Mary Boleyn: Mistress of two kings? (Mary Boleyn 2)
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- In this instalment of her series on Mary Boleyn, sister of Queen Anne Boleyn, Claire Ridgway, author of "The Fall of Anne Boleyn: A Countdown", looks at the idea that Mary Boleyn was the mistress of King Francis I and Henry VIII, and that her children were fathered by Henry.
Part 1 is at • Mary Boleyn Facts: Who...
The article on Elizabeth Blount's daughter that Claire mentions can be found at www.theannebol...
Mary Boleyn was a widow with 2 children and, when she married for love, her family cut her off because they couldn't sell her to someone else.
It was actually because her new husband was beneath her status. It would’ve scandalised the family. Check out Claire’s video on Thomas and Elizabeth Boleyn.
My mother loved Tudor history. I wish she had lived long enough to enjoy your channel. She always said, women had such little power, but carried all the guilt, that it is truly very hard to actually know exactly what the women did, and of what they did, how much was what they "wanted" to do, and how much were their actions were forced.
I always find it somewhat humorous that King Henry filed a request for a dispensation to marry Anne because he slept with her sister while still being married to his first wife. Having the affair while married wasn’t the issue but the fact that he wanted to marry the sister of the one he had had the affair with.
well , the king thought it was his God given right , to have mistresses . the motto on his family crest says it all " Dieu et mon droit " , God and MY right " ...
An excellent analysis of Mary Boleyn using the primary sources. Your detective work into who wrote what information and what the writer's biases were makes your conclusions about Mary more believable.
I believe he had some type of sexual relationship/affair with
MB...they portray her as being too... dull ? to keep his interest...
I believe she may have bore him a child... they now say he may have had a blood disorder causing many infant deaths and miscarrages... but MB
was young and healthy...
Thank you! With Mary, I feel that a lot of assumptions have been made and that those are now taken as fact.
Patti Morris I suspect diabetes, too. I also wonder about a thyroid problem. Sometimes they go hand-in-hand.
I want to say poor Mary, but she actually made it out alive. There is a dignity to be found in not being the one, or not being Queen...
BTW, just bought your book for my Kindle and I am so excited to follow along as you make your way through the year!
I think Mary does deserve our pity to some degree. She was used as a pawn, (like all women of the day) by her family. She was banished from court after marrying for love to William Stafford. I think her marriage to Stafford saved her life though.
@@steppy3736 I agree. Despite the machinations of her family, she lived a dignified and happy life (I assume - who can know for sure...).
@@steppy3736 I'll be covering the "pawn" idea in another video. There's no evidence that her family forced her to do anything. They were angry with her in 1534 because she married without Anne's permission. Although she was a widow and widows had more control of their destiny, she was the queen's sister and so would have expected for the king and queen, with her family, to arrange a good match for her.
I do hope you enjoy my book. Thank you!
I also just purchased the book! I’m excited to follow throughout the year as well!
Mary is such a paradox in Henry’s Tudor court - for all her involvement with a man who was often as toxic to those about him as any pox, she survived and even thrived, outlasting many who seemed much less involved with Henry. Eustace Chapuis seems an invaluable source of so much information in your talks - would you consider doing a little mini-series about him as a person in his own right? I’d love to know more about him. Loving these talks Claire - thank you!
I think Mary was the luckiest of the family. To bad we don't know more about her. I was wondering what was a day like at court? What did they do all day? I love these so interesting .
A lady-in-waiting would be busy serving her queen, she'd also be doing sewing, religious observance, accompanying her queen to the chapel, to meals etc. I think she would have been failry busy.
@@anneboleynfiles I love thinking about how these women spent their days. They were probably up before dawn and to bed early or late depending on what was going on. Did she attend balls? That would have been my favorite part
@Patti Morris she only lived for 6 years after the death of her sister. Hardly a long, happy life with her sweetheart.
The Anne Boleyn Files and Tudor Society I’d love a video on the duties of these men and women who are close companions of Kings and Queens.
@@frightbat208 Its a bit confusing to me after seeing the series. I can' t think of the first lady's name who waited on Katherine of Arrogan in the very first eposode, but in the series anyway she was married and had a child by Henry. She was sent away and thenher husband took her back and he had been rewarded by Henry. This sounds almost like what Claire is relating about Mary here. I suppose the creators took their creative liberties.
Love the kitty at 2:01 - does it have a cool Tudor name? Seriously, these videos are really informative. Critical analysis of historical writings. Picking out the facts from writings 500 years old must take a lot of patience & perseverance. Apparently the Tudor era had a lot of Fake News just like today. Consider the source! And you actually take time to answer questions & comments from your viewers. I'm very appreciative of your work.
He's called Oreo, so no! Sorry!
Thank you!
The Anne Boleyn Files and Tudor Society I have a kitty named Oreo, too!
Love your work so much!
My cat is named, Tudor, though! And my dog is called Harry, but I don't think I consciously named him for King Henry. My daily fix, I also love this channel!
Hehe! Claire's cats and dogs make cameo appearances in some of her videos. One of the tuxie cats is named Oreo, which is a popular tuxie name. I'm not sure about the others.
Bradley Warren Did you notice that there was two of them. Kitties, I mean. Look closely and you'll see two jump down one after another
Like my granny always said, " mama's babies, daddy's maybe's".
I've been recently trying to trace my family tree, and it's possible that I'm descended from Mary through Catherine Carey on my mama's side. Not sure yet, but it would definitely be cool, considering my obsession with Tudor history and especially the Boleyn girls. I really never thought anything about being related to them, lol! I figured I was descended from a long line of ordinary folks. The only famous person whom I knew was related to me was my great grandaddy's cousin. She was the first female federal district judge in the US. Which is really cool all by itself.
Claire, thanks for these videos, they're addictive!
My fiancé is related to Mary Boleyn because her son Henry had an affair with a woman Emilia; she became pregnant and had to leave court. Her name is Emilia Bassano Lanier, and though her son Henry (named for his father Henry Carey, son of Mary and ward of Anne Boleyn) isn’t Royal, she married her distant cousin Alfonso Lanier son of Royal musician Nicholas Lanier, his father Henry Carey was Queen Elizabeth I’s first cousin. She was the first female poet in England and her family were royal musicians. Today they are related to Quincy Jones, music producer to Michael Jackson, and a ton of other people. Super interesting history, especially because I’m Polish so my ancestors history was slavery and farming, not Royal courts, influencing Shakespeare, having family ties to royalty or anything of that sort.
@@msi8311 that's really cool, I was watching Useful Charts not long ago and it was the family tree of Berry Gordy, president of Motown Records. He was related to President Jimmy Carter, as well as the Jackson clan. I love genealogy, it's a big puzzle of the human family that's all interconnected. You say you have Polish ancestry, so do I, lol! So we are probably related too! 😁
Eustace Chapuys has provided us with the most reliable source material we've got from the Henrician court. He was literally a fly on the wall, an actual eyewitness to some of the most dramatic events. The reason I think his sources are accurate is because he gives us some unbiased views. For example, although he was against Queen Anne, calling her 'the Concubine', he would sometimes fight her corner, even though he wasn't on her side. For all the inaccuracies in the TV series 'The Tudors', I really thought the actor of Chapuys did a great portrayal of him. There is a brilliant book I've got about Chapuys by Lauren Mackay. Have you read it, Claire?
I think Chapuys, like all people, would allow his anger/resentment for anyone he felt wasn't honoring Catherine of Aragon & Spain. I suspect if he defended Anne, it somehow benefitted KoA and/or Spain.
Yes, I've read Lauren's book and it's excellent. He could be very biased at times but is an excellent source because his dispatches are so regular and accurate.
I wouldn't trust an amb. From Spain as a source
I’m so glad you made these videos about Mary Boleyn. I drives me crazy when historians state as FACT that Henry VIII fathered one or both of Mary’s children when there is no evidence (the same goes for Mary being mistress to the French King). Mary B has such a terrible reputation now thanks to people going by rumours or sources written by men who had their own agenda or weren’t even alive at the time. It also bugs me how they jump on assumptions because of Elizabeth’s behaviour towards certain relatives in her own reign. They seem to forget about her mother’s role, and only focus on her father’s familial relationship to these people; the only absolute fact is they were Elizabeth’s cousins through her mother’s side before they might have been her half-siblings due to her father’s involvement. Also, don’t get me started on certain “historians” (re: historical fiction writers) who never cite their sources but state everything they say as factual anyway. It’s a relief having you here making these videos because I know I can trust what you say because of all the extensive research you do and explanations you give to back it up with.
poor mary , maligned as being a "light woman ". but in the end , she went on , to live as a happily married woman and her children fared well . under elizabeth's rule weren't her children given status..........little wonder , elizabeth probably viewed them as her kinfolk ......great share.......
Only the two children who were reputed to be Henry's bastards were given titles etc. This was probably what cemented the assumption that they were more directly related to Elizabeth.
Elizabeth’s lord chamberlain was Henry Carey, Mary’s son and Elizabeth’s first cousin.
Thank you so much for recording E2. I love the Tudors & I'm learning so much more than i ever thought possible. Almost every episode i find myself saying.....I didn't know that. Will purchase one of your books.
This is where I think Anne was savvy. She SAW all this behavior, the king taking a woman, having his way, then sending her off. She knew that she needed to hold out for marriage, that merely getting pregnant wouldn't be enough to make her queen. She tried to hold the reins in that way, although Henry still had full control of her fate.
There is the theory that it was actually a joint decision to hold off because there was no point in Henry having another illegitimate child. It's an interesting one.
The most fascinating thing for me about Mary is that she survived the drama that was to come. I'm loving all your videos, thank you.
I am loving your daily videos,they are so interesting and informative.I have always enjoyed history but you make it live and I could listen to you all day Thankyou so much and I will look forward to each day with you.
Mary is in my family line so I am happy to find your channel. My mind is awhirl with questions and wondering about these days in history.
Mine, too. It is speculated that Henry VIII fathered the 2 children she gave birth to while she was married her first husband. While Will Carey was called the father of them, contemporaries noted that both children resembled the king, particularly the boy.
@@ladyv5655 And mine, Fox family of Virginia, from Anne West (1655-1708) and Henry Fox (1650-1714) union.
Zi Brown Mary was one of my great grandmothers also
@@ladyv5655 hasn't this video been all about disputing this fact? Did you listen to it at all? Its false facts like this that tarnish history and the people in it.
Yes I think lots of people are, me too.
I love your talks! I first got interested in Tudor history by watching the TV show “The Tudors” (which is by far imo is the most accurate program about the Tudors in Henry VIII’s reign) I’ve exhausted every single book about Anne Boleyn, Henry VIII and all his wives, and Tudor history in general at Barnes & Noble ( over the past 10 years) ( including all of yours [ except “on this day in Tudor History] since I can’t find it). I absolutely love 💕 your talks because even though all my research, I always at least learn something new from you yay 😃! Thank You so much Claire! 👸🏼
One reason for Henry not acknowleding Marys children could be that it was a bit akward to publicly let your wife raise your children by same wifes sister, particularly if you were a king and wanted no doubt about the legitemacy of children with said wife....
Elizabeth may have found her "Boleyn" side to be a comfort when her "Tudor" side was the one she had problems with. Mary, Mary of Scots, her dad. She might have appreciated that her cousins on her mom's side were just loyal subjects and friends.
Amazing insights into the social and family life of the period. You have done your research well and present a balanced view of the ins and outs of court life. People who served the king must have been under stress throughout their service to the king.
I always felt sorry for Mary. Being forced to bed the King, have his children, (wonder how her husband felt?), and being cast aside for your sister, whom he made a Queen. Actually, Mary was actually lucky, she got to keep her head
Was she truly forced though? To be the mistress of the King could only benefit her husband & family financially. Thomas Boleyn made certain his children were well-educated and understood their responsibilities to promoting the family name. Too often Mary is depicted as the least intelligent of the Boleyn siblings; I highly doubt she lacked intelligence. I imagine Mary wasn't so much forced to be Henry VIII's mistress as encouraged to take that opportunity.
I'll be handling the idea that Mary was a pawn and forced in another video, but there is absolutely no evidence that the Boleyn family forced their daughters into their relationships with the kings. It makes a great story for novels and movies, but is not based on history.
@Elizabeth Frantes I think people can be stupid when it comes down to love and lust.
@Patti Morris awful
Henry actually preferred that his mistresses be married. That way he could send them back to their husbands when he grew tired of them. The husbands did not often object because the king would be very generous towards them in exchange for their complacency.
I’m listening to one of your books on audible right now, imagine my happy surprise when I found you talking about the Boleyn’s on RUclips! I’m listening to The Anne Boleyn collection and so far I’m really enjoying it. Thank you!
You are awesome! Laid down on the couch in front of the fire with the cat and listened it really drew me into her life more than any other approach, over many years of being interested in her. As you shifted back and forth I could really feel her struggling at each of her choice points. I think a lot of us respect the way she handled all this intense intrigue by staying in the background, 'knowing her place' and surviving trying to escape without too much suffering with a goal of thriving in a healthy less dramatic way.
I'm a genealogist I love hearing family biographies and how much people fill in the blanks with what they think "should" have happened with no original sources at all.
My mind is full of History...thank you! :)
Fascinating. Looking forward to part 3!
Thank you !!!
I am enjoying your videos and I really like that you are careful to keep to the facts. It is especially difficult to separate fact from fiction when it is often fairly entertaining to speculate but knowing that Mary was a real person and deserving of as much truth as we can know in remembering her is more important that entertainment. I love the blank slate that the lack of information about her provides but those speculations are only for fun and not for sharing. I can't imagine what life was like for a young woman of her status, expectations, and family ambition would have been like during those Tudor times. I was especially delighted to learn of her connection to the current royals. It seems like court life was exciting and a bit dangerous. I didn't care for the film of The Other Boleyn Girl. I read the book and found it entertaining and it sparked an interest in what life must have been like during that time in English history. I enjoy your well thought out, well researched facts better than the fiction. Thanks for sharing your results with us. I look forward to your videos.
Thank you so much for uploading these videos!
I've always been really fascinated with Tudor history and I'm learning so much more through your videos!
I really appreciate your work!
You are amazing I will never tire of you and look forward to all your insights
Mary is a grandmother of mine. It’s great to hear more about her and her life
We are a distant relatives, she was one of my great grandmothers also.
Same with my fiancé, he’s a Lanier.
I might just point out, that 1) filing a dispensation and 2) the quotes you mention, both show that it was most likely more than just sleeping with Mary once. Also, Henry named a ship the "mary boleyn"which is in the navy/military records. Lastly, it wasnt then and it isnt now, considered a small thing for your sister to have slept with your fiance :)
Thanks for the videos!
I thought the ship was [Mary Rose] was named after Queen Mary aka Princess Mary, Henry's sister.
I just went to the Mary Rose website, they say the Mary Rose was probably named for the Virgin Mary.
maryrose.org/the-history-of-the-mary-rose/
Mary Rose was named for Princess Mary Tudor 🌹 aka The Mystic Rose
I think if it was common knowledge that he'd slept with Mary at all, he would have wanted to dot all his i's and cross his t's by getting a dispensation. Silly King - he could have used that excuse later when he wanted to get rid of Anne tho 'oh, yeh I had carnal knowledge with her sister so the marriage never was really any good'. Henry didn't know himself well enough to realize that he'd be sick to death of her in less than 1,000 days or I doubt he would have applied for the dispensation. As to the ship, that was the Mary Rose wasn't it? Named after his favorite sister.
@@steppy3736 A researcher who writes novels stumbled upon her Anne/Mary infatuation (and subsequently controversial perspective) because she was doing battle research in the records and saw a ship named the "Mary Boleyn" ... In her words, she said she thought "for certain that was a mistake, it must have been Anne" ...but the timing was before Anne
If we can make a suggestion on topics, can you make a video explaining what it is to be an earl and a duke during those times and explain what were their duties and why were they important? Thank you.
I remember reading that both Mary s children looked like Henry. Fair, light redheads. 64yr.old Florida girl
When I was young, I was told that although her name was Anne Boleyn, among the local English, she was always known as Nan Bullen. Is there any truth to this?
Sounds like she was known as the concubine
Thank you for 'just talking' about the subject. I so enjoy listening to you. (watching as well)
Thanks very for these videos, your dedication to you subject and your research makes them an interesting watch. I have one question (at the moment) if Catherine Carey was Henry’s daughter would not Elizabeth have kept quiet about it given that she chose not to produce an heir but to remain absolute monarch until her death? She was so astute and during her life she had seen the downfall of many who had slight claims to the throne, such as Lady Jane Grey and also the 2 remaining Brandon sisters. Elizabeth kept them under close scrutiny and did her best, though unsuccessfully, to make sure Katherine did not produce heirs. Elizabeth must also have been aware of her father’s treatment of the Countess of Salisbury. I would have thought that Elizabeth would have continued to stress the family ‘cousin’ relationship even if they were half-sisters as well.
Very interesting and enlightening discussion about Mary Boleyn. I wasn't aware of the apparently many made up stories about her as I never read fiction these days. One thing I always wonder though, is how in the world Henry got Henry Carey to actually marry Mary. Would he have ordered it or did Carey do it as a favor...? I know that people did marry for reasons other than love, probably more often than not in those days, but it's just pretty creepy that they were so amoral. I can't wrap my head around how supposedly religious all these people were, but how easily they murdered each other and how easily they slept around, LOL. Call me naive but it is just bizarre to me. And as to that, how could Anne even consider marrying Henry, even tho he was the king, when her sister had slept with him? Not very fastidious in those days...
Men and women of the day expected to have their marriages arranged. For Mary, it was a good match and it was an ok one for William Carey too as Mary's father was a favoured courtier and gifted diplomat. It sounds awful to us today, but it was unusual for people of their status to be able to marry for love.
This is way out of Tudor history but do the royals of today (not just in England) still have an expectation of marrying for duty of the country or family? If it’s not, when did that die out?
King Henry would have given Henry some really nice gifts to marry Mary. With the potential for even more royal favour if he turned a blind eye.
Very interesting! And Thanks for the daily videos 👍
Mary is my 15th great grandmother. Pretty nifty! So I'm enjoying the history lessons.
Thanks as always for your insight into the past
I have so many questions. Queen Catherine was so very young and she begged the king in such a dramatic way. What was going threw his mind to kill such a young girl. I know she cheated but could he not have spared her? I wish I could be in the mind of some of those characters of that time. Another question was about Mary of scotts death. Did she really open her mouth and move her eyes after beheading? When you study these people, they become a part of you and you try to put yourself in their shoes and what they must have felt or thought about things. So many questions lol
FYI ----By using RUclips Auto Translate, you can read sub titles for this presentation in many languages. The RUclips Video "Auto Translate RUclips Videos into Your Language" shows how to do this
I like these videos on Mary Boleyn. She is indeed a "blank canvas" that many authors have painted various fantasies on, like that she was the "nice sister" to Anne's conniving schemer, that Anne stole Henry VIII from her, then stole the son (Henry Carey) she'd borne him as well. There's no evidence that Mary and King Henry had a "relationship," just that they had sex at least once, and no one knows exactly when, so there's no way to know if it overlapped with the conception of Henry Carey. Also, when Anne, then Queen, took wardship of the boy, it was doing the recently widowed and impoverished Mary a kindness, as Claire points out in another video, not "stealing" him.
I don't share the belief that King Henry was Henry Carey's father at all. It just makes for a more dramatic story, like with Philippa Gregory's historical novel (with emphasis on "novel"). "The Other Boleyn Girl" is full of stuff that is, frankly, ridiculous. A fun read, but it's rather alarming how many people take it as fact.
100% agree with everything you said!
I love your cats just popping in.
Hi Claire. I only discovered your fascinating channel this week and plan to binge watch your Boleyn Files on my next day off. I have been a "fan" of Henry's six wives since I was a child, because my mum was always telling me about them. I actually astounded my first teacher when I was 5 by putting my hand up when she mentioned Henry VIII and saying his wives names in order. I work in Waterstones now and a customer once said to me of Anne Boleyn "When will they stop publishing books about that bloody woman?" I pointed out that she is still one of the most important women in our history. But my favourite wife is her cousin Katherine Howard and I hope that you will talk about her one day. How old was she ? Is the most famous portrait of her (in black) really her because it doesn't look like a young temptress... Did her family encourage her to sleep with Thomas Culpepper in the hope that she would produce a male Howard heir ? I loved both your Mary Boleyn specials by the way.
I sure enjoy your videos and look forward to the next thank you
Very interesting, I am related to Princes Diana through a common grandfather Sir John Spencer. So I’m excited to go look at these new connections for my genealogy!
When I was young the historical novels 'du jour' were by Jean Plaidy and were entertainingly good reads. She presented the lovely Mary Boleyn as blonde, buxom, easy-going and rather easy and had her the mistress of two kings, sure enough. Of course, it was tabloid history and I remember my own history teacher telling me that 'one could not rely upon the facts enjoyable though these books are'. I find real historical information far more riveting and have done for a long time. Enjoyed both the Mary Boleyn postings, Claire, thank you. There is a supposed portrait of Mary Boleyn (it usually gets whipped out on Wikipedia and such) but I believe that is questionable too?
Let's do it! Let's dig 'em up!!
Ha! It would answer some questions!
I know that Anne was still queen when Mary married Stafford. Is it possible that she chose to marry a man who could take her away from Court as she recognized that Anne was on her way out of the King's favor? The only reason she survived was because she wasn't around when Anne's case went to trial. I don't mean to say she didn't have affection for her brother or sister, but could she have seen this second marriage as prudent?
Barbara Roca I believe she was done with court life and was trying to make her own way with a man that truly loved her. At that point Anne’s fall was so fast that I don’t think that anyone knew Henry would go to those lengths to get rid of Anne as his wife, so I don’t think Mary especially would have known that. I think she wanted her own security outside of her family more so then for-seeing that
Thank God for your Tudor passion Claire....it is my 'food' every day...that I feast on...love all the questions & oooohh moments that the videos stir up for me 😀😆
🇭🇲🦘 With such a mystery that Mary Boleyn was and remains, everything you have said (by way of explanation of likelihoods) do make sense. Your insight is most interesting. Thank you Claire 🔔👑👍
I am also both horrified and fascinated with the Sweating sickness that is mentioned in so many accounts of life in England after the appearance of Henry VII.
I really appreciate your informative videos. However, I have a different point of view. If Mary had sexual relations with Henry without marriage, then in my opinion it becomes difficult to defend the doctrine that Anne was not a manipulative and opportunity seeking person (something very common with most humans) and she turned down the King's advances towards her based on moral high grounds and religious reasons...She could have followed Mary's footsteps. But, she was an intelligent and ambitious woman (nothing wrong with that) who unlike her sister turned this opportunity into reality. Also, i do not think she had any carnal relations with her brother, as her brother might have been a gay,.
This was fascinating! I think that if King Henry had indeed fathered Henry Carey, he would have acknowledged him, as he did with Henry Fitzroy. The Boleyn’s were a well-connected family - they came from the noble house of Ormond and Norfolk. If he was the father, she had a good enough station for him to acknowledge the child.
Mary Boleyn was my 12th paternal great grandmother so I found this very interesting.
It seems like it would be pretty easy to see if any of Mary's children were actually fathered by the king by testing the DNA of descendants of the Tudors and of Mary.
None of Henry's children had children. Mary Boleyn had at least 2 children and I think Charles Boleyn had a son.
@@barbaral743 i think in the 1st part she mentioned Princess Diana is a descendant of henry
IMO if Henry had been the father of Mary's son he would have acknowledged him and wouldn't have been able to prevent bragging about it.
Did he do that w/any other of his illigitimate children...surely there were some?
He acknowledged Henry Fitzroy and some historians have argued that he had one acknowledged illegitimate son so there was no reason for him to recognise another, but I think that Henry wouldn't have been able to stop himself from bragging and particularly when he wanted to put the blame on his wives for not giving him sons. "Hey, the problem's not with me, Bessie and Mary gave me sons!". Just my opinion though.
Carol Rondou I agree. He would have used the boy as further proof that his marriage to Catherine of Aragon was against the Lord's will.
@@anneboleynfiles I totally agree, based on the precedent with Bessie Blount, that it seems more likely that the Carey marriage was Mary's reward for her services to Henry, and the affair was over before the children were born. Another thing I thought was, if Henry C. was Henry VIII's child, wouldn't Anne taking him as her ward been much more problematic? The Queen taking the unacknowledged bastard of the King as her legal ward? And with the tremendous, princely fuss that was made over Richmond's birth, and the way that Henry was "in love" with Jane Seymour forever simply because she gave him a son, it doesn't seem consistent with Henry's personality to abandon a mistress who had just barely given him a son to begin intensely courting her sister. A gap of 5-6 years with no babys, however, seems like no big deal.
Interestingly, I read recently that the present royals, William and Harry, are both descended from Mary Boleyn on both the Windsor and the Spencer sides of the family through Mary's marriage to William Carey.
Great video! Thank you ❤
She was one of my great grandmothers
I love your ability to bring all of these people back to life.
As a descendant of Mary Boleyn-Carey, take what I say with a grain of salt!
However, I look to several things that are historical fact to reach the conclusion that Henry VIII did sire her first two children, Catherin and Henry.
1. Elizabeth of York, Henry VIII's mother was a redhead, as was Henry and his daughter Elizabeth I. Catherine and Henry Carey were also redheads. William Carey, their legal father was Henry VIII 3rd cousin. Both are the 3rd great grandsons of Robert 1st Earl of Somerset, who is the eldest son of John of Gaunt (2nd son of King John). Henry VIII decends via Robert II the 1st Duke of Somerset, and William Carey via his brother Edmund, the 2nd Duke of Somerset (after the death of his brother Robert). There are no known redheaded ascendants in his William's lines, greatly reducing the chances of him having redheaded children, and Both are redheads.
2. It was commonly stated at the time that both Catherine and Herny bore a stirking resemblance to Henry.
3. Henry Carey was referred to in writing as the "King's Sone". Henry VIII never denied the rumors, nor did he ever request that the rumors stop.
Evidently, from this, we may presume that Henry VIII did not mind that these rumors circulated through his court, as well as among foreign dignitaries and monarchs, as the rumors made their way to other countries, and to the Pope. Henry VIIIs dalliances were popular discussions in Europe. It was widely believed during their lives, that Henry VIII did sire Henry Carey and his sister Catherine with Mary Boleyn. If Henry objected to these rumors he could have put his foot down and ended them, he didn't.
4. William Carey received 4 grants from Henry VIII. The first after the Field of Gold, when it was believed Henry VIII began his illicit romance with Mary. The second a month before Catherine was born, the third two weeks before Henry was born, and the last years later. The last grant included a title for William, with the instruction that it fall to Henry when William died.
5. Henry VIII saw to it that Henry and Catherine Carey were taken good care of. William received, via Queen Anne, the finest education there was, an impossible tasks if Henry VIII had opposed it. Catherin was always in Henry VIII's good graces too. At 15 she was appointed by Henry VIII to be the handmaiden of his new Queen Anne of Cleves. And when Frances Knollys married Catherine, they were given a home and land by Henry VIII. While Francis was immediately promoted to the Privy Council! This kind of post was usually reserved for family members, usually cousinsn in-laws, and other's close to the King or Queen.
6. Catherine Carey-Knollys' funeral documents are stored in Westminster. Her funeral Documents are the ONLY documents not belonging to a Royal person in Westminster.
Henry Carey's funeral monument is the tallest in Westminster. His monument looks down on every King and Queen of England!
Decorum and Protocol is, and has always been, VERY important.
The King's throne is always elevated above all others. No one sits above the King!
The King looks down on you, you do not look down on the king!
Yet Elizabeth, who saw they were redheads like herself, her father, and his mother; and who also knew of the rumors about Catherine and Henry's parentage, allowed this momentous violation of proper decorum to be built in Westminster.
A Noble's funeral monument looking down on the Kings and Queens of England!!! A noblewoman's funeral document stored with the Kings and Queens of England's!!!
This looks like Elizabeth is giving credence to the rumors surrounding Catherin and Henry's parentage.
AND not only are they entombed in Westminster, but in the first aps on opposite sides above the transept of the Abbey itself! A line drawn from Catherine to Henry's tombs forms a second transept on the cross of Westminster!!!
Can anyone really imagine that no one took notice of these violations of decorum?
Nobles were elevated to equal status with and over Kings and Queens of England!
Did this really go unnoticed?
There is no written record in which someone objected to this elevation of Henry and Catherine, why not? It was wrong. Nobles are not treated like Royals, not then and not today.
Yet no one seems to have objected.
But let us remember who everyone already thought was their father.
They were both widely seen as untitled Princess and Prince of England, a son and daughter of Henry VIII and Mary Boleyn-Carey
Is it really an accident that Elizabeth had them put into those two aps? I seriously doubt it.
Imagery was an important element of Elizabeth's monarchy, you see it everywhere.
She understood the power imagery carried. Elizabeth knew what she was doing here, she understood the image she was creating in giving Catherin and Henry the end that she did.
It is my opinion that Elizabeth believed the rumors of Catherine and Henry's parentage and considered them siblings. Like everyone else, she saw her father's face in their faces framed under those Tudor-Red locks of hair.
It is said that when Catherine died Elizabeth became seriously ill and it was feared she would die too. This was more than a friendship. Many women of the court and of the Privy died during Elizabeth's reign, Elizabeth was never affected like she was when Catherine died.
If Elizabeth considered them her brother and sister, it would explain why they were given such incredible advantage over all others who served Elizabeth's court, both in life and in death.
I know they were cousins but when you look at the portraits of Cathrine Carey and Elizabeth they look strikingly alike so much so you could mistake one for the other
Cousins can look very similar.
So informative every time
I haaaated THE TUDORS showtime version of Mary lol. I am more of THE OTHER BOLEYN GIRL even if it is pretty inaccurate. Mary is so interesting and I find those with the least information about them the most interesting to research
I really don't think that Mary's son was Henry's or Henry would probably have done the same for him (gave him titles and land and money to keep a major household) as he gave to Bessie Blount's son by him.
it is just so easy to keep listening to this scholar
I carried out some genealogy a couple of years ago, and found that I may be decended from Mary Boleyn via the Knollys family, so this is very interesting. This would depend on my great grandmother, whose surname was orginally Speed, being decended from John Speed of Southampton. John Speed 1 (there were four of them!) married Philadelphia Knollys, who could trace her family back to Catherine Carey. It all seems a bit unreal ...
Actually it was John Speed 2nd ...
Be interesting to have a talk on Henry VIII' s relationship with Francis I. Were they among history's "frenemies"?
Fascinating
Hey Claire! I'd love to make a suggestion for a video if that's okay 😊 I'm not sure if you've talked about this yet or not (I haven't seen it anywhere on your channel so i'm assuming you haven't) but i'd love to hear about Anne Boleyn's mother.
Unfortunately there's really not much info out there about her 😕 I'd really love to know what happened to her after Anne's death, if she played a role in Elizabeth's life and if they were close and had a relationship when Anne was still alive and after. I've been really interested in the Tudor period for years now so I know that this period in time isn't known for its happiness but knowing that Elizabeth had her grandma in her life basically people that were close to her mother so she had that connection would really warm my heart. I don't remember where I heard this from and I don't know if it's true or not but I heard that Elizabeth helped her mother's family when she was queen and actually had a close friend who was a Boleyn, don't take my word for it but if it's true that would really be amazing wouldn't it! 😊
I love suggestions so thank you. I did a video on Thomas and Elizabeth and you can view that at ruclips.net/video/fvgbE1FaMYw/видео.html
We just don't know the details of Mary's later life, just that she came into her inheritance shortly before her death in July 1543. I've never found anything to suggest that she saw Elizabeth.
Yes, Elizabeth had a number of Boleyn relatives in her household both before she became queen and after. Family ties were very important to her. She was very close to Catherine Carey, Mary's daughter. Catherine served her as her Chief Lady of the Bedchamber.
Really excellent video and analysis! Just one note of caution: just because one part of the letter was not correct and the profound bias of the author doesn't mean the other statements should be dismissed out of hand - there may have been some truth in the rumour that Mary had a sexual relationship with Francis, although unlikely.
My husband actually asks if you have a new video when I ask him if there’s anything he wants to watch. No idea how much he pays attention or retains but there you go. 😊
I guess I don’t see any reason to think Mary Boleyn didn’t have a relationship with Francis I. There would be no reason to have record of it if it was just an affair, especially if there were no children born. Of course, I don’t have a personal objection either way. It doesn’t offend me if she did consent. I understand that it would have been used against her sister by those who already had objections but I don’t let them influence my opinions anyway. My husband doesn’t think she did. lol
What about the striking resemblance between Lettice Knollys and Elizabeth I? Could this not be due to her being Henry VIII'S granddaughter?
Well it could be, but they were related anyway as Lettice's mother was Elizabeth's cousin.
I find this fascinating. It was known that King Henry 8 took a mistress when the Queen was pregnant so it could have been possible he did the same when Bessie Blount was out of action. But how would it be for William Carey to take on "spoiled goods?" If Mary Boleyn slept with the king first, would that have meant she lost her virginity to the king? In normal senses this would effectively "ruin" a lady. I find it interesting how the mindset around women and the control of women has changed through the years.
I think a lot if not all of these women were forced into these relationships with Henry VIII. Maybe they believe he would harm their families or themselves if they didn't cooperate. It is estimated that he killed 57,000 people during his reign. He was ruthless.
Loving your work. Amazed by how little evidence really exists. Are all the documentaries based on theories? David Starkey for example.
Why don't the filmmakers just make documentaries and real life movies as to how life really was. That in itself is so interesting. Even if it isn't juicy and full of drama it still is interesting to see details of life. Like you say, the standards of life at the time, the influences, the people trying to bring them down, even life living in a castle all that is just as interesting without adding all the made up crap. I feel looking at the way society was for them, things expected of woman, how they where treated. That is a movie I want to see. To be like a fly on the wall, watching their lives unfold and their destinies. I love your video's!!!
I am loving this channel and am glad I subbed. Can you recommend any music of the period that I could download on iTunes? I also have a love for music of all sorts.
Look for composers Thomas Tallis and William Byrd.
Thank you!
Love your vlog so informative
I noticed you didn’t touch upon how similar Catherine Carey’s daughters (Lettice and Elizabeth specifically) looked to Elizabeth I, especially considering the red hair they shared with Elizabeth I was considered a Tudor trait. What are your thoughts on that?
Anne would have had to have a red hair gene in order for Elizabeth to have her bright copper hair, so odds are 50 50 Mary had one too, and William Carey was Henry VIII's cousin. We're talking about people who's mothers were sisters and fathers were cousins. I dont think it's weird at all they look so much alike. Also, it was VERY fashionable to mimic Elizabeth's looks as much as possible during her reign. People hid their natural hair with red wigs, painted their faces to be as pale as her, plucked their hairline to mimic her high forehead...its also entirely possible the painter was instructed to exaggerate any resemblance to their royal cousin as much as possible.
They still make redheads to this day. My fiancé is a redhead and distant relative of Mary Boleyn, her son Henry Carey who had an affair with Emilia Bassano Lanier, the first published female poet in England and likely an influence of Shakespeare.
Thanks so much for this video! I think Mary had an ongoing relationship with Henry VIII given the dispensation requested for her sister's marriage to Henry, and the ship named for her. Her children were more than likely her husband's since they were not acknowledged by the King, and he may have married her off at the end of his time with her. I also think that given Francis I's promiscuity, Mary may have been may well have had a few "me too" events at the French court, and her father decided to get her our of there before her chances at life were ruined. We know how attractive and charismatic Anne and George both were, and so little is known of Mary's personality. It's not hard to imagine Mary as very physically charming but without the strength of character to demand the respect Anne got. She may have said yes to both kings because she had to, not because she really wanted to be a royal mistress. And Francis may not even have thought of her as a mistress, but as an occasional convenience. Men did do that. Some still do.
I think the ship to which you refer was named for Henry's younger sister, Mary, his favourite sibling. 🤔
@@h.calvert3165 You must be right that would make more sense.
@@mariahunter9882
The poor mistresses of kings usually weren't honoured in such ways. They got fine apartments, furs, hangings, hounds, jewels, sleeves - - - & of course, they had the king's ear. But they were still, technically speaking, 'fallen women' & they wouldn't get prestigious public honours. But it IS confusing, isn't it, when every other woman at court was called Catherine, Elizabeth, or Mary? Fun stuff, & certainly very interesting! 😉
HENRY Carey - not William, Jr? Another question that will never be answered... Love this series, thanks!
It was traditional for children to be named after the king and queen.
Hi Claire still loving these videos.....keep going 😁...love Cheryl
Mary Boleyn had a lucky escape.
Hi Claire, can you do a video on the sister of king Henry the VIII whom married much older King in Europe. She was 14years old and he was 50 years old. Mysterious death of the King in Europe and Henry's sister married again for love to a noble man at Henry's court.
This is Mary Tudor, correct? I would also enjoy a video about her. Thank you!
I wonder if DNA tests with possible cousins might solve some of the mysteries. Did the debated kids have offspring to keep their lines active to today?
Yes, they each had large families and there are lots and lots of their descendants alive today.
I agree that, if Henry Carey had been Henry's son, every one at court must knew it. I don't think that Henry had any further relationship with Mary after she was married to Carey. And after Carey died there wasn't any obstacle for Henry to have a knowledge Carey's son as his own. It was not like Henry to have ignore the fact that he had another male child to show off, beside Fitzroy. He destroy many lives perusing his male heir. He even though to name Henry Fitzroy is heir. He couldn't rest until he got Edward. So why he had to behave different with Mary's boy? Just because he wasn't his.
If her children were Henry's, he had many reasons not to ever admit it. He acknowledge the child with Elizabeth Blount, but she was unwed at the time. To admit paternity would be to admit cuckolding of courtier William Cary. To admit cuckolding would be to admit carnal relations with the woman he hoped to be his future wife, which as the difficulty in confirming his own marriage was would be regarded as semi-incestuous and further scandalize his relationship with Anne. His children would have regarded the possibility as detrimental to their father's memory and by extension themselves, so would not push it. And by King James' reign it wouldn't really matter, but no-one would be alive to suss concrete evidence
Would Henry V111 want a cast off mistress of the King of France? That doesn’t seem to be right knowing what we know about Henry and his ego.
Thank you for another great video. I have always thought it unlikely for a king like Henry VIII to have a longer sexual relationship with a woman at his court without it being known by the surrounding unlikely. Kings and Queens. At that time had no privatelife and was hardly ever alone.
There was a reported event that that Seymore and his wife cut up Elizabeth s dress. Has it occurred to anyone that this is abuse,?
Do you have a link where I could buy your books?
Hi Rachel, where are you based? They're all on Amazon (all of their sites) if you look up Claire Ridgway. Thank you!
After her marriage and banishment after marrying Will 'Stafford she is known to have moved for a time to his family home at chebsey in staffordshire and then possibly in later years to Rochford Hall the former home of her Sister in Law Lady Rochford though the Rochford Hall is only a suggestion by an author Not sure if theres any documentary proof regarding this. But the Chebsey is but dont know how long for
I like to campare Henry VIII and the Tudors to his swedish contemporary swedish King Gustav Vasa and his family the Vasa dynasty. Both kings where rather ruthless men.Gustav Vasa lived 1496-1560 and was king 1523- 1560. Gustav Vasas oldest son and successor Erik XIV was one of Elizabeth I suitors. Two of Gustav Vasas younger children visited Elizabeths court Johan Duke of Finland in 1559? and Cecilia in 1565-1566. Cecilia gave birth to her oldest son a few days after her arrival. He was named Edward Fortunatus after Elisabeths dead brother Edvard VI. Elizabeth was his goodmother.When she left Cecilia left one of her ladies in waiting in England. Helena Snakenborg who stayed at Elisabeths court and later became the third wife of William Parr. Elisabeths step uncle.
Gees !!! My head is spinning with all these 👑 ROYAL 👑 FOLKS 👑 extra curricular💎👡👒 activities 🔷️ 🟥 💍 !!! Greatly appreciate your videos ¤ so thorough and painstaking ☆🍃 think i ll go back to sleep and digest your great groovy files and factors later when my mind is decluttered ( like that closet littered with Skeletons ) □♡☆ LOVE is everything but we have to admit that this romance infatuaton thing is NOT WITHOUT consequences ♤♡◇♧ !!! absolutely addicted to your tutorials ♥️🎯♥️ thank you ♥️ so much ♥️ gonna smash that bell and or belly button 🎯♥️🎆 ♥️
Great video, very informative.
Thank you!
Did her kids grow up at court? and I’m guessing Mary Boleyn didn’t raise her kids
Hi Claire, thank you for your videos! I was thinking, if many at the court knew Mary Boleyn had slept with the king the odds are that it was something longer than a one night stand? Thanks again, take care.
I’m kind of skipping around on your videos so forgive me if you’ve addressed this, but do you think that Anne Boleyn has been wrongly vilified in historical fiction, Hollywood films, etc.? I have had very limited knowledge of her life...all I knew was that Mary was “good” and Anne was “bad”. Your videos are really opening my eyes!!
Check out her videos ‘was Anne a homewrecker’. She also has another video on The Other Boleyn Girl.
I don’t think we need historical records to understand that rarely is someone ever simply good or bad, and if they are, it’s likely someone gave them that narrative for that someone’s own purposes.