Pelor "hmm, who should I give more spells to the high priest who fights zero monsters in his day to day or this hero who with 3 buddies is facing a 5,000 year old lich by themselves. This is a tough call."
Cleric: "PELOR, PLEASE!- HE IS GOING TO KILL EVERYONE! PLEASE LEND ME SOME OF YOUR POWER!" Pelor: "Sorry, Cleric. I can't give credit. Come back when you're a little more - hmmm - devoted" Cleric: "WHAT THE FUCK?" Pelor: "Still missing 36 more minutes of prayer, fucko. Get to it if you want my help"
It is easy to be faithful when you live a peaceful life in relative comfort. When you are fighting giant monsters, impossible odds, watching your friends die, and you *still* keep the faith? To me, that's true belief.
Honestly, I think it’s the opposite. Have you ever heard the saying “there’s no atheists in the foxhole”? It basically means that, in times of crisis we will turn to something, anything to save us, and that leads to devotion because you _know_ you need help and cannot do it alone. It’s why, historically, Christianity spreads so much faster, and has much more genuine, passionate followers in places where it’s persecuted. Whereas, in someone’s day-to-day life, it is easy to just exist all on your own and you don’t feel that urgent need for help. It’s easy to think that you “got this”. You can just brush your beliefs to the side and it takes self-discipline to not lose them in the business and tedium of normal life.
@@corbanbausch9049so maybe the fighting one gets more desperate in their faith? Also, you can be an atheist in a foxhole just fine. I went to one in a museum and here i am.
@@corbanbausch9049I find this to be a fascinating conversation. I personally believe it lies somewhere in the middle. I've seen videos of religious people in desperate situations, the most recent one was a Mr Ballen upload, of this devout Christian who got pinned and couldn't move in the wilderness and basically starved to death, multiple days of a hike away from any civilization. And he wrote down his thoughts for like a week or more the entire time. A lot of it is him saying "I know God has a plan for me." "This is just a test of my faith." Maybe not the best example for what I'm going to talk about, because eventually, you see this guy legitimately go through all the stages of grief. He begins to question what he did to deserve this punishment and even gets angry at God for abandoning him etc etc.. which I think is a very natural, and human thing to do. Healthy, even. What I wanted to highlight though, is the delusion of people who say things like "I have the utmost confidence and faith nothing will happen, because my God will protect me." And it's like.. do they not even realize how selfish and cocky it is to even think something like that? You think you're SO important that God himself, assuming he exists, is going to drop everything else and come running, to give you his undivided attention, as soon as you need help? That's so absurd to me it's almost insulting to actual religious people. What I'm talking about specifically, is usually the people who say that right before they get cut down or something. Or God forbid, the people who invoke a statement like that over the tiniest of things. Like "I know I won't be held up in traffic because of my faith in God." Or "I know God would protect me from scammers and evil because of my faith." Thinking that it literally acts as some kind of impervious shield. That last example is an actual real life one I've witnessed first hand. A family member was getting scammed by a con artist and their reasoning for why that isn't true and could never happen was because God wouldn't allow such a thing to happen to them. So yeah.. again, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle, and that extremism is generally a bad thing, what a surprise.
Small correction, I said "selfish" when I was thinking of the word "conceited", it was on the tip of my tongue the entire time and I couldn't quite remember the word I was trying to recall until just now.
Dreamless dorm, ticking clock I walk away from the soundless room Windless night, moonlight melts My ghostly shadow to the lukewarm gloom Nightly dance, of bleeding swords Reminds me that I still live...
"But I've held sermons in your name every day for years!" "In the safety of a church to people who already worship me. While the adventurer goes forth to slay my enemies, spread word of me to the furthest reaches, and bring glory to my name."
A few weeks ago I started reading the gotrek and felix books, and in about the 4th book there is a moment where the wizard max, reflects on how being in real fights against orcs, goblins and even a dragon helps him more to understand his magic than just studying, since he must act fast and try to protect himself and his allies.
Centuries old Cleric: how did you you gain so much power so quickly? Cleric: well it all started with a goblin, and then ended with dragon god. All the time spreading the word of my god. What have you been doing to spread our god's word? Old Cleric: I've been studying and conducting sermons. Cleric: so you're telling me, in 200 years the most you've done is make one city happy? Dude i saved the world 2 weeks ago
Not to mention, the older cleric has likely been preaching to people who ALREADY worship said god. Otherwise, why would they be attending his church? The old guy has literally done fk all for follower numbers while every time the adventurer saves a village there are dozens more true believers, possibly even switching over from other gods.
I think of more as the cleric in combat relies upon a deity more than one that does not fight. The god sees the needs of the fighter and allows them to use more power accordingly.
Yeah. Why would a god give a guy the power to summon huge pillars of divine flame to smite things with if he mostly just sits preaching/praying at church or performing administrative roles? Makes more sense to give more power to the dude actually going through increasingly tougher battles (literally and figuratively), they probably actually do need it if they are to succeed
This is a good point too. I think if there was like a plague, the god would ptobably give the sermon guy some healing/blessing power too. "But no guiding bolt, you don't need to blow a guy up"
Two additional points: 1) The active cleric is doing quite a lot to spread said God's word. If I was a deity from a world plagued by the undead, a cleric that fought a lich would likely be a much stronger beacon of faith than one staying safe in a city. One just puts in way more work. 2) The active cleric is more powerful without the god's blessing. A higher level cleric is tougher, physically and mentally stronger, as well as more skilled. They might just be better at drawing on divine magic than the city priest, and thus, uses higher rank spells.
@@falxblade1352this! The difference between the two clerics doesn't need to be amount of holy energy, the active cleric has just honed and trained their body and mind to use the full extent of it. Do you know how hard using the power of a god must be? absolutely reasonable to assume the guy who's built up way more strength physically, mentally, and spiritually would be able to channel that Much more effectively than the guy that yells "glory to god" in the town square every 2 minutes
I mean there's a difference between a priest and a cleric, a priest is situated ina single place and only needs to do at most a minor heal if any injuries happen in town and beyond that just does sermons they are not an adventurer they only have what they need on hand, a cleric is someone who should embody their god as an active force representing them traveling the land trained to use armor and weapons to defend themselves and others, as a being representing their god they have the power to bestow many miracles to the people they travel with or to the people they come across on their journeys, a cleric is the person you send to deal with a cult trying to tear open a portal to hell, a priest would make holy water, grant blessings or similar things you wouldn't send a welder to do a plumbing job
I think this is also why most campaigns SHOULD be stories that last over a year, or span several hunting one dude. It gives time to big bads and logical progression and experience gain to adventurers
Me when slaying beasts and offering their deaths as tribute for my gods is a more efficient way of gaining favor than sitting still and praying for their strength.
Moses got a book in the Bible about his exploits and Job got a book about remaining faithful while everything around him was taken away over like a week while there were people in Genesis who literally walked beside God and only got a sentence or two. Sometimes it's the struggle that gets you the reward
This is yet again another example of people not reading the flavor of the classes that are in the books because in there it justifies it for you. In the sections titled “Healers and Warriors” “Divine Agents,” the book clearly explains, “Some… are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice…” In those two sections it also says, “When a cleric takes up an adventuring life, it is usually because his or her god demands it,” and, “The gods don’t grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling.” So, quite simply, you are not the chosen one for your god. Billy over there casting the 9th level spells is.
I'd honestly say Cleric would be the easiest class to explain this with! Since all their power is conditional on being in a diety's good graces, being a go-getter teacher's pet who's always off fighting Enemies Of The Faith would obviously grow in power faster than someone who gives speeches from the comfort safety of a temple.
You also gotta keep in mind that a cleric garners more faith in their deity from the people they save with the miracles they can perform than the priest who has set up shop in a temple in a city and simply just needs cure wounds and the ceremony spell to do their job
Archmage: I, myself only learned the spell Fireball after years of study and practice. Nearly a decade, in fact. It was worth minute I spent pouring over the ancient texts. Random Wizard PC: I learned it in a week. I just kiled like 7,000 goblins and sudddenly I could kill way more of them
The way I see it, if YOUR cleric is willing to run up to a dragon terrorizing people, and believe that YOU are badass enough that you will be able to easily give him the powers to kill it- you arnt really going to say no to that. Sure that guy heals 30 people every day, but this fucker thinks you are so cool and believes in you so much he’s going to go kill the dragon hurting the people to begin with- of course your gonna give him a boost of power and a “Atta’ boy!”
The player just needs the power more. Like "This dude is fighting a lot of stuff and he and his friends keep getting badly hurt very often. I should probably give him more power to help deal with this. The guy lounging around in comfort and protection can wait."
This is one of the fundamental things that break my immersion. I personally think every 5 years of life would at least equal a level for a normal person
“What? He does good work. Ya, you heal the sick and all, but this guy killed so many monsters, preventing a lot of people from death by stabbing or getting eaten. Go back to healing, this guy’s doing important work saving the world.”
I always thought about it like the deity gives all their clerics the same amount of power, but only those with enough "experience" can actually use it. Like a Warpriest is sort of bathed in fire and constant battles prepare them more quickly to wield the power they already have.
I think there is a reward for being so devout, regardless of longevity, that you’re willing to stack up the power of your faith vs the horrible other things of the world and run hands.
A thing that I like to do for long term campaigns is to translate levels into in game years of experience. We always start at 5th level, then your next level up is at the end of the "adventuring season" in the winter. I play it out as them spending a good 4 months inside, training, doing odd jobs, and gathering Intel about nearby treasure and monsters. This might not work for everyone since I run things as more survival and travel based over high octane combat and such.
I usually treat it like a strain and capacity to control kind of thing. A god could channel level 9 spells into that cleric in the podunk town. But that much magical energy access and unfamiliarity with it, congratulations, Sunburst was just cast upon the cathedral, everyone is dead in holy fire.
It makes sense because the gods seeing them as doing deeds in their name. Cermons are words and care but battle clerics show the resolve to get things done...though normally my older clerics are retired adventures
I am currently making a cleric who takes this to another level. He is a Reborn Tempest Cleric who gained his powers not by years of devoted prayers, but because the goddess took a liking to him when he once restored a few of her abandoned temples. The funniest part is he did it to honour the craftsmen who built the building.
The way i look at it is this The cleric who gains levels through whorship is only slowly gaining the ability to channel is gaining the power as quickly as their body can handle it, the cleric constantly using the powers in combat is repeatedly emptying and refilling their reserves of divine powers making them able to handle power more quickly.
I like the angle that NPCs have access to different spells and 'classes' than the PCs do. Clerics are given powers by the will of their god, so they tend to get what powers will help them do the thing their gods want them doing, and in the case of your party cleric, that's usually fighting evil. In the case of your high priest doing sermons, they're essentially a different class that gets different abilities, because the thing your god wants them doing is sermons and leading the faith. So, like, they've got stuff for births, they've got stuff for inducting new people into the god's service, Greater Thaumaturgy, that is their class's equivalent of those 9th level cleric spells.
This is why you use milestone. Sure, the NPC has spent many years defending a town from low-level gobbos and the such in the name of their diety, but the PC? The PC is on a crusade
I use a sistem where a class must meet a certain criteria before leveling up, so like a rogue thats caotic has to steal 1000 gold worth of stuff without getting caught
There is also the logic that the deity is merely teaching the spells, the slots and powers are still the cleric's. (this was obviously not the case in earlier editions, you follow the deity or lose your spells.) So normal learn faster in harsher environments logic applies.
this is why i stick to milestone levling xp can just go so crazy so fast (and i do alot of homebrew creations and have a hard time figuring out xp amounts) it alows for a more controled leveling and in my opinion makes it more rewarding, expecially if its connected to something important to the characters,
Tbf, someone being put in life threating situations and still adhering to the way of life you espouse is probably worth more brownie points than simple temple worship is
I would recommend peppering in characters that explain this in the world if you want to make this feel more realistic. Maybe a small town's level 3 cleric is missing a leg. He can tell the adventurers he was traveling with a party until they were attacked by a dragon, and he was the only survivor. Later on, they are contacted by a secretive investor to find an ancient text from a dungeon. It turns out it's the country's Archmagus, he has to serve the king and can't adventure anymore, but he hasn't given up on his original quest to find and collect all of the texts about his ancient magical order.
If you're an prest, going through the motions and dealing with the day to day issues of a medium sized town it makes sense that you're not getting the experience you need to level up. An adventuror levels faster because they are being exposed to a lot of new situations!
I once worked this kinda thing out in terms of HP. In the real world, a good punch can send you to the hospital or even kill you. The most damage a punch can do without being a monk or having the unarmed fighting style is six, assuming your DM lets you add your strength mod to it. Now, most level one characters would be "hospitalized" by that (it would probably deal more than half their max hp, which is enough to cause a permanent injury if you use that rule), but right from level 2, a decent number of characters could take that punch and at worst have a bruise or a bloodied nose
In the light novel series "Full Clearing Another World Under a Goddess with Zero Believers", the main character gains the ability to dedicate his kills to a goddess in exchange for a boon. I assume it functions in a similar way in D&D, that enemies slain by a cleric or their party are dedicated to their god and thus grant them incrementally more power, ultimately making them far stronger than the average temple priest.
Its not the years of study and prayer that matter. Its the grand deeds in the name of your god and all that they stand for that not only strengthen you as a person, but make your god more inclined to give you more power Then sprinkle a little "your PC just happens to be the newest prophet" and youre good to go
Maybe you could explain it being fair because: Yes spending time studying is longer but it's much less dangerous, whereas a cleric who is actively fighting for their life to get stronger is earning more as a result of it. It's like taking a stroll vs full form sprinting while dogs nip at your ankles.
Alternatively, look at the results. The old guy in the church is preaching to people who are ALREADY followers in the god. Otherwise, why would they be attending his church? Whereas every time the adventurer saves a village, there are dozens of new true believers, possibly even converting from other gods. A single adventurer might create thousands of times more followers over his career. It's one thing to be told Pelor will save you. It's another thing entirely to be under the threat of a vampire lord then watch as a radiant conduit of divine power mows down an entire army of undead to liberate you.
Most players forget that spells take energy from the caster, casting the same spell at higher levels exhaust the caster physically more than at lower spell slots. Of course, the guy trecking across the continent in full camping gear killing monsters is gonna have more vitality than Steve, your local priest with a desk job lol.
Consider that the priest who only conducts sermons for years likely isn't doing all they could with their divine powers, and doesn't go out of their way to be in situations to make the most of them. An adventuring cleric, however, is likely in a constant crusade of sorts for their god, and making use of their powers to the fullest every day, prompting their deity to grant them higher abilities so that they can handle bigger threats. The sermon priest is not facing threats that warrant 5th level spells. The most they ever use their divine power for is probably to cure a minor disease or heal a small wound. Deific power follows need, not want.
That ninth level spell can save someone for a day, but what about the rest of them? For the millions days an adventurer isn't around kindness can be found through every sermon.
This is why the implentation of milestone lvls is important. A combination works best. For example a god would apreciate you fighting in their service but also you spreading their influence. That way xp isn’t exclusive to murder.
I sprinkle a few leveled characters here and there under the justification they do level up but just not in combat ways. So a high level priest can cast healing magic without issue but probably does not have much in a fight. A wizard who's only been a professor can cast and do magic the adventuring wizard would never believe possible but wouldn't know what to do with a fireball. That blacksmith knows how to use a sword as much as he can make it but he doesn't know tactics and other subtleties that the fighter might know so he mostly brute forces his fights. This does two things it makes the heroes and world seem more connected. And makes murder hobos think twice
I would, personally,combine four things:-clerics need to groe w their own soul to be able to recieve more power from their god. One of charges and rituals are ok, but permanent class levels are still a thing that can be felt. -not everyone grows equally quickly. The pcs are at the upper level of that graph. -in this world,people grow quicker the more chaos is around them,and the better they handle that chaos -this all works, because the being in charge(helm,THE CREATOR,whoever is in charge) designed the world this way. Growing until you become godlike(or a god) is the point
This is generally why older editions had time roadblocks on levelup features. You were supposed to spend weeks learning how to perform your feats, get that +1 to hit, that ability score upgrade mostly came from magic tomes and items rather than every 4th level and so on. You were also supposed to focus more on growing your followers rather than being individually strong, so older editions stopped at around 10th level advancement for most classes. And if you played a demi-human, you weren't even going to get that far because classes had level caps per race.
on that note i run milestone. but if you are a traveling cleric, doing the will of your god, you are at risk and a active force while some one doing there sermons everyday, you are a passive maintenance force. it is the difference between a fighter practising everyday with a training dummy, or traveling and fighting in wars or sparing with exotic and diffrent people.
Counterpoint, if a cleric has to survive countless battles with unspeakable horrors from outer space, crimes against the natural world made by a mad wizard, demons and devils putting aside their differences to kill them, and undead that are so powerful that they resist Turn Undead, doesn't become more attune with their faith they should just pick fighter instead.
I think it's important in this type of situation to understand exactly *_HOW_* the gods of D&D and its descendants function. Specifically, it's important to note that gods aren't _properly_ omniscient. They can *ELECT* to perceive everything within a 500 mile radius of someone that's said their name, which makes them *_MUCH_* more potent than any divination wizard, but it's still an elective feature they have, not a passive one. In fact, most of the time the gods are so embroiled in both the actual work involved in their portfolios and taking their place in conflicts that have been raging since before mortal life even existed, so most of what's accomplished is a direct result of how their portfolio is set up, which is then reinforced by the belief of mortals; of whom their souls possess sparks of Creation itself that molds how powerful the gods are in those particular planes/spheres of reality. To that end, it's only the *_REALLY_* loud mortals that truly get a god's attention. Those who are constantly demanding actual proper power and not just passive prayers. Then the god sees just what all they've accomplished, and bam, more powers earned. Why's that? Because a single priest might be able to keep the majority of a village, a town, or even a sprawling metropolis aligned to that god & their ideals, but an adventuring cleric? Their journies take them across nations, possibly even continents, spreading the word of their deity not only in words but in actions as well. To that end, of *_COURSE_* the cleric is going to get more effects & more powerful spells, their actions are directly making that deity more powerful on that plane
I will always do milestone. Unless I make a campaign specifically designed for xp. My players would find an Xp loop hole and be max level first session.
I'd think that having enough faith in your god to literally jump headlong into life or death situations on a daily basis would rack up favor pretty quickly. Sure, you could preach the word of your god from the safety of a temple, provide healing to those that are sick or slightly wounded, or you could risk your own life on the frontlines to save those on the brink of death that are working with you to assumably meet the goals of your deity. And this especially applies to anything war domain of course.
I usually see it as NPC clerics are not chosen for the powerful abilities because they are not called to that duty. I have many NPCs that have access to 9th level spells though, and my party is continually trying to recruit them. "My Gods bestowed powers are for the strict duty of specifically aiding this holy site and I am not permitted to leave". Party once convinced one to leave, and he immediately got all of his divine powers removed before he repented and regained them to remain there. They never attempted it again, except a bard to a priestess
I definitely agree with this sentiment, though the comments here helped illuminate how this discrepancy makes sense for clerics risking their lives daily for their faith and allies. What I find really difficult to explain, however, is the division between NPC and PC wizards. A class that is built around the constant study and practice of magic should definitely reward years of study and careful, precise experimentation. Of course that having been said, I know there are some pretty powerful NPC stat blocks for wizards, and it does make sense that PC wizards will develop new spells because they're constantly practicing and witnessing new powers on the field, not even counting finding new spellbooks; though I will say, wizards are probably the best argument you could make for possibly getting more powerful or more EXP during downtime or study. (Though that would also throw off party balance, so... maybe not 😅)
This can be taken in multiple different directions, all depending on how you want your cosmology to work. You can have gods treating the mortals worshipping them like free entertainment, rewarding those who are leading adventurous lives because why would they watch someone who lives a highly regimented lifestyle of a priest? This works well with EXP levelling because it doesn't matter what you did to level up, as long as it kept your gods attention on you. You can have gods maintaining a delicate balance/fighting against their rivals or powers endangering the world so they reward those of their worshippers who are actively helping the cause. This works well with "deed" based levelling. There are other options as well but if you really want to justify the difference between NPC clerics and PC ones those two work pretty well.
I also hate that. One way I deal with it is by using time skips, the game mostly happens when PCs are on the precipice of leveling up. Another way was with a magical item, the “milestone”, which takes away years of their life in exchange for a proportional level boost.
I mean, usually the pc is doing the fighting for good(or bad, depends on the deity) but also doing the sermons and spreading the word. So it makes sense to me. Just remember to not leave the npc statics
Personally i use the argument that a cleric on the field fighting evil for their god would need higher level spells to do their bidding then the avg priest of a smallish city would so it kinda balances out
Pelor "hmm, who should I give more spells to the high priest who fights zero monsters in his day to day or this hero who with 3 buddies is facing a 5,000 year old lich by themselves. This is a tough call."
Cleric: "PELOR, PLEASE!- HE IS GOING TO KILL EVERYONE! PLEASE LEND ME SOME OF YOUR POWER!"
Pelor: "Sorry, Cleric. I can't give credit. Come back when you're a little more - hmmm - devoted"
Cleric: "WHAT THE FUCK?"
Pelor: "Still missing 36 more minutes of prayer, fucko. Get to it if you want my help"
Union Rules, pal. Father Featherton has an older card than you, he gets his first pick at the spell list
It is easy to be faithful when you live a peaceful life in relative comfort. When you are fighting giant monsters, impossible odds, watching your friends die, and you *still* keep the faith? To me, that's true belief.
Honestly, I think it’s the opposite. Have you ever heard the saying “there’s no atheists in the foxhole”? It basically means that, in times of crisis we will turn to something, anything to save us, and that leads to devotion because you _know_ you need help and cannot do it alone. It’s why, historically, Christianity spreads so much faster, and has much more genuine, passionate followers in places where it’s persecuted. Whereas, in someone’s day-to-day life, it is easy to just exist all on your own and you don’t feel that urgent need for help. It’s easy to think that you “got this”. You can just brush your beliefs to the side and it takes self-discipline to not lose them in the business and tedium of normal life.
@@corbanbausch9049so maybe the fighting one gets more desperate in their faith?
Also, you can be an atheist in a foxhole just fine. I went to one in a museum and here i am.
@@corbanbausch9049I find this to be a fascinating conversation. I personally believe it lies somewhere in the middle.
I've seen videos of religious people in desperate situations, the most recent one was a Mr Ballen upload, of this devout Christian who got pinned and couldn't move in the wilderness and basically starved to death, multiple days of a hike away from any civilization. And he wrote down his thoughts for like a week or more the entire time. A lot of it is him saying "I know God has a plan for me." "This is just a test of my faith."
Maybe not the best example for what I'm going to talk about, because eventually, you see this guy legitimately go through all the stages of grief. He begins to question what he did to deserve this punishment and even gets angry at God for abandoning him etc etc.. which I think is a very natural, and human thing to do. Healthy, even.
What I wanted to highlight though, is the delusion of people who say things like "I have the utmost confidence and faith nothing will happen, because my God will protect me." And it's like.. do they not even realize how selfish and cocky it is to even think something like that? You think you're SO important that God himself, assuming he exists, is going to drop everything else and come running, to give you his undivided attention, as soon as you need help? That's so absurd to me it's almost insulting to actual religious people.
What I'm talking about specifically, is usually the people who say that right before they get cut down or something. Or God forbid, the people who invoke a statement like that over the tiniest of things. Like "I know I won't be held up in traffic because of my faith in God." Or "I know God would protect me from scammers and evil because of my faith." Thinking that it literally acts as some kind of impervious shield.
That last example is an actual real life one I've witnessed first hand. A family member was getting scammed by a con artist and their reasoning for why that isn't true and could never happen was because God wouldn't allow such a thing to happen to them.
So yeah.. again, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle, and that extremism is generally a bad thing, what a surprise.
Small correction, I said "selfish" when I was thinking of the word "conceited", it was on the tip of my tongue the entire time and I couldn't quite remember the word I was trying to recall until just now.
@@darkness988 am i missing a comment here?
Almost dying sends them closer to God than ever, so it adds up, in a way.
High risk, high reward!
Dreamless dorm, ticking clock
I walk away from the soundless room
Windless night, moonlight melts
My ghostly shadow to the lukewarm gloom
Nightly dance, of bleeding swords
Reminds me that I still live...
Cleric: God.... what the f###
God: see this is the aditude that keeps you from getting more spells
"But I've held sermons in your name every day for years!"
"In the safety of a church to people who already worship me. While the adventurer goes forth to slay my enemies, spread word of me to the furthest reaches, and bring glory to my name."
A few weeks ago I started reading the gotrek and felix books, and in about the 4th book there is a moment where the wizard max, reflects on how being in real fights against orcs, goblins and even a dragon helps him more to understand his magic than just studying, since he must act fast and try to protect himself and his allies.
i mean you find out real fast which spells keep you alive and if your winning how effective they are.
There're a lot more tests of faith out in the world than inside the temple.
Centuries old Cleric: how did you you gain so much power so quickly?
Cleric: well it all started with a goblin, and then ended with dragon god. All the time spreading the word of my god. What have you been doing to spread our god's word?
Old Cleric: I've been studying and conducting sermons.
Cleric: so you're telling me, in 200 years the most you've done is make one city happy? Dude i saved the world 2 weeks ago
Not to mention, the older cleric has likely been preaching to people who ALREADY worship said god. Otherwise, why would they be attending his church? The old guy has literally done fk all for follower numbers while every time the adventurer saves a village there are dozens more true believers, possibly even switching over from other gods.
I think of more as the cleric in combat relies upon a deity more than one that does not fight. The god sees the needs of the fighter and allows them to use more power accordingly.
Yeah.
Why would a god give a guy the power to summon huge pillars of divine flame to smite things with if he mostly just sits preaching/praying at church or performing administrative roles?
Makes more sense to give more power to the dude actually going through increasingly tougher battles (literally and figuratively), they probably actually do need it if they are to succeed
This is a good point too.
I think if there was like a plague, the god would ptobably give the sermon guy some healing/blessing power too.
"But no guiding bolt, you don't need to blow a guy up"
Two additional points:
1) The active cleric is doing quite a lot to spread said God's word. If I was a deity from a world plagued by the undead, a cleric that fought a lich would likely be a much stronger beacon of faith than one staying safe in a city. One just puts in way more work.
2) The active cleric is more powerful without the god's blessing. A higher level cleric is tougher, physically and mentally stronger, as well as more skilled. They might just be better at drawing on divine magic than the city priest, and thus, uses higher rank spells.
@@falxblade1352this! The difference between the two clerics doesn't need to be amount of holy energy, the active cleric has just honed and trained their body and mind to use the full extent of it. Do you know how hard using the power of a god must be? absolutely reasonable to assume the guy who's built up way more strength physically, mentally, and spiritually would be able to channel that Much more effectively than the guy that yells "glory to god" in the town square every 2 minutes
No such thing as an Oath breaker in a foxhole?
I mean there's a difference between a priest and a cleric, a priest is situated ina single place and only needs to do at most a minor heal if any injuries happen in town and beyond that just does sermons they are not an adventurer they only have what they need on hand, a cleric is someone who should embody their god as an active force representing them traveling the land trained to use armor and weapons to defend themselves and others, as a being representing their god they have the power to bestow many miracles to the people they travel with or to the people they come across on their journeys, a cleric is the person you send to deal with a cult trying to tear open a portal to hell, a priest would make holy water, grant blessings or similar things you wouldn't send a welder to do a plumbing job
Warlock: That's why you should have a real contract, dear spirit simp.
I think this is also why most campaigns SHOULD be stories that last over a year, or span several hunting one dude. It gives time to big bads and logical progression and experience gain to adventurers
this is why my group’s DM does story-based leveling. Like, we level up when it feels appropriate for the story.
I would argue that is because the standard exp curve would put you at 18th level in only 2 weeks game time.
But yeah, level up on the story's time.
This is one of the main arguments as to why players leveling are better being achievement based and decided by the DM.
I view it as taking a more active role in the world. Going out to smite evil vs sermons and *telling* people to go smite evil.
That’s why I appreciate that my campaign has seen our characters in basically nonstop combat save the world mode for around 3 years now
That is why PCs are ALWAYS some sort of chosen ones theyre special
Hey tbf, you'd be praying to your deity a lot more if you fight world ending horrors every other month
Me when slaying beasts and offering their deaths as tribute for my gods is a more efficient way of gaining favor than sitting still and praying for their strength.
Moses got a book in the Bible about his exploits and Job got a book about remaining faithful while everything around him was taken away over like a week while there were people in Genesis who literally walked beside God and only got a sentence or two. Sometimes it's the struggle that gets you the reward
This is yet again another example of people not reading the flavor of the classes that are in the books because in there it justifies it for you. In the sections titled “Healers and Warriors” “Divine Agents,” the book clearly explains, “Some… are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice…” In those two sections it also says, “When a cleric takes up an adventuring life, it is usually because his or her god demands it,” and, “The gods don’t grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling.” So, quite simply, you are not the chosen one for your god. Billy over there casting the 9th level spells is.
I'd honestly say Cleric would be the easiest class to explain this with! Since all their power is conditional on being in a diety's good graces, being a go-getter teacher's pet who's always off fighting Enemies Of The Faith would obviously grow in power faster than someone who gives speeches from the comfort safety of a temple.
You also gotta keep in mind that a cleric garners more faith in their deity from the people they save with the miracles they can perform than the priest who has set up shop in a temple in a city and simply just needs cure wounds and the ceremony spell to do their job
Now you understand how wizards feel when sorcerers just sneeze a fireball off rip no study
Archmage: I, myself only learned the spell Fireball after years of study and practice. Nearly a decade, in fact. It was worth minute I spent pouring over the ancient texts.
Random Wizard PC: I learned it in a week. I just kiled like 7,000 goblins and sudddenly I could kill way more of them
introduce the concept of a High Human with an accelerated growth rate. you know, like a High Elf.
The way I see it, if YOUR cleric is willing to run up to a dragon terrorizing people, and believe that YOU are badass enough that you will be able to easily give him the powers to kill it- you arnt really going to say no to that.
Sure that guy heals 30 people every day, but this fucker thinks you are so cool and believes in you so much he’s going to go kill the dragon hurting the people to begin with- of course your gonna give him a boost of power and a “Atta’ boy!”
this is the funniest way you could describe this
The player just needs the power more. Like "This dude is fighting a lot of stuff and he and his friends keep getting badly hurt very often. I should probably give him more power to help deal with this. The guy lounging around in comfort and protection can wait."
Confirmed: Totally has no clue how religion works.
This is one of the fundamental things that break my immersion. I personally think every 5 years of life would at least equal a level for a normal person
“What? He does good work. Ya, you heal the sick and all, but this guy killed so many monsters, preventing a lot of people from death by stabbing or getting eaten. Go back to healing, this guy’s doing important work saving the world.”
The solution to this is milestone leveling. Btw.
Lol
field work is the best teacher ...
Two words: Narrative Causality
I always thought about it like the deity gives all their clerics the same amount of power, but only those with enough "experience" can actually use it. Like a Warpriest is sort of bathed in fire and constant battles prepare them more quickly to wield the power they already have.
Or... those who serve in times of peace do not need the power to slay monsters.
Just think about it, you'll get it eventually.
God rates followers based off how much televisionable content they produce.
I see it as a pc cleric is being led on a journey set forth by the god and the god is matching their triumph with strength
I think there is a reward for being so devout, regardless of longevity, that you’re willing to stack up the power of your faith vs the horrible other things of the world and run hands.
The cleric who's just giving sermons isn't being pushed to actually get better.
A thing that I like to do for long term campaigns is to translate levels into in game years of experience. We always start at 5th level, then your next level up is at the end of the "adventuring season" in the winter. I play it out as them spending a good 4 months inside, training, doing odd jobs, and gathering Intel about nearby treasure and monsters. This might not work for everyone since I run things as more survival and travel based over high octane combat and such.
The inherent weakness of combat exp based leveling systems.
Risk vs reward
This is why i use milestones
I don't know if I would want more powerful miracles as the result of a year of being in constant danger of dying horribly eaten by monsters.
I usually treat it like a strain and capacity to control kind of thing. A god could channel level 9 spells into that cleric in the podunk town. But that much magical energy access and unfamiliarity with it, congratulations, Sunburst was just cast upon the cathedral, everyone is dead in holy fire.
It makes sense because the gods seeing them as doing deeds in their name. Cermons are words and care but battle clerics show the resolve to get things done...though normally my older clerics are retired adventures
That’s why I like milestone
It's a risk-reward deal.
Risk vs reward. High priest praying in town for 50 years < the guy out risking his life for the town for 2 years
i figured the reason for quick power ups is because of the danger PCs face
I think Sorcerer probably makes the most sense for gaining levels quickly. Their entire class is all about getting it easy
Milestone baby
Superior to XP in every way
Clerics just get sent the spells the god knows the cleric needs to survive and continue acting on the god's behalf.
Here’s an idea: non adventurer clerics get less spells, but more spell slots; their years of devotion give ore endurance
Daily quests give very little xp, but many NPCs can't go on adventures, so that's often their only source of XP.
I am currently making a cleric who takes this to another level. He is a Reborn Tempest Cleric who gained his powers not by years of devoted prayers, but because the goddess took a liking to him when he once restored a few of her abandoned temples.
The funniest part is he did it to honour the craftsmen who built the building.
The way i look at it is this
The cleric who gains levels through whorship is only slowly gaining the ability to channel is gaining the power as quickly as their body can handle it, the cleric constantly using the powers in combat is repeatedly emptying and refilling their reserves of divine powers making them able to handle power more quickly.
I like the angle that NPCs have access to different spells and 'classes' than the PCs do. Clerics are given powers by the will of their god, so they tend to get what powers will help them do the thing their gods want them doing, and in the case of your party cleric, that's usually fighting evil. In the case of your high priest doing sermons, they're essentially a different class that gets different abilities, because the thing your god wants them doing is sermons and leading the faith. So, like, they've got stuff for births, they've got stuff for inducting new people into the god's service, Greater Thaumaturgy, that is their class's equivalent of those 9th level cleric spells.
Well compared to being in a church, I’m sure almost dying every day would bring you closer to god.
This is why you use milestone. Sure, the NPC has spent many years defending a town from low-level gobbos and the such in the name of their diety, but the PC?
The PC is on a crusade
I use a sistem where a class must meet a certain criteria before leveling up, so like a rogue thats caotic has to steal 1000 gold worth of stuff without getting caught
There is also the logic that the deity is merely teaching the spells, the slots and powers are still the cleric's. (this was obviously not the case in earlier editions, you follow the deity or lose your spells.)
So normal learn faster in harsher environments logic applies.
Sometimes I wonder how much of it is just joking around and how many dnd players just do not understand the concept of abstraction
This is why milestone leveling is superior.
I always just think PC are chosen ones, god has special notice on them all the time.
this is why i stick to milestone levling xp can just go so crazy so fast (and i do alot of homebrew creations and have a hard time figuring out xp amounts) it alows for a more controled leveling and in my opinion makes it more rewarding, expecially if its connected to something important to the characters,
Tbf, someone being put in life threating situations and still adhering to the way of life you espouse is probably worth more brownie points than simple temple worship is
I would recommend peppering in characters that explain this in the world if you want to make this feel more realistic. Maybe a small town's level 3 cleric is missing a leg. He can tell the adventurers he was traveling with a party until they were attacked by a dragon, and he was the only survivor. Later on, they are contacted by a secretive investor to find an ancient text from a dungeon. It turns out it's the country's Archmagus, he has to serve the king and can't adventure anymore, but he hasn't given up on his original quest to find and collect all of the texts about his ancient magical order.
If you're an prest, going through the motions and dealing with the day to day issues of a medium sized town it makes sense that you're not getting the experience you need to level up. An adventuror levels faster because they are being exposed to a lot of new situations!
Your duties don't require such power.
I once worked this kinda thing out in terms of HP. In the real world, a good punch can send you to the hospital or even kill you. The most damage a punch can do without being a monk or having the unarmed fighting style is six, assuming your DM lets you add your strength mod to it. Now, most level one characters would be "hospitalized" by that (it would probably deal more than half their max hp, which is enough to cause a permanent injury if you use that rule), but right from level 2, a decent number of characters could take that punch and at worst have a bruise or a bloodied nose
In the light novel series "Full Clearing Another World Under a Goddess with Zero Believers", the main character gains the ability to dedicate his kills to a goddess in exchange for a boon. I assume it functions in a similar way in D&D, that enemies slain by a cleric or their party are dedicated to their god and thus grant them incrementally more power, ultimately making them far stronger than the average temple priest.
Its not the years of study and prayer that matter.
Its the grand deeds in the name of your god and all that they stand for that not only strengthen you as a person, but make your god more inclined to give you more power
Then sprinkle a little "your PC just happens to be the newest prophet" and youre good to go
Maybe you could explain it being fair because:
Yes spending time studying is longer but it's much less dangerous, whereas a cleric who is actively fighting for their life to get stronger is earning more as a result of it.
It's like taking a stroll vs full form sprinting while dogs nip at your ankles.
Alternatively, look at the results. The old guy in the church is preaching to people who are ALREADY followers in the god. Otherwise, why would they be attending his church? Whereas every time the adventurer saves a village, there are dozens of new true believers, possibly even converting from other gods. A single adventurer might create thousands of times more followers over his career. It's one thing to be told Pelor will save you. It's another thing entirely to be under the threat of a vampire lord then watch as a radiant conduit of divine power mows down an entire army of undead to liberate you.
Their faith in their diety is untested if they spend their life in a church.
Most players forget that spells take energy from the caster, casting the same spell at higher levels exhaust the caster physically more than at lower spell slots. Of course, the guy trecking across the continent in full camping gear killing monsters is gonna have more vitality than Steve, your local priest with a desk job lol.
Who does more, in theory, to further the deity's will in the world? If your PCs are playing right, it'll be the cleric, hands down
Consider that the priest who only conducts sermons for years likely isn't doing all they could with their divine powers, and doesn't go out of their way to be in situations to make the most of them. An adventuring cleric, however, is likely in a constant crusade of sorts for their god, and making use of their powers to the fullest every day, prompting their deity to grant them higher abilities so that they can handle bigger threats. The sermon priest is not facing threats that warrant 5th level spells. The most they ever use their divine power for is probably to cure a minor disease or heal a small wound. Deific power follows need, not want.
Hence, milestone levelling, instead of xp
That ninth level spell can save someone for a day, but what about the rest of them? For the millions days an adventurer isn't around kindness can be found through every sermon.
This is why the implentation of milestone lvls is important. A combination works best. For example a god would apreciate you fighting in their service but also you spreading their influence. That way xp isn’t exclusive to murder.
I sprinkle a few leveled characters here and there under the justification they do level up but just not in combat ways. So a high level priest can cast healing magic without issue but probably does not have much in a fight. A wizard who's only been a professor can cast and do magic the adventuring wizard would never believe possible but wouldn't know what to do with a fireball. That blacksmith knows how to use a sword as much as he can make it but he doesn't know tactics and other subtleties that the fighter might know so he mostly brute forces his fights.
This does two things it makes the heroes and world seem more connected. And makes murder hobos think twice
I would, personally,combine four things:-clerics need to groe w their own soul to be able to recieve more power from their god. One of charges and rituals are ok, but permanent class levels are still a thing that can be felt. -not everyone grows equally quickly. The pcs are at the upper level of that graph. -in this world,people grow quicker the more chaos is around them,and the better they handle that chaos -this all works, because the being in charge(helm,THE CREATOR,whoever is in charge) designed the world this way. Growing until you become godlike(or a god) is the point
Well to be fair the pc cleric uses the gifts more so they get more.
Yes, tell her full stop.
This is generally why older editions had time roadblocks on levelup features. You were supposed to spend weeks learning how to perform your feats, get that +1 to hit, that ability score upgrade mostly came from magic tomes and items rather than every 4th level and so on. You were also supposed to focus more on growing your followers rather than being individually strong, so older editions stopped at around 10th level advancement for most classes. And if you played a demi-human, you weren't even going to get that far because classes had level caps per race.
Milestone users:
on that note i run milestone. but if you are a traveling cleric, doing the will of your god, you are at risk and a active force while some one doing there sermons everyday, you are a passive maintenance force. it is the difference between a fighter practising everyday with a training dummy, or traveling and fighting in wars or sparing with exotic and diffrent people.
God's prefer those who do works in their names, more then those who speak.
Counterpoint, if a cleric has to survive countless battles with unspeakable horrors from outer space, crimes against the natural world made by a mad wizard, demons and devils putting aside their differences to kill them, and undead that are so powerful that they resist Turn Undead, doesn't become more attune with their faith they should just pick fighter instead.
Clerics are the easy ones to explain. Their deity blesses them in particilar for their hard work.
I think it's important in this type of situation to understand exactly *_HOW_* the gods of D&D and its descendants function. Specifically, it's important to note that gods aren't _properly_ omniscient. They can *ELECT* to perceive everything within a 500 mile radius of someone that's said their name, which makes them *_MUCH_* more potent than any divination wizard, but it's still an elective feature they have, not a passive one. In fact, most of the time the gods are so embroiled in both the actual work involved in their portfolios and taking their place in conflicts that have been raging since before mortal life even existed, so most of what's accomplished is a direct result of how their portfolio is set up, which is then reinforced by the belief of mortals; of whom their souls possess sparks of Creation itself that molds how powerful the gods are in those particular planes/spheres of reality.
To that end, it's only the *_REALLY_* loud mortals that truly get a god's attention. Those who are constantly demanding actual proper power and not just passive prayers. Then the god sees just what all they've accomplished, and bam, more powers earned. Why's that? Because a single priest might be able to keep the majority of a village, a town, or even a sprawling metropolis aligned to that god & their ideals, but an adventuring cleric? Their journies take them across nations, possibly even continents, spreading the word of their deity not only in words but in actions as well. To that end, of *_COURSE_* the cleric is going to get more effects & more powerful spells, their actions are directly making that deity more powerful on that plane
I will always do milestone. Unless I make a campaign specifically designed for xp. My players would find an Xp loop hole and be max level first session.
I'd think that having enough faith in your god to literally jump headlong into life or death situations on a daily basis would rack up favor pretty quickly. Sure, you could preach the word of your god from the safety of a temple, provide healing to those that are sick or slightly wounded, or you could risk your own life on the frontlines to save those on the brink of death that are working with you to assumably meet the goals of your deity.
And this especially applies to anything war domain of course.
I usually see it as NPC clerics are not chosen for the powerful abilities because they are not called to that duty. I have many NPCs that have access to 9th level spells though, and my party is continually trying to recruit them. "My Gods bestowed powers are for the strict duty of specifically aiding this holy site and I am not permitted to leave". Party once convinced one to leave, and he immediately got all of his divine powers removed before he repented and regained them to remain there. They never attempted it again, except a bard to a priestess
I definitely agree with this sentiment, though the comments here helped illuminate how this discrepancy makes sense for clerics risking their lives daily for their faith and allies.
What I find really difficult to explain, however, is the division between NPC and PC wizards. A class that is built around the constant study and practice of magic should definitely reward years of study and careful, precise experimentation. Of course that having been said, I know there are some pretty powerful NPC stat blocks for wizards, and it does make sense that PC wizards will develop new spells because they're constantly practicing and witnessing new powers on the field, not even counting finding new spellbooks; though I will say, wizards are probably the best argument you could make for possibly getting more powerful or more EXP during downtime or study. (Though that would also throw off party balance, so... maybe not 😅)
This can be taken in multiple different directions, all depending on how you want your cosmology to work. You can have gods treating the mortals worshipping them like free entertainment, rewarding those who are leading adventurous lives because why would they watch someone who lives a highly regimented lifestyle of a priest? This works well with EXP levelling because it doesn't matter what you did to level up, as long as it kept your gods attention on you.
You can have gods maintaining a delicate balance/fighting against their rivals or powers endangering the world so they reward those of their worshippers who are actively helping the cause. This works well with "deed" based levelling.
There are other options as well but if you really want to justify the difference between NPC clerics and PC ones those two work pretty well.
I also hate that. One way I deal with it is by using time skips, the game mostly happens when PCs are on the precipice of leveling up. Another way was with a magical item, the “milestone”, which takes away years of their life in exchange for a proportional level boost.
I mean, usually the pc is doing the fighting for good(or bad, depends on the deity) but also doing the sermons and spreading the word.
So it makes sense to me.
Just remember to not leave the npc statics
Personally i use the argument that a cleric on the field fighting evil for their god would need higher level spells to do their bidding then the avg priest of a smallish city would so it kinda balances out
I suppose it makes more sense when a campaign takes place over in-game years instead of happening continuously every day or week with no downtime.