Thought I was going crazy when, in my first playthrough, I used Lapis and she was INSANE. Weird that no one seemed to mention her. Didnt know if i got lucky or not.
I had to learn how to meet Lapis on her terms. I tried to crit build her but her crit rate is bad. I put her on lances as a hero and she was useful. I heard good things about wyvern rider but had too much fun double back up shennegins
The most helpful Engage tier list I’ve seen. Even just giving the tiers descriptions (not S, A, B, etc.) is a big help. Your justifications are detailed but to the point and you’ve given me a lot of interesting build ideas. Thanks!
I like this approach than a conventional tier list, really feels like you go into the characters expressing their strengths and weaknesses before getting into them
I actually think diamant is a really rewarding unit I played deployed him in every map since he was playable and gave him the ike emblem he was a monster in tanking physical damage and dealing damage he even one rounded some end game armor knights with a silver sword so plus he doubled everything except for a few pegasus knights and swordmaster. I personally would put him higher
This is the first tier list I've mostly agreed with! One fun note about Lindon: he's capable of Vantage/Wrath with magic and is probably the only character who can do it. Forge up and crit engrave an Elthunder and he'll have +20 Crit on just about every enemy after he joins. It's not an *incredible* build but he's uniquely capable of a 3-range Vantage/Wrath setup and it's silly fun.
Your description of Celine snowballing perfectly matched up to my experience. Was unstoppable and then all of a sudden was not worth keeping around. Great video- definitely earned a new subscriber!
My Celine was really great all game... kinda weird, I have heard more recently she's considered bad. For me Alfred I wanted to use but he fell off faster than I expected.
Since I used London my first run, I’ll give my opinion. I used him as a filler and while he was nothing special, he is indirectly buffed by how good magic and staves are in engage. Honestly he contributes about the same amount as mauvier. That said he has the same stats as my like 12/3 Anna who I benched in chapter 13, so his utility is more a testament to the power of the freeze staff then anything else.
Also halbedier Louis is really sad, he loses most of his defense but is still too slow so he ends up taking 40 damage a combat, plus pincer attack isn’t like quick riposte so he still gets doubled. Additionally his dex and lack are low so it feels like it’s only a matter of time before he missed and gets crit by a sword user. Being able to one round with a rides and is nice, but then he’s looking at ~50% hit rates, and you don’t really want to spend an engrave on him. I’ve kept him around as a meme unit but the lack of exp has only made him look worse and worse, at least he counts as a backup unit. Pannete:Most of the crit stuff pannete can do Kagestu does better. Wyvern Kagestu with Ike is tangy enough for some sword users to not attack, still has ~70 crit at full health and can double for higher damage output, while still having enough strength to one shot. He basically has the stats to do the wrath 100% crit strat while also taking single digit damage and also having 40 speed via speedtaker. With this build vantage is unnecessary as physical attacks don’t hurt you anyway. Lucina; Flying bonded shield is incredible, especially when combined with Lyn ivy. Chapter 12 let’s ivy pretend to be Camilla, one rounding enemies while taking 0 damage in return. Fogado; radiant bow fogado is good, but even better is brave bow fogado with Erika. Since Erika does true damage after defense, brave weapons do a roof damage, and often can one round armor knights. Fogado is the best user of this strategy as he is very fast and can attack from 2 range, allowing him to avoid counterattacks and canter away from the front line. It takes a long time to come online but fogado is fine until then and by chapter 19 he can one round etie and Gerald with a brave bow, and he can chip half the health of any enemy. I would highly recommend, especially if you’re using fogado anyway. Also sorry for writing an essay but unit discussion is interesting and this unit guide is very good with the only placement I disagree on being Amber. Don’t feel like you have to read all this. TL:DR nerdy unit discussion.
I find Timerra makes a pretty good enemy phase tank on maddening. Enemies will just ignore your units with too much Def or Avo, while Timerra has just enough to get targeted and survive, doing decent counterattack damage.
Yeah, Timerra is scales solid into lategame even with little investment. You shouldn't ever be relying on sandstorm but it is nice to proc occasionally. Her build is awful, but as long as you keep her on lighter weapons (the new free lance from the well is very solid on her), she's got enough defence to take minimal but not no damage, enough speed to not get doubled excluding by Swordmaster, Wolf knights, Fliers and some of the faster Heroes throughout the whole game (again, as long as you don't give her heavy weapons); and enough Avo to dodge a solid enough amount to mitigate some damage. Ike is an awful fit for her, but Leif and Hector with the DLC are very solid on her with nearly 0 competition for them.
@@Edgeperor I think Timerra has too good of avoid and not good enough defense to make proper use of Ike. She's a mix of traditional tank and dodge tank, I'd rather give Ike to Louis or Panette, since they aren't really caring about losing their avoid from Laguz Friend
I'm fairly convinced that Yuri (with Fetters of Dromi) will never be outclassed as a dancer 💀 completely and utterly broken because he can also dodge tank.
Timerra is the only one I disagree with - I think you're undervaluing her tanking, possibly because of her build issues that you kind of have to just suck up and not give her a heavy weapon until you get Lief back for her. Lindon probably is in the correct place having used him myself. He's got an okay gimmick vantage wrath elthunder build, and is an okay contributer with either dire thunder or Thoron/Elthunder Draconic hex. Edit: Otherwise, great list! I much prefer this way of rating units to forcing the arbitrary and unhelpful letter rankings.
I buyed the game a few days ago and i started at madening difficulty because im expirenced in FF games. I remember playing fates was like solving math problems XD Was like switch class every 2 or 3 level to another to get the skills from that class then switch to another and at level 18 switch to your final class for that skills. Also watch growth rates and to make godlike childs was math too. But i have to say i dont like the chars design in that game that mutch. Fates had some of the coolest chars ever for me like Takumi, Camilla, Saizo, Kagero, Nina, Velouria and so on ;) Also most of the chars had cool or strange personality like Odin, Midori, Forrest, Shiro and so on. In this game every one is a cry baby and excuses himself in like every dialog its like a telenovela XD
You mentioned Alear as a Wyvern. This also makes them one of the best Lucina users, especially if you are using Chloe and Ivy, or reclassed Kagetsu to Wyvern. I've had flyer balls tank huge swaths of enemies on maddening. The enemy AI will prioritize archers on them as well, even tho they can't actually kill because if bonded shield making it easier to move your backline into position.
Fantastic video. In terms of presentation probably the best tier list available. Just very clear and comprehensive, covering the good and the bad and some potential roles. Not getting too stuck on a single aspect of a characters that are amazing or terrible. Tier lists are of course always going to a bit subjective, and the rating system is different per person but I think this is a very fair list.
I started a hard mode random growths playthrough (i know, not maddening, not real, call me out, whatever) Wanted to use alfred cause he turned out fine for me on normal Man hit one speed level out of the 12 levels i gave him. The rng screw is hilarious.
I think I'm using Amber wrong. After watching this guide I decided to use him in a run through, but hes not that tanky, not that strong, not that fast, so I'm struggling to have him be useful on player or enemy phase. I Gave him a bunch of the stat boosts too... I Have him as a halberdier right now (not using brave lance yet though), am around ch 15/16, and have the Ike emblem on him. Is he only useful as halberdier with brave lance?
I reached ch13 on maddening yesterday, which I dreaded because of the fliers swooping down from out of the fog of war. I decided to try out using Kagetsu and Zelkov for the first time ever. They were still at base level and class. I gave Kagetsu a spd tonic and a bond ring that gave him +1 spd. He proceeded to kill every single flier all by himself with a steel sword while standing in foliage. Meanwhile Zelkov temporarily equipped the Lyn Emblem and Yunaka's old Micaiah engraved dagger. He singlehandedly led the rest of my team down south to save the house and act as a speedy frontliner that baited out the enemy wolf riders and sword fighters from the shadows while applying poison. Needless to say, after these two trivialized majority of ch13 I now wholeheartedly agree that they're very strong. I can't believe I gimped my first maddening run by skipping over them last time.
Recently finished my blind maddening playthrough. Something I appreciated about Saphir is her rather insane starting Build stat of 15. She wasnt stellar or anything but I could at least throw a +Hit Tomohawk on her and not need to care for the weight all that much, a trait I think only Diamant shared in my playthrough.
With Jean, the difference from taking him from martial monk to lvl 10 vs axe fighter lvl 10 (the highest pre-promo str growth class), is 2 str (1.8 if you want to be technical, a growth of 10(20) vs 20(40)). Of the promoted classes, only berserker exceeds 20(40), and between the levin sword and the radiant bow, Jean isnt throwing away what magic he has either.
This is definitely arbitrary, but shouldn't great return, low investment be a higher tier than great return, high investment? Or is the implication that GRHI has a higher return in general?
On the Rosado thing: if you’re, hypothetically, like me, and didn’t really do many paralogues until after getting him, you still have a ton of time to level him up, even though it’s technically in the late midgame when he comes. His str, speed, and def starts absolutely snowballing if you do this, and he can easily get 30-35 strength and speed and defense in the 30s by the end of the game
The thing with Timera is that, if you lean into using her primarily as an enemy phase tank to protect your backline, you don't have to worry to much about whether sandstorm procs or not, but it's usually a huge swing when it does, and if you position Great Aether well, you can pretty safely bank on at least one or two surprise procs when the enemy density gets high in the late game.
I probably should have mentioned Timerra tanking, but I don't think it changes her category. Timerra in Picket has very replicable bulk. It's about the same as Goldmary in Hero (who is also brave assisting), or Mauvier in base class. She has the advantage of being doubled by less things, but if you really want a late game tank, there are lots of options that provide similar or better results without having to deal with Timerra's weak early game. For example, Mauvier instantly reclassed to great knight has higher def and res compared to a late game Timerra in picket for the low cost of a late game second seal. He gets doubled by more things, but in the ike tanking role, his higher defenses more than make up for it. Timerra can Ike tank, but it's not that important of a job to begin with (I'd rather give Panette Ike to kill things with) and a lot of units can do it well enough, most with either less investment, or while providing good offense for the entire game. She needs to fix her offense to stand out in Picket IMO (which is doable, but she needs some help). Notably the Hector Emblem actually fixes a lot of problems for Timerra, when considering DLC (free doubles on enemy phase, extra build, vantaqe if you activate next to lyn etc).
@@actuallizard I've been pairing her with roy and I'm having great success as she gets a boatload of stats when engaging which boosts her dmg and proc rate on sandstorm, on top of baseline 10 health / 4 str. It does take a while until you unlock roy again, though. Keeping ike on her is probably her best option but that ring is probably contested anyway.
I'm of the mind that Ike is a bit of a nonbo on Timerra, 50% less damage isn't all that great when it comes at the cost of a high Speed unit's Avoid. I feel like she shines a lot more with Lief, Roy, Hector, Marth, Tiki, Edelgard, etc.
@@sympathism I really like that idea, and it's probably disgusting if you inherit Resolve after the Ike phase in midgame! I feel like you need at least 4 units who can survive as tanks deployed by the time you get to end game anyway. Timerra's stats resemble Goldmary's in hero, as Lizard says, but, if you inherit more defensive skills, the enemy phasing crack-backs with Sandstorm serve a radically different function than brave-assist support. It's tempting to play Timera as a support like that because her strength is low, but that makes her weak and hard to gain XP on. Picket can still assist, which is great utility, but it also randomly hits stuff for like a hundred damage when you get lucky. Maybe I'm biased towards rng-manipulation builds (played Enhance Shaman in WoW), but the more I look at varied opinions about this game, the more I think that "What you appreciate appreciates." If someone loves chain assist effects and incremental damage adding up, then that's going to seem like a wiser build; I like big surprises, like Sandstorm and Luna procs.
@@thepurge7964 haha its a head scratcher for sure. There are clear drawbacks to most if the personal classes. No secondary weapon, succeseur is skill capped at 22 and picket gets 0 build and is str screwed half the time, so you do need to invest in forged silver stuff engraved and forged with weight bonuses and all that jazz. I was for example thinking of promoting arthur to a warrior asap and then see how the run goes. His growths should become insane then, with access to bows. My alear is a warrior for more than half of my run and became my best unit surprisingly.
Try handing Timerra a Javy +4 and give her Speed+3 + Dex+4 and she will double almost everything in enemy phase :) She is a better tank than regular tanks cause at some point they just get ignored for their hogh DEF / AVO.
How is Anna a Project? I took her into two chapters after recruitment to get her to level 10 using the regular Micaiah heal strat, then Master Seal her into Warrior and immediately Second Seal her into Mage Knight. With a levin sword and an early Elfire (upgraded Fire) she carries your ass for the rest of the game since her Mag stat only gets better and better :) I consider that medium investment cause she needs no inherited skills or anything expensive until lategame.
Whith dlc the tier of early game filler, can be great return thanks to tiki, veronica and edelgard, that give more stats per level, more sp, more exp, whith tiki and veronica or edelgard you can have a powerhouse of levels and habilites, plus an early acense of clas give you tons of stats
I might actually think that Bunet is one of the worst units in the game. It's a shame, too. He could have been in the "IT'S F^CKING RAW" tier, but the game does not allow for weapon forge names.
I think you were a bit too unfair with alcryst. Luna brave bow is only one route to take, i personally gave him a killer bow and having him one round enemies that would normally take 0 dmg was so funny. I know lyn is also a highly sought out emblem but he synergizes really really well with her. I think the returns you get are really high if you invest a few refinements tbqh
Especially since forging a Killer Bow is very cheap compared to Silver/Brave. Just give him an Eirika/Corrin engraving and watch him crit most of the time
if you like using chloé, i gotta reccomend a martial master reclass. having a second qi adept is not only just nice, but her personal skill and growths synergize really well with the class. you get the silver-spirit art for free the chapter right before you get access to art proficiency(w/ no DLC), so she can use that to great effect. or you could refine it into the flashing fist art. alternatively, sigurd engraving the ch9 steel-hand art and then refining it to silver is a decent option for alear until you get chloé to martial master, and the -1 WT and +1 MT on the then refined flashing-fist art helps her not lose out on one-rounds until you can slap erika on her
Jean is fun. I'd personally say he's just better than Framme or at least has a better outlook than her. I just used him as a staffer/chain guarder and even brought him back after mid game as chain guarding is really helpful for baiting, or avoiding being one rounded (unless the enemy crits on the follow up hit).
I enjoy using Jean. I agree that switching him in for Framme is viable once he arrives. It doesn't really matter that he's underleveled since both of them are just healing/chain guarding anyway.
I'm surprised Alcryst isn't higher on the list. He's my personal MVP in my current Maddening run. He did immediately fall off on both my hard mode runs, but that's basically because I under-used him by merit of him being an archer.
this is ten times better then any other list ive seen, some additional notes: alear - micaiah ring is has a +1 range for staffs on dragon units, rewarp is available for ch9-11. alear's +1 range enables shenanigans like 1 turn ch9 and skipping right behind the door in ch10 on turn 1. getting staff prof for 11 and reclassing means alear can rewarp themselves to the escape point there as well. alear also just supports everyone so the personal skill is even better hortensia - does need 4 lvls for her class skill, and on maddening that will at least be a few chapters seadall - is one of the few strong no investment units that is part of the critical support group, giving +3 crit for C tier and +6 crit for A. this can help crit fishing with either chloe/kage, less notably pandreo/amber/alear/veyle very solid support list and the rest of the crit boosting supports need some investment on top of supporting almost no one relevant amber - can get a knife prof and just insta promote wolf knight fixing both his speed base and growth. I do think he requires a bit more investment since the speed of the chapters after he joins are so fast it's easy for him to get 0-1 levels in 4 chapters chloe - similarly can take a lance prof and promote into wyvern instead, this is super worth noting since it not only basically doubles her str growth but it is also gives +4 str/+3 def/ +4 hp/+2 bld. it doesnt give speed and still feels like a thracia promotion louis - also has a solid option by pivoting to griffin as his personal bases are actually just good and it gives him the speed he needs, while it does hurt his bld he is one of the only characters with good build growth or you can just take the hit and get the extra prof, make him sword griffin, which can be useful later anyways since most engage attacks want a sword. the only real problem with this is waiting till ch9, when you would really want it ch8 or even as early as ch7 mauv - also just has the profs required to instant reclass griffin as well, which also adds a bit of speed. saphir - don't know why you don't mention free merciless, which is a great way to turn hortensia's staff utility into offense by breaking and enemy into a silver great ax hit which is liable to one shot most things (might need a +hit engrave to hit tho). admittedly wont come up too much as many chapters after her join can be completely warp skipped clanne - he's more like less bulk more speed than celine, base 7 vs 8 and he earns more exp so he makes up that 1 point quickly if you use him levin sword - it's just a worse bulganone in most areas, it's more worth to turn an elfire into a bulganone if a unit is mage knight covert lucina - is just not nearly as good as turning damage off using bonded shield with cavalry/flying/qi adept lucina
In my maddening run (which was my first ever playthrough), I kept Veyle in her base class and she was insane. I gave her avoid 30 and speedtaker and kept her with Marth and would engage+ with her and Alear and the two of them absolutely carried me through the endgame. I see what you mean by the support capabilities for the two of them being dragons, but for me they were the complete nukes of the team and easily were my MVPs late game.
rosado is a beast in my army but I didn't do several paralogues before recruiting him 'cause I wanted to save that xp for him, I also gave him several stat-boosters, but still
How Alfred was executed here makes me sus, both in gameplay and lore. Meh offense, weak speed and build and [SPOILER] He dies in solo ending. Really makes you think...did someone have a vendetta at whoever made him?
Timerra isn't a high investment unit at all. You only need to promote her and leave Ike on her and she is a pretty good enemy phase tank, you could also use Sigurd on her since he improves her dex and defence for sandstorm activation, but you'll maybe need to fix her streght a bit so you don't have to rely on the skill too often, speedtaker is just fine to make her speed snowball. I don't know if this list was made before well update, if that's the case I understand the "weapon" problem, but with the well you can just had her a forged Represaille lance and she'll be fast while also doing good damage.
This is a pretty good list. I'm sad to see Celine so low but I can understand why. Another boon of hers imo is also just how versatile she is with rings. She can use Celica, Sigurd, Soren, even tanks like Hector, and the newly released Chrom. Its nice having options for her if you do use her since a lot of good rings can be up for contention.
I've played though Engage five times now and either i keep getting extremely lucky with alcryst or im subconsciously investing in him because all I do is give him a killer bow and he sweeps
After nearing the end of my third playthrough on maddening(my second playthrough being one that banned all use of Somniel-exclusive features such as skill inheritance, refining, engraving, etc, and my third being an Ironman run with no Time Crystal use), I can say that this is probably the most accurate list I’ve seen of Engage. There’s not a single placement I disagree with and the reasonings you gave for each one were pretty spot on to how I’ve felt with each character. However, one thing I feel that could’ve been mentioned is how having a high HP stat is very valuable in this game due to wyrms ignoring Def/Res. This makes units with low HP such as Citrinne and Lapis have a harder time getting in chip damage against wyrms in fear of being OHKO’d on retaliation, while units like Panette being able to ORKO them even without help from an emblem. This isn’t enough to change the placement of any units, but just another thing to consider. Keep up the great content!
Framme is actually one of the free-est units ever. She's on staff and chain guard duty so she doesn't compete with anyone for exp, she literally becomes unkillable as a bonded shield user due to her stellar supports list, and yes, all this is on maddening, and she'll be able to quad enemies as a martial master with the brave fist wep to immediately get her engage meter back and abuse bonded shield again. All this for the extremely, relative to return, low cost of a _single_ master seal and the lucina emblem ring who no damage carry wants to use anyway
Time-stamp 7:10 - Pandreo, Mage Knight or Sage. Good Emblems: Byleth or Corrin. Byleth gives increased magic range, apparently. Corrin gives mystical Fire terrain, which is useful for every map.) You want him as a magic attacker because of his high magic and speed. Mage Knight is good for Levin Sword; Pandreo is a great candidate for Levin Sword. For endgame, transition into Bolganone for more damage. Overall, he kills off low resistance enemies with ease, and diminishes mid-resistance enemies for weaker allies to finish them off. 21:30 - Amber! Great strength, horrible speed. Amber can be a Halberdier, with Ike-Emblem that lets him survive doubling attacks. Halberdier with Brave Lance can result in quad-attacks because the Halberdier’s special ability allows doubling attacks. (Possibly, to fix his speed, you can give him the Lyn-Emblem.) 22:40, 23:00, 23:39 - Chloe can benefit from Marth’s Mercurius. Near the endgame, have Chloe kill many enemies with Mercuris for extra experience gain, which can allow her to snowball and catch up with her lacking Strength. Around the midgame, her strength falls off. One solution is to make her a Griffin Knight with Levin Sword. Chloe benefits from Eirika Emblem. 39:00 - Lapis works well with Roy or Eirika, and Lapis is a better Thief than Yunaka.
If you are talking fixed growths, both Rosado and Chloe have higher growth stat totals, and in their good stats. That makes them already lower investment.
The only ones I disagree with are Alcryst and Diamant. Diamant was an avoid/crit beast on my maddening run and Alcryst was definitely one my top 5 units.
Framme has been one of my best units in both my maddening runs, her solo staff access means that getting her those first few levels isn't particularly hard, by the time I've gotten Micaiah she's a bit behind still, but not not terrible, like 4-5 to others' 6-8. After that, especially if you forge her an art, she has some pretty good combat potential even if you have to baby her just a smidge and someone else can become the primary healer. So she definitely takes work, but the main reason I think it's worth doing so is because her growths make her one of only a few good Qi Adepts. and while being one range locked is an issue, Qi Adapts/Master Monks have automatic brave access, and some of the best emblem sync effects, and staff access gives them good adaptable utility. Rosado's even growths also make him extremely viable for Master Monk, but for me it's a class that I always want one but never two. so.... That said I liked this tier list format and yeah, I agree that everyone can be viable, there aren't any units that I'd place in (more traditional styled tier list's) poop tier, and that isn't something that can be said for all or even most of the games lol
*sigh* It's so frustrating that with how weapon ranks work in Engage... a Hero needs an affinity for their secondary weapon type to use Spears or Tomahawks. and Heroes want to use those sooooo much, and there are just so few characters that can. Even fewer that you don't want for something else.
Man, this list would be almost perfect if you had alcryst on great return. Killer bow +5 corrin engrave + luna does some insane damage/one shots even late game enemies
My slow Ivy ended up being good because I said 'what if I just give her every spirit dust' lmao Was on hard, but even then her damage was still ridiculous
I'm a little confused by the tiers here, surely low investment should be higher up as low investment is better than high investment given an equal/equivalent return?
Ive done Maddening twice now and both times I've used Timerra, I promoted her as soon as I could and gave her Lyn and Speed +4 plus all my dex/def boosters. Now this is pretty high investment I think but the return was good. Sandstorm seemed pretty consistent to me once I gave her a forged Brave Lance and Lyn + Speed +4 made her quad pretty often, once I got Sigurd back she could let go of Lyn and was truly my best unit in both my Maddening runs, even the one where I fed Alear early and used Kagetsu who I didnt use my 1st time. Alcryst was in a similar boat but he needed a lot less investment and just grew on his own, though Luna never felt as strong as Sandstorm.
I'd like to note that Great Knight Goldmary is a pretty low investment cavalry bonded shield user. Bulky enough and not that slow so it's not all that hard to have the AI attacking the shielded units instead of her with 1-2 range on.
The only thing that I think is way off pm this tier list is Alcryst, which I would definitely put into high investment great return. Alcryst needs mainly Dex and Spd to get going which he can get from Lyn and is probably the best Lyn user in the game. But can ultimately become a combat unit better than other units in that tier with a very similar amount of investment
I like using Timerra. To me, the key thing with her is not making Sandstorm consistent, it's using her as a late game tank. I pump up her speed and her defense. She can take a bunch of hits without the res and armour weaknesses of Louis etc, and is never getting doubled. Sandstorm becomes more of a free bonus, letting her sometimes vaporise an enemy. It's not something I rely on, but if she doesn't kill an enemy it's no biggy, and she can contribute with her chain assists too. Sandstorm makes defense bonuses more valuable on her too. She pairs perfectly with Ike imo.
Yeah Timerra's mixed bulk even without a Emblem is nothing to sneeze at. By the time I got her she had comparable bulk to my Louis, but didn't fear mages like he did and had the potential of not being doubled. I find that Leif works really great on her. It gives her much needed Build to have her make use of her speed. Leif is definitely one of the least contested Emblems, just due to his flawed adaptable mechanic and not so great Engage weapons. However Arms Shield and Vantage are great for enemy phase focused units like her. I don't think I sunk many resources into her besides the Leif Emblem and an engraved killer lance. Sandstorm crits are spicy.
I slightly disagree, I think pairing her with Sigurd allows her the most advantages, hear me out: As a baseline, you get +1 mov, +3 build, +3 dex, and +3 defense, the three stats timerra most cares about. By shoring up her defense stat with the chapter 19 dracoshield, and a few secret books, making sandstorm consistent starts to feed back into her bulk, which in return feeds back into sandstorm, making the saying "the best offense is a good defense" the most literal metaphor ever. almost forgot, this also boosts her supportive abilities as well, like most backup units, she'll want dual assist, and the extra move allows that to proc ever slightly more often, allowing her to chain attack from a few spaces farther.
@@thelostician Yeah my build was mostly a showcase of how Timerra can work even without much resources or ones that are not hotly contested. I imagine Sigurd ring does work great on her. Though there are many characters that want the ring. Its one of the more valuable rings in the game due to all its effects, so it being used on Timerra is certainly no guarentee.
I still haven't used him, but I think Alcryst has to be in Great Retun, Help Needed solely because he comes with Luna and it can proc using Lyn's Emblem Ring ability per arrow from 10 spaces away. Overall though, I think this is the best tier list I've seen. I'm always stunned when Hortensia is not in the highest tier next to Seadall.
I also appreciate that you have 14 units between No Brainer and the the two Great Investment tiers giving people an idea who to use for their first Maddening Run if they're not sure who to use.
Really great guide and perspective. I completely agree with this ideology that all units have an investment bar but aren't actually unusable or must bench in comparison. Engage is really generous with exp and has a lot of options for customisation and usage due to the rings. That being said as a LTC fan boy, you gotta love low investment high return units haha. SP is a bitch to farm.
I can get at least a 93% crit with the Lindon I have Hold Out/Wrath, give him a forged Killer Axe as a Mage Knight so he can still use magic of course And it works almost right away since Killer Axe is a C rank weapon and every enemy is going to have a B and above so Weapon Instincts will still activate. I suggest using Eirika for when you engrave it (or Camilla if you have the DLC) You'll have to wait on Hold Out because of a lack of Roy at that point of the game, but hey, Vantage/Wrath is still good since you get Leif a solid 2 levels before Roy XD
Proof that any unit can be made good, Framme’s growths are similar to Chloé’s, she has less hp growth and has 30% strength and 25% magic instead of Chloé’s 25% strength and 35% magic. Chloé’s bases and growths are better, but she’s not super ahead of framme, she’s definitely ahead just not so much Framme can’t catch up to her bases and grow about as well as her. Forges also can legitimately fix framme’s bad early game offense, and she can go high priest if she wants to additionally gain tomes. Is it optimal, no, but it’s not hard.
Something to note about Alcryst: I find that he's decent from his recruit through midgame but his low strength can make him fall off, even with Luna, but rather than benching him you can transition him to a good Byleth user, as, other than Dragon, Covert has one of the best versions of Instruct/Goddess Dance in the game but such a small pool of potential users since most Covert classes leave a lot to be desired
No, Marths AVO on Alear Makes every unit have a sub 10% or 0% chance to do no damage to him. By chapter 8 for me with the avo+20 and sword agility 2 Marths Perceptive and Divine Speed (while engaged) paired with AVO+20 Rapier even bosses have a 4% chance to do 8 damage. At the advanced class Divide Dragon the best hit chance I've seen someone have was a magic user at 53%. I put him on the field and can literally only use one unit the entire battle. Key word is can, that's boring kinda but on the maps with annoying mechanics in Maddening it's nice to have some who can solo a large group.
I recently started my maddening run and I gotta say how much I love engages mechanics. You've always been able to make bad units good with investment but this game really feels like you can use any and everyone however you want. Sure some are better, but there are just so many options you have its fun to experiment.
Really great guide! One thing you might want to consider is the value of Draconic Hex. Especially with Saphir and Lindon, they can immediately inherit it, and their access to the Longbow / Thunder means they can safely debuff annoying enemies, especially bosses. Not sure if it’s better than Lucina’s skill on Saphir, though.
I can see that for Lindon and Saphir if you want to use them as chip debuffers. For Saphir, I like to try for a vantage+/wrath strategy since her “will to win” ability increases her hit rate/avoid by 20 makes her a good crit abuser. Lindon you can try for something similar with a dire thunder build since he can crit with a lower rank tome.
During my first maddening run, I made what might be a questionable choice, and gave Louis all the speedwings throughout the game. I promoted him to Great Knight at Lv.10 and was internal level 48 when I finished the game. His speed before any other boosts, was 23. Eating speed meals, and emblem bonuses, kept him below the doubling threshold for most enemies. So he stayed the phenominal early game physical tank... for basically the entire game for me. Was it efficient? No, but I had fun using him.
Once I circle back around to Maddening it will be interesting to see if my opinion of Diamant changes because for now all I see is a bunch of mad disrespect, lol. On my Hard mode playthrough he was second only to Ivy. Sturdy, hit hard, fast, reliable. Stick him in a choke point with a Tomahawk+1 (becuase I didn't manage my economy well out of ignorance) and Ike that side is completely dealt with. Great Return though arguable how much investment he needs. Probably High but I'll take him over Amber, Zelkov or Fogado any day of the week. Yunaka v. Zelkov is also one that sticks out as a little of to me. She joins earlier and has better growths, unless you're purposely ignoring her for other units that are also rated lowly I'm not sure why she wouldn't be better than Zelkov by his join time. Specifically, while he has that sweet sweet extra 4 build, Knives are light so who cares? And in exchange she gets 45 RES growth compared to his 15, and since Mystical ignores terrain bonuses and are the thing that's actually dangerous to covert units as a result, that seems like a favorable exchange for her too. They both suffer from that late game damage drop off, but that mens you're working to fix them the same amount. Like I'm not even trying to dunk on Zelkov, he's a good unit but he just seems to clearly be the second best Thief. I basically agree with everything said about Celine but I do wonder if she's a case where her early availability just makes her better than she otherwise would be. Like when she joins you're going to want to be training Alear, Chloe, and....maybe Framme? Like Louis is good at that point but he does his job without xp. Clanne might be getting some because he can be worked into something decent. But everyone else is definitely worse than Celine, so is it even favoritism to feed her? She was definitely a character I didn't actually intend to use but just ended up being the best available for me a lot of the time.
alear in wyvern / griffin knight with lucina emblem is the best support in the game, provides bonded shield +3 atk to all ur flyers and he has all the supp to use at max the dual support of the lucina emblem gives him insane avoid + avoid engrave u has the ultimate flyer xD. veyle soren ring is the most broken unit in the game, absolute no brainer
Call me madman, but my last run i invested a bunch of second seals on everyone, even the DLC ones, i know it kills the difficulty, but, what can i say, i dont like to have anyone with crappy stats
Rosado I wouldn't put in the same category as Burnet. Rosado is kinda more like Anna/Jean. His bases are bad, but his growths are pretty insane, so once he gets going he's pretty devastateing. Timmera is weird. It's like; when she gets to Picket lv5 she actually becomes a unit. Personally I had pretty great results with Celine in her unique class; then going into Gryphon lategame. But Gryphon is just kinda busted anyway on anyone with a passable MAG or STR growth?
Rosado is like Anna and Jean, but has the unfortunate issue of joining 8 chapters before the end of the game. So even if you make the investment, you only get to enjoy the benefits of your labor for a few chapters. Celine is fine imo. She has late game potential if you want to invest in her.
@@actuallizardRisado also has really easy access to speedtaker, which gives him serviceable wyvern stats. Not great but I’d argue he’s about as good as the Brodie units, although I’m slightly biased as in my 1st playthrough I killed off most of the prepremotes that were better then him. If no one dies it’ll be hard to deploy him, but then you could say the same about diamant.
Seadall’s probably the best dancer in the series(beyond the FE4 and heron dancers) because he can actually survive a hit. Granted his bulk isn’t massive, but unlike olivia or azura, you don’t have to terminally keep him out of enemy range. He consistently survived hits in my hard mode playthrough(though he wasn’t a tank).
I love the way you make this, but I have some opinions/maddening experience: 1- For me Fogado had a bad time between chapter 14 and warrior reclass. He lacks to much strength. After that he destroys everything with a silver bow 2- in my opinion Alcryst gives great return with medium investment. You only need to inherent him speed and dex, give him a killer bow and shot down any flyer u see, by chapter 15 he will crit or Luna any non tank enemy he attacks 3- I think tymera and diamant are the best tanks in the game, inherent tymera with built and give her a brave lance and Ike and see will tank kill everything. Put lief on diamante and inherent dex and no one will survive attacking him. Later inherent pair up on them and they will sky rocket 4- u should try a panette axe paladin with brave axe and wrath, she is an active player madness
Okay, maybe Emblem Eirika is just THAT good, but my reclassed Wolf Rider Yunaka was able to one round a good deal of enemies and devastate late game bosses all with a Steel Dagger +4. I was thinking maybe she was blessed in STR, but Maddening forces you into fixed the first time you play it. (I used Merrin, too. Yunaka eclipsed her offensively. I did put Speedtaker on her, though. Maybe that carried)
I made my pannete a sniper for the no distractions skill with the goal of making her a longbow crit machine. Heres the build. Reclass to sniper and give the corrin engraving to a longbow. Give her wrath from ike and get her injured. This can be made easier with hold out. Watch as the numbers add up +10 crit from sniper personal +10 crit from pannete personal +30 from corrin engraving +30 from wrath. Thats 80% crit without factoring pannetes inate crit from her stats. Give her a killer bow to get her 100% crit for when you dont need longbow. Try it out as its kinda destroying the hard to kill sord masters, heros, and wolf knights that plague late game maps.
Framme is fine for her base class because that’s the only thing martial master care about long term. They’ll never do much damage without eirika emblem
This was a great video! Gave me a lot of good ideas for building my units. I personally found Timerra to be super tanky and fun, but I might be biased since I did invest in her.
Didn’t put Lapis into her own tier called high investment, high bapping. 0/10 video. Bapis™️ is not happy.
Thought I was going crazy when, in my first playthrough, I used Lapis and she was INSANE. Weird that no one seemed to mention her. Didnt know if i got lucky or not.
I had to learn how to meet Lapis on her terms. I tried to crit build her but her crit rate is bad. I put her on lances as a hero and she was useful. I heard good things about wyvern rider but had too much fun double back up shennegins
Lapis with every avoid buff is just nutty good 😂
@@kennethlsterner5515 I wouldn't call a 20% strength growth good
@rachadlendar4918 it's 25 without class modifiers.
The most helpful Engage tier list I’ve seen. Even just giving the tiers descriptions (not S, A, B, etc.) is a big help. Your justifications are detailed but to the point and you’ve given me a lot of interesting build ideas. Thanks!
I like this approach than a conventional tier list, really feels like you go into the characters expressing their strengths and weaknesses before getting into them
"Ooh myy" - George Takei
I actually think diamant is a really rewarding unit I played deployed him in every map since he was playable and gave him the ike emblem he was a monster in tanking physical damage and dealing damage he even one rounded some end game armor knights with a silver sword so plus he doubled everything except for a few pegasus knights and swordmaster. I personally would put him higher
This is the first tier list I've mostly agreed with!
One fun note about Lindon: he's capable of Vantage/Wrath with magic and is probably the only character who can do it. Forge up and crit engrave an Elthunder and he'll have +20 Crit on just about every enemy after he joins. It's not an *incredible* build but he's uniquely capable of a 3-range Vantage/Wrath setup and it's silly fun.
Your description of Celine snowballing perfectly matched up to my experience. Was unstoppable and then all of a sudden was not worth keeping around. Great video- definitely earned a new subscriber!
My Celine was really great all game... kinda weird, I have heard more recently she's considered bad. For me Alfred I wanted to use but he fell off faster than I expected.
@@JaidynReiman i have Celine as a Wyvern. She gets a lot of crits.
Since I used London my first run, I’ll give my opinion. I used him as a filler and while he was nothing special, he is indirectly buffed by how good magic and staves are in engage. Honestly he contributes about the same amount as mauvier. That said he has the same stats as my like 12/3 Anna who I benched in chapter 13, so his utility is more a testament to the power of the freeze staff then anything else.
Also halbedier Louis is really sad, he loses most of his defense but is still too slow so he ends up taking 40 damage a combat, plus pincer attack isn’t like quick riposte so he still gets doubled. Additionally his dex and lack are low so it feels like it’s only a matter of time before he missed and gets crit by a sword user. Being able to one round with a rides and is nice, but then he’s looking at ~50% hit rates, and you don’t really want to spend an engrave on him. I’ve kept him around as a meme unit but the lack of exp has only made him look worse and worse, at least he counts as a backup unit.
Pannete:Most of the crit stuff pannete can do Kagestu does better. Wyvern Kagestu with Ike is tangy enough for some sword users to not attack, still has ~70 crit at full health and can double for higher damage output, while still having enough strength to one shot. He basically has the stats to do the wrath 100% crit strat while also taking single digit damage and also having 40 speed via speedtaker. With this build vantage is unnecessary as physical attacks don’t hurt you anyway.
Lucina; Flying bonded shield is incredible, especially when combined with Lyn ivy. Chapter 12 let’s ivy pretend to be Camilla, one rounding enemies while taking 0 damage in return.
Fogado; radiant bow fogado is good, but even better is brave bow fogado with Erika. Since Erika does true damage after defense, brave weapons do a roof damage, and often can one round armor knights. Fogado is the best user of this strategy as he is very fast and can attack from 2 range, allowing him to avoid counterattacks and canter away from the front line. It takes a long time to come online but fogado is fine until then and by chapter 19 he can one round etie and Gerald with a brave bow, and he can chip half the health of any enemy. I would highly recommend, especially if you’re using fogado anyway.
Also sorry for writing an essay but unit discussion is interesting and this unit guide is very good with the only placement I disagree on being Amber. Don’t feel like you have to read all this.
TL:DR nerdy unit discussion.
I find Timerra makes a pretty good enemy phase tank on maddening. Enemies will just ignore your units with too much Def or Avo, while Timerra has just enough to get targeted and survive, doing decent counterattack damage.
Yeah, Timerra is scales solid into lategame even with little investment. You shouldn't ever be relying on sandstorm but it is nice to proc occasionally.
Her build is awful, but as long as you keep her on lighter weapons (the new free lance from the well is very solid on her), she's got enough defence to take minimal but not no damage, enough speed to not get doubled excluding by Swordmaster, Wolf knights, Fliers and some of the faster Heroes throughout the whole game (again, as long as you don't give her heavy weapons); and enough Avo to dodge a solid enough amount to mitigate some damage.
Ike is an awful fit for her, but Leif and Hector with the DLC are very solid on her with nearly 0 competition for them.
@@effluxi9587 I wouldn’t say Ike is awful for her considering that she still fulfills her role better than she would without him
I don't know what it is, but my Timerra is terrible at everything 😂
@@effluxi9587 Ike is great on her, idk what you’re talking about
@@Edgeperor I think Timerra has too good of avoid and not good enough defense to make proper use of Ike. She's a mix of traditional tank and dodge tank, I'd rather give Ike to Louis or Panette, since they aren't really caring about losing their avoid from Laguz Friend
seadall is probably the best dancer in the series after the herons canter is so insane for a dancer you can make so many plays
I'm fairly convinced that Yuri (with Fetters of Dromi) will never be outclassed as a dancer 💀 completely and utterly broken because he can also dodge tank.
@@Colgruvwho
@@leargamma4912purple haired guy from 3H dlc. Naturally fast, high avoid, and sword avoid from the dancer class makes him basically untouchable
@@mr.krustykrust oh. I don't like him so whatever.
Someone’s never leg ring + knight ring-ed a genealogy dancer.
Timerra is the only one I disagree with - I think you're undervaluing her tanking, possibly because of her build issues that you kind of have to just suck up and not give her a heavy weapon until you get Lief back for her.
Lindon probably is in the correct place having used him myself. He's got an okay gimmick vantage wrath elthunder build, and is an okay contributer with either dire thunder or Thoron/Elthunder Draconic hex.
Edit: Otherwise, great list! I much prefer this way of rating units to forcing the arbitrary and unhelpful letter rankings.
I buyed the game a few days ago and i started at madening difficulty because im expirenced in FF games.
I remember playing fates was like solving math problems XD Was like switch class every 2 or 3 level to another to get the skills from that class then switch to another and at level 18 switch to your final class for that skills. Also watch growth rates and to make godlike childs was math too.
But i have to say i dont like the chars design in that game that mutch.
Fates had some of the coolest chars ever for me like Takumi, Camilla, Saizo, Kagero, Nina, Velouria and so on ;)
Also most of the chars had cool or strange personality like Odin, Midori, Forrest, Shiro and so on.
In this game every one is a cry baby and excuses himself in like every dialog its like a telenovela XD
You mentioned Alear as a Wyvern. This also makes them one of the best Lucina users, especially if you are using Chloe and Ivy, or reclassed Kagetsu to Wyvern. I've had flyer balls tank huge swaths of enemies on maddening. The enemy AI will prioritize archers on them as well, even tho they can't actually kill because if bonded shield making it easier to move your backline into position.
"I value the fire more than the fog" sounds like it should be the lyrics to something.
Sounds like a Dragonforce song
Most maddening tier lists: These units are trash!
My preferred team comp: 😅😅😅
This tier list doesn’t stomp on my team as bad as others do.
Fantastic video. In terms of presentation probably the best tier list available. Just very clear and comprehensive, covering the good and the bad and some potential roles. Not getting too stuck on a single aspect of a characters that are amazing or terrible. Tier lists are of course always going to a bit subjective, and the rating system is different per person but I think this is a very fair list.
I see your point about the swordmaster class being meh but funny Kagetsu crit animations are too cool to pass up.
The "Rest in pieces" is iconic
Nice video, however still 0/10, didn't talk about Mage Yunaka. Smh.
I started a hard mode random growths playthrough (i know, not maddening, not real, call me out, whatever)
Wanted to use alfred cause he turned out fine for me on normal
Man hit one speed level out of the 12 levels i gave him.
The rng screw is hilarious.
You kind of forgot to mention that Seadall can chain guard in his dancer class.
I think I'm using Amber wrong. After watching this guide I decided to use him in a run through, but hes not that tanky, not that strong, not that fast, so I'm struggling to have him be useful on player or enemy phase. I Gave him a bunch of the stat boosts too...
I Have him as a halberdier right now (not using brave lance yet though), am around ch 15/16, and have the Ike emblem on him. Is he only useful as halberdier with brave lance?
I reached ch13 on maddening yesterday, which I dreaded because of the fliers swooping down from out of the fog of war. I decided to try out using Kagetsu and Zelkov for the first time ever. They were still at base level and class. I gave Kagetsu a spd tonic and a bond ring that gave him +1 spd. He proceeded to kill every single flier all by himself with a steel sword while standing in foliage. Meanwhile Zelkov temporarily equipped the Lyn Emblem and Yunaka's old Micaiah engraved dagger. He singlehandedly led the rest of my team down south to save the house and act as a speedy frontliner that baited out the enemy wolf riders and sword fighters from the shadows while applying poison. Needless to say, after these two trivialized majority of ch13 I now wholeheartedly agree that they're very strong. I can't believe I gimped my first maddening run by skipping over them last time.
Recently finished my blind maddening playthrough. Something I appreciated about Saphir is her rather insane starting Build stat of 15. She wasnt stellar or anything but I could at least throw a +Hit Tomohawk on her and not need to care for the weight all that much, a trait I think only Diamant shared in my playthrough.
With Jean, the difference from taking him from martial monk to lvl 10 vs axe fighter lvl 10 (the highest pre-promo str growth class), is 2 str (1.8 if you want to be technical, a growth of 10(20) vs 20(40)). Of the promoted classes, only berserker exceeds 20(40), and between the levin sword and the radiant bow, Jean isnt throwing away what magic he has either.
This is definitely arbitrary, but shouldn't great return, low investment be a higher tier than great return, high investment? Or is the implication that GRHI has a higher return in general?
Zelkov does indeed * require * high investment.
On the Rosado thing: if you’re, hypothetically, like me, and didn’t really do many paralogues until after getting him, you still have a ton of time to level him up, even though it’s technically in the late midgame when he comes. His str, speed, and def starts absolutely snowballing if you do this, and he can easily get 30-35 strength and speed and defense in the 30s by the end of the game
The thing with Timera is that, if you lean into using her primarily as an enemy phase tank to protect your backline, you don't have to worry to much about whether sandstorm procs or not, but it's usually a huge swing when it does, and if you position Great Aether well, you can pretty safely bank on at least one or two surprise procs when the enemy density gets high in the late game.
I probably should have mentioned Timerra tanking, but I don't think it changes her category. Timerra in Picket has very replicable bulk. It's about the same as Goldmary in Hero (who is also brave assisting), or Mauvier in base class. She has the advantage of being doubled by less things, but if you really want a late game tank, there are lots of options that provide similar or better results without having to deal with Timerra's weak early game.
For example, Mauvier instantly reclassed to great knight has higher def and res compared to a late game Timerra in picket for the low cost of a late game second seal. He gets doubled by more things, but in the ike tanking role, his higher defenses more than make up for it.
Timerra can Ike tank, but it's not that important of a job to begin with (I'd rather give Panette Ike to kill things with) and a lot of units can do it well enough, most with either less investment, or while providing good offense for the entire game. She needs to fix her offense to stand out in Picket IMO (which is doable, but she needs some help).
Notably the Hector Emblem actually fixes a lot of problems for Timerra, when considering DLC (free doubles on enemy phase, extra build, vantaqe if you activate next to lyn etc).
@@actuallizard I've been pairing her with roy and I'm having great success as she gets a boatload of stats when engaging which boosts her dmg and proc rate on sandstorm, on top of baseline 10 health / 4 str.
It does take a while until you unlock roy again, though. Keeping ike on her is probably her best option but that ring is probably contested anyway.
I'm of the mind that Ike is a bit of a nonbo on Timerra, 50% less damage isn't all that great when it comes at the cost of a high Speed unit's Avoid. I feel like she shines a lot more with Lief, Roy, Hector, Marth, Tiki, Edelgard, etc.
@@sympathism I really like that idea, and it's probably disgusting if you inherit Resolve after the Ike phase in midgame!
I feel like you need at least 4 units who can survive as tanks deployed by the time you get to end game anyway. Timerra's stats resemble Goldmary's in hero, as Lizard says, but, if you inherit more defensive skills, the enemy phasing crack-backs with Sandstorm serve a radically different function than brave-assist support.
It's tempting to play Timera as a support like that because her strength is low, but that makes her weak and hard to gain XP on. Picket can still assist, which is great utility, but it also randomly hits stuff for like a hundred damage when you get lucky.
Maybe I'm biased towards rng-manipulation builds (played Enhance Shaman in WoW), but the more I look at varied opinions about this game, the more I think that "What you appreciate appreciates." If someone loves chain assist effects and incremental damage adding up, then that's going to seem like a wiser build; I like big surprises, like Sandstorm and Luna procs.
@@thepurge7964 haha its a head scratcher for sure. There are clear drawbacks to most if the personal classes. No secondary weapon, succeseur is skill capped at 22 and picket gets 0 build and is str screwed half the time, so you do need to invest in forged silver stuff engraved and forged with weight bonuses and all that jazz.
I was for example thinking of promoting arthur to a warrior asap and then see how the run goes. His growths should become insane then, with access to bows. My alear is a warrior for more than half of my run and became my best unit surprisingly.
Try handing Timerra a Javy +4 and give her Speed+3 + Dex+4 and she will double almost everything in enemy phase :) She is a better tank than regular tanks cause at some point they just get ignored for their hogh DEF / AVO.
How is Anna a Project? I took her into two chapters after recruitment to get her to level 10 using the regular Micaiah heal strat, then Master Seal her into Warrior and immediately Second Seal her into Mage Knight. With a levin sword and an early Elfire (upgraded Fire) she carries your ass for the rest of the game since her Mag stat only gets better and better :) I consider that medium investment cause she needs no inherited skills or anything expensive until lategame.
Celine with chrom is a no brainer
Whith dlc the tier of early game filler, can be great return thanks to tiki, veronica and edelgard, that give more stats per level, more sp, more exp, whith tiki and veronica or edelgard you can have a powerhouse of levels and habilites, plus an early acense of clas give you tons of stats
I might actually think that Bunet is one of the worst units in the game. It's a shame, too. He could have been in the "IT'S F^CKING RAW" tier, but the game does not allow for weapon forge names.
See timera in the low tier while she's one of my best units 😳
Ivy was the queen of missing and getting critted for me in Hard lmao. Annoying AF
I think you were a bit too unfair with alcryst. Luna brave bow is only one route to take, i personally gave him a killer bow and having him one round enemies that would normally take 0 dmg was so funny. I know lyn is also a highly sought out emblem but he synergizes really really well with her. I think the returns you get are really high if you invest a few refinements tbqh
Especially since forging a Killer Bow is very cheap compared to Silver/Brave. Just give him an Eirika/Corrin engraving and watch him crit most of the time
@@LinkachuHQ yea i put the corrin engraving on and i was hitting 70-80 crit by endgame he was really reliable
I have never reclassed Alear before from Divine Dragon. Maybe I should?
nah he looks bad in other outfits
Funny enough, Diamant/Jean/Anna ended up being my strongest and most useful units. I’m glad I invested in them even if they weren’t the most ideal.
if you like using chloé, i gotta reccomend a martial master reclass. having a second qi adept is not only just nice, but her personal skill and growths synergize really well with the class. you get the silver-spirit art for free the chapter right before you get access to art proficiency(w/ no DLC), so she can use that to great effect. or you could refine it into the flashing fist art. alternatively, sigurd engraving the ch9 steel-hand art and then refining it to silver is a decent option for alear until you get chloé to martial master, and the -1 WT and +1 MT on the then refined flashing-fist art helps her not lose out on one-rounds until you can slap erika on her
Jean is fun. I'd personally say he's just better than Framme or at least has a better outlook than her. I just used him as a staffer/chain guarder and even brought him back after mid game as chain guarding is really helpful for baiting, or avoiding being one rounded (unless the enemy crits on the follow up hit).
I enjoy using Jean. I agree that switching him in for Framme is viable once he arrives. It doesn't really matter that he's underleveled since both of them are just healing/chain guarding anyway.
I'm surprised Alcryst isn't higher on the list. He's my personal MVP in my current Maddening run. He did immediately fall off on both my hard mode runs, but that's basically because I under-used him by merit of him being an archer.
this is ten times better then any other list ive seen,
some additional notes:
alear - micaiah ring is has a +1 range for staffs on dragon units, rewarp is available for ch9-11. alear's +1 range enables shenanigans like 1 turn ch9 and skipping right behind the door in ch10 on turn 1. getting staff prof for 11 and reclassing means alear can rewarp themselves to the escape point there as well. alear also just supports everyone so the personal skill is even better
hortensia - does need 4 lvls for her class skill, and on maddening that will at least be a few chapters
seadall - is one of the few strong no investment units that is part of the critical support group, giving +3 crit for C tier and +6 crit for A. this can help crit fishing with either chloe/kage, less notably pandreo/amber/alear/veyle very solid support list and the rest of the crit boosting supports need some investment on top of supporting almost no one relevant
amber - can get a knife prof and just insta promote wolf knight fixing both his speed base and growth. I do think he requires a bit more investment since the speed of the chapters after he joins are so fast it's easy for him to get 0-1 levels in 4 chapters
chloe - similarly can take a lance prof and promote into wyvern instead, this is super worth noting since it not only basically doubles her str growth but it is also gives +4 str/+3 def/ +4 hp/+2 bld. it doesnt give speed and still feels like a thracia promotion
louis - also has a solid option by pivoting to griffin as his personal bases are actually just good and it gives him the speed he needs, while it does hurt his bld he is one of the only characters with good build growth or you can just take the hit and get the extra prof, make him sword griffin, which can be useful later anyways since most engage attacks want a sword. the only real problem with this is waiting till ch9, when you would really want it ch8 or even as early as ch7
mauv - also just has the profs required to instant reclass griffin as well, which also adds a bit of speed.
saphir - don't know why you don't mention free merciless, which is a great way to turn hortensia's staff utility into offense by breaking and enemy into a silver great ax hit which is liable to one shot most things (might need a +hit engrave to hit tho). admittedly wont come up too much as many chapters after her join can be completely warp skipped
clanne - he's more like less bulk more speed than celine, base 7 vs 8 and he earns more exp so he makes up that 1 point quickly if you use him
levin sword - it's just a worse bulganone in most areas, it's more worth to turn an elfire into a bulganone if a unit is mage knight
covert lucina - is just not nearly as good as turning damage off using bonded shield with cavalry/flying/qi adept lucina
idk how but my wyvern lapis with folkvangr+5 is insane. tiki might have helped a bit. also follvangr is probably unnecessary
In my maddening run (which was my first ever playthrough), I kept Veyle in her base class and she was insane. I gave her avoid 30 and speedtaker and kept her with Marth and would engage+ with her and Alear and the two of them absolutely carried me through the endgame. I see what you mean by the support capabilities for the two of them being dragons, but for me they were the complete nukes of the team and easily were my MVPs late game.
rosado is a beast in my army but I didn't do several paralogues before recruiting him 'cause I wanted to save that xp for him, I also gave him several stat-boosters, but still
How Alfred was executed here makes me sus, both in gameplay and lore.
Meh offense, weak speed and build and [SPOILER]
He dies in solo ending.
Really makes you think...did someone have a vendetta at whoever made him?
Timerra isn't a high investment unit at all. You only need to promote her and leave Ike on her and she is a pretty good enemy phase tank, you could also use Sigurd on her since he improves her dex and defence for sandstorm activation, but you'll maybe need to fix her streght a bit so you don't have to rely on the skill too often, speedtaker is just fine to make her speed snowball. I don't know if this list was made before well update, if that's the case I understand the "weapon" problem, but with the well you can just had her a forged Represaille lance and she'll be fast while also doing good damage.
This is a pretty good list. I'm sad to see Celine so low but I can understand why. Another boon of hers imo is also just how versatile she is with rings. She can use Celica, Sigurd, Soren, even tanks like Hector, and the newly released Chrom. Its nice having options for her if you do use her since a lot of good rings can be up for contention.
I've played though Engage five times now and either i keep getting extremely lucky with alcryst or im subconsciously investing in him because all I do is give him a killer bow and he sweeps
After nearing the end of my third playthrough on maddening(my second playthrough being one that banned all use of Somniel-exclusive features such as skill inheritance, refining, engraving, etc, and my third being an Ironman run with no Time Crystal use), I can say that this is probably the most accurate list I’ve seen of Engage. There’s not a single placement I disagree with and the reasonings you gave for each one were pretty spot on to how I’ve felt with each character.
However, one thing I feel that could’ve been mentioned is how having a high HP stat is very valuable in this game due to wyrms ignoring Def/Res. This makes units with low HP such as Citrinne and Lapis have a harder time getting in chip damage against wyrms in fear of being OHKO’d on retaliation, while units like Panette being able to ORKO them even without help from an emblem. This isn’t enough to change the placement of any units, but just another thing to consider.
Keep up the great content!
Framme is actually one of the free-est units ever. She's on staff and chain guard duty so she doesn't compete with anyone for exp, she literally becomes unkillable as a bonded shield user due to her stellar supports list, and yes, all this is on maddening, and she'll be able to quad enemies as a martial master with the brave fist wep to immediately get her engage meter back and abuse bonded shield again. All this for the extremely, relative to return, low cost of a _single_ master seal and the lucina emblem ring who no damage carry wants to use anyway
Time-stamp
7:10 - Pandreo, Mage Knight or Sage. Good Emblems: Byleth or Corrin. Byleth gives increased magic range, apparently. Corrin gives mystical Fire terrain, which is useful for every map.) You want him as a magic attacker because of his high magic and speed. Mage Knight is good for Levin Sword; Pandreo is a great candidate for Levin Sword. For endgame, transition into Bolganone for more damage.
Overall, he kills off low resistance enemies with ease, and diminishes mid-resistance enemies for weaker allies to finish them off.
21:30 - Amber! Great strength, horrible speed.
Amber can be a Halberdier, with Ike-Emblem that lets him survive doubling attacks. Halberdier with Brave Lance can result in quad-attacks because the Halberdier’s special ability allows doubling attacks.
(Possibly, to fix his speed, you can give him the Lyn-Emblem.)
22:40, 23:00, 23:39 - Chloe can benefit from Marth’s Mercurius. Near the endgame, have Chloe kill many enemies with Mercuris for extra experience gain, which can allow her to snowball and catch up with her lacking Strength.
Around the midgame, her strength falls off. One solution is to make her a Griffin Knight with Levin Sword.
Chloe benefits from Eirika Emblem.
39:00 - Lapis works well with Roy or Eirika, and Lapis is a better Thief than Yunaka.
If you are talking fixed growths, both Rosado and Chloe have higher growth stat totals, and in their good stats. That makes them already lower investment.
the background music started to drive me crazy around 35 mins in lol
Make clanne a thief, only takes a 2nd 🦭 and Steele dagger if you don't want to invest in a silver dagger and has better stats then yunaka as a thief
The only ones I disagree with are Alcryst and Diamant. Diamant was an avoid/crit beast on my maddening run and Alcryst was definitely one my top 5 units.
My Timera on maddening is a hard carry, just need some investment with the dex, brave lance + sandstorm is broken
Pannete with Ike is just broken in hard and lower difficulties
Framme has been one of my best units in both my maddening runs, her solo staff access means that getting her those first few levels isn't particularly hard, by the time I've gotten Micaiah she's a bit behind still, but not not terrible, like 4-5 to others' 6-8. After that, especially if you forge her an art, she has some pretty good combat potential even if you have to baby her just a smidge and someone else can become the primary healer.
So she definitely takes work, but the main reason I think it's worth doing so is because her growths make her one of only a few good Qi Adepts. and while being one range locked is an issue, Qi Adapts/Master Monks have automatic brave access, and some of the best emblem sync effects, and staff access gives them good adaptable utility. Rosado's even growths also make him extremely viable for Master Monk, but for me it's a class that I always want one but never two. so....
That said I liked this tier list format and yeah, I agree that everyone can be viable, there aren't any units that I'd place in (more traditional styled tier list's) poop tier, and that isn't something that can be said for all or even most of the games lol
*sigh* It's so frustrating that with how weapon ranks work in Engage... a Hero needs an affinity for their secondary weapon type to use Spears or Tomahawks.
and Heroes want to use those sooooo much, and there are just so few characters that can. Even fewer that you don't want for something else.
I hadn't considered byleth Anna for money, but I finally byleth to be a pretty good emblem for mystics with the funny sniper rifle staff anyways
Man, this list would be almost perfect if you had alcryst on great return. Killer bow +5 corrin engrave + luna does some insane damage/one shots even late game enemies
All your good combat units are supposed to 1 shot right.
My slow Ivy ended up being good because I said 'what if I just give her every spirit dust' lmao Was on hard, but even then her damage was still ridiculous
I'm a little confused by the tiers here, surely low investment should be higher up as low investment is better than high investment given an equal/equivalent return?
You mentioned that any updates to the tier list would be in a comment down below but I don’t see anything?
Best character breakdown I've seen yet.
Ive done Maddening twice now and both times I've used Timerra, I promoted her as soon as I could and gave her Lyn and Speed +4 plus all my dex/def boosters. Now this is pretty high investment I think but the return was good. Sandstorm seemed pretty consistent to me once I gave her a forged Brave Lance and Lyn + Speed +4 made her quad pretty often, once I got Sigurd back she could let go of Lyn and was truly my best unit in both my Maddening runs, even the one where I fed Alear early and used Kagetsu who I didnt use my 1st time. Alcryst was in a similar boat but he needed a lot less investment and just grew on his own, though Luna never felt as strong as Sandstorm.
This is gonna sound crazy but I did a Crit Warrior Build with Lindon and it’s working.
I'd like to note that Great Knight Goldmary is a pretty low investment cavalry bonded shield user. Bulky enough and not that slow so it's not all that hard to have the AI attacking the shielded units instead of her with 1-2 range on.
The only thing that I think is way off pm this tier list is Alcryst, which I would definitely put into high investment great return. Alcryst needs mainly Dex and Spd to get going which he can get from Lyn and is probably the best Lyn user in the game. But can ultimately become a combat unit better than other units in that tier with a very similar amount of investment
Besides Martial Master and Mage Knight for Mauiver any other cool classes to promote him into?
I like using Timerra. To me, the key thing with her is not making Sandstorm consistent, it's using her as a late game tank. I pump up her speed and her defense. She can take a bunch of hits without the res and armour weaknesses of Louis etc, and is never getting doubled. Sandstorm becomes more of a free bonus, letting her sometimes vaporise an enemy. It's not something I rely on, but if she doesn't kill an enemy it's no biggy, and she can contribute with her chain assists too. Sandstorm makes defense bonuses more valuable on her too.
She pairs perfectly with Ike imo.
Yeah Timerra's mixed bulk even without a Emblem is nothing to sneeze at. By the time I got her she had comparable bulk to my Louis, but didn't fear mages like he did and had the potential of not being doubled.
I find that Leif works really great on her. It gives her much needed Build to have her make use of her speed. Leif is definitely one of the least contested Emblems, just due to his flawed adaptable mechanic and not so great Engage weapons. However Arms Shield and Vantage are great for enemy phase focused units like her.
I don't think I sunk many resources into her besides the Leif Emblem and an engraved killer lance. Sandstorm crits are spicy.
I slightly disagree, I think pairing her with Sigurd allows her the most advantages, hear me out: As a baseline, you get +1 mov, +3 build, +3 dex, and +3 defense, the three stats timerra most cares about. By shoring up her defense stat with the chapter 19 dracoshield, and a few secret books, making sandstorm consistent starts to feed back into her bulk, which in return feeds back into sandstorm, making the saying "the best offense is a good defense" the most literal metaphor ever.
almost forgot, this also boosts her supportive abilities as well, like most backup units, she'll want dual assist, and the extra move allows that to proc ever slightly more often, allowing her to chain attack from a few spaces farther.
@@thelostician Yeah my build was mostly a showcase of how Timerra can work even without much resources or ones that are not hotly contested.
I imagine Sigurd ring does work great on her. Though there are many characters that want the ring. Its one of the more valuable rings in the game due to all its effects, so it being used on Timerra is certainly no guarentee.
I found using her with Roy was one of her best options.
I still haven't used him, but I think Alcryst has to be in Great Retun, Help Needed solely because he comes with Luna and it can proc using Lyn's Emblem Ring ability per arrow from 10 spaces away. Overall though, I think this is the best tier list I've seen. I'm always stunned when Hortensia is not in the highest tier next to Seadall.
I also appreciate that you have 14 units between No Brainer and the the two Great Investment tiers giving people an idea who to use for their first Maddening Run if they're not sure who to use.
Really great guide and perspective. I completely agree with this ideology that all units have an investment bar but aren't actually unusable or must bench in comparison. Engage is really generous with exp and has a lot of options for customisation and usage due to the rings.
That being said as a LTC fan boy, you gotta love low investment high return units haha. SP is a bitch to farm.
I'm a proud Framme main. I don't know about doing a maddening run, but if I did, I know I would want to have her by my side. 😊
she is useable. good with divine speed art
Craaap…I am having problem with Timerra too, I really like her too.
I think shes really good as a tank.
Easily the best and most helpful Engage tier list I've seen so far. Thank you for taking the time to properly analyze and put this together.
I can get at least a 93% crit with the Lindon I have
Hold Out/Wrath, give him a forged Killer Axe as a Mage Knight so he can still use magic of course
And it works almost right away since Killer Axe is a C rank weapon and every enemy is going to have a B and above so Weapon Instincts will still activate. I suggest using Eirika for when you engrave it (or Camilla if you have the DLC)
You'll have to wait on Hold Out because of a lack of Roy at that point of the game, but hey, Vantage/Wrath is still good since you get Leif a solid 2 levels before Roy XD
I liked this a lot, Really gives good advice on how to use units.
Proof that any unit can be made good, Framme’s growths are similar to Chloé’s, she has less hp growth and has 30% strength and 25% magic instead of Chloé’s 25% strength and 35% magic. Chloé’s bases and growths are better, but she’s not super ahead of framme, she’s definitely ahead just not so much Framme can’t catch up to her bases and grow about as well as her. Forges also can legitimately fix framme’s bad early game offense, and she can go high priest if she wants to additionally gain tomes.
Is it optimal, no, but it’s not hard.
Something to note about Alcryst: I find that he's decent from his recruit through midgame but his low strength can make him fall off, even with Luna, but rather than benching him you can transition him to a good Byleth user, as, other than Dragon, Covert has one of the best versions of Instruct/Goddess Dance in the game but such a small pool of potential users since most Covert classes leave a lot to be desired
No, Marths AVO on Alear Makes every unit have a sub 10% or 0% chance to do no damage to him. By chapter 8 for me with the avo+20 and sword agility 2 Marths Perceptive and Divine Speed (while engaged) paired with AVO+20 Rapier even bosses have a 4% chance to do 8 damage. At the advanced class Divide Dragon the best hit chance I've seen someone have was a magic user at 53%. I put him on the field and can literally only use one unit the entire battle. Key word is can, that's boring kinda but on the maps with annoying mechanics in Maddening it's nice to have some who can solo a large group.
I recently started my maddening run and I gotta say how much I love engages mechanics. You've always been able to make bad units good with investment but this game really feels like you can use any and everyone however you want. Sure some are better, but there are just so many options you have its fun to experiment.
Really great guide! One thing you might want to consider is the value of Draconic Hex. Especially with Saphir and Lindon, they can immediately inherit it, and their access to the Longbow / Thunder means they can safely debuff annoying enemies, especially bosses. Not sure if it’s better than Lucina’s skill on Saphir, though.
I can see that for Lindon and Saphir if you want to use them as chip debuffers.
For Saphir, I like to try for a vantage+/wrath strategy since her “will to win” ability increases her hit rate/avoid by 20 makes her a good crit abuser.
Lindon you can try for something similar with a dire thunder build since he can crit with a lower rank tome.
During my first maddening run, I made what might be a questionable choice, and gave Louis all the speedwings throughout the game.
I promoted him to Great Knight at Lv.10 and was internal level 48 when I finished the game. His speed before any other boosts, was 23. Eating speed meals, and emblem bonuses, kept him below the doubling threshold for most enemies. So he stayed the phenominal early game physical tank... for basically the entire game for me.
Was it efficient? No, but I had fun using him.
Once I circle back around to Maddening it will be interesting to see if my opinion of Diamant changes because for now all I see is a bunch of mad disrespect, lol. On my Hard mode playthrough he was second only to Ivy. Sturdy, hit hard, fast, reliable. Stick him in a choke point with a Tomahawk+1 (becuase I didn't manage my economy well out of ignorance) and Ike that side is completely dealt with. Great Return though arguable how much investment he needs. Probably High but I'll take him over Amber, Zelkov or Fogado any day of the week.
Yunaka v. Zelkov is also one that sticks out as a little of to me. She joins earlier and has better growths, unless you're purposely ignoring her for other units that are also rated lowly I'm not sure why she wouldn't be better than Zelkov by his join time. Specifically, while he has that sweet sweet extra 4 build, Knives are light so who cares? And in exchange she gets 45 RES growth compared to his 15, and since Mystical ignores terrain bonuses and are the thing that's actually dangerous to covert units as a result, that seems like a favorable exchange for her too. They both suffer from that late game damage drop off, but that mens you're working to fix them the same amount. Like I'm not even trying to dunk on Zelkov, he's a good unit but he just seems to clearly be the second best Thief.
I basically agree with everything said about Celine but I do wonder if she's a case where her early availability just makes her better than she otherwise would be. Like when she joins you're going to want to be training Alear, Chloe, and....maybe Framme? Like Louis is good at that point but he does his job without xp. Clanne might be getting some because he can be worked into something decent. But everyone else is definitely worse than Celine, so is it even favoritism to feed her? She was definitely a character I didn't actually intend to use but just ended up being the best available for me a lot of the time.
alear in wyvern / griffin knight with lucina emblem is the best support in the game, provides bonded shield +3 atk to all ur flyers and he has all the supp to use at max the dual support of the lucina emblem gives him insane avoid + avoid engrave u has the ultimate flyer xD. veyle soren ring is the most broken unit in the game, absolute no brainer
Call me madman, but my last run i invested a bunch of second seals on everyone, even the DLC ones, i know it kills the difficulty, but, what can i say, i dont like to have anyone with crappy stats
Rosado I wouldn't put in the same category as Burnet. Rosado is kinda more like Anna/Jean. His bases are bad, but his growths are pretty insane, so once he gets going he's pretty devastateing.
Timmera is weird. It's like; when she gets to Picket lv5 she actually becomes a unit.
Personally I had pretty great results with Celine in her unique class; then going into Gryphon lategame. But Gryphon is just kinda busted anyway on anyone with a passable MAG or STR growth?
Rosado is like Anna and Jean, but has the unfortunate issue of joining 8 chapters before the end of the game. So even if you make the investment, you only get to enjoy the benefits of your labor for a few chapters.
Celine is fine imo. She has late game potential if you want to invest in her.
@@actuallizardRisado also has really easy access to speedtaker, which gives him serviceable wyvern stats. Not great but I’d argue he’s about as good as the Brodie units, although I’m slightly biased as in my 1st playthrough I killed off most of the prepremotes that were better then him. If no one dies it’ll be hard to deploy him, but then you could say the same about diamant.
in my playthrough diamant was the f*cking goat. he would dodge or counter nearly every attack that came his way.
Me opens unit wiki: okay anyone who isn't 30str/mag is benched
Like 3/4 of the best unites in the game: booooo!
Seadall’s probably the best dancer in the series(beyond the FE4 and heron dancers) because he can actually survive a hit. Granted his bulk isn’t massive, but unlike olivia or azura, you don’t have to terminally keep him out of enemy range. He consistently survived hits in my hard mode playthrough(though he wasn’t a tank).
I love the way you make this, but I have some opinions/maddening experience:
1- For me Fogado had a bad time between chapter 14 and warrior reclass. He lacks to much strength. After that he destroys everything with a silver bow
2- in my opinion Alcryst gives great return with medium investment. You only need to inherent him speed and dex, give him a killer bow and shot down any flyer u see, by chapter 15 he will crit or Luna any non tank enemy he attacks
3- I think tymera and diamant are the best tanks in the game, inherent tymera with built and give her a brave lance and Ike and see will tank kill everything. Put lief on diamante and inherent dex and no one will survive attacking him. Later inherent pair up on them and they will sky rocket
4- u should try a panette axe paladin with brave axe and wrath, she is an active player madness
someone suggested jade mage knight and my jade camilla put in some work! (I did give her starsphere from tiki tho)
Okay, maybe Emblem Eirika is just THAT good, but my reclassed Wolf Rider Yunaka was able to one round a good deal of enemies and devastate late game bosses all with a Steel Dagger +4. I was thinking maybe she was blessed in STR, but Maddening forces you into fixed the first time you play it. (I used Merrin, too. Yunaka eclipsed her offensively. I did put Speedtaker on her, though. Maybe that carried)
It's a bit of investment but I like using the Camilla engrave on a killer bow and inherit brute force from Chrom for Alcryst.
I made my pannete a sniper for the no distractions skill with the goal of making her a longbow crit machine. Heres the build.
Reclass to sniper and give the corrin engraving to a longbow.
Give her wrath from ike and get her injured. This can be made easier with hold out.
Watch as the numbers add up
+10 crit from sniper personal
+10 crit from pannete personal
+30 from corrin engraving
+30 from wrath.
Thats 80% crit without factoring pannetes inate crit from her stats. Give her a killer bow to get her 100% crit for when you dont need longbow. Try it out as its kinda destroying the hard to kill sord masters, heros, and wolf knights that plague late game maps.
Framme is fine for her base class because that’s the only thing martial master care about long term. They’ll never do much damage without eirika emblem
Definitely like this style of video giving impressions on roles and investments instead of this unit good, this one bad type of tierlist.
This was a great video! Gave me a lot of good ideas for building my units. I personally found Timerra to be super tanky and fun, but I might be biased since I did invest in her.
32:16 I can’t tell if you were trying to say “Celica” here or not bc that doesn’t sound right at all lol