6-0 vs 4-10. I think Lebron going to 8 consecutive finals is amazing and he don't get enough credit. Whenever he left a team they when from finalist to lottery. Lebron one of my favorites. Michael the greatest!
The fact that no one mentions that there is TONS of evidence Lebron takes illegal Ped's and even the DEA proves Ped's were purchased in his wife's name is annoying. We have to look at every aspect if you want to be fair. Lebron is juiced up.
@@KW_SPORTS_WWWAll of those players with rings than MJ weren’t elite on both ends of the ball, weren’t even the best on their teams, or were just a role player like Robert Harry’s case.
@rockysalvatore435 Just call them what they are, fanboys. Jordan fans are the worst. They love to indoctrinate others into believing the hype to where even people that never seen him play are calling him the goat. 🙄
@@littlebillyjoejimbob I just don't understand why people say Kobe shouldn't be in the GOAT debate when LeBron is! Even at most basic level, Kobe has 5 rings(threepeat and repeat) LeBron has just 3,5 rings with countless superteams and even longer career than Kobe
@@BeerAndJointsAllDay so Bill Russell is your GOAT then. 11 rings in 13 years and an 8-peat. If you say anything to dump on Russell then you only prove that you don't believe in your own logic.
Problem is most stans say same thing over and over no matter how many times it's been countered. Curry and lbj fans ignore criticism and just spam muh hater.
Most arguments are already out there. Best way to counter in an argument is to be a step ahead. If you’re not bringing anything that hasn’t been said before, then you’re failing at the fundamental basis of arguing.
I made a simple statement last week on Reddit about the assets the Nets sent Houston for James Harden and it devolved into people denigrating Harden, Kyrie and KD. We cant have intelligent discussions about hoops anymore at all 😢😢
Regarding the Rockets-Nets trade, It was a bad trade for Brooklyn. They lost an excellent center & depth. Harden was entering free agency in the following summer. He left OKC before and asked out of Houston midway into the season. It was dumb to put all hopes on a guy who wasn't committed to his previous teams, especially since the team was already very deep without him
Dikembe Motumbo stepping up to help AI in 2001. The man won a dpoy and people act like AI was playing 1v5. not that AI had any real offensive talent on his team other than himself. BUT just because he didnt have a bunch of offensive juggernauts dosnt mean he didnt have a bunch of really good defnders either. They had the 5th best defense that season. Dikembe was integral to that team. AI was the offensive engine and Dikembe was the defensive engine.
Great example. People don’t talk about the masterpiece game from Dikembe in Game 7 of the ECF against the Bucks. 23 points, 19 boards, and 7 blocks. Fantastic performance
I like Mt. Mutumbo, but he was never an offensive threat, not to mention that as McKie was the 2nd leading scorer and he was their 6th man and 6th man of the year. Regardless of what anyone says, Iverson and LeBron did take the worst 2 teams ever to the finals. It just becomes annoying when LeBron fans try to act like he ALWAYS dragged his teams there, when in actuality that was the only time
@@mrshanny82 Defense took that 76ers to the finals, same with the 04 Pistons that lacked an offensive star. Iverson was the main offensive weapon, but looking at that ECF, it was clear the 76ers's defense anchored by Mutombo and Larry Brown won them the series. Iverson shot 34.4% from the field and they were going up against a trio of Cassell, Ray Allen and Glen Robinson. The 07 Cavs was an amazing defensive team, unlike the 2018 team.
@davidschmidt1793 yes, but they were up against an unstoppable force in Shaquille O'Neal and a budding star in Kobe Bryant. Their defense wasn't going to be enough to stop them all game long. Also, the pistol had balanced scoring with the exception of big Ben
@@davidschmidt1793 Rasheed Wallace was one of the best PF in the game in Portland. Led them to 2 WCFs. Top 4 PF in the early 2000s. Rip was a Great Value Ray Allen. Chauncey's nickname was Mr Big Shot.
The worst part about the goat debate is that there is a debate and fuss about it, just enjoy the greatness you are witnessing, appreciate and respect the past, embrace the present and future There have been so many great players, there are currently so many greats among us and there will be many more
The "help" debate is muddied by the fact that truly great players are able to make those around them better, either by pushing them hard, diverting the attention of the defenders, facilitating them, or all of the above. It's hard to know how good certain players would've been without a great player pushing them to their own greatness.
@@younglove3362correct, but it makes it easier to discern how much impact they had. Kobe Bryant dragging those ass Lakers to the playoffs was incredible in 2007, should have been evidence enough. More impressive than when he dragged DNP Steve Nash and Dwight Howard's sorry ass to the playoffs on a ruptured Achilles.
@@sidjones16Iggy clamped LJ. He's was the literal difference while curry was flopping w Delly and still couldn't get open despite all the moving screens. You curry fans need to stop getting sensitive.
@@sidjones16lbj clearly best player by mile in series. Not even close. 3x value of curry. Curry was useless. Iggy comes in and completely dampens LBJ. That's why he's MVP. By far he was most valuable to GS lol
Everyone says Jokic and Giannis won their championships alone. They dont acknowledge Jamal Murray and Khris Middleton respectively. Calling them outright bums cos they got injured again
@@MarkLaw13 Probably the one area where I think Skap Attack is being an asshole for no reason. I'd rather have Jamal Murray on my team in the playoffs than a majority of the so called "All Stars" in the NBA simply because come playoff time, Murray delivers. Dude hit two game winning shots in the same series against two of the best players in the league......that's not a bum.
Somehow this “teammate effect” is hardly ever mentioned when talking about Magic or Kareem. It’s as if they never played together. There’s no pulling down one, or pushing up another-type of effect. It’s just odd.
No one mentions them in the greatest of all time debate. The media started this when they had no one to really market after Jordan's two retirements. You'll notice it's primarily the networks that spent billions to broadcast the NBA.
Or curry or lebron or Gianni's. Gianni's is muh 2 way demigod w dpoy runner-up Brook. Jrue leaves and both look like giraffes on skates and defense plummets. LMAO. Timmy was taxed properly but as time passes ppl act like Manu and Tony were just role players lol.
@@sidjones16 Kareem is mentioned in the GOAT debate. And even if you don’t consider that aspect of it. People mention Pip. Is he legitimately in the GOAT debate? Even someone like Stockton gets flak for playing with Karl “PDF” Malone, and neither one of them is in the GOAT debate. This is a moot point.
In Game 2 of 2011 finals. Mavs went down 15 points. Jet Terry was pissed cause the Heat celebrated in front of his bench. He actually did some chirping to LBJ and Wade. Jet immediately went 4 for 4 and cut the lead to 7. Dirk got credit for closing the game cause he scored the Mavs last 9 points . But Terry made that happen. He elevated Dirk to close out the game
Terry who was a bench player 6 inches shorter than LeBron helped shut him down and win the Finals against the Miami super team that had 3 of the top 10 players in the league at that time.
@@ramonramirez3761Terry had almost nothing to do with "shutting LeBron down". That credit belongs mostly to Shawn Marion (his primary defender), Jason Kidd (his primary defender when Marion sat), and Tyson Chandler (rim protection and help defense was huge in that series). The whole team does deserve some credit though for perfectly executing their gameplan of shrinking the court and forcing Bron to kick it out - similar "build a wall" type strategy to what the Raptors did against Giannis. That's why Miami went out and got a bunch of shooters to help them win the next 2 titles so that teams couldn't do that anymore
@@nolanrussell6326 stop making excuses for Lebum , did you watch the games ? Why did Terry and J.J. Barrera out scored him!!! It was not Shawn Marion and Jason kidd that shut him down it was JJ who is 6'2 come on stop your nonsense!!! And Terry who is 6'3 ...Non of those guys are Defense players of the year or even 1st team defense players!!!
While I agree with every word you said to me the most annoying thing about the GOAT debate is the denigrating way people talk about the opposing side. For some reason people can't be great unless it's their GOAT. That's why I don't participate in it anymore
@@rockysalvatore435As someone from the left in politics, the right on average seems way more sensitive to me. We have vocal minority of extremists on twitter that get outraged about everything. 80 percent of the right gets their panties in a bunch if they see a gay dude on TV or hear someone talking badly about the U.S. it’s legitimately like North Korea levels of “don’t talk shit about our nation” and it’s terrifying to me. The only first world country that has worst Healthcare than the U.S. is Canada. By objective metrics of data and math we have one of the worst systems. And if you bring that up, you hate the U.S. and should leave and go somewhere else. It’s bewildering how you think the left is sensitive because of a vocal minority on twitter.
I remember one guy talking about how his favorite player ever was Carmelo Anthony. He was immediately attacked with "How many rings did he win?" Dude had to defend himself for saying Anthony was his favorite player and it was so dumb and shows how toxic fans are. He never said Melo was the goat, underrated, anything like that, just it was his favorite player and some fans act as though you can't appreciate a player who never won a ring, as though that's the only measurement of a player.
I agree!!!out of all the examples from the video AD is the only one really with an argument for winning finals MVP. There is a huge gap between the other 2 examples mentioned in the video
@@jacobyjonez9900Jonny just wanted to glaze lbj and slight ad after mentioning the MJ stans who hate LJ. Some fans and hoopers have said Scottie was more valuable and ad was more valuable. Only LJ MJ stans get triggered and seethe then
Ppl said dray was more valuable then curry too. Funny how all these old heads love defense until their holy MJ lbj curry get slighted by their teammates brilliance
Most of Pippen hate comes because of him saying dumb stuff and taking cheap shots at MJ. And Lebron fans make graphics with Jordan's playoff record with and without Pippen and stuff like that, acting like Pippen saved MJ and MJ was nothing without Pip, and the same Lebron fans act like Lebron was going to 8 straight finals with scrubs and he beat the 73-9 warriors by himself.
@@Michellekinard0128you realize the drafted Horace that same year and traded for a center the next year right? So when you compare records, it's what Jordan with and without 60% of his starting lineup.
@@sidjones16yet when jokic wins MVP and vastly more valuable than Gianni's and embod of all ppl WO his 1 and 2 everyone downplays him being in the goat conversation. Gordon was his best help and dude was probs a 74 overall if we're being nice. Not even top 100 in league yet lol
He was key in 2010 aswell. Clutch 2 way PG, usually drew some tough defensive tasks. Paxson and Kerr gret praised for their clutch shots, deservingly so, but Fischer was way better than both and isn't talked much.
@@davidschmidt1793he was a flopper and charge merchant. That's valuable but his defense was subpar and offense. This is like the Murray clutch shot arguments but w someone who plays decent all the way through you wouldn't need those clutch moments. Paxson had way better gravity and quick release. Fisher catapult stopped him from taking more and even stepped further back
@@ABasedTohanremember how excited Lakers fans were when we got rid of fish and got Ramon sessions. Ramon sessions had us believing he was a Messiah lol. D fish clutch goat but below mid player. He's no Iggy Livingston Barbosa level role player
Most of us Jordan fans absolutely acknowledge that. The problem is a lot of his haters/LeBron fans try to make Scottie as an exact equal to Jordan if not superior, then when we explain to them why that isn't true they claim we're disrespecting and/or underrating him to boost Jordan.
Glad your compliments on Kevin Love, one of my favorite players and one of the most underrated ones of the last decade 6:54 also this shot from Pau is insane, i've watched that game 7 4th quarter 4 times in fullness and that ball going in always catches me off guard Answering the question: Nikola Jokic is my favorite player, buy in that crucial game 4 of the finals, he was mid by his standards, putting up 23 pts/12 rbs/4ast on 42% fg, while Aaron Gordon had clearly the best game with 27 pts/7 rbs/6 ast on 73% fg. Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray also had better games than Jokic, but I'm tired of typing numbers.
When Kyrie left the CAVS and K.Love became a 2nd option, he only averaged 14.9ppg, 10.2 rebounds and 1.6 assists in the 2018 Playoffs… So he was far from his prime, just like 2014 Wade and Bosh or 2021 and 2022 AD who were all injury prone and washed, even when he playedin 2021 and 2022, AD only averaged 21.8ppg, 7.9 rebounds and 1.6 blocks on 49%fg and 26% 3pts in 21, and then 23.2ppg, 9.9rebounds and 2.3 block on 53%fg and a horrible 18% from 3 in 22 … So im sorry but when we say Lebron wasn’t lucky it’s the truth, even in 2015 both Kyrie and K.Love were injured for the Finals 🤷🏾♂️ So yeah Love was a good player in his prime, but his prime as a 1st option was in Minnesota, some people like you struggle to understand that the value of a player can drastically change depending on his role, i’d rather have Gobert, McDaniels, Josh Hart or OG Anunoby as a 3rd option if i already have 2 offensive beast like LBJ and Kyrie, it’s about chemistry and you can’t have elite chemistry without balance
Gordon doesn't do anything but feed off jokic LMAO. Horrible example. A better example is curry being saved by Klay game 6. Booker or KD helping each other. Dray Game 7. Shane battier scorching finals. Delly locking curry. Jrue locking book Paul
@@Anthonydu01630 I'm sorry, you're probably right but nothing you said has to do with what I said. When I said KLove was underrated I was talking about his last 4 years with the Timberwolves (prime) and his first three seasons with the Cavaliers (prime), where he avg'd: 23.5 pts / 13.7 rbs / 3 ast on 45/37/82 splits as a 1st option in Minneapolis and 17 pts / 10.2 rbs / 2.2 ast on 43/37/83 splits as a third option in a team with THREE SCORE FIRST PLAYERS (LBJ, JR Smith, KAI), and I wasn't talking about AD, Bosh and Wade at any point, what the hell do they have to do with my comment? Because they played with LeBron? That is a joke.
@@rockysalvatore435 he asked to talk about our FAVORITE PLAYER, not about any other one. Also Jokic had 4 assists only that game, so there was no way he kept being fed by Jokic THAT GAME. I remember watching that game 4, Jokic looked kinda rocky, got 5 fouls and I even thought he was fouled out until he came back late in the 4th, when his team was still up by double digits.
This video is absolutely fire, one of my new favorite goat debate videos, the whole time you were spot on. I'm honestly at the point with the goat debate where I'm just like "guys why can't we just enjoy basketball?" 😂😂 like seriously it's gotten so out of hand, it's gotta so agenda pushing, history revisionism, and disingenuous arguments it's gotten so toxic.
And AD and Dwade are far better players then Pippen ever was and CBosh and Klove had higher primes/better stats and Kyrie was better in the Finals then Pip ever was
9:23 The obvious one for Jordan is the 1996 finals. He shot wildly inefficiently in that series, and Dennis Rodman cleaned up the offensive glass to keep the Bulls alive. Actually, Pippen also contributed on that end, with almost as many as Kemp, and even Jordan himself had more offensive boards than anyone on the Sonics except Kemp. I've been wondering, having not watched the series, if this was a deliberate strategy by the Bulls against the Sonics defense. Regardless, this is arguably the only time Jordan was individually outplayed in a Finals. (I say arguably because, looking at the stats, the Sonics had more balanced scoring, which to me is just the mirror of Rodman and Pippen collecting so many rebounds, but in a way that makes Jordan look worse statistically; practically speaking, there is little difference between "pass the ball to a worse scorer with a decent look" and "make a mediocre shot that gives you a good chance at an offensive rebound"). Regardless, Jordan definitely relied heavily on team rebounding to win that series.
ive talked about this before on my tiktok, it's annoying how people completely disregard talent and at the same time uplift talent to levels they shouldn't be at. people don't want to be honest anymore and simply be truthful because they want to push a certain agenda for their favorite player. it's like the saying goes "you can't argue with stupid people, they don't even know what they're talking about".
It's bc they can't debate. Liberal mindset. Colleges politics and sports media too now. Same ppl who can't debate sports can't debate politics but will even chime in on politics like players choice podcast lol
This is the biggest issue and it’s rooted in the pro-LeBron argument. For some reason, LeBron leading the 2007 and 2018 Cavs team’s to the finals have convinced too many people that he’s had less help than any other all time great. So much so, that when you point out how that 2007 Cavs team was one of the best defensive, best defensive, and better 3 pt shooting teams in the league, it holds no weight because people have been convinced that that team was made up of bums who shouldn’t have gotten that far anyway. This type of rejection of objective truth is the basis upon which many of these narratives and half-truths are built and it started when Bron fans couldn’t convince MJ fans (or fans of other players believed to be the GOAT at some time) that Bron was a superior player.
@@percyschannel4187 The 2007 Cavs had some ok role players, the problem is there was such a massive gap between LeBron and the #2 guy that his fans have tricked themselves into thinking the team was just wholesale garbage. They also like to ignore how they got to the Finals by going throw a 41 win Wizards team that didn't have their two best players, a 41 win Nets team whose best players were getting into the older side and had been discombobulated all year, and still pretty good but getting older Detroit team that didn't have Ben Wallace or Larry Brown. It's awful convenient how they like to ignore that considering how they're the ones that started the argument about competition. That 2018 run was pretty good though, and for my money should be getting the praise that the 2007 run gets.
This wasn't that big of an issue until LeBron entered the goat conversation. I think everyone held Scottie in high regard until the narrative changed that he was the only reason why Jordan was able to make all of his accomplishments. It puts people on the defensive and drives people to match such ridiculous statements. So, yes, Stans always dilute the discussion but let's not pretend like we don't know where all this started. People love to talk about how Kobe was carried by Shaq and Jordan couldn't have done it without Kobe. Those same people are comfortable ignoring that LBJ joined up with top players, multiple times, in order to get his chips. I get your point but I think this rhetoric primarily comes from a certain camp.
The lebron community really messed it up they the ines that started the bs wit disrespecting players teams fanbase etc. Before the clown show we have today. MJ fans Kobe fans Magic fans etc had debates n respected the opposition the history of the game n didn't provide that "toxic" environment we have today. Now you have these little kids that religiously follow lebron n can't take any type of criticism bout their king cuz they'll disrespect you your family n your whole existence.
@@SilentMovements305it started with MJ fans that refused to accept that someone was coming for their goat. They refused to accept that somebody that wasn’t around 30 years ago was really good. They couldn’t accept change. Now it’s completely deluded with terrible Bron fans that’ll defend him to death and terrible MJ fans that act like he could never make a mistake. The goat debate is ruined 😾
Y'all are quick to say bron joined top players MULTIPLE times when that's STATISICALLY & HISTORICALLY inaccurate. Miami yes,but Cleveland & la were azz before he got there,matter fact even miami was a bottom feeder non playoff team before bosh & bron joined.
Problem is not with Kobe or Jordan Problem is I read thousands of comments on YT, Facebook etc., that Lebron NEVER had help His fanboys literally say that he had no help When in fact he had more help than Kobe and Jordan That's why we hate his delusional fanboys and dislike him
Just like Jordan fans claim MJ is the sole reason he won 6. Yall valid Pippen sucked until Jordan was able to make him better. Yall are no better than any other player's fan.
Whatever crap you say guys, whatever names you call me, can't take away the fact that Lebron when he retires, will not be even top ten. He got to pass to many legends of this sport He had two great years in his career but he ruined it the moment he cheated the game Pray that noone ever investigate the steroid rumors and finds out He's a crying, flopping, whining, tantrum throwing, selfcentered egoist and will never be greater than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Kobe etc etc Whatever you say, I couldn't care less when you support rhe biggest fraud this game has evervseen
Great video, Jonny! I too am not a fan of how some will tear down another player just to boost their favorite player. It's terrible and I agree with you that it's disrespectful and so wrong. To answer your question, one of my favorite players of all time is Tim Duncan. I'm not a Spurs fan, but have long been a fan of TD. As with the other stars you mentioned, he couldn't get it done alone either. We all know about Manu, Parker, Robinson, and Leonard. But, there were also others, like Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, etc. who played important supporting roles in helping the Spurs win championships. Nice work again. Have a great week, Jonny!
Hospital rings pretty much and Cinderella Barry Walton joker. Then Kobe. Lockout teams too. Asterisk kawhi bc if he's healthy that team is not legendary. Roster wise 14 spurs kinda Garbo lol
NBA fans are lucky to have had two of the most incredible and impressive athletes in sports history play in consecutive eras, meaning we have had 40 consecutive years of witnessing the best of the best the game will ever have to offer. And yet, we use that to diminish players, call people plumbers, call guys weak and diminish the game as a whole. We as fans should set this aside and love the game for what it is, watch its evolution and respect generations past for how they have shaped the game, and that way we can enjoy basketball to the fullest.
If you're talking about jordan, man- he's OVERRATED than a mtfkr!!!! Never played a historically great team in his peak years and never beat one, EVER!!!! When championships carry so much weight as a barometer for greatness, then the manner AND competition should always take the front seat for consideration and rankings‐ this is why jordan has the "plumbers" stigma attached to his namesake and legacy‐ HE NEVER EVEN SCRATCHED AGAINST ANY GREAT TEAM WITHOUT SCOTTIE PIPPEN AS A TEAMMATE OR PHIL JACKSON AS A COACH (*let's not forget custom-built stacked teams, rule changes, and special treatment by the referees)!!!!
Jonny, I don’t think a lot of people were ready for this video. You made a lot of great points and the same bad faith arguments are being posted in the comments. Maybe one day we’ll all be able to look in the mirror to see if we are part of the problem. Love your videos. Thanks for your hard work.
The whole Pippen discourse is a natural reaction to Lebron fans constant overrating of the guy. I've literally heard James stans claim that Scottie is a top 10 player all time, and that he "carried" Jordan. Truth is, the guy is rated where he should be, top 50 player, one of the best second options of all time. He's never shown that he can be the number 1 guy on a title contender.
@@kjjr3270 lol why would I lie? It's a common narrative among Bron stans that Pippen carried Jordan. Go look up fyf sports on RUclips, dudes one of the most popular nba youtubers. He literally made a video and asked "why is Pippen not considered top 10 of all time." So yea, there are actual Lebron stans out there that believe this. I'm guessing you're one as well 🤭.
@@MrAnthero7 literally said that nobody is serious about Pippen being Top 10. How tf did you get me thinking he is Top 10 now ffs? Lebron piped yo ho ahh mama or what? Not everyone is a Lebron you know that right?
@@kjjr3270 and I literally gave you an example of lebron fans claiming Pippen should have top 10 consideration. Can you read? Guess you ride that special section on the bus to school eh?
I swear pau gasol was a god at getting putbacks in clutch time…he did it against OKC in game 6 i believe, and also against the suns, and against the Celtics in game 7, its almost like a win win because kobe either makes it or misses it and then pau just scores anyway lol.
For context on Lebron beating the pistons in 07.... We were on the way to a rebuild. We lost our interior degense in Ben Wallace and picked up a washed 33 year old C Webb. Sheed declined and we lived and died by Billups, Rip, and Prince. That team won 3 more games than the evenly matched Cleveland team so when we talk about Cleveland, we need to not pretend tbey were a squad of bums.
Great vid Jonny! I wholeheartedly agree. That said - our guy D FISH was critical in that 09 finals as well as, a game that gets me choked up every time I watch, game 3 2010 finals. I love that man ❤
I used to tout how AI was the goat because he alone got the 76ers to the NBA Finals and won one..... without mentioning DPOY, Coach of the Year and 6th man of the year being a part of that squad
Belittling teammates is really a Lebron fan thing because here in Chicago, every player on the 91-93 and 96-98 Bulls are beloved down to the role players. Lebron fans on the other hand call Dwayne Wade washed up, don't acknowledge that Wade outplayed Lebron in the 2011 Finals, don't acknowledge that Kyrie averaged 27 ppg in the Finals and outplayed Curruy who was the MVP, are trying to erase Kyrie's game winner from history by focusing on Lebron blocking Iguodala. They ignore literal mathematics and won't admit that Kyrie's 3 would have STILL put Cleveland ahead even if Iguodala had scored because Iggy's layup would have only scored 2 points, they mock Anthony Davis for being injury prone, they shit on Kevin Love like he was a bum when Lebron begged to get him to Cleveland, don't acknowledge that Love's defense on Curry's last shot in Game 7 was critical, they treat Ray Allen and Chris Bosh like they never existed when those two guys kept the Heat alive in Game of 2013. I don't know of any of Lebron's championship teammates who receive a warm welcome in any of Lebron's cities. Shit, not even Kyrie in Cleveland since Lebron fans turned on him immediately after he left the Cavs and diminished his role in coming back from 3-1 while simultaneously using Kyrie's injury as an excuse for losing in 2015. He wasn't important in 2016 when you actual won, but was important in 2015 when you lost? Same applies to Kevin Love, who is never brought up besides in reference to him being hurt in 2015. Make it make sense.
@@ivblizzard3616Jordan fans put the media and LeBron lovers in their place about Pippen. Pippen was a bench player when he joined the Bulls. Pippen wasn't some savior that LeBron fans and the media try to tell you. Pippen wasn't a top 5 player in the league. Pippen literally has done nothing that needs to be downplayed compared to who LeBron, Magic, Kobe, Curry etc all had as teammates. Stop trying to make Pippen into more than what he was.
Hey Johnny Im a new basketball creator on here and I just wanna say you were one of the people who inspired me to start doing this because I love talking about nba history just like you. Keep going man !
Brother, you give real representation to the history and present state of the game. Your work is incredible and is real to people that truly love the game. Please keep it up
@jonnyarnett you prove yet again why you are the clear GOAT of basketball content creators on RUclips. Honestly a large portion of basketball fans are ruining basketball with these stupid debates. Just appreciate these guys greatness! Greatness comes in different forms not just 1 path to greatness.
Yes but no one and it was obvious by his stats that Pippen was NEVER gonna be in the Top 75 without MJ there. MJ was already being talked about as a “HOF” player by the year 89.
Kobe has no reasonable arguments to be put above Bron. You are just letting your emotions get into these conversations, can't even be rational as a grown man. Kobe is not even Top 5.
MJ stans seething. MJ isn't embodiment of nineties era or culture. He's just MJ. He's not your childhood. Stop worshipping. I'm sure you loved more than nineties hoops lol.
@@rockysalvatore435 Thank God you not in the media 😂 Dumbest opinion I ever heard 😂😂😂 Mj isn’t the 90s lol I didnt even mention the 90s in my comment Einstein 🤡
No need for me to give examples .. You definitely knocked this one out the park .. I'm very glad you addressed this behavior from some of these fans. Too many inviduals commenting, who know a lot about nothing. Keep up the great work, Jonny.
I was a Cavs fan during Lebron’s second stint (Kyrie’s my favourite active player, rip Mamba) The ‘trash’ narrative for K Love is casual at best and vindictive at worst. Love was an All-Star 2 of the 4 years of Lebron’s second stint in cle He averaged 17 10 and 2 assists on 37% 3pt 84%ft During the playoffs he averaged 15 10 and 2 on 40% 3pt shooting on 6 attempts a game, so not even a small sample Love was elite as a shooter and rebounder If you watched Cavs games Love’s rebounding, shooting and full court passes were integral More importantly him guarding the stronger 4s meant Bron could guard the 3s, save energy and avoid injury Love was far from trash or a scrub. He was a back to the basket guy who occasionally popped who was forced to be a perimeter guy and was elite during the playoffs
That's all we want. For fans of who to be honest and objective, but most fans aren't anymore if they favor a specific player. I became a Jordan and Kobe fan, but I grew up rooting for the teams that they consistently beat (bad boy pistons and the Sacramento kings of the early 2000s). So saying anything negative about them doesn't affect me the same way it does for most of their passionate fans, but I do get annoyed with most LeBron's fans that don't use logic or when the logic that they are trying to use gets used to prove a flaw, they tend to try to manipulate the argument to move the goalpost
Pippen was not the second-best player in the league when he was with Chicago, but he has a strong argument as the best small forward in the league during that time. So Chicago had maybe the two best players at their respective positions during their dynasty, much like Shaq and Kobe.
The difference between MJ's help and Lebron's help is MJ made his teammates better during practice while Lebron's teammates were already 1 before they became his 2 or 3. Smh
@@melvynsngltn27Um Scottie Pippen would have been a an ok player if he never went to the bulls. MJ made him become a great player and a champion. Lebron literally scouts already made great players to play with and turns them into a spot up shooter 🙄. Then blames them when they eventually lose.
Scottie is a top 50 players for sure. But I feel like he is a bit overhyped. He was great in the regular season but didn’t elevate and even sometimes underperformed during the playoffs.
For debates like this social media has just ruined it with how much hate someone can get for saying something so simple and then it gets taken in the complete opposite direction of what was originally said
There should have never been an argument about who had help and who didn't. Every star needs help, no one can win a title by themselves. In my opinion, the arguments should be: How each star got his help? How much help they had? And what they did with the help once they got it?
Yo Jonny. I hate the GOAT debate. I hate the top # all time lists. Like, if we took all the best players out of their eras and stuck them all in a bubble for a year teaching them how to play in this (or any other) era, they'd all be f***ing awesome, because they are all him. And it'd be glorious.
The goat debate has been the worst debate in basketball for a decade now. Everyone knows all the stats, everyone knows all the facts and everyone has their goat. You're never gonna convince someone otherwise who the goat is, so it's a pointless topic imo.
My favorite moment as an example of what you’re discussing in this video is Kyrie in Game 7, 2016. Blew my mind when he hit that 3 over Curry. Not a big Kyrie fan since then tbh, but that shot will forever be remembered by Cavs fans, and Lebron fans too
Lebron fans more-so reference Lebron blocking Iguodala more than they reference Kyrie's shot. Kyrie was never given much credit in 2016, and instead the 2016 Finals has been purely used for Lebron's GOAT case. Kyrie outplayed Curry who was the MVP, hit the game winner, and averaged 27 ppg but literally none of this is ever mentioned. Instead, I see Lebron blocking Iguodala every where, even when Game 7 is posted on RUclips, Lebron's block is often times the screenshot. Despite the fact that Cleveland would have still won the game regardless because Iguodala's blocked shot would have only counted for 2 points and Kyrie hit a 3. Lebron fans then turned around and shitted on Kyrie for YEARS after he left Cleveland and only started to acknowledge Kyrie again once Lebron started begging Kyrie to come to the Lakers. Keep in mind that Lebron fans were the ORIGINAL Kyrie haters. The Covid stuff came much much later.
nah im sorry kobe fans are so much more annoying. They act like the guy is christ returned just cause he died in the least relatable way possible. "dumb" Lebron stans are mostly just actual children
@@sumnahlennon5449bet. You guys run away from debate and play victim and sensitive all the time lol. You guys cry at criticism but don't counter points and privilege
Probably the worst part is that it's two sides, at least one of which (and often both) usually has only really ever watched _one_ of the two players being discussed. Also the BS knocks on jordan for "not beating Bird" (etc) and "not winning until Scottie came", which ignores the fact that he had no team.. or the "Lebron took his team to the finals immediately.." while ignoring that the Eastern conference was far easier by that point to make it to the finals in.
i know both fanbases do it. But even then MJ is still better than Lebron. But that doesn't mean LeBron isn't just as good if not better than him. It just means that I'd rather have one guy over anyone else. I respect both of them and they have pathed their own journey to basketball immortality. The GOAT debate is preference honestly.
Couldn’t have said it any better. Nothing but straight facts. It’s annoying when people get into their over the top bias with their “guy” by tearing down the opposing “guy” just to build theirs up. It’s cool to have someone as the goat over another just as long as they’re respectful to the other one.
It's a legitimate fact that MJ is a better basketball player than LBJ. That doesn't take away from what LBJ has accomplished but MJ was obsessed with being the best basketball player in the world and I just don't get that same drive from LeBron (he wants to be seen as that but doesn't put in the work for it). That's why MJ is in a different plain of existence compared to LeBron. LeBron is a lot closer to Magic Johnson than he is Jordan simply because I think LeBron is a very similar player to Magic.......comparing him to Jordan was never a fair fight because LBJ just can't touch that.
The fact that the game is 5 on 5 is the reason why the "goat" talk will always be elusive. Even in Tennis and Boxing there are debates about who is the greatest. It is far overdue for us to learn how to respect each other's opinions and in the process actually learn some things about other players!!!
Very good video. Everything in context. More help than anyone else in the History of the game. Love, Bosh both in or entering their primes took several steps back and get crucified for this.
And Pippen/Gasoline get absolutely dumped on and trashed by the respective fan base lol are we going to ignore Shaq gifting Kobe 3 rings as well? Lebron has never had a player with the talent level of Shaq. What a disingenuous argument at best
The debate only included help and competition when Lebron fanboys realized there was no argument they couldn't make to claim Lebron was actually better than Jordan.
Personally I think Bron is better, but the only reason I bring up help is when MJ fans show retarded stats like how many teammates that were all stars at one point played with Bron and then they show Westbrook, Melo, Shaq, etc. and mfs like Larry Hughes.
Isn't that what Jordan "fan boys" do? Don't they just bring up championships and how LeBron always stack the deck? And aren't they the ones who always try to twist the narrative and make it seem like Jordan was the sole reason his team won 6 chips? Shii this video wasn't even a Jordan vs LeBron debate 😂😂. Y'all NBA fans, every single one, are such sheeps to dishonest narratives. The way y'all mystify NBA players and diminish others to fit y'all narratives is sickening.
The most annoying thing about the goat debate (and basketball discussions in general) is the ignoring of context. E.g. the time machine argument and over-emphasis on stats.
The worst part of the GOAT debate is that is a manufactured debate. There’s no debate, MJ is the goat. Most important player in the history of sports, not basketball, sports. No other player has mean as much for the world wide cultural zeitgeist than Jordan. The end.
@@bishop4298 my respects to all of them, specially Jim Brown and Jackie. But no one was bigger, worldwide, zeitgeist wide, like Jordan. And that was in the pre internet era when the internet wasn’t still as hyper connected as today. But maybe you have a point with Ali.
Being popular doesn't make you good at the thing you're doing. Michael Jordan is probably the one of most influential athletes of all time but this has nothing to do with how good of a player he was
Its MJ vs Bron only at this point. Love Kobe, but his 1 MVP and the fact that he wasn't even the best player on over half of his rings (i know he wasn't an ordinary 2nd option, but still) shouldn't have him in the goat conversation. I mean if you have a player like MJ who plays the same position and clears him so obviously, why tf should you even be considerd for that? Bron clears, Kareem clears, Magic clears, Duncan clears. Steph, Bird etc. have reasonable arguments to be put above him as well. Kobe is not a Top 5 player and its completely fine you people need to embrace that. Top 10 nothing more nothing less.
@@jacoblee5796people don’t understand how easy Shaq made it for his guards until they learned to dominate on their own. He drew all the defenses attention. Leaving plenty of room to operate if you were an elite wing.
Shaq was so much better than Kobe, he should be the 1 in this GOAT conversation with Lbj and MJ not Kobe, go look at his stats, only Lbj and MJ had a higher peak, and you can even argue Shaq peak was just as high
EXACTLY!! Great video! (to your petition, I think Rodman should be in this conversation with Pippen and MJ), with Williams we have Weber and with JoKic we have Gordon).
@@samuelm2098 it's your team. Kobe is very good, but he's not MJ. Athletically he is several steps behind..speed, strength, quickness, hand size etc. All limitations in comparison to MJ.
When Jason terry step up in game 6 of the 2011 NBA finals when Dirk was having a off night. He basically kept the mavericks in game til Dirk finally got his shot going in the 4th quarter 😊
Exactly 💯 it's sad asf. And they'll complain about bron fans but do the exact same thing. But I realize that it's not bron fans who's toxic. It's NBA fans that are toxic.
You’re part of the reason why the goat debate is stupid. You’re only argument is against LeBron. James fans were Jordan fans are terrible and Colby friends are terrible.
Honestly, the worst part of the goat debate are the nicknames. Letrash, Lebum, legoat, my glorious king. And on the other side you have literature such as jorfraud, jortrash, jorgoat, jorgambler (yes, I’ve heard this one before). I’m about 99% sure these are just kids who want to sound funny, if you’re going to sound stupid, at least come up with something clever. Like the MJ nicknames just sound disgusting.
The whole GOAT debate is annoying. Its just fanboys having nothing better to do than make stupid arguments in their head why their daddy "GOAT" is better than other players. It was kind of fun to discus it in 2018 but today you realize there are to many sick people that have a deification problem.
The real difference between LeBron and Mike, and the real reason why LeBron will never be anywhere near the greatest ever is that Every single player that plays with LeBron has to make sacrifices and is a worse version of themselves for playing with LeBron. Michael, Larry Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, Kobe and Shaq all made the players around them better. Bron is the only great who never does that.
@Ejohns1004 not only are you proving you’re part of the problem but you’re just flat out wrong. Please for the sake of basketball stop watching and discussing it.
Lebron not making the players around him better? You definitely never watched a game of his saying this blasphemy. Also if you always need to double Shaq no shi people gonna be open and you tryna tell me Kobe had a bigger impact on his teammates than Lebron?
@@michaelmirabella8420LeBron dosent make his teammates better. He joined esteem All-Star/All-NBA players. The 3rd guy has to sacrifice numbers and their style of play to fit LeBron because LeBron can only play one way. We saw this with the avengers. They should've been blowing out the comp. LeBron fans don't like the truth.
Thanks for appreciating Gasol. Massively underrated. Work ethic like Kobe, which I'm sure is the reason they got along so well and why the won 2 rings.
Kobe’s a legend but his rather lack lustre finals performances (wouldn’t have one in the top 20) is the reason he would be 9-12 on my GOAT list. Still awesome
Agreed, Kobe is an all time great, no doubt. But I got Kobe ranked outside of the top ten. Kobe does have 5 rings but in most of his finals appearances he played mid to horrid. I feel he gets way more credit than he deserves and not enough criticism, even though he was a big part of the team.
Jordan helped groom Scottie Pippen into what he became. He was a softy. LeBron quit because he didn't know how to win, so he tucked tail and ran to Wade. LeBron even said Wade taught him how to win 🤣🤣 LeBron, and Kevin Durant are two of the most pathetic basketball players I've ever seen.
I play a lot of pickup basketball and the best players always want to team up with other good players because they want to win so I never understood why NBA players get so much hate for having other great players on their teams. Everyone wants to win and you need good players to win. Great Video Jonny! Always speaking facts 😤
🤦🏻 god, what drives me insane is this false notion of ‘objectivity’ conflating a few dumb Michael Jordan fans as if they’re equivalent to the fanbase who literally have reporters digging up random games from 1988 to try and discredit Jordan’s DPotY. That in itself is a dishonest conversation. As a Cavs fan and former LeBron fan, I can acknowledge Lebron played about as good as anyone could under that kind of pressure in games 5-7 of the 2016 Finals. I can acknowledge game 5 of the 2007 ECF is one of the greatest all time takeovers of a game we’ve ever seen. What I can’t acknowledge is that ‘Michael Jordan fans’ are just as bias and delusional about MJ’s greatness as LeBron fans are about his. Framing the conversation as if they are is not being objective, it’s being disingenuously neutral. I honestly wouldn’t even care if weren’t calling out other ppl for being disingenuous at the same time…
The worst part about the goat debate is that Lebron is not really goat material. 3,5 chips with 3 different super teams. He's a great player no doubt about it, but not close to the goat MJ.
What aspect of the GOAT debate annoys you the most?
when they downplay Mike's competition in the finals like he won all his 6 rings facing off against middle schoolers
6-0 vs 4-10. I think Lebron going to 8 consecutive finals is amazing and he don't get enough credit. Whenever he left a team they when from finalist to lottery. Lebron one of my favorites. Michael the greatest!
The fact that no one mentions that there is TONS of evidence Lebron takes illegal Ped's and even the DEA proves Ped's were purchased in his wife's name is annoying. We have to look at every aspect if you want to be fair. Lebron is juiced up.
When MJ fans try and say that 6 rings end the GOAT debate even though there are 9 players with more than 6 rings
@@KW_SPORTS_WWWAll of those players with rings than MJ weren’t elite on both ends of the ball, weren’t even the best on their teams, or were just a role player like Robert Harry’s case.
THE WORST PART OF THE NBA 🏀 🐐 DEBATE .. 'FANS' WHO DISRESPECT THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE GAME ..
🎯🎯
More like fans who disregard the history and think it's cool to trash it.
MJ lbj curry stans. Edwards too
And by entire history, you mean entire history. The present, the past, and the potential future. All had greatness and great play
@rockysalvatore435
Just call them what they are, fanboys. Jordan fans are the worst. They love to indoctrinate others into believing the hype to where even people that never seen him play are calling him the goat. 🙄
The GOAT debate has become extremly toxic, to the point where no one is listening to each other both sides are just yelling
One side is right and one side is wrong.
And the LeBron side is dead wrong.
@@TheBamaPrinceablenot really
@@TheBamaPrinceable it's an opinion. There's no official GOAT, nobody says it HAS to be a certain person
@@littlebillyjoejimbob I just don't understand why people say Kobe shouldn't be in the GOAT debate when LeBron is! Even at most basic level, Kobe has 5 rings(threepeat and repeat) LeBron has just 3,5 rings with countless superteams and even longer career than Kobe
@@BeerAndJointsAllDay so Bill Russell is your GOAT then. 11 rings in 13 years and an 8-peat. If you say anything to dump on Russell then you only prove that you don't believe in your own logic.
Worst part of GOAT debate is people assuming your arguments for you, and arguing with what they expect you to say rather than what you are saying.
Problem is most stans say same thing over and over no matter how many times it's been countered. Curry and lbj fans ignore criticism and just spam muh hater.
Most arguments are already out there. Best way to counter in an argument is to be a step ahead. If you’re not bringing anything that hasn’t been said before, then you’re failing at the fundamental basis of arguing.
The strawman!
@@GabrielXanderlosing in the finals times
@@ricardolozano5356 that’s a great example
I made a simple statement last week on Reddit about the assets the Nets sent Houston for James Harden and it devolved into people denigrating Harden, Kyrie and KD. We cant have intelligent discussions about hoops anymore at all 😢😢
This makes me wish that hot take culture were never a thing~
Maybe bc ppl don't like em lol. Maybe they were more interested in that
what was the statement about the assets?
Your first mistake was posting on Reddit. People are obnoxious freaks on there
Regarding the Rockets-Nets trade, It was a bad trade for Brooklyn. They lost an excellent center & depth.
Harden was entering free agency in the following summer. He left OKC before and asked out of Houston midway into the season. It was dumb to put all hopes on a guy who wasn't committed to his previous teams, especially since the team was already very deep without him
Dikembe Motumbo stepping up to help AI in 2001. The man won a dpoy and people act like AI was playing 1v5. not that AI had any real offensive talent on his team other than himself. BUT just because he didnt have a bunch of offensive juggernauts dosnt mean he didnt have a bunch of really good defnders either. They had the 5th best defense that season. Dikembe was integral to that team. AI was the offensive engine and Dikembe was the defensive engine.
Great example. People don’t talk about the masterpiece game from Dikembe in Game 7 of the ECF against the Bucks. 23 points, 19 boards, and 7 blocks. Fantastic performance
I like Mt. Mutumbo, but he was never an offensive threat, not to mention that as McKie was the 2nd leading scorer and he was their 6th man and 6th man of the year. Regardless of what anyone says, Iverson and LeBron did take the worst 2 teams ever to the finals. It just becomes annoying when LeBron fans try to act like he ALWAYS dragged his teams there, when in actuality that was the only time
@@mrshanny82 Defense took that 76ers to the finals, same with the 04 Pistons that lacked an offensive star. Iverson was the main offensive weapon, but looking at that ECF, it was clear the 76ers's defense anchored by Mutombo and Larry Brown won them the series. Iverson shot 34.4% from the field and they were going up against a trio of Cassell, Ray Allen and Glen Robinson. The 07 Cavs was an amazing defensive team, unlike the 2018 team.
@davidschmidt1793 yes, but they were up against an unstoppable force in Shaquille O'Neal and a budding star in Kobe Bryant. Their defense wasn't going to be enough to stop them all game long. Also, the pistol had balanced scoring with the exception of big Ben
@@davidschmidt1793 Rasheed Wallace was one of the best PF in the game in Portland. Led them to 2 WCFs. Top 4 PF in the early 2000s. Rip was a Great Value Ray Allen. Chauncey's nickname was Mr Big Shot.
The worst part about the goat debate is that there is a debate and fuss about it, just enjoy the greatness you are witnessing, appreciate and respect the past, embrace the present and future
There have been so many great players, there are currently so many greats among us and there will be many more
THANK YOU, you said everything that was on my mind as soon as I saw the topic… 🫡
Wahhh can't handle objective rankings
A true logical comment
Thank you 👍
@rockysalvatore435 There is no objective ranking. Everyone has different criteria for greatness
The "help" debate is muddied by the fact that truly great players are able to make those around them better, either by pushing them hard, diverting the attention of the defenders, facilitating them, or all of the above. It's hard to know how good certain players would've been without a great player pushing them to their own greatness.
The best of the best at elevating his teammates is undoubtedly Bill Russell
(Coughs) Larry Bird
If you Do not have a good or great supportive cast then it doesn't matter how much you make your team better. You're not going far.
It is also muddied based on people’s inability to understand how different eras were.
@@younglove3362correct, but it makes it easier to discern how much impact they had. Kobe Bryant dragging those ass Lakers to the playoffs was incredible in 2007, should have been evidence enough. More impressive than when he dragged DNP Steve Nash and Dwight Howard's sorry ass to the playoffs on a ruptured Achilles.
i think AD had a very solid case for FMVP, not saying he was robbed but could be argued he was the best player that series
If Igaudola can get FMVP, AD DEFINITELY deserves it.
@@sidjones16Iggy clamped LJ. He's was the literal difference while curry was flopping w Delly and still couldn't get open despite all the moving screens. You curry fans need to stop getting sensitive.
@@sidjones16lbj clearly best player by mile in series. Not even close. 3x value of curry. Curry was useless. Iggy comes in and completely dampens LBJ. That's why he's MVP. By far he was most valuable to GS lol
@@sidjones16 steph should have gotten that fmvp. it was just narratives.
@@footyroll8678 you literally can't argue anything I said sjw
Everyone says Jokic and Giannis won their championships alone.
They dont acknowledge Jamal Murray and Khris Middleton respectively.
Calling them outright bums cos they got injured again
Calling anyone in the NBA a bum is insane
That's because most of the discussion is overwhelming with casuals.
@@jaystaxks9 Skap attack. RUclipsr, he's pretty good but mocks Jamal Murray every single time
@@MarkLaw13 Probably the one area where I think Skap Attack is being an asshole for no reason. I'd rather have Jamal Murray on my team in the playoffs than a majority of the so called "All Stars" in the NBA simply because come playoff time, Murray delivers. Dude hit two game winning shots in the same series against two of the best players in the league......that's not a bum.
Gianni's hospital run. Murray is joker merchant. Look at on off
Somehow this “teammate effect” is hardly ever mentioned when talking about Magic or Kareem. It’s as if they never played together. There’s no pulling down one, or pushing up another-type of effect.
It’s just odd.
No one mentions them in the greatest of all time debate.
The media started this when they had no one to really market after Jordan's two retirements.
You'll notice it's primarily the networks that spent billions to broadcast the NBA.
@@sidjones16MJ was og media baby protected.
Or curry or lebron or Gianni's. Gianni's is muh 2 way demigod w dpoy runner-up Brook. Jrue leaves and both look like giraffes on skates and defense plummets. LMAO. Timmy was taxed properly but as time passes ppl act like Manu and Tony were just role players lol.
@@sidjones16People mention Kareem all the time in the GOAT debates.
@@sidjones16
Kareem is mentioned in the GOAT debate.
And even if you don’t consider that aspect of it. People mention Pip. Is he legitimately in the GOAT debate?
Even someone like Stockton gets flak for playing with Karl “PDF” Malone, and neither one of them is in the GOAT debate.
This is a moot point.
In Game 2 of 2011 finals. Mavs went down 15 points. Jet Terry was pissed cause the Heat celebrated in front of his bench. He actually did some chirping to LBJ and Wade. Jet immediately went 4 for 4 and cut the lead to 7. Dirk got credit for closing the game cause he scored the Mavs last 9 points . But Terry made that happen. He elevated Dirk to close out the game
Terry who was a bench player 6 inches shorter than LeBron helped shut him down and win the Finals against the Miami super team that had 3 of the top 10 players in the league at that time.
And then lebron cried after that..😭😭😭
@@ramonramirez3761Terry had almost nothing to do with "shutting LeBron down". That credit belongs mostly to Shawn Marion (his primary defender), Jason Kidd (his primary defender when Marion sat), and Tyson Chandler (rim protection and help defense was huge in that series). The whole team does deserve some credit though for perfectly executing their gameplan of shrinking the court and forcing Bron to kick it out - similar "build a wall" type strategy to what the Raptors did against Giannis. That's why Miami went out and got a bunch of shooters to help them win the next 2 titles so that teams couldn't do that anymore
@@nolanrussell6326 stop making excuses for Lebum , did you watch the games ? Why did Terry and J.J. Barrera out scored him!!! It was not Shawn Marion and Jason kidd that shut him down it was JJ who is 6'2 come on stop your nonsense!!! And Terry who is 6'3 ...Non of those guys are Defense players of the year or even 1st team defense players!!!
@@nolanrussell6326 You making excuses for a bum !!!
While I agree with every word you said to me the most annoying thing about the GOAT debate is the denigrating way people talk about the opposing side. For some reason people can't be great unless it's their GOAT. That's why I don't participate in it anymore
@@rockysalvatore435As someone from the left in politics, the right on average seems way more sensitive to me. We have vocal minority of extremists on twitter that get outraged about everything.
80 percent of the right gets their panties in a bunch if they see a gay dude on TV or hear someone talking badly about the U.S. it’s legitimately like North Korea levels of “don’t talk shit about our nation” and it’s terrifying to me.
The only first world country that has worst Healthcare than the U.S. is Canada. By objective metrics of data and math we have one of the worst systems. And if you bring that up, you hate the U.S. and should leave and go somewhere else. It’s bewildering how you think the left is sensitive because of a vocal minority on twitter.
I remember one guy talking about how his favorite player ever was Carmelo Anthony. He was immediately attacked with "How many rings did he win?" Dude had to defend himself for saying Anthony was his favorite player and it was so dumb and shows how toxic fans are. He never said Melo was the goat, underrated, anything like that, just it was his favorite player and some fans act as though you can't appreciate a player who never won a ring, as though that's the only measurement of a player.
this start when someone crowd himself, and buys the media to talk shit about old eras. There is no problem when was kobe, or others suposed goats.
I hate all the name calling and immature speculation about them.
The numbers actually do back up Anthony Davis winning the MVP, especially considering his defensive impact. Or, at the very least, it was close
I agree!!!out of all the examples from the video AD is the only one really with an argument for winning finals MVP. There is a huge gap between the other 2 examples mentioned in the video
Dpoy last 2 years imo. Goat level value
@@jacobyjonez9900Jonny just wanted to glaze lbj and slight ad after mentioning the MJ stans who hate LJ. Some fans and hoopers have said Scottie was more valuable and ad was more valuable. Only LJ MJ stans get triggered and seethe then
Ppl said dray was more valuable then curry too. Funny how all these old heads love defense until their holy MJ lbj curry get slighted by their teammates brilliance
I was just about to say this. The numbers and eye test MOST def backed up AD winning that MVP.
Most of Pippen hate comes because of him saying dumb stuff and taking cheap shots at MJ. And Lebron fans make graphics with Jordan's playoff record with and without Pippen and stuff like that, acting like Pippen saved MJ and MJ was nothing without Pip, and the same Lebron fans act like Lebron was going to 8 straight finals with scrubs and he beat the 73-9 warriors by himself.
How many times Jordan went to the finals without pip lol
@@Michellekinard0128you realize the drafted Horace that same year and traded for a center the next year right?
So when you compare records, it's what Jordan with and without 60% of his starting lineup.
@@Michellekinard0128 🥱
@@Michellekinard0128 🍼👶🏻🧸
@@sidjones16yet when jokic wins MVP and vastly more valuable than Gianni's and embod of all ppl WO his 1 and 2 everyone downplays him being in the goat conversation. Gordon was his best help and dude was probs a 74 overall if we're being nice. Not even top 100 in league yet lol
Love the Photoshop of Pau into the photoshopped Kobe vs Celtics image. They're all yelling at Kobe and Pau is just sorta there 😂😂😂
Pau don't wanna get called racist for retaliation to their energy
Derrick Fisher 09 finals vs Magic…super clutch plays to help Mamba win his first ring without Shaq
He was key in 2010 aswell. Clutch 2 way PG, usually drew some tough defensive tasks. Paxson and Kerr gret praised for their clutch shots, deservingly so, but Fischer was way better than both and isn't talked much.
@@davidschmidt1793 that’s a fact
@@davidschmidt1793he was a flopper and charge merchant. That's valuable but his defense was subpar and offense. This is like the Murray clutch shot arguments but w someone who plays decent all the way through you wouldn't need those clutch moments. Paxson had way better gravity and quick release. Fisher catapult stopped him from taking more and even stepped further back
@@ABasedTohanremember how excited Lakers fans were when we got rid of fish and got Ramon sessions. Ramon sessions had us believing he was a Messiah lol. D fish clutch goat but below mid player. He's no Iggy Livingston Barbosa level role player
@@rockysalvatore435Those are valid points but the fact remains he was essential for 2 chips for the purple and gold.
As a longtime Jordan fan, I'm happy to acknowledge that Pippen was essential to MJ's success. No superstar ever won a title by himself.
Most of us Jordan fans absolutely acknowledge that. The problem is a lot of his haters/LeBron fans try to make Scottie as an exact equal to Jordan if not superior, then when we explain to them why that isn't true they claim we're disrespecting and/or underrating him to boost Jordan.
It could be argued rick barry did. Even his team mates hated him.
MJ acknowledged Pippen every time a mic was put in his face.
Jordan never even made it out the second round without help..Bron went to the finals
@@shinsukecorbin425 no one cares. The East was weaker anyway.
your videos give me life man i have been a fan for several years now and i still get excited when you post
Glad your compliments on Kevin Love, one of my favorite players and one of the most underrated ones of the last decade
6:54 also this shot from Pau is insane, i've watched that game 7 4th quarter 4 times in fullness and that ball going in always catches me off guard
Answering the question: Nikola Jokic is my favorite player, buy in that crucial game 4 of the finals, he was mid by his standards, putting up 23 pts/12 rbs/4ast on 42% fg, while Aaron Gordon had clearly the best game with 27 pts/7 rbs/6 ast on 73% fg. Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray also had better games than Jokic, but I'm tired of typing numbers.
When Kyrie left the CAVS and K.Love became a 2nd option, he only averaged 14.9ppg, 10.2 rebounds and 1.6 assists in the 2018 Playoffs… So he was far from his prime, just like 2014 Wade and Bosh or 2021 and 2022 AD who were all injury prone and washed, even when he playedin 2021 and 2022, AD only averaged 21.8ppg, 7.9 rebounds and 1.6 blocks on 49%fg and 26% 3pts in 21, and then 23.2ppg, 9.9rebounds and 2.3 block on 53%fg and a horrible 18% from 3 in 22 …
So im sorry but when we say Lebron wasn’t lucky it’s the truth, even in 2015 both Kyrie and K.Love were injured for the Finals 🤷🏾♂️ So yeah Love was a good player in his prime, but his prime as a 1st option was in Minnesota, some people like you struggle to understand that the value of a player can drastically change depending on his role, i’d rather have Gobert, McDaniels, Josh Hart or OG Anunoby as a 3rd option if i already have 2 offensive beast like LBJ and Kyrie, it’s about chemistry and you can’t have elite chemistry without balance
Gordon doesn't do anything but feed off jokic LMAO. Horrible example. A better example is curry being saved by Klay game 6. Booker or KD helping each other. Dray Game 7. Shane battier scorching finals. Delly locking curry. Jrue locking book Paul
@@Anthonydu01630lbj recruiting love when he had Wiggins. No excuses
@@Anthonydu01630 I'm sorry, you're probably right but nothing you said has to do with what I said. When I said KLove was underrated I was talking about his last 4 years with the Timberwolves (prime) and his first three seasons with the Cavaliers (prime), where he avg'd: 23.5 pts / 13.7 rbs / 3 ast on 45/37/82 splits as a 1st option in Minneapolis and 17 pts / 10.2 rbs / 2.2 ast on 43/37/83 splits as a third option in a team with THREE SCORE FIRST PLAYERS (LBJ, JR Smith, KAI), and I wasn't talking about AD, Bosh and Wade at any point, what the hell do they have to do with my comment? Because they played with LeBron? That is a joke.
@@rockysalvatore435 he asked to talk about our FAVORITE PLAYER, not about any other one. Also Jokic had 4 assists only that game, so there was no way he kept being fed by Jokic THAT GAME. I remember watching that game 4, Jokic looked kinda rocky, got 5 fouls and I even thought he was fouled out until he came back late in the 4th, when his team was still up by double digits.
This video is absolutely fire, one of my new favorite goat debate videos, the whole time you were spot on. I'm honestly at the point with the goat debate where I'm just like "guys why can't we just enjoy basketball?" 😂😂 like seriously it's gotten so out of hand, it's gotta so agenda pushing, history revisionism, and disingenuous arguments it's gotten so toxic.
Pippen was a 7 or 8 time all star. No matter how you look at it he was one of the best players in the NBA for a decade.
A wonderful player imo. Such a shame what has happened in recent years.
So was Stockton but people call him a bum. Pippen was a All-Star from 92-97.
Yup yet Jordan stans give all the 🏆 credit to mj instead of the entire franchise.
And AD and Dwade are far better players then Pippen ever was and CBosh and Klove had higher primes/better stats and Kyrie was better in the Finals then Pip ever was
At this point, the GOAT debate is just a competition which fans are more toxic...Its just pointless
9:23 The obvious one for Jordan is the 1996 finals. He shot wildly inefficiently in that series, and Dennis Rodman cleaned up the offensive glass to keep the Bulls alive. Actually, Pippen also contributed on that end, with almost as many as Kemp, and even Jordan himself had more offensive boards than anyone on the Sonics except Kemp. I've been wondering, having not watched the series, if this was a deliberate strategy by the Bulls against the Sonics defense. Regardless, this is arguably the only time Jordan was individually outplayed in a Finals. (I say arguably because, looking at the stats, the Sonics had more balanced scoring, which to me is just the mirror of Rodman and Pippen collecting so many rebounds, but in a way that makes Jordan look worse statistically; practically speaking, there is little difference between "pass the ball to a worse scorer with a decent look" and "make a mediocre shot that gives you a good chance at an offensive rebound"). Regardless, Jordan definitely relied heavily on team rebounding to win that series.
much needed video!!! Johnny saving the basketball world, thank you!
ive talked about this before on my tiktok, it's annoying how people completely disregard talent and at the same time uplift talent to levels they shouldn't be at. people don't want to be honest anymore and simply be truthful because they want to push a certain agenda for their favorite player. it's like the saying goes "you can't argue with stupid people, they don't even know what they're talking about".
And they think they're smart while at it.
It's bc they can't debate. Liberal mindset. Colleges politics and sports media too now. Same ppl who can't debate sports can't debate politics but will even chime in on politics like players choice podcast lol
This is the biggest issue and it’s rooted in the pro-LeBron argument. For some reason, LeBron leading the 2007 and 2018 Cavs team’s to the finals have convinced too many people that he’s had less help than any other all time great. So much so, that when you point out how that 2007 Cavs team was one of the best defensive, best defensive, and better 3 pt shooting teams in the league, it holds no weight because people have been convinced that that team was made up of bums who shouldn’t have gotten that far anyway. This type of rejection of objective truth is the basis upon which many of these narratives and half-truths are built and it started when Bron fans couldn’t convince MJ fans (or fans of other players believed to be the GOAT at some time) that Bron was a superior player.
@@percyschannel4187thank you for saying this bro not enough people know about this
@@percyschannel4187 The 2007 Cavs had some ok role players, the problem is there was such a massive gap between LeBron and the #2 guy that his fans have tricked themselves into thinking the team was just wholesale garbage. They also like to ignore how they got to the Finals by going throw a 41 win Wizards team that didn't have their two best players, a 41 win Nets team whose best players were getting into the older side and had been discombobulated all year, and still pretty good but getting older Detroit team that didn't have Ben Wallace or Larry Brown. It's awful convenient how they like to ignore that considering how they're the ones that started the argument about competition. That 2018 run was pretty good though, and for my money should be getting the praise that the 2007 run gets.
This wasn't that big of an issue until LeBron entered the goat conversation. I think everyone held Scottie in high regard until the narrative changed that he was the only reason why Jordan was able to make all of his accomplishments. It puts people on the defensive and drives people to match such ridiculous statements.
So, yes, Stans always dilute the discussion but let's not pretend like we don't know where all this started. People love to talk about how Kobe was carried by Shaq and Jordan couldn't have done it without Kobe. Those same people are comfortable ignoring that LBJ joined up with top players, multiple times, in order to get his chips. I get your point but I think this rhetoric primarily comes from a certain camp.
Throw Curry in too. Him and LJ fans took what MJ fans did to the moon
The lebron community really messed it up they the ines that started the bs wit disrespecting players teams fanbase etc. Before the clown show we have today. MJ fans Kobe fans Magic fans etc had debates n respected the opposition the history of the game n didn't provide that "toxic" environment we have today. Now you have these little kids that religiously follow lebron n can't take any type of criticism bout their king cuz they'll disrespect you your family n your whole existence.
@@SilentMovements305it started with MJ fans that refused to accept that someone was coming for their goat. They refused to accept that somebody that wasn’t around 30 years ago was really good. They couldn’t accept change. Now it’s completely deluded with terrible Bron fans that’ll defend him to death and terrible MJ fans that act like he could never make a mistake. The goat debate is ruined 😾
Y'all are quick to say bron joined top players MULTIPLE times when that's STATISICALLY & HISTORICALLY inaccurate. Miami yes,but Cleveland & la were azz before he got there,matter fact even miami was a bottom feeder non playoff team before bosh & bron joined.
Cause Jordan didn’t even move without Pip..Bron was still taking his team to the finals without help
Problem is not with Kobe or Jordan
Problem is I read thousands of comments on YT, Facebook etc., that Lebron NEVER had help
His fanboys literally say that he had no help
When in fact he had more help than Kobe and Jordan
That's why we hate his delusional fanboys and dislike him
You're doing the exact same thing in this comment. Id argue that fanboys aren't the problem it's haters.
@@M2daBwitdaQinbetween thank you I was just about to say that he’s doing the exact same thing. He’s a hypocrite.
Just like Jordan fans claim MJ is the sole reason he won 6. Yall valid Pippen sucked until Jordan was able to make him better. Yall are no better than any other player's fan.
Whatever crap you say guys, whatever names you call me, can't take away the fact that Lebron when he retires, will not be even top ten. He got to pass to many legends of this sport
He had two great years in his career but he ruined it the moment he cheated the game
Pray that noone ever investigate the steroid rumors and finds out
He's a crying, flopping, whining, tantrum throwing, selfcentered egoist and will never be greater than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Kobe etc etc
Whatever you say, I couldn't care less when you support rhe biggest fraud this game has evervseen
Sounds like you made up your mind. Hate on my man.
There’s way less people saying ad should’ve been finals mvp but there’s a real argument for pau
2010 Gasol should have been finals MVP.
Great video, Jonny! I too am not a fan of how some will tear down another player just to boost their favorite player. It's terrible and I agree with you that it's disrespectful and so wrong.
To answer your question, one of my favorite players of all time is Tim Duncan. I'm not a Spurs fan, but have long been a fan of TD. As with the other stars you mentioned, he couldn't get it done alone either. We all know about Manu, Parker, Robinson, and Leonard. But, there were also others, like Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, etc. who played important supporting roles in helping the Spurs win championships.
Nice work again. Have a great week, Jonny!
I only recently realized that Tim Duncan would be 6-0 AND Kobe would have 6 rings if not for Ray Allen
We need a 'Top 10 weakest teams to win a championship' video
Hospital rings pretty much and Cinderella Barry Walton joker. Then Kobe. Lockout teams too. Asterisk kawhi bc if he's healthy that team is not legendary. Roster wise 14 spurs kinda Garbo lol
Competitive wise Steph KD GS. Middle school bullies
@@rockysalvatore435 you must be completely braindead
NBA fans are lucky to have had two of the most incredible and impressive athletes in sports history play in consecutive eras, meaning we have had 40 consecutive years of witnessing the best of the best the game will ever have to offer. And yet, we use that to diminish players, call people plumbers, call guys weak and diminish the game as a whole. We as fans should set this aside and love the game for what it is, watch its evolution and respect generations past for how they have shaped the game, and that way we can enjoy basketball to the fullest.
If you're talking about jordan, man- he's OVERRATED than a mtfkr!!!!
Never played a historically great team in his peak years and never beat one, EVER!!!!
When championships carry so much weight as a barometer for greatness, then the manner AND competition should always take the front seat for consideration and rankings‐ this is why jordan has the "plumbers" stigma attached to his namesake and legacy‐ HE NEVER EVEN SCRATCHED AGAINST ANY GREAT TEAM WITHOUT SCOTTIE PIPPEN AS A TEAMMATE OR PHIL JACKSON AS A COACH (*let's not forget custom-built stacked teams, rule changes, and special treatment by the referees)!!!!
@@New__TranZ__Order man what are you talking about lol
@@New__TranZ__OrderPlease seek help
Great Video jonny as Always
Jonny, I don’t think a lot of people were ready for this video. You made a lot of great points and the same bad faith arguments are being posted in the comments. Maybe one day we’ll all be able to look in the mirror to see if we are part of the problem.
Love your videos. Thanks for your hard work.
if we adding kobe to the goat debate then there’s absolutely no way yu can just ignore kd
The whole Pippen discourse is a natural reaction to Lebron fans constant overrating of the guy. I've literally heard James stans claim that Scottie is a top 10 player all time, and that he "carried" Jordan. Truth is, the guy is rated where he should be, top 50 player, one of the best second options of all time. He's never shown that he can be the number 1 guy on a title contender.
You haven't heard nobody being actually serious about Pippen being Top 10 of all time 🤦♂️. Stop lying nobody actually believe that shi.
@@kjjr3270 lol why would I lie? It's a common narrative among Bron stans that Pippen carried Jordan. Go look up fyf sports on RUclips, dudes one of the most popular nba youtubers. He literally made a video and asked "why is Pippen not considered top 10 of all time." So yea, there are actual Lebron stans out there that believe this. I'm guessing you're one as well 🤭.
@@MrAnthero7 literally said that nobody is serious about Pippen being Top 10. How tf did you get me thinking he is Top 10 now ffs? Lebron piped yo ho ahh mama or what? Not everyone is a Lebron you know that right?
@@kjjr3270 and I literally gave you an example of lebron fans claiming Pippen should have top 10 consideration. Can you read? Guess you ride that special section on the bus to school eh?
Who in the hell is saying Scottie is a top 10 player?? I’m attempted to just assume you made that up cuz that doesn’t even sound believable lmao
I swear pau gasol was a god at getting putbacks in clutch time…he did it against OKC in game 6 i believe, and also against the suns, and against the Celtics in game 7, its almost like a win win because kobe either makes it or misses it and then pau just scores anyway lol.
Per usual, you cooked in this one Jonny 🔥🔥🔥
Worst part of the Goat debate is when you think its being objective but its all subjective
Most NBA fans are casuals.
Awesome content as usual 💪
Great video fam! Great minds think alike. 👍
For context on Lebron beating the pistons in 07....
We were on the way to a rebuild. We lost our interior degense in Ben Wallace and picked up a washed 33 year old C Webb.
Sheed declined and we lived and died by Billups, Rip, and Prince.
That team won 3 more games than the evenly matched Cleveland team so when we talk about Cleveland, we need to not pretend tbey were a squad of bums.
Lebron was 22 give credit where it’s due and I’m not a lebron fan
@@olajawanmagee768Did he say that????
Preparing for a rebuild is a fallacy though, the Pistons would win 59 games the very next year
ah yes a rebuilding team that made it to the conference finals and was in the finals 2 years prior💀💀💀
They were a squad of bums tho lol
Great vid Jonny! I wholeheartedly agree.
That said - our guy D FISH was critical in that 09 finals as well as, a game that gets me choked up every time I watch, game 3 2010 finals. I love that man ❤
I used to tout how AI was the goat because he alone got the 76ers to the NBA Finals and won one..... without mentioning DPOY, Coach of the Year and 6th man of the year being a part of that squad
You skipped Kobe's first 7 years because Jerry West put him with Shaq on a team that was already in playoffs. 🤔
Belittling teammates is really a Lebron fan thing because here in Chicago, every player on the 91-93 and 96-98 Bulls are beloved down to the role players.
Lebron fans on the other hand call Dwayne Wade washed up, don't acknowledge that Wade outplayed Lebron in the 2011 Finals, don't acknowledge that Kyrie averaged 27 ppg in the Finals and outplayed Curruy who was the MVP, are trying to erase Kyrie's game winner from history by focusing on Lebron blocking Iguodala.
They ignore literal mathematics and won't admit that Kyrie's 3 would have STILL put Cleveland ahead even if Iguodala had scored because Iggy's layup would have only scored 2 points, they mock Anthony Davis for being injury prone, they shit on Kevin Love like he was a bum when Lebron begged to get him to Cleveland, don't acknowledge that Love's defense on Curry's last shot in Game 7 was critical, they treat Ray Allen and Chris Bosh like they never existed when those two guys kept the Heat alive in Game of 2013.
I don't know of any of Lebron's championship teammates who receive a warm welcome in any of Lebron's cities. Shit, not even Kyrie in Cleveland since Lebron fans turned on him immediately after he left the Cavs and diminished his role in coming back from 3-1 while simultaneously using Kyrie's injury as an excuse for losing in 2015.
He wasn't important in 2016 when you actual won, but was important in 2015 when you lost? Same applies to Kevin Love, who is never brought up besides in reference to him being hurt in 2015. Make it make sense.
Everything you said was a straight up lie. Literally nothing but lies lmao
Havent you seen a jordan meatrider trashing pippen ? U have to be kidding me
All this yap for what lmfao
@@ivblizzard3616Jordan fans put the media and LeBron lovers in their place about Pippen. Pippen was a bench player when he joined the Bulls. Pippen wasn't some savior that LeBron fans and the media try to tell you. Pippen wasn't a top 5 player in the league. Pippen literally has done nothing that needs to be downplayed compared to who LeBron, Magic, Kobe, Curry etc all had as teammates. Stop trying to make Pippen into more than what he was.
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 🤣🤣 Pippen and Phil definitely saved MJ. None of you would be talking about him now cause there would be no 6 rings.
Hey Johnny Im a new basketball creator on here and I just wanna say you were one of the people who inspired me to start doing this because I love talking about nba history just like you. Keep going man !
typical W content from the Goat 🔥🔥
Brother, you give real representation to the history and present state of the game. Your work is incredible and is real to people that truly love the game. Please keep it up
@jonnyarnett you prove yet again why you are the clear GOAT of basketball content creators on RUclips. Honestly a large portion of basketball fans are ruining basketball with these stupid debates. Just appreciate these guys greatness! Greatness comes in different forms not just 1 path to greatness.
Yes but no one and it was obvious by his stats that Pippen was NEVER gonna be in the Top 75 without MJ there. MJ was already being talked about as a “HOF” player by the year 89.
I will never put Bron over Kobe and especially over Jordan. I just can’t and won’t do it.
KoRapist is not above LeBron lil bro lmfao, Jordan you can argue it - definitely not KoShit
Kobe has no reasonable arguments to be put above Bron. You are just letting your emotions get into these conversations, can't even be rational as a grown man. Kobe is not even Top 5.
Mj 1-9 without Pip? Show me Pip first playoff game stats 😂 Nick Wrong fooled the fools …
Pretty sure MJ woulda been more than 1/9 even if he had no SF on the team on a four-man floor lol.
Gawk gawk gawk gawk gawk gawk gawk. You should marry mj, he has a problem attracting real affection @@Cannon4545
MJ stans seething. MJ isn't embodiment of nineties era or culture. He's just MJ. He's not your childhood. Stop worshipping. I'm sure you loved more than nineties hoops lol.
@@rockysalvatore435 You feel better now ? You spoke a bunch of nothing just now 😂 My comment triggered you it’s ok you will survive fool lol
@@rockysalvatore435 Thank God you not in the media 😂 Dumbest opinion I ever heard 😂😂😂 Mj isn’t the 90s lol I didnt even mention the 90s in my comment Einstein 🤡
No need for me to give examples .. You definitely knocked this one out the park .. I'm very glad you addressed this behavior from some of these fans. Too many inviduals commenting, who know a lot about nothing. Keep up the great work, Jonny.
I was a Cavs fan during Lebron’s second stint (Kyrie’s my favourite active player, rip Mamba)
The ‘trash’ narrative for K Love is casual at best and vindictive at worst.
Love was an All-Star 2 of the 4 years of Lebron’s second stint in cle
He averaged 17 10 and 2 assists on 37% 3pt 84%ft
During the playoffs he averaged 15 10 and 2 on 40% 3pt shooting on 6 attempts a game, so not even a small sample Love was elite as a shooter and rebounder
If you watched Cavs games Love’s rebounding, shooting and full court passes were integral
More importantly him guarding the stronger 4s meant Bron could guard the 3s, save energy and avoid injury
Love was far from trash or a scrub. He was a back to the basket guy who occasionally popped who was forced to be a perimeter guy and was elite during the playoffs
That's all we want. For fans of who to be honest and objective, but most fans aren't anymore if they favor a specific player. I became a Jordan and Kobe fan, but I grew up rooting for the teams that they consistently beat (bad boy pistons and the Sacramento kings of the early 2000s). So saying anything negative about them doesn't affect me the same way it does for most of their passionate fans, but I do get annoyed with most LeBron's fans that don't use logic or when the logic that they are trying to use gets used to prove a flaw, they tend to try to manipulate the argument to move the goalpost
These kinds of debates used to be fun but now they are just toxic.
I get that Kobe is your favorite player but please leave him out of GOAT conversations
THANK YOU
If Kobe doesn't belong in the goat conversation, then neither does Lebron. Kobe was a better player.
@@blazedbeye3412what XD
Great overall segment. The absolute worse thing or scenario about the debate is the actual debate itself.
LeChoke Blames and his media have been trying to diminish every great player before him for years now. You need to blame him for this garbage.
Pippen was not the second-best player in the league when he was with Chicago, but he has a strong argument as the best small forward in the league during that time. So Chicago had maybe the two best players at their respective positions during their dynasty, much like Shaq and Kobe.
The difference between MJ's help and Lebron's help is MJ made his teammates better during practice while Lebron's teammates were already 1 before they became his 2 or 3. Smh
Who did he make better 🤔
I don’t think anybody could have made those Cavs teams any better.
And what were they doing ad the '1'? Not even making the playoffs or getting bounced the first round lol
@@melvynsngltn27Um Scottie Pippen would have been a an ok player if he never went to the bulls. MJ made him become a great player and a champion. Lebron literally scouts already made great players to play with and turns them into a spot up shooter 🙄. Then blames them when they eventually lose.
@@nelsoncortez29 why didn't Jordan make anyone else great
Scottie is a top 50 players for sure. But I feel like he is a bit overhyped. He was great in the regular season but didn’t elevate and even sometimes underperformed during the playoffs.
Comment section did not pass the vibe check that Jonny was hoping for. Sad to see.
For debates like this social media has just ruined it with how much hate someone can get for saying something so simple and then it gets taken in the complete opposite direction of what was originally said
There should have never been an argument about who had help and who didn't. Every star needs help, no one can win a title by themselves. In my opinion, the arguments should be: How each star got his help? How much help they had? And what they did with the help once they got it?
Even then it would be exclusive to eras.
Yo Jonny. I hate the GOAT debate. I hate the top # all time lists. Like, if we took all the best players out of their eras and stuck them all in a bubble for a year teaching them how to play in this (or any other) era, they'd all be f***ing awesome, because they are all him. And it'd be glorious.
The goat debate has been the worst debate in basketball for a decade now. Everyone knows all the stats, everyone knows all the facts and everyone has their goat. You're never gonna convince someone otherwise who the goat is, so it's a pointless topic imo.
I agree, no one is coming to the debate with an open mind, their minds are decided and they'll fit the arguments to ensure their conclusion.
Nice picture, but Kobe has NEVER been in the debate
My favorite moment as an example of what you’re discussing in this video is Kyrie in Game 7, 2016. Blew my mind when he hit that 3 over Curry. Not a big Kyrie fan since then tbh, but that shot will forever be remembered by Cavs fans, and Lebron fans too
Kyrie hit the biggest shot in Cleveland history and Bron tried to trade him after 😂
@@coreyc2528what??
Lebron fans more-so reference Lebron blocking Iguodala more than they reference Kyrie's shot. Kyrie was never given much credit in 2016, and instead the 2016 Finals has been purely used for Lebron's GOAT case.
Kyrie outplayed Curry who was the MVP, hit the game winner, and averaged 27 ppg but literally none of this is ever mentioned. Instead,
I see Lebron blocking Iguodala every where, even when Game 7 is posted on RUclips, Lebron's block is often times the screenshot.
Despite the fact that Cleveland would have still won the game regardless because Iguodala's blocked shot would have only counted for 2 points and Kyrie hit a 3.
Lebron fans then turned around and shitted on Kyrie for YEARS after he left Cleveland and only started to acknowledge Kyrie again once Lebron started begging Kyrie to come to the Lakers. Keep in mind that Lebron fans were the ORIGINAL Kyrie haters. The Covid stuff came much much later.
@@HavocSpida101 You see why we can't have mature conversations about basketball, anymore.
@@Harun-cd6jzisn't that shot talked about as the greatest shot in finals history? Or shii playoff history???
Not a lakers fan but that photo of Kobe against KG and PP is cold
Jordan & Kobe stans are annoying, but Bron stans are actually the most ignorant and insufferable NBA fanbase in the community.
I'm a Steph Curry fan and I agree. Lebron stans dont even know how to fight
nah im sorry kobe fans are so much more annoying. They act like the guy is christ returned just cause he died in the least relatable way possible. "dumb" Lebron stans are mostly just actual children
It's actually Steph curry fans. Zero ball knowledge
@@sumnahlennon5449bet. You guys run away from debate and play victim and sensitive all the time lol. You guys cry at criticism but don't counter points and privilege
@@zacharyendermanyou can't debate. Goalposts mover
Probably the worst part is that it's two sides, at least one of which (and often both) usually has only really ever watched _one_ of the two players being discussed.
Also the BS knocks on jordan for "not beating Bird" (etc) and "not winning until Scottie came", which ignores the fact that he had no team.. or the "Lebron took his team to the finals immediately.." while ignoring that the Eastern conference was far easier by that point to make it to the finals in.
i know both fanbases do it. But even then MJ is still better than Lebron. But that doesn't mean LeBron isn't just as good if not better than him. It just means that I'd rather have one guy over anyone else. I respect both of them and they have pathed their own journey to basketball immortality. The GOAT debate is preference honestly.
Couldn’t have said it any better. Nothing but straight facts. It’s annoying when people get into their over the top bias with their “guy” by tearing down the opposing “guy” just to build theirs up. It’s cool to have someone as the goat over another just as long as they’re respectful to the other one.
You said Mj better, then say that it doesn't mean that LBJ isn't just as good if not better??? Do you even read what you write
@@egrassa1480 Right? Lol
It's a legitimate fact that MJ is a better basketball player than LBJ. That doesn't take away from what LBJ has accomplished but MJ was obsessed with being the best basketball player in the world and I just don't get that same drive from LeBron (he wants to be seen as that but doesn't put in the work for it). That's why MJ is in a different plain of existence compared to LeBron. LeBron is a lot closer to Magic Johnson than he is Jordan simply because I think LeBron is a very similar player to Magic.......comparing him to Jordan was never a fair fight because LBJ just can't touch that.
The fact that the game is 5 on 5 is the reason why the "goat" talk will always be elusive. Even in Tennis and Boxing there are debates about who is the greatest. It is far overdue for us to learn how to respect each other's opinions and in the process actually learn some things about other players!!!
Very good video. Everything in context. More help than anyone else in the History of the game.
Love, Bosh both in or entering their primes took several steps back and get crucified for this.
And Pippen/Gasoline get absolutely dumped on and trashed by the respective fan base lol are we going to ignore Shaq gifting Kobe 3 rings as well? Lebron has never had a player with the talent level of Shaq. What a disingenuous argument at best
@@mosstwig3591This is what’s wrong with Bron fans
The debate only included help and competition when Lebron fanboys realized there was no argument they couldn't make to claim Lebron was actually better than Jordan.
Yup so you move the goal post or change the arguments criteria
It really , I’ve watched both & think LeBron is better. Just a more complete player. Has nothing to do with help because both had plenty.
@@Supreme36074 At what exactly?
Personally I think Bron is better, but the only reason I bring up help is when MJ fans show retarded stats like how many teammates that were all stars at one point played with Bron and then they show Westbrook, Melo, Shaq, etc. and mfs like Larry Hughes.
Isn't that what Jordan "fan boys" do? Don't they just bring up championships and how LeBron always stack the deck? And aren't they the ones who always try to twist the narrative and make it seem like Jordan was the sole reason his team won 6 chips?
Shii this video wasn't even a Jordan vs LeBron debate 😂😂. Y'all NBA fans, every single one, are such sheeps to dishonest narratives. The way y'all mystify NBA players and diminish others to fit y'all narratives is sickening.
The most annoying thing about the goat debate (and basketball discussions in general) is the ignoring of context. E.g. the time machine argument and over-emphasis on stats.
The worst part of the GOAT debate is that is a manufactured debate. There’s no debate, MJ is the goat. Most important player in the history of sports, not basketball, sports. No other player has mean as much for the world wide cultural zeitgeist than Jordan. The end.
facts
Ali. Jim Brown. Jackie Robinson. Kareem. No, your history.
@@bishop4298 my respects to all of them, specially Jim Brown and Jackie. But no one was bigger, worldwide, zeitgeist wide, like Jordan. And that was in the pre internet era when the internet wasn’t still as hyper connected as today.
But maybe you have a point with Ali.
@@bishop4298know how to spell know
Being popular doesn't make you good at the thing you're doing. Michael Jordan is probably the one of most influential athletes of all time but this has nothing to do with how good of a player he was
Its MJ vs Bron only at this point. Love Kobe, but his 1 MVP and the fact that he wasn't even the best player on over half of his rings (i know he wasn't an ordinary 2nd option, but still) shouldn't have him in the goat conversation. I mean if you have a player like MJ who plays the same position and clears him so obviously, why tf should you even be considerd for that? Bron clears, Kareem clears, Magic clears, Duncan clears. Steph, Bird etc. have reasonable arguments to be put above him as well. Kobe is not a Top 5 player and its completely fine you people need to embrace that. Top 10 nothing more nothing less.
If Kobe didn't step up big against the spurs, Shaq doesn't get his finals MVPs.
If Shaq wasn't drawing double and triple teams Kobe wouldn't of been doing any of that.
@@jacoblee5796people don’t understand how easy Shaq made it for his guards until they learned to dominate on their own. He drew all the defenses attention. Leaving plenty of room to operate if you were an elite wing.
Shaq was so much better than Kobe, he should be the 1 in this GOAT conversation with Lbj and MJ not Kobe, go look at his stats, only Lbj and MJ had a higher peak, and you can even argue Shaq peak was just as high
@@Supreme36074thank you and wasn’t any good guards in the west at that time Kobe supposed to cook those dudes 😂😂
@@Anthonydu01630You realize Kobe avg more PPG more All NBA more All Defense and of course the nail in the coffin to Kobe over Shaq 5>4 rings
EXACTLY!! Great video! (to your petition, I think Rodman should be in this conversation with Pippen and MJ), with Williams we have Weber and with JoKic we have Gordon).
Kobe actually shouldn't be part of the debate, as Shaq isn't. Kobe was a carbon copy of MJ and none of his advanced stats are as good as the MJ
Agreed
Facts. Stats and eye test. Tells us there is a large separation between MJ and Kobe. It's not close
Shut the he'll up!"Eye test!! I'm building a team, I'm starting with Mj or kobe! Both are the ultimate Finishers
@@samuelm2098 it's your team. Kobe is very good, but he's not MJ. Athletically he is several steps behind..speed, strength, quickness, hand size etc. All limitations in comparison to MJ.
@@samuelm2098No way you actually think that Kobe would be better for your team than LeBron 💀
When Jason terry step up in game 6 of the 2011 NBA finals when Dirk was having a off night. He basically kept the mavericks in game til Dirk finally got his shot going in the 4th quarter 😊
Sad how some people watched the video and then comment doing the same thing you are talking about
Exactly 💯 it's sad asf. And they'll complain about bron fans but do the exact same thing. But I realize that it's not bron fans who's toxic. It's NBA fans that are toxic.
Kudos to you. Nice to see honest objectivity. Gotta keep the bias out to find the truth
Lebron fans are the worst, too them lebron did it all by himself. It's weird fans like them thts delusional
You’re part of the reason why the goat debate is stupid. You’re only argument is against LeBron. James fans were Jordan fans are terrible and Colby friends are terrible.
@redbogaming6009 who is "Colby" ??? 😂😂😂
Kobe fans are beyond delusional thinking he is even Top 5. Thinking he is better than Bron or Top 3 is just embarassing at this point.
@@koolkai4299 dude you know what I meant to say it was a voice text error Kobe
Love this vid!
I never understood knocking down a player using their teammates in a TEAM sport LOL
Honestly, the worst part of the goat debate are the nicknames. Letrash, Lebum, legoat, my glorious king. And on the other side you have literature such as jorfraud, jortrash, jorgoat, jorgambler (yes, I’ve heard this one before). I’m about 99% sure these are just kids who want to sound funny, if you’re going to sound stupid, at least come up with something clever. Like the MJ nicknames just sound disgusting.
Bynum was slowly becoming superstar but injuries took him to early
Yeah that's a fair point. He was solid and right on the verge of stardom when it happened
No that was in 2012. Legit all star yes.
The whole GOAT debate is annoying. Its just fanboys having nothing better to do than make stupid arguments in their head why their daddy "GOAT" is better than other players. It was kind of fun to discus it in 2018 but today you realize there are to many sick people that have a deification problem.
The real difference between LeBron and Mike, and the real reason why LeBron will never be anywhere near the greatest ever is that Every single player that plays with LeBron has to make sacrifices and is a worse version of themselves for playing with LeBron. Michael, Larry Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, Kobe and Shaq all made the players around them better. Bron is the only great who never does that.
@Ejohns1004 not only are you proving you’re part of the problem but you’re just flat out wrong. Please for the sake of basketball stop watching and discussing it.
Lebron not making the players around him better? You definitely never watched a game of his saying this blasphemy. Also if you always need to double Shaq no shi people gonna be open and you tryna tell me Kobe had a bigger impact on his teammates than Lebron?
@@michaelmirabella8420LeBron dosent make his teammates better. He joined esteem All-Star/All-NBA players. The 3rd guy has to sacrifice numbers and their style of play to fit LeBron because LeBron can only play one way. We saw this with the avengers. They should've been blowing out the comp. LeBron fans don't like the truth.
Thanks for appreciating Gasol. Massively underrated. Work ethic like Kobe, which I'm sure is the reason they got along so well and why the won 2 rings.
Kobe and mj never said "that made me the greatest player of all time" that's the main difference ..
Kobe literally can't even think of saying that if MJ is around. Lebron actually has a case instead of Kobe.
@kjjr3270 LeBron belongs nowhere near the goat conversation. He's not even top 15 to me. Way over rated and over hyped
@@blazedbeye3412you just sound like a hater now tbh
@@staxmontana4not at all, but I've watched enough basketball in my life to know that this dude isn't worthy of half the coverage he gets.
@@blazedbeye3412 obviously don’t if you talking like that
Kobe’s a legend but his rather lack lustre finals performances (wouldn’t have one in the top 20) is the reason he would be 9-12 on my GOAT list. Still awesome
Agreed, Kobe is an all time great, no doubt. But I got Kobe ranked outside of the top ten.
Kobe does have 5 rings but in most of his finals appearances he played mid to horrid. I feel he gets way more credit than he deserves and not enough criticism, even though he was a big part of the team.
Jordan helped groom Scottie Pippen into what he became. He was a softy. LeBron quit because he didn't know how to win, so he tucked tail and ran to Wade.
LeBron even said Wade taught him how to win 🤣🤣 LeBron, and Kevin Durant are two of the most pathetic basketball players I've ever seen.
You a clown bro 😂
@zaytoovalid Why 🤔 did I upset you, little kid 🤣🤣 FOH
@@Adaptation49.42 Groom Pippen ? You nuts bro for real
@ivblizzard3616 Do your research, little kid 😬 FOH
@@Adaptation49.42 You are the one who should do the research actually
I play a lot of pickup basketball and the best players always want to team up with other good players because they want to win so I never understood why NBA players get so much hate for having other great players on their teams. Everyone wants to win and you need good players to win.
Great Video Jonny! Always speaking facts 😤
🤦🏻 god, what drives me insane is this false notion of ‘objectivity’ conflating a few dumb Michael Jordan fans as if they’re equivalent to the fanbase who literally have reporters digging up random games from 1988 to try and discredit Jordan’s DPotY. That in itself is a dishonest conversation. As a Cavs fan and former LeBron fan, I can acknowledge Lebron played about as good as anyone could under that kind of pressure in games 5-7 of the 2016 Finals. I can acknowledge game 5 of the 2007 ECF is one of the greatest all time takeovers of a game we’ve ever seen. What I can’t acknowledge is that ‘Michael Jordan fans’ are just as bias and delusional about MJ’s greatness as LeBron fans are about his. Framing the conversation as if they are is not being objective, it’s being disingenuously neutral. I honestly wouldn’t even care if weren’t calling out other ppl for being disingenuous at the same time…
2023 Eastern conference finals Derrick White
The worst part about the goat debate is that Lebron is not really goat material.
3,5 chips with 3 different super teams.
He's a great player no doubt about it, but not close to the goat MJ.
Ehhh calling the 2020 Lakers a super team is pretty generous, more like 2 super teams and one championship team
Unfortunately the phrase “super team” has last its meaning. Lebrons never been on a super team. Big 2 or 3 yes. Not super teams
saying 3.5 is so delusional going against what the nba say to shit on a player is pathetic
The Cavs and Lakers were not no damn super team 🤦🏾♂️
@@_will795Could the first year he was on the Heat be the best team he was on outside of him?
And does that make the superteam definition for you?