Did Anne Boleyn miscarry a deformed foetus?
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- Опубликовано: 27 янв 2019
- And, yes, that's how us Brits spell it - "foetus".
On 29th January 1536, Queen Anne Boleyn suffered a tragic miscarriage. It is often said that she miscarried a deformed foetus, or even a "monster", but is this true? Claire Ridgway, author of "The Fall of Anne Boleyn: A Countdown", looks at what the contemporary sources say.
You can find Claire at:
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www.tudorsociety.com
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I always think Anne had been a victim of Henry's selfishness. When he was ready to throw her away he basically allowed her enemies to come up with monsterous slander of her
geez all his wives were.poor chicks!
well... Nobody told to Anne to have a relationship with a married king. She found her own fate by herself.
Anne got to comfortable in her position. The easy work was drawing him in with her charm and playing hard to get. Henry literally broke away from Rome for her and started Church of England , all for her. The hard work was keeping him interested in her charms. Not producing a male heir hurt her value. But she made enemies of the wrong people. And had a false sense of security. She made it above her station but didn’t know the real game had just started. That’s why Queen Elizabeth story is so amazing. She never gave way to a false sense of security and was always on the lookout for enemies. She saw her mother’s missteps and how power and lust of power corrupts.
Poor Anne, it's awful how many lies get told about her all these years after her unjust execution!
This really hits home. I had my twins prematurely at 22 and 24 weeks and I can’t imagine that pain and the magnitude of that loss.
Catherine and Ann both only produced one child but had many miscarriages. Their common thread is Henry. I believe it had something to do with Henry's DNA or disease.
I agree there must have been something going on because when he finally had Edward he was a sickly child and died young anyway there's also the suspected infertility of Elizabeth and Mary given that neither had children, makes you wonder
It is also possible that Elizabeth the 1st of ENGLAND was intersex @@rach_laze
@@alisonmartin3053 that's also very possible but for all 3 children and 3 of his wives to he affected I still believe there was something to do with Henry as the cause of it all
Susan Bedingfield It could have been as simple as their blood type, the rhesus factor.
If you are thesis negative and your baby is r positive, like the father, the first baby is often fine but the others miscarry.
Proberbly syphilis.
I wish it was known back during these times that it wasn't the woman's fault no male heirs were born. It's the men who determine those things. A woman as two XX chromosomes while a man has an XY chromosome to give. The women can only give an X to the child. Whichever one either it be an X or a Y determines the sex. If X a girl, if Y a boy. If only they knew that back then there would be a lot of women not fed to the executioner's block. How tragic is all of this?
The men didn't 'determine' anything. Women have babies & she wasn't doing it. She was broken somehow and couldn't fulfill her wifely duties so he needed a new one. He needed an heir...period! Life behind palace walls could be harsh e.g. Lady Diana who didn't live up to the Queen's expectations - so she was 'sent to the gallows' in a manner of speaking.
@MsBizzyGurl Exactly. They think it's all the woman's fault they're not having boys. For a culture that invented mathematics, astrology, measuring devices they sure are backwards.
Having a political system where a few people within a narrow bloodline possess all the power and most of the wealth restrains scientific and economic progress. It is essentially self-defeating. It wasn't until a new system based on individual freedom and freedom of thought and free speech came along that things started to change.
men were so full of themselves back then, it wouldn't have mattered if they HAD known. Those egotistical nitwits would have blamed the women anyway. Especially ole Henry V111.
@Misbuzzygurl - your comment is incorrect in Islam the belief is only God determines the sex of the child, the sad attitude the men want only boys stems from within their own cultures and not from the Religion...
I believe the problem lay with Henry, always have as every wife has had difficulty in coming to term.
my favorite quote of "Anne Boleyn" in The Tudors, was : My Elizabeth shall be queen, and my blood, would be well spent"
That line was from "Anne of the Thousand Days," not the Tudors mini series.
That came from " Anne of a Thousand Days." However it was true.
My favourite Anne Boleyn quote is “ People may grumble but that’s how it’s going to be “ She stitched that motto on her sleeves. She really didn’t care a t@&s for other people’s opinions. I salute her.
Poor Anne! She was wrongfully villified by a series of very spurious men. I think she was pretty damn fabulous.
May she rest in peace.
I believe she used those stories as part of faking her death. To protect the true Monarchy.
Anne is a tragic figure in English history. I personally believe she was wrongfully accused by the fickle monarch Henry.
Anne created a monster in Henry so she could become his wife, and then had to deal with that monster and his wrath! I do feel for her though- I think history has made her look much worse than she was, though I've read she was ruthless and ambitious.
Romanticizing a wicked woman.
Nina Notzon She literally had little to no choice, her father, uncle and king were calling the shots, and all she had in the end was holding onto her chastity. Not exactly wicked, definitely surviving the best she could in a situation that was not her choice from the day she was born female in those times.
@Diana Chino Interesting take on this very complicated situation. I don't think that Anne back stabbed Mary. Henry simply tired of her sister. My view is that Henry pursued Anne, but she learnt lessons from his relationship with her sister. Henry lusted after (rather than loved) Anne, especially up to the time she finally gave in to him. His feelings then changed, but he needed that male heir at any cost.
Did Anne ever love Henry? I believe she had loved Percy, but I get no impression of romantic love for Henry. And as the marriage went on without living male infants, Anne became increasingly desperate and frightened, realizing how cruel Henry could be. Even until the end she kept hope that she would be sent to a nunnery, but it was not to be.
he wasn't fickle he knew exactly what he wanted and went after it: a boy
Thank you for putting this straight. I was so upset when I read this obvious and disgusting lie in The Other Boylenn Girl that I haven't read Gregory since. It is disgusting that people are still smearing that poor woman's memory and accusing her of incest centuries after her husband murdered her. Many women miscarry - you would think in this day and age we would have stopped, literally, demonising them for it. Apparently not, at least when it comes to selling books. Glad to see the record corrected.
It certainly is disgusting.
The Other Boleyn Girl made my blood pressure high. So many people take that book as fact and then they made it into a movie. I dont see how people dont see that its fiction! 1. P. Gregory totally lays the blame on Anne and excuses Henry. She makes out like her not agreeing to sleep with him would have made him lose all reason and have no other choice but to divorce his wife and leave the church.
2. She makes the sisters enemies. makes it out like Anne being the guardian of Mary's kids was evil intended.
3. The miscarriage stupidity
4. The incest stupidity
5. Then she has Mary at the execution and leaving with Elizabeth! It ends acting like Mary raises her!
6. It also highly suggest that their father left the prison and was never close to Henry again! I dont understand why she changed known facts. Not to mention, isnt it more dramatic that he still worked with Henry?! I have always wondered what Thomas Boleyn thought about the loss of his kids and how much of a relationship he had with Mary afterwards..
Anyways, I will shut up now. Thank you for another great video!
It's compelling fiction but so many people take it as an accurate retelling of history and I even have people citing it as evidence to back up their view when I'm disagreeing with them. Very frustrating on so many levels!
It's like the current silly films about Mary, Queen of Scots and Queen Anne. I cringe when people say that they are learning history from them.
In my opinion, P. Gregory only got right the age and the place. For the rest , it is all bull.
The book, and film also made Mary out to be so pure and saintly - but from what I have read, she wasn’t very bright and was very promiscuous.
@@chainsawkitten3766 Exactly. She had numerous loers ein the court of France and historians know that, but P. Gregory did a fiction novel and used historic names for her characters, that the problem.
I like to take a scientific lens to the trouble of Queen Anne's pregnancies. She had no trouble in conceiving and quickly but had only one living child, Elizabeth, which was her FIRST child, notably....perhaps because Anne had an Rh- blood type. Any other subsequent pregnancies after could have been met with antibodies; if the fetus were Rh+, a miscarriage would be almost certain in Tudor times. Spontaneous abortion because of an Rh- mother typically happens in the second or third trimester of pregnancy. First child healthy, others not. The pieces fit. It's a possibility.
I've also heard that Henry may have had Kells Syndrome. Is that a possible reason for his wives to bear an early child, but then miscarry many others? It doesn't fit exactly for Queen Catherine and Mary, but perhaps it would've been the same for Jane Seymore, had she not died after her first childbirth? These things are hard when we are applying medical science that we have now to certain persons in the long past.
Or perhaps King Henry was rh-, which would explain a lot, as most people are rh+.
Very good educated guess
It would mean Henry's blood type was rh positive and Anne's blood rh negative. Following pregnancies would produce antibodies only if it's an rh positive baby. If a baby she carried with rh negative blood on her following pregnancies the babies wouldn't be affected.
Pamela, I would agree with you on that if it were not for the fact that my grandmother had Rh- blood while my grandfather had O+ blood. Every child they had survived a full term pregnancy but the last one which my grandmother had lost very early. She told me once that she didn't even know she was pregnant with the last one until she miscarried. She had 5 children who all reached adulthood including my mother and lost one in a miscarriage. All 5 children were born at home in the hills of Kentucky.
There is also the fact that she probably got pregnant to soon after Elizabeth’s birth, many fertility and infant doctors agree that it’s best to wait 12-18 months after giving birth to get pregnant again because too little time between pregnancies increases risk of premature birth and miscarriage as the mother’s body needs time to recover from the previous pregnancy
Claire, I have always found it profoundly karmic that Anne miscarried on the day Katherine was buried. I am surprised no contemporary chroniclers noted that, as unpopular as Anne was. I had thought Henry's accident was also the same day, but I believe you stated it happened six days earlier.
There are no coincidences a Buddhist monk once told me. Only cause and effect.
If the fetus was a shapeless form, why would contemporary sources say it was male? Obviously it was formed clearly enough to show it was a male, making it's loss of greater importance than had it been female. And if gender could be determined, it couldn't have been shapeless.
Anne was a controversial figure in her day and had she given birth to a malformed fetus, word would have gotten out almost immediately, not taken half a century before coming to light.
It could possibly be argued that at the time a male heir was strived for. The loss of a potential male heir would carry more weight/sympathy than the loss of a female.
Just playing devils advocate. I can see reasoning on how it was reported at the time.
@@michellemelville8979 That would be my guess. Plus I have two kids and I can tell you that at 15/16 weeks gestation both the male and female genitals can look very male. Especially if she was actually more towards 13/14 weeks. The clitoris is larger and swollen. It can be confused as a penis. So if she miscarried around then, the baby may have looked male in genitalia but not actually be physically male.
I'm American, but I find Tudor history endlessly fascinating. Not to mention the majority of my ancestors were still in Britain & Ireland at that time so I feel it belongs as much to me as anybody else. Despite it being historical fiction I particularly love the Showtime series "The Tudors." The scene when Natalie Dormer as Anne Boleyn miscarries is so horrific. In that moment you feel her absolute anguish, despair, and terror. Her entire position as Queen was conditional on her providing a male heir. In that moment you literally see her child, and her only hope, pass through her hands.
iluvcamaros I absolutely LOVE that show! Of all the movies made from her story I personally think that Natalie Dormer really REALLY did a fantastic job in that role.
I'm distantly related to the Tudor Dynasty. I'm also related to William Penn who founded Pennsylvania. I learnt of that a few years back.
Just about everyone is distantly kin to royalty somewhere which is awesome, interesting, and cool.
A couple months ago I had a chance to go to Hampton Court, one of Henry VIII castles just a little west of London. It's easy to get to, inexpensive to get in and right now the airline prices are very good. I highly recommend it.
True Ashley. I believe Edward III, was considered the grandfather of England. It’s estimated that 85% of British citizens are descended from him.
Even as a teenager, when I first became fascinated by Anne Boleyn and her story, I didn’t believe that this account of the foetus being malformed could be true. There were simply too many people with agendas to take one person’s word for it. As you state, none of the contemporary sources document this happening, and so I feel it has to be taken with a grain of salt. I love this series, Claire. Thank you so much for doing this 💕
But what I don;t understand is, why is it so horrible if the fetus were deformed? We are in modern times...we know this would have had nothing to do with anything anyone did wrong.
@@pamelaboswell9715 to be fair you can't apply a morden perspective to the era, WE know the miscarriages were one of those things because of how far we've come with medicine over the last 100 plus years, then medicine was pretty basic, mainly guess work and poor hygiene. Superstition played a large part in perception as did the Church, with hindsight and morden medicine we have a better understanding of what happened to Anne and the miscarriages.
There's so much bad press about Anne Boleyn it's hard to see the wood from the trees. In those times maternity care was pretty nonexistence so highly possible, as you have said, it was a miscarriage plain and simple.
Hard to see the Forest through the Trees ;)
Having Henry unconscious for hours must have been a terrifying time for Anne pregnant or not. He was her only safety.
Ironically, her "only safety" became a huge threat to her life and throne, along with Cromwell.
Anne B had the disadvantage becoming Henry VIII’s replacement for the much loved Katherine of Aragon. STRESS!
Her first child is a female. STESS!!
Henry begins to look for Anne’s replacement MAJOR STRESS!!!
She didn’t have a chance. This was the perfect storm and ended so tragically for Anne, her daughter, Katherine, Thomas Moore, Wolsey, Anne’s brother, Anne’s father and mother, and basically anyone who got in Henry’s way. What I never understood was why all the effort to break away from the Catholic Church because the Pope won’t grant a divorce only to become head of a church (church of England) that ostracized it’s
members for divorce.
I always laugh at the irony of Elizabeth surviving to become the queen of England.
i did not think catherine of aragon was beloved by the people
All very strange
Well most contemporary sources state she was well loved. Henry thought highly enough of her to appoint her regent during at least one of his absences on the Continent.
A fetus will normally spontaneously abort in the first trimester if there is a major developmental malfunction. This may not be obviously apparent. But with the close intermarriage of the royal houses the genetics problems are more apt to be expressed. It may not have been Anne's problem but Henry's as it was he who seemed to have problems with propagation.
agree!
But that's not the case with the Rh- mother --fetuses are lost in the later trimesters. No matter the reason, it just seems unfair to blame the queens, not like they could help their biology. It wouldn't be fair to blame Henry, but he was such an ass that it wouldn't bother me, lol.
True I had a still born who didnt have a skull. My specialist kept saying it was a one in a billion chance that my baby made it a month. She went on to say there isnt a number to Express how she made it to almost 7 months before her heart stopped. Things like this are extremely rare to last very long.
Women have given birth to children with spinal bifia, dwarfism, austism, and other deformities.
Great video! If Queen Anne were born in the past fifty years, she would just have been a well educated "woman of the time," perhaps a CEO, attorney, or stateswoman. It took two to tango and only one of the two had power, it wasn't her. Her daughter was an amazing woman and it's a shame Anne didn't get to see her grow up and be a queen.
Thank you soooo much for all the wonderful work ..this is like rediscovering history for me😍🌺💖
Another brilliant video!!!!
Btw I'm happy that you've added subjects/descriptions to your daily video titles.....I'd noticed that the 2 January videos which had descriptive titles (rather than just the date) had many more views than the rest. It's a small change but I hope it brings you big dividends. Your channel is awesome & deserves a really big audience. Of course I'm convinced your channel will keep growing because your work is first class.
Thank You.
Love these works BTW, Claire, I just can't get enough!
It's still a sad story about this woman and all other poor souls by this time. Wonderfull channel, i'm glad to found it on youtube - very intresting :) greetings from germany
Thank you so much for your videos! They are all beautifully done and informative.
Thank you Claire , I enjoy your videos . It's like going back in time . Feels like I'm there .
She did love her daughter and had such tragic miscarriages, as did Catherine of Aragon. Very common for that time.
Thank you Claire for putting that to rest once and for all (we can hope).
I think it will keep coming up because of the fact that it is so prevalent in fiction, and with the fame of The Other Boleyn Girl.
Sad to say I think you're right. It is so unfortunate that people continue to damage someone's reputation for the almighty dollar
This is the first time I’ve been to your channel. It won’t be the last. Very enlightening and interesting.
this is really well done! i love this kind of thing with proper research and intelligence.. thanks very much. i often imagine the horrible stress she was put under.. she did it to herself of course by claiming that position.. but.. bloody hell.. how could she have known how horrific it would be for her? how dangerous
I love this type of video thank you. I just found this. I love watching the history of Anne.
Thank you so much for the excellent, critical review of the evidence.....refreshing
I love all of you videos! I feel such a connection with Anne. Thank you for all your knowledge! ❤
Thank you for these entertaining and informative videos.
Obviously midwives etc would be familiar with miscarriage and stillborn very pre-term babies, but is it possible that some witnesses would think a very pre-term foetus was malformed just because it doesn't look like a smaller version of a full term baby?
Elizabeth Frantes yes but midwives, being female wouldn’t have been viewed as knowledgeable whereas as male doctors were the fount of knowledge
Fionna McCormick It would need to be a very young pregnancy to be not fully formed. I don’t mean to be vulgar but you’d need to look through the blood clots and after birth to find a fetus that small. I doubt if they did that in Tudor times.
Barbara 1 at 15 weeks, the fetus would actually look more or less human, but in miniature. The child could probably have fit in a man’s hand.
@@barbara1904 Fascinating. But are you saying that early in gestation, fetuses are fully formed, yet tiny?
Fionna,would stress have played a part in Anne's miscarriage?
I have had 4 miscarriages of the years. I was only ever able to see it in the toilet with my second miscarriage at about 4 weeks along. It did look a little like a tiny mass of tissue, however, that said, I was able to see a basic shape of it. 4 weeks is very early so I was surprised to see a shape. It was definitely a baby. I don't care for the term fetus regardless of the age. To a mother, she is carrying a 'baby' from the moment she knows she is pregnant.
Also from a few comments about women being blamed for not delivering male infants below this comment:
In my family, mostly on my father's side, there were very few boys successfully delivered that lived. My father was the first of 4 boys & 3 girls born (all in America) to my paternal grandparents, (both French Canadian) that lived. There were at least 2 miscarriage before he was born. However, the families of those boys had losses, all of male infants before & after birth. Only 1 of my aunts, my father's sister, lost 3 babies after birth or stillborn. Again, all male infants. One was a set of twins.
As far as I know, at least 2 of my miscarriages were males. They were all 4 to 6 weeks at time of loss. I delivered 2 healthy girls between my losses. One of my girls has 7 children now. 4 boys & 3 girls, just like my grandmother had. Later, my grandmother remarried after my grandfather's passing. She had one more child with him, a boy.
So it does have something to do with the father's chemical make up but with time those things can dwindle away when a female in the family mates with a healthy male that will take over a healthier trait. Such is the case with my elder daughter. My younger daughter has 2 boys.
Extra ordinary
Thank you for clearing up the matter.
I love your videos. Relaxing and educational. Thank you
On a lighter note, thank you for sticking with the Brit spelling!
I’m revisiting,in this time of the dreaded Corona, our own baseborn plague. I have many thoughts about Ann, and her tragic life. I think one of her mistakes was to not make her own friends and influencers, in fact she seems to have made naught but enemies. And in a way, one can see how and why. I’m going to be presenting my thoughts as facts, so as to not be too ponderous.
She was already cast up high by being favoured to go to the French court to be raised. She returns as an attractive, poised, educated and elegant young lady. Not only did she bring French fashions of dress and hair and dance to the middle aged court of Catherine, she had been encouraged to be educated, to debate, with men, to be witty and quick witted. She is at least attracted to, and I believe in at least calf love with Harry Hotspur. Then, as she awaits the news of their betrothal she’s informed that Henry has nixed it.
Her original refusal of Henry’s advances was done with little thought and little finesse. After he had ruined her chance of a love match, he certainly wasn’t going to take her down the same path as her sister. The timing was such she was still grieving for her Hotspur. If at that time she’d had the long game planned out I don’t think she would have shown it by mentioning marriage that early. As in,” Your wife I cannot be...”
Then, as time goes on, she is, as we’d say now, love bombed by Henry and by his sycophants. His actual advisors stood back and thought, “ Here we go again”. So before she’s found her balance, she’s being courted and feted, complimented at every turn. Still very young, and with no one on her side, not even her father or sister, she began to believe it all, and to think if she really wanted, she could have it all. And so, instead of putting people into her debt, instead of having them seek her favour, she was cruel, and heedless. After all, why would she ever need any of these men? In the same way as those few lightly said words about dead men’s shoes were said without thought, so she insulted and belittled those who at least could have warned her in the latter days.
And who instead stood back and thought, let her fall, dull little Jane will be much easier to handle...and more grateful.
As for the “deformed” foetus, I’ve never thought it was,( deformed) but when I thought that was a contemporary opinion, I could see how it might have been said to be. Someone trying to make Henry stop raging may have hinted it as “being for the best”. A basin being carried away with the foetus and clotted blood, looked at hastily by male courtiers, or even shown to Henry. Lots of innocent ways such a thing could have been said to have happened. In addition to the many spiteful ways it could have become said as fact.
However, now I know it was not a contemporary tale, so....
One final, bitter, ironic full circle- Henry originally, before being handed the adultery and witchcraft charges, tried to annul his marriage to Anne by citing that she had been hand-fast and betrothed to Harry of Northumbria(?). Her same Harry Hotspur, that if she hadn’t caught a Monarch’s wandering eye, she would have married, and borne a passel of little ones, and been plump and contented, probably putting on French airs and graces to Queen it over her own little realm, into a happy old age.
Occasionally I am glad there’s not time travel because although I love and am fascinated by Henry the viii, at times there’s a really brief fit of waiting to go back and shove him down the stairs a la Mrs Dudley! Hey, maybe I’ve just solved one of my favourite historical murders!
Well, I’ve had fun, I’ve cheered myself on what was a very blue, weepy day, so thank you Clare! Much appreciated, and to any who might read my convoluted prose, may we all meet in happier times.
Stay well, stay safe. I’m down in Australia so, whilst we await out plague time we’ve been watching and praying for you all, wherever ‘topside’ you might be.
I did not like the version of Anne Boleyn in "The other Bolyen Girl".
I can't stand that book. But, then, maybe I'm strange. I like my historical fiction to be, you know, historical.
@@Katherine_The_Okay How do you know it was not historical? It may have been, and you a scion of "Kat" Carey, Mary Boleyn's daughter rumoredly sired by Henry 8. Kat mothered Lettice Knollys, mother of Robert Devereaux, the Earl of Essex; and of Penelope Devereaux, the "Stella" of Sir Philip Sidney's sonnet sequence "Astrophel and Stella" who had to marry Lord Rich. Dynastic history has been a soap opera's soap opera.
Natalie Portman in that "Boleyn Girl" film played Anne beautifully, especially bringing out her intelligence.
@@Katherine_The_Okay I actually really enjoyed the book, its very interesting, but I do NOT take it as historically accurate. I take it as fiction inspired by historical events.
Thank you for keeping History alive. I love learning more about Ann. I just loved visiting Hampton Court.
I had always wondered about the rumor of her having 6 singers had come from.
Thanks for clearing that up as well.
So interesting but sad - this weekend of Feb 2nd I took a walk near Tewin Hertfordshire through a bridal way and came across the most lovely privately owned house called Queen Hoo - the walk crosses woods and fields. After I got home I looked up the history and found it was a hunting lodge owned by the Boleyn family and Ann visited there to hunt in the woods around the house . Just wondered if you had any other information regarding this above ?
Nicolas Sander had an axe to grind, as you stated Claire, he was a catholic whose sole aim was the restoration of England as a catholic country. One wonders if she realised the ramifications of her miscarriage. The history of England may well have taken different turn had the baby boy survived - it may well have saved her.
But indeed, England would NOT have had its Golden Age which was Elizabeth's reign. Not happy for what happened to Anne, but there is an element of fate here.
Indeed a biased source. But understandable given the scale of Henry's persecution of Catholics, including those who participated in the Pilgrimage of Grace.
Thanks for answering this question!!
Your stream is a new find for me and I am enjoying the content. Also just watched your video on Richard III, being a huge fan of Richard III, I really enjoyed that one. I have read a lot of fiction about the Tudor period so am familiar with some of the people cited in this presentation. As you rightly say many of these sources had their own agenda. I have subscribed and I do intend to watch more! Thank you
Thank you!
If this first "beautiful boy" had lived, I believe Anne would have too. We see later how Henry so "loved" Jane Seymore after the birth of his "only" son, Edward. Elizabeth would have never been queen then, believe she was the best ruler for that time and place.
Renee Parent Jane Seymour didn't live long enough for Henry to get sick of her.
R. Simone I believe Henry may have "put her aside" at some point, but I never can see a beheading happening to a woman who give him that golden son.
@@r.r.1546 I feel the same way!
Renee Parent Henry would not have put her aside it would have been unthinkable to treat the mother of the male heir so terribly she would have been secure in her position. If Catherine of Aragon’s male heir had lived Henry couldn’t have annulled his marriage to her and Anne Boleyn would have had to settle for being a royal mistress instead,same with Anne had her boy lived then Jane would just have been a flirtation instead.
Actually, given the lifespan of Tudor boys (Arthur, Edward, Duke of Richmond...), Anne might have lived *&* Elizabeth been Queen at possibly even *earlier*.
I read a book that said there was a blood disorder in Henry the 8th family that caused the miscarriages suffered by his wives. Is this true?
I just happened on your channel... it's wonderful! I love history. Accurate History! : ' ) My mother was a master genealogist, with genetic markers. My line begins with Eochaid, that leads to Niall of the Nine Hostages, although, we do not have a male in our family that has that specific marker, although my son has not been tested yet. There is a young man in Ireland that does have That RA marker.. Nevertheless, Niall's grandson was Fergus Mor MacEarca, who became the first King of the Dalriata. It is to Fergus that the line leads, through the subsequent line that leads to other Kings, and to The Plantagenets. From my husband's line, The Pomeroy's, we are directly related through Matilda, and her daughter, Gundred of Rhodesia. Thank you for your presentation! I subbed! Looking forward to more! :)
Must read!! Thank you!!!
Wow...you learn something new every day. My thoughts...what happened to those miscarried babies? Were they buried or what? Just wondering as nowadays I have known a few women who have miscarried and buried their little ones, name and all.
I'm also curious.
I'm not entirely sure what would have happened to them.
I have wondered whether "deformed" and "shapeless mass of flesh" were actually meant to be hostile. Sander of course, was no champion of Anne Boleyn and her daughter due to what they stood for and other information he writes about Anne can be proved wrong. However I have thought about how Tudor eyes would understand a foetus of about 3 and a half months gestation? The foetus would have been very small and just how "human" it would have looked like. Tudor knowledge of pregnancy was not like the medical knowledge they have today, so would "deformed" be used to describe a young foetus, not fully developed rather than implying that there was a physical birth defect as you would with a full-term baby. 🤔
They would have seen the products of conception of many miscarried fetuses and would know that they all looked like that.
tremms83 At that age, they are fully formed babies.
@@gullwingstorm857 Sigrid, that is incorrect. It's 3" long, about the size of a plum. The forehead and top of head are bulbous, eyelids are just beginning to form. The brain is underdeveloped, the hemisphere's have not connected yet. The fetus cannot detect stimuli at this gestational age (not until around 26 weeks). They are nowhere near "fully formed".
@@kaseythompson4670 i doubt she was only 3 and a half months along as she would not produce anything that could be pronounced a "man child" or even a stillborn child.
She believed herself to be 15 weeks but, implantation bleeding, which is common at 4-6 weeks and usually mistaken for a period even these days, she would be likely to be around 20 weeks pregnant. It would be a much more likely scenario considering her attendants referred to her baby a "man child" and a "stillbirth". Her baby would be identifiable as a "male" and a "little baby" only if she was beyond the gestation she thought she was at.
@@jinjarogers1711 That's completely possible. I just believe that it's important to report facts about gestational age and milestones considering the vast amount of misinformation and downright lies that has been disseminated by anti-choice groups. I've had discussions with people who insist a fetus at 12 weeks is 6" long and looks like a perfectly formed baby. Whatever stance one takes, the foundation must be based on facts. Propoganda vs. Reality: www.snopes.com/fact-check/12-week-photo/
Wow! Just noticed how many views this video has gotten so far. Well done, Claire!
And your subscribers are growing like crazy as well! 🎉
I've always considered the "shapeless mound of flesh" comment to mean that the baby was miscarried quite prematurely. I hadn't thought of it as so derogatory, but I didn't really research the source of the information. Thank you for your insight into this and other aspects of Anne's life and death. 😊
This was the first conversation we had on The Anne Boleyn Files, Claire. At the time, my opinion was that the foetus might have been mistakenly thought to have been deformed because of the ignorance of foetal development of those in attendance - not because of an actual deformity. I still think it’s a possibility just because royal medical attendants only cared for the royals and would have had less exposure than the village midwife. Especially interesting when researching period medical writings, journals, and diagrams. Love the images of a proper 4 year old practically walking straight from the womb 😉
Phillips Gregory is so anti-Tudor, even if she does occasionally create an interesting story in her twisting and embellishing.
Really do like hearing about Eustace Chapuys writings. I have a soft spot for him for some reason.
I did wonder the same thing in regards to a lack of awareness of the fetal development process. I'd also expect supporters of the royal couple to not make mention of anything possibly untoward.
It was a bloody awful time in history.If she was sleeping around how come she didnt get pregnant?
I think my ggggg uncle Thomas Cromwell had a lot to do with her fall,nasty man
Your ggggg uncle???? How fascinating! I'm related to a servant who served at Houghton Tower nr. Preston, where apparently the loin of beef was knighted by Henry ( sirloin steak) lol. X
By "ggggg" do you mean, 5th-great uncle? After 4.5 centuries, it would seem more, 14th-great uncle.
I’ve thought for a long time that Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn both were RH-. Explains the early successful births and the subsequent miscarriages. It could be that Bessie Blount and Jane Seymour both were RH- and their first children were born healthy. I have also wondered what would have happened if Catherine and Henry’s first child, which was a boy, had lived. I think history says he lived for about a month. Think of how history hinges on the life of one child. Is true even today.
I'm sure it's already known, but you can tell someone news like that as gently as you want, but doesn't mean the stress felt by hearing that news isn't felt greatly. It's very possible she stressed enough to cause it to happen. Then again, given his own track record, it's possible Henry was just as much the problem with his seed not being strong enough.
I am FASCINATED with Queen Anne. I did my Senior paper on her, many years ago.
I didn't do my senior paper on her, simply because we didn't do historical papers, we did exit interviews, but I would have! I've been fascinated with her since i was a child (mid 20s now). My husbands family is directly related to the Tudors. I was so excited to find I had a connection to her, even if it is by marriage :)
@@needsabettername3165 that's really cool. I've been trying to do family geological tree, however most of my relatives have passed so it's a guessing game.
Do you know whether she, like the furniture style she inspired, had cabriole legs?
@@brooklynb2090 That's "genealogical." But learning the "who" of one's ancestors oft leads to "where"--but that's their "geography" ... a superficial layer of geology. Okay, "geological."
The baby buried in St. George's Chapel near Henry VIII, Jane and Charles I has been identified as an infant child of Queen Anne
Susan Orr how has it been identified as a child of Queen Anne?
@@Corbylocperhaps the shape and style of the coffin, which changed over time.
Thank you for getting this all straight love the history
one common reason for this is congenital syphillis. Sometimes the first kid is okay since mom isn't infected yet, but then she miscarries or the child dies in early childhood. There are a lot of arguments that Henry didn't have the disease, but that ignores that the disease was different back then (more virulent) and one can have a partial or full syndrome.
What I find interesting is that Henry had several illegitimate children , of both sexes & healthy. True it is likely that he caught malaria as well as having a jousting injury which became infected on his leg.
No one to my knowledge has ever commented on the giant cod pieces he wore at court, & the effect of "overheating" the testes. - subfertility, poor viability, & a preponderance "female" XX sperm.
Just ordered my first book The fall of Anne Boleyn!!!!
Thank you!
I'm definitely going to order!
This is a very good video. I’m very interested in this as my 13th great grandmother was Ann Boleyn’s half Aunt. Her mother’s half sister. I always heard this myth and wondered if it were true. Thank you for this!
Very interesting. Thank you!
I think it might have been syphilis. Both queens had a healthy first child to a philanderer husband. Suppose the first births made it - the subsequent births affected by the syphilis that nice man gave them? It wasn't uncommon from this time and into the Victorian age.
Henry didn’t have syphilis he would have been treated with mercury and his treatment by his doctors does not mention this, Francis 1 of France did have syphilis and was treated with mercury. Henry probably had osteomyelitis.
Also syphilis would make Henry bat shyte crazy. It is noted that he became more and more unstable. I think it is safe to lay the blame on The King. Although his weight gain is hard to explain if it were syphilis. Puzzling indeed.
The syphilis idea is a Victorian myth and is not based on any evidence. Henry VIII did not display any symptoms of syphilis, and neither did his wives or children, and as Sarah has pointed out in his reply, he was not treated for the disease either. Fortunately, we have records of the treatments he was given, as well as his symptoms, so we know a lot about his health.
The children,Mary and Elizabeth, would also have syphilis as well which causes bone and teeth deformities. It would be pretty obvious. so I don't think this is a viable option
April Moore Victorian age??? Ha Ha Ha! A few centuries out mate!!! 15 hundreds fool!!
The Lady had a miscarriage yes it could well have been deformed and let's not forget our body's do sometimes reject the foetus..
Just bought your book! Cant wait to read it!
Thanks. I always wondered about that
I truly believe she did love king henry!!!
It's so hard. I think at the very least they engaged each others' minds.
She did but to the ability she was able to during the times and how she raised (if that makes sense).
I think that Henry had a congenital condition that caused his male offspring to spontaneously abort or die during or just after birth. Katherine of Aragon gave birth to several male children who all were dead very soon after birth or stillborn. Yes I know that Edward was born to Jane Seymour but he was weak and sickly most of his life then dying at age 16.
Veronica Farlette Edward wasn’t weak and sickly most of his life, he had good health up to about fifteen years of age when he had measles which lowered his immune system and led to what was thought to be TB but is now thought to have been a type of chest infection. All the ambassadors to Henry’s court reported on the good health of Edward saying he was a beautiful child but one shoulder was slightly higher than the other.
@@sarahhardcastle2433 I find the "shoulder" remark to be VERY telling, given the wild stories about Richard III....
@@SafetySpooon yes edward could have had mild scoliosis, I don't know if it can run in families, Richard 111 would have been his great great uncle.
Sarah hardcastle he probably had scoliosis like Richard his 2great uncle.
Stillbirth and miscarriage was very common in this time period and very few reasons for it are sex linked in the child. And, as noted, Edward was healthy. Personally, I lean towards Katherine as having some issue, either acquired or genetic, that made it very difficult for her to carry a child to term, or there was an incompatibility, such as an Rh factor issue. It's obvious that none of them suffered from infertility, so the losses were probably from something going on with his wives or something shared in common (disease). There were diseases which were commonplace then that we don't even know exactly what they were...both Anne and Katherine had contracted the Sweating Sickness.
That poor woman was probably heartbroken.
Was it Chapuys who said "Anne Boleyn had miscarried of her savior?" If only Anne had delivered a healthy son, she would probably have never been executed. Poor Anne. What that monster Henry put her through, and it was HIS fault the entire time as far as the sex of his children. Shame on him!!
Oops Kathrine was his first wife. I think Isabella was Kathrine's mother.
Yes, Isabella of Aragon (and her husband King Ferdinand of Spain, patrons of Columbus) parented Catherine of Aragon.
Well, then, who was to succeed if ER I were removed from the throne? She had no offspring (at least that we know of). Henry VIII was dead; Edward VI was dead; Lady Jane Grey had been executed,;"Bloody" Mary Tudor was dead, leaving ER I as the last Tudor heir. Buckingham had been executed under Henry VIII. The Roman Catholic Howards (dukedom of Norfolk) had royal ties, but ER I executed the 4th Duke. in 1572.
The Stuart's were the likeliest. If Mary Stuart had been put on the throne because Elizabeth died young or was deposed, I doubt she would've lasted long. Her son was the logical heir to Elizabeth. Lady Jane Grey had two sisters, grandchildren of Henry VIII's younger sister, Mary. I don't think either of them would have been accepted. There was one descendant of a sister of Elizabeth of York (Lord Huntington?) who was mentioned early in Elizabeth's reign as a possible candidate, but that went nowhere. Good thing Elizabeth had a relatively long life and circumstances worked out as they did. I'm descended from a member of the Stuart clan, but I've never been all that impressed with the Stuart monarchs. Still, I don't know who would've been acceptable alternatives.
@@GoGreen1977 Just before Henry 8 died in 1547, in his will he specified his line of succession. After Elizabeth's decease with no natural heir, her royal successor was to be her first cousin Frances Brandon and her daughters, but after Queen Jane's execution (one of her sisters being malformed), the second daughter of Princess Mary Rose Tudor, Eleanor Brandon. Then Eleanor's daughter Margaret Clifford (my 11th-great grandmother). But late in the 16th century, Queen Elizabeth's spies told her that Margaret had indiscreetly speculated on the date of QE1's death, which surmise then could be a capital crime. But Elizabeth mercifully just struck Margaret from the line of succession. (How I lost my birthrightful place in such succession at slot number nnnnnnnnnnnnn.nnnnnn. That, and some of her scions moving to America.)
I agree 100% with your views...I do wonder that at 15 weeks gestation how anyone (certainly of that time) could identify the sex of the Feotus as in my experience as a nurse, it can indeed be rather difficult. However it is so sad of poor Anne was so discredited in her short reign.
Absolutely love your blog. Would they have buried this child? Was the child put to the fire? Did Henry know about this or was it kept quiet?
Damn straight, the answer is No! ‘‘Tis slander and nothing more! (GD haters...one jerk made up a baseless story)
There are STILL so many attempts to tell the story falsely. It causes me great anguish and irritation when I get settled into a film or series, only to (inevitably) have the retelling of the dear tragic tale ruined by falsehood after falsehood.
NuthinMuffins Yes! That abomination The Other Boleyn Girl has a lot to answer for!
I wonder if the "sweating sickness" affected (especially) women's ability to carry babies to full term. CoA caught the "Sweating sickness" in 1502 and only had 2 full term pregnancies and goodness knows how many miscarriages. Anne Boleyn came down with the sickness is 1528 and only had one full term pregnancy and 2 (I believe) miscarriages. So yes, she could either have been RH+ but then CoA would have been that as well. There are 5 things the women share in common, 1 both had the sickness and recovered, both had ONE healthy female offspring, they also shared some of the same "spaces" which could have been pretty unhealthy environments for a pregnant woman, several miscarriages (while a miscarriage is nothing new or uncommon then or now - it makes you wonder. And both had the same partner fathering their child. So, it could have been HENRY's "fault" or perhaps the "sweating sickness". Oh and I love these daily short informative stories.!
Medical Doctors are not quite certain as to the exact nature of "the sweats".
I knew someone who had several miscarriages, they all happened at a certain time of year if it made it to a particular temperature (where we lived was not that warm in the summer). She did managed to have three children, all girls. Someone told me that it had to do with a virus that she had.
Possability the sweating sickness is a virus caught by mosquito or tick bite. I have had Ross river fever, from a mosquito bite & I have felt like I've had a sweating sickness. Malaria is another example.
Freddie Hansen help please:-what is CoA? I’m sure when it’s explained I will feel really stoopid lol. Thanks
Bilinda Law-Morley Catherine of Aragon.
One of my favorite things about history is reading and learning about King Henry VIII with his six wives. The lives they had, and for some the early deaths. Thank you so much for posting this video. I have also always wondered why they chose to say that she had had the "deformed fetus", but never did my research. Thank you for all your hard work in this.
I really liked your video and explanation on the case. Anne Boleyn is , to me, a very interesting woman and it's a shame that there isn't much information about her. I wrote a book inspired on her and I just fell in love with her. Such a misunderstood person.
Why do you all seem so horrified at the idea of Queen Anne miscarrying a malformed male fetus? Like no way it never happened. Lies I tell you all lies!!! Lmao
Ladies, I am a big fan of Queen Anne and wish that the fairy tale she strived so long and hard for ended with a beautiful healthy male son and heir and Queen Anne left secure and positively glowing in her triumph. Instead of the opposite and her down fall. How does the saying go when you rise so high there no place left to go but down. Anyway, I sadly believe that there was an issue with the last pregnancy and the fetus no matter how slight it maybe. In this day and age women even with the fantastic prenatal care and testing we have still have babies born early, still born, malformed or sickly. In America thou with early testing and sonograms women can find out and pin point problems within weeks and in the early months and (no judgement being a mother of 4 myself) many decide to terminate then proceed with their pregnancies.
The risk of many problems in a fetus is greater every year after a women turns 30 and the odds of a problem with the fetus are even higher after the age of 35.
Queen Anne did have problems with all the other pregnancies aside from Elizabeth.
Who knows what other factors add into what may have caused her to miscarry and if the last fetus was not only born early but may have been malformed as well. Those brave bad ass ladies lived over 500 years ago with each century having its own insanity for women to take part of anywhere from wearing tight whale bone corsets or stomachmicas to wearing make up with led in it. Women were dabbing belladonna (A TOXIC POSION) into there eyes to give it a sexy bewildered look to them. But like all things women needed to put more and more belladonna into their eyes to achieve the sexy look they were going for only these poor woman were slowly poisoning themselves to death and many ladies did die because it...
So all im saying was there was a good chance the fetus was malformed. Perhaps it was just the DNA line up between Anne and Henry that particular pregnancy. Or maybe it was her environment her diet and stress or a combo of all of those causes. Maybe she just didnt get enough folic acid. Honestly, I think with his first Queen Katherine that she may have been RH-negative (like i am) which causes the mothers body at around 28 weeks or so their bodies start producing anti-bodies which think of the fetus as a foreign invader and tries to fight it off and kill the fetus like our bodies would fight off an infection or illnesses. But the fetus now in an attempt to survive sends out its own anti-bodies to fight off the mothers anti-bodies causing a war inside her and may on set premature labor or full term still births. I know that with each child I carried I had to get a shot of Rhogam at 28 weeks to ensure my baby and I would stop trying to fight one another. I also had to get another rhogam shot after every birth or miscarry (i had lost 2 fetuses one before my first child born full term pregnancy my son and before my third full term pregnancy my second daughter ) and if i had any terminations I also had to get a shot of rhoagam as well so just from knowing that I can say chances are that was the cause of all the miscarriages and still births for alot of women in those times was for that reason. I needed a rhogam shot for all my pregnancies and my mother only needed a rhogam shot after my oldest sister and she had me and my brother without having an issue and did not need a shot of a rhogam at 28 weeks.
And such irony--Elizabeth was arguably one of the greatest monarchs in Euro history. He was so upset about "only" being delivered of a girl, but had he known what a queen she would be, he never would have gone through the changes of producing a male child. A malformed fetus is often the reason for spontaneous abortion; it's nature's way.
I believe the Queen was Rh-. If you Google it, you will see the pattern-- the first child is [almost] always healthy, and subsequent fetuses don't make it because of the auto-immune response. Maybe it was not the ending Henry wanted, but in my eyes, it WAS a truly happy ending after all--look at what Elizabeth became! And I do not think that such a formidable woman could have been borne of anyone but Anne Boleyn. I agree, there are dozens of factors that could have caused the problems. I am almost certain that they were genetic in nature, as the Tudor line were closely related. No prenatal care and no knowledge of germs didn;t help it. And I dont think it speaks to someone's character if they have the misfortune of a miscarriage.If the fetus was sick, then it was for the best, and nature knew this.
It's not that I'm horrified with anyone miscarrying a deformed foetus, it's the fact that it isn't true and it has been used to back up the theory that she did indeed commit incest or that she was involved with witchcraft. Something that has no basis should not be used to back up a theory. In those days a deformed foetus would have been a worry for Anne and the king as it would have been seen as an omen, it would have had meaning. Anyway, the point I'm making is that there wasn't a deformed foetus.
@@anneboleynfiles because you were there. My bad
Honestly, did the king truly have to blacken her name to be rid of her?
No it was to protect himself. To keep all speculation on Anne.
Even Henry Fitzroy died. Aside from the 2 princess. Every male child he fathered died. How many different mothers? I believe that the midevil spin doctors painted poor Anne in that horrible way because the King could never allow let alone admit or i think he couldn't truly even believe that he fathered a malformed fetus. They thought when off spring were born malformed it was because the mother had to have sinned in some way or used spells or invoked spirit's to have been punished with a malformed fetus.
So after that happened it was easy for the council and other factions that felt threatened by Anne or simply just disliked her to gather what ever bull crap evidence (mostly testimony after torture and testimony from people that were jealous and hated Anne and her family like lady Rochford Jane Parker George Boyles wife. So statements after torture and statements from haters were what was presented at Annes hearings. so yea your right the court had to blacken Anne name and Character in order to be rid of Annes. Lol yeah right, Being King its not like he could of been rid of his Queen unless saying she comitted incest and gave birth to a malformed fetus. And slept with 5 men during her marriage.
Oh wait how many queens did he rid himself of when they no longer served his needs??
That's was fun to hear, I love Anne Bolyne she was my favorite wife of Henry the 8th... Thanks for posting!
Nicolas was just a big dumb old school Hater!!! Lol! Liked, shared, subbed!
Very interesting posting, with impeccable research -- a novelty these days.
I can almost understand them saying that Anne lost a deformed baby because to them and even to their doctors at that time, they may not have understood that at 13 weeks a fetus isn't even fully formed and would likely look deformed. so sad, even now Anne cannot rest in peace and actually, she got the final laugh of all because her daughter was the best ruler for England and ruled even more successfully than her dad. drama and scandal still follows them both now.
But nobody did say it at the time. Nobody thought there was anything unusual about the foetus.
Had no idea you were the author of the coloring book I’ve been coloring while listening to you until I went to buy the countdown book
how do you think they portrayed Anne Boleyn in the TV show The Tudors ?
Anne Boleyn was definitely a victim of her husband. So sorry for her and her daughter Elizabeth. This is a very good example of women’s history written and distorted by men.
just found your channel. subscribed and rang the bell.
Thank you for another interesting, thought-provoking, informative video. I have deep sympathy for Anne, and for the many young girls of 'royal blood' forced into loveless royal marriages, who lived in such ignorant times when women were always blamed for "not bearing a male heir", the inability to conceive, enduring the loss of miscarriage(s), the god-awful pain of childbirth, and, after endless hours of labor, and disappointing their husbands with a beautiful baby girl, they ran the risk of hemorrhage or 'childbed fever'. Fairy tales about days of yore? Hmm.... perhaps not.
I was very interested to hear this about Anne Boleyn's pregnacy and consequently her miscarriage that the news was distorted. Having watched the movies and hearing excerpts regarding it was interesting to hear what is known to be the truth. It seems that a lot of politics got in the way eventually she got the Short Straw. I love listening to the news that you give and putting the puzzle pieces together. Thank you
That Line came from Anne of a Thousand Days, a movie with Richard Burton and Genevieve ( I can't spell her last name). It's one of my favorite lines and turned out to be true
I think the stress Henry made Anne go through made her miscarry
She miscarried the last child at about 12 weeks. Would it have been that well developed? Also, would Henry having syphilis (which can cause long periods of infertility) cause defects in the baby?
i can see the ignorant judgements of people in that past and lying on her the way her husband had. Women, we need to stop this behavior.
Anne Boleyn while being a mother was also a ruthless politician who was respected and feared by her peers as such. Her enemies made much of what would be considered normal infant mortality to reduce her influence and ultimately kill her.
I think they may have thought the baby was deformed, but I think it's because they never seen a developing baby.