As a control systems engineer this shows an important point most people miss - Don't try and control a physical system faster than it can respond! It usually doesn't end well. I would be interested to know what would happen if the traction control input could be rate limited - ie. instead of oscillating wildly between 27 and 9, do it "slowly" over 0.3 seconds or something.
Great stuff...not to mention the torsional vibrations through the drivetrain as the engine is speeding up and slowing down on a super fine level from moment to moment...
Hello Steve I'm not a racer. I'm not a huge car guy. Heck I haven't even owned a car the past 5 years. But your content still speaks to me and I enjoy it so much! Keep doing what you're doing with youtube, your personality, knowledge and passion to teach attracts people from all sorts of fields. much love from switzerland
That’s one Smart Mofo right there. Luv the intricate detail on the amount of times the engine actually does cycles. Thanks mate. Keep this coming. I’m running a FT system and can learn so much from it. 🇦🇺🇦🇺
I started out tuning on MegaSquirt and Hondata and UTEC and several others, back in the day...bloody hell but was a long ride learning how to street tune, a ride through a good few motors...... and not having to pull EPROM's and build a flashing jig was an EPIC advancement(for MOST tuning, anyway)...anyway.....I have known some pretty great tuners over the years, and I can tell you this from my experience over the last 30ish years. I have seen some maps and driven some cars that were supposed to be 'tuned' by 'somebody who is supposed to know what they were doing' who OBVIOUSLY didnt....seeing Steve pull apart this tune to SHOW why it could have been done better is a joy to watch!!!! I used to call these wonky timing issues created by guys who really didnt KNOW... 'timing cliffs'....and then 'lets watch this tune fall off the cliff!!!' and then the magic smoke ensues and.....yeah.... When Steve speaks, LISTEN TO EVERY WORD. You WILL profit. Steve, you get me wanting to dust off the old TOUGHBOOK laptop and cables and start data logging again....lol i wonder if it would all still work... 0_o
Makes sense. You use the same timing fluctuations to create heat at low rpm to help build boost quicker (hotter exhaust). If the timing is doing this same type of fluctuation at high rpm. It's going to keep building excess heat, as your egt's show. Man, that's cool to see you break down and then extrapolate the root cause/s of the failure/s using blended data streams. You can literally see it without having to model it. IE: You know your cr@p. Always entertaining! Thank You
Steve I am so fascinated with your knowledge, keep it up I am turning 65 in November and being a retired mechanic after 48 years I totally understand your thought process in figuring out these issues, and yes I forget a lot of stuff keep your brain alive as I am relaxing a lot more now and enjoying life here in Arizona..
If its the one on the opening pic, its fucked up. I just noticed it when I was going to click on the video. Steve would have to confirm that its the same one. Joe
Your description makes a ton of sense. Getting fuel pushed into the rings when it pulls it back and then giving it full load is a great way to detonate in your ring lands.
I’m no professional engine builder like Steve but my guess is it most likely I would think it got too hot from the excessive timing retard (the excessive exhaust temps) but detonation is also possible due to excess fuel in the chambers that suddenly fires earlier when the timing goes back up. So probably both like you said! 😉
While the TC is pulling 1/2 the power out, it's putting 2X normal heat into the pistons and combustion chambers for a total of what, ~8 seconds (staging+run) before letting the engine put out max HP the last 1/2 second. It's too hot and late at that point to expect max power output, detonation/meltdown is inevitable. Look up 2618 aluminum properties at 500-600 degrees F. It'll need unobtanium internals to withstand that torture test.
it's the changes to timing causing flux on valve return time which is causing induction pressure flux which then resonates into rich/lean per length of intake. the turbulence evens itself out by way of the amount of surface area available. imagine a garden hose with low water pressure, if you hold it vertically over a container with water in it, at the correct distance for the pressure and flow rate it will run silently with almost no surface ripples. too far away and the resistance of the turbulent air disrupts the density of the water coming out of the hose which then equalizes against the surface tension of the water, making noise and turbulence.. same kind of thing but in this example its making most cylinders far too rich and the other 2 far too lean. (path of least resistance gets the induction.) tell him to take longer to build the boost or adjust his boost controller to be more agressive with less timing pull?
also, the thermal conduction to the temperature sensors at fluxing density and pressure (due to rich / lean / vapour, low pressure / no vapour, high pressure) that last part where the temperatures spike is more likely just the temperature sensor being able to function properly when the flux stops. the cylinders were accumulating temperature the whole time. short time high energy proportions are quadratic afaik.. the likelyhood of the temperature reading measuring accurately such a peak is low because the amount of extra energy at the already leaned out cylinders required would be huge. like, a stick or three of dynamite extra energy spread over that last 0.2 seconds.
They really can’t take any longer to build boost. 6 seconds is already really pushing it. Remember he has about 7 seconds to get into the beams once his opponent lights his bulbs (assuming they aren’t using “courtesy”staging). And smart opponents will take note of a very slow spooling turbo car and can take advantage of it when staging. Retarding the timing like what Steve showed (and was not concerned about) to build boost prior to staging is not the problem. The engine is at much lower rpm’s and not under any load. It’s the almost on/off timing during the run that is creating the problem.
I have a Gen3 Hemi with an EFI Source Goldbox and use Tuner Studio to program everything. I'm a dummy when it comes to the technical stuff and have had help from someone who's learning me on how to use it. I find all this technical stuff that you show very informing. I'll never use traction control but when you explain things like you do I can understand them and it makes sense enough I can apply some of it to what I'm doing.
He’s not saying don’t use traction control, he’s saying don’t use it incorrectly! This car was using the traction control to make the entire pass! Even Steve uses traction control!
make MANY fine adjustments, KNOW which map is which!!!.....keep all your datalogs!!! KNOCK is BAD....dont let it do that.... and if you cant afford to toast the motor.....STOP....until you can afford to toast the motor. Especially if its FI
Lol I just said this on Drtuneemall’s video, everyone is applying the tech wrong. Took me a couple engines, love knowing I’m not the only one out here learning…. After watching the whole video, they’re definitely missing the solution. You can ride TC all the way if your TC is not a timing based solution. ignition timing is a partial answer to any traction control system, go talk to any pro street drag bike guy.
Are you also using boost control and/or throttle position? Would love to know the secrets to this - I had heard the two of those are too slow at responding to be super useful and actually slow you down. My TC is configured to just pull up to 12° timing (I stopped there to limit EGT) then if requesting over say 30% torque reduction it also cuts up to 20% ignition (ramped in gradually while keeping the timing reduction the same). This is just enough to give driver feedback about wheelspin and limit the effects, in a 300hp fwd car. So you end up still accelerating, rather than spinning the wheels on the spot on a launch or understeering into a curb coming out of a corner. The car is for 50/50 street and circuit use so nothing like V8 drag stuff in the video. Ideally you hear the ignition cut, and ease back on the throttle a little bit if you have any mechanical sympathy too.
Couldn't they soften the traction control as well. That seems like a pretty large swing in timing for being moving and on kill. Yours and Tom's cars sound more like a little bobble when they get into the traction control. I've never been a fan of violent loud traction control. Seems hard on the engine for dry sump and hard on oil pump gear for more standard cars.
Will it actually make the AFR read richer because of the poor combustion and therefore have the ecu take more fuel out ? I know its in the target AFR but when you have all these bad firing events is the AFR actually mis representing itself as being good. Like when you have a bad spark plug and the ecu Leans that whole bank because your actually down a hole and it doesn't. Im probably wrong but i love where your videos take me.
I think this is more likely the root cause. Retarded timing raises egt and puts excessive heat in the exhaust valve and everything after it, but shouldn't cause any extra heat in the cylinder/piston/plug. Likely running a bit leaner than the afr shows and maybe the same cylinders burning down because the setup gets slightly more air or less fuel to those burning up.
Steve I could work for you and have a ton of fun learning and wrenching on these super nice rides. 25 yr auto tech shop owner here! I absolutely envy your ability to teach! Your explanations make total sense and the way you convey them is fantastic! I also admire that what appears to be your desk is still in the shop and not a closed off from the world office space. Keep ‘em coming. Maybe we will meet some day
I've always said this with electronic controls and nannies on cars. You can make a car fast with electronic wizardry, but it's a lot better to design it to be "mechanically" fast to start with. Traction and stability control are amazing things, but they are no replacement for a car designed to go fast without them.
I’m all for electronic controls, I’ve ran electronic controls for years and it just has to be tuned properly like everything else. However, it’s going to amplify characteristics of whatever your base mechanical traits are to begin with. I hate electronic aids as a band-aid, they work wonderfully to put a razor edge on an already fine sword though.
@@captainobvious9188 Yeah, I would agree with that. Fuel injection is a wonderful thing and lets you turn a lot of dials and play with a lot of things that are difficult or impossible to do with a typical carb for insurance. But agreed you need to tune them right to start with. It would be like throwing a generic tune in a car and letting O2 feedback do all the work. Yes, it might function, but it's always going to be reactive and trying to "fix" things, not run directly to begin with.
This is just a flawed control system. A lot of tuners / mechanics / software devs etc. never had a control systems engineering course and this is what you get. If you want a system where you can let it do the work for you and ride it right on the edge perfectly you need far higher sampling rate and effective system bandwidth than most ICE automotive traction control systems can offer. Tesla is a good example, you can stand on the pedal and they just give you everything the surface and tires can give. The wonders of a stable control system with high enough bandwidth.
Makes you wonder (without knowing the valve event timing and fuel type) if its pulled enough timing to afterburn the cyls, goes whoosh instead of bang. Cool follow up video would be of the piston and ring lands. Drill the top of the pistons to see if there was enough heat/cold cycling to cause annealing. --very instructional video (grabs laptop to change tune ;))
That is exactly why tuners retard timing to get the turbo(s) to spool. Retarding the timing results in the bang happening so late that a lot of the bang goes out the exhaust ports which both heats up and accelerates the exhaust pulses being fed to the turbine side of the turbo. Manual trans turbo cars have historically gotten the most extreme with this on the starting line given they have nothing to push against like a converter to build boost. Hence why those suckers typically really bang and pop on the starting line.
@@danmyers9372exactly as I (longtime racing fan/viewer) envisioned was happening. I’ve also wondered how much leftover fuel detention in the pipes was happening in some of these tunes.
Hey Steve, While I generally agree with the premise of delayed ignition causing higher cylinder temps, it should drop combustion temps because your pressures are lower. Another note is that the waviness you are seeing in the manifold pressure is likely the swings in the efficiency of the engine changing the rate at which the engine can pull in air, which sends pulses through the intake because the impeller has enough inertia that it wants to stay at a constant speed. Otherwise, it's nice to see an explanation in laymans terms on this kind of stuff!
Thanks for putting this information out! I'm just getting back into the serious racing scene after being gone for about 20 years. As it said "back in the day" we ran carbs and didn't have these fancy electronics and traction control back then was the heaviness of your right foot which the engine could keep up with. These fast electronics are capable of switching 200 times per second and making those massive swings is going to lead to carnage. I'm betting it's more than just a couple of pistons. I wouldn't be surprised if the bearings didn't suffer due to harmonics as well. My theory is to leave the traction control loose to prevent MAJOR wheel slippage in the first 3 seconds of the run (on a mid 5 second car 1/8 mile) but allow a little wheel speed. Engines are expensive, WAY more than any 10 purses you could potentially win!
I have a 2009 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0 Liter V8 with a Magnuson Supercharger, Headers, Cam and other performance options. It was Dyno Tuned and it is a Beast! I was told by the shop that did the mods to absolutely Never Run Traction Control if I tracked the car or planned to run the car hard. They told me, simply put, the opposing forces could destroy the engine. If you run a high performance car please take this wise advice. 👍
One of the reasons electronic engines have not taken over the top end diesel stuff is because they don't yet have the electronics at the level to be able to reliably cycle as fast as the mechanical stuff currently the common rail stuff starts to fall apart beyond 5000rpm I believe while the mechanical stuff can go 7k.
the traction control science was what racers need to here. I my self thought that has to be extra hard on all the drive parts. I do know what that engine go threw.
I come from a Nitrous background starting in the mid-90's till even now, I still do Nitrous stuff here and there. I remember when the 7531/7531T came out. We never used the T. We always made the car work by chassis adjustment, taking a little more timing out, disabling a stage or two, timing them out further, running the progressive out more, depending on the track or when in mexico. It seems a lost art anymore! Make the car work it's best without relying on a crutch such as traction control, when it's best at a bad track then click on the traction control to where it barely needs to compensate to get a good pass. On a good track it will do well and won't even come close to getting on TC. My two cents!
Is traction control adjustable by percentage over time? I guess maybe the question is, can you set a curve for it or is it just on or off? Asking for my dog, he's the curious type...
Yes, you set a curve for it based on driveline speed from a pass. How close you place it below or above the line then determines how you far you want the ECU to let it go before pulling timing. This is what Steve is talking about when he talks about z”tightening up the traction control”. Moving the line closer to the driveshaft curve. At least this is how it works in Holley. Not sure about the more expensive, dedicated systems like Davis.
Oh this is a good one. Think you mentioned this when the spark plug blew out. Ive been learning about traction control strategies and was wondering if running excessive timing retard and dropping cylinders could cause engine issues. Everyone raves about the Davies technology setup. Thanks fir sharing.
AWESOME VIDEO Steve! I've never heard this concept (which has been touched on by others) explained so perfectly before. EVERYone tuning an engine for quartermile should understand this.
Just imagine the vibrations/harmonics induced by this strategy... might really hurt parts in a short period of time. But that final stretch with advanced timing and scorching valves/plugs maybe detonated it all.
Good points.......Do you suggest only keeping traction control active for a few seconds from transbrake release or just making it so that it cannot pull as much timing down track?
Watching this helped me understand my engine failure more in depth. I do appreciate that! It also will help me set up a better tune, and understand the mechanical limitations of my setup. Great info!
The numbers were making sense until I lost the pointer/cursor....and I am not a math guy......WHEN WILL YOU BUILD A TIME MACHINE, STEVE? WAIT, YOU ALREADY DO......
Hell Steve I'm still old school ! Traction control is still the right foot ! 712 Big Block Ford ,C460 headed , Ford C6, 4 stages of NOS on Digiset timers , A 40, 36, 28 ,18 , Ignition controlled by a Holley Annihilator ignition ,6,80-90's@ 213-16 , "93 Ford Mustang , and we do leak a few pistons out the header pipes every year! lol 92@
Great explanation 😮 Steve. Yes, we saw the hurt piston, twice! Thanks for the lesson, and the data. It all makes sense when the engine builder points out exactly what is going on!😢 from now on this will be a happy engine, with a happy tune! By the 330 there should be enough traction, mechanically❕️to produce a cleaner tune for the rest of the close to 1k' of track that is left.😅 😮oh,🎵 happy days🎵. 🍎 thanks for the clear lesson.😊 Is it tougher to mechanically make traction after the 330' on a small tire (radial) car? (Dah)🥴. ☕️⏳️😋 ⚠️✌🏻❤️ 🇨🇦🤙🤘🖖🏻.
"Traction control is there to save the run, not make the run" says it all. That's kind of like using (relying on) closed loop correction to make up for a bad or incomplete fuel table...
Hey, I just realized something during your math segment, I agree with everything your saying. But wouldn't it be 8000 RPM. meaning 8000 rotations per minute. So it would be 4000 rotations per minute, and 66.6repeating per minute not per second? I mean that's still a hell of a lot of speed. Just wanted clarification.
The way you did the math, 8000rpm/2= 4000/60=66.6*10%=~6,, that’s just for one cylinder, 8 cylinders popping off per 2 rotations would be 48 compression events.
Is there a better way to perform "traction-control", let's say carefully adjust the boost, the wastegates and/or the fuel-rates? I am asking about the fuel rates, because E100 creates much more boost per lambda than normal fuel. E100 is still burning at Lambda 65 and then creating a lot more exhaust gases. So playing with the fuel-mixture could help also. I do not mean mixture in the tank. I know you have two fuel-systems, so mixing means to inject more from one fuel-system and at the same time less from the other one.
lowing boost is too slow to react to save a tyre from spinning. dbw throttle works well, pretty much how every single oem modern street car does it that said no oem street car has 2000hp so on and off the throttle could have similar impacts as this timing based TC.
@dragpix sounds pretty complicated. How about a combination of everything available. - boost - boost by gear - life-fuel-mixture/-rate - throttle - timing - breakes I expect, with "boost by gear" and rear axle RPM, it should be possible to be only slightly above what the tires are able to cope with. When you then use the rest of the available parameters to keep them away from violently spinning, is it then possible to have traction-control and not hurt the engine or the brakes?
@@dragpixControlling by dbw is still quite slow compared to timing. To maximise use of the available grip, torque has to be adjusted very quickly. This is why electric cars can be so good in this regard, they can adjust ~1000 times per second. With timing, at eg 8000 rpm, can adjust ~67 times per second. Dbw is still quite slow not entirely because of the speed of the throttle but because the pressure in the manifold must change to reduce torque, which required the manifold to but pumped out by the engine.
So F...cool explanation. Its funny because as a cleetus, PFI, KSR and Steve viewer, when I've seen the title/intro I was already, guessing what was probably the problem. Its n9ce to see content, enjoy it and even learning from it! Thanks Steve !
Hey steve, could i have a rip down the track with you in wagon? You truly are a man of knowledge. Definitely don’t mind helping keeping your customer happy!!
It it possible to cut fuel and spark for a cylinder per cycle to fully utilize traction control with less negative impact? Once target retard hits -4 put the timing back and cut a cylinder instead? Target -8 put another 4 back and drop 2 cylinders. So on and so forth. Direct injection needed for that?
Ran 5.20s For 2 years with NONE of the electronics.. Trams break, 2 step. If I had the $ to make the power your making I dare say it woulda been faster.. Kinda cheating if ya ask me.
People using traction control for their lack of tuning or driving ability or both.. its just like a new boat owner thats never used a boat or backed up a trailer. Its called the "More MONEY than BRAINS club"
Uh oh critical thinking skills. Well there goes 80% of people nowadays lol … ok 95% of people, I’m not the smartest guy but I do try to think things threw. Nobody likes doing something twice for no reason. What’s that saying, buy it right or buy it twice! Same principle applies
Steve I’m learning so much from your channel. Even though lm 68 years old and drive a 60s muscle car I’m learning something new on every episode. BTW I only live 15 minutes from Rosslers shop and it’s great to hear a local guy being mentioned on your channel. Keep teaching!
Retarded timing should make the combustion cooler including piston and plug, and exhaust valve, manifold, etc hotter. I don’t think the explanation is correct. Given the widely varying EGTs, most likely there some cylinders are getting more air compared to fuel and detonation is occurring because of that, or improper combustion is occurring for some other reason (need more info).
Steve please build boost simple and east to wire. ONE BUTTON. When the trans brake is on-so is a solenoid to squirt fuel in the exhaust pipes to spin up the turbo. Too easy, end of problems. I an retired TA/FC Crew chief
EGTs show it, 1st piston went away at 2.5sec, traction control basically all stopped when the 2nd piston went away at 3 sec, wasn't making power, cuz it was hurt, wasn't spinning the tires so traction control stopped. EGTs were way high because the ignition was so far retarded it couldn't burn the fuel before it went out the exhaust valve.
Saving my engine parts 1 day at a time, with Dr. Steve!! Dang I have learned a lot from you brother! I know you have learned a lot in your walk as well. I truly enjoyed this video, thank you Sir. Now if I only had a hot rod with enough power for traction control… wha wha wha.
I know every engine combo is diff, but we no prep race (not running the power to make a 4.50 pass lol) but let traction grab it to help keep it under control and run low 5s on a crap surface. I've never seen my traction look like that either, it'll grab here and there or hold the timing and ease it back in, may be why we haven't had an issue with it. But makes perfect sense how you explained it mathematically. Always enjoy watching your videos and the advice you always give out 💪
Spoke to a well known tuner about this and he said their car would blow up every round of pulling that much timing was seriously detrimental to the engine. Their car is making less than 2000whp, but close to that number and is mostly an 1/8 mile car. Is your engine (because of the higher hp) more on the edge of failure and more sensitive to big timing changes making peak power? More in depth discussion would be appreciated!
It's not so much that Traction Control is bad it's that you aren't supposed to lean on it like a crutch - likewise a knock sensor in a production car. Can it? Sure! Is it a great idea? Burned piston says nope. Steve's got it exaclty right. I'm surprised the customer didn't realize what was going on themselves...
This really seems like the traction control is being stupid and needs rework. It shouldn't be pulling power and adding it all back in that rapidly. Decrease the wheel slip sample rate, make it pull throttle, etc. If this was a Tesla then hell yeah you want it to be adjusting power a thousand times per second...because the motor can keep up with that.
What traction control does to a turbocharged RX-8: it rips the transmission out, first hand experience. It bogged down, roared back and ripped out the lowest gears.
When the timing is pulled back would fuel be washing the cylenders down? Also would the pistons and rings get hot from lack of lubrication? If the first part is true.
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As a control systems engineer this shows an important point most people miss - Don't try and control a physical system faster than it can respond! It usually doesn't end well. I would be interested to know what would happen if the traction control input could be rate limited - ie. instead of oscillating wildly between 27 and 9, do it "slowly" over 0.3 seconds or something.
Well explained Steve, and in layman's terms that actually makes sense, this channel just gets better and better.
Great stuff...not to mention the torsional vibrations through the drivetrain as the engine is speeding up and slowing down on a super fine level from moment to moment...
Hello Steve
I'm not a racer.
I'm not a huge car guy.
Heck I haven't even owned a car the past 5 years.
But your content still speaks to me and I enjoy it so much! Keep doing what you're doing with youtube, your personality, knowledge and passion to teach attracts people from all sorts of fields.
much love from switzerland
Same here. I love learning new things and this man is full of knowledge and mighty fine at explaining it! 👌🏽
OMG......
Give me some of that nazi gold !
That’s one Smart Mofo right there. Luv the intricate detail on the amount of times the engine actually does cycles. Thanks mate. Keep this coming. I’m running a FT system and can learn so much from it. 🇦🇺🇦🇺
I started out tuning on MegaSquirt and Hondata and UTEC and several others, back in the day...bloody hell but was a long ride learning how to street tune, a ride through a good few motors...... and not having to pull EPROM's and build a flashing jig was an EPIC advancement(for MOST tuning, anyway)...anyway.....I have known some pretty great tuners over the years, and I can tell you this from my experience over the last 30ish years. I have seen some maps and driven some cars that were supposed to be 'tuned' by 'somebody who is supposed to know what they were doing' who OBVIOUSLY didnt....seeing Steve pull apart this tune to SHOW why it could have been done better is a joy to watch!!!!
I used to call these wonky timing issues created by guys who really didnt KNOW... 'timing cliffs'....and then 'lets watch this tune fall off the cliff!!!' and then the magic smoke ensues and.....yeah....
When Steve speaks, LISTEN TO EVERY WORD.
You WILL profit.
Steve, you get me wanting to dust off the old TOUGHBOOK laptop and cables and start data logging again....lol i wonder if it would all still work... 0_o
Makes sense. You use the same timing fluctuations to create heat at low rpm to help build boost quicker (hotter exhaust). If the timing is doing this same type of fluctuation at high rpm. It's going to keep building excess heat, as your egt's show. Man, that's cool to see you break down and then extrapolate the root cause/s of the failure/s using blended data streams. You can literally see it without having to model it. IE: You know your cr@p. Always entertaining! Thank You
Now imagine, on the 2 step it's making like 10/15 pounds... and suddenly it's making 35...45...with the same kind of timing fluctuation... crazy.
Steve I am so fascinated with your knowledge, keep it up I am turning 65 in November and being a retired mechanic after 48 years I totally understand your thought process in figuring out these issues, and yes I forget a lot of stuff keep your brain alive as I am relaxing a lot more now and enjoying life here in Arizona..
Very interesting. Would love to see a pic of the piston damage caused by this.
If its the one on the opening pic, its fucked up. I just noticed it when I was going to click on the video.
Steve would have to confirm that its the same one.
Joe
Your description makes a ton of sense. Getting fuel pushed into the rings when it pulls it back and then giving it full load is a great way to detonate in your ring lands.
Thanks again Professor Morris, another great lesson today !!!
Interesting
Given the explanation, I assume the piston either melted or suffered detonation damage…or both
I’m no professional engine builder like Steve but my guess is it most likely I would think it got too hot from the excessive timing retard (the excessive exhaust temps) but detonation is also possible due to excess fuel in the chambers that suddenly fires earlier when the timing goes back up. So probably both like you said! 😉
While the TC is pulling 1/2 the power out, it's putting 2X normal heat into the pistons and combustion chambers for a total of what, ~8 seconds (staging+run) before letting the engine put out max HP the last 1/2 second. It's too hot and late at that point to expect max power output, detonation/meltdown is inevitable. Look up 2618 aluminum properties at 500-600 degrees F.
It'll need unobtanium internals to withstand that torture test.
Flipping the light switch on and off as fast as you can is hard on stuff! Guess that is why dad yelled at us when we did that as kids. 😉
it's the changes to timing causing flux on valve return time which is causing induction pressure flux which then resonates into rich/lean per length of intake. the turbulence evens itself out by way of the amount of surface area available.
imagine a garden hose with low water pressure, if you hold it vertically over a container with water in it, at the correct distance for the pressure and flow rate it will run silently with almost no surface ripples. too far away and the resistance of the turbulent air disrupts the density of the water coming out of the hose which then equalizes against the surface tension of the water, making noise and turbulence.. same kind of thing but in this example its making most cylinders far too rich and the other 2 far too lean. (path of least resistance gets the induction.)
tell him to take longer to build the boost or adjust his boost controller to be more agressive with less timing pull?
also, the thermal conduction to the temperature sensors at fluxing density and pressure (due to rich / lean / vapour, low pressure / no vapour, high pressure) that last part where the temperatures spike is more likely just the temperature sensor being able to function properly when the flux stops. the cylinders were accumulating temperature the whole time. short time high energy proportions are quadratic afaik.. the likelyhood of the temperature reading measuring accurately such a peak is low because the amount of extra energy at the already leaned out cylinders required would be huge. like, a stick or three of dynamite extra energy spread over that last 0.2 seconds.
108 sticks of dynamite in 1 gallon of methanol. for reference.
They really can’t take any longer to build boost. 6 seconds is already really pushing it. Remember he has about 7 seconds to get into the beams once his opponent lights his bulbs (assuming they aren’t using “courtesy”staging). And smart opponents will take note of a very slow spooling turbo car and can take advantage of it when staging. Retarding the timing like what Steve showed (and was not concerned about) to build boost prior to staging is not the problem. The engine is at much lower rpm’s and not under any load. It’s the almost on/off timing during the run that is creating the problem.
Could this problem be “avoided” by using electronic throttle body and throttle closure for “traction control” vs timing based tsc system?
I have a Gen3 Hemi with an EFI Source Goldbox and use Tuner Studio to program everything. I'm a dummy when it comes to the technical stuff and have had help from someone who's learning me on how to use it. I find all this technical stuff that you show very informing. I'll never use traction control but when you explain things like you do I can understand them and it makes sense enough I can apply some of it to what I'm doing.
He’s not saying don’t use traction control, he’s saying don’t use it incorrectly! This car was using the traction control to make the entire pass! Even Steve uses traction control!
This has big swings of timing, it is like fuel correction a little is fine but a lot is bad.
make MANY fine adjustments, KNOW which map is which!!!.....keep all your datalogs!!! KNOCK is BAD....dont let it do that.... and if you cant afford to toast the motor.....STOP....until you can afford to toast the motor. Especially if its FI
Your learning someone is teaching you. 🙄🙄
@@dalelc43
You're not using your apostrophe.
(My smartazz couldn't resist anD my meds haven't kicked in yet.)🙃😉
Lol I just said this on Drtuneemall’s video, everyone is applying the tech wrong. Took me a couple engines, love knowing I’m not the only one out here learning…. After watching the whole video, they’re definitely missing the solution. You can ride TC all the way if your TC is not a timing based solution. ignition timing is a partial answer to any traction control system, go talk to any pro street drag bike guy.
Are you also using boost control and/or throttle position? Would love to know the secrets to this - I had heard the two of those are too slow at responding to be super useful and actually slow you down.
My TC is configured to just pull up to 12° timing (I stopped there to limit EGT) then if requesting over say 30% torque reduction it also cuts up to 20% ignition (ramped in gradually while keeping the timing reduction the same).
This is just enough to give driver feedback about wheelspin and limit the effects, in a 300hp fwd car. So you end up still accelerating, rather than spinning the wheels on the spot on a launch or understeering into a curb coming out of a corner. The car is for 50/50 street and circuit use so nothing like V8 drag stuff in the video. Ideally you hear the ignition cut, and ease back on the throttle a little bit if you have any mechanical sympathy too.
Thanks Steve for really going through and explaining this to us👍👍👍
So from your comments I'm guessing that a poorly firing engine (form electronics) @8000rpm doesn't always perform the best - who knew - lol.
Got my shirt freedom, so an I entered into the giveaway motor in American motor now ??? 👍👍👍👍👍🙏✅👀thanks BigAl California.
Couldn't they soften the traction control as well. That seems like a pretty large swing in timing for being moving and on kill. Yours and Tom's cars sound more like a little bobble when they get into the traction control. I've never been a fan of violent loud traction control. Seems hard on the engine for dry sump and hard on oil pump gear for more standard cars.
Will it actually make the AFR read richer because of the poor combustion and therefore have the ecu take more fuel out ? I know its in the target AFR but when you have all these bad firing events is the AFR actually mis representing itself as being good. Like when you have a bad spark plug and the ecu Leans that whole bank because your actually down a hole and it doesn't. Im probably wrong but i love where your videos take me.
I think this is more likely the root cause. Retarded timing raises egt and puts excessive heat in the exhaust valve and everything after it, but shouldn't cause any extra heat in the cylinder/piston/plug. Likely running a bit leaner than the afr shows and maybe the same cylinders burning down because the setup gets slightly more air or less fuel to those burning up.
I'm surprised it didn't burn a valve too. Retarded timing builds heat extremely fast!
Will it work, yes.
Will it go fast, maybe.
Will it cost you bucket loads of cash, absolutely.
Steve I could work for you and have a ton of fun learning and wrenching on these super nice rides. 25 yr auto tech shop owner here! I absolutely envy your ability to teach! Your explanations make total sense and the way you convey them is fantastic! I also admire that what appears to be your desk is still in the shop and not a closed off from the world office space. Keep ‘em coming. Maybe we will meet some day
That was RAD, i love when you explain data like that. Very educational.
Keep doin what your doin !
I've always said this with electronic controls and nannies on cars. You can make a car fast with electronic wizardry, but it's a lot better to design it to be "mechanically" fast to start with. Traction and stability control are amazing things, but they are no replacement for a car designed to go fast without them.
Couldn’t agree more. Feels like you need to custom build these days to get the vehicle you actually want.
I’m all for electronic controls, I’ve ran electronic controls for years and it just has to be tuned properly like everything else. However, it’s going to amplify characteristics of whatever your base mechanical traits are to begin with. I hate electronic aids as a band-aid, they work wonderfully to put a razor edge on an already fine sword though.
@@captainobvious9188 Yeah, I would agree with that. Fuel injection is a wonderful thing and lets you turn a lot of dials and play with a lot of things that are difficult or impossible to do with a typical carb for insurance. But agreed you need to tune them right to start with. It would be like throwing a generic tune in a car and letting O2 feedback do all the work. Yes, it might function, but it's always going to be reactive and trying to "fix" things, not run directly to begin with.
This is just a flawed control system. A lot of tuners / mechanics / software devs etc. never had a control systems engineering course and this is what you get. If you want a system where you can let it do the work for you and ride it right on the edge perfectly you need far higher sampling rate and effective system bandwidth than most ICE automotive traction control systems can offer. Tesla is a good example, you can stand on the pedal and they just give you everything the surface and tires can give. The wonders of a stable control system with high enough bandwidth.
Makes you wonder (without knowing the valve event timing and fuel type) if its pulled enough timing to afterburn the cyls, goes whoosh instead of bang. Cool follow up video would be of the piston and ring lands. Drill the top of the pistons to see if there was enough heat/cold cycling to cause annealing. --very instructional video (grabs laptop to change tune ;))
That is exactly why tuners retard timing to get the turbo(s) to spool. Retarding the timing results in the bang happening so late that a lot of the bang goes out the exhaust ports which both heats up and accelerates the exhaust pulses being fed to the turbine side of the turbo. Manual trans turbo cars have historically gotten the most extreme with this on the starting line given they have nothing to push against like a converter to build boost. Hence why those suckers typically really bang and pop on the starting line.
@@danmyers9372exactly as I (longtime racing fan/viewer) envisioned was happening. I’ve also wondered how much leftover fuel detention in the pipes was happening in some of these tunes.
Hey Steve,
While I generally agree with the premise of delayed ignition causing higher cylinder temps, it should drop combustion temps because your pressures are lower. Another note is that the waviness you are seeing in the manifold pressure is likely the swings in the efficiency of the engine changing the rate at which the engine can pull in air, which sends pulses through the intake because the impeller has enough inertia that it wants to stay at a constant speed. Otherwise, it's nice to see an explanation in laymans terms on this kind of stuff!
Adding the max load with the crazy timing is hard on everything. Tell him to learn how to drive.
This makes me wonder can the TC be delayed? As in, slow the cycles where the TC engages.
Gosh you are the smartest man on the earth thank you Steve for some well learned content
Excellent technical information. Thank you.
Thanks for putting this information out! I'm just getting back into the serious racing scene after being gone for about 20 years. As it said "back in the day" we ran carbs and didn't have these fancy electronics and traction control back then was the heaviness of your right foot which the engine could keep up with. These fast electronics are capable of switching 200 times per second and making those massive swings is going to lead to carnage. I'm betting it's more than just a couple of pistons. I wouldn't be surprised if the bearings didn't suffer due to harmonics as well. My theory is to leave the traction control loose to prevent MAJOR wheel slippage in the first 3 seconds of the run (on a mid 5 second car 1/8 mile) but allow a little wheel speed. Engines are expensive, WAY more than any 10 purses you could potentially win!
I have a 2009 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0 Liter V8 with a Magnuson Supercharger, Headers, Cam and other performance options. It was Dyno Tuned and it is a Beast! I was told by the shop that did the mods to absolutely Never Run Traction Control if I tracked the car or planned to run the car hard. They told me, simply put, the opposing forces could destroy the engine. If you run a high performance car please take this wise advice. 👍
Steve back with some knowledge bombs!
One of the reasons electronic engines have not taken over the top end diesel stuff is because they don't yet have the electronics at the level to be able to reliably cycle as fast as the mechanical stuff currently the common rail stuff starts to fall apart beyond 5000rpm I believe while the mechanical stuff can go 7k.
you are definitely, one smart man, Mr. Steve Morris. Hopefully, the customer will wise up and listen to you.
steve sayys look at this... i as a person doesnnt know what to look at. so im looking at the blue line
the traction control science was what racers need to here. I my self thought that has to be extra hard on all the drive parts. I do know what that engine go threw.
I come from a Nitrous background starting in the mid-90's till even now, I still do Nitrous stuff here and there. I remember when the 7531/7531T came out. We never used the T. We always made the car work by chassis adjustment, taking a little more timing out, disabling a stage or two, timing them out further, running the progressive out more, depending on the track or when in mexico. It seems a lost art anymore! Make the car work it's best without relying on a crutch such as traction control, when it's best at a bad track then click on the traction control to where it barely needs to compensate to get a good pass. On a good track it will do well and won't even come close to getting on TC. My two cents!
Is traction control adjustable by percentage over time? I guess maybe the question is, can you set a curve for it or is it just on or off? Asking for my dog, he's the curious type...
Yes, you set a curve for it based on driveline speed from a pass. How close you place it below or above the line then determines how you far you want the ECU to let it go before pulling timing. This is what Steve is talking about when he talks about z”tightening up the traction control”. Moving the line closer to the driveshaft curve. At least this is how it works in Holley. Not sure about the more expensive, dedicated systems like Davis.
That was a very good lesson, Steve, thank you.
Oh this is a good one. Think you mentioned this when the spark plug blew out. Ive been learning about traction control strategies and was wondering if running excessive timing retard and dropping cylinders could cause engine issues. Everyone raves about the Davies technology setup. Thanks fir sharing.
What about traction control using full fuel cut? Less smooth but surly perfectly safe if it’s a full cut?
AWESOME VIDEO Steve! I've never heard this concept (which has been touched on by others) explained so perfectly before. EVERYone tuning an engine for quartermile should understand this.
That’s why guys like Cletus tear up so much quality gear.
I thought critically once.
It hurt my brain and I got yelled at.
Does the Fuel Tech's TC manage engine Timing, EGT'S and AFR's differently as compared to the Holley Dominator TC strategy?
Or the Davis? Good question. I don’t know how their systems work.
@@danmyers9372 Davis used to be an extra $$$ add-on for Holley - now both Fuel Tech and Holley have their own TC feature included.
Just imagine the vibrations/harmonics induced by this strategy... might really hurt parts in a short period of time. But that final stretch with advanced timing and scorching valves/plugs maybe detonated it all.
This is amazing stuff Steve. Thanks for sharing
Good points.......Do you suggest only keeping traction control active for a few seconds from transbrake release or just making it so that it cannot pull as much timing down track?
Nope move the curve or reduce boost or much less timing change
Makes perfect sense. I never like hearing a car on the rev limiter or 2 step. Its seems so bad for the engine.
Watching this helped me understand my engine failure more in depth. I do appreciate that! It also will help me set up a better tune, and understand the mechanical limitations of my setup. Great info!
Very good explanation! Thanks 🤘🏻
The numbers were making sense until I lost the pointer/cursor....and I am not a math guy......WHEN WILL YOU BUILD A TIME MACHINE, STEVE? WAIT, YOU ALREADY DO......
Hell Steve I'm still old school ! Traction control is still the right foot ! 712 Big Block Ford ,C460 headed , Ford C6, 4 stages of NOS on Digiset timers , A 40, 36, 28 ,18 , Ignition controlled by a Holley Annihilator ignition ,6,80-90's@ 213-16
, "93 Ford Mustang , and we do leak a few pistons out the header pipes every year! lol
92@
Never Enough of "STEVE" but then SMX's wouldn't get built
Not bad for a college drop out! LOL
Thank you for sharing that!
Mechanical grip needs some work. 😢
Great explanation 😮 Steve. Yes, we saw the hurt piston, twice! Thanks for the lesson, and the data. It all makes sense when the engine builder points out exactly what is going on!😢 from now on this will be a happy engine, with a happy tune!
By the 330 there should be enough traction, mechanically❕️to produce a cleaner tune for the rest of the close to 1k' of track that is left.😅
😮oh,🎵 happy days🎵. 🍎 thanks for the clear lesson.😊
Is it tougher to mechanically make traction after the 330' on a small tire (radial) car? (Dah)🥴.
☕️⏳️😋 ⚠️✌🏻❤️ 🇨🇦🤙🤘🖖🏻.
"Traction control is there to save the run, not make the run" says it all.
That's kind of like using (relying on) closed loop correction to make up for a bad or incomplete fuel table...
Hey, I just realized something during your math segment, I agree with everything your saying. But wouldn't it be 8000 RPM. meaning 8000 rotations per minute. So it would be 4000 rotations per minute, and 66.6repeating per minute not per second? I mean that's still a hell of a lot of speed. Just wanted clarification.
The way you did the math, 8000rpm/2= 4000/60=66.6*10%=~6,, that’s just for one cylinder, 8 cylinders popping off per 2 rotations would be 48 compression events.
The reality is, we put the fuel in the hole and make the car go. Any time we start moving things around aggressively, it just causes problems.
Is there a better way to perform "traction-control", let's say carefully adjust the boost, the wastegates and/or the fuel-rates?
I am asking about the fuel rates, because E100 creates much more boost per lambda than normal fuel. E100 is still burning at Lambda 65 and then creating a lot more exhaust gases. So playing with the fuel-mixture could help also. I do not mean mixture in the tank. I know you have two fuel-systems, so mixing means to inject more from one fuel-system and at the same time less from the other one.
lowing boost is too slow to react to save a tyre from spinning. dbw throttle works well, pretty much how every single oem modern street car does it that said no oem street car has 2000hp so on and off the throttle could have similar impacts as this timing based TC.
@dragpix sounds pretty complicated. How about a combination of everything available.
- boost
- boost by gear
- life-fuel-mixture/-rate
- throttle
- timing
- breakes
I expect, with "boost by gear" and rear axle RPM, it should be possible to be only slightly above what the tires are able to cope with. When you then use the rest of the available parameters to keep them away from violently spinning, is it then possible to have traction-control and not hurt the engine or the brakes?
@@dragpixControlling by dbw is still quite slow compared to timing. To maximise use of the available grip, torque has to be adjusted very quickly. This is why electric cars can be so good in this regard, they can adjust ~1000 times per second. With timing, at eg 8000 rpm, can adjust ~67 times per second. Dbw is still quite slow not entirely because of the speed of the throttle but because the pressure in the manifold must change to reduce torque, which required the manifold to but pumped out by the engine.
“The More You Know”
✨👍✨
So F...cool explanation. Its funny because as a cleetus, PFI, KSR and Steve viewer, when I've seen the title/intro I was already, guessing what was probably the problem.
Its n9ce to see content, enjoy it and even learning from it!
Thanks Steve !
Hey steve, could i have a rip down the track with you in wagon?
You truly are a man of knowledge. Definitely don’t mind helping keeping your customer happy!!
So, rolling anti-lag almost all the way down the track..... Sounds like Garrett in the Supra... LOL
It it possible to cut fuel and spark for a cylinder per cycle to fully utilize traction control with less negative impact? Once target retard hits -4 put the timing back and cut a cylinder instead? Target -8 put another 4 back and drop 2 cylinders. So on and so forth. Direct injection needed for that?
Ran 5.20s For 2 years with NONE of the electronics.. Trams break, 2 step. If I had the $ to make the power your making I dare say it woulda been faster.. Kinda cheating if ya ask me.
No problem to run continuously on traction control. As long as it's done correctly. (same issue as the "two step" and "three step" stuff)
I love these tech videos. I'm a racing fan not a driver (YET!) and I still love learning about these issues.
This is why I bought a Steve Morris engine!
People using traction control for their lack of tuning or driving ability or both.. its just like a new boat owner thats never used a boat or backed up a trailer. Its called the "More MONEY than BRAINS club"
Uh oh critical thinking skills. Well there goes 80% of people nowadays lol … ok 95% of people, I’m not the smartest guy but I do try to think things threw. Nobody likes doing something twice for no reason. What’s that saying, buy it right or buy it twice! Same principle applies
Steve I’m learning so much from your channel. Even though lm 68 years old and drive a 60s muscle car I’m learning something new on every episode. BTW I only live 15 minutes from Rosslers shop and it’s great to hear a local guy being mentioned on your channel. Keep teaching!
Love your work .. Just a quick question .. The overlay had a Nitrous curve at the bottom ..are you fudging us turbo guys ???? LOL
Is there a close equally effective form of power management?
Would the new electronic wastegates (on the charge pipe) work quick enough ?
Retarded timing should make the combustion cooler including piston and plug, and exhaust valve, manifold, etc hotter. I don’t think the explanation is correct. Given the widely varying EGTs, most likely there some cylinders are getting more air compared to fuel and detonation is occurring because of that, or improper combustion is occurring for some other reason (need more info).
Steve please build boost simple and east to wire. ONE BUTTON. When the trans brake is on-so is a solenoid to squirt fuel in the exhaust pipes to spin up the turbo. Too easy, end of problems. I an retired TA/FC Crew chief
That is some great information. And put in a way that I never thought of, thank you for sharing to make us all better racers, tuners, or enthusiasts!
EGTs show it, 1st piston went away at 2.5sec, traction control basically all stopped when the 2nd piston went away at 3 sec, wasn't making power, cuz it was hurt, wasn't spinning the tires so traction control stopped. EGTs were way high because the ignition was so far retarded it couldn't burn the fuel before it went out the exhaust valve.
66.67 times per second= THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST!
Saving my engine parts 1 day at a time, with Dr. Steve!! Dang I have learned a lot from you brother! I know you have learned a lot in your walk as well. I truly enjoyed this video, thank you Sir. Now if I only had a hot rod with enough power for traction control… wha wha wha.
This was another insightful episode of CSI: Morris (Car Stuff Investigation). 😁😎🤟
I know every engine combo is diff, but we no prep race (not running the power to make a 4.50 pass lol) but let traction grab it to help keep it under control and run low 5s on a crap surface. I've never seen my traction look like that either, it'll grab here and there or hold the timing and ease it back in, may be why we haven't had an issue with it. But makes perfect sense how you explained it mathematically. Always enjoy watching your videos and the advice you always give out 💪
Spoke to a well known tuner about this and he said their car would blow up every round of pulling that much timing was seriously detrimental to the engine.
Their car is making less than 2000whp, but close to that number and is mostly an 1/8 mile car.
Is your engine (because of the higher hp) more on the edge of failure and more sensitive to big timing changes making peak power?
More in depth discussion would be appreciated!
I think opening up the waste gate is a better option than pulling timing for traction controll. Especially with the electronic gates
It's not so much that Traction Control is bad it's that you aren't supposed to lean on it like a crutch - likewise a knock sensor in a production car. Can it? Sure! Is it a great idea? Burned piston says nope. Steve's got it exaclty right. I'm surprised the customer didn't realize what was going on themselves...
Waiting Steve Morris building new racing Tesla EV motor. If any secret techniques for winding coils to share or magnets.
This was really a nice “This just needed to be said” style video. Good work racing brother
This really seems like the traction control is being stupid and needs rework. It shouldn't be pulling power and adding it all back in that rapidly. Decrease the wheel slip sample rate, make it pull throttle, etc. If this was a Tesla then hell yeah you want it to be adjusting power a thousand times per second...because the motor can keep up with that.
Keep in mind, you 12x math applies to a single cylinder.. that’s happening 8x12 in total for the engine. :-)
He must have a blind kid tuning it...😂
Here endeth the lesson.
What traction control does to a turbocharged RX-8: it rips the transmission out, first hand experience. It bogged down, roared back and ripped out the lowest gears.
When the timing is pulled back would fuel be washing the cylenders down? Also would the pistons and rings get hot from lack of lubrication? If the first part is true.