Also from talking to some killers, with the soloQ changes a lot more matches seem to be a lot more streamline and efficient for survivors generator wise, which could be expected as they have a lot more information. But as a result, a lot of killers have less time to do what they ordinarily would, and so have had a hard time adjusting to the new norm, as a result, they tunnel more often to counteract the quicker repair time on generators as a whole.
Also the sense of time on each role feel different, for killer even tho it took the survs 3 mins to fix 2 gens but for the killer it feels like 1 min while for the surv it feels like 5 min all in all 1 role feels more pressured then the other.
Not really it just feels that way. The only time where the hud would have an impact on killer pressure is when there is 1gen left. As survivors know that a gen was worked on they wont jump on random gen that's all
@@karmiana9908 if you do not have object permeance then this is true . If you do however, then you can make informed decisions based on the generators you remember seeing and at what progress they were when you did see them, just like killers do when they decide on which gens to pressure and which chases to take, thusly survivors can more efficiently pressure the objectives and make sure any actions that are not taken towards the objective helps in the 4v1 as a whole. This is why prove thyself needs a nerf from 15% faster progress per survivor working on the gen to 5%
I really hope that the "No collission" one gets added cuz ever since BT was made basekit, 90% of the time I go for the unhooker and I get body blocked by the person I'm trying to not tunnel. (Imo they do this and I down them, that's not tunneling, it's karma)
So your camping the hook? because you hit the guy who is the unhooker, now he is a one hit down. so the guy with basekit BT tries to body block for his buddy. that's not karma thats just toxic on your part. Hook camping and tunneling are both toxic behaviors that killers due.
@@robskovira5626 you're jumping to conclusions brother. It's somewhat common where you hook someone, walk away for 5 seconds and then see someone going for the unhook. What do you do, ignore them? No!
@@robskovira5626 The word toxic has lost its meaning because people call anything toxic they don't like. That's just entitled and imo entitlement is a way more toxic trait than any playstyle in a videogame could ever be. Camping and tunneling suck, yes, but they're objectively the most efficient and easy ways to win. Being a tryhard is not toxic.
@@robskovira5626 I take hits and bodyblock all the time, regardless if the killer camps. I have had my girlfriend get intercepted 20 meters away and get hit then save me and then i ran forward to take the hit. I wasnt being camped. Dont assume because you lack knowledge
One small thing I forgot to add is that the no collision a survivor receives after being unhooked wouldn't work with self unhooks. This would be unfair for the killer because if the survivor unhooks them self right in front of them they wouldn't be able to do anything. This is different to if another survivor unhooks in front of the killer because then the killer can go for the unhooker. Anyway I hope you enjoy the video and let me know what you think :)
I have not played survivor since about a year because of tunneling, and so I mainly play killer and most often run a devour hope run just to make things interesting. I do not try to tunnel but that's hard to do when the entire survivor squad are using the same character and skin
About Decisive Strike: a big reason why it was nerfed is because of how many players, particularly in squads, would use DS offensively by forcing the killer into situations where they would have to down the unhooked survivor (e.g. body blocking door to shack to prevent killer from downing the survivor who got the rescue). In fact it was found that more often than not, the perk was being abused for purposes not which it was intended and was really only being used to punish killers who were trying not to tunnel, but were instead being antagonized until they finally did. Though necessary a perk, the abuses made the nerf necessary as well.
Definitely bring back the bloodpoint effects of BBQ and We're Gonna Live Forever. Absolutely on the 5 second stun of Decisive. I love the no collision thing. Here's an idea... There are some perks in the game that gain stacks when a survivor is hooked like Hex: Huntress' Lullaby and Dying Light... what if... each time you hook a survivor for the first time... perks like those gain 2 stacks instead of one? Since it gives it on hook instead of unhooking, it won't add to Devour hope AND it'll make some majorly unloved perks a tiny bit more viable and encourage the killer to go after the other survivors, at least, early game.
Buff hex perks that arent good already maybe double the tokens and make it so after 5 huntress lullaby makes skill checks sucess zonas smaller or make the skill checks dimmer and harder to see. Maybe grima embrace used after 4 tokens and so its used twice? (once per 2 first hooks) good idea???
On unique hook incentives: Base Kit “BBQ/PGTW” is the best call I think. They recently made a change where killers reduce progress by 2.5% when they kick gens, so let’s get away from gen kicking and towards hooking. Every unique hook reveals the aura of the highest progressed gen for a minute. If a survivor you have not hooked is working on it, reveal them until they enter 32 meters of you. Possible addition: if you kick the highlighted gen within a minute, you reduce that gen’s repair speed by 20-30%. The main reason for tunneling is easy chases/kills. There also is not a lot of time for newer killers to kill unless they’re running several slowdowns, which leaves them no aura reveals. Providing information to the killer will incentivize them to act on that information.
i mean it’s a pretty good idea and it would probably stop the tunneling, but it is just giving the killer another buff, that they don’t need. It should be something that STOPS tunneling and not just making it harder for the killer or not the best option but still there
@@Alex-wf2tj killer DOES need a buff though. M1 killer base kit that is. If the base kit of every killer is brought up we can nerf more of the top tier stuff. My motto is to over buff and then fix things rather than over nerf.
You absolutely hit the nail on the head with this one! I'm a killer main and love these ideas. It is true, at least i feel that way, that CoH and DH as well as the MedKit META since 2021 have made pressuring multiple survivors less and less viable. One thing i'd like to add is that killers with timed abilities get often countered by DH which can not be used if you are in deep wound. Countering the most used and still very good perk DH by just hitting the Borrowed time hit seems to save more time because why hit other survivors 3 times if you can just easy 1 hit and after that 2nd hit the 1st hook survivor? I'm a Blight main and really want his and other killers tunneling effectiveness to slow so nerfing these survivor perks that insentive tunneling, buffing DS so it ACTUALLY hurts Blight and Nurse players as well as insentivising going for multiple survivors to pressure just like it was in 2018 are fantastic changes. ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!!! KEEP IT UP!
@@anitoancognita7060 one really fun non meta build that I started playing recently is spirit fury enduring brutal strength hubris on billy with the purple glove add ons and then you overheat your chainsaw and you shred thru pallets it’s really fun
5 second DS stun disproportionately hurts non-meta killers though and nerfing tunneling would gut the best killer strategy without fixing the main issue, gen speed. The devs can’t nerf every gen slow perk AND nerf tunneling and expect people to still play killer.
Overall pretty good changes. However disabling items to me is going after the symptoms of a problem rather than the source. Many items, especially medkits are way overtuned. We need them toned down, not a built in feature to turn them off. Also I feel the number one main reason people are tunneling so much now wasn't addressed which is gen speed. Bad map design is the main thing causing gens to go too fast to where killers feel required to tunnel. You touched on the other reason which was healing being too efficient alone though. CoH self healing and the power of medkits needs to go, it makes hits not meaningful at slowing the survivors down. Killers don't go for 12 hook games because they aren't viable. Give them the time to make chases and they will make them as they currently do not.
" main reason people are tunneling" , I think regardless of other reasons, the core issue is that tunneling is the best way to win a match. If you want to see less tunneling you have to make it a worse strategy than other options. For example you mention gen speed as a reason people tunnel. This isn't quite correct, if you made gens take 4x longer to complete, killers would win most matches, but tunneling would still be the best strategy. If you made gens take 1/2 as long to complete, killers would lose most matches, but tunneling would still be the best strategy. The worst part of the problem is that nothing is better at getting you a win than tunneling. Sure you could give blood points or other rewards to incentivize chasing other players, but if a player wants to win (get 4 kills) tunneling remains the best option. So like the video says, you need to make attacking a player off the hook is bad, and you need to wait till they work a gen or try to heal etc. But you also need to make sure its not possible to abuse the protections, which is why he suggests making them lose collision while they have protection too. Once you make tunneling no longer the best strategy, I think then you can look at healing, gen speed etc. Healing and gen speed are certainly factors, but the core issue is that even if healing is made terrible, or gens made slow, tunneling would still be the best way to win if you make no other changes. You might incentivize some players to not do it for fun etc. but it doesn't change things enough and tunneling would still be the best strategy.
@@Zaszz1 I mean you mostly said everything I was already saying. "Once you make tunneling no longer the best strategy, I think then you can look at healing, gen speed etc." Except I disagree here, it needs to be simultaneously, not after. Currently there a many cases where tunneling is required because of the games balance. Where we disagree is that you think people are "mostly" tunneling because it's the easiest route. I think the main reason people tunnel is because they feel forced to because of how bad the games balance is. Most people want to win playing normally and not tunneling. How do we know this? Look at before MMR and CoH released as an example. How prevalent was tunneling back then? Way, way less, and no it wasn't just because of DS. The reason it was way less then is because tunneling was less necessary as injures actually slowed the game down more since self healing wasn't so strong and because we had more slow down perks. On top of this back before MMR you would be getting much more relaxed and less sweaty games to where tunneling didn't feel as necessary if they wanted to win. Currently there are many games at high MMR where tunneling is required to win. I do agree though that tunneling being the most efficient way is a problem is general though.
I play killer a lot and I will say that the way the game is as of now you kinda have to tunnel to even have a chance if you go for 12 hooks gens get done way to fast and it's made it almost impossible to win games normally this is what I have seen through the new updates
Obviously is biased but I have to disagree here, you do not need to tunnel to win most matches, the biggest issue is that people have gotten used to it, stopped thinking how to make people behave. I tested this by playing addonless and perkless + no tunneling or camping, obviously this has a giant demerit, but the balance sits around 2.89 kills after 4 months, I am not the best killer, far from it in fact, but with the amount of tools killers have at their disposal to slow a game to a crawl, the biggest issue is people losing the first chase, not giving it up and then just losing 1 to 3 gens because of stubbornness.
Was crazy to open Otz's stream today and see him watching your vid live!! First hour of the 07/03/2023 stream! Hope this leads to the channel getting the attention it deserves
I think tunnelling is a by-product of some even larger problem in the game. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but I can tell you now that if you look at any professional competitive dbd match (without op killers and add-ons), tunnelling is happening consistently, and it is because it is the only thing that killers can do to try and win, because otherwise they'd lose. I think this larger problem could possibly be how survivors can easily win if the killer doesn't tunnel through gen-rushing. Think of how much less pressure the killer generates when chasing someone who isn't dead on hook, compared to someone who is. I am unsure how to fix this though, because giving any buff to the unhooked survivor will just drop the kill rate of killers and the overall amount of players who play this game, but not giving any buff will just not really address the tunnelling problem. I think it's a catch 22 in my opinion :) .
The problem is fairly cut and dry. A Injured survivor on death hook and a healthy survivor who has never been hooked, offer the exact same amount of Generator pressure. The only survivor who cannot create generator pressure is a Downed or a Dead survivor, and one of those things is temporary in the match, the other is not.
I think you are a bit misled. Sure, it does not matter if a survivor is on death hook or not, it doesn't impact their generator pressure. But if that survivor on death hook is tunnelled out, that makes it one less person able to do gens. Think about it. If I was to load into a match as a killer, and I hooked everyone fairly, so two hooks for every person, assuming everyone had medkits/boons (meaning a survivor doesn't have to get off the gen to heal that survivor), that is still four people able to do gens. The generator pressure was not reduced as the game progressed. Therefore, it makes it a much more viable strategy to tunnel someone out at the start, because that makes it one person less doing gens. And with prove thyself being a thing, tunnelling is much more viable than playing fair.
@@jimmy-j6465 and i think you misunderstanding what i mean XD.Our points are the same, You have explained yourself in more words the exact point i was trying to get across with my above post,which was since a Death Hook survivor and a no Hook survivor offer the same gen pressure, that yes spreading out hooks has been now applying less and less pressure, due to the fact Survivor perks keep making them more self sufficient, and because of that targeting one person to remove them from the game is becoming a stronger and stronger option.
@@njrk97 Oh yeah, I think I was a bit confused with what you were saying. I interpreted what you said as the KILLER generating pressure, rather than what the survivors are capable of generating.
@@jimmy-j6465 I think ur missing the point that tunneling is just a real asshat move. If you play survivor often, especially if u solo que by yourself or with a friend its very hard to get a coordinated team. I've had days were I or a friend have been tunneled out starting at 5 gens when there wasn't even gen pressure from the other survivors bc Meg was too busy hiding in a corner 😭 Even at Iridescent 1, I get a lot of survivors who are basically useless and on top of that the killer spends 20 minutes tunneling me and chasing thru every loop just to secure a single kill when it most likely would have been more efficient to switch between players. I understand the dilemma killers are sometimes put in , but that strat is just real shitty to other players. At that point your not being forced into it as you claim, but actively choosing to tunnel someone out at 5 gens to make it easy on urself. Ur coping.
In situations as a killer main whenever a survivor tries to take a hit for the person who unhooked them I will usually hit them and then chase them. Usually they are denying me a first hit on someone else and by hitting the survivor blocking, the endurance is basically a first health state. This forces the survivor to decide if they should get tunneled or let me chase someone else
Oh yeah if a surv uses their unhook endurance aggressively to take hits, I’m hard punishing that by "tunneling" them every single time. It’s an anti tunnel mechanic, not an offensive mechanic so I punish those types of plays
I thought also about the Idea that Killers get Buffs the more hooks they do on different Survivor like debuff for Survivors (Gen- and Healspeed) if you get as an example 4 different Hooks. Maybe Grim Embrace as Base Kit would be a really good Idea also
idk there’s already a scourge hook that decreases gen speed for survivors hooked on them so i wouldn’t make them BK instead i’d focus on making it easier for survivors who haven’t been hooked based off of how many hooks there are so if the killer is tunneling there’s a surv with like 175% gen speed 7-8 minutes into the game
@@deadinside44123 Thats just... way too much. People use the word tunneling so freely even if the killer isnt that it has no meaning at all in dbd and i dont think it should be messed with too much. The killer should not be punished for recognizing that an unhooked survivor has made a mistake like tapping a gen before healing up, running into them, anything like that.
@@gamingcantina9157 if i run into a survivor that just got off hook i literally go out of my way to go for someone else. yeah 175% is way too much but then again that’d be on ONE person. perks like that one scourge hook already promote not going for the same person by giving you buffs if you go for everyone so i don’t get why there shouldn’t be a (maybe basekit) perk that lets you do better on gens if the killer is tunnleling
@@deadinside44123 That would just result in insane gen rushes as even if the killer ISN'T tunneling. If a survivor is avoiding the killer to focus gens by letting their team goes for unhooks they will get max gen speed regardless of the killer tunneling or not. As Decisive Strike has proven that tunneling punishments for the killers will always be exploited by survivors and will used against non tunneling killers regardless.
There's something you missed in the video. One other reason killers tunnel is because of the gen related perks and items survivors have and if they wanted to they could a gen in 27 - 47 seconds, couple that with the nerfs to the gen regression perks we have like Pop or Hex: ruin and you get teams being able to gen rush hard and both new or experienced killers being left in the dirt. As an actual killer main, I hate it when people make "solutions" but instead are buffing one side while not changing what majorly influences the behavior. While I agree with some points, please try to see more from our perspective. Ps. Thanks for telling me Doc, and damn I didn't think it's was that bad.
Recently killers are just assholes. They'll tunnel 1 survivor and let everyone else go free just to vent out anger after their last game. If you can't kill survivors without tunneling then maybe change up the build or get better. Face camping benefits survivors for gens so I don't get why they do it as a killer that's not Bubba. I like getting a hit on each survivor to I guess play with them since it is a game. You get more xp/BP this way and you get chases which is the fun of a killer.
@@RVFFICA I hate when Survivor Main that use second chance and meta perks say killers "get good" yeah ok I wanna see you win without your meta stuff, it's not about skill, it's who brings the strongest shit and the winning tactics.
@@RVFFICA Guess what whenever you remove all breathing room from a Killers kit they have to do tactics like this to still be viable. If you want killers to go for chases you have to give them incentive for chases. BUT every perk that did so was Killed. Pop, Ruin, Thanatophobia, Eruption, Dead man's Switch, perks that let killer apply gen pressure and encouraged chases were effectively removed while new gen rush perks were added. Gen times went from 54 seconds to 47 seconds average the fastest gen times dropped from 36 seconds to 27 seconds. But killers were not given tools to speed up chase ether. Infact survivors KEPT their gen extension perks. They can now easily extend a chase past 47 seconds with just a single perk.
There are times when a little tunnel is required, though. It's something Killers can do to turn a match that has gotten away from them. Tunnelling at 4-5 gens is shitty, but if you're at 1-2 and you've only had say 3 hooks, why should you not have anything to swing the tide?
@@robbanks7483 Sometimes, for sure. But there are games I've gotten to 1-2 gens left, had everyone hooked once and been forced to turn the game back in my favour
The real issue is if you get rid of tunneling, you essentially destroy the killer meta. Killer would need significantly more than these changes tbh. If every change in this video got in, tunneling would still be meta because to actually challenge a coordinated team is impossible any other way unless you're Nurse, Blight, or Spirit
We are in accord The slowdown from loosing 1 person is just to valuable And for the not to great killer players it is also a guaranteed return on investment If you managed to to hook a dude 1 without spending 5 minutes then a second time is also easy While in a coordinating team they might just send their "dedicated runner" that spend his last 150 hours of dbd without touching a gen and just run killers.
My suggestion to your last change would be that this "endurance timer pause while in chase" is disabled during endgame collapse/when all generators are powered. I imagine it would be quite frustrating for killers if a survivor can just bolt it for the exit gates after the unhook while being literally invulnerable... And if their teammates are also healthy and blocking for them everyone gets out with absolutely zero concern for someone dying. It's a great idea, but it would need this addition in order to prevent survivors abusing the system. Otherwise I very much like your suggestions and would welcome much of these changes with open arms!
Maybe circle of healing could highlight injured survivors in its radius and only allows the survivor to self heal for 50% of his health. Beyond that threshold you'll need someone else to finish the heal
Play with your food basekit reward. 1% haste for every new survivor hooked, up to 4% and an extra 1% haste for hooking all survivors one time in a row. Hooking someone else a second time before completion breaks the streak and removes the accumulated buffs.
@@EdwinCristobal it's conscientious of items and gen speeds. You can lose the reward if you feel like you have to tunnel to gain back pressure. For the pressure you gain from speed, the survivors are more incentivized to help stall chases with protection hits/saves etc. Winning pressure back. Yeah, maybe games go more in killers favor over all, but everyone gets to play a game that feels like a game.
We can’t just cut off playstyles, at the end of the day tunneling, slugging and camping are valid options for killers, sometimes it’s necessary to have any chance against a good team. These things aren’t inherently game breaking either, and survivors have freedom to play however they want. In my opinion increasing stun times is a pretty irritating solution.
I agree their valid options for killers. I don’t think killers should feel bad for using any of these strategies. But the truth is these strategies can make the game unfun for survivors. Like you said, they can be necessary when versing a good team so I tried to think of changes that make it so the killer doesn’t necessarily need to tunnel in order to win against good survivors. Hopefully this would lead to different strategies that are more fun for both sides to be the most viable. In short, my problem isn’t that tunnelling exists, it’s that rn tunnelling is much better then almost all other strategies.
I now make it my mission to waste as much time as humanely possible in a match if a killer decides to tunnel and camp at 4-5 gens. My favorite is when said killer angrily types in endgame about me just “refusing to die.” It sure makes me happy to know that no one had fun!! 😊
I notice that many survivors tend to get too much scared of the killer, and while the killers is tunneling one survivor, the others just keep hiding instead of doing the gens.
i dont think you mentioned the introduction of mmr as a reason for the increase of tunneling,as this is based on kills and nothing else,tunelling one person out gets you a kill and makes it easier to get more
Tell me again why years ago we knew self care was super broken and overpowered because you could self heal without wasting another team-mates time and now everyone knows that and uses medkits and then they add a perk like CoH that takes 1 out of 12 perk slots on the survivor team and gives them just a bit slower medkit. How does that make any sense.
i think your wrong but if your right you could then pick someone up on a ledge forcing them to fall when they use ds so that would mean they fall for almost or all the stun duration?
@@blessedfox9751 i think I'm right but the stun duration starts as soon as the animation does so it does take up some time. Maybe not a full 2 seconds but the stun Is still awful and it's a bad perk either way.
You have to look at gen speeds too, I've had matches where the literal first chase lasts not even a minute and one gets done. With how much cheaper the bloodpoint items are survivors are stacked with the strongest toolboxes and items and gen rushing has become even more of a problem. Gen defense perks while ok still do barley anything to a cooridinated team. Which in turn makes tunneling an even more viable strategy. Gen protection perks get nerfed and survivors get more gen rushing perks which just makes it worse every chapter, some weaker than others but again well coordinated swfs in high ranks make them oppressive. you stay in chase with a survivor just one split second too long and you lose 3 gens. Another thing that happens is gens fly so fast survivors 3-Gen themselves and depending on the killer, now makes the game a 20 minute stand off and is miserable for both sides. I want incentive to chase, without feeling that I can't because if I do I automatically lose. Killers are so spread thin on managing time and juggling so much stuff that it makes the whole experience miserable and the only way to win is to play as dirty as possible. Part of me wishes that more people would play killer and actually see things from our perspective from time to time when it comes to "solutions" especially in the higher ranks.
Gen speed is not the issue, if you focus on each survivor at a time the gens will pop,this game is a 1vs4 so you should split pressure instead of focusing on one survivor at the start
@@Insanity-vv9nn huh? "Instead of focusing on one survivor at the start" then what the hell am I supposed to do at the start of the round? Only chase them off gens like a cranky old man? lol Gens are an issue and still are an issue, 90 seconds didn't add anything when 2 pop in less than 40. I feel all you read was the first line and then commented.
I think in addition to these wonderful suggestions, some killers feel the need to tunnel because of the insane anti-pressure some survivor items can bring, particularly Brand New Parts and medkits. With the cheaper cost of items in the bloodweb, these sorts of things are a lot more common, and they need to be brought down to a level that’s more feasible for weaker killers to deal with in addition to these changes.
These add-ons are in the game for a very long time and were used way before the tunneling and camping phenomenon increased in frequency. They are not the direct cause of this happening. It's because of perk changes and because of perks like Circle of Healing being added. Boons, seems to me, are the worst when it comes to balance changes. I would focus on that, mainly CoH that truly turned trials on their head.
@@Ehrill942 Its like they said in the video back when ds was cool the risk for tuneling was reasonable just like how older regression perks made it more of a risk to bring brand parts and strong medkits because all that time spent could kill your generador progress. Now that the generador regresión perks are not as cool anymore there is less of a risk to not bring brand Parks and medkits because generador stay longer alive.
I've seen a bunch of good ideas to help prevent tunneling: One I'll mention is the streamer TrU3Ta1ent's and that is the Suffering Meter. The more you make all 4 survivors suffer through hits and hooks, the higher the meter goes. I believe the idea behind it was to expand on the win condition for killers. If 4 Survivors escape, but the Killer got every one to death hook, does that mean it was a total loss? Absolutely not. Another idea to incentivize Killers to leave the hook: After getting a unique hook, the Killer can see auras of generators that have progress on them. They can't see how much progress or if they're currently being repaired, but it would at least give Killers an idea as to where they should divert their attention. I'm on board with all of these ideas, especially the CoH one. It's the most frustrating to deal with as Killer because it's the only Boon that benefits from being set up in a place where the Killer has no business in going. I'd remove the ability to Self-care, increase the healing speed a little bit (like maybe 10-20%), and allow other Survivors to see your Aura if you're within the Boon's range. It should still be worth a perk slot, but shouldn't offer unlimited self-heals for the Survivor.
I'm sorry I don't care about bloodpoints or suffering meters or any nonsense like that. If all 4 people escape then I lost and I might DC just because I don't want those blood points. For me this I think is dead on arrival.
@@xeticus5435 You might not, but is that to say that other people don't? The idea is to reward Killers "playing nice" by giving them rewards and making it the more effective playstyle compared to tunneling out a Survivor early on in the match. Having the Suffering Meter alone won't fix the issue, but having it in combination with other things to promote spreading out hooks and punish tunneling one Survivor early on? I think it could help.
@@saintamici9735 The only thing that will help is if killers have a fair chance of winning if they get their first kill later. Right not now if you can tunnel out someone when only 1 or 2 gens are done you have a very good chance at a 4k. If you don't kill someone until only 1 gen is done then you will almost certainly lose. Make changes to the game so that killers have a good chance of winning late and there will be less pressure on them to tunnel to win.
@@xeticus5435 Exactly. Hence why the Suffering Meter shouldn't be the only thing we implement. That's why I suggested the change of seeing generators with progress on them for every unique hook. Along with other ideas (I've seen gen speed repair increases for remaining Survivors, basekit NOED, and a bunch of others). It's a problem that needs to be tackled from multiple angles. Make spreading out hooks the most effective way to play the game AND give the Killers the tools to do so while simultaneously making the "tunneling 1 survivor early on" strategy the least effective way to win for Killers.
Medkits should not be able to heal yourself completely. Do you know how when you're in the dying state in the ground, it says get help and doesn't pass 95%. Medkits should do the same. Medkits should let you do 95% of a heal, then get someone else to finish it off the same with circle of healing.
I like the idea of that change to circle but also think it should display the aura of injured survivors in its radius if that's the case to keep it from disproportionately impacting soloq
My idea has been to make a hook apply a new status effect to you, similar to broken that would not allow you to heal yourself through any means, requiring another survivor to heal you. Could be a bit overkill but medkits would still have there place if you need to heal after a chase or use it more selflessly on another survivor and it would really encourage that unhooker to stay and heal.
No I use to main survivor then switched to killer. I immediately noticed how much harder killer is to play. You have to tunnel because Behavior has buffed survivors so much meanwhile leaving killers in the dust. With perks, broken loops, shitty maps and now solo survivors being able to see what other survivors are doing, killers have many more things to deal with. The amount of times I’ve had to simple deal with a map with so many pallets and windows is annoying on its own 😂 if they want killers to stop tunneling then stop buffing survivors and give many killers the buffs they do desperately need.
I think you’re right…but there’s the problem that most killers cannot keep up anymore, survivors are getting really strong and every 3 perks killers gain, survivors get like, 3 or 6, either way I don’t think they needed to rework a perk so that the survivors don’t get tunneled, the game is getting dependent on the perks, if DBD wants to solve these type of problems they need to rework the game itself, I think, at least, that reworking a perk won’t solve this at all, survivors only have 4 slots of perks. If DBD wants to be a balanced game, it should work without the perks, like, if you play a match that no one has perks, the “anti-tunnel” still works.
Killer main here, and let me just say you knocked this one out of the park. DS is never scary, any time someone runs from the hook to a locker, regardless of if I was intending to chase them or just hit them and force them to mend while I went after someone else, I will purposefully pull them out to eat it so it isn't available at any actually useful time. Personally, I believe that the change to make the endurance effect not tick down while in a chase sounds very nice, though a couple of killers could cheese it by either moonwalking or using stealth to not start the chase (inb4 this causes Pig to get nerfed again lmao) That, and the part where you mentioned the devs having to be careful with any buffs they give survivors because there are so many SWF players or content creators with 5k+ hours who can and will abuse it. Kinda sucks for people like me who never play survivor because a lot of this that would have helped me get into learning the role have been removed or nerfed because of those kinds of players. :c
To fix tunneling they need to update the game to make it so when the second survivor hooked is also the first survivor who was hooked. A fist emerges from the killers screen and punches the person playing in the face.
You guys do not realize how weak killers now are. Instead of buffing survivor's anti-tunnel perks it's better to buff killers. That will remove the NECESSITY to tunnel to actually win. Ofc you can win against potatoes who do not do gens. But when you go against skilled players with 4 adrenaline + 4 sprint bursts (dh) or against window of opportunities. They just loop you for ~3 gens before first hit. Or drop every pallet, so you can't use your power at all (as oni). You can say that I'm just weak as a killer. But. It's scary easy to win as survivor's. If at least 2 of them do gens P.s. I'm a survivor main 😶🌫️
@@Agaroth3010 it would be cool if trapper had as a basekit this: • 5-7% haste for 5 seconds after placing a trap (like muffin addon) • at least half of the traps in his hands after spawning in a match (kinda like a green bag). • in a case if the trap is closed by the survivor it takes 3 minutes to open itself again (like iri addon). With visual indicator when it would open (like it's aura intencety) so trapper could use this information to trap survivor's, who would think that it:s safe. • rework of add-ons That would definitely help him to get a first chase faster and would make him more stable overall.
@@Agaroth3010 I also think bhvr could add the FIFTH perk slot for killers (maybe for survs too). It would shake up the meta and give killers more variety (or not). Because they kinda forced to have a 2-4 perks for gen slowdown. And if you want to play with other perks you can get literally zero to little value from it instead of extra time in a match from gen slowdown. Honestly I think that would NOT help at all because killers could just bring not 4, but 5 gen slowdown. It would be absolutely a pain for survs. And since there are 4 time more survs bhvr can not sacrifice their survs community even more.. It also could be cool if we had an 1vs1 event. Only chases. With a hatch spawning after some time. You play 2 rounds as surv, then 2 as killer. Or something like that
I think instead of changing DS for all killers we need to look at the reason some killers don't care about DS like nurse and Blight. Maybe removing their charges when they are hit by DS will help with this issue as 5 seconds isn't much to them but is horrible for low tier killers.
@@darnelhays7999 I think it's important to accept not all killers are the same. It's sad to say that comparing Nurse to Trapper isn't going to work. Either behaviour makes changes to narrow the gap (which I think considering how nurse works isn't going to happen) or perks need to affect them differently Unless you have a suggestion?
I think the main issue is that you dont feel like you’re doing good as the killer unless you kill someone/ tunnel them out to make it easier. Killer needs genuine pats on the back from the entity so even when they aren’t doing the greatest, they feel like a powerhouse. They need special/new sfx for hooking, hitting, getting a mori, kicking a gen, breaking a pallet/wall and maybe even allowing killer players to grind bloodpoints with bots so they can grasp tracking and listening for audio queues. If you just throw them in the deep end with real people you’ll never see the killer numbers go up or their playstyles change. BHVR needs to hold new killer players hands to show them it CAN be fun. Killer is honestly a slowly dying role because why would you want to get bullied when you can experience the most goofy gameplay with your friends? You gotta hype the new players up and make them WANT to play killer. With this the lower brackets will stop imitating what their favorite content creators say is good and start forming their own playstyles regardless of the outcome, BHVR has incentivized killing over everything else and if the killer gets nothing they become extremely discouraged and will start playing to win rather than thinking if the other side is having fun with them. Thats why we see the same handful of killer in our games, their favorite slasher/icon might be in the game but if all they take are “Ls” why wouldn’t they just pick up the better character in general so they can start to win.
Yes! I really like the ideas of disabling items for some time after being unhooked. And making circle of healing only heal teammates. That way survivors don't get healed in less than 20 seconds. Killers know survivors heal so fast after being unhooked so its a big reason they tunnel.
Bring DS back to 5 seconds and pop back to 25% total. Both perks didn't need the latest nerfs they got , one encourages getting hooks while the other discourages tunneling.
I had a somewhat similar idea i posted on the subreddit about six months ago. (It didn't take off at all.) The idea is to make a type of bounty system. It would be randomly assigned to a survivor at the start of the match just like the obsession and would show up on the UI. Unlike the obsession though it would not be visible to the survivors and it would be independently assigned. Once the killer hooks the obsession the next bounty is assigned to a different survivor who has been hooked less times than the one just hooked. Or, in the event that there are none, to just another survivor with the same number of hooks. When the killer hooks a bounty they get some blood points, a haste effect, and killer instinct on the next bounty for a few seconds and with each consecutive bounty hook the rewards will increase. The numbers would all need to be messed with the get them balanced of course but the philosophy being to make not tunneling viable for people who do not want to do it but feel like they have to because it's strong. I think people need to accept that if a killer wants to camp/tunnel just to be an asshole they're going to do it and there's no way to stop that because of the nature of the power distribution in the game. This gives those people an easier means to both find and traverse the map to get to their next target. I think that's actually one of the biggest barrier to getting killers to play more fun. I have this guy right here that I can chase. I don't want to have to spend time walking around the map looking for a new survivor. That's just boring and who knows how long it'll take to find a new one? With this, I have a good idea of where they are because of killer instinct and I can book it out of there to give the other survivors time to rescue. I also think there's value in making it a dedicated mechanic with a visual on the UI. I think it'll make it stick in players heads more and going for bounties exclusively will totally end up being a thing some people do. It also takes away the need to have to make decisions. I think that's another hidden reason people tunnel. They just want to kind of turn their brain off and play some mindless DBD and don't want to have to think about the macro gameplay. It's kind of similar to camping in that way.
In my opinion, DS should be reworked into becoming a basekit buff for survivors: If nobody else was hooked since you were unhooked, you were hooked less than 40 non-chase seconds ago, you have not taken a protection hit, you are not in endgame and the killer pick you up, you get a 5 sec stun DS no matter what actions you've taken. It sounds specific, but it should avoid false positives and false negatives as much as possible, and should all be stuff that the game can already look out for. Last hook is pretty obvious; if someone else got hooked in between, you're not being tunneled, so the tunneling protection goes away. Hooked less than 40 seconds ago is similarly obvious, if you go down this fast after being unhooked, then it is fair of the killer to leave you slugged and give a chance for a teammate to come pick you up, and the timer only going down while you're not being chased seems pretty self explanatory. Taking a protection hit deactivating the basekit DH window is a way to prevent bully squads from trying to abuse it. And endgame deactivating DH is just like current DH being deactivated. On the killer side of things, I do love the speed boost after hook idea. It'd help out low mobility killers a lot, and most of the killers good enough not to need tunneling often have their own mobility options, so it definitely sounds to me like it's striking at a fundamental design trouble that the game's had for a while. It could also create a kind of "oh crud, I should try and hide while the killer is invigorated otherwise I'm gonna go down fast" moment that could add a lot of texture and variety to the average game. A bit of an ebb and flow to the killer's power level, if you will.
@@Supernautus Did you forget hook bombing is a thing? Lol it's going to be abused the same way the stupid suggestions of if a killer camps the entity won't progress or they can't use their power.
@@XenoVT Sure, but hook bombing happens the instant the killer hooks, the hook won't move that instant, this could trigger if the killer has been camping the hook for 20 seconds or more and isn't in chase. If someone rushes to unhook instantly you can get a free hit while they try, or even a grab
My my first thought, as someone who only watches the game now. Would be to give a speed boost for repairing gens if one survivor has been hooked atleast 2x more than then rest. So that if killer focuses one down, it literally makes the game faster and more likely they'd only be getting 1 kill. Said survivor could spend time annoying killer I guess.
Ngl some of these changes already make killer even harder to play I would recommend just base-kit pre-patched bbq and chili bp insensitive. It’s already hell to play killer and having the decisive strike would probably incentivize slugging or tunneling even more
The problem with any perk that punishes for tunneling is that a powerful punishment CAN and WILL be abused. The dude with a DS, OTR and Unbreakable will get aggressive and waste your time. They still will not use their item, for simple reason - they don’t care, they only take the aggro to let their build work. This was the case pre-6.1, this is the case now, this will be the case later. And in any case these are all just band-aids. The real reason as to why people tunnel in the first place lyes in maps and spawns. You get into a game, 30 seconds later tinkerer procs. You load onto a big/strong map, you find a survivor, you enter a chase, you hook a survivor. By this time over a minute usually passes on softcap MMR - unless you’re a nurse or the chased survivor messed up terribly. In such a scenario up to 3 gens can be popped, leaving you with ONE hook on TWO gens - and you’ve done fairly well. If you don’t get rid of a survivor at that point - you are doomed. Unless you play nurse - and in this case no amount of anti-tunnel will stop you anyway. No amount of band-aids will stop tunneling unless the core issue is solved.
The main problem I have with tunneling, is my experience has been purely toxic on the killers part. Getting hit on hook and other things has been to common for me. I don’t mind tunneling, it’s at least interactive unlike camping, but it doesn’t help there’s no punishment for it.
Why should it be punished? its not like Tunneling is against some rules or something. I agree that its overall to rewarding to Tunnel one survivor out. When i play killer i love to hook the same survivor twice because i simply know that many Survivors Tilt and go overboard on protecting the Near Death survivor even when i dont aim to tunnel them out. Its simple tactics
@@DezKaiZer Then I am sure you like boring games. I'm sure it gets really boring when a survivor holds W the whole game, since it's their equivalent of tunnelling or camping.
@@DezKaiZer What part of it makes no sense? Being a toxic boring shit as Killer is going to make Survivors want to be toxic boring shits. Perhaps not worry about the 4k every game, yeah? :)
if theres an unhook and you return to the hook area and see an injured survivor and a healthy survivor isnt just common sense to go for the injured one?..the idea that you should be punished for trying to kill a survivor as 'killer' is ludicrus
To the Anti-tunnel perks, i think buffing them is good, but i would change the conspicuous actions, unhooking and healing other survivors shouldn't be a conspicuous actions, but any use of flashlights, crouching, and body blocking should be, also if you don't run away you should lose your anti tunnel perks faster, basically if you try to use the anti-tunnel perks aggressively, looking to get aggro from the killer to get use of your anti-tunnel perks you loose them, that way we could have 5 or even 6 second DS, and OtR, BT and other Endurance effects except DH working if you are deep wounded, making it that you could easily need to get hit 3 times to get down if you are chased from the hook, but you loose all of that if you try to force the killer to chase you, oh, but BT shouldn't be a thing in the endgame collapse
A little thing that must also be done to kill tunneling is doing some changes to some killers For example Deathslinger can shoot a unhooked survivors and wait out the bt while the person can’t go anywhere
that would be your teammate failing to body block, deathslinger can't shoot right away cause deathslinger can't hold you for 10secs the chains will break!, thus you had time to begin with also your teammates can go through the chains and help it break. deathslinger can't put in dying state unless he m1's. more importantly get tunneling perks thats what they're for or do survivors require free bees on everything since 3 lives isnt enough.
Here's a fun perk idea. When you are put into a dying state, the perk activates. If another survivor be put into a dying state you will automatically revive back out of your dying state. Perk name: backstabber It might stop some Killers for just knocking down to survivors all the time
i feel tunneling is the best way to get pressure, you can get free hits from body block, and pressuring the team to keep their weakest chain to stay alive thus giving more resources than the killer that don't tunnel
Even if you dont tunnel someone out hooking someone twice and bring him to death hook is a good way to panic the survivors and force them to "guard" the death hook survivor
I don't think tunneling is a problem, it's just the Killer rushing their objective, which makes it the equivalent of gen rushing. Survivors are gonna gen rush because it is their objective to do gens, and Killers are gonna tunnel because it is their objective to get kills. DbD is treated like a competitive game instead of a casual game like it was supposed to be, and so people are going to tunnel because it will always be good for the Killer. Unless you give the Survivor damage immunity until the Killer hooks another Survivor after they were unhooked, Killers will always tunnel. If BHVR did something like that, then gens would have to be blocked while a single Survivor is on a hook to compensate. This change would lead to its own problems in general. I just don't think there will ever be a solution to tunneling except just don't let the Killer catch you ever, and loop them for 5 gens.
What about a base kit Grim Embrace to the killers, currently not a really popular perk. Them change this perk to make the effect even strong, like BT does today.
I feel that none of these really solve the problem, it's just like we're trying to distract the killer from tunneling with a carrot on a stick. We need a change that makes tunneling NOT the best choice. The DbD board game does this well. Survivors share a pool of 8 hook states and when it's depleted, they all lose the game together. Most interestingly though: The first time a UNIQUE survivor is hooked, that counts as 2 hook states (they have a '+1 hook stage' token next to their player, which is used up when hooked). So if the killer spreads out their hooks across all unique survivors, they can win in only 4 hooks. The Board Game is balanced around different numbers, but we could just scale those numbers up for Dead by Daylight. Something like, 10 hook stages total, where the first unique hook per survivor count as 2 instead of 1. The fastest that the killer can win is in 6 hook actions (first 4 on unique survivors are doubled to 8. +2 more after that on anyone = 10). The SLOWEST that a killer could win is by hooking the same survivor over and over again, which would take 9 hooks!!! You'd better believe that five gens and the exit gates get completed in that time, so the killer NEEDS to spread out their hooks in order to win. Alternatively/Additionally, since it's important that the game doesn't end for all survivors because someone else was playing badly, each survivor could have 1 "safety" hook stage for themselves (think of this as the two tick marks next to each survivor). After the killer accrues 10 or 9 or 8 hook stages (up for discussion) cumulatively, they can kill any of the survivors that they hook next, but only if they've already been hooked once. This means that to kill ANYONE, the killer needs to spread out their hooks. And for a survivor to BE KILLED they must have been hooked at least once before. The killer can still gets kills and win without hooking everyone first, but it'll take more total hook actions to do that. It's "not efficient." For this to work smoothly, bots would need to replace survivors who disconnect. Otherwise there would be survivors that are dead before 10 total hook stages.
These are good ideas. CoH messed up the game and reduced the pressure trough hooks by a lot. I personally would like the change if CoH would act more as a AoE Botany Knowledge or other healing boost instead of infinite and fast self heal for everyone. Also the BT change is also kind of nice, I could accept it not going down during chase IF the collision is removed. DS on the other hand.... I personally think it should have another condition: If another survivor is hooked, DS deactivates. Its an anti tunnel perk. If the killer downs someone else and hooks them, then he manages to down you again, thats very far from tunneling. DS even as it is used offensively and to pull of saves in the killer face. This shouldnt be the case. If DS deactivates if another survivor is hooked, then its fine to raise the stun back to 5 sec.
These changes are great, but if the one with the time paused would come into the game also the Part with no collision must be used, cause if lets say you got a down near a hooked Person and the hooked Person gets unhooked the could bofyblock you still with endurance and you have to hit them if you want the hook on the other guy.
Honestly from what it sounds like, it seems that tunneling is a skill issue on the survivors part and not on the killer. If you just get better instead of rage quitting when your tunneled out you’d probably last longer in the chase.
I think DS needs three buffs. 1. Extend DS to 80 secs with paused timers for being in chase immediately after unhooked. 2. The level of DS is indicative of the stun time stating at 5secs for level one and being 7 secs or level three. 3. Killers can't use their power for so many seconds after getting hit with DS. This is primarily to counter nurse and blight.
@@andreasul2608 I could if I wanted to, but I have enough survivor experience to know that it feels like crap when you get off the hook and are the next one hooked again. It's not necessarily breaking rules, but it keeps it more fun for the other team, which is something I do value. Also, did you watch the vid?? It's specifically talking about how this is a problem.
@@Finzombie I get that, but should'nt one use every advantage to fullfill the goal of your intended role? I mean, one doesn't become the best by doing charity. I get it if it was a glitch exploit or something similar like that, cause that would be cheating. But to me it just feels like playing a game of football, but since it feels bad for the other team to end up in offside we'll just break up the offside line and let them pass. I just don't see the problem since the goal is to kill everyone as killer and by not doing so the most effective way, it's kinda counterproductive.
@@andreasul2608 That depends on how you play. Different people have different goals, and depending on how tryhardy or how casual a given player is, they may see different methods as valid or unethical. It's honestly a spectrum, and while I respect your sense of competition, I tend to aim for a more relaxed experience. It's purely a difference in ideation.
@@Finzombie So they would probably do this on a higher ranking? Say during an important tournament if there had been one, where the best would compete.
Probably the only video I've seen on this topic where I agreed with every single idea, and the person making the video wasn't obviously biased towards either side, kudos to you sir excellent video
This may seem really stupid, but what if the killer hooks the last survivor on death hook (every survivor has been hooked twice) the entity injures every survivor not on hook, if the survivor is injured they get deep wound. This sounds like an interesting last moment save for the killer! Also maybe incorporate an effect for hooking everyone once too, like seeing everybody's aura that's not on hook. Good job on the video btw! Lots of great ideas!
One way I’ve always thought to counter tunneling is once the survivor is unhooked they can not be hit, no collision, or conspicuous actions. However they can heal teammates. If they unhook themselves or get unhooked in the killers terror radius it doesn’t work and works as is right now. If the doors are powered it would work as is right now. Now they’re are way to get around camping however I feel it would fix tunneling because the survivor can’t go down, literally they can’t go down, but they can’t progress the game majorly other than healing so then they are somewhat useful or have something to do. It’d also make some killers stronger like legion and other that can profit off of survivors being in close proximity. The survivor can’t take hits for other survivors because there’s no collision and they can’t be tunneled. Or do a variant of this method but if you do a conspicuous action it deactivated and you can get hit and/or tunneled out. If the killer really wants to tunnel they get punished by wasting a whole minute and lose a couple gens, if they don’t and go after others then you could lose less gens. Just what I think and I’m down for opinions to make this better.
Tunneling makes killer too efficient for survivors to have fun while not tunneling makes killer too inefficient to have fun. Fixing tunneling is making the game fun for both sides without imbalances being an issue. As he said, the changes he would make would encourage killers to not tunnel because they wouldn’t be applying as much pressure as they could. His changes could make the game fun for both sides and severely discourage tunneling. And I know what your gonna reply to this comment with, “Why should I care about the other side’s fun?” This entire video and comment is about making both sides more fun to play, I wouldn’t play DbD if killer or survivor wasn’t fun to play, and making it more fun will keep players in the game.
most that the killers start tunneling when they see that the gens are going pretty fast, as an idea, i think when 2 or more people are working on the same gen the debuff of speed should be increased, becose it is way to quick and with perks like prove thyself it makes the game last 5 minutes and as killer is really unpleasant
@@alphapollete7733 Exactly, as soon as 2-3 gens pop, and I have 0-2 hooks, I will tunnel. There's no other way to try and win. So I really liked the ideas presented on the video, specially the ones of disabling items for some time after unhooking, and making circle of healing only heal teammates. Another Idea I have, is to have base kit Deadlock, now it won't be 30 seconds, but maybe 10-15 seconds of basekit Deadlock would be perfect. That way gens don't start popping fast and at once. And it will reduce killers thinking they have to tunnel to win.
@@EdwinCristobal i think more than a base kit deadlock, its should be a basekit corrupt intervention of like 30 seconds, cause the chance that in the begining of the match 3 people hop on 3 diferent gens while u have to chase 1 survivor is very high, and its more likely that u would lose a match in the first 3 minutes of the game becose in that time for regular killers is very difficult or impossible to build pressure to win
@@imajoke3106 nah I agree with you they have good opinion on the game and I agree with some of their changes but generally when people are speaking about fixing tunneling they mean completely remove it
Tunneling is often recognized as being hooked over and over again without anyone else being hooked. So if you make a condition out of that in the game mechanics, the fix will be very easy. The right thing would be to bonus the unhooked survivor up until anyone else is hooked. You're off the hook and immediately got chased? No worries, here's your basekit haste and off the record. Killer actually dropped chase and decided to hook someone else? Your bonus is deactivated, but you're probably somewhere safe already. Someone else getting hooked is a decent indicator that you're probably not getting tunneled (at least not to the extreme). Same logic could be applied to rework anti-tunnel perks such as DS, Off the record, Guardian, etc. Right now these perks offer you benefits only for a set period of time and if you idle (not doing any conspicious actions). Timeout or touching a gen is not a good indicator that you're not being tunneled. You could have ran into a corner of the map to heal or do a gen thinking that the chase is over, only to realize, that the killer spent this whole time searching for you specifically. But because you already performed a conspicious action, your protection has gone. Having someone else hooked, imo, is a decent indicator that there's no hard tunneling. If you make it so that DS is activated upon being unhooked until *someone else is hooked* or the exit gates are powered, then the perk becomes much more viable, because it doesn't force you to idle to keep it active anymore.
I agree with a lot of the points in this video. I play both sides of this game, which to some may weaken my argument but for others I hope it really shows that I look at both sides of this game as fun and both sides are needed for the other to have a match. I played 100 games of solo queue back in December and out of 100 games, 61 players felt the need to give up. Some were killers, others were survivors. What would honestly fix this game is people learning that they can have fun and still lose while doing it. The mentality of giving up because something isn't going your way is just ending the game altogether if the killer gives up (which I had roughly 10 killers DC, so a 1 in 10.) or crippling the survivor team so hard when there are still 4 or 5 gens still up that you might as well have let yourself get tunneled out, at least that took more time from the killer and gave people a chance to do a gen. So, what would honestly make the game a bit better is implementing something when there is a DC. Idk what you could do for if the killer DC's, because even a bot taking over would really only serve as half the challenge of an actual killer player, or if the bot were too strong possibly harder than that killer would have been had they stayed. But for a survivor, either a bot taking over with decent enough AI or something like providing a bonus to gen speeds if a survivor DC's to the remaining survivors. You could even maybe do something akin to what happens to Ruin if a survivor dies, and there are more gens than there are survivors remaining, buff gen speeds for those remaining survivors. Maybe implement a base kit grim embrace or no way out for hooking every survivor? that way it doesn't steal a perk slot, but gives a nice effect to a killer who hooked everyone at least once before someone died. But even that could maybe be abusable, if say 3 hooks in someone DC's to prevent that 4th hook and then suddenly boom, buffed gen speeds if what I said above were also added. Because there's no way to stop someone from leaving or for what reason they left. Survivors leave match to give a teammate hatch all the time, or to prevent a pain res or pop goes the weasel proc. So how would this be any different? It would be tough to really add anything else, but those are some ideas I had. As a killer player, I see the reasoning behind tunneling because it makes it feel like you have a chance to win without stressing out the entire match. Yet as a survivor, it sucks to lose a teammate early or be the one who dies early. Even if you tried to add another objective for survivors to do, if gens meant escape then what's making them do it? It's easy to point at problems like tunneling, it's harder to solve them, though I think a lot of the ideas in this video, while not all perfect, are a step in a better direction. Though the killer part of me would hate 5 second stuns for most of my games again like they used to be where survivors played a mini game of hopping in lockers and you either ate the stun or left them and let them work on a gen.... Because screw that. That was the worst. But I guess it made you not tunnel? Even then sometimes the only way to claw back into the game was to tunnel in those days, and that's still the case today sometimes. I'm ranting, now. So I'll stop here. But yeah, good video overall.
I think something this video doesn't address is just how important tunneling has become due to how fast generators pop, tunneling is a way to counteract gen rushing by making survivors 3/4 as effective as normal. This video highlights alot of ways to buff survivor perks and changes to how it works in order to stop tunneling but the issue could be resolved by not making tunneling nessasary in the first place to have a fighting chance
the one saving grace about tunneling is when you go out of your way to tunnel a good survivor (who wants my attention), instead of the inexperienced ones, this in my opinion is completely fair because that survivor wants to be chased, and I want to chase someone good, but this is not really tunneling in my opinion.
Most of these ideas aren't really that good They disable the whole point of the perks of items What I think would be a good change is if you hit someone you just unhooked you get hindered and the blindness status effect for 5 seconds or if you get into chase with them you gain no bloodlust until you drop chase This way it'll make it to where nurse or blight can't keep up and the other killers won't be able to catch up as easily
would be great if the devs did something about it. Right now, either side feels less and less fun to play the higher elo you go, because everything is about beeing as efficient as possible and not playing the game "the intended way".
I do like some of these ideas for killer, but there's a fundamental flaw where most of them assume that players are willing to do something for the greater good/slightly improved benefits, having played this game for a long time, originally as a killer main, you need to use the stick and not the carrot. I've always said for camping for example, that there should be a large radius around the hook where if only the killer is inside it (while not in chase), and no survivors are inside, the hook progress is slowed. If the radius is large enough, this forces survivors to go and do gens/reset far away from the hook, meaning they can't abuse this slowed time because they have to spend a decently long time running back to the hook, and to the same extent, killers can't just hover on the edge of this radius to "camp" the hook, as there is enough distance that another survivor could get past them and unhook. Tunneling is harder, yes, but that's why I think those survivor ideas are so much better because with some counterbalance (no collision), making anti-tunnel perks hit harder would work without feeling unfair. In the same way perhaps you could buff Off the Record to include a longer unhook haste effect with the no collision stipulation, because that was one of the biggest fears on the ptb, was 4 man off the record bully squads bodyblocking for each other (alternately you could have the endurance instantly end when you have been fully healed).
the biggest problem is there is NEVER going to be a chnage you can make that will change how impactful taking one person out of the game can be. the difference between having to deal with 3 or only 2 alive survivors is ALWAYS going to be more enticing then any reward or boon or buff you offer the killer
Great video! I'd like to add a thing about "accidental" tunneling. It's indeed a thing. For some reason many survivors, who unhooked their teammate, would instantly hide, leaving injured mate to the killers discretion. Ofc it's a soloQ problem and people being dumb, but maybe we need some killer instinct on the unhooker? Just a small clue where this ratata is hiding.
As someone that plays killer I will say most the time I "tunnel" is when survivors have no clue what to do when rescuing. I have seen countless times when someone runs in the opposite direction of the person they save off of hook towards a strong loop while the person getting off hook goes to a deadzone... There are multiple instances where survivors do REALLY bad plays similar to the one just described (person getting off the hook taking protection hits to name one) to where the survivors deserve to be punished for playing poorly. I understand survivors all want to escape and have "fun" in whatever sadistic way floats your boat ie. flashies, sabos, teabags, etc. The killer wants the same thing, and unfortunately letting 4 people escape USUALLY consists of an "un-fun" game from the killers perspective. I have seen countless times survivors DC to prevent a mori style finisher (could be rancor/condemn etc.) then have their teammates try to flame the killer in endgame chat about why they didn't let the last person leave in hatch!? They will blame you saying I "tunneled" even though I was in a chase for 3 minutes and nobody went for the save. Heck, survivors have even complained about how I camped my TOTEM (pentimento) for the last 2 minutes of the game? Unfortunately, as much as the killers want survivors to have a good time and be fun for everyone, there is 4 times the number of survivors to killers. As such, Killers are more likely do experience the "bad apples" amongst survivors that ruin the basket for everyone and eventually lead to killers just not caring about survivors having fun to begin with. Like I said, why should I give a hatch escape if you dc before I can mori? I truly believe if the community as a whole all banned together to have fun nobody would be complaining about these problems. Unfortunately there are bad apples on both the survivor and killer side that will never change.
One of my idea's is to make injured survivors do actions like repairing slower (because of the pain) but put the gen repairing time 10 seconds less for healthy survivors (as it was used to) This would force the killer to stop tunneling and rather go on healthy survivors, or else the gens are going to be finished like it's nothing.
To be honest, the bloodpoints incentive for not tunneling was technically always there, BBQ had that effect and since they got rid of it then there's not much reason to use or to not tunnel neither, I kinda find tunneling a bit frustrating but it's a strategy anyways.
Two things i wanna add. First, players will still tunnel because it's human nature, they'll get mad because someone teabagged them and they'll get tunnel vision and seek revenge because someone teabagged them. Second, most people don't play enough of M1 killers to understand why they fail in chases so often. I'm an M1 killer main because M1 is how the game was built. With killers like Billy, Nurse and Huntress added to the game, it became a norm for killers to have abilities that could grant them better results than simply outlooping survivors. Trickster, Deathslinger, PyramidHead, Pinhead, Wesker, Blight, Artist, Doctor, all have abilities to zone survivors out of loops. This is bad because you created killers that counter looping but then you had to give survivors a way to outplay those killers so in the end you just made M1 killers weaker because now survivors are stronger in looping then they were when there only were M1 killers. The 2 last M1 killers we've had are Ghostface and Sadako, one from 2019 and the other from 2022 if i'm not mistaken. Look how manny killers since 2019 to 2022 were all either ranged or Zonners. See and realise how the game changed and made M1 killers meaningless and made the game not for them. Anytime you see a killer tunnel it's most likely to be an M1 killer and those that are not M1 killers are tunnelling simply because they don't know any better. Tunneling works so people do it. They want to win they don't want anything else. Reason why people are obsessed with that is because of MMR, they need to feel validated so the way to do that is to win and increase MMR, what they don't realise is that it doesn't matter if you have 2000 MMR or you're 1 single point above Cap, you're High MMR and everyone is High MMR because the Cap between brand new players and High MMR is very low, it's very easy to reach High MMR. I find it super cringe whenever any streamer thinks they're really high MMR when reality is : yeah buddy you and 99% of the players are high MMR, we're all above that riddiculously low Cap. I've got 4 years of experience with DbD and i play with and against brand new players and experienced veterans above me everyday. SO this notion that only a chosen few are high MMR and thus worthy of being listened to is toxic af. Yeah you might actually be higher MMR than most but you're still pulling players from lower MMR cause that's how the system works. So you'll either get easier games then you're meant to or you'll die when you're not meant to because you've pulled weaker survivors and a decent enough killer. Does it mean you're less skilled or more skilled? Nope, it only means matchmaking can't work properly because you're pulling from a gigantic spectrum of MMR. For MMR to work you need to have tiers and you need an indication on which tier you are and which tear the other 4 players involved are, even if there's no specific numbers you can at least give an educated guess as to what tier MMR your matches are and where you are placed. I think alot of people would be surprised to see that everyone is in fact High MMR despite their lack of skill.
I think there should be a blood point bonus for being the first person killed, and make it based off of the total number of hooks. It won't stop tunneling, but the reward could make it feel less worse getting tunneled. Unfortunately I don't think tunneling will never be a bad strategy. The only changes I can think of to make tunneling weaker for a killer, end up making it a good choice for survivors. I think the best option is just to reward players who don't tunnel and give rewards to players who get tunneled. Just trying to make it not feel as bad to get tunneled on the survivor side or to make killers feel better for getting 6 hooks, but no kills.
Honestly i don't know if this is too much, but i would make it so everytime you hook a different survivor, the speed of generator repairs slows down 5% and it caps at 20% permanently, survivors and killers are gonna be able to keep track of the stack with an icon on the side of the screen. and if the killer keeps doing it after the cap, they get a short haste for 10 seconds after each hook. This is basically a very agressive playstyle paired up with info perks like barbecue makes the game more fun in my opinion. But i will say it again, it's only an opinion and it might not sound good to everyone.
Change 3 for killer feels like it would make tunnelling much stronger. A lot of the times I think people tunnel because gens get rushed otherwise. Which like also feels bad. Turning off a survivor’s items just gives them another thing they can’t do to stop a tunneller
I like the idea of some sort of base kit Grim Embrace-esque effect, like revealing all the survivors or reducing their action speed (the constant hooking takes it’s toll or the entity is pleased by your evenly dispersed hatred or something). Although maybe grim embrace just needs a buff…
I would make Grim embrace be able to trigger twice. If you play in the "nicest" way possible as killer you could get 80 seconds of extra time. If you hook all survivors equally. I think making that duration up to 100 seconds so 50 per trigger would be strong and a very good way to motivate going for unique hooks. They need to make these kinds of perks good for the meta because it directly affects killer playstyles.
My biggest suggestion to make tunneling less effective is to add the aura reading part of off the record basekit for about 30 seconds. It's something that feels unnecessary for OtR right now, and would be a good quality of life improvement for Survivor. Also, have scourge hooks shuffle after you either don't get a scourge hook for 2 hooks in a row, or you've gotten a scourge hook 2 hooks in a row. It would help counter camping while also making it easier to reach scourge hooks when they're in horrible spots.
What makes this even worse is that BHVR endorses tunneling, and I say that because their community cup makes tunneling almost a necessity to win as the killer for your team. I played against a wraith who was training for one, and he tunneled out a random. He says that he has to do it because his chances of winning increases if he does, but if he doesn't that chance decreases
Also from talking to some killers, with the soloQ changes a lot more matches seem to be a lot more streamline and efficient for survivors generator wise, which could be expected as they have a lot more information. But as a result, a lot of killers have less time to do what they ordinarily would, and so have had a hard time adjusting to the new norm, as a result, they tunnel more often to counteract the quicker repair time on generators as a whole.
Also the sense of time on each role feel different, for killer even tho it took the survs 3 mins to fix 2 gens but for the killer it feels like 1 min while for the surv it feels like 5 min all in all 1 role feels more pressured then the other.
It’s not that much info .
just if someone is doing something or not. but it doesn’t tell you where they are doing it
Not really it just feels that way. The only time where the hud would have an impact on killer pressure is when there is 1gen left. As survivors know that a gen was worked on they wont jump on random gen that's all
@@karmiana9908 if you do not have object permeance then this is true . If you do however, then you can make informed decisions based on the generators you remember seeing and at what progress they were when you did see them, just like killers do when they decide on which gens to pressure and which chases to take, thusly survivors can more efficiently pressure the objectives and make sure any actions that are not taken towards the objective helps in the 4v1 as a whole. This is why prove thyself needs a nerf from 15% faster progress per survivor working on the gen to 5%
Yeah it's why I do it when I see gens fly
Turning the game into a 1v3 ASAP is just what killers need to not stress out for the rest of the game.
Hell sometimes even that’s not enough
I agree it’s stressful being a killer on dbd
Biggest bs I ever heard
true
Tunneling does suck. However, Against 4 efficient survivors, I can't create the skill to cycle their hooks states until victory.
I really hope that the "No collission" one gets added cuz ever since BT was made basekit, 90% of the time I go for the unhooker and I get body blocked by the person I'm trying to not tunnel. (Imo they do this and I down them, that's not tunneling, it's karma)
So your camping the hook? because you hit the guy who is the unhooker, now he is a one hit down. so the guy with basekit BT tries to body block for his buddy. that's not karma thats just toxic on your part. Hook camping and tunneling are both toxic behaviors that killers due.
@@robskovira5626 you're jumping to conclusions brother. It's somewhat common where you hook someone, walk away for 5 seconds and then see someone going for the unhook. What do you do, ignore them? No!
@@robskovira5626you sound like a survivor who loops a killer around the hook and calls him a camper. Lol
@@robskovira5626 The word toxic has lost its meaning because people call anything toxic they don't like. That's just entitled and imo entitlement is a way more toxic trait than any playstyle in a videogame could ever be. Camping and tunneling suck, yes, but they're objectively the most efficient and easy ways to win. Being a tryhard is not toxic.
@@robskovira5626 I take hits and bodyblock all the time, regardless if the killer camps. I have had my girlfriend get intercepted 20 meters away and get hit then save me and then i ran forward to take the hit. I wasnt being camped. Dont assume because you lack knowledge
One small thing I forgot to add is that the no collision a survivor receives after being unhooked wouldn't work with self unhooks. This would be unfair for the killer because if the survivor unhooks them self right in front of them they wouldn't be able to do anything. This is different to if another survivor unhooks in front of the killer because then the killer can go for the unhooker. Anyway I hope you enjoy the video and let me know what you think :)
I just realized what you’re animation reminds me of, the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy 😂
Man I love the style.
Wait wait, are you saying the collision removal would make them unable to be hit?
I have not played survivor since about a year because of tunneling, and so I mainly play killer and most often run a devour hope run just to make things interesting. I do not try to tunnel but that's hard to do when the entire survivor squad are using the same character and skin
Actually i think the collision should apply to self unhooks in case of camping but it should get disabled at end game.
So basically people are just terrible at the game , And don't understand anything about the mechanics
About Decisive Strike: a big reason why it was nerfed is because of how many players, particularly in squads, would use DS offensively by forcing the killer into situations where they would have to down the unhooked survivor (e.g. body blocking door to shack to prevent killer from downing the survivor who got the rescue). In fact it was found that more often than not, the perk was being abused for purposes not which it was intended and was really only being used to punish killers who were trying not to tunnel, but were instead being antagonized until they finally did. Though necessary a perk, the abuses made the nerf necessary as well.
Definitely bring back the bloodpoint effects of BBQ and We're Gonna Live Forever. Absolutely on the 5 second stun of Decisive. I love the no collision thing. Here's an idea... There are some perks in the game that gain stacks when a survivor is hooked like Hex: Huntress' Lullaby and Dying Light... what if... each time you hook a survivor for the first time... perks like those gain 2 stacks instead of one? Since it gives it on hook instead of unhooking, it won't add to Devour hope AND it'll make some majorly unloved perks a tiny bit more viable and encourage the killer to go after the other survivors, at least, early game.
Buff hex perks that arent good already maybe double the tokens and make it so after 5 huntress lullaby makes skill checks sucess zonas smaller or make the skill checks dimmer and harder to see. Maybe grima embrace used after 4 tokens and so its used twice? (once per 2 first hooks) good idea???
@@blessedfox9751 please no.. there are already too many perks making the skillchecks really hard and small..
On unique hook incentives:
Base Kit “BBQ/PGTW” is the best call I think. They recently made a change where killers reduce progress by 2.5% when they kick gens, so let’s get away from gen kicking and towards hooking.
Every unique hook reveals the aura of the highest progressed gen for a minute. If a survivor you have not hooked is working on it, reveal them until they enter 32 meters of you.
Possible addition: if you kick the highlighted gen within a minute, you reduce that gen’s repair speed by 20-30%.
The main reason for tunneling is easy chases/kills. There also is not a lot of time for newer killers to kill unless they’re running several slowdowns, which leaves them no aura reveals.
Providing information to the killer will incentivize them to act on that information.
i mean it’s a pretty good idea and it would probably stop the tunneling, but it is just giving the killer another buff, that they don’t need. It should be something that STOPS tunneling and not just making it harder for the killer or not the best option but still there
@@Alex-wf2tj killer DOES need a buff though. M1 killer base kit that is. If the base kit of every killer is brought up we can nerf more of the top tier stuff. My motto is to over buff and then fix things rather than over nerf.
You absolutely hit the nail on the head with this one! I'm a killer main and love these ideas. It is true, at least i feel that way, that CoH and DH as well as the MedKit META since 2021 have made pressuring multiple survivors less and less viable. One thing i'd like to add is that killers with timed abilities get often countered by DH which can not be used if you are in deep wound. Countering the most used and still very good perk DH by just hitting the Borrowed time hit seems to save more time because why hit other survivors 3 times if you can just easy 1 hit and after that 2nd hit the 1st hook survivor? I'm a Blight main and really want his and other killers tunneling effectiveness to slow so nerfing these survivor perks that insentive tunneling, buffing DS so it ACTUALLY hurts Blight and Nurse players as well as insentivising going for multiple survivors to pressure just like it was in 2018 are fantastic changes. ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!!! KEEP IT UP!
ew meta main
When survivor mains pretend to be killer mains to further push their agendas. So cute.
As a non meta killer main i do not agree
@@anitoancognita7060 one really fun non meta build that I started playing recently is spirit fury enduring brutal strength hubris on billy with the purple glove add ons and then you overheat your chainsaw and you shred thru pallets it’s really fun
5 second DS stun disproportionately hurts non-meta killers though and nerfing tunneling would gut the best killer strategy without fixing the main issue, gen speed. The devs can’t nerf every gen slow perk AND nerf tunneling and expect people to still play killer.
Really like your little animations, adds some major charm. Cool video to address a major problem.
Overall pretty good changes. However disabling items to me is going after the symptoms of a problem rather than the source. Many items, especially medkits are way overtuned. We need them toned down, not a built in feature to turn them off. Also I feel the number one main reason people are tunneling so much now wasn't addressed which is gen speed. Bad map design is the main thing causing gens to go too fast to where killers feel required to tunnel. You touched on the other reason which was healing being too efficient alone though. CoH self healing and the power of medkits needs to go, it makes hits not meaningful at slowing the survivors down. Killers don't go for 12 hook games because they aren't viable. Give them the time to make chases and they will make them as they currently do not.
" main reason people are tunneling" , I think regardless of other reasons, the core issue is that tunneling is the best way to win a match. If you want to see less tunneling you have to make it a worse strategy than other options. For example you mention gen speed as a reason people tunnel. This isn't quite correct, if you made gens take 4x longer to complete, killers would win most matches, but tunneling would still be the best strategy. If you made gens take 1/2 as long to complete, killers would lose most matches, but tunneling would still be the best strategy.
The worst part of the problem is that nothing is better at getting you a win than tunneling. Sure you could give blood points or other rewards to incentivize chasing other players, but if a player wants to win (get 4 kills) tunneling remains the best option. So like the video says, you need to make attacking a player off the hook is bad, and you need to wait till they work a gen or try to heal etc. But you also need to make sure its not possible to abuse the protections, which is why he suggests making them lose collision while they have protection too.
Once you make tunneling no longer the best strategy, I think then you can look at healing, gen speed etc. Healing and gen speed are certainly factors, but the core issue is that even if healing is made terrible, or gens made slow, tunneling would still be the best way to win if you make no other changes. You might incentivize some players to not do it for fun etc. but it doesn't change things enough and tunneling would still be the best strategy.
@@Zaszz1 I mean you mostly said everything I was already saying.
"Once you make tunneling no longer the best strategy, I think then you can look at healing, gen speed etc."
Except I disagree here, it needs to be simultaneously, not after. Currently there a many cases where tunneling is required because of the games balance.
Where we disagree is that you think people are "mostly" tunneling because it's the easiest route. I think the main reason people tunnel is because they feel forced to because of how bad the games balance is. Most people want to win playing normally and not tunneling. How do we know this? Look at before MMR and CoH released as an example. How prevalent was tunneling back then? Way, way less, and no it wasn't just because of DS. The reason it was way less then is because tunneling was less necessary as injures actually slowed the game down more since self healing wasn't so strong and because we had more slow down perks. On top of this back before MMR you would be getting much more relaxed and less sweaty games to where tunneling didn't feel as necessary if they wanted to win.
Currently there are many games at high MMR where tunneling is required to win.
I do agree though that tunneling being the most efficient way is a problem is general though.
Medkits AND Toolboxes, not only are they overtuned, survivors basically have a whole warehouse stocks worth of them due to the bloodweb changes.
I play killer a lot and I will say that the way the game is as of now you kinda have to tunnel to even have a chance if you go for 12 hooks gens get done way to fast and it's made it almost impossible to win games normally this is what I have seen through the new updates
Obviously is biased but I have to disagree here, you do not need to tunnel to win most matches, the biggest issue is that people have gotten used to it, stopped thinking how to make people behave.
I tested this by playing addonless and perkless + no tunneling or camping, obviously this has a giant demerit, but the balance sits around 2.89 kills after 4 months, I am not the best killer, far from it in fact, but with the amount of tools killers have at their disposal to slow a game to a crawl, the biggest issue is people losing the first chase, not giving it up and then just losing 1 to 3 gens because of stubbornness.
Was crazy to open Otz's stream today and see him watching your vid live!! First hour of the 07/03/2023 stream! Hope this leads to the channel getting the attention it deserves
Thank you for telling me otherwise I may have missed it! Watching his reaction was very cool and he offered some great insights.
Aw I wish I could see it
Aw I wish I could see it
I think tunnelling is a by-product of some even larger problem in the game. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but I can tell you now that if you look at any professional competitive dbd match (without op killers and add-ons), tunnelling is happening consistently, and it is because it is the only thing that killers can do to try and win, because otherwise they'd lose. I think this larger problem could possibly be how survivors can easily win if the killer doesn't tunnel through gen-rushing. Think of how much less pressure the killer generates when chasing someone who isn't dead on hook, compared to someone who is. I am unsure how to fix this though, because giving any buff to the unhooked survivor will just drop the kill rate of killers and the overall amount of players who play this game, but not giving any buff will just not really address the tunnelling problem. I think it's a catch 22 in my opinion :) .
The problem is fairly cut and dry. A Injured survivor on death hook and a healthy survivor who has never been hooked, offer the exact same amount of Generator pressure. The only survivor who cannot create generator pressure is a Downed or a Dead survivor, and one of those things is temporary in the match, the other is not.
I think you are a bit misled. Sure, it does not matter if a survivor is on death hook or not, it doesn't impact their generator pressure. But if that survivor on death hook is tunnelled out, that makes it one less person able to do gens. Think about it. If I was to load into a match as a killer, and I hooked everyone fairly, so two hooks for every person, assuming everyone had medkits/boons (meaning a survivor doesn't have to get off the gen to heal that survivor), that is still four people able to do gens. The generator pressure was not reduced as the game progressed. Therefore, it makes it a much more viable strategy to tunnel someone out at the start, because that makes it one person less doing gens. And with prove thyself being a thing, tunnelling is much more viable than playing fair.
@@jimmy-j6465 and i think you misunderstanding what i mean XD.Our points are the same, You have explained yourself in more words the exact point i was trying to get across with my above post,which was since a Death Hook survivor and a no Hook survivor offer the same gen pressure, that yes spreading out hooks has been now applying less and less pressure, due to the fact Survivor perks keep making them more self sufficient, and because of that targeting one person to remove them from the game is becoming a stronger and stronger option.
@@njrk97 Oh yeah, I think I was a bit confused with what you were saying. I interpreted what you said as the KILLER generating pressure, rather than what the survivors are capable of generating.
@@jimmy-j6465 I think ur missing the point that tunneling is just a real asshat move. If you play survivor often, especially if u solo que by yourself or with a friend its very hard to get a coordinated team. I've had days were I or a friend have been tunneled out starting at 5 gens when there wasn't even gen pressure from the other survivors bc Meg was too busy hiding in a corner 😭 Even at Iridescent 1, I get a lot of survivors who are basically useless and on top of that the killer spends 20 minutes tunneling me and chasing thru every loop just to secure a single kill when it most likely would have been more efficient to switch between players. I understand the dilemma killers are sometimes put in , but that strat is just real shitty to other players. At that point your not being forced into it as you claim, but actively choosing to tunnel someone out at 5 gens to make it easy on urself. Ur coping.
In situations as a killer main whenever a survivor tries to take a hit for the person who unhooked them I will usually hit them and then chase them. Usually they are denying me a first hit on someone else and by hitting the survivor blocking, the endurance is basically a first health state. This forces the survivor to decide if they should get tunneled or let me chase someone else
I usually count to 10 and then hit
Just don't tunnel and chase all players regardless
Oh yeah if a surv uses their unhook endurance aggressively to take hits, I’m hard punishing that by "tunneling" them every single time. It’s an anti tunnel mechanic, not an offensive mechanic so I punish those types of plays
@vemon117 Nah I dont think I will. Use your BT to escape instead of using it aggressively or you get targeted.
@hardboiled2987 I am a killer main.. if you are getting our played your getting out played
I thought also about the Idea that Killers get Buffs the more hooks they do on different Survivor like debuff for Survivors (Gen- and Healspeed) if you get as an example 4 different Hooks. Maybe Grim Embrace as Base Kit would be a really good Idea also
idk there’s already a scourge hook that decreases gen speed for survivors hooked on them so i wouldn’t make them BK instead i’d focus on making it easier for survivors who haven’t been hooked based off of how many hooks there are so if the killer is tunneling there’s a surv with like 175% gen speed 7-8 minutes into the game
@@deadinside44123 Thats just... way too much. People use the word tunneling so freely even if the killer isnt that it has no meaning at all in dbd and i dont think it should be messed with too much. The killer should not be punished for recognizing that an unhooked survivor has made a mistake like tapping a gen before healing up, running into them, anything like that.
@@gamingcantina9157 if i run into a survivor that just got off hook i literally go out of my way to go for someone else. yeah 175% is way too much but then again that’d be on ONE person. perks like that one scourge hook already promote not going for the same person by giving you buffs if you go for everyone so i don’t get why there shouldn’t be a (maybe basekit) perk that lets you do better on gens if the killer is tunnleling
@@deadinside44123 That would just result in insane gen rushes as even if the killer ISN'T tunneling.
If a survivor is avoiding the killer to focus gens by letting their team goes for unhooks they will get max gen speed regardless of the killer tunneling or not.
As Decisive Strike has proven that tunneling punishments for the killers will always be exploited by survivors and will used against non tunneling killers regardless.
Nice game of spot the survivor main!
There's something you missed in the video. One other reason killers tunnel is because of the gen related perks and items survivors have and if they wanted to they could a gen in 27 - 47 seconds, couple that with the nerfs to the gen regression perks we have like Pop or Hex: ruin and you get teams being able to gen rush hard and both new or experienced killers being left in the dirt.
As an actual killer main, I hate it when people make "solutions" but instead are buffing one side while not changing what majorly influences the behavior. While I agree with some points, please try to see more from our perspective.
Ps. Thanks for telling me Doc, and damn I didn't think it's was that bad.
Halve? no fastest gen rates are 27 seconds, AVERAGE gen speed is 47 seconds
Recently killers are just assholes. They'll tunnel 1 survivor and let everyone else go free just to vent out anger after their last game. If you can't kill survivors without tunneling then maybe change up the build or get better. Face camping benefits survivors for gens so I don't get why they do it as a killer that's not Bubba. I like getting a hit on each survivor to I guess play with them since it is a game. You get more xp/BP this way and you get chases which is the fun of a killer.
@@RVFFICA I hate when Survivor Main that use second chance and meta perks say killers "get good" yeah ok I wanna see you win without your meta stuff, it's not about skill, it's who brings the strongest shit and the winning tactics.
@@RVFFICA Guess what whenever you remove all breathing room from a Killers kit they have to do tactics like this to still be viable. If you want killers to go for chases you have to give them incentive for chases. BUT every perk that did so was Killed. Pop, Ruin, Thanatophobia, Eruption, Dead man's Switch, perks that let killer apply gen pressure and encouraged chases were effectively removed while new gen rush perks were added. Gen times went from 54 seconds to 47 seconds average the fastest gen times dropped from 36 seconds to 27 seconds. But killers were not given tools to speed up chase ether. Infact survivors KEPT their gen extension perks. They can now easily extend a chase past 47 seconds with just a single perk.
@@RVFFICA Face camping and tunneling are not the same thing. This video is about tunneling.
There are times when a little tunnel is required, though.
It's something Killers can do to turn a match that has gotten away from them.
Tunnelling at 4-5 gens is shitty, but if you're at 1-2 and you've only had say 3 hooks, why should you not have anything to swing the tide?
Agreed..nothing wrong with the killer tying to catch up after losing a few gens by getting someone out the game.
Tunneling at 1-2 is already a losing battle
@@robbanks7483 Sometimes, for sure. But there are games I've gotten to 1-2 gens left, had everyone hooked once and been forced to turn the game back in my favour
@@robbanks7483if you are an experienced killer you can turn the tide of the game by tunneling later in the game
The real issue is if you get rid of tunneling, you essentially destroy the killer meta. Killer would need significantly more than these changes tbh. If every change in this video got in, tunneling would still be meta because to actually challenge a coordinated team is impossible any other way unless you're Nurse, Blight, or Spirit
We are in accord
The slowdown from loosing 1 person is just to valuable
And for the not to great killer players it is also a guaranteed return on investment
If you managed to to hook a dude 1 without spending 5 minutes then a second time is also easy
While in a coordinating team they might just send their "dedicated runner" that spend his last 150 hours of dbd without touching a gen and just run killers.
I think you missed the part about a speed bonus after hooking. Speed is why nurse and blight are meta. They can cut chase time by closing distance.
@@liamhutfles4113 um no. They’re the best because their chase powers are absurdly broken in and 1 v 1 and 1 v 4 aspect
My suggestion to your last change would be that this "endurance timer pause while in chase" is disabled during endgame collapse/when all generators are powered. I imagine it would be quite frustrating for killers if a survivor can just bolt it for the exit gates after the unhook while being literally invulnerable... And if their teammates are also healthy and blocking for them everyone gets out with absolutely zero concern for someone dying. It's a great idea, but it would need this addition in order to prevent survivors abusing the system. Otherwise I very much like your suggestions and would welcome much of these changes with open arms!
Maybe circle of healing could highlight injured survivors in its radius and only allows the survivor to self heal for 50% of his health. Beyond that threshold you'll need someone else to finish the heal
Play with your food basekit reward. 1% haste for every new survivor hooked, up to 4% and an extra 1% haste for hooking all survivors one time in a row.
Hooking someone else a second time before completion breaks the streak and removes the accumulated buffs.
Oooo I really like that idea!
@@EdwinCristobal it's conscientious of items and gen speeds. You can lose the reward if you feel like you have to tunnel to gain back pressure. For the pressure you gain from speed, the survivors are more incentivized to help stall chases with protection hits/saves etc. Winning pressure back.
Yeah, maybe games go more in killers favor over all, but everyone gets to play a game that feels like a game.
So what happens when 1 person is just hiding making it impossible to hook the 4th
We can’t just cut off playstyles, at the end of the day tunneling, slugging and camping are valid options for killers, sometimes it’s necessary to have any chance against a good team. These things aren’t inherently game breaking either, and survivors have freedom to play however they want.
In my opinion increasing stun times is a pretty irritating solution.
I agree their valid options for killers. I don’t think killers should feel bad for using any of these strategies. But the truth is these strategies can make the game unfun for survivors. Like you said, they can be necessary when versing a good team so I tried to think of changes that make it so the killer doesn’t necessarily need to tunnel in order to win against good survivors. Hopefully this would lead to different strategies that are more fun for both sides to be the most viable. In short, my problem isn’t that tunnelling exists, it’s that rn tunnelling is much better then almost all other strategies.
@@SOC Alright fare
Maybe killers shouldn't be playing against such good teams if they *have* to tunnel and camp in order to get a few kills
@@thornykettle112 sbmm doesn't give them a choice.
I now make it my mission to waste as much time as humanely possible in a match if a killer decides to tunnel and camp at 4-5 gens. My favorite is when said killer angrily types in endgame about me just “refusing to die.” It sure makes me happy to know that no one had fun!! 😊
I notice that many survivors tend to get too much scared of the killer, and while the killers is tunneling one survivor, the others just keep hiding instead of doing the gens.
i dont think you mentioned the introduction of mmr as a reason for the increase of tunneling,as this is based on kills and nothing else,tunelling one person out gets you a kill and makes it easier to get more
finally the video! It's so cool you put me in it at 7:15 :)
2 seconds of decisives stun duration is just the animation of you getting off the killers shoulder. So it's a 1 second stun. Very good job so far.
Tell me again why years ago we knew self care was super broken and overpowered because you could self heal without wasting another team-mates time and now everyone knows that and uses medkits and then they add a perk like CoH that takes 1 out of 12 perk slots on the survivor team and gives them just a bit slower medkit. How does that make any sense.
i think your wrong but if your right you could then pick someone up on a ledge forcing them to fall when they use ds so that would mean they fall for almost or all the stun duration?
@@blessedfox9751 i think I'm right but the stun duration starts as soon as the animation does so it does take up some time. Maybe not a full 2 seconds but the stun Is still awful and it's a bad perk either way.
Best change idea is definitely the pausing the endurance timer if the killer chases right after the unhook
You have to look at gen speeds too, I've had matches where the literal first chase lasts not even a minute and one gets done. With how much cheaper the bloodpoint items are survivors are stacked with the strongest toolboxes and items and gen rushing has become even more of a problem. Gen defense perks while ok still do barley anything to a cooridinated team. Which in turn makes tunneling an even more viable strategy. Gen protection perks get nerfed and survivors get more gen rushing perks which just makes it worse every chapter, some weaker than others but again well coordinated swfs in high ranks make them oppressive. you stay in chase with a survivor just one split second too long and you lose 3 gens. Another thing that happens is gens fly so fast survivors 3-Gen themselves and depending on the killer, now makes the game a 20 minute stand off and is miserable for both sides. I want incentive to chase, without feeling that I can't because if I do I automatically lose. Killers are so spread thin on managing time and juggling so much stuff that it makes the whole experience miserable and the only way to win is to play as dirty as possible.
Part of me wishes that more people would play killer and actually see things from our perspective from time to time when it comes to "solutions" especially in the higher ranks.
Gen speed is not the issue, if you focus on each survivor at a time the gens will pop,this game is a 1vs4 so you should split pressure instead of focusing on one survivor at the start
@@Insanity-vv9nn huh? "Instead of focusing on one survivor at the start" then what the hell am I supposed to do at the start of the round? Only chase them off gens like a cranky old man? lol Gens are an issue and still are an issue, 90 seconds didn't add anything when 2 pop in less than 40. I feel all you read was the first line and then commented.
I think in addition to these wonderful suggestions, some killers feel the need to tunnel because of the insane anti-pressure some survivor items can bring, particularly Brand New Parts and medkits. With the cheaper cost of items in the bloodweb, these sorts of things are a lot more common, and they need to be brought down to a level that’s more feasible for weaker killers to deal with in addition to these changes.
These add-ons are in the game for a very long time and were used way before the tunneling and camping phenomenon increased in frequency. They are not the direct cause of this happening. It's because of perk changes and because of perks like Circle of Healing being added. Boons, seems to me, are the worst when it comes to balance changes. I would focus on that, mainly CoH that truly turned trials on their head.
@@Ehrill942 Its like they said in the video back when ds was cool the risk for tuneling was reasonable just like how older regression perks made it more of a risk to bring brand parts and strong medkits because all that time spent could kill your generador progress. Now that the generador regresión perks are not as cool anymore there is less of a risk to not bring brand Parks and medkits because generador stay longer alive.
I've seen a bunch of good ideas to help prevent tunneling: One I'll mention is the streamer TrU3Ta1ent's and that is the Suffering Meter. The more you make all 4 survivors suffer through hits and hooks, the higher the meter goes. I believe the idea behind it was to expand on the win condition for killers. If 4 Survivors escape, but the Killer got every one to death hook, does that mean it was a total loss? Absolutely not.
Another idea to incentivize Killers to leave the hook: After getting a unique hook, the Killer can see auras of generators that have progress on them. They can't see how much progress or if they're currently being repaired, but it would at least give Killers an idea as to where they should divert their attention.
I'm on board with all of these ideas, especially the CoH one. It's the most frustrating to deal with as Killer because it's the only Boon that benefits from being set up in a place where the Killer has no business in going. I'd remove the ability to Self-care, increase the healing speed a little bit (like maybe 10-20%), and allow other Survivors to see your Aura if you're within the Boon's range. It should still be worth a perk slot, but shouldn't offer unlimited self-heals for the Survivor.
Circle of Healing killed hit and run playstile
I'm sorry I don't care about bloodpoints or suffering meters or any nonsense like that. If all 4 people escape then I lost and I might DC just because I don't want those blood points. For me this I think is dead on arrival.
@@xeticus5435 You might not, but is that to say that other people don't? The idea is to reward Killers "playing nice" by giving them rewards and making it the more effective playstyle compared to tunneling out a Survivor early on in the match. Having the Suffering Meter alone won't fix the issue, but having it in combination with other things to promote spreading out hooks and punish tunneling one Survivor early on? I think it could help.
@@saintamici9735 The only thing that will help is if killers have a fair chance of winning if they get their first kill later. Right not now if you can tunnel out someone when only 1 or 2 gens are done you have a very good chance at a 4k. If you don't kill someone until only 1 gen is done then you will almost certainly lose. Make changes to the game so that killers have a good chance of winning late and there will be less pressure on them to tunnel to win.
@@xeticus5435 Exactly. Hence why the Suffering Meter shouldn't be the only thing we implement. That's why I suggested the change of seeing generators with progress on them for every unique hook. Along with other ideas (I've seen gen speed repair increases for remaining Survivors, basekit NOED, and a bunch of others). It's a problem that needs to be tackled from multiple angles. Make spreading out hooks the most effective way to play the game AND give the Killers the tools to do so while simultaneously making the "tunneling 1 survivor early on" strategy the least effective way to win for Killers.
Medkits should not be able to heal yourself completely. Do you know how when you're in the dying state in the ground, it says get help and doesn't pass 95%. Medkits should do the same. Medkits should let you do 95% of a heal, then get someone else to finish it off the same with circle of healing.
I like the idea of that change to circle but also think it should display the aura of injured survivors in its radius if that's the case to keep it from disproportionately impacting soloq
Thank you for defining tunneling. A lot of survivors don’t know what tunneling really is lol
Amazing video, your editing and your animations look so cool, love your content!
My idea has been to make a hook apply a new status effect to you, similar to broken that would not allow you to heal yourself through any means, requiring another survivor to heal you. Could be a bit overkill but medkits would still have there place if you need to heal after a chase or use it more selflessly on another survivor and it would really encourage that unhooker to stay and heal.
Gift of pain is similar to that
Survivors: "The chase is the funnest part of the game".
Also survivors: "Fuck killers who tunnel".
No I use to main survivor then switched to killer. I immediately noticed how much harder killer is to play. You have to tunnel because Behavior has buffed survivors so much meanwhile leaving killers in the dust. With perks, broken loops, shitty maps and now solo survivors being able to see what other survivors are doing, killers have many more things to deal with. The amount of times I’ve had to simple deal with a map with so many pallets and windows is annoying on its own 😂 if they want killers to stop tunneling then stop buffing survivors and give many killers the buffs they do desperately need.
I think you’re right…but there’s the problem that most killers cannot keep up anymore, survivors are getting really strong and every 3 perks killers gain, survivors get like, 3 or 6, either way I don’t think they needed to rework a perk so that the survivors don’t get tunneled, the game is getting dependent on the perks, if DBD wants to solve these type of problems they need to rework the game itself, I think, at least, that reworking a perk won’t solve this at all, survivors only have 4 slots of perks. If DBD wants to be a balanced game, it should work without the perks, like, if you play a match that no one has perks, the “anti-tunnel” still works.
Killer main here, and let me just say you knocked this one out of the park. DS is never scary, any time someone runs from the hook to a locker, regardless of if I was intending to chase them or just hit them and force them to mend while I went after someone else, I will purposefully pull them out to eat it so it isn't available at any actually useful time.
Personally, I believe that the change to make the endurance effect not tick down while in a chase sounds very nice, though a couple of killers could cheese it by either moonwalking or using stealth to not start the chase (inb4 this causes Pig to get nerfed again lmao)
That, and the part where you mentioned the devs having to be careful with any buffs they give survivors because there are so many SWF players or content creators with 5k+ hours who can and will abuse it. Kinda sucks for people like me who never play survivor because a lot of this that would have helped me get into learning the role have been removed or nerfed because of those kinds of players. :c
What if instead DS is a 3.5 stun on your first hook, but on your second is a 6 second stun
To fix tunneling they need to update the game to make it so when the second survivor hooked is also the first survivor who was hooked. A fist emerges from the killers screen and punches the person playing in the face.
"Remove the self healing from circle of healing"
Well this aged like a fine wine.
I always get tunneled and it’s just not fun
@jett5725
Tunneling is not real snowflake
It's called playing the game
Found the truetalent watcher
You guys do not realize how weak killers now are. Instead of buffing survivor's anti-tunnel perks it's better to buff killers. That will remove the NECESSITY to tunnel to actually win. Ofc you can win against potatoes who do not do gens. But when you go against skilled players with 4 adrenaline + 4 sprint bursts (dh) or against window of opportunities. They just loop you for ~3 gens before first hit. Or drop every pallet, so you can't use your power at all (as oni).
You can say that I'm just weak as a killer. But. It's scary easy to win as survivor's. If at least 2 of them do gens
P.s. I'm a survivor main 😶🌫️
I think bhvr should buff every D and C tier killer
Like for example, Trapper. He needs buffs asap
@@Agaroth3010 it would be cool if trapper had as a basekit this:
• 5-7% haste for 5 seconds after placing a trap (like muffin addon)
• at least half of the traps in his hands after spawning in a match (kinda like a green bag).
• in a case if the trap is closed by the survivor it takes 3 minutes to open itself again (like iri addon). With visual indicator when it would open (like it's aura intencety)
so trapper could use this information to trap survivor's, who would think that it:s safe.
• rework of add-ons
That would definitely help him to get a first chase faster and would make him more stable overall.
@@Agaroth3010 I also think bhvr could add the FIFTH perk slot for killers (maybe for survs too). It would shake up the meta and give killers more variety (or not). Because they kinda forced to have a 2-4 perks for gen slowdown. And if you want to play with other perks you can get literally zero to little value from it instead of extra time in a match from gen slowdown.
Honestly I think that would NOT help at all because killers could just bring not 4, but 5 gen slowdown. It would be absolutely a pain for survs. And since there are 4 time more survs bhvr can not sacrifice their survs community even more..
It also could be cool if we had an 1vs1 event. Only chases. With a hatch spawning after some time. You play 2 rounds as surv, then 2 as killer. Or something like that
I think instead of changing DS for all killers we need to look at the reason some killers don't care about DS like nurse and Blight. Maybe removing their charges when they are hit by DS will help with this issue as 5 seconds isn't much to them but is horrible for low tier killers.
This is a good idea
Wont do much they regain their charges back fast, for a Blight and Nurse the stun need to be 7 seconds or they both need balance changes.
That's dumb a perk that targets characters specifically is lazy and embarrassing
@@darnelhays7999 I think it's important to accept not all killers are the same. It's sad to say that comparing Nurse to Trapper isn't going to work. Either behaviour makes changes to narrow the gap (which I think considering how nurse works isn't going to happen) or perks need to affect them differently
Unless you have a suggestion?
I think the main issue is that you dont feel like you’re doing good as the killer unless you kill someone/ tunnel them out to make it easier. Killer needs genuine pats on the back from the entity so even when they aren’t doing the greatest, they feel like a powerhouse. They need special/new sfx for hooking, hitting, getting a mori, kicking a gen, breaking a pallet/wall and maybe even allowing killer players to grind bloodpoints with bots so they can grasp tracking and listening for audio queues. If you just throw them in the deep end with real people you’ll never see the killer numbers go up or their playstyles change. BHVR needs to hold new killer players hands to show them it CAN be fun. Killer is honestly a slowly dying role because why would you want to get bullied when you can experience the most goofy gameplay with your friends? You gotta hype the new players up and make them WANT to play killer. With this the lower brackets will stop imitating what their favorite content creators say is good and start forming their own playstyles regardless of the outcome, BHVR has incentivized killing over everything else and if the killer gets nothing they become extremely discouraged and will start playing to win rather than thinking if the other side is having fun with them. Thats why we see the same handful of killer in our games, their favorite slasher/icon might be in the game but if all they take are “Ls” why wouldn’t they just pick up the better character in general so they can start to win.
i think it’s funny how nemesis is the thumbnail because i usually get tunneled by nemesis
strong medkits and boons are still a problem for killers so they are tunneling
Yes! I really like the ideas of disabling items for some time after being unhooked. And making circle of healing only heal teammates. That way survivors don't get healed in less than 20 seconds. Killers know survivors heal so fast after being unhooked so its a big reason they tunnel.
Bring DS back to 5 seconds and pop back to 25% total. Both perks didn't need the latest nerfs they got , one encourages getting hooks while the other discourages tunneling.
I had a somewhat similar idea i posted on the subreddit about six months ago. (It didn't take off at all.)
The idea is to make a type of bounty system. It would be randomly assigned to a survivor at the start of the match just like the obsession and would show up on the UI. Unlike the obsession though it would not be visible to the survivors and it would be independently assigned. Once the killer hooks the obsession the next bounty is assigned to a different survivor who has been hooked less times than the one just hooked. Or, in the event that there are none, to just another survivor with the same number of hooks. When the killer hooks a bounty they get some blood points, a haste effect, and killer instinct on the next bounty for a few seconds and with each consecutive bounty hook the rewards will increase.
The numbers would all need to be messed with the get them balanced of course but the philosophy being to make not tunneling viable for people who do not want to do it but feel like they have to because it's strong. I think people need to accept that if a killer wants to camp/tunnel just to be an asshole they're going to do it and there's no way to stop that because of the nature of the power distribution in the game. This gives those people an easier means to both find and traverse the map to get to their next target.
I think that's actually one of the biggest barrier to getting killers to play more fun. I have this guy right here that I can chase. I don't want to have to spend time walking around the map looking for a new survivor. That's just boring and who knows how long it'll take to find a new one? With this, I have a good idea of where they are because of killer instinct and I can book it out of there to give the other survivors time to rescue.
I also think there's value in making it a dedicated mechanic with a visual on the UI. I think it'll make it stick in players heads more and going for bounties exclusively will totally end up being a thing some people do. It also takes away the need to have to make decisions. I think that's another hidden reason people tunnel. They just want to kind of turn their brain off and play some mindless DBD and don't want to have to think about the macro gameplay. It's kind of similar to camping in that way.
In my opinion, DS should be reworked into becoming a basekit buff for survivors: If nobody else was hooked since you were unhooked, you were hooked less than 40 non-chase seconds ago, you have not taken a protection hit, you are not in endgame and the killer pick you up, you get a 5 sec stun DS no matter what actions you've taken. It sounds specific, but it should avoid false positives and false negatives as much as possible, and should all be stuff that the game can already look out for.
Last hook is pretty obvious; if someone else got hooked in between, you're not being tunneled, so the tunneling protection goes away.
Hooked less than 40 seconds ago is similarly obvious, if you go down this fast after being unhooked, then it is fair of the killer to leave you slugged and give a chance for a teammate to come pick you up, and the timer only going down while you're not being chased seems pretty self explanatory.
Taking a protection hit deactivating the basekit DH window is a way to prevent bully squads from trying to abuse it.
And endgame deactivating DH is just like current DH being deactivated.
On the killer side of things, I do love the speed boost after hook idea. It'd help out low mobility killers a lot, and most of the killers good enough not to need tunneling often have their own mobility options, so it definitely sounds to me like it's striking at a fundamental design trouble that the game's had for a while. It could also create a kind of "oh crud, I should try and hide while the killer is invigorated otherwise I'm gonna go down fast" moment that could add a lot of texture and variety to the average game. A bit of an ebb and flow to the killer's power level, if you will.
If a killer stays to close to a hooked survivor, the survivor should be transported to another hook. Like with cage of atonement.
So how do you make this change to not punish fair killers?
@@XenoVT Well it wouldn't punish fair killers, because they won't be standing too close to the hook for long enough, so the survivor won't move.
@@Supernautus Did you forget hook bombing is a thing? Lol it's going to be abused the same way the stupid suggestions of if a killer camps the entity won't progress or they can't use their power.
@@XenoVT Sure, but hook bombing happens the instant the killer hooks, the hook won't move that instant, this could trigger if the killer has been camping the hook for 20 seconds or more and isn't in chase. If someone rushes to unhook instantly you can get a free hit while they try, or even a grab
Yeah no
My my first thought, as someone who only watches the game now. Would be to give a speed boost for repairing gens if one survivor has been hooked atleast 2x more than then rest. So that if killer focuses one down, it literally makes the game faster and more likely they'd only be getting 1 kill. Said survivor could spend time annoying killer I guess.
Ngl some of these changes already make killer even harder to play I would recommend just base-kit pre-patched bbq and chili bp insensitive. It’s already hell to play killer and having the decisive strike would probably incentivize slugging or tunneling even more
The problem with any perk that punishes for tunneling is that a powerful punishment CAN and WILL be abused.
The dude with a DS, OTR and Unbreakable will get aggressive and waste your time. They still will not use their item, for simple reason - they don’t care, they only take the aggro to let their build work.
This was the case pre-6.1, this is the case now, this will be the case later.
And in any case these are all just band-aids. The real reason as to why people tunnel in the first place lyes in maps and spawns. You get into a game, 30 seconds later tinkerer procs.
You load onto a big/strong map, you find a survivor, you enter a chase, you hook a survivor. By this time over a minute usually passes on softcap MMR - unless you’re a nurse or the chased survivor messed up terribly.
In such a scenario up to 3 gens can be popped, leaving you with ONE hook on TWO gens - and you’ve done fairly well. If you don’t get rid of a survivor at that point - you are doomed. Unless you play nurse - and in this case no amount of anti-tunnel will stop you anyway.
No amount of band-aids will stop tunneling unless the core issue is solved.
The main problem I have with tunneling, is my experience has been purely toxic on the killers part. Getting hit on hook and other things has been to common for me. I don’t mind tunneling, it’s at least interactive unlike camping, but it doesn’t help there’s no punishment for it.
Why should it be punished? its not like Tunneling is against some rules or something. I agree that its overall to rewarding to Tunnel one survivor out. When i play killer i love to hook the same survivor twice because i simply know that many Survivors Tilt and go overboard on protecting the Near Death survivor even when i dont aim to tunnel them out. Its simple tactics
@@DezKaiZer Then I am sure you like boring games. I'm sure it gets really boring when a survivor holds W the whole game, since it's their equivalent of tunnelling or camping.
@@callofduty2551 You keep assuming that makes absolutely no sense
@@DezKaiZer What part of it makes no sense? Being a toxic boring shit as Killer is going to make Survivors want to be toxic boring shits. Perhaps not worry about the 4k every game, yeah? :)
if theres an unhook and you return to the hook area and see an injured survivor and a healthy survivor isnt just common sense to go for the injured one?..the idea that you should be punished for trying to kill a survivor as 'killer' is ludicrus
To the Anti-tunnel perks, i think buffing them is good, but i would change the conspicuous actions, unhooking and healing other survivors shouldn't be a conspicuous actions, but any use of flashlights, crouching, and body blocking should be, also if you don't run away you should lose your anti tunnel perks faster, basically if you try to use the anti-tunnel perks aggressively, looking to get aggro from the killer to get use of your anti-tunnel perks you loose them, that way we could have 5 or even 6 second DS, and OtR, BT and other Endurance effects except DH working if you are deep wounded, making it that you could easily need to get hit 3 times to get down if you are chased from the hook, but you loose all of that if you try to force the killer to chase you, oh, but BT shouldn't be a thing in the endgame collapse
A little thing that must also be done to kill tunneling is doing some changes to some killers
For example
Deathslinger can shoot a unhooked survivors and wait out the bt while the person can’t go anywhere
that would be your teammate failing to body block, deathslinger can't shoot right away cause deathslinger can't hold you for 10secs the chains will break!, thus you had time to begin with also your teammates can go through the chains and help it break. deathslinger can't put in dying state unless he m1's. more importantly get tunneling perks thats what they're for or do survivors require free bees on everything since 3 lives isnt enough.
Here's a fun perk idea.
When you are put into a dying state, the perk activates. If another survivor be put into a dying state you will automatically revive back out of your dying state.
Perk name: backstabber
It might stop some Killers for just knocking down to survivors all the time
i feel tunneling is the best way to get pressure, you can get free hits from body block, and pressuring the team to keep their weakest chain to stay alive thus giving more resources than the killer that don't tunnel
Even if you dont tunnel someone out hooking someone twice and bring him to death hook is a good way to panic the survivors and force them to "guard" the death hook survivor
I don't think tunneling is a problem, it's just the Killer rushing their objective, which makes it the equivalent of gen rushing. Survivors are gonna gen rush because it is their objective to do gens, and Killers are gonna tunnel because it is their objective to get kills. DbD is treated like a competitive game instead of a casual game like it was supposed to be, and so people are going to tunnel because it will always be good for the Killer. Unless you give the Survivor damage immunity until the Killer hooks another Survivor after they were unhooked, Killers will always tunnel. If BHVR did something like that, then gens would have to be blocked while a single Survivor is on a hook to compensate. This change would lead to its own problems in general. I just don't think there will ever be a solution to tunneling except just don't let the Killer catch you ever, and loop them for 5 gens.
What about a base kit Grim Embrace to the killers, currently not a really popular perk. Them change this perk to make the effect even strong, like BT does today.
Another great idea! I had the idea of basekit 10 second Deadlock.. but basekit Grim Embrace seems way better
Grim embrace is an ineffective slowdown, just add basekit bbq and the killer doesnt have to worry about finding a new survivor and leaves the hook
Please don't put light font on a light background, it's really hard to read. Otherwise good video
everyone be quiet, the king has spoken
You first
No You!
I feel that none of these really solve the problem, it's just like we're trying to distract the killer from tunneling with a carrot on a stick. We need a change that makes tunneling NOT the best choice.
The DbD board game does this well. Survivors share a pool of 8 hook states and when it's depleted, they all lose the game together. Most interestingly though: The first time a UNIQUE survivor is hooked, that counts as 2 hook states (they have a '+1 hook stage' token next to their player, which is used up when hooked). So if the killer spreads out their hooks across all unique survivors, they can win in only 4 hooks.
The Board Game is balanced around different numbers, but we could just scale those numbers up for Dead by Daylight. Something like, 10 hook stages total, where the first unique hook per survivor count as 2 instead of 1. The fastest that the killer can win is in 6 hook actions (first 4 on unique survivors are doubled to 8. +2 more after that on anyone = 10). The SLOWEST that a killer could win is by hooking the same survivor over and over again, which would take 9 hooks!!! You'd better believe that five gens and the exit gates get completed in that time, so the killer NEEDS to spread out their hooks in order to win.
Alternatively/Additionally, since it's important that the game doesn't end for all survivors because someone else was playing badly, each survivor could have 1 "safety" hook stage for themselves (think of this as the two tick marks next to each survivor). After the killer accrues 10 or 9 or 8 hook stages (up for discussion) cumulatively, they can kill any of the survivors that they hook next, but only if they've already been hooked once.
This means that to kill ANYONE, the killer needs to spread out their hooks. And for a survivor to BE KILLED they must have been hooked at least once before. The killer can still gets kills and win without hooking everyone first, but it'll take more total hook actions to do that. It's "not efficient."
For this to work smoothly, bots would need to replace survivors who disconnect. Otherwise there would be survivors that are dead before 10 total hook stages.
These are good ideas. CoH messed up the game and reduced the pressure trough hooks by a lot. I personally would like the change if CoH would act more as a AoE Botany Knowledge or other healing boost instead of infinite and fast self heal for everyone.
Also the BT change is also kind of nice, I could accept it not going down during chase IF the collision is removed.
DS on the other hand.... I personally think it should have another condition: If another survivor is hooked, DS deactivates. Its an anti tunnel perk. If the killer downs someone else and hooks them, then he manages to down you again, thats very far from tunneling. DS even as it is used offensively and to pull of saves in the killer face. This shouldnt be the case. If DS deactivates if another survivor is hooked, then its fine to raise the stun back to 5 sec.
These changes are great, but if the one with the time paused would come into the game also the Part with no collision must be used, cause if lets say you got a down near a hooked Person and the hooked Person gets unhooked the could bofyblock you still with endurance and you have to hit them if you want the hook on the other guy.
Honestly from what it sounds like, it seems that tunneling is a skill issue on the survivors part and not on the killer. If you just get better instead of rage quitting when your tunneled out you’d probably last longer in the chase.
I think DS needs three buffs.
1. Extend DS to 80 secs with paused timers for being in chase immediately after unhooked.
2. The level of DS is indicative of the stun time stating at 5secs for level one and being 7 secs or level three.
3. Killers can't use their power for so many seconds after getting hit with DS. This is primarily to counter nurse and blight.
My personal rule, as a killer main, is that I cannot go after the survivor I’ve most recently hooked, but aside from that everyone’s fair game.
But by tunneling you would win faster and you're not cheating or breaking any rules?
@@andreasul2608 I could if I wanted to, but I have enough survivor experience to know that it feels like crap when you get off the hook and are the next one hooked again. It's not necessarily breaking rules, but it keeps it more fun for the other team, which is something I do value. Also, did you watch the vid?? It's specifically talking about how this is a problem.
@@Finzombie I get that, but should'nt one use every advantage to fullfill the goal of your intended role? I mean, one doesn't become the best by doing charity. I get it if it was a glitch exploit or something similar like that, cause that would be cheating. But to me it just feels like playing a game of football, but since it feels bad for the other team to end up in offside we'll just break up the offside line and let them pass.
I just don't see the problem since the goal is to kill everyone as killer and by not doing so the most effective way, it's kinda counterproductive.
@@andreasul2608 That depends on how you play. Different people have different goals, and depending on how tryhardy or how casual a given player is, they may see different methods as valid or unethical. It's honestly a spectrum, and while I respect your sense of competition, I tend to aim for a more relaxed experience. It's purely a difference in ideation.
@@Finzombie So they would probably do this on a higher ranking? Say during an important tournament if there had been one, where the best would compete.
Probably the only video I've seen on this topic where I agreed with every single idea, and the person making the video wasn't obviously biased towards either side, kudos to you sir excellent video
This may seem really stupid, but what if the killer hooks the last survivor on death hook (every survivor has been hooked twice) the entity injures every survivor not on hook, if the survivor is injured they get deep wound. This sounds like an interesting last moment save for the killer! Also maybe incorporate an effect for hooking everyone once too, like seeing everybody's aura that's not on hook. Good job on the video btw! Lots of great ideas!
Uhhh no killer is buffed enough tf? Randomly getting injured out of nowhere? Trash
I’ve never seen a gaming community in such distress over a playstyle.
No mate, the reason why killers tunnel is due to gen rush.
One way I’ve always thought to counter tunneling is once the survivor is unhooked they can not be hit, no collision, or conspicuous actions. However they can heal teammates. If they unhook themselves or get unhooked in the killers terror radius it doesn’t work and works as is right now. If the doors are powered it would work as is right now. Now they’re are way to get around camping however I feel it would fix tunneling because the survivor can’t go down, literally they can’t go down, but they can’t progress the game majorly other than healing so then they are somewhat useful or have something to do. It’d also make some killers stronger like legion and other that can profit off of survivors being in close proximity. The survivor can’t take hits for other survivors because there’s no collision and they can’t be tunneled. Or do a variant of this method but if you do a conspicuous action it deactivated and you can get hit and/or tunneled out. If the killer really wants to tunnel they get punished by wasting a whole minute and lose a couple gens, if they don’t and go after others then you could lose less gens. Just what I think and I’m down for opinions to make this better.
If tunneling is a problem, it means that playing efficient is a problem. What about fixing gen rush then? 😹
Tunneling makes killer too efficient for survivors to have fun while not tunneling makes killer too inefficient to have fun. Fixing tunneling is making the game fun for both sides without imbalances being an issue. As he said, the changes he would make would encourage killers to not tunnel because they wouldn’t be applying as much pressure as they could. His changes could make the game fun for both sides and severely discourage tunneling.
And I know what your gonna reply to this comment with, “Why should I care about the other side’s fun?”
This entire video and comment is about making both sides more fun to play, I wouldn’t play DbD if killer or survivor wasn’t fun to play, and making it more fun will keep players in the game.
most that the killers start tunneling when they see that the gens are going pretty fast, as an idea, i think when 2 or more people are working on the same gen the debuff of speed should be increased, becose it is way to quick and with perks like prove thyself it makes the game last 5 minutes and as killer is really unpleasant
@@alphapollete7733 Exactly, as soon as 2-3 gens pop, and I have 0-2 hooks, I will tunnel. There's no other way to try and win. So I really liked the ideas presented on the video, specially the ones of disabling items for some time after unhooking, and making circle of healing only heal teammates. Another Idea I have, is to have base kit Deadlock, now it won't be 30 seconds, but maybe 10-15 seconds of basekit Deadlock would be perfect. That way gens don't start popping fast and at once. And it will reduce killers thinking they have to tunnel to win.
@@EdwinCristobal i think more than a base kit deadlock, its should be a basekit corrupt intervention of like 30 seconds, cause the chance that in the begining of the match 3 people hop on 3 diferent gens while u have to chase 1 survivor is very high, and its more likely that u would lose a match in the first 3 minutes of the game becose in that time for regular killers is very difficult or impossible to build pressure to win
@@imajoke3106 nah I agree with you they have good opinion on the game and I agree with some of their changes but generally when people are speaking about fixing tunneling they mean completely remove it
Killer main here....im ok with this....but since it isn't going to happen still sticking to what works ...make it a 3v1 as quickly as possible
Tunneling is often recognized as being hooked over and over again without anyone else being hooked. So if you make a condition out of that in the game mechanics, the fix will be very easy.
The right thing would be to bonus the unhooked survivor up until anyone else is hooked. You're off the hook and immediately got chased? No worries, here's your basekit haste and off the record. Killer actually dropped chase and decided to hook someone else? Your bonus is deactivated, but you're probably somewhere safe already. Someone else getting hooked is a decent indicator that you're probably not getting tunneled (at least not to the extreme).
Same logic could be applied to rework anti-tunnel perks such as DS, Off the record, Guardian, etc. Right now these perks offer you benefits only for a set period of time and if you idle (not doing any conspicious actions). Timeout or touching a gen is not a good indicator that you're not being tunneled. You could have ran into a corner of the map to heal or do a gen thinking that the chase is over, only to realize, that the killer spent this whole time searching for you specifically. But because you already performed a conspicious action, your protection has gone.
Having someone else hooked, imo, is a decent indicator that there's no hard tunneling. If you make it so that DS is activated upon being unhooked until *someone else is hooked* or the exit gates are powered, then the perk becomes much more viable, because it doesn't force you to idle to keep it active anymore.
7:20 That man really blinded mid-toss!? MEGA CHAD!
I agree with a lot of the points in this video. I play both sides of this game, which to some may weaken my argument but for others I hope it really shows that I look at both sides of this game as fun and both sides are needed for the other to have a match.
I played 100 games of solo queue back in December and out of 100 games, 61 players felt the need to give up. Some were killers, others were survivors. What would honestly fix this game is people learning that they can have fun and still lose while doing it. The mentality of giving up because something isn't going your way is just ending the game altogether if the killer gives up (which I had roughly 10 killers DC, so a 1 in 10.) or crippling the survivor team so hard when there are still 4 or 5 gens still up that you might as well have let yourself get tunneled out, at least that took more time from the killer and gave people a chance to do a gen.
So, what would honestly make the game a bit better is implementing something when there is a DC. Idk what you could do for if the killer DC's, because even a bot taking over would really only serve as half the challenge of an actual killer player, or if the bot were too strong possibly harder than that killer would have been had they stayed. But for a survivor, either a bot taking over with decent enough AI or something like providing a bonus to gen speeds if a survivor DC's to the remaining survivors. You could even maybe do something akin to what happens to Ruin if a survivor dies, and there are more gens than there are survivors remaining, buff gen speeds for those remaining survivors.
Maybe implement a base kit grim embrace or no way out for hooking every survivor? that way it doesn't steal a perk slot, but gives a nice effect to a killer who hooked everyone at least once before someone died. But even that could maybe be abusable, if say 3 hooks in someone DC's to prevent that 4th hook and then suddenly boom, buffed gen speeds if what I said above were also added. Because there's no way to stop someone from leaving or for what reason they left. Survivors leave match to give a teammate hatch all the time, or to prevent a pain res or pop goes the weasel proc. So how would this be any different?
It would be tough to really add anything else, but those are some ideas I had. As a killer player, I see the reasoning behind tunneling because it makes it feel like you have a chance to win without stressing out the entire match. Yet as a survivor, it sucks to lose a teammate early or be the one who dies early. Even if you tried to add another objective for survivors to do, if gens meant escape then what's making them do it? It's easy to point at problems like tunneling, it's harder to solve them, though I think a lot of the ideas in this video, while not all perfect, are a step in a better direction. Though the killer part of me would hate 5 second stuns for most of my games again like they used to be where survivors played a mini game of hopping in lockers and you either ate the stun or left them and let them work on a gen.... Because screw that. That was the worst. But I guess it made you not tunnel? Even then sometimes the only way to claw back into the game was to tunnel in those days, and that's still the case today sometimes. I'm ranting, now. So I'll stop here. But yeah, good video overall.
I think something this video doesn't address is just how important tunneling has become due to how fast generators pop, tunneling is a way to counteract gen rushing by making survivors 3/4 as effective as normal. This video highlights alot of ways to buff survivor perks and changes to how it works in order to stop tunneling but the issue could be resolved by not making tunneling nessasary in the first place to have a fighting chance
the one saving grace about tunneling is when you go out of your way to tunnel a good survivor (who wants my attention), instead of the inexperienced ones, this in my opinion is completely fair because that survivor wants to be chased, and I want to chase someone good, but this is not really tunneling in my opinion.
Most of these ideas aren't really that good
They disable the whole point of the perks of items
What I think would be a good change is if you hit someone you just unhooked you get hindered and the blindness status effect for 5 seconds or if you get into chase with them you gain no bloodlust until you drop chase
This way it'll make it to where nurse or blight can't keep up and the other killers won't be able to catch up as easily
It's the speed of the game man. Can we really expect the killer to win 9 chases before a single kill?
would be great if the devs did something about it. Right now, either side feels less and less fun to play the higher elo you go, because everything is about beeing as efficient as possible and not playing the game "the intended way".
I do like some of these ideas for killer, but there's a fundamental flaw where most of them assume that players are willing to do something for the greater good/slightly improved benefits, having played this game for a long time, originally as a killer main, you need to use the stick and not the carrot.
I've always said for camping for example, that there should be a large radius around the hook where if only the killer is inside it (while not in chase), and no survivors are inside, the hook progress is slowed. If the radius is large enough, this forces survivors to go and do gens/reset far away from the hook, meaning they can't abuse this slowed time because they have to spend a decently long time running back to the hook, and to the same extent, killers can't just hover on the edge of this radius to "camp" the hook, as there is enough distance that another survivor could get past them and unhook.
Tunneling is harder, yes, but that's why I think those survivor ideas are so much better because with some counterbalance (no collision), making anti-tunnel perks hit harder would work without feeling unfair. In the same way perhaps you could buff Off the Record to include a longer unhook haste effect with the no collision stipulation, because that was one of the biggest fears on the ptb, was 4 man off the record bully squads bodyblocking for each other (alternately you could have the endurance instantly end when you have been fully healed).
the biggest problem is there is NEVER going to be a chnage you can make that will change how impactful taking one person out of the game can be.
the difference between having to deal with 3 or only 2 alive survivors is ALWAYS going to be more enticing then any reward or boon or buff you offer the killer
With the animations of the characters and text your video has so much quality! And the ideas are very good as well
Great video! I'd like to add a thing about "accidental" tunneling. It's indeed a thing. For some reason many survivors, who unhooked their teammate, would instantly hide, leaving injured mate to the killers discretion.
Ofc it's a soloQ problem and people being dumb, but maybe we need some killer instinct on the unhooker? Just a small clue where this ratata is hiding.
Don't forget about the survivors who all wear the same cosmetic on purpose and then get mad that you "tunneled" lol
i get accused if tunneling because that and i tend not pay attention who already got and go for whos closer
As someone that plays killer I will say most the time I "tunnel" is when survivors have no clue what to do when rescuing. I have seen countless times when someone runs in the opposite direction of the person they save off of hook towards a strong loop while the person getting off hook goes to a deadzone... There are multiple instances where survivors do REALLY bad plays similar to the one just described (person getting off the hook taking protection hits to name one) to where the survivors deserve to be punished for playing poorly. I understand survivors all want to escape and have "fun" in whatever sadistic way floats your boat ie. flashies, sabos, teabags, etc. The killer wants the same thing, and unfortunately letting 4 people escape USUALLY consists of an "un-fun" game from the killers perspective. I have seen countless times survivors DC to prevent a mori style finisher (could be rancor/condemn etc.) then have their teammates try to flame the killer in endgame chat about why they didn't let the last person leave in hatch!? They will blame you saying I "tunneled" even though I was in a chase for 3 minutes and nobody went for the save. Heck, survivors have even complained about how I camped my TOTEM (pentimento) for the last 2 minutes of the game? Unfortunately, as much as the killers want survivors to have a good time and be fun for everyone, there is 4 times the number of survivors to killers. As such, Killers are more likely do experience the "bad apples" amongst survivors that ruin the basket for everyone and eventually lead to killers just not caring about survivors having fun to begin with. Like I said, why should I give a hatch escape if you dc before I can mori? I truly believe if the community as a whole all banned together to have fun nobody would be complaining about these problems. Unfortunately there are bad apples on both the survivor and killer side that will never change.
Well, mostly good ideas, aside from the item pause one. Killers have Franklin's Demise, if they hate items that much, they can just bring that.
One of my idea's is to make injured survivors do actions like repairing slower (because of the pain) but put the gen repairing time 10 seconds less for healthy survivors (as it was used to)
This would force the killer to stop tunneling and rather go on healthy survivors, or else the gens are going to be finished like it's nothing.
To be honest, the bloodpoints incentive for not tunneling was technically always there, BBQ had that effect and since they got rid of it then there's not much reason to use or to not tunnel neither, I kinda find tunneling a bit frustrating but it's a strategy anyways.
Two things i wanna add. First, players will still tunnel because it's human nature, they'll get mad because someone teabagged them and they'll get tunnel vision and seek revenge because someone teabagged them. Second, most people don't play enough of M1 killers to understand why they fail in chases so often. I'm an M1 killer main because M1 is how the game was built. With killers like Billy, Nurse and Huntress added to the game, it became a norm for killers to have abilities that could grant them better results than simply outlooping survivors. Trickster, Deathslinger, PyramidHead, Pinhead, Wesker, Blight, Artist, Doctor, all have abilities to zone survivors out of loops. This is bad because you created killers that counter looping but then you had to give survivors a way to outplay those killers so in the end you just made M1 killers weaker because now survivors are stronger in looping then they were when there only were M1 killers.
The 2 last M1 killers we've had are Ghostface and Sadako, one from 2019 and the other from 2022 if i'm not mistaken. Look how manny killers since 2019 to 2022 were all either ranged or Zonners. See and realise how the game changed and made M1 killers meaningless and made the game not for them. Anytime you see a killer tunnel it's most likely to be an M1 killer and those that are not M1 killers are tunnelling simply because they don't know any better. Tunneling works so people do it. They want to win they don't want anything else.
Reason why people are obsessed with that is because of MMR, they need to feel validated so the way to do that is to win and increase MMR, what they don't realise is that it doesn't matter if you have 2000 MMR or you're 1 single point above Cap, you're High MMR and everyone is High MMR because the Cap between brand new players and High MMR is very low, it's very easy to reach High MMR.
I find it super cringe whenever any streamer thinks they're really high MMR when reality is : yeah buddy you and 99% of the players are high MMR, we're all above that riddiculously low Cap. I've got 4 years of experience with DbD and i play with and against brand new players and experienced veterans above me everyday. SO this notion that only a chosen few are high MMR and thus worthy of being listened to is toxic af. Yeah you might actually be higher MMR than most but you're still pulling players from lower MMR cause that's how the system works. So you'll either get easier games then you're meant to or you'll die when you're not meant to because you've pulled weaker survivors and a decent enough killer.
Does it mean you're less skilled or more skilled? Nope, it only means matchmaking can't work properly because you're pulling from a gigantic spectrum of MMR. For MMR to work you need to have tiers and you need an indication on which tier you are and which tear the other 4 players involved are, even if there's no specific numbers you can at least give an educated guess as to what tier MMR your matches are and where you are placed. I think alot of people would be surprised to see that everyone is in fact High MMR despite their lack of skill.
7:17 omg that felix blinded him in the middle of being thrown
I think there should be a blood point bonus for being the first person killed, and make it based off of the total number of hooks. It won't stop tunneling, but the reward could make it feel less worse getting tunneled. Unfortunately I don't think tunneling will never be a bad strategy. The only changes I can think of to make tunneling weaker for a killer, end up making it a good choice for survivors.
I think the best option is just to reward players who don't tunnel and give rewards to players who get tunneled. Just trying to make it not feel as bad to get tunneled on the survivor side or to make killers feel better for getting 6 hooks, but no kills.
Honestly i don't know if this is too much, but i would make it so everytime you hook a different survivor, the speed of generator repairs slows down 5% and it caps at 20% permanently, survivors and killers are gonna be able to keep track of the stack with an icon on the side of the screen. and if the killer keeps doing it after the cap, they get a short haste for 10 seconds after each hook. This is basically a very agressive playstyle paired up with info perks like barbecue makes the game more fun in my opinion. But i will say it again, it's only an opinion and it might not sound good to everyone.
Change 3 for killer feels like it would make tunnelling much stronger. A lot of the times I think people tunnel because gens get rushed otherwise. Which like also feels bad. Turning off a survivor’s items just gives them another thing they can’t do to stop a tunneller
I like the idea of some sort of base kit Grim Embrace-esque effect, like revealing all the survivors or reducing their action speed (the constant hooking takes it’s toll or the entity is pleased by your evenly dispersed hatred or something). Although maybe grim embrace just needs a buff…
The issue with grim embrace is finding the survivors that havent been hooked
I would make Grim embrace be able to trigger twice.
If you play in the "nicest" way possible as killer you could get 80 seconds of extra time. If you hook all survivors equally.
I think making that duration up to 100 seconds so 50 per trigger would be strong and a very good way to motivate going for unique hooks. They need to make these kinds of perks good for the meta because it directly affects killer playstyles.
My biggest suggestion to make tunneling less effective is to add the aura reading part of off the record basekit for about 30 seconds. It's something that feels unnecessary for OtR right now, and would be a good quality of life improvement for Survivor. Also, have scourge hooks shuffle after you either don't get a scourge hook for 2 hooks in a row, or you've gotten a scourge hook 2 hooks in a row. It would help counter camping while also making it easier to reach scourge hooks when they're in horrible spots.
What makes this even worse is that BHVR endorses tunneling, and I say that because their community cup makes tunneling almost a necessity to win as the killer for your team. I played against a wraith who was training for one, and he tunneled out a random. He says that he has to do it because his chances of winning increases if he does, but if he doesn't that chance decreases