7 Things I've Learned Since We Started Making Discs
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- In the past four years, we've learned a TON about how discs are made. So we wanted to share some of the things we've learned with you!
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00:00 - Intro
01:17 - Thin to Thick
02:35 - Witness Marks
06:20 - Mold Changes
08:06 - Tiny Design Tweaks
09:08 - Flashing (what causes it)
12:22 - Plastic is Really Hard
15:19 - Are Green Discs More Overstable?
18:06 - Bonus Tidbit 
Хобби
The Dune just turned 1!! They grow up so fast 🥲
Snag one for 30% off this week only (including a brand new plastic blend 👀): trashpandadiscgolf.com/dunebday
I've been throwing Inner Core Baseline for a long time. Then I got Premium and its flight plate is super flimsy and has more soft dome. is this common for translucent plastics? and the Baseline goes up to 170's because of that?
You're the man Jesse! ❤
As an engineer working in R&D I absolutely love these vids. It’s so cool to see you “nerd out” like I do and it really shows how much you care. Please keep these behind the scenes coming!
Came for the disc golf, stayed for the manufacturing. Man this stuff is fascinating. Thanks!
Plastics are hard. Except when they are soft. Then they are really hard. Great video.
I have been designing and working with plastic parts of all sorts of sizes and types of plastics for over 20 years.. This was a great video that touches on just enough complexity to explain how insanely complicated the design and manufacture of plastic parts can be. Great job! Keep it up.
as a 🥏 production worker in California I'm so glad you are sharing this information 🥹 people get to have an inside look at the plastic they throw
Jesse, the forklift tooling change gave me damn near war flashbacks 😂😂😂
Great video as always, Jessie! They say, if you want to become an expert at something, learn to teach it to someone else. Keep it up!
This makes a lot more sense now. Last year Brad & Chad released a video answering submitted questions and one was about how they got into the disc manufacturing industry. They stated that injection molding was a family business and since they loved playing disc golf they decided to start making discs. So, the process of thick to thin was already ingrained in their methodology as they were already injection molding for other industries before doing it for discs. Hence, the overmold. Thanks Jesse. I love you and the team and what you do for the sport and the planet.
I work at an EV company designing plastic injection molded parts. This is a really fun video, thanks for making it.
I’ve wondered about the air eject marks on the MVP discs, that was amazing to hear from someone in the industry. The witness marks being near invisible on the overnold for MVP discs is incredible.
I have so many more questions on what grade of tool steel is used in the mold (you mentioned 100K shots, seems like P20).
I’ve also wondered about sink marks on the rims of discs due to the thick sections; Somewhat related, it’s interesting to hear some of the challenges with gate location on the bottom of the disc. Has anyone tried to use a multi gate mold and injecting on either side of the rim?
You’ve also confirmed my hypothesis that the colorant would affect mold parameters that might change overall wing shape. It was wild to see the red colorant flashing on Robbie’s disc.
You mentioned CFD - I’d love to know what software you use to analyze discs and how a disc is simulated.
Also: do you have any insight into “halo” plastics and other types? My assumption here is the big league manufacturers are using Hot Runner systems to inject correct color ratios but I’d love to know if you have any insight! Awesome vid.
The 1R (First Run) RPM Mint Green Pekapekas are valued above all others for their extra stability. I am extremely confident that injection moulding technology is pushed harder by golf disc makers than any industry.
Interestingly, I have a few unique Rurus from RPM, that must have been the very first discs out of the swapped mould. These discs are swirly blue, and covered in darker blue finger prints. I sent pics to Simon, and he apologised for the factory worker failing to clean the mould parts prior to production beginning. It seems the heat and finger oil make the plastic darker, easily showing the fingerprints on the finished product. :)
I know that Innova have intentionally overblown moulds for quite a while, in order to get the weight up to maximum, on moulds which have a slightly too-small cavity to get max weight on their usual TPU.
And I also know that Innova have intentionally left the discs they intend to submit to the PDGA in the mould for extended periods of time, so that the disc doesn't shrink once it leaves the mould. This means the PDGA award the mould a higher maximum weight because the diameter is higher.
And that is why, when you check the official PDGA specs for a disc, you will often find the Innova drivers are 1 to 2 mm smaller in diameter than is stated on the dedicated disc approval page at the PDGA's website.
Very sneaky indeed, Innova!
Love this!!
Best vid so far. Others might not think so but I loved it. It'll be interesting to see the YT analytics.
This was so fascinating!! Thank you!
Great video! Thanks for sharing this level of detail, really fascinating
This was so enlightening! Thanks Jesse!
love your vids ... i find this kind of info unique and fascinating
Great info!
Great video. Your journey is so interesting. Thanks.
Hey Jesse, I work in a manufacturing factory. I throw away 300-500 plastic buckets a month. Black and white buckets. They don't feel to different than disc's. Would love to work something out to get you guys some to try. If you're interested.
Hobby universes colliding... In the custom mechanical keyboard hobby we use various durometer materials (gaskets in various shapes) ranging from 30A to 90A!
Thnx Jesse, we be learnin more every day...much respect!
One of the best yet 😎🤙
Most interesting DG video Ive seen in a long time
Just got my starter set today! So excited to play with it soon!
Top 3 video to date. Takes me back to the days in the garage, just learning new stuff.
This is so cool. My dad’s company does injection molding for medical infusion pumps. Hearing you talk about this is really interesting given how different discs are from other products. A while back he confirmed to me that color would 100% affect discs because they have specific colors that they can’t use otherwise their pumps cavitation won’t be up to their tolerances for failure. It’s fascinating. I have a run of pink/light blue halo emperors that are just stupid overstable compared to emperors from the same run that are different colors. This is the first time I’ve stumbled into one of your videos, I’m definitely picking up an ice inner core next time I’m at a shop, you’ve got a supporter for life this is way cool.
Super cool video, Jesse! Love how you pull back the curtains on disc manufacturing and share it with the world. As a fellow disc golf nerd thank you!
Thought this would be a fun little video to see, then the complete, as other's have said, "nerd out" was way more interesting than I thought.
Air poppet is for de-molding. I made buckets and for years and used them in my tools. Definitely for consistency and being able to use an end of arm tool for it!
dope share
As a manufacturing engineer, I am always looking for opportunities to reduce downtime and make uptime more efficient. A term we use is SMED. Single minute exchange of dies. We try to design our tools and adjust production schedules so that change overs are limited to 10 minutes. Not always possible, but that’s the goal. Keep up the great work!
Jesse,
There are at least three other solutions to your thick to thin molding problem. 1. Injection compression aka coining. Coining combines compression and injection processes in specialized machines that were developed for making compact disks. 2. Foaming which injects gas into plastic. 3. Collapsible cores allow a undercut on the core that would hollow out the thick sections. A major benefit of using 1 & 2 is the Injection pressure is dramatically reduced allowing the use of low cost molds and less ware and tare on the molds. I worked on a project that looked into using the above approaches on low-cost 3D printed injection molds. I can explain more if you want to reach out.
Shout out to the crazy durable Vibram Ibex compression molded rubber disc!
That 'air pop' could be the suction cup they use to remove the disc from the mold as seen in Latitude 64's 'How a Disc Golf Disc is made' video
Thermo-Plasticized Urethane (TPU) has 10+ different technical parameters, but very sadly, the plastic manufacturers will not provide more than about 4 of them, to customers.
And plastic makers only guarantee consistency within a batch, and never between batches.
This makes it virtually impossible for a disc maker to make consistent discs when using different batches. :(
Another reason for the central injection point might be exactly that. Geometrically, that point is the center, so plastic flows outward evenly from there. That's just a guess as a math nerd.
I took a plastics manufacturing class in college a few years ago and we had a lab assignment where we had identify types of plastic based on if they floated, burned or melted, were opaque, and other factors. There was one plastic put in there to sabotage us, and the lesson was that pigments can have a huge effect on plastic properties. It was impossible to identify that sample without doing an elemental analysis and it was because a small amount of pigment was added. I’m surprised that there aren’t huge differences in discs of different colors
Aced with my red dune 7-6-24 on hole 6 at the gunslinger 9 royal gorge in cañon!!! 1st ace with recycled plastic lets go Jesse and team!!! Baja dune on the way so stoked
Ohhh set up time for machines.. making me think about Overhead costs and cost per piece..
So many people want something made yet seem to believe we can just do it with everything set up no matter what it is
"I want this thing wielded onto that thing with a bit mating it together... It's just a wield so it must just be 30 mins labour..."
So... We set up the workspace
get tools
set up the wielder (possibly needs a change of gas/wire/rod/tip.. but that's spread across many jobs)...
prepare part 'A' for wielding
prepare part 'B' for wielding
make part 'X' to fit both part 'A' and 'B'
wield the parts in such a way that it doesn't heat warp either and stays aligned once wielded
then there's sundries... Power (lights, wielder etc)
gas
wielding rod/wire
nuts/bolts/tape/PTFE etc
office worker (someone is going to put it in writing and send you a bill)
my time....
my expertise "You only hit it with a hammer... I could have done that".... "Yes, Hitting it with a hammer... FREE.... Knowing WHERE TO HIT IT.... $$$$$" (I have actually charged someone for hitting something with a hammer... of course I also showed them why, and showed them how to prevent it needing to be hit again).
and then there's all those other tools, screw drivers, pliers, cutoff saw, hammer... big hammer.... really really big hammer (ok a hydraulic press)... and some tools we haven't used... but had to buy just in case...
and you only want 1....
so then I pack it all up again... and clean the workshop... and the other rooms (ok we don't clean anything.. it's a mess but we love it)...
Oh and feed the 4 sparrows that fly in the dock way door and sit on a box beside me loudly cleaning their beaks on the box as they realised that gets my attention (the blackbird used to stand on the tin diesel heater... and if I paid no attention... shuffled his feet.. If looks could say words.. the birds look would say... "WELL?... I'm Waiting!" (At least a cat may give you a smooch before disappearing.
and theres a million devices out there that need fixing... Next time you rock up with that kamakooza you got from Ebay and want it fixed.. think about this.... You didn't buy it from me.. I've never seen one before... no one in the country (except maybe me) can fix it... so NO... it won't be a 3 second fix with a part I magically have on the shelf..
but that's ok... Take a month to pay, then say that the invoice got lost, please re-email it... so you can pay another month later... because I couldn't possibly remember that next time your ... what was that word my dad used.. while looking at some broken thing in disgust... oh yeah... "Plastic!" thing needs to be fixed.
(Uhhh is it just me or did that turn ugly.... Meh )
q8)
I appreciate that you sound exactly like Dustin at Smarter Every Day. I have no doubt that you know exactly who I'm talking about.
Thanks for giving me the reasons not to get into disc manufacturing.
I have an Orbit Moonshine Felon. I had never noticed that mark on the top of the flight plate from the Air Pop-It
I worked a large (over a million a month) CD/DVD/XBOX manufacturer. This is basically how a CD/DVD/XBOX are made. Its been closed years, but this pulled some almost forgotten terminology like stripper plate and the weight of the molds.
Great Video Jesse! May I ask what you do with the Vibram discs you receive? I guess any rubber/rubber blend disc.
Also, can you make a video on the difference between Polyethylene, Polypropylene and Polyurethane? In another video you searched for new plastic sources and I instantly thought of roadside garbage bins as they have to be very durable, but it seems as if they are typically made of the first 2 although Polyurethane can withstand greater temperatures, but I assume is more flexible as urethane is used often in caulk and other flexible products. Lastly, your content is truly the only DG content that makes me want to instantly go purchase something which is a great complement to your dedication, integrity, and personability!
TPU is one of the most difficult filaments to print with on a 3d printer...so it only makes sense it would be a PIA molding discs as well.
Man that was an amazing journey through the process. All my green discs are flippy? Any way too cool
Innova disc's recently starting having pop it marks, check out the new star wraiths....
Hearing you talk about the time it takes to change a mold brings to mind 2 sec lean by Paul Akers where he talks about their process for changing molds and how they got the time down. Might want to look into it.
Ok Jesse, now I want to know how the process parameters affect the discs flight stability. If it’s in the different temp/pressure profile, or if it does something to the surface finish that affects flight. Maybe it’s a good problem to solve with a DOE??
Traaaaash Paaaandaaaa
I give you 22€ for the Ibex! :D
Wait, so I guess I get that thin to thick just makes the injection and the clamp work harder or use more energy that you would if you go from thick to thin. Does that mean that Disc making machines and molds somehow are more expensive than let's say a bowl making machine and molds, because of the force needed on both components to get the plastic to move without letting it spill on the other end? Just curious, and great video btw. Def subscribed after this one.
I think you guys should make a mold named after each of the 3 pieces of the mold. "Stripper plate" would be a fantastic name for a disc.
Where does the air go when filling the mold? Does the air escape through the joints between the molds? Is the mold put under a vacuum?
A firm innercore with a harder durometer would be awesome!
The moment I read durometer I had an image of a bunch of skateboard wheel companies entering the disc golf scene...
I'd love an ABEC11 disc with 77a...
This got me wondering, why can't a disc be injected from a rim (like an overmold, but a full disc, rim and flight plate)? Or can it, but with some significant drawbacks?
Have you considered starting a used disc shop? Especially for ones that you can't easily regrind?
How do they do the swirly rays if it is injected via screw?
Cool info. Is there any injection molding companies that could make a disc golf disc from thick to thin? I imagine it would take a whole different mold design. And, would it make any difference?
There is a huge barrier to injecting thick to thin. When a mold shuts, there is air trapped inside. Jesse has discussed vents in another video I believe but that air gets forced out through the vents when the plastic is injected. The plastic displaces the air. Well, since the thick part of a disc is all around the outside, you would need 3-4 injection points around the outside to make all the forces and pressures uniform. So if it's filled from outside in, the air is gonna be trapped in the middle of the flight plate and that will not produce a usable product.
Edit: If it could be done it would make a huge tremendous difference though. Like I can't express enough how great it would be.
What about making glow plastic??
So once done all good how many discs can ya make in 24 hours? Always wondered.
I wonder if this "thick to thin" concept has any role in Lat63's new Project Grip plastic concept 🤔
Green shouldn't even be in the color palate of discs, nor should black, brown, or anything earth colored. Discs should stand out like crazy. If i was a manufaturer, i wouldnt make discs in colors that people dont buy, only in easy to find colors. Ive bought a few discs that "misrepresented" online and i was very disappointed. Ill never throw them, and likely wont be able to sell them.
Haha my bag is neon discs for “findability”
Everyone has their choice and that’s why it’s done that way, the more options people feel they have the more likely they are to find something in their color and will buy. Also not everyone loses discs like that, should pros not be able to get certain colors because amateurs lose discs more often? Just a self centered complaint
Me too. Nothing but bright pink, orange, red, and blue. I imagine 99% of every earthtone colored disc just goes to the PM Foundation and are given away. Looking for discs is by far the worst part of disc golf.
I have issues finding red or orange discs in the woods/leaves. Green pops out, never had any issues finding my black disc either
Not everyone perceives colors the same way. I prefer green it stands out to me
I always heard that pink discraft discs back in the 2010s were more overstable than their other colors
Wait, YOU MAKE DISCS NOW??? 😏😘
What was that you were saying about the Polecat?
very thin flight plate(injection point) relative to the distance of the rim and its thickness
I think it's in the middle to make sure the rim is balanced
But does MVP actually use only one injection point in their single molds...? I think MVP actually uses rim injection points on their solo mold discs. At least I remember them showing some experimental runs where they did that.
I was kind of stuck half watching since I'm at work, so sorry if this was addressed. By why don't traditional style manufacturers do a 3 point rim injection like MVP does for their overmold, but for their whole disc? Seems to me that would make the pressures more reasonable and also make it easier to get full coverage/fill.
lots of molds to modify/or make entirely new molds ($$$) and different methods to learn/teach operators
Why not inject classic discs with injection points on the outside?
"Same same, but different" 🇺🇸 🇰🇵😅
Why not over-mold with the same plastic, so the same feel all around? And for you more critically, fully recyclable,. Maybe also it's easier on the machines. Sure, a PITA when it's time to change molds, double the work?
How many folks checked the different brand discs you own to check for those marks? lol
tldr: complex
day 7
of asking to send me an inner core for my upcoming tournament( ill use it on everyhole