Excellent video and explanation - answered questions I’ve had for years. Thank you for all your time to produce and edit this video, and even to draw the high efficiency one. 😊
In Canada the sale of furnaces on the left have been banned for a long time now. I just installed a 80k 96% Dual stage fully variable speed furnace. It's amazing how small they have got over the years. Its only 35 inches high and can be mounted vertical or horizontal. It's important to note that while you can DIY install a modern furnace. There are important safety precaution to consider. You MUST remember to prime your condensate trap. If not, exhaust gases can get into your home via the drain port. Also, it's highly recommended to adjust your gas manifold pressure for both stages. If you live above, 2000ft this is a MUST. Improper manifold adjustment can significantly decrease the life span of your furnace.
Yes, for the record I don't recommend any DIY furnace installation. All those points are 100% accurate. Unfortunately I often see those corners cut but licensed HVAC companies
I've come across offhand comments about the lack of durability in 90%+ furnaces due to their complexity. I was concerned about that when I bought my current house, as it already had (in 2009) a 90%+ furnace, and I was afraid it would soon fail. 24 years later, it's still going strong, and will turn 40 in the spring. I've briefly considered going back to an 80% furnace because of the up-front cost of a new 90%+ unit if/when my current one finally dies, but have decided the up-front cost is worth it for the long-term savings.
@@martik778 I keep waiting for something to go wrong, but so far, nothing has. Air filters are 4" thick and expensive ($30, once a year). The criticism has been that "pulse" furnaces are noisy, but it's in the basement, and I don't live there, so a little noise just lets me know that it's working.
@@martik778mine is 29 years old now the 90% and the fan runs nonstop. Its my fault i didnt do yearly maintaince. It looks like mine may need to be replace. They are good. If you maintain it.
6:53 If any argues that leaving the inlet line open to pull in from inside the home don’t use them as an installer. They clearly have zero idea of what there’re doing. Alway pull the air from outdoors and exhaust outdoors to keep indoor pressure near equal. If you pull air from inside the home and exhausted outdoors, you’re literally introducing a negative pressure pulling cool air through cracks in your home, thus offsetting your efficiency.
Really appreciate the effort and time taken to upload these videos. Although my HVACR program hasn’t began to focus on the heating aspect in any detail so far these videos are giving me a great head start.
I have an 90% HE. its 29 years old. The serviceman who came to see why it isnt blowing air seem hesitant to repair. They keep pushing me to buy their furnace and offer 10 warranty on a new one but they are gonna use my old box. They gonna give me a new fan, new board and a new thermostat for $4500 not including yearly maintain svc. If a parts needing replace they dont want to touch it, damn.
My HVAC is pumped up into my washing machine drain so I can hear it tinkle and know if it's clogged, and we freeze REALLY hard so this keeps her from plugging up-50% of the plastic tube is above ground and warm.
My prior home had a 96% furnace and the drain line would freeze multiple times per winter - so I'd arrive home to a wet floor in the laundry. A giant PITA. Much happier with the 80% furnace in the garage of my new home. They're bombproof, reliable, easy to service, and cheap to repair or replace. Simply wear a sweater and lower your thermostat if you want to reduce your gas consumption.
I'm in central NC and only spend about $500 on heating gas between Dec- March (mostly last 2 weeks of Dec thru 1st week of March) at which point we shut the furnace off completely. 10 % savings vs the 80% AFE model would be minimal for me. At best I might save $50.00 year on a 90% efficiency model ---- It's neglible in my case so I'll probably go cheapest route with the lennox Merit economy. At least your video helped calculate and refine my thought process.
80% works well as long as the home is not tightly sealed. If it's going in a tight house or sealed attic then consider the other. Also consider a dual fuel heat pump. Heat pump is more efficient higher ambient than even the gas in many places. Then use the gas on the colder days or when you need faster heat. They work well together Be sure to get a heat load calculation. One of the biggest issues is oversized furnaces and I oversized AC. Who ever installed the furnace, have them clock the gas meter for input BTU. Sometimes the offices have to be changed. Also have a combustion analysis performed. They should give you a print out of the conditions.
heres the thing most hvac companies will not tell you about high efficiency furnaces. What you "save" on your monthly gas bill goes straight out the window when it comes time to service or even replace. 90% have a lifespan of around 10-15 years where as 80 % last 20+ years High efficiency furnaces tend to start having problems not long after the warranty runs out on the equipment installed. They have a secondary heat exchanger and are equipped with more safety switches and sensors, that can and will lead to more service calls. The upfront cost is more expensive based on equipment cost and labor/material. If you go from an 80-90% you have to install an entirely new pvc exhaust system as opposed to adapting to the existing metal one. The install could take as much as an extra day depending on how difficult it could be to find a way to run the flue based on how your house is set up. I would advise towards investing in a 2 stage 80+% furnace. In short, it wont burn as hot or intensely on cooler days and the "extra" cost is dollars more per month, not hundreds.
If a 90% furnace is having that short of a life span it was not installed correctly. The #1 issue I find with 90% furnaces time and time again is improperly installed. The only reason they are not lasting is because the companies are not installing them correctly including airflow. Meanwhile other companies installing them properly with proper airflow and static readings have them lasting over 20 years. Single stage 90% are simple to work on and affordable parts just like the 80. 2 stage is much more expensive. No reason to have a 2 stage 80. The real problem is modulating furnaces, those parts are expensive and it's more difficult to diagnose. A 2 stage or modulating furnace is not any more efficient. A 2 stage vs single stage 80 is the same efficiency. Most furnaces are oversized, so companies like to install the 2 stages instead of doing a heat load calculation and installing the proper sized equipment. ACCA manual J, S D and T Please the installation manual and customers would be comfortable and systems would last longer.
@@love2hvac its not the installation of a 90% furnace, they straight up dont last as long period. I just replaced a high efficiency boiler installed absolutely perfectly by the previous crew and 10 years later there was a hole in the heat exchanger the size of my thumb. Whether its a furnace, boiler or condenser, the high efficiency ones dont even come close to total lifespan of standard counter parts
The problem with a two stage furnace is the cost of draft inducer motor which needs two speeds. My draft inducer motor lasts about seven years & the part is $600 & with instillation it is $1000. Lennox parts are super expensive I would by a Goodman. Unless your house is super insulated just go with single stage.
A 2 speed motor doesn't cost that much more than a single speed for manufacturing. The problem is the manufacture marking things up, the supply house marking things up and then the company marking things up. Private quiet companies are buying up all the HVAC companies and they are requesting Every penny they can out of the market. A lot of these companies are raising prices so high that it makes a new unit look cheaper so they can sell more units and increase profits. I know of several large companies that trains primarily in sales and sales tactics.
True, Yet most 80% furnaces are not installed correctly. The best exchanger should never fail yet they frequently from improper operation, setup and install. It is rare to run a combustion analysis on an 80% furnace and be good with a new customer. Every 80% furnace has im the instruction manual about clicking the meter, yet only a few people actually do. Flue pipes are often installed incorrectly. If I could only get installers to actually read and follow the instructions manuals, systems would operate better and for much longer.
Very positive presentation on the high efficiency gas furnace. However, you did not cover the cost premium for the higher efficiency furnace including the cost of the PVC intake and exhaust. I would guess the payback on the more efficient unit vs. gas and electric savings is out several years. Also, more complexity in the furnace likely means more parts to break down and higher costs to repair.
How much more is the cost for installing the PVC? A single stage 90 will have the same parts as a single stage 80, except the 90 will have a sealed combustion box and the inducer wheel will be plastic and a secondary heat exchanger. Same for 2 stage vs 2 stage. When you get to modulating furnaces the parts are much more expensive and more difficult to diagnose but a modulating furnace does not make the system more efficient. The price difference between a single stage 80 and a single stage 90+ is very close. In many parts of the country, they are not allowing the sale and install of and 80% and regulation is on its way to end the sale of all 80% as the government will move to 90+ and heat pumps. We can learn about it and adapt or be left behind.
@@love2hvac Sure but we get only the positive part of the debate. When I asked for a price on a basic 80% vs. 95% unit, I was told that the premium for the higher efficiency unit was $3,000. My NG budget is $70 per month including hot water. If my heating cost is $50 per month or $600 per year and I save 20% over the 80% unit, my savings for NG is $120 per year. I will save additional on electricity but ECM's are available on 80% units so the electric saving is minimal, I think. Assuming a total savings is $200 per year, the payback is 15 years assuming equal life and equal repair costs. Several HVAC techs have told me that repair costs for 95%+ units is significantly higher and more frequent. The government claims the higher efficiency will produce $80 billion in savings over 10 years for NG purchases but don't mention the $ billions to replace the furnaces. Many of my neighbors had heat pumps and NG furnaces for extra cold days installed in their new homes several years ago. Almost all have replaced the heat pumps with AC units and kept the NG furnaces due to the maintenance costs of the heat pumps. I own a home in the NE with NG furnace and a home in the S with a heat pump. The heat pump went for 12 years and cost $6,300 to replace but the 20 year old NG furnace is still running well.
What is crazy is a company charging an additional $3k for a condensing furnace 😳🤯 the equipment cost difference is about $200 plus PVC and 2hrs additional labor installing. As for the techs that say there are more problems with condensing raises concern. Are they specifying between a modulating furnace that is very expensive and cost more for part vs a single or 2 stage. Excluding modulating, it's the same gas valve, offices, burners control board, ignitor and flame sensor.. I find most companies that have issues with condensing equipment are not installed correctly. I get paid to go out and solve these issues for companies. What that means is I just read the installation manual to them and make sure they follow it. There are units here that are over 20 years old only requiring typical preventative maintenance. One of the things that are driving repair cots up is the ECM . Otor you mentioned that even the 80% has. A PSC motor company cost was around $100 but an ECM can be $800-1300. ECM is also a government mandate. As far as pay back, it's often not seen for a while (or ever with that over priced 3k difference) If we really want to discuss payback, why not repair your existing furnace? Even if it needs a new heat exchanger your looking at about $1- 1.5k to replace. An old furnace can be repaired for a long time compared to a new one if we are looking at payback. When the goveent looks at file savings they are looking at it as a whole, collectively. Having a 5 gallon flush toilet vs a 1.6 gallons flush will not pay for itself in waterbill savings, but collectively saves a considerable amount of water. Either way in many parts of the country 80% AFUE furnaces are not allowed and soon it will be most of the country. Heat pumps are also being pushed by the government for better, worse or indifferent. I solve problems and I also teach. Part of teaching is technology and preparing people. Everywhere you go there are people that romanticize about the good ole days and how everything was better before. But if I taught automotive and talked about how bad fuel injection and computers are and how great carburators and point system where, I would not be helping anyone. By talking about "how great" an 80% furnace is is how "evil and bad" a condensing furnace is, helps nobody. There needs to be positivity so techs are not afraid of them and can actually service and install them correctly. It needs to be taught so customers don't get screwed with an importer installation and the tech just blaming technology as bad to hide their own lack of knowledge and understanding. Condensing furnaces have been around since 1980. That's over 40 years so even that's hardly new technology. I also teach heat pumps, electric heat and hydronics. Everything about HVAC today is technology but people also have the choose of heating with a wood burning stove and firewood. I also solve problems for them as well as they have issues people don't know how to diagnose when installed in a modern home. People get so upset at this video about condensing furnaces. They also get mad at heat pump videos. I have no say in what is being pushed by the government or what is being invented by manufactures. Yet people want to complained to me instead learning from a free video. Notice I am not selling anything or made any money promoting any product. I get it, a lot of people are afraid of change, a lot of people hate technology, a lot of people are angry. But is it so wrong to have a video that's positive? Is it so wrong to want techs to not be afraid of technology they will be encountering? Should I just make videos talking about how great the good old days were and how everything about everything was better back then? Maybe I could connect to an Amish community and I could talk about how bad electricity and vehicles are.
Ty, thanks both for the presentation and for your attention to questions from comments. I want to share my experience on having a new 96% efficiency Ameristar 100k btu furnace. I did the install myself and delayed putting in the condensate drain so I had it running into a bucket. It’s remarkable how much condensate is generated by this furnace! We have a moderate heating load in Seattle but had a cold snap a week ago. 6 gallons of condensate in 24 hours. I’m now considering where I want that water deposited outside as I’m located on a hillside. Not a question just an observation.
@@love2hvacI have a hole in my slab that my AC drains into, is there any reason i cant let a 90% drain there? It’s below the frost line since it’s in a basement. Also, I have a fairly new 80% Goodman furnace, it was here when i bought the house 2 years ago. I spent a chunk of money air sealing and better insulating my house, I really would much rather have 90% and two stage. Any idea how i can do this without wasting a nearly brand new 80% Goodman?
@@mark33545 Hi Mark, The hole in the slab, it would depend on where that goes. Often they will go to a sump pump that is pumped out somewhere. If that's the case it would need an acid neutralizer in the drain so it doesn't eat away the pump. The same would go for city drains. If the drain continues under the frost line in a type of French drain system, then it would be fine. I have seen those drains not be deep enough once it's outside and freezes. As for the new furnace, it will be a significant cost that you will likely not see the ROI. It would depend on how well sealed the home is. You can speak to an energy auditor or someone in home sealing home performance that can run a blower door test to find how well sealed your home is. If it's really tight, a condensing furnace with a sealed combustion may be necessary. An 80% furnace to be combustion air for the furnace (and water heater if it's gass too) In some cases I have seen people pipe an outside vent to the furnace combustion area. You would have to check your local codes to see if that is allowed, but speaking with someone who does home performance would be even better. You can't seal the other vents if the furnace either so it's still not a sealed combustion but it helps control some of the outside air. Hopefully that helps
@@love2hvac Thank you! that is very helpful. To be honest i have no idea where the hole in the slab goes, i assumed it just aborbs into the ground/gravel under the slab. RE: the 90%, i figured i would never see an ROI. TBH, The biggest feature I want is 2 stage. I hate that my 80% turns on full blast, make the house very hot very fast and then is cool for the next hour until it runs again. Ideally i would have the ability to add a stage to my 80%, perhaps they make a retrofit kit that adds a pressure sensor, 2 stage inducer motor and 2 stage gas valve? probably at that point it would make sense to just get a new unit though. :/
It sounds like your furnace is grossly oversized. Unfortunately most of them are. We are finding furnaces across the country 1.5 to 3 times bigger than what the house needs. This leads to uncomfortable homes. If you can find a home performance company, get them to do a blower door test with an ACCA manual J heat load calculation. It says manual j is usually a computer program such as "Kwik Model" to find the size. For a 2 stage furnace, it would be cheaper to replace the furnace. You can also look at rebate programs. Sometimes there is money for upgrading to a 95% furnace, a heat pump or a combination of the 2.
I was going to change our 1958 Lennox furnace for a new energy efficient one, but over the years as new fees and taxes were added to our gas bill, to the point that it was pointless, I will stick with my trusty old friend with all it's mechanical components! I still have the stand by pilot light, and belt driven blower with hammock filter!
Please Get a low level CO monitor for each room. NOT an alarm but a low level monitor. I have a video about CO and the difference between low level monitor and an alarm.
So if I read this right, you want to stick to an old inefficient furnace because taxes and fees were added to your gas bill? you will still be paying those taxes and fees no matter what gas furnace you have, but those fees and taxes will be LESS with a new furnace because you will be using LESS gas! I replaced my 80% Lennox Conservator G11-e 110,000 furnace that I brought home used from work in 2003, it was about 35 years old when I recently replaced it with a new Goodman 96% 80,000 btu, so right off the bat it's 16% more efficient, probably more because the old Lennox took all it's combustion air from the basement which pulls in cold air around every little crack and gap, and it had a 5" flu going outside that was open to the sky, when the wind shifted a certain way cold air would be pushed DOWN the flu into the room. The new furnace, I installed it myself with all the returns and ducts- has been working perfectly, it was zero degrees outside this morning 73 degrees is what I have the thermostat set for, the 80,000 btu's is plenty to heat the house, the 110,000 lost at least 20% plus the losses of the open flu and the combustion air coming from the room- so it's max output was no more than 85,000 btu. The new 96% 80,000 puts out about 77,500 btu
I have a bad experience with the constant sensor problems on high efficiency furnace. My 80% efficient furnace works with no maintenance needed. The 95% one needed at least one $100 service call every season, burning all gas savings.
@@HobbyOrganist Just make sure you have alloy steel pipe heat exchangers in the furnace you choose. It is the stamped metal exchangers that rust through.
Mine is a single pipe system. It uses the vented crawl space for combustion air. Main concern where I live is radon so the furnace creates convection down there.
I dont buy the radon bs, I ordered several of those First Alert radon kits, i put them in the basement and so on, the mfr's web site had maps of the USA, and on the map was my town of 1700 people, and lo and behold, clear to me what an amazing coincidence, MY house had the highest amount of any other in town= 16.4 LOL! like I'm going to believe that amazing coincidence! So I tried another round of the tests, this time I set one right INSIDE the dry sump pump pit in the basement, and I put one on my desk UPSTAIRS, remember- they claim radon is heavier than air and settles to the lowest location, well, the basement sump pump pit is not only the lowest location it's direct access to the ground not concreted over like the rest of the basement floor is. I got the result back and the one that was on my desk upstairs had a MUCH higher amount than the one sitting INSIDE the sump pit in the basement LOL!!!! REALLY??? stop with this scam already! Of course the results listed a few "approved" remediation contractors all very happy to give me a call and fleece me for a few grand! I know the former owner's son, they lived here from 1941 into the early 80s, he was a little boy when his folks moved into this house, he is now almost 90 years old. His mom passed away in the local nursing home in her mid 80s.
Ty -- Your video is exactly what I was looking for! Thank You SO MUCH! I've been in my own head scratching web researching dilemma for several days simply due to the rust holes in the 4" exhaust flue pipe made of galvanized metal from the furnace running about 15' to and through a concrete/brick wall for exhausting outside the house. I have revised my shopping list for flue parts about three times! I'm in TN, my Brother is in MD. We have been on the phone for hours beating this subject to death! It all boiled down to viewing your video! I thought if I replaced all the flue pipes and elbows with PVC I would no longer have rust from condensation. I entertained the idea of Type B flue with the inner aluminum or stainless steel to reduce the chance of rust. I had settled on using PVC but I don't think I should. My furnace is right around 2 years old. It is an American Standard with attaching Air Conditioning. It has a condensate pump which apparently works only during air conditioning season. So long story short, my fairly new furnace is the 80% efficient which as you very well differentiate in your video to a more efficient 90% which I think my Brother may have. His exhaust flue is PVC and reduced down to about 3 inches, the photos he sent me look great. I don't believe I should use PVC connecting to the exhaust of the furnace simply due to the 20% wasted going to the outside. I tend to think the heat leaving the furnace would be too much, would love your thoughts! I think I'm changing my furnace shopping list back to 4 inch galvanized flue pipe and watch for rust and change it out again in a couple of years. Keep in mind I'm in Tennessee and NO ONE pays attention to Laws or CODE! If it can't be fixed with Duct Tape or J-B Weld...it just "ain't broke." I'm too old for all this fun, I love my home and property but I want to do things correctly, preferably only once and live through a few more Birthdays! AGAIN, Thank You! Excellent Video! Tom
It should be vented using 26 gauge galvanized metal pipe and fittings, or preferably B-vent pipe and fittings. If you use B-vent the corrosion will not be quite as bad as the double wall design of B-vent helps not only to keep it fairly cool to touch but also keep the heat in the vent preventing the flue gases from condensing and rusting the pipe out, which is what you are experiencing
same could be said for carbarated engines. At one point the 80% furnace was modern and people said the same about it, before it was the standing pilot and their at the time modern controls, then before that was the cast iron heaters that replaced the simple and reliable wood burning stoves. Technology and change comes if people likes it or not. The biggest issue with the 90% furnaces is improper installation, improper airflow and improper setup. Once techs learn the systems and read the fabulous manuals they become quite simple and reliable.
My dad had a furnace in this house for over forty-two years and they said it had a hairline crack in it! And they never did show it! Since then on the third furnace them high-efficiency furnaces only last like 10 years or less! Next time I'm putting back in 80% and you don't have to worry about a damn water pump condensation! Hell I might even put in a wood burner!
We just got a 90%+ installed in our finished basement. Unfortunately, Code here allows intake from inside the house, so the builders installed the retired furnace that way. The new furnace was also installed with the intake pipe left inside the house in a U shape. I'm guessing they are doing this because there is a deck outside and the flue pipe is under the deck and no other way for the intake to go other than be sucking in the exhaust.
Most do it because they just don't understand why. Some don't want the extra work of installing the pipe. Some are concerned about extreme conditions, but a tee and a manual cap/plug/or valve solves that. The u shape inside is so nothing falls into the burner section. The air intake is usually near the flue exhaust without an issue. I do have concerns about the flue exiting under a deck. It raises a red flag and a lot of questions.
You can do an intake inside as the air is pre heated which is actually more efficient. In Canada it makes more sense than pulling cold air from outside as well no possibilities of ice up or snow drifts. You still need to exit the house which needs to be done on the side so you don't have any obstructions
I have an 80% with an EVAP coil on top of it. I have never had a/c, what purpose has the coil and do I need it if I am replacing my furnace with another 80%?
Thanks so much, I do have a Trane X90 80,000BTU single stage and my house is a high ceiling and colonial style 2500sqf, one of my rooms upstairs has low heat, do you think 2 stage furnace will be good for me
You seem to prefer the high efficiency (HE) furnace in your video. It gives the impression that you save money in the long term. The HE costs significantly more to install, but the idea is you save in fuel bills long term. Not really though. The HE furnaces are materially more complex mechanically and electronically. With many more parts to fail, long term, the repairs are more numerous and expensive. The modest savings in gas bills is quickly eaten up by the maintenance costs. The real beneficiary is the gas company which gets significant tax credits when they can claim your HE furnace purchase as part of their 'energy savings' program.
Let's start with "many more parts to fail". Let's compare a single stage 80% to a single stage 90%+ They both have combination gas valve, manifold, spuds, inshot burners, rollout switches, primary limits, vacuum pressure switches, IFC, blower motor, housing and wheel that are identical components in the same manufacture. They both have an induced combustion blower but the 90% pluss has the housing made of composite plastic. They both have a heat exchanger but the 90%+ has a secondary heat exchanger made of stainless steel. The 90%+ has in addition a metal combustion box and a plastic drain. 90%+ is 30% more expensive than an 80%. The pay back time if any will depend on the run time and gas cost. Now If we talk about 2 stage , those parts are more complicated and expensive. But if we compare a 80% 2 stage to a 90%+ 2 stage it is just as listed above. The complex and difficult units are modulating. They are much more expensive, much more technology, much more expensive. People seem to label all 90%+ with modulating. Next we have regulations. In many parts of the country 90%+ is mandated and it is a matter of time before it's mandated everywhere. It's being pushed right now. Already pushed out is other efficiency standards that also affect the 80% such as mandated ECM motors. Before universal PSC motors cost $60-80 now ECM motors cost $900 and more. ECM motors do not work well with improper ductwork. People with new 80% furnaces are complaining about this just like 90%+ The biggest issue is lack of skilled training in the skilled trade. I find the majority of 80% and 90%+ furnaces are not installed correctly, not set up correctly, running on improper ductwork, improperly sized. I find techs and installers do not follow the installation instructions. They do not even know how to clock the gas meter, change orifices. Some companies don't even have combustion analyzers and certainly don't know how to use them. So .any companies are not checking static pressure a big cause of heat exchanger failure and blower failure. So many of the companies are so eager to sell a new unit they are not performing heat load calculations Manual J, manual S for proper selection, manual D for proper duct design, or mannual t for how to blow the air. We can't expect to just sell boxes designed and regulated differently the same way there where 40 years ago. It's like having mechanics that prefer carbonators trying to work on fuel injection system. They both work but the complex one is what we have and when it's done right it works. Meanwhile hestpumps are in the move. To me it's technology. Technology is moving forward if we like it or fight it. Its much easier when we learn about it.
@@love2hvac I couldn't agree more. The value derived from HE is variable and also dependent on the uneven knowledge of the installer. With all the moving parts mentioned in this thread, it is worth considering the simpler solution to heat your home. This is really my only point. 80% percent efficiency with a good warranty and quality parts can service most homeowner's needs for decades. Regards.
80% furnaces last much longer, if installed properly. 90% furnaces are prone to more failures and are expensive to fix, especially if it's the Lennox brand.
@@love2hvac I have wood burning stove and the heat it puts out, let’s just say you can feel the heat in your bones. In the event of a power outage, it’s nice to know I can still have heat in my house. But it is a pain in the ass having to re-load it every few hours or keep a eye on it. I’m re-doing my duct work at the moment. I have a Mr. Cool 80% gas furnace. Do you think it’s smart to invest into a 90% or higher condensing unit? I know someone mentioned the parts can be more pricey if not installed correctly. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
@@joseochoa7043 Any furnace install and maintained will operate properly and for a long time. 90% furnaces are pretty simple and just as dependable. The problem is they are often installed incorrectly. The modulating 90% furnaces have several layers of complexity and the modulating furnace parts are very expensive. I think a lot of people confuse modulating condensing furnaces with standard condensing furnaces. For example my 80% and 90% furnaces use the same gas valve. How we a modulating 90% uses a very expensive valve. All that aside, if you have an 80% furnace there is absolutely no reason to change it. Make sure you have LOW LEVEL CO monitors not detectors but low level monitors. Make sure the furnace has a combustion anylaysis done yearly. When the time comes to replace it then you can change at that time.
@@love2hvac Appreciate the feedback man. I’m going to see how this furnace does in the winter with the new duct work. Do you know who makes Mr. Cool? I couldn’t find anything, trying to check if it’s still under warranty? Is there furnace that is a two stage or modulating that is reliable with a good warranty you recommend?
Installation is extremely important. See if a company can do a blower door test to find the home leak rate and then do a heat load calculation off that number. That way you can get the correct size for comfort and longevity. Most furnaces (and Ac) in the US are oversized.
So with HE is its outdated we just dump it and go with the new??? Is servicing out of the question? I have a 90% HE. it will not blow air but the svcman does not want to work on it. Its gonna cost me less to repair then to buy their new furnace. They are filling me with BS. is there a real company i can call for real answers who dont push me to buy their furnace??? I just want mine repair
Many companies pay their techs more to sell than to fix. Many companies have lots of sales training and very little technical training. There are a lot of really great companies and service techs out there. Generally the company that spends the most money on advertising, billboards, radio, ect are the most expensive. You can't trust reviews anymore either. If they have a lot of reviews, it's likely they paid a lot of money to get them. Look for smaller to midsized companies. Be weary of "free" service call or the free with repair service calls. Many companies pay their techs more to sell than to fix. Many companies have lots of sales training and very little technical training. There are a lot of really great companies and service techs out there. Generally the company that spends the most money on advertising, billboards, radio, ect are the most expensive. You can't trust reviews anymore either. If they have a lot of reviews, it's likely they paid a lot of money to get them. Be weary of free service calls, or diagnostics fee waved with repair. (And the $29.99 rune up) If a company askes how old your unit is before they even come out, immediately cancel! Look for smaller to midsized companies. Ask for a company that uses a combustion analyzer. Ask if they have taken a combustion class. Get yourself a low level carbon monoxide monitor. Not an alarm but a low level monitor to protect yourself from CO.
I have 80% efficiency 120000 BTU furnace which is 27 years old. This is Midwest so what are the precautions I should do in case of keeping my self prepared for any potential failure of furnace in winter ??!!
#1 have LOW LEVEL CO MONITORS Alarms will not sound off until the levels are dangerously high, CO monitors will warn you ahead of time. #2 have the system serviced and maintained. Combustion analysis goes a long way. #3 have a space heater in hand for emergency use. Can be used to keep one room warm to survive the night. Optional to have some spare parts such as flame sensor, hot surface ignitor, inducer fan assembly, negative pressure switch are most common and easily replaced. It is very highly likely your furnace is oversized, most are. The biggest recommendation is to have blower door testing and home sealing. Air sealing is actually more important than insulation. If your home is sealed well it will hold the heat overnight even if the heater goes out. This also plays a part when you replace your furnace. Get a proper ACCA manual J (heat load for sizing) ACCA manual S for proper system selection, ACCA manual D (duct design) Then you can down size your current unit AND be more comfortable with a healthier home and structure. When you replace, look at going duel fuel. You can use a heat pump and have a gas furnace as a back up.
The 80% It's not a forced draft, it's an induced draft. This means it pulls a draft through the heat exchanger but still relies on natural convection for the flue pipe. The motor and fan is not large enough to pressurize the flue pipe, nor is the B vent rated for pressurization. Category 1 furnace You will have to check the particular furnace manufacture instructions and local codes to see what the limitations are for vertical runs as they very.
I did a remodel recently. To maximize living space, I put the furnace in the attic. HVAC folks told me I could only do 80% efficiency up there. I still have a drain pan though... maybe that's for the AC coils? Could I have gone 90%?
A lot of people are scared of the 90% because they don't understand them or they deal with issues from bad installations. I can't think of a scenario where a 90 would not work. It is a matter of time before 80% furnaces are phased out. I understand needing more space but the attic is the worst possible location for HVAC equipment. Sorter life, less efficient and harder to service.
@@love2hvac Absolutely agree on the attic! my workplace had installed 3 units in the attic, and 2 on the freaking ROOF, filters in all of them had to be changed weekly (wood shop) and in the cold months the attic got so sold the condensation drains would freeze up, what a headache! To make it worse, one had a flue/intake combined PVC that had a 90 degree bend, and condensation froze there, furnace guy told me just cut the intake part out so it gets it's air from the attic directly separately. In the winter the units struggled to provide heat when the units and ducts were all in a space approaching ZERO degrees, in the summer it would be 130 degrees and the a/c couldn't keep up. The 2 on the roof, on a sloped metal roof, took a 20' extension ladder to get up there, change out the 4 filters each, in the winter there was snow and ICE up there, just STUPID locations to put something like this that you have ti service and change filters on too.
1st unconditioned spaces are never good for HVAC equipment or effecency. 2nd If installers actually read the installation manuals so many problems would be avoided. They have provisions and kits to prevent freezes Quote Lennox: "When the furnace is installed in an unconditioned space, consider provisions required to prevent freezing of condensate drain system." Also " Con- densate drain line should be routed within the condi- tioned space to avoid freezing of condensate and blockage of drain line. If this is not possible, a heat cable kit may be used on the condensate trap and line. Heating cable kit is available from Lennox in various lengths; 6 ft. (1.8m) − kit no. 26K68; 24 ft. (7.3m) − kit no. 26K69; and 50 ft. (15.2m) − kit no. 26K70." Even the flue has considerations " NOTE − During extremely cold temperatures, below approximately 20°F (6.7°C), units with long runs of vent pipe through unconditioned space, even when insulated, may form ice in the exhaust termination that prevents the unit from operating properly. Longer run times of at least 5 minutes will alleviate most icing problems. Also, a heating cable may be installed on exhaust piping and termination to prevent freeze−ups. Heating cable installation kit is avail- able from Lennox. See Condensate Piping section for part numbers."
I have a 95% furnace in my home. I really wish I had my old 80% furnace back. These newer 95% furnaces are just a PITA. The 80% furnace heats much better, last much longer with many less issues. I want to remove the 95% furnace and replace it with another 80% furnace. Many of my neighbors feel the same way as I do about these newer furnaces. We just don't like them. I live in the Midwest so I really use my furnace. Not impressed with this newer unit at all.
The issue is unfortunately most people don't install them correctly. 2nd problem is the modulating 90 that is my h more complex than a single 90 3rd you have companies training techs to sell instead of repair. 4th In a good part of the country is not allowed to sell 80% 4th It's also a matter of time before you can't get a gas furnace and the government forces heat pumps on everyone
Hi, I was hoping you could give me some advice. My parents had a new Amana furnace 6 roller (model AMES801205DX installed. Unfortunately they continued to have problems with it. The seller admitted they installed too big of a furnace for their house and replaced it with a Goodman 3 roller (model AMES800604BXAA). They did not receive any refund for the price difference. My dad has dementia and my mom has Parkinson. I think the company took advantage of them, but I can't find the prices for the furnaces. Any feedback you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Kevin
It's great they replaced it with the proper size. It's very unusual for a company to admit they did anything wrong. It is great they replaced it with a correct size. The price difference in a furnace sizes are very small 80-200 max. The cost the company incurred to change the furnace was much greater than that. The are unlikely to sell the original furnace since it is now used. Sounds like thay took a big loss. As long as it is running properly and safely I would call it good.
Somewhat worried we are in need of a new furnace getting installed tomorrow. Was quoted a 92% vs 95% one stage furnace. Price difference was only $400. I decided to go with the 95% somewhat wish I would of went for the 92% to save us money. We are going with a Trane brand. Our last one has lasted over 19 years.
Installation, proper commissioned installation is more important than brand. I'm not saying do or don't but What is wrong with the old one? What region?
@@love2hvac I live in NC. My gas bill normally $200 some never over $300 but for March $422. We normally keep the temp 68-70 It did snow and be freezing a lot in February though. It was it broke once i cant remember what was wrong would turn on and make noise but nothing was blowing it was the part that deals with the temp wasnt working so the thing didnt know to cut on to blow and then broke again and this time its the motor I believe. An the company that is installing the new one is licensed and was the same company that put in the other. It was serviced for 9 of the 10 years but when we took over the house didnt know anything about the upkeep of a house and just now learning the ends and outs. Already got a new hot water heater and a air conditioner will be next.
There are solutions. Thousands upon thousands of these run in the northern regions. If we could get installers and sales people to follow the installation instructions it solves most of the issues. The rest just need customer attention but there is always a solution.
The location of the exhaust, The pitch of the flue, the length of the flue, the number of elbows, how much pipe is exposed, and Wich side of the house it's on all play a part. Also when people add screens cause big problems.
I installed my 96% Goodman, i have checked the flue and intake outside and there's zero ice even though it was zero degrees outside, if the flue has the correct slope- the condensation drains back into the furnace and down the floor drain. You also install a TEE so it has an open top and bottom
@@Jonatone yes, maybe the flue wasnt sloped the required 1/4" per foot, so a 10 foot long pipe should have a slope of 2-1/2", 20 foot long should have 5" of slope, if it's not condensation won't drain as well back to the furnace and out the floor drain
When they are installed properly they work the same as 80% Unfortunately they are often installed incorrectly and that causes problems. Single stage is the simplest and cheapest to work on. Next is the 2nd stage. Modulating is the most expensive to repair.The efficiency of each one is the same, in theory the modulating provides more comfort with longer rim cycles at lower capacity. In reality leaking ductwork and improper installation makes them the most prone. Modulating furnaces also are the most expensive parts and the most difficult to diagnose.
Some people have had bad experiences with modulating 90+, an improperly installed 90+, don't understand the operation of a 90+, or have had to deal with the expensive and limited parts cost of specifically modulating 90+
You are correct in single stage furnaces have the same parts as a mid 80. As for it being a good idea, it depends. A single stage and a 2 stage is actually the same efficiency. A 2 stage has the ability to run longer on lower stage for less temperature swings but the parts do cost significantly more. Properly sized single stage furnaces with a sealed home will perform the same and have the same comfort. Most furnaces in the country are oversized even for the leaky houses they are installed in. When they run in low they are actually running closer to a single stage furnace that's properly sized.
@@love2hvac A properly sized single stage is oversized most of the time and will never get to run continuously except for in the coldest 1% of weather and when warming the house up. A properly sized 2-stage controlled by 2-stage stat will never shut off in a cold snap, just shift between low and high - and offer much better comfort than single, it feels like hot water heat where the rads stay hot after the stat satisfies. The extra part cost of a two stage of same efficiency is not that significant if it has the multi-speed constant torque blower motor. If it's variable speed/constant airflow, yes it can be substantially more. For most applications, single stage is totally obsolete - it only makes sense if the duct system is not suitable for the reduced airflow on low fire. 80% is also totally obsolete in cold climates exception being applications where venting is not practical and or condensate freezing is a high risk.
True, ductwork is horrible nationwide. Leaking ductwork is a bigger issue for an 80% and even worse for a natural draft. As the air leaks out of the ducts the house becomes negative pressure, pulling air back in. This air comes back down the flue pipe of the furnace but also the water heater and chimney bringing CO into the home.
@@love2hvac I not HVAC technical. I just had a 96% efficient Trane furnace installed. I see problem when it is running/operating, that I know of. The problem I have may be ductwork, or outside air intake into the furnace, or both. The furnace is in an unheated crawlspace. The problem is that when it gets cold outside (below freezing) I can feel cold air coming from the registers when the furnace is not running. It's not blowing air necessarily, but cold just the same. I have checked the ductwork and can't find any major issues. I even added some insulation around the metal register ends hoping it wold help. It's a small height crawlspace, so it's not easy to maneuver down there, especially being a larger (6'6") and older person with bad shoulders and neck. Can I assume that something is not insulated properly? Is this problem fixable?
Everything is fixable just not always affordable 😁 You have an air leakage problem. I would recommend having a blower door test done with a duct blast. This test will show you where air is leaking in your home. Even if you had no insulation in the ducts you would not have a cool draft unless you have air leakage allowing air movement. There is a excellent book called " a house needs to breath... Or does it?" By Allison A. Bailes III, PhD Start with a blower door test of your home then go from there. Energy auditors, home performance and building science professionals offer these tests.
@@love2hvac One question of confusion on the air intake pipe. Does it have a damper to shut the air intake when the furnace is not running? If it doesn't, what's to stop the cold air from circulating throughout the entire system, ductwork and all? We've already been in the teens, temperature-wise here at night.
My recommendation is stick with an 80% if you can buy an Old furnace by an old one! With the old pilot they last and the gas prices have been higher ever since the new furnace been put in!
Let's look at the facts. 80,000 BTU 80% AFUE Multi-Speed Single Stage Goodman Gas Furnace - Upflow/Horizontal GMES800803BN $1005.00 80,000 BTU 96% AFUE Single Stage Goodman Gas Furnace Upflow/Horizontal GMES960803BN $1,598.00 The condensing furnaces cost 62% more at 16% fuel savings. Modulating furnaces are the ones that are expensive, but not condensing. Condensing furnaces are mandated in the north east, it's a matter of time before it's nation wide. Once upon a time people said the same things going from standing pilot 60% to 80%
The down side to the 90%+ furnaces: - They cost a LOT more initiall - They cost more to repair - Because they do not burn household air and send it up the flue, the household air becomes stale.It is similar to during the A/C season when the household becomes stale. So, you open the windows to let in fresh COLD air. So much for high efficiency! Of course, you can install an expensive air exchanger. - The payback can be YEARS, depending on the price of gas locally. The one real winner is the local HVAC dealer! Higher price for the equipment he sells, higher price for the installation, and more repairs over the years.
A 90%+ furnace does not cost a lot more to install or repair, however a modulating 90%+ furnace does. There is a big difference in the 2. 80% Furnaces is supposed to pull it's air from outside also. Usually from outside, to the attic, to uper and lower pipes into the closet and then to the furnace. Even if a code violated furnace is installed without combustion air using house hold air, the air has to be replaced, pulling air from outside uncontrolled through the walls, cracks, windows, doors, back drafting from the fireplace and water heater. It's better to have the "expensive" air exchanger to control the air transfer, filter and heat recovery rather than pull from all those uncontrolled places and associated moisture deposited in the walls. The cost difference between a 90%+ non modulating and a 80% furnace is about $1000. The pay back on the difference depends on gas costs and region. Many places have mandated 90+ furnaces, so an 80 is not even an option, just as they did with standing pilot and 60% furnaces. A non modulating condensing furnace has all the same parts as an 80%. The heat exchanger is extended with a secondary and the inducer fan is plastic instead of metal and the combustion chamber is sealed. All the other parts are the same. If the local HVAC company actually installed the system correctly there is no more repairs or maintenance than an 80%.
No difference in maintenance. Reliability is only because Installers don't read and follow the installation instructions. 80% furnaces also need to have the gas meter clicked and combustion analysis done but because "it works" good enough without it people neglect them too. People are still using sand to clean flame sensors.
I remember in 1989 when the 78% AFUE was passed. 2011 the proposed rule was 90% in the north and 80% in the south/ southwest. May 1, 2013 the U.S department of Energy (DOE) was going to officially enforce a new furnace efficiency standard AFUE efficiency of 90% or more. However, on April 5, 2013, DOE made a statement that the standard would not be enforced. 92% AFUE was set to go into effect for the NE by 2015 but that got changed again. While the national standard was not finalized individual states had their own requirements. For example New Jersey chapter 6 heating systems states: " AFUE of 90% for new gas furnaces where not restricted by building design and where cost-effective. Massachusetts allows 80% but requires a 92% for any of their rebate programs. None of the energy star programs are 80%. Just passed by the DOE, all new furnaces regardless of region will have a minimum 95% AFUE by 2028.
Few points here Most furnaces are oversized, this causes comfort issues and short cycling that reduces heat exchanger life. If the system was properly sized, operating on low fire for a longer duration extends heat exchanger life and provides more comfort with less temperature swings. Another factor that plays a big part in this is duct sealing. If the ducts are sealed properly there is no issue, but when ducts leak, they push heat into the attic space closing energy, the even more energy loss as the hose has to replace the air by infiltration from the air outside. It is a double loss of energy. If the ducts are leaking then a longer run time causes more gas usage. Another big factor is improper furnace setup. So few technicians clock the gas meter to ensure proper input BTU with the BTU gas content. There is also a lack of people who perform combustion anylysys. So furnaces that are over firing because the spuds(orifice) was not properly matched will have a large impact on system operation especially at low fire conditions. If the system is properly sized, properly set uo and a properly sealed duct system there should be no difference. If it takes 60k BTU to heat a space in 10 minutes or 30k BTU to heat the same space in 20 minutes, it's still the same amount of BTU. 2 stage systems are much simpler operation, cheaper parts, and easier to diagnose than modulating furnaces. Like it or not we will be dealing with 2 stages, modulating and even cold climate heat pumps replacing furnaces. What good is a high effect system in a home that is not air sealed or a duct system that is not air sealed in a home with an oversized unit in the first place.
@@rcpmac Here you go the guy installs furnaces for a living. Skip to 5min 32 sec in video to 7min 50 sec ruclips.net/video/fS2728r5SLI/видео.html Don't kill the messenger.
@@love2hvac are their companies our here that tackle duct sealing if drywall and framing is in place? Is a tear down the only resort to correcting the issue?
Service and maintenance cost is the same. All the the same components expect 90 has plastic inducer fan and a secondary heat exchanger with PVC. All the components and service is the same. Your confusing 90+ with 90+ modulating. Modulating equipment costs a lot more and does require more maintenance. A good part of the country does not allow 80% and it is a matter of time before new regulations will make it nationwide.
Excellent video and explanation - answered questions I’ve had for years. Thank you for all your time to produce and edit this video, and even to draw the high efficiency one. 😊
In Canada the sale of furnaces on the left have been banned for a long time now. I just installed a 80k 96% Dual stage fully variable speed furnace. It's amazing how small they have got over the years. Its only 35 inches high and can be mounted vertical or horizontal. It's important to note that while you can DIY install a modern furnace. There are important safety precaution to consider. You MUST remember to prime your condensate trap. If not, exhaust gases can get into your home via the drain port. Also, it's highly recommended to adjust your gas manifold pressure for both stages. If you live above, 2000ft this is a MUST. Improper manifold adjustment can significantly decrease the life span of your furnace.
Yes, for the record I don't recommend any DIY furnace installation. All those points are 100% accurate. Unfortunately I often see those corners cut but licensed HVAC companies
Great video. Always appreciate your lessons!
I've come across offhand comments about the lack of durability in 90%+ furnaces due to their complexity. I was concerned about that when I bought my current house, as it already had (in 2009) a 90%+ furnace, and I was afraid it would soon fail. 24 years later, it's still going strong, and will turn 40 in the spring. I've briefly considered going back to an 80% furnace because of the up-front cost of a new 90%+ unit if/when my current one finally dies, but have decided the up-front cost is worth it for the long-term savings.
If it's 24 yrs old now how can it turn 40 in the spring? Mine's about 20 and I've had zero issues
@@martik778 It was installed in 1984.
Didn't think they were made back then. Amazing! Any issues with it?
@@martik778 I keep waiting for something to go wrong, but so far, nothing has. Air filters are 4" thick and expensive ($30, once a year). The criticism has been that "pulse" furnaces are noisy, but it's in the basement, and I don't live there, so a little noise just lets me know that it's working.
@@martik778mine is 29 years old now the 90% and the fan runs nonstop. Its my fault i didnt do yearly maintaince. It looks like mine may need to be replace. They are good. If you maintain it.
6:53 If any argues that leaving the inlet line open to pull in from inside the home don’t use them as an installer. They clearly have zero idea of what there’re doing. Alway pull the air from outdoors and exhaust outdoors to keep indoor pressure near equal. If you pull air from inside the home and exhausted outdoors, you’re literally introducing a negative pressure pulling cool air through cracks in your home, thus offsetting your efficiency.
Excellent comparison, thank you!
Really appreciate the effort and time taken to upload these videos. Although my HVACR program hasn’t began to focus on the heating aspect in any detail so far these videos are giving me a great head start.
I have an 90% HE. its 29 years old. The serviceman who came to see why it isnt blowing air seem hesitant to repair. They keep pushing me to buy their furnace and offer 10 warranty on a new one but they are gonna use my old box. They gonna give me a new fan, new board and a new thermostat for $4500 not including yearly maintain svc. If a parts needing replace they dont want to touch it, damn.
Great to see you back, Ty!
I'm a technician with 3 years experience and had no idea what a 90% was till today, thanks!
Wonderful and simple explanation, 90% plus furnace does need more attention especially drain issues. I enjoyed watching the video. Thank you Sir.
My HVAC is pumped up into my washing machine drain so I can hear it tinkle and know if it's clogged, and we freeze REALLY hard so this keeps her from plugging up-50% of the plastic tube is above ground and warm.
My prior home had a 96% furnace and the drain line would freeze multiple times per winter - so I'd arrive home to a wet floor in the laundry. A giant PITA. Much happier with the 80% furnace in the garage of my new home. They're bombproof, reliable, easy to service, and cheap to repair or replace. Simply wear a sweater and lower your thermostat if you want to reduce your gas consumption.
@@Monkeyseemonkey79totally agree. 80% is the way to go and I don’t mind paying extra gas during the 3 month winter..
I'm in central NC and only spend about $500 on heating gas between Dec- March (mostly last 2 weeks of Dec thru 1st week of March) at which point we shut the furnace off completely. 10 % savings vs the 80% AFE model would be minimal for me. At best I might save $50.00 year on a 90% efficiency model ---- It's neglible in my case so I'll probably go cheapest route with the lennox Merit economy. At least your video helped calculate and refine my thought process.
80% works well as long as the home is not tightly sealed. If it's going in a tight house or sealed attic then consider the other.
Also consider a dual fuel heat pump. Heat pump is more efficient higher ambient than even the gas in many places. Then use the gas on the colder days or when you need faster heat. They work well together
Be sure to get a heat load calculation. One of the biggest issues is oversized furnaces and I oversized AC.
Who ever installed the furnace, have them clock the gas meter for input BTU. Sometimes the offices have to be changed. Also have a combustion analysis performed. They should give you a print out of the conditions.
Exactly. If you are in a mild climate and or areas where gas is relatively inexpensive, the payback period is YEARS!
heres the thing most hvac companies will not tell you about high efficiency furnaces. What you "save" on your monthly gas bill goes straight out the window when it comes time to service or even replace. 90% have a lifespan of around 10-15 years where as 80 % last 20+ years
High efficiency furnaces tend to start having problems not long after the warranty runs out on the equipment installed. They have a secondary heat exchanger and are equipped with more safety switches and sensors, that can and will lead to more service calls.
The upfront cost is more expensive based on equipment cost and labor/material. If you go from an 80-90% you have to install an entirely new pvc exhaust system as opposed to adapting to the existing metal one. The install could take as much as an extra day depending on how difficult it could be to find a way to run the flue based on how your house is set up.
I would advise towards investing in a 2 stage 80+% furnace. In short, it wont burn as hot or intensely on cooler days and the "extra" cost is dollars more per month, not hundreds.
If a 90% furnace is having that short of a life span it was not installed correctly. The #1 issue I find with 90% furnaces time and time again is improperly installed.
The only reason they are not lasting is because the companies are not installing them correctly including airflow.
Meanwhile other companies installing them properly with proper airflow and static readings have them lasting over 20 years.
Single stage 90% are simple to work on and affordable parts just like the 80.
2 stage is much more expensive. No reason to have a 2 stage 80.
The real problem is modulating furnaces, those parts are expensive and it's more difficult to diagnose.
A 2 stage or modulating furnace is not any more efficient.
A 2 stage vs single stage 80 is the same efficiency. Most furnaces are oversized, so companies like to install the 2 stages instead of doing a heat load calculation and installing the proper sized equipment.
ACCA manual J, S D and T
Please the installation manual and customers would be comfortable and systems would last longer.
@@love2hvac its not the installation of a 90% furnace, they straight up dont last as long period. I just replaced a high efficiency boiler installed absolutely perfectly by the previous crew and 10 years later there was a hole in the heat exchanger the size of my thumb.
Whether its a furnace, boiler or condenser, the high efficiency ones dont even come close to total lifespan of standard counter parts
The problem with a two stage furnace is the cost of draft inducer motor which needs two speeds. My draft inducer motor lasts about seven years & the part is $600 & with instillation it is $1000. Lennox parts are super expensive I would by a Goodman. Unless your house is super insulated just go with single stage.
A 2 speed motor doesn't cost that much more than a single speed for manufacturing.
The problem is the manufacture marking things up, the supply house marking things up and then the company marking things up. Private quiet companies are buying up all the HVAC companies and they are requesting Every penny they can out of the market.
A lot of these companies are raising prices so high that it makes a new unit look cheaper so they can sell more units and increase profits. I know of several large companies that trains primarily in sales and sales tactics.
@@love2hvac I agree with you. I am thankful I can do some of this work my self otherwise it might be better to just buy a new unit.
@@love2hvac Goodman is one of the few that will sell directly to the public.
Some 2-stage draft inducers are more expensive than others the contractors gouge on repairs and markup.
Thank you, very informative.
I find the 80% is simple to install, operate, and maintain.
True, Yet most 80% furnaces are not installed correctly. The best exchanger should never fail yet they frequently from improper operation, setup and install.
It is rare to run a combustion analysis on an 80% furnace and be good with a new customer.
Every 80% furnace has im the instruction manual about clicking the meter, yet only a few people actually do.
Flue pipes are often installed incorrectly.
If I could only get installers to actually read and follow the instructions manuals, systems would operate better and for much longer.
Where have you been. Great to see you
Simplicity is reliability
But Cheap is UNreliable
And Americans are largely simpletons who can see beyond their wallets
Very positive presentation on the high efficiency gas furnace. However, you did not cover the cost premium for the higher efficiency furnace including the cost of the PVC intake and exhaust. I would guess the payback on the more efficient unit vs. gas and electric savings is out several years. Also, more complexity in the furnace likely means more parts to break down and higher costs to repair.
How much more is the cost for installing the PVC?
A single stage 90 will have the same parts as a single stage 80, except the 90 will have a sealed combustion box and the inducer wheel will be plastic and a secondary heat exchanger.
Same for 2 stage vs 2 stage.
When you get to modulating furnaces the parts are much more expensive and more difficult to diagnose but a modulating furnace does not make the system more efficient.
The price difference between a single stage 80 and a single stage 90+ is very close.
In many parts of the country, they are not allowing the sale and install of and 80% and regulation is on its way to end the sale of all 80% as the government will move to 90+ and heat pumps.
We can learn about it and adapt or be left behind.
@@love2hvac Sure but we get only the positive part of the debate. When I asked for a price on a basic 80% vs. 95% unit, I was told that the premium for the higher efficiency unit was $3,000. My NG budget is $70 per month including hot water. If my heating cost is $50 per month or $600 per year and I save 20% over the 80% unit, my savings for NG is $120 per year. I will save additional on electricity but ECM's are available on 80% units so the electric saving is minimal, I think. Assuming a total savings is $200 per year, the payback is 15 years assuming equal life and equal repair costs. Several HVAC techs have told me that repair costs for 95%+ units is significantly higher and more frequent. The government claims the higher efficiency will produce $80 billion in savings over 10 years for NG purchases but don't mention the $ billions to replace the furnaces.
Many of my neighbors had heat pumps and NG furnaces for extra cold days installed in their new homes several years ago. Almost all have replaced the heat pumps with AC units and kept the NG furnaces due to the maintenance costs of the heat pumps.
I own a home in the NE with NG furnace and a home in the S with a heat pump. The heat pump went for 12 years and cost $6,300 to replace but the 20 year old NG furnace is still running well.
What is crazy is a company charging an additional $3k for a condensing furnace 😳🤯 the equipment cost difference is about $200 plus PVC and 2hrs additional labor installing.
As for the techs that say there are more problems with condensing raises concern. Are they specifying between a modulating furnace that is very expensive and cost more for part vs a single or 2 stage. Excluding modulating, it's the same gas valve, offices, burners control board, ignitor and flame sensor.. I find most companies that have issues with condensing equipment are not installed correctly. I get paid to go out and solve these issues for companies. What that means is I just read the installation manual to them and make sure they follow it. There are units here that are over 20 years old only requiring typical preventative maintenance.
One of the things that are driving repair cots up is the ECM . Otor you mentioned that even the 80% has. A PSC motor company cost was around $100 but an ECM can be $800-1300. ECM is also a government mandate.
As far as pay back, it's often not seen for a while (or ever with that over priced 3k difference)
If we really want to discuss payback, why not repair your existing furnace? Even if it needs a new heat exchanger your looking at about $1- 1.5k to replace.
An old furnace can be repaired for a long time compared to a new one if we are looking at payback.
When the goveent looks at file savings they are looking at it as a whole, collectively. Having a 5 gallon flush toilet vs a 1.6 gallons flush will not pay for itself in waterbill savings, but collectively saves a considerable amount of water.
Either way in many parts of the country 80% AFUE furnaces are not allowed and soon it will be most of the country.
Heat pumps are also being pushed by the government for better, worse or indifferent.
I solve problems and I also teach. Part of teaching is technology and preparing people. Everywhere you go there are people that romanticize about the good ole days and how everything was better before. But if I taught automotive and talked about how bad fuel injection and computers are and how great carburators and point system where, I would not be helping anyone.
By talking about "how great" an 80% furnace is is how "evil and bad" a condensing furnace is, helps nobody. There needs to be positivity so techs are not afraid of them and can actually service and install them correctly. It needs to be taught so customers don't get screwed with an importer installation and the tech just blaming technology as bad to hide their own lack of knowledge and understanding.
Condensing furnaces have been around since 1980. That's over 40 years so even that's hardly new technology.
I also teach heat pumps, electric heat and hydronics.
Everything about HVAC today is technology but people also have the choose of heating with a wood burning stove and firewood. I also solve problems for them as well as they have issues people don't know how to diagnose when installed in a modern home.
People get so upset at this video about condensing furnaces. They also get mad at heat pump videos.
I have no say in what is being pushed by the government or what is being invented by manufactures. Yet people want to complained to me instead learning from a free video. Notice I am not selling anything or made any money promoting any product.
I get it, a lot of people are afraid of change, a lot of people hate technology, a lot of people are angry. But is it so wrong to have a video that's positive? Is it so wrong to want techs to not be afraid of technology they will be encountering?
Should I just make videos talking about how great the good old days were and how everything about everything was better back then? Maybe I could connect to an Amish community and I could talk about how bad electricity and vehicles are.
@@love2hvac Just want the positive and negatives to be presented so we all can make informed decisions.
Thank you very much sir.
Ty, thanks both for the presentation and for your attention to questions from comments. I want to share my experience on having a new 96% efficiency Ameristar 100k btu furnace. I did the install myself and delayed putting in the condensate drain so I had it running into a bucket. It’s remarkable how much condensate is generated by this furnace! We have a moderate heating load in Seattle but had a cold snap a week ago. 6 gallons of condensate in 24 hours. I’m now considering where I want that water deposited outside as I’m located on a hillside. Not a question just an observation.
Great job.
You have to be careful to drain it outside as it will freeze.
Use an acid neutralizer and put it in the sanitary drain if at all possible.
@@love2hvacI have a hole in my slab that my AC drains into, is there any reason i cant let a 90% drain there? It’s below the frost line since it’s in a basement. Also, I have a fairly new 80% Goodman furnace, it was here when i bought the house 2 years ago. I spent a chunk of money air sealing and better insulating my house, I really would much rather have 90% and two stage. Any idea how i can do this without wasting a nearly brand new 80% Goodman?
@@mark33545
Hi Mark,
The hole in the slab, it would depend on where that goes. Often they will go to a sump pump that is pumped out somewhere. If that's the case it would need an acid neutralizer in the drain so it doesn't eat away the pump. The same would go for city drains.
If the drain continues under the frost line in a type of French drain system, then it would be fine. I have seen those drains not be deep enough once it's outside and freezes.
As for the new furnace, it will be a significant cost that you will likely not see the ROI. It would depend on how well sealed the home is.
You can speak to an energy auditor or someone in home sealing home performance that can run a blower door test to find how well sealed your home is.
If it's really tight, a condensing furnace with a sealed combustion may be necessary.
An 80% furnace to be combustion air for the furnace (and water heater if it's gass too) In some cases I have seen people pipe an outside vent to the furnace combustion area. You would have to check your local codes to see if that is allowed, but speaking with someone who does home performance would be even better. You can't seal the other vents if the furnace either so it's still not a sealed combustion but it helps control some of the outside air.
Hopefully that helps
@@love2hvac Thank you! that is very helpful. To be honest i have no idea where the hole in the slab goes, i assumed it just aborbs into the ground/gravel under the slab.
RE: the 90%, i figured i would never see an ROI. TBH, The biggest feature I want is 2 stage. I hate that my 80% turns on full blast, make the house very hot very fast and then is cool for the next hour until it runs again. Ideally i would have the ability to add a stage to my 80%, perhaps they make a retrofit kit that adds a pressure sensor, 2 stage inducer motor and 2 stage gas valve? probably at that point it would make sense to just get a new unit though. :/
It sounds like your furnace is grossly oversized. Unfortunately most of them are. We are finding furnaces across the country 1.5 to 3 times bigger than what the house needs. This leads to uncomfortable homes.
If you can find a home performance company, get them to do a blower door test with an ACCA manual J heat load calculation. It says manual j is usually a computer program such as "Kwik Model" to find the size.
For a 2 stage furnace, it would be cheaper to replace the furnace.
You can also look at rebate programs. Sometimes there is money for upgrading to a 95% furnace, a heat pump or a combination of the 2.
THANKS FOR THE INFO
I was going to change our 1958 Lennox furnace for a new energy efficient one, but over the years as new fees and taxes were added to our gas bill, to the point that it was pointless, I will stick with my trusty old friend with all it's mechanical components! I still have the stand by pilot light, and belt driven blower with hammock filter!
Please
Get a low level CO monitor for each room. NOT an alarm but a low level monitor.
I have a video about CO and the difference between low level monitor and an alarm.
That's horrible, gas is more expensive then ever
So if I read this right, you want to stick to an old inefficient furnace because taxes and fees were added to your gas bill? you will still be paying those taxes and fees no matter what gas furnace you have, but those fees and taxes will be LESS with a new furnace because you will be using LESS gas!
I replaced my 80% Lennox Conservator G11-e 110,000 furnace that I brought home used from work in 2003, it was about 35 years old when I recently replaced it with a new Goodman 96% 80,000 btu, so right off the bat it's 16% more efficient, probably more because the old Lennox took all it's combustion air from the basement which pulls in cold air around every little crack and gap, and it had a 5" flu going outside that was open to the sky, when the wind shifted a certain way cold air would be pushed DOWN the flu into the room.
The new furnace, I installed it myself with all the returns and ducts- has been working perfectly, it was zero degrees outside this morning 73 degrees is what I have the thermostat set for, the 80,000 btu's is plenty to heat the house, the 110,000 lost at least 20% plus the losses of the open flu and the combustion air coming from the room- so it's max output was no more than 85,000 btu. The new 96% 80,000 puts out about 77,500 btu
Excellent case study. Thanks
If 1958, change it! At least get one with ecm technology!
I have a bad experience with the constant sensor problems on high efficiency furnace. My 80% efficient furnace works with no maintenance needed. The 95% one needed at least one $100 service call every season, burning all gas savings.
That sounds like it wasn't installed properly. I've seen plenty of 90+ furnaces neglected for years and still running flawless.
well, the problem is, the heat exchanger in old furnaces corrode thru or crack and you WILL HAVE to replace it anyway
@@HobbyOrganist Just make sure you have alloy steel pipe heat exchangers in the furnace you choose. It is the stamped metal exchangers that rust through.
@@love2hvacguilty, mine is 29 years old. The serviceman who came to service it wants me to rid of it and buy their furnace.
Great vid. TYVM
Mine is a single pipe system. It uses the vented crawl space for combustion air. Main concern where I live is radon so the furnace creates convection down there.
I dont buy the radon bs, I ordered several of those First Alert radon kits, i put them in the basement and so on, the mfr's web site had maps of the USA, and on the map was my town of 1700 people, and lo and behold, clear to me what an amazing coincidence, MY house had the highest amount of any other in town= 16.4 LOL! like I'm going to believe that amazing coincidence!
So I tried another round of the tests, this time I set one right INSIDE the dry sump pump pit in the basement, and I put one on my desk UPSTAIRS, remember- they claim radon is heavier than air and settles to the lowest location, well, the basement sump pump pit is not only the lowest location it's direct access to the ground not concreted over like the rest of the basement floor is.
I got the result back and the one that was on my desk upstairs had a MUCH higher amount than the one sitting INSIDE the sump pit in the basement LOL!!!!
REALLY??? stop with this scam already!
Of course the results listed a few "approved" remediation contractors all very happy to give me a call and fleece me for a few grand!
I know the former owner's son, they lived here from 1941 into the early 80s, he was a little boy when his folks moved into this house, he is now almost 90 years old. His mom passed away in the local nursing home in her mid 80s.
Wow! Another amateur rewriting the science based on their bias and individual experience. Spare us please.
in germany we use top notch "Weißhaupt brennwert" units or "junkers rund brenner" they work on same pricaple
Hot air is rarely used in Germany. Hot water with radiators or in floor piping is more the norm.
Thank You Ty!
Ty -- Your video is exactly what I was looking for! Thank You SO MUCH! I've been in my own head scratching web researching dilemma for several days simply due to the rust holes in the 4" exhaust flue pipe made of galvanized metal from the furnace running about 15' to and through a concrete/brick wall for exhausting outside the house. I have revised my shopping list for flue parts about three times! I'm in TN, my Brother is in MD. We have been on the phone for hours beating this subject to death! It all boiled down to viewing your video! I thought if I replaced all the flue pipes and elbows with PVC I would no longer have rust from condensation. I entertained the idea of Type B flue with the inner aluminum or stainless steel to reduce the chance of rust. I had settled on using PVC but I don't think I should. My furnace is right around 2 years old. It is an American Standard with attaching Air Conditioning. It has a condensate pump which apparently works only during air conditioning season. So long story short, my fairly new furnace is the 80% efficient which as you very well differentiate in your video to a more efficient 90% which I think my Brother may have. His exhaust flue is PVC and reduced down to about 3 inches, the photos he sent me look great. I don't believe I should use PVC connecting to the exhaust of the furnace simply due to the 20% wasted going to the outside. I tend to think the heat leaving the furnace would be too much, would love your thoughts! I think I'm changing my furnace shopping list back to 4 inch galvanized flue pipe and watch for rust and change it out again in a couple of years. Keep in mind I'm in Tennessee and NO ONE pays attention to Laws or CODE! If it can't be fixed with Duct Tape or J-B Weld...it just "ain't broke." I'm too old for all this fun, I love my home and property but I want to do things correctly, preferably only once and live through a few more Birthdays! AGAIN, Thank You! Excellent Video! Tom
It should be vented using 26 gauge galvanized metal pipe and fittings, or preferably B-vent pipe and fittings. If you use B-vent the corrosion will not be quite as bad as the double wall design of B-vent helps not only to keep it fairly cool to touch but also keep the heat in the vent preventing the flue gases from condensing and rusting the pipe out, which is what you are experiencing
Glad I can help, there are good people out there just hard to find.
High-efficiency burner all well and good but when it breaks it cost a fortune to fix so what the hell are you saving
same could be said for carbarated engines.
At one point the 80% furnace was modern and people said the same about it, before it was the standing pilot and their at the time modern controls, then before that was the cast iron heaters that replaced the simple and reliable wood burning stoves.
Technology and change comes if people likes it or not.
The biggest issue with the 90% furnaces is improper installation, improper airflow and improper setup. Once techs learn the systems and read the fabulous manuals they become quite simple and reliable.
@@love2hvac hmm
My dad had a furnace in this house for over forty-two years and they said it had a hairline crack in it! And they never did show it! Since then on the third furnace them high-efficiency furnaces only last like 10 years or less! Next time I'm putting back in 80% and you don't have to worry about a damn water pump condensation! Hell I might even put in a wood burner!
You only have 2 years left before new regulations take over.
@@jcaleca60 correct; it would be nice if he would discuss the repair costs of both types of furnaces, 80% wins hands down
Thank you
We just got a 90%+ installed in our finished basement. Unfortunately, Code here allows intake from
inside the house, so the builders installed the retired furnace that way. The new furnace was also installed with the intake pipe left inside the house in a U shape. I'm guessing they are doing this because there is a deck outside and the flue pipe is under the deck and no other way for the intake to go other than be sucking in the exhaust.
Most do it because they just don't understand why.
Some don't want the extra work of installing the pipe.
Some are concerned about extreme conditions, but a tee and a manual cap/plug/or valve solves that.
The u shape inside is so nothing falls into the burner section.
The air intake is usually near the flue exhaust without an issue.
I do have concerns about the flue exiting under a deck. It raises a red flag and a lot of questions.
You can do an intake inside as the air is pre heated which is actually more efficient. In Canada it makes more sense than pulling cold air from outside as well no possibilities of ice up or snow drifts. You still need to exit the house which needs to be done on the side so you don't have any obstructions
I have an 80% with an EVAP coil on top of it. I have never had a/c, what purpose has the coil and do I need it if I am replacing my furnace with another 80%?
Even my wood stove gets it's combustion air from outside the house. It's about time my furnace does as well.
Thanks so much, I do have a Trane X90 80,000BTU single stage and my house is a high ceiling and colonial style 2500sqf, one of my rooms upstairs has low heat, do you think 2 stage furnace will be good for me
Polypropylene is probably better with a condensing furnace rather than polyvinyl chlorine, although it depends on the temperature
Helpful
You seem to prefer the high efficiency (HE) furnace in your video. It gives the impression that you save money in the long term. The HE costs significantly more to install, but the idea is you save in fuel bills long term. Not really though. The HE furnaces are materially more complex mechanically and electronically. With many more parts to fail, long term, the repairs are more numerous and expensive. The modest savings in gas bills is quickly eaten up by the maintenance costs. The real beneficiary is the gas company which gets significant tax credits when they can claim your HE furnace purchase as part of their 'energy savings' program.
Let's start with "many more parts to fail".
Let's compare a single stage 80% to a single stage 90%+
They both have combination gas valve, manifold, spuds, inshot burners, rollout switches, primary limits, vacuum pressure switches, IFC, blower motor, housing and wheel that are identical components in the same manufacture. They both have an induced combustion blower but the 90% pluss has the housing made of composite plastic. They both have a heat exchanger but the 90%+ has a secondary heat exchanger made of stainless steel. The 90%+ has in addition a metal combustion box and a plastic drain. 90%+ is 30% more expensive than an 80%. The pay back time if any will depend on the run time and gas cost.
Now If we talk about 2 stage , those parts are more complicated and expensive. But if we compare a 80% 2 stage to a 90%+ 2 stage it is just as listed above.
The complex and difficult units are modulating. They are much more expensive, much more technology, much more expensive. People seem to label all 90%+ with modulating.
Next we have regulations. In many parts of the country 90%+ is mandated and it is a matter of time before it's mandated everywhere. It's being pushed right now.
Already pushed out is other efficiency standards that also affect the 80% such as mandated ECM motors. Before universal PSC motors cost $60-80 now ECM motors cost $900 and more. ECM motors do not work well with improper ductwork. People with new 80% furnaces are complaining about this just like 90%+
The biggest issue is lack of skilled training in the skilled trade.
I find the majority of 80% and 90%+ furnaces are not installed correctly, not set up correctly, running on improper ductwork, improperly sized. I find techs and installers do not follow the installation instructions. They do not even know how to clock the gas meter, change orifices. Some companies don't even have combustion analyzers and certainly don't know how to use them. So .any companies are not checking static pressure a big cause of heat exchanger failure and blower failure. So many of the companies are so eager to sell a new unit they are not performing heat load calculations Manual J, manual S for proper selection, manual D for proper duct design, or mannual t for how to blow the air.
We can't expect to just sell boxes designed and regulated differently the same way there where 40 years ago.
It's like having mechanics that prefer carbonators trying to work on fuel injection system. They both work but the complex one is what we have and when it's done right it works.
Meanwhile hestpumps are in the move.
To me it's technology. Technology is moving forward if we like it or fight it. Its much easier when we learn about it.
@@love2hvac I couldn't agree more. The value derived from HE is variable and also dependent on the uneven knowledge of the installer. With all the moving parts mentioned in this thread, it is worth considering the simpler solution to heat your home. This is really my only point. 80% percent efficiency with a good warranty and quality parts can service most homeowner's needs for decades. Regards.
Low and high fire… must this be done manually every season? Or is this automatic based on ambient temp or?? THX for this video and info!
Best to check low and high fire every season.
80% furnaces last much longer, if installed properly. 90% furnaces are prone to more failures and are expensive to fix, especially if it's the Lennox brand.
A wood burning stove lasts the longest, least prone to failure and the cheapest to fix.
@@love2hvac Not like a log fire under a cave entrance...... LOL
@@love2hvac I have wood burning stove and the heat it puts out, let’s just say you can feel the heat in your bones. In the event of a power outage, it’s nice to know I can still have heat in my house. But it is a pain in the ass having to re-load it every few hours or keep a eye on it. I’m re-doing my duct work at the moment. I have a Mr. Cool 80% gas furnace. Do you think it’s smart to invest into a 90% or higher condensing unit? I know someone mentioned the parts can be more pricey if not installed correctly. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
@@joseochoa7043
Any furnace install and maintained will operate properly and for a long time.
90% furnaces are pretty simple and just as dependable. The problem is they are often installed incorrectly. The modulating 90% furnaces have several layers of complexity and the modulating furnace parts are very expensive. I think a lot of people confuse modulating condensing furnaces with standard condensing furnaces. For example my 80% and 90% furnaces use the same gas valve. How we a modulating 90% uses a very expensive valve.
All that aside, if you have an 80% furnace there is absolutely no reason to change it. Make sure you have LOW LEVEL CO monitors not detectors but low level monitors. Make sure the furnace has a combustion anylaysis done yearly. When the time comes to replace it then you can change at that time.
@@love2hvac Appreciate the feedback man. I’m going to see how this furnace does in the winter with the new duct work. Do you know who makes Mr. Cool? I couldn’t find anything, trying to check if it’s still under warranty? Is there furnace that is a two stage or modulating that is reliable with a good warranty you recommend?
My furnace just needed replacing. Time to dump my old inefficient unit and get a 98% one👍
Installation is extremely important.
See if a company can do a blower door test to find the home leak rate and then do a heat load calculation off that number. That way you can get the correct size for comfort and longevity.
Most furnaces (and Ac) in the US are oversized.
So with HE is its outdated we just dump it and go with the new??? Is servicing out of the question? I have a 90% HE. it will not blow air but the svcman does not want to work on it. Its gonna cost me less to repair then to buy their new furnace. They are filling me with BS. is there a real company i can call for real answers who dont push me to buy their furnace??? I just want mine repair
Many companies pay their techs more to sell than to fix. Many companies have lots of sales training and very little technical training.
There are a lot of really great companies and service techs out there. Generally the company that spends the most money on advertising, billboards, radio, ect are the most expensive. You can't trust reviews anymore either. If they have a lot of reviews, it's likely they paid a lot of money to get them.
Look for smaller to midsized companies.
Be weary of "free" service call or the free with repair service calls.
Many companies pay their techs more to sell than to fix. Many companies have lots of sales training and very little technical training.
There are a lot of really great companies and service techs out there. Generally the company that spends the most money on advertising, billboards, radio, ect are the most expensive. You can't trust reviews anymore either. If they have a lot of reviews, it's likely they paid a lot of money to get them.
Be weary of free service calls, or diagnostics fee waved with repair. (And the $29.99 rune up)
If a company askes how old your unit is before they even come out, immediately cancel!
Look for smaller to midsized companies. Ask for a company that uses a combustion analyzer. Ask if they have taken a combustion class.
Get yourself a low level carbon monoxide monitor. Not an alarm but a low level monitor to protect yourself from CO.
I have 80% efficiency 120000 BTU furnace which is 27 years old. This is Midwest so what are the precautions I should do in case of keeping my self prepared for any potential failure of furnace in winter ??!!
#1 have LOW LEVEL CO MONITORS
Alarms will not sound off until the levels are dangerously high, CO monitors will warn you ahead of time.
#2 have the system serviced and maintained. Combustion analysis goes a long way.
#3 have a space heater in hand for emergency use. Can be used to keep one room warm to survive the night.
Optional to have some spare parts such as flame sensor, hot surface ignitor, inducer fan assembly, negative pressure switch are most common and easily replaced.
It is very highly likely your furnace is oversized, most are.
The biggest recommendation is to have blower door testing and home sealing. Air sealing is actually more important than insulation. If your home is sealed well it will hold the heat overnight even if the heater goes out.
This also plays a part when you replace your furnace.
Get a proper ACCA manual J (heat load for sizing) ACCA manual S for proper system selection, ACCA manual D (duct design)
Then you can down size your current unit AND be more comfortable with a healthier home and structure.
When you replace, look at going duel fuel. You can use a heat pump and have a gas furnace as a back up.
With the forced draft blower on the 80%, how far can you run the vent horizontally before you turn up to the roof? Could the B vent exit a side wall?
The 80% It's not a forced draft, it's an induced draft. This means it pulls a draft through the heat exchanger but still relies on natural convection for the flue pipe. The motor and fan is not large enough to pressurize the flue pipe, nor is the B vent rated for pressurization. Category 1 furnace
You will have to check the particular furnace manufacture instructions and local codes to see what the limitations are for vertical runs as they very.
I've seen 90+ Furnaces where the Intake air is connected with the Exhaust pipe going out the roof. Is that right?
Yes if it's a concentric vent here is a video about them.
ruclips.net/video/mBWJ1nwwqmk/видео.html
@@love2hvac dang thats pretty cool. Thank you.
98% furance is more like 95%. 95% is about the most real AFUE you will really get!
Agreed
I did a remodel recently. To maximize living space, I put the furnace in the attic. HVAC folks told me I could only do 80% efficiency up there. I still have a drain pan though... maybe that's for the AC coils? Could I have gone 90%?
A lot of people are scared of the 90% because they don't understand them or they deal with issues from bad installations. I can't think of a scenario where a 90 would not work. It is a matter of time before 80% furnaces are phased out.
I understand needing more space but the attic is the worst possible location for HVAC equipment.
Sorter life, less efficient and harder to service.
@@love2hvac Absolutely agree on the attic! my workplace had installed 3 units in the attic, and 2 on the freaking ROOF, filters in all of them had to be changed weekly (wood shop) and in the cold months the attic got so sold the condensation drains would freeze up, what a headache!
To make it worse, one had a flue/intake combined PVC that had a 90 degree bend, and condensation froze there, furnace guy told me just cut the intake part out so it gets it's air from the attic directly separately.
In the winter the units struggled to provide heat when the units and ducts were all in a space approaching ZERO degrees, in the summer it would be 130 degrees and the a/c couldn't keep up.
The 2 on the roof, on a sloped metal roof, took a 20' extension ladder to get up there, change out the 4 filters each, in the winter there was snow and ICE up there, just STUPID locations to put something like this that you have ti service and change filters on too.
A high efficiency furnace creates water during combustion which can freeze in an unconditioned space like an attic.
1st unconditioned spaces are never good for HVAC equipment or effecency.
2nd If installers actually read the installation manuals so many problems would be avoided.
They have provisions and kits to prevent freezes
Quote Lennox:
"When the furnace is installed in an unconditioned
space, consider provisions required to prevent freezing
of condensate drain system."
Also
"
Con-
densate drain line should be routed within the condi-
tioned space to avoid freezing of condensate and
blockage of drain line. If this is not possible, a heat
cable kit may be used on the condensate trap and line.
Heating cable kit is available from Lennox in various
lengths; 6 ft. (1.8m) − kit no. 26K68; 24 ft. (7.3m) − kit
no. 26K69; and 50 ft. (15.2m) − kit no. 26K70."
Even the flue has considerations
" NOTE − During extremely cold temperatures, below
approximately 20°F (6.7°C), units with long runs of vent
pipe through unconditioned space, even when insulated,
may form ice in the exhaust termination that prevents the
unit from operating properly. Longer run times of at least 5
minutes will alleviate most icing problems. Also, a heating
cable may be installed on exhaust piping and termination to
prevent freeze−ups. Heating cable installation kit is avail-
able from Lennox. See Condensate Piping section for part
numbers."
Tell you do a great job explaining sorry I just had a comment on made in Mexico Lennox
Thanks,
My biggest heartbreak was when Trane moved a good portion of their Tyler Texas operations to Mexico.
Well that and that special girl you fell for in high school
I have a 95% furnace in my home. I really wish I had my old 80% furnace back. These newer 95% furnaces are just a PITA. The 80% furnace heats much better, last much longer with many less issues. I want to remove the 95% furnace and replace it with another 80% furnace. Many of my neighbors feel the same way as I do about these newer furnaces. We just don't like them. I live in the Midwest so I really use my furnace. Not impressed with this newer unit at all.
The issue is unfortunately most people don't install them correctly.
2nd problem is the modulating 90 that is my h more complex than a single 90
3rd you have companies training techs to sell instead of repair.
4th In a good part of the country is not allowed to sell 80%
4th It's also a matter of time before you can't get a gas furnace and the government forces heat pumps on everyone
Keep your old one, if it is broke fix it. Blower. Heat Exchanger. Gas valve, fan switch, flame rollout switch.Too many parts to list on new one.
Hi, I was hoping you could give me some advice. My parents had a new Amana furnace 6 roller (model AMES801205DX installed. Unfortunately they continued to have problems with it. The seller admitted they installed too big of a furnace for their house and replaced it with a Goodman 3 roller (model AMES800604BXAA). They did not receive any refund for the price difference. My dad has dementia and my mom has Parkinson. I think the company took advantage of them, but I can't find the prices for the furnaces. Any feedback you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kevin
It's great they replaced it with the proper size. It's very unusual for a company to admit they did anything wrong. It is great they replaced it with a correct size. The price difference in a furnace sizes are very small 80-200 max. The cost the company incurred to change the furnace was much greater than that. The are unlikely to sell the original furnace since it is now used. Sounds like thay took a big loss.
As long as it is running properly and safely I would call it good.
@@love2hvac thank you for your feedback
@@love2hvac thanks for getting back. I'll go with your advice although I was under the impression Amana furnaces were more expensive than Goodman.
@@kevinswaney5875 But as I recall, Goodman is MADE by Amana...
Somewhat worried we are in need of a new furnace getting installed tomorrow. Was quoted a 92% vs 95% one stage furnace. Price difference was only $400. I decided to go with the 95% somewhat wish I would of went for the 92% to save us money. We are going with a Trane brand. Our last one has lasted over 19 years.
Installation, proper commissioned installation is more important than brand.
I'm not saying do or don't but
What is wrong with the old one?
What region?
@@love2hvac I live in NC. My gas bill normally $200 some never over $300 but for March $422. We normally keep the temp 68-70 It did snow and be freezing a lot in February though. It was it broke once i cant remember what was wrong would turn on and make noise but nothing was blowing it was the part that deals with the temp wasnt working so the thing didnt know to cut on to blow and then broke again and this time its the motor I believe.
An the company that is installing the new one is licensed and was the same company that put in the other. It was serviced for 9 of the 10 years but when we took over the house didnt know anything about the upkeep of a house and just now learning the ends and outs. Already got a new hot water heater and a air conditioner will be next.
What about the ice buildup from the steam coming out the flu in the northern regions?
There are solutions. Thousands upon thousands of these run in the northern regions. If we could get installers and sales people to follow the installation instructions it solves most of the issues. The rest just need customer attention but there is always a solution.
@@love2hvac so if there is ice build up it is likely an installation issue?
The location of the exhaust,
The pitch of the flue, the length of the flue, the number of elbows, how much pipe is exposed, and Wich side of the house it's on all play a part.
Also when people add screens cause big problems.
I installed my 96% Goodman, i have checked the flue and intake outside and there's zero ice even though it was zero degrees outside, if the flue has the correct slope- the condensation drains back into the furnace and down the floor drain. You also install a TEE so it has an open top and bottom
@@Jonatone yes, maybe the flue wasnt sloped the required 1/4" per foot, so a 10 foot long pipe should have a slope of 2-1/2", 20 foot long should have 5" of slope, if it's not condensation won't drain as well back to the furnace and out the floor drain
Are break downs greater with 94% ?
When they are installed properly they work the same as 80%
Unfortunately they are often installed incorrectly and that causes problems.
Single stage is the simplest and cheapest to work on.
Next is the 2nd stage.
Modulating is the most expensive to repair.The efficiency of each one is the same, in theory the modulating provides more comfort with longer rim cycles at lower capacity. In reality leaking ductwork and improper installation makes them the most prone.
Modulating furnaces also are the most expensive parts and the most difficult to diagnose.
So R410a is to be phased out by the end of 2023?
New equipment yes but not old equipment. I will do an update video soon .
Lenox made in Mexico it’s a shame a great company moved all their production in Mexico border shame I’m disappointed
The only furnace I'm aware of made in the USA is a Japan company called Dikain aka amana aka goodman.
American Standard made in USA
That's a consequence of poor economic policy.
Trump sent a lot of production to Mexico & China. Lenox made in Mexico & MAGA hats made in China.
Why would someone recommend an 80% efficiency furnace over 90+ ?
Some people have had bad experiences with modulating 90+, an improperly installed 90+, don't understand the operation of a 90+, or have had to deal with the expensive and limited parts cost of specifically modulating 90+
Because they are piled up in the warehouse. Higher profit margin
you can buy single stage condensing furnaces which have the same parts as single stage mid - not that it's a good idea to buy single stage.
You are correct in single stage furnaces have the same parts as a mid 80.
As for it being a good idea, it depends.
A single stage and a 2 stage is actually the same efficiency.
A 2 stage has the ability to run longer on lower stage for less temperature swings but the parts do cost significantly more.
Properly sized single stage furnaces with a sealed home will perform the same and have the same comfort.
Most furnaces in the country are oversized even for the leaky houses they are installed in. When they run in low they are actually running closer to a single stage furnace that's properly sized.
@@love2hvac A properly sized single stage is oversized most of the time and will never get to run continuously except for in the coldest 1% of weather and when warming the house up. A properly sized 2-stage controlled by 2-stage stat will never shut off in a cold snap, just shift between low and high - and offer much better comfort than single, it feels like hot water heat where the rads stay hot after the stat satisfies.
The extra part cost of a two stage of same efficiency is not that significant if it has the multi-speed constant torque blower motor. If it's variable speed/constant airflow, yes it can be substantially more.
For most applications, single stage is totally obsolete - it only makes sense if the duct system is not suitable for the reduced airflow on low fire. 80% is also totally obsolete in cold climates exception being applications where venting is not practical and or condensate freezing is a high risk.
Furnace: 95% efficient, ductwork: 50%. 😱
True, ductwork is horrible nationwide.
Leaking ductwork is a bigger issue for an 80% and even worse for a natural draft.
As the air leaks out of the ducts the house becomes negative pressure, pulling air back in. This air comes back down the flue pipe of the furnace but also the water heater and chimney bringing CO into the home.
@@love2hvac I not HVAC technical. I just had a 96% efficient Trane furnace installed. I see problem when it is running/operating, that I know of. The problem I have may be ductwork, or outside air intake into the furnace, or both. The furnace is in an unheated crawlspace. The problem is that when it gets cold outside (below freezing) I can feel cold air coming from the registers when the furnace is not running. It's not blowing air necessarily, but cold just the same.
I have checked the ductwork and can't find any major issues. I even added some insulation around the metal register ends hoping it wold help. It's a small height crawlspace, so it's not easy to maneuver down there, especially being a larger (6'6") and older person with bad shoulders and neck.
Can I assume that something is not insulated properly? Is this problem fixable?
Everything is fixable just not always affordable 😁
You have an air leakage problem.
I would recommend having a blower door test done with a duct blast.
This test will show you where air is leaking in your home.
Even if you had no insulation in the ducts you would not have a cool draft unless you have air leakage allowing air movement.
There is a excellent book called " a house needs to breath... Or does it?" By Allison A. Bailes III, PhD
Start with a blower door test of your home then go from there.
Energy auditors, home performance and building science professionals offer these tests.
@@love2hvac Thanks!
@@love2hvac One question of confusion on the air intake pipe. Does it have a damper to shut the air intake when the furnace is not running? If it doesn't, what's to stop the cold air from circulating throughout the entire system, ductwork and all? We've already been in the teens, temperature-wise here at night.
not being "run" as much...
My recommendation is stick with an 80% if you can buy an Old furnace by an old one! With the old pilot they last and the gas prices have been higher ever since the new furnace been put in!
A standing pilot furnace is the worst choice. Many people had CO poisoning because of back drafting and checked heat exchangers.
Then you gotta service it every year so you dont save anything
not saving money with a 90% +. Just "saving the world".
😂😂😂The world is already in schambles
Using a cold climate heat pump will save the world even more.
Furnance, refrigerator, washer machine now these day it will last probably 10 years. Furnance is no different.
You’ll never realize the difference in fuel savings going from 80 to 90, never. Especially since repairing the 90 with cost 3x as much.
Let's look at the facts.
80,000 BTU 80% AFUE Multi-Speed Single Stage Goodman Gas Furnace - Upflow/Horizontal GMES800803BN
$1005.00
80,000 BTU 96% AFUE Single Stage Goodman Gas Furnace Upflow/Horizontal
GMES960803BN
$1,598.00
The condensing furnaces cost 62% more at 16% fuel savings.
Modulating furnaces are the ones that are expensive, but not condensing.
Condensing furnaces are mandated in the north east, it's a matter of time before it's nation wide.
Once upon a time people said the same things going from standing pilot 60% to 80%
80% means 20% goes to waste 90 means 10% goes to waste simply as that
Again, repairing the 90 will cost 3x as much.
The down side to the 90%+ furnaces:
- They cost a LOT more initiall
- They cost more to repair
- Because they do not burn household air and send it up the flue, the household air becomes stale.It is similar to during the A/C season when the household becomes stale. So, you open the windows to let in fresh COLD air. So much for high efficiency! Of course, you can install an expensive air exchanger.
- The payback can be YEARS, depending on the price of gas locally.
The one real winner is the local HVAC dealer! Higher price for the equipment he sells, higher price for the installation, and more repairs over the years.
A 90%+ furnace does not cost a lot more to install or repair, however a modulating 90%+ furnace does. There is a big difference in the 2.
80% Furnaces is supposed to pull it's air from outside also. Usually from outside, to the attic, to uper and lower pipes into the closet and then to the furnace. Even if a code violated furnace is installed without combustion air using house hold air, the air has to be replaced, pulling air from outside uncontrolled through the walls, cracks, windows, doors, back drafting from the fireplace and water heater. It's better to have the "expensive" air exchanger to control the air transfer, filter and heat recovery rather than pull from all those uncontrolled places and associated moisture deposited in the walls.
The cost difference between a 90%+ non modulating and a 80% furnace is about $1000. The pay back on the difference depends on gas costs and region.
Many places have mandated 90+ furnaces, so an 80 is not even an option, just as they did with standing pilot and 60% furnaces.
A non modulating condensing furnace has all the same parts as an 80%. The heat exchanger is extended with a secondary and the inducer fan is plastic instead of metal and the combustion chamber is sealed. All the other parts are the same.
If the local HVAC company actually installed the system correctly there is no more repairs or maintenance than an 80%.
I'll keep my 80% efficiency furnace less maintenance and more reliable
No difference in maintenance.
Reliability is only because Installers don't read and follow the installation instructions.
80% furnaces also need to have the gas meter clicked and combustion analysis done but because "it works" good enough without it people neglect them too.
People are still using sand to clean flame sensors.
Agreed totally
That's a complete lie I live in the North East and I have an 80% gas furnace my entire life.
I remember in 1989 when the 78% AFUE was passed.
2011 the proposed rule was 90% in the north and 80% in the south/ southwest.
May 1, 2013 the U.S department of Energy (DOE) was going to officially enforce a new furnace efficiency standard AFUE efficiency of 90% or more. However, on April 5, 2013, DOE made a statement that the standard would not be enforced.
92% AFUE was set to go into effect for the NE by 2015 but that got changed again.
While the national standard was not finalized individual states had their own requirements.
For example New Jersey chapter 6 heating systems states: " AFUE of 90% for new gas furnaces where not restricted by building design and where cost-effective.
Massachusetts allows 80% but requires a 92% for any of their rebate programs.
None of the energy star programs are 80%.
Just passed by the DOE, all new furnaces regardless of region will have a minimum 95% AFUE by 2028.
At least chose a furnace with an ecm motor.
All HVAC equipment today is mandated ECM whether it's constant torque or constant volume.
Stay away from 2 stage , they run longer and use more fuel.
Many videos about it if you google search.
Few points here
Most furnaces are oversized, this causes comfort issues and short cycling that reduces heat exchanger life.
If the system was properly sized, operating on low fire for a longer duration extends heat exchanger life and provides more comfort with less temperature swings.
Another factor that plays a big part in this is duct sealing. If the ducts are sealed properly there is no issue, but when ducts leak, they push heat into the attic space closing energy, the even more energy loss as the hose has to replace the air by infiltration from the air outside. It is a double loss of energy. If the ducts are leaking then a longer run time causes more gas usage.
Another big factor is improper furnace setup. So few technicians clock the gas meter to ensure proper input BTU with the BTU gas content. There is also a lack of people who perform combustion anylysys. So furnaces that are over firing because the spuds(orifice) was not properly matched will have a large impact on system operation especially at low fire conditions.
If the system is properly sized, properly set uo and a properly sealed duct system there should be no difference. If it takes 60k BTU to heat a space in 10 minutes or 30k BTU to heat the same space in 20 minutes, it's still the same amount of BTU.
2 stage systems are much simpler operation, cheaper parts, and easier to diagnose than modulating furnaces.
Like it or not we will be dealing with 2 stages, modulating and even cold climate heat pumps replacing furnaces.
What good is a high effect system in a home that is not air sealed or a duct system that is not air sealed in a home with an oversized unit in the first place.
That’s nonsense. It’s the exact opposite.
@@rcpmac Here you go the guy installs furnaces for a living. Skip to 5min 32 sec in video to 7min 50 sec
ruclips.net/video/fS2728r5SLI/видео.html
Don't kill the messenger.
@@love2hvac are their companies our here that tackle duct sealing if drywall and framing is in place? Is a tear down the only resort to correcting the issue?
Your a salesman,unless your heating a large home 80/20 costs way less ,less service calls,25 years on my Lennox, do my own maintenance, saved $
Service and maintenance cost is the same. All the the same components expect 90 has plastic inducer fan and a secondary heat exchanger with PVC. All the components and service is the same.
Your confusing 90+ with 90+ modulating. Modulating equipment costs a lot more and does require more maintenance.
A good part of the country does not allow 80% and it is a matter of time before new regulations will make it nationwide.
@@love2hvac heard that’s supposed to go in effect by 2025. Only 90+%efficiency units will be solicited.
Can you give me a ballpark price on each of these gas furnaces please?
I cannot, they vary greatly by brand options and most importantly installing companies.