80% versus 95% Efficiency Furnaces - Which One Should I Choose?
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- If you are shopping for a gas powered furnace, your HVAC contractor may be giving you quotes for an 80% furnace and a 95% or higher efficiency furnace. The efficiency is the measure of how much natural gas is ultimately converted into heat. To answer the question of whether you should purchase an 80% efficiency furnace or a 95% plus efficiency furnace we will look at a few factors: 1) natural gas prices, 2) the cost difference between 80% and 95% efficiency furnaces, and 3) other considerations.
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This video would be a lot more useful if you mentioned up front that you are talking about Southern California, which almost never gets cold enough to need a heater.
I live in Northern California, in Oakland. The winters are still mild and rarely get down to 32 degrees fahrenheit, however I just pulled my PG&E 12 month natural gas usage. We use ~$50/month for gas cooking + gas water heater with a household size of 9 or 10 people in our 5 bed/3 bath, so anything over that is for gas heating. 7 out of 12 months we use gas heating and this extra costs = $1207 - ($50 x 7) = $857 annual cost to heat our house. Moving from our still working 38 y/o 80% furnace to 95% will save 15%, or $129 per year in savings (not quite, our 1966 house is leaky and not well insulated just like all other homes of similar age). Here in the Bay Area a high eff furnace install is $2k more than a similar 80% furnace install (yes, the Bay Area can be a ripoff). $2000/$129 = 15.5 years to break even in cost savings. My general rule is that if I can spend more money but also break even in 7 years or less than it's worth doing. Obviously the money is far better spent to tighten up our old house and replace our 80% with another 80% but 2-stage and variable blower fan.
It is the same everywhere in the world, not only in SoCal.
As an HVAC service technician I agree with you 100% a good 80% gas furnace is the way to go.
As another HVAC service technician I agree with you 100%
I'm eventually gonna replace my 80% with another 80%.
I rather spend 12-15K sealing and over insulating the house and save 70-99% heating and cooler then replacing the unit for 12-15K and only save 25% with 90+% units. Thanks for the picture tutorial that help.
Exactly what I’m doing man. Have a 80% gas furnace and a single stage AC. Have a very old brick home. Plan is to invest that $ to insulated all the exterior walls and floor
@@joseochoa7043 I save over 90% on my summer and winter bill . I have closet to 4ft of insulation and seal almost every single opening crack and mod my HVAC to reduce almost 30% energy.
Just another data point - we we in the SF Bay area and purchased our home in 2013. It had a Coleman Evcon DES 80 (model #2895E766) installed in 1984, so 37 y/o now. Over the past 8 years I've been hoping the furnace would break down so I could get a 2-stage furnace so our house would keep more even temps by running on low, unfortunately it keeps working. I did have to replace the HSI and later the ancient RobertShaw ignition control board failed so I replaced with a modern version that replaces many manufacturers. I did this DIY so the cost was negligible. I also put a camera into the heat exchanger to check the condition and keep CO detectors in every room and even hallway in the house to mitigate the risk of a 37 y/o heat exchanger beginning to pass CO. I'm still hoping the furnace breaks though.
A two-stage system is hot really considered high efficiency since you stated you live in the SF bay. You would probably still be getting an 80% two-stage system. It is an incredible jump price wise to a $96%-98% High efficency system in comparison. And unfortunately, mathmatically, the high-efficiency systems do not really save you that much money once you figure your initial investment and let us say you had a two-state 80% installed, your home would spend 90%+ of the time in the first state of head or cooling, which is about 65% of the full power of 100%. If you have a variable speed system installed that is 80% and two stage, you will have an amazing setup. I would definitely recommend a really good filtration system that took 4"-5" filters that were large and cleaned the air well and did not need to change them very often. Many different brands have an offering of that. Be specific though, don't buy one of those crazy expensive electrostatic systems or UV lighting. Many of the big filters create static on their own and a Merv8, 11 and 13 will work very well for a well-designed system. I looked up your existing system and you would be surprised how efficient your system for the age. You actually have a four-speed fan adjustable and depending on the BTU's, you might be in great shape. Remember to change your filter and in that generation of system, I would not use a filter higher than a Merv8 personally. Have a great day!!
Simple. Straight forward. Great advice.
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate the encouragement for us to make even more videos.
Dude you're absolutely 100% right the first 80% furnace in my parents home lasted for 43 years the second one which was an 80%. It lasted 19 years after that we were sold on the idea a high efficiency furnace would be the way to go. On the first high efficiency furnace that my parents bought broke down not even 2 years after it was installed it needed parts. So the gas man said that there was a crack in the exchange a hairline crack which was never shown. Now it's just me and my mother we have another furnace put in high efficiency 90%, nothing but problems from the very beginning the name of the furnace is called a Broan and by far has been the worst furnace we have ever had the condensation drips on the inside of the furnace and it's starting to rot out not to mention it's broken down numerous times. I'm going to go back to an original 80% non condensing furnace far more reliable and less parts to go wrong. But you're absolutely right the 80% non condensing is the way to go for the average poor person. Oh yeah another pet peeve with the new furnaces they say the more efficient and they blow cold when shutting down the old ones burned hot heat all the way to the end of its cycle.
That is a good story to share. Most of the 90% plus efficiency furnaces are nothing more than gimmicks. More complicated to run, more expensive to fix. Furnaces have been around for more than 100 years. It is always best to go with tried and tested technology. Many of the newer and fancier products are designed for contractors and suppliers to charge more money, which is not in the best interest of the customer.
By the way, the Broan system that you purchased was made by Maytag. Maytag is not known as a quality product. Broan makes very good exhaust fans but for the HVAC products, they are just using their brand and selling another company's products. If you want a good quality and reliable system for a reasonable price, I would choose Goodman all day long.
Also remember, you can get a 80% furnace that has a two stage gas valve and a variable speed blower motor. You will generally need a new thermostat to control the two stages but they are not expensive. Don’t let people scare you off from ECM VS motors because they are better in every way. Run your VS fan constantly on low and the home temperature will be smooth and not starting and stopping. I agree high efficiency is not that much more expensive but unless you buy a top end quality brand with a decent 10+ year warranty than stick with something cheaper. You still can have that fine medium and you will be shocked by ho an 80% with two stage and VS blower will work. You did not mention AC, but the same rules apply.
nat gas getting phased out in CA. pretty soon all will be heat pump tech in climates with mild winters
$30? Haha! I’m paying $400 in chicago winter
Seriously!! Ours is 10 times that.
DOESNt anyone else heat in NYS, not living in California….argh.
Yes, very true on the 95%+ furnaces. Natural gas is not all that expensive and the parts cost doesn't yield the operation savings nor does the higher maintenance cost of them.
Heat pumps are an idea to consider however, the greenhouse gas savings really only apply to where the unit is located or installed. Greenhouse gases are going to still exist either way, at the home location with a gas furnace or at the many power plants with heat pumps that generate the electricity to run a heat pump. No one seems to explain the emissions that come from power plants and they don't explain how the added demand for power, as we go toward electric vehicles and other electric powered appliances etc., will increase emissions produced there.
Why are the new furnaces requiring PVC air intakes to come from the roof vs. inside the attic ? Some roofs are not feasible to cut a hole into.
PVC are required for 90% plus efficiency furnaces because there is moisture in the exhaust. A metal flute will get corroded very quickly. And yes, for many older homes it is not feasible or cost effective to change out the exhaust pipes to PVC.
Natural gas has gone through the roof since this post. IT won't matter if you have a 98% furnace, we are all screwed now
@@dairconditioning6030 Oh dear Lord, do you realize how long a metal flue would take to corrode and cause issues. My folks have a furnace from 1977 to 2022 without issue. PVC is what you have to worry about and what about this high-efficiency condensate we must deal with through a neutralizer. PVC has a shortage just like everything else, so soon we will be seeing the next generation of new crap coming out stating it is the best and it will have negative items also. And the difference between a properly running 80% 2-stage Unit versus a 95% Unit as far as savings and Maintenace changes are so nominal, it would take 50 years in some cases to make u the difference. The unit won't even be functional at that time and probably replaced twice by then. I hope we aren't using either of the fuel sources in 50 years and we have much better setups, but we do what we can with what we have now to be the best possible. But High-efficiency units are not that everyone things it is, especially, if your home is not high efficiency or setup for it. Think about it. High efficiency windows, wall insulation, attic insulation, leaky house as far as air transfer, etc etc. Just food for thought.
@@Balticblue93 Yes and the question would be why has it gone up? Gas is so abundent, has been for decades. I believe its all about rounding up the sheep and forcing them to deal with high heating and cooling bills to make the heat pump idea fly.
I do HVAC. The price difference between 80% and high efficient 95% is $400 and difference between 80% and ultra high efficient 98.5% is $8-900 but that also has variable speed ecm blower motor which saves electricity as well. Then on top of that, going from a 80% to high efficient will almost always get you a $400 rebate from your city. Also the constant heating and cooling of your chimney causes it to deteriorate over time and causes restrictions causing the furnace to turn off and a pricey chimney repair, or if the hot water heater is not high efficient the CO from furnace travels back through your hot water heater vent which causes headaches, stomach aches, dizziness or death, and it’s odorless so you better hope you have CO detectors and good batteries. In my opinion high efficient is worth the price, it just depends on the company you deal with to install it. The price difference should not be much more than the rebate.
You should buy an old used furnace.
For a hi efficiency furnace to work as well as old low efficiency furnaces, yiu need two. Two is less efficient than one low efficiency furnace so don’t fall for the scam.
I used to dry wet boots on my vent in about one hour. Now I have high efficiency furnace it takes three days to dry my boots and the house is cold and damp. Never trust the future, or ideas conceived after 9/11