there is somethings you forgot : he runs almost as a wing (look at his performance on the Olympics final) , kick as long as a 10 (one of the longest and most accurate), defend as a forward ( champions cup final), has the brain of a 9 (in all his games) ; adapts his game very quickly ( from 15 to 7 in 6 months). And by the way is he as good with his left hand and leg than the right ones. And he has an incredible stamina. Which other player can tick all these boxes ? From now and before.I think we will realize he is the best ever. (And of course I hope he will bring back the World Cup in France next time).
What is extraordinary with Antoine Dupont and never seen before is i really think he could play in ANY position on the pitch and still perform... The guy is a great defender, is powerful, surely can kick, can run, is mighty creative... Maybe he's a little too short for a 2nd row... lol You can't say the same thing about a lot of players...
Not quick enough to play test rugby in any position in my view. He is a great scrumhalf though.
@@nic0072 lol. Dupont - slow and bang average. Hot takes from RUclips.
@@nic0072lol ask fidjian flyers if he is not fast
Very interesting topic, I was having this conversation with my friends and they all say you need to win a World Cup to qualify and I don’t agree with that. For me DuPont is in the discussion without a doubt and is definitely in the top 5.
Nobody has mentioned Dani Gerber
BIG fan of his. In a reply to another commenter he makes my Greatest XV at centre
Literally every other comment is “Dani Gerber”
@@06alepea1 Lol I know.
I would love a video covering the three greatest players in each position.
Danie Gerber first, daylight second.
haha. SOME player!
Great video! Good chat to have with my mates at the pub!! I agree with all your points!!! Fun exercise!; who would be in your GOAT 15!!?
Os Du Randt
Fitzpatrick
THP?
Etzebeth
Johnson
PSDT
McCaw
Shelford
Dupont
Carter
Lomu
Gerber
Sella
Habana
Blanco
Tighthead is one I am stumped on. And i'd probably change my mind a bunch of times on the others too.
j'ai 53 ans et c'est le plus grand joueur que j' ai vu.
C'est un des plus grands, on fera le bilan plus tard je crois.
Wilkinson était très fort aussi
I will just add, if being the greatest means talent, then yes he is very talented. I do not consider him the goat at all. You would have to compare him with other scrum halves. I was scared of Aaron Smith in his prime and I adored Fourie du Preez. The All Blacks were scared of Fourie. That is how you determine a GOAT. And none of the above went crying on global television after losing a quarter final whilst blaming the ref. And to this day he suffered no consequences for his outburst whatsoever. All animals are indeed not equal. You should also be aware that precisely BECAUSE he came back to play in that quarter final, it put SA in a very very difficult situation. Nobody would dare tackle him because he is so short and the world would have lost their heads. We were painted in a corner really making him look much better than what he really is. He should ask Jordie Barrett what it feels like to be tackled by Pieter Steph constantly. But that was totally off the table because of his injury. It's the entitlement really that is nauseating.
Recency bias is killing you. Daniel Carter was absolutely special and its the reason why he was even the example you used. We all watched Dan and to this day we still speak about him. I think Antoine might squeeze into the top 3 and even then I am not there yet. I am a Sprinngbok South African fan speaking like this 🇿🇦
Hi there. Did you watch the video? I don't claim anything beyond he is a great player. And mention about 20 other great players in the video :)
@@EggchasersRugby No no I wasn't insulting you I am sorry. I think the "you" made it direct and that was not the point. Even on X there is a debate on Antoine and was coming from there. I phrased wrong. My apologies again.
@@majormza No drama. I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment!
I don't know when we talk about Antoine Dupont if physical abilities are the first things to take into account? The effect he has on his teammates, the boost in morale he gives them, is fabulous enough to be a category in its own right. Beyond the man, there is morale and will.
Clearly doesn’t boost his teammates enough to get past the springboks in a home playoff. Dupont is great, but he got outclassed by both Reinach and Smith in the same comp. Dupont performs well when he isn’t playing against teams and opposing 9s of equal or greater ability.
@@kekemamoe3106 The Bocks win when they poison the All Blacks or when they corrupt the referees, never has a team been so far removed from the values of rugby.
The greatest was Danie Gerber. No one will ever reach his abilities
Different time Different circumstances. Danie Gerber. Maybe ,maybe not
He's certainly the best because of his vision, his explosivity, his queek eyes, his intelligence, his technicity, his hability... he's able to play himself excellent but he make his partners full better.... for me he's on the top of rugby pantheon near Gareth edwards ; just one inconvenient : he's french...😉
One of the most important requirements for being labeled the greatest of all time in any field is that the recognition should be unanimous. So, until then, I agree he is in the running, but not quite there yet.
So who is? The only candidate I see mostly referenced is Jonah Lomu. who, to be honest was a 1-trick pony who quickly found defending teams setup to stop him. I recall South Africa were first (but happy to be corrected) and this pretty much nullified him as a threat... In the spirit of this channel this is only meant in the context of the GOAT discussion - obviously what happened to his health was terrible and I feel for him, his family, loved ones, nation and the sport of rugby as a whole at his early loss...
@@neilbathe7752 Richie McCaw
I think we're looking at it with rose tinted glasses. In a year we might be looking at is from a different perspective.
Also just just going on tournaments and winning tournaments, the goat is Bakkies Botha.... See how fast that argument falls flat.
Also as you said, you can't judge a player against other positions.
In my opinion he is the scrumhalf goat, but not the rugby goat.
Bakkies Botha is the most decorated rugby player of all time, he has won every event he has taken part in from highschool league cups to the world cup, he has won it all. But no one will even think of putting him in the goat debate, and never will I.
Danie Gerber is the greatest of all time
Totally agree. He was incredible in 80's. The best center ever. No doubt
He made the other players look like school kids. Definitely the best ever
@@DarioOle-tp5tp you did he play in the 80’s?!
@@MarioGarcia-bf6mf Tim Horan is laughing at you.
And Philippe SELLA to.
Great podcast once again Tim so logical we'll argued and unbiased. Don't forget people like JPR WILLIAMS, BARRY JOHN DAVID CAMPESE. SO DIFFICULT WHEN THERE HAVE BEEN SO
MANY OUTSTANDING. G PLAYERS. ONE I WILL NEVER Forget and now I'm showing my age and nationality is HO DEVILLIERS who I believe changed full back play
The "never won a World Cup" argument is nonsense, Dupont's rival for the #9 shirt in an all time XV never played in a WC !
I'm glad to see someone else remembers Ken Catchpole 😜
I'm South African, Tom Brady of the NFL is a GOAT because of his longetivity, amount of SuperBowl wins and he has a great story.
For me personally, Dupont is at the moment in the Greatest 23 of All time (@ eggchasersrugby).
The greatest 23 of All time is perhaps a good video idea.
Objectives to be the greatest:
*longetivity Johhny Wilkinson/ Sexton
* international Caps Richie Mccaw or Gethin Jenkins
*Trophies for example Daniel Carter
*What was their influence on the sport or team for example Jonah Lomu , Alun Wyn Jones
The greatest individual player would need to be able to cover everything on the pitch (scrum,ruck, kick goals, pass, offload etc.)
I’ve watched Dan Carter and everyone else. Du Pont is without a doubt the goat, I’ve never seen a player have such an outrageous impact and being so well rounded.
0-RWC
Lomu
😂😂😂😂this guy is far behind the GOAT conversation, let see him win the World Cups and play at the highest level for 8years consistently performance wise...you can't call someo😢a GOAT in a period of 18months
I've been watching rugby for over 4 decades and I agree with you. Dupont is out on his own.
Ja he is quite fat for a scrummy, you have one point...
I just feel lucky that I’ll get to watch Dupont for another few years, so exhilarating. The only one I got to regularly live was O’Driscoll. From his breakout till about 2005 you could feel the stadium collectively skip a heartbeat anytime the ball came near him. I wonder how watching Jonah in the flesh would have been. Lucky Welsh fans 😂