As an OR RN at a level 1 trauma center, I've seen a lot of gunshot victims, and in cases where handgun hollowpoints were used, none of them expanded like shown in tests. In one case, a .45 hydrashock was recovered from a patients leg. It entered posterior mid thigh and ended up medially to the knee with just a hint of expansion. Not all bullets are removed, some are left based on location and risk of removal. But from the ones I've seen removed, or on XRAY, none performed as advertised. Maybe when hollowpoints work as intended, patients don't make it to surgery? Not sure.
Most handguns don't operate at a high enough velocity to induce any expansion. Have you seen many rifle round wounds in your experience? Genuine question. Interested in your feedback.
I think you nailed it with that last part. Like when helmets were implemented in combat in ww1, injuries went up. But injuries only went up cause they otherwise would've been casualties without the helmets.
Off topic sort of, but on the notion of "survivor results vary" also from WW2, an engineering group took a look at the planes coming back riddled with bullet holes and they armored the sections that got all shot up and saw no improvement in returning plane numbers. A new head was added to the department who stopped armoring those sections and instead armored where the returning planes WERE NOT shot up.. and saw a massive improvement on surviving plane numbers.
Same here! I am calmed by Paul’s commentary, it’s like a warm hug from a heavy shooting jacket on a cold winters predawn hunting trip before the sun rises and the campfires coals are just barley smoking still from the previous night! So peaceful
Paul, PhD biochem and mol bio here. You absolutely used the terms "aqueous" and "gelatinous" correctly. Aqueous just means containing a majority of H2O, whereas gelatinous refers to an aqueous protein matrix like the ballistic gels used on other (lower quality) channels. 🙂
I'm almost positive that a substance can be "gelatinous" without having any water.... Bet you $5 you could make a silicone based goo with some kind of protein-like structure
Considering the fact that the FBI established the gelatin standard, calling channels that feature gelatin block tests "lower quality" is *not* a slap at those channels...
Did anyone else see the deer jump out on Paul's right side about 40 yards behind him and walk through the forest @ 14:30? great explanation with a little wildlife to boot! Cheers!
I've been a gun owner since I was given a Ruger 10/22 at the age of 11. I've only ever owned guns for the purposes of hunting and plinking, never for anti-personnel/self defense purposes. I've recently moved to a fairly large city, and for the first time the thought of concealed carry seems like a good idea. This channel has been instrumental in my sidearm and ammunition choices. Thank you Paul for the practical information you put out. You've helped me tremendously.
Paul is one of the few Guntubers I watch religiously. I've learned far more in the last 5 years of watching his videos than in the preceding 23 years of being a gun owner. His "Dawn of Time" explanations and "Tedious Chronograph" sessions are some of my favorite aspects to his technique.
Excellent class today Professor Harrell. I've watched a lot of Guntubers over the years, you are the one I've stuck with. I'm sure there are many others who feel this way.
I watch different guntubers for different reasons. Paul and Gun Jesus for instance put out entirely different content but I watch both intently. I watch InRange for Karl's specific content. I watch taofledermaus strictly for fun.
Here's a real world experience that's in line with what Paul is demonstrating. In 1979 I was involved in a gunfight with a suspect I was trying to arrest inside an apartment. He pulled out a Smith and Wesson K38 (.38 cal.) revolver( stolen) and shot me in the upper right chest from a distance of 7 feet ( yep, 7 feet). At the time I was wearing a suit coat, dress shirt and tee shirt. To make a long story short, I drew my Walther P-38 (9mm) and the gunfight was on. At the time I was loaded with Remington 115 grain jacketed hollow point and I learned later on that the stolen Smith was loaded with Super Vel 115 grain, also jacketed hollow point. When all was said and done he and I were both pretty well shot up, but here's the kicker; none of the projectiles expanded...none. I had four wounds and he had three. We both lived and he went to prison and I continued working for another 20 years. I still have the slug from the initial chest shot in my upper right lung and I'm pretty sure that my clothing plugged the hollow and kept it from expanding. Paul's presentation on all this, for me, is spot on given my own experience. Keep doing these presentations, Paul, they're very informative.
I love how when he says we have to listen to him talk, even after all that gunfire, the deer come into the background to listen. I don't know, maybe they're taking notes to better survive hunting season? I really love Paul's videos, even though so many of them tend to be outside of what shooting I may do with my 9mm 4.07" barrel or my 20 gauge with #8 birdshot, I still feel that I'm always going to learn something from them, and that something may save my life one day. Thank you, Paul. Your videos are great, informative, and presented such that we, the audience can really understand what you are saying and doing, as well as understand not only the result, but the *why* of the result. You rock, sir!
Sontar I was wondering if anyone else saw the deer I counted 3 one way off in the back ground one about mid and one close just looking like what's Paul talking about again.
I honestly can’t quite see with my phone and low resolution. My phone can go HD but I stick to 360p as it’s much more reasonable on a smaller screen, unless I need to read smaller details. I’ve seen some in other videos, but this one, I didn’t see.
CCI Speer used to have an excellent website for law enforcement listing all the ammo they make with expansion and penetration data, including penetration through windshields, car bodies, plywood and drywall. Example: Their 9mm Gold Dot didn't expand through a car trunk but did go on to penetrate a ballistic dummy in the back seat and the person in the front seat before lodging in the dashboard. The same style bullet would expand to 0.6" in jell and stop in 14" .
I remember that Speer site! One of my older brothers started seriously testing bullet performance 55 years ago when Speer came out with a 90 grain hot load for the 38 Special. He did a lot of testing on junked cars, but finding bounce back could be a problem on projectiles on such targets. Those 90 grs would not reliably penertrat car doors.
@@johnshields9110 I'm guessing thats especially true on what was presumably 1940s-50s era cars(55 years ago was 1968). It might do a little better on some newer cars with thinner sheet metal.
@@redtra236 Very likely true! The car doors in those days all had band of metal horizontally to support the doors mechanism. In the mid '70's, I know first hand a Sheriff off duty only had a J Frame so loaded, and rolled to the ground under a car door and empitied it up through the door bottom and luckily a bullet fragment hit a bad man somewhere that made him bleed a bit. I totally abandoned lighter 38 loads after that. Thanks for the reply. I carry that 130 Winchester HP that is supposed to be a top defensive load now.
@@chuckhaggard1584after a career in LE, much of it as a use-of-force investigator, you are absolutely, positively, dead- on... WRONG. Hard barriers May crush the petals, usually doesn't many factors involved. However, your blanket statement is about as wrong as can be as blanket statements. Now drywall and wood? Much more likely to prevent soft tissue expansion, not because it damages the petals, because it fills the cavity and turns the HP bullet into an FMJ, practically speaking.
How is Paul Harrell so low on subscribers? He's not for everyone, because he's not Tacticool, but he should be at a couple million at least for the quality of his content! SMASH THAT LIKE BUTTON PEOPLE & help Paul out!!!
I enjoy his videos but he does indirectly shame people that would most benefit from the information. Some of his impressions etc. seem passive aggressive to me. Tolerable and better than tacticool yokels? In my opinion yes but I could see some people getting turned off by his communication style.
I’ve been watching him for a few years and just realized I wasn’t subscribed. I’m not sure if I forgot to subscribe or if YT unsubscribed me. It really makes no difference to me though because I still get recommended his videos, and I have so many subscriptions after 17 years that I don’t even look at my subscription feed.
@@SushiArmageddon Paul does moan a bit too much about his detractors, but he is the gun tuber I watch the most, guess I’m getting grumpy as I get older too lol.
Wow. It's so weird. I normally comment something, if I have anything of remote value to offer, but in this case, I just felt an almost odd need to just say "thank you". Thank you for the video. Thank you for your time. Thank you for giving us something that's equal parts entertaining, informative, thought provoking, and so on. There's much to be appreciative of in these presentations. However I wasn't expecting to see the amount of other people also saying thank you for various other reasons. This is easily one of the more polite and pleasant little communities to interact with, so seeing a bunch of you people being nice to each other isn't odd, but the specific amount of commenters who's purpose is to say thank you seems markedly higher in this one. Weird how that happens. I know that there is some kind of element of shared consciousness. Almost like a radio signal that we're all tuned in to. Even though I've been aware of that for many years, it still surprises me in a way when I see it reveal itself in such a manner.
Once people find something they like, they likely have a similar mindset to what they are viewing. Sadly, it took me a while to find Paul; I've only been watching for the last 2-3 years. I wish I had found him earlier!
Whenever Paul says “you’re going to have to listen to me talk and talk and ramble on for the dawn of time explanation”, or something like that, who else besides me goes and pops a bag of popcorn to excitedly sit down and really listen to what he has to say?
I have been reloading close to 20 years and have a lot of knowledge in this subject by my own testing of different calibers and different types and brands projectiles. In a reloading manual it will show how much FPS you must obtain for that bullet to perform and it is specific to pistol and rifle barrel lengths written right in the book for that cartridge, but Paul hit this right on the head👌
Even with sufficient velocity, you need a good impact to get "perfect expansion" A lot of the time you don't get "good shots" in self-defense situations; you shoot until the problem goes away.
I beat you to the handloading game by a factor of 2, but what made me go to handloading in the first place was a particularly poor example of projectile performance. A buddy and I were out shooting and I tried my new 45 ACP pistol against a variety of plastic bottles filled with water. One was a comparitively thick walled bottle, some kind of carpet shampoo I think. It was red. My Blazer 45 ACP load not only did not blow the bottle up as expected, but failed to penetrate the bottle at all, simply knocking it down really hard. The bullet shed its jacket and a bit of that jacket bounced back and hit me in the leg, feeling for all the world like a bug strike at street speeds; I could tell I got hit, but it was completely nonconsequential. I found the copper jacket fragment on the ground at my feet. My first handloads, on the other hand (185g jacketed hollow point propelled by 6.5 or so grains of Unique), provided the expected bottle rupture and "explosion". I kept the red bottle specifically to test again with my handloaded ammo. In the years since, I still load for performance, but now mostly for minimum recoil while meeting power factor for IDPA and USPSA competition. I *did* load some pretty hot Power Pistol 40S&W loads that made IDPA power factor out of a 3.1" barrel. They were gloriously loud and flashy.
@@Stop_Gooning that is a very true statement because someone can come at you in all different sizes and many ways, so it's not like it's going to be a set distance and stationary target, same goes for hunting.
Excellent presentation, Paul. Another reason a hollow point might not expand properly, is that sometimes they can tumble around backwards when entering tissue. This can be due to unstable flight or glancing off of a bone just under the skin.
As a retired LEO with 30 years, I have personal experience with 9mm zipping through a person. Clean in and out with no expansion. Two different bullet makes, mine was a Black Talon and my partners was a Gold Dot. People are not gel blocks or stacks of magazines and so many variables and scenarios. Enjoy all of your videos.
PH is absolutely the best at explaining and providing useful information in an engaging manner. I bet he could talk about almost any topic and still be a star.
You can really show hollow-point clogging if you shoot thru paper or books. Now, I know people are not going to walk around with metro phone books taped to themselves, and I know I'm dating myself when I mention the words "phone books".
This channel is always number 1 in terms of the thoroughness of its analysis and the practicality of its approach. Can't say enough good words about it.
This was an outstanding presentation. Paul Harrell demonstrated that hollow point expansion happens due to a combination of multiple conditions with bullet design (hollow point construction) being only one factor. I've read other experts claim that expanding bullets were three times as effective as non-expanding bullets--and that the difference between an expanding bullet that works as advertised and a non-expanding bullet is only about 10%. That's just expansion. Then there's penetration--the bullet has to penetrate deeply enough to inflict damage to something that the organism can't live without. As with real estate the three most important items are location, location, location! If the bullet doesn't hit, the bullet has no effect--the NOISE may have effect but not the bullet. That bullet has to hit something important, penetrating deeply enough and damaging the vitals.
Thank you for this video. Never thought I would be so entertained and informed about this subject. It was nice to meet you yesterday at the Rickreall gun show. Very polite and gracious.
I have learned so much from this man. His testing and demonstrations are amazing. Thank you Sir for all your hard work and time. You are very appreciated!
Hey Paul I've been a long time watcher and I always enjoy your content. I also really appreciate your point of view and the fact that you keep it professional and your videos aren't filled with vulgarity! You show people that you can have great content and every other word you say doesn't have to be the F word or GD. Thank you and keep it up!
If the camera SNAFUs were battery-related, it's probably cool weather interfering with the battery performance. Keeping the spare batteries in a pocket or under your jacket can keep them warm enough to get more performance out of them.
Once again excellent video. Also loved the critter in the background at 14:32. Might be others but those were the first I saw. I wonder if they were listening and trying to get an education as well.
Mr. Paul Harrell, Been watching /listening /learning from you for years (nearly decades it seems). ALWAYS enjoyed your work! ALWAYS learned something! ALWAYS impressed by your efforts! BUT, somehow, this episode REALLY stood out, to me, as to the complexity of your preparation, execution! THANK YOU Paul Harrell!! Stay with us as long as possible! God grant you peace knowing that you contributed greatly to your fellow citizens! 😊😊😊
Solid content . PH puts a great deal of effort and science into his presentations. I enjoy how he trained that deer to walk around in the background. Excellent range location PH. More please!
Thank you for putting this topic into “layman’s “ terms! Have wondered for years why some HP’s expand and some don’t. Everyone needs to take their fire arm with their chosen ammo and test as Paul does and make appropriate changes if necessary for what each individual is looking to accomplish. Thanks Paul and crew!
Thanks Paul, for taking the time to actually read and respond to all of our (no doubt sometimes inane) questions that get sent to you. These always make fairly informative videos. What's assumed to be common knowledge by some may be completely new information to others.
Paul, can you please do a video on rifle slings? Different types, how to mount them, how to use them properly, etc? I love your work and I’m happy to support you on Patreon. It’s well worth the knowledge I’ve learned from watching your videos the last few years. Thank you!
Your testing protocol discussion reminded me of government employee training. The tests are designed so that you are going to pass no matter what you know.
Miwall is a staple of the Crossroads of the West gun shows here in Phoenix/Arizona (I don't know about other areas). They sell a huge variety of ammo from various manufacturers. I also believe they do (or did) "remanufacture" their own line of ammo. So, if that's the case, then essentially you had reloads using XTP projectiles, not 'factory' ammunition. By reloading with less powder but using "premium" projectiles, they can increase their margin on the sale. Caveat Emptor, to be sure.
I agree with the medical examiner in the comments that spoke of the patients they see (alive) with gunshot wounds. The hollow points barely opened at all in the gunshot survivors they examined, i.e. the ammo did not work as advertised. They then further state that perhaps that is because the ones that get shot where the hollow point *does* exand properly, perhaps they went straight to the morgue instead of making it to the ER- thus the reason they never see fully expanded hollow points in SURVIVORS. Reasons for failed expansion include but aren't limited to: velocity too low due to pistol being too small, poor bullet design, thick barriers including clothes, etc.
What an excellent (and fair minded) discussion of factors that influence hollow point expansion, or lack thereof. Back in the "old days", meaning before chronographs were within reach of almost everyone, ammo maker "shenanigans" were on full display, including testing carried out using longer than standard laboratory test barrels that were not found in any actual handgun. These were designed to cater to the "faster is always better" crowd. Most of my testing over the years has been done with law enforcement and defense cartridges. I'd like to recognize the people at Federal and Speer, since the early 90's, who have used actual common law enforcement firearms for their testing, and who have always readily disclosed to me what they used as test firearms in common calibers. This may have been a function of me being a law enforcement officer at the time, and I honestly don't know if they are as forthcoming with other customers. One thing I have noted about them is that they take input from LE agencies and tweak loads based on that input, such that for example, a load might be reduced a bit based on the ability of officers to handle recoil or even muzzle flash, and armorer reports of wear on firearms. So, their LE oriented loads may not always be the hottest rounds you can buy. But since the LE rounds are all tested on the FBI protocols, their results are quite easy to replicate, and I have found their representations pf performance to be highly reliable. Another point to consider that is not made often is that most American Eagle and Speer Lawman loads are designed as practice analogs for duty rounds, just without an expanding projectile, lacquer sealing, or flash suppressed powders. So if your HST or Gold Dot loads have been "tamed" a bit for duty use, you will typically find your AE and Lawman loads in the same bullet weight have been as well. In this regard, I can only speak to their loads intended for law enforcement use. Other loads not intended for LE duty guns may behave differently. A good example was the Federal HST 150 grain 9mm load. This load was designed for use in the very popular 9mm micro pistols where reduced recoil was a priority. These behaved nothing like HST LE loads, and to my knowledge were not evaluated with the full FBI battery of FBI tests in mind. I'm also impressed that Federal and Speer sponsor field wound ballistic workshops for LE agencies in which they bring out the proper equipment to demonstrate their products or to test what the agency might be using. In the first one I attended, my agency was using a Winchester Ranger 155 grain .40 S&W load. After testing, the Federal rep told me, "While we'd love to have you switch to our products, I can't honestly tell you that what we offer is better than what you already have. You are using very good ammunition". I truly appreciated this level of honesty. I have no reason to suspect that Winchester is not as honest about their LE products, I just have not had as much experience with their cartridges. My sense is that today, the major makers of LE ammo are not in the business of lying to their customers, while some of the smaller makers might still engage in a few shenanigans. On the other hand there are some boutique makers such as Underwood who are very honest about what they offer as well. Buffalo Bore even specifies on their website the velocities they get from specific firearms. Overall it seems to be a good time to be choosing defense ammo in terms of knowing what you are getting. Here is a link to FBI test results published for common LE cartridges by Federal and Speer. When I was working, I was able to replicate a lot of these tests, and got very similar results with duty length firearms. People might find this interesting, especially the ability to compare cartridges side by side. le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
This is one thing I appreciate about the The Buffalo Bore ammunition. They test their ammunition in "real world" firearms. My chronographs over the years have demonstrated that Buffalo Bore ammo lives up to or slightly exceeds their advertised velocities. I don't agree with some of the viewpoints of Buffalo Bore's owner on other topics but who cares? Their ammunition is high quality and extremely reliable. I have absolutely no reason to promote Buffalo Bore ammunition other than it lives up to what it's clamed to be! I use it in Ruger Redhawk, GP100'S , and Super Blackhawks because they can handle this full potential 357 and 44 Magnum loads all day. Is their ammo more effective for a given purpose? I have no clue. I'm confident that their heavy hardcast gas-checked stutff is about as good as one can do for bear protection in magnum revolvers. Yes there are bears where I camp and hike.
This is a great presentation. It should be a mandatory watch for all bullet and cartridge manufacturers of self-defense intended ammo. There are some manufactures that now list velocities and barrel length tested, not many and not enough. Some handgun bullets need +P velocities (whatever that is these days) to reach expansion threshold, XTP's being one, others will do so from a 3"-ish barrel without the hyped +P velocities, I've discovered a few. I used to handload my defense cartridges, an attorney advised using what LE uses or some king of commercially produced ammo to avoid the question, " So you were thinking about shooting someone when you were making the ammunition?" Objection sustained but seed planted in the jurors mind. The answer to that would, by design and purpose, be "uhh, yeah" and there you are.
The obsolete Federal Nyclad hollow point expanded very well. Speer used to make a semi jacketed kieth style hollow point with exposed lead that expanded well. My experience with these projectiles showed that soft nose bullets in 357 and 44 have a problem penetrating hard targets like car bodies. The ideal for me is the hard cast kieth style semi wadcutter with a gas check that can be driven to magnum velocities. If cast correctly correctly it has a sharp shoulder that cuts a good wound canal and gives excellent penetration. These bullets would succeed in penetrating car bodies if hardened properly. See LEAD BULLET TECHNOLOGY, in moyea springs Idaho.
This video explained two law enforcement shooting's I saw happen.. one a shirtless man with immediate incapacitation and extreme wound cavity.. and one where the individual was a biker wearing leather and other layers. The biker basically never was incapacitated and opted to surrender and was on his feet until the ambulance came..
Nice one, Paul - I think this is one of your best videos, of late. Ammo comparisons and tests are useful and somewhat interesting, but this one really ties all those others together nicely!
Kudos to the shooter who asked original question. I agree with all you said. Many years ago I worked in the ballistic lab of a major ammo manufacturer. In those days we used blocks of beeswax as the expansion medium. The wax was sued to lubricate 22 ammo. We tried very hard to get 'real world" results, but it was not us who published the velocity on the box. That was the marketing gurus. As for the plugged hollow point problem, that is a real issue and Hornady tries to solve it with a plastic plug in the hollow point. I have often wondered if I could take an otherwise good (and cheap) hollowpoint bullet and fill the cavity with wax to prevent clogging. That deer target at 14:30 looked very real.
Just tried watching Garand's new production. Couldn't. Realized he's been compromised by Sig. Unsubbed from him. It's gross. Then realized America has been compromised by WEF. Paul, you're the the last American (and fellow Oregonian) gun guy worth a shit. Don't change baby. Love ya. #GODUCKS
It's mostly about the velocity. When someone asks me if a certain bullet is good for deer hunting I always say it depends. A 140 grain nosler accubond may not be best choice for a 6.5 creedmore at long distance. Just like a 150 grain nosler ballistic tip might no be the best choice for a 300 win mag at close range.
The human body is not ballistic gel. In a real fight, nothing is going to work as planned. With a pistol, you are going to need multiple hits in vital areas to stop someone unless you just get lucky. It does not work the way you see it in the movies. Stay safe everyone.
Weirdly I’ve bought Winchester White Box hollow points as blaster ammo for practice and feeding. Turns out it’s also really decent and expands quite reliably.
I bought a bunch of WWB 147 JHP a while ago. They cycle my guns (meaning my carry guns) perfectly and my expectations on ballistic performance from handguns is low anyway.
Great.👍 That really lays it out. Bullet design (and testing) has come a long way, but it’s still not an exact science. When I started handgunning and loading in the mid 1970’s, we didn’t have many choices. I shot into whatever I had, wood, duct seal (oil based clay), water, wet pack (newspaper & magazines THOROUGHLY soaked for at least a day before being hauled to the range), and I learned as much about test mediums as about bullets. I’m very interested in the new handgun bullet designs that claim to transmit hydrostatic shock without expanding (Lehigh Defense, Underwood Ammo), and wonder how far this concept can be developed. Hats off to you for tackling this subject.
I applaud Paul’s ability to get through this video without starting a caliber debate. Yet here I am come to turn it into a caliber debate. This video accidentally does a somewhat decent job of explaining why .45acp makes more sense than 9mm Luger. If we were to compare the two calibers using similar loadings from the same manufacturer with a proven track record of good performance, say Speer Gold Dot for example. Then when a 9mm bullet is finished expanding, it pretty much becomes a .45 caliber bullet. But when a .45 caliber bullet is finished expanding, it pretty much becomes a .70 caliber bullet. I like the peace of mind that I get knowing that even if for some stupid reason my projectile fails to expand, that I’m still punching a really big hole in the target. I’ve also watched a lot of videos of people shooting ballistic gel with various types of ammunition and I have to say that the permanent wound cavity of a fully expanded hollow point 9mm looks awfully similar to the permanent wound cavity of a .45acp fmj hardball. Also, who else noticed the deer behind Paul at 14:33?
There's some interesting choices of test guns when you read fine print on ballistics charts, like just about everyone is using a 4" barrel Walther PP for their .25 acp, .32 acp and.380 acp even though the vast majority of those are in sub 3" in typical guns and maybe even sub2" on .25s Paul mentioned the 24" .30-30 .45 colt is typically a 7.5" SAA even though most people's SAA or knockoff thereof are going to be 4.75" or 5.5" and probably the most common.45 colt platforms these days are 3" Taurus Judge. I've seen a 8" artillery Luger used as the test gun for exceptionally optimistic velocity 9x19
not sure if there's any truth to it but what I've generally heard is the manufactures intentionally load civilian ammo weak then use extra-long test barrels to juggle the numbers to something desirable. they've always got away with it because people didn't have the chronographs and ballistic gels available at a reasonable price that would justify the expense of testing the ammo to verify it performs as advertised. that's what I'm thinking anyhow because that's how it's been for me. I'm tired of paying the defensive ammo prices for stuff that doesn't work and since I have gel and a chrono I can sort that all out now for myself.
Paul I’m pretty sure manufacturer’s use something similar to a clearing barrel filled with water to test fire their ammo and that’s why they put out ammo that they might think will expand properly because the distance from muzzle to water is only a few inches, it’s just the way they have always done it and they don’t really care because the vast majority of people who purchase the ammo never actually test it or use it for it’s intended purpose
Thanks for the video. Another possible "honorable mention" is that someone isn't reading what's clearly written on the box. I bought some cheap 9mm a while back. When I ordered this ammunition, the description clearly said that it was not made for personal defense. The bullet design was technically a hollowpoint, but the bullets were not the standard jacketed hollowpoints. Instead, they were lead bullets that had been copper coated. They were loaded to what I believe were specifications for 9mm, but they were at the low end of the power spectrum. They were intended only as a lightweight target load. In that role, they were fine. Point of aim wasn't exactly what other bullets were, but they gave me a sense of whether I was shooting consistently in terms of aim and trigger pull. Using them for self-defense would have been foolish because that's not how they were manufactured.
I am in firm belief that not only do the manufacturers know exactly what they're doing with misleading ammo claims they in fact pay a lot of money to people to specifically do it.
Stating max possible velocity of the cardridge without disclosing barrel length is common practice Only high quality munitions sometimes correct reastic values since margin is so high it's worth sticking to the facts
You cannot believe marketing people. As a development engineer I've worked with Marketing personnel. As an Engineer I needed honest data. You will never get that from a sales person. And all marketing people are is sales people. All you will ever get is hype. They may not lie to you but you will never get the full story. So like Paul has demonstrated you will need to test your ammo yourself in as realistic conditions as you might expect you would encounter.
Paul is the best at these sort of practical “nuts and bolts” presentations. He is also a highly competent shooter. And can discuss engagement and or conflict tactic at high level. He is one of the best resources we have in the area of self defense. Able to distill technical information to the layman. All the best Paul. All the best to Him.
Well my father experienced this low or no expansion on his .45 dum-dums rounds during Korea. These were FMJ with cuts. Big and slow ,he would be happy with the abundance of silencers.
One of your best. Very informative and relevant to real life issues. I’ve concluded that, for me, considering these results and the higher likelihood of failure to load with Jhp, ball may have to do the job.
Hey there, Paul. On this topic, do "ballistic tip" projectiles help alleviate some of these issues, such as clogged hollow point and barrel length (to some degree)? I picture the plastic tip forcing expansion at lower velocity thresholds by some amount, but I don't have any scientific data or testing to back this thought up.
Great presentation as usual, Mr. Harrell. The example of .44 Magnum and .444 Marlin is a perfect explanation of what I TRY to tell people when I recommend against using 10mm Auto for defense. Vast majority of .40 caliber bullets since .40 S&W was introduced have been designed to expand at .40 S&W pressures/velocities at close-to-medium defensive ranges and can over-expand/under-penetrate when loaded to full pressure in 10mm (with the exception of certain hunting scenarios at long enough ranges that velocity drops back down into the optimum expansion envelope). This is also why a lot of 10mm ammunition from reputable manufacturers are down-loaded to near .40 S&W performance levels these days, which completely defeats the purpose of 10mm imho.
@@matthewdiehl1647 Yeah some of the heavy-for-caliber 10mm bullets were never redesigned for .40 S&W like the light ones were. The XTP has been around since the late '80s and .40 S&W was introduced 1990 so it's probably a holdover design from back then. I've never been a fan of the XTP though. Good accuracy but I've always had a lot of jacket separations that don't inspire confidence in me. I wonder if Speer still makes the 200gr Gold Dot and if it's a similar situation, but even then you're still probably looking at handloading or obscure manufacturers to get full performance out of either of them.
It would be interesting to do a head to head test of common test media types as a follow on to this video. How would they compare to each other? Is there any useful correlation between them? Say Meat Target, gel, water jugs and soaked newsprint with all other factors being the same.
Everyone: " Why don't hollow points expand?" Paul Harrell: " This one does quite well. Just like yo mama did back in the day. Welcome home son" Underwood: " We have ammunition for that. Ask yo mama about our penetration. We call them defenders"
A little over a year ago IWI released a bunch of 147 grain 9mm solid copper hollow points. I almost bought a bunch because of the competitive price but then I saw several gel tests and for all intents and purposes (even out of rifle barrels) it performed like fmj ammo. I don’t know if they marketed it as personal defense ammo or not though.
So much wrong here First off there's no such thing as 147g solid copper, that's the top end of 9mm and any copper bullets will be far below this weight. I know because I still carry lehigh xd. The heaviest they offer is 118g and thats a big bullet. Heavy bullet is harder to push and copper creates more friction so bullet needs to be lighter. Underwood has a 67g, 90g and 118g option. 147 is what you'd be using for subs. And no they don't act like fmj but yes penetration actually got to about 20" though out of a sub compact that won't be a problem.
@@whatsmolly5741 you are right I misremembered they were 115 grain. They were IMI 115 gr DI-cut jacketed hollow points. All the gel tests I saw had 0 expansion and 20+ inches of penetration. That’s not what I expect from a hollow point.
@@michaelmcatee221 no sht your monolithic copper bullets don't expand lol That's why jackets are made from an alloy and not simply copper. Lehigh uses a fluted design to slow the bullet down and it does a pretty good job, not as good as traditional expanding ammo but not enough of a difference for me to be concerned about over penetration. And out of a shorter barrel i actually feel a little better knowing I'm not depending on proper expansion. That being said modern defensive ammunition is very good at its intended purpose and if you go with a tried and true choice like HST or critical duty you don't need to be too worried about a failure to expand even at sub sonic speeds.
@@whatsmolly5741 it is labeled as Jacketed hollow point. It’s not one of your Lehigh style screwdriver tipped bullets. It is cut to have a hollow cavity in the front with clearly cut “petals”. It has no properties to impart hydrostatic shock without expansion and does it’s absolute best to mimic the appearance of traditional expanding hollow points.
@@whatsmolly5741 “no shit your monolithic copper bullets don’t expand” why is that axiomatic? Many monolithic copper rifle bullets expand. Also the bullets mimic traditional expanding bullets so closely in shape and nomenclature why should I assume omission of lead changes everything?
Mr. Harrell, Thank you for producing this video. I personnally believe it may be the best that you have done to date. Long time subscriber, perhaps my first comment. Much respect from an old timer.
This is one of several reasons why I carry Underwood's Xtreme Penetrator and Defender in my handguns. They don't need to expand to cause nasty wounds. Regardless, thanks again Paul for another great video! Absolutely love your channel!
Those are awesome projectiles. Don’t know if you followed the kyle Rittenhouse trial? The persecution grilled him for half a day for carrying fmj bullets and that it was careless and negligent to shoot bullets that could pass through its intended target and injure innocent bystanders. Really there’s no winning if your defending yourself in court. Stay safe out there. Cheers:)
My biggest question is whether the barrels on modern micro 9s deliver sufficient expansion. I carried a S&W Shield until Sig introduced the P365XL. The longer barrel does provide a better sighting plain, but my main reason for buying it was that I just never trusted that the 3.1 inch Shield gave sufficient velocity to be sure of expansion. I've seen that there is now a Shield Plus with a 4 inch barrel. I'd love to see some testing of 3 inch vs 3.7 vs 4.
Not an expert, but for the concern that you mention, I carry 115gr. in my 3.1 barrels and 124gr. in my full sized. Even in the short barrels, I think the 115gr. should give good expansion.
@@sylviajones3355 i think you want the opposite. Heavier projectiles tend to perform better out of shorter barrels because they typically are loaded in such a way that the powder is burned up faster. With the lighter, faster velocity projectiles they tend to have more powder behind them which takes longer to burn.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
As an OR RN at a level 1 trauma center, I've seen a lot of gunshot victims, and in cases where handgun hollowpoints were used, none of them expanded like shown in tests. In one case, a .45 hydrashock was recovered from a patients leg. It entered posterior mid thigh and ended up medially to the knee with just a hint of expansion. Not all bullets are removed, some are left based on location and risk of removal. But from the ones I've seen removed, or on XRAY, none performed as advertised.
Maybe when hollowpoints work as intended, patients don't make it to surgery? Not sure.
Most handguns don't operate at a high enough velocity to induce any expansion. Have you seen many rifle round wounds in your experience? Genuine question. Interested in your feedback.
survivers bias is a thing tbh. and you have a fair point there.
I think you nailed it with that last part. Like when helmets were implemented in combat in ww1, injuries went up. But injuries only went up cause they otherwise would've been casualties without the helmets.
So "they all fall to hard ball" geezers are right?
Off topic sort of, but on the notion of "survivor results vary" also from WW2, an engineering group took a look at the planes coming back riddled with bullet holes and they armored the sections that got all shot up and saw no improvement in returning plane numbers. A new head was added to the department who stopped armoring those sections and instead armored where the returning planes WERE NOT shot up.. and saw a massive improvement on surviving plane numbers.
Rest in peace Paul Harrell you are still teaching me!
I know why hollowpoints don't expand. Won't stop me from watching the entire episode.
Same here! I am calmed by Paul’s commentary, it’s like a warm hug from a heavy shooting jacket on a cold winters predawn hunting trip before the sun rises and the campfires coals are just barley smoking still from the previous night! So peaceful
Twice, even.
Facts
I don’t know why hollowpoints don’t expand. Won’t stop me from watching the entire episode.
Agreed, It's just cool to listen to Paul give accurate explanations.
Paul, PhD biochem and mol bio here. You absolutely used the terms "aqueous" and "gelatinous" correctly. Aqueous just means containing a majority of H2O, whereas gelatinous refers to an aqueous protein matrix like the ballistic gels used on other (lower quality) channels. 🙂
Science
@molecularalchemy7798 in complete agreement especially concerning lower quality channels !
"Try the gelatin; it's made from hooves, you know!"
I'm almost positive that a substance can be "gelatinous" without having any water....
Bet you $5 you could make a silicone based goo with some kind of protein-like structure
Considering the fact that the FBI established the gelatin standard, calling channels that feature gelatin block tests "lower quality" is *not* a slap at those channels...
Did anyone else see the deer jump out on Paul's right side about 40 yards behind him and walk through the forest @ 14:30? great explanation with a little wildlife to boot! Cheers!
LOL..right on cue for the Marlin .444 Nice.
Wow! Good eye! I dd not and was barely able to make it out when I went back to check it out.
I was wondering the same thing and looked in the comments to see if anyone mentioned it. 😅
Came to find this comment
There was another right at the end.
I've been a gun owner since I was given a Ruger 10/22 at the age of 11. I've only ever owned guns for the purposes of hunting and plinking, never for anti-personnel/self defense purposes. I've recently moved to a fairly large city, and for the first time the thought of concealed carry seems like a good idea. This channel has been instrumental in my sidearm and ammunition choices. Thank you Paul for the practical information you put out. You've helped me tremendously.
“ on todays Forgotten Weapons , if Elbonia was to adopt a CCW what would they choose ? “
@@johngriffiths118 Probably the Mossberg Shockwave loaded with Aguila mini shells
Strange time to move to a big city, most people are moving out of them
Paul is one of the few Guntubers I watch religiously. I've learned far more in the last 5 years of watching his videos than in the preceding 23 years of being a gun owner. His "Dawn of Time" explanations and "Tedious Chronograph" sessions are some of my favorite aspects to his technique.
Guns have no business being around kids! Just kidding.
Paul always goes into detail and explains things so the average Joe can understand. Thank you for your efforts and honesty Paul
Even an average Jane can understand
@@Retiredmom2 I think he's a good channel for women who want to really learn, without endless guy jokes.
true, but Not for Joe Biden.🤣😆
Excellent class today Professor Harrell.
I've watched a lot of Guntubers over the years, you are the one I've stuck with. I'm sure there are many others who feel this way.
100% Agree !!
Well, he's an instructor, he instructs. He doesn't shoot stuff just to watch it go blewy.
I watch different guntubers for different reasons. Paul and Gun Jesus for instance put out entirely different content but I watch both intently. I watch InRange for Karl's specific content. I watch taofledermaus strictly for fun.
This is my gunyoutube channel.
There are many like it but this one is mine.
Actually there are non like it.
RIP Paul
Here's a real world experience that's in line with what Paul is demonstrating. In 1979 I was involved in a gunfight with a suspect I was trying to arrest inside an apartment. He pulled out a Smith and Wesson K38 (.38 cal.) revolver( stolen) and shot me in the upper right chest from a distance of 7 feet ( yep, 7 feet). At the time I was wearing a suit coat, dress shirt and tee shirt. To make a long story short, I drew my Walther P-38 (9mm) and the gunfight was on. At the time I was loaded with Remington 115 grain jacketed hollow point and I learned later on that the stolen Smith was loaded with Super Vel 115 grain, also jacketed hollow point. When all was said and done he and I were both pretty well shot up, but here's the kicker; none of the projectiles expanded...none. I had four wounds and he had three. We both lived and he went to prison and I continued working for another 20 years. I still have the slug from the initial chest shot in my upper right lung and I'm pretty sure that my clothing plugged the hollow and kept it from expanding. Paul's presentation on all this, for me, is spot on given my own experience. Keep doing these presentations, Paul, they're very informative.
I always enjoy how Paul refers to these collegiate level courses as presentations. Keep up the great work.
I love how when he says we have to listen to him talk, even after all that gunfire, the deer come into the background to listen. I don't know, maybe they're taking notes to better survive hunting season?
I really love Paul's videos, even though so many of them tend to be outside of what shooting I may do with my 9mm 4.07" barrel or my 20 gauge with #8 birdshot, I still feel that I'm always going to learn something from them, and that something may save my life one day.
Thank you, Paul. Your videos are great, informative, and presented such that we, the audience can really understand what you are saying and doing, as well as understand not only the result, but the *why* of the result. You rock, sir!
Sontar I was wondering if anyone else saw the deer I counted 3 one way off in the back ground one about mid and one close just looking like what's Paul talking about again.
I honestly can’t quite see with my phone and low resolution. My phone can go HD but I stick to 360p as it’s much more reasonable on a smaller screen, unless I need to read smaller details. I’ve seen some in other videos, but this one, I didn’t see.
Hello fellow 20 gauge user!
Yeah, it was cool seeing the deer in the background 👍
It's a Disney film
Nice looking deer at 14:19. And the rest of the herd at 26:37.
CCI Speer used to have an excellent website for law enforcement listing all the ammo they make with expansion and penetration data, including penetration through windshields, car bodies, plywood and drywall. Example: Their 9mm Gold Dot didn't expand through a car trunk but did go on to penetrate a ballistic dummy in the back seat and the person in the front seat before lodging in the dashboard. The same style bullet would expand to 0.6" in jell and stop in 14" .
I remember that Speer site! One of my older brothers started seriously testing bullet performance 55 years ago when Speer came out with a 90 grain hot load for the 38 Special. He did a lot of testing on junked cars, but finding bounce back could be a problem on projectiles on such targets. Those 90 grs would not reliably penertrat car doors.
Also no JHP expands after sheet metal, because the initial impact closes the hollow point.
@@johnshields9110 I'm guessing thats especially true on what was presumably 1940s-50s era cars(55 years ago was 1968). It might do a little better on some newer cars with thinner sheet metal.
@@redtra236 Very likely true! The car doors in those days all had band of metal horizontally to support the doors mechanism. In the mid '70's, I know first hand a Sheriff off duty only had a J Frame so loaded, and rolled to the ground under a car door and empitied it up through the door bottom and luckily a bullet fragment hit a bad man somewhere that made him bleed a bit. I totally abandoned lighter 38 loads after that. Thanks for the reply. I carry that 130 Winchester HP that is supposed to be a top defensive load now.
@@chuckhaggard1584after a career in LE, much of it as a use-of-force investigator, you are absolutely, positively, dead- on...
WRONG.
Hard barriers May crush the petals, usually doesn't many factors involved. However, your blanket statement is about as wrong as can be as blanket statements.
Now drywall and wood? Much more likely to prevent soft tissue expansion, not because it damages the petals, because it fills the cavity and turns the HP bullet into an FMJ, practically speaking.
How is Paul Harrell so low on subscribers? He's not for everyone, because he's not Tacticool, but he should be at a couple million at least for the quality of his content! SMASH THAT LIKE BUTTON PEOPLE & help Paul out!!!
I enjoy his videos but he does indirectly shame people that would most benefit from the information. Some of his impressions etc. seem passive aggressive to me. Tolerable and better than tacticool yokels? In my opinion yes but I could see some people getting turned off by his communication style.
I’ve been watching him for a few years and just realized I wasn’t subscribed. I’m not sure if I forgot to subscribe or if YT unsubscribed me. It really makes no difference to me though because I still get recommended his videos, and I have so many subscriptions after 17 years that I don’t even look at my subscription feed.
@@SushiArmageddon Paul does moan a bit too much about his detractors, but he is the gun tuber I watch the most, guess I’m getting grumpy as I get older too lol.
@@Eagle-eye-pie I like him in general so Im not complaining just offering my perspective. Im only 32 and Im already a grumpy old man myself.
He doesn't do any promos or sponsorships that's why
Wow. It's so weird. I normally comment something, if I have anything of remote value to offer, but in this case, I just felt an almost odd need to just say "thank you".
Thank you for the video.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for giving us something that's equal parts entertaining, informative, thought provoking, and so on.
There's much to be appreciative of in these presentations.
However I wasn't expecting to see the amount of other people also saying thank you for various other reasons. This is easily one of the more polite and pleasant little communities to interact with, so seeing a bunch of you people being nice to each other isn't odd, but the specific amount of commenters who's purpose is to say thank you seems markedly higher in this one. Weird how that happens. I know that there is some kind of element of shared consciousness. Almost like a radio signal that we're all tuned in to. Even though I've been aware of that for many years, it still surprises me in a way when I see it reveal itself in such a manner.
Exactly!
Once people find something they like, they likely have a similar mindset to what they are viewing. Sadly, it took me a while to find Paul; I've only been watching for the last 2-3 years. I wish I had found him earlier!
For a relatively young man, you give the impression you know whereof you speak. I'm impressed.
Mid to late fifties is relatively young?
Thanks for making the Why Hollow Points Fail to Expand video.
Whenever Paul says “you’re going to have to listen to me talk and talk and ramble on for the dawn of time explanation”, or something like that, who else besides me goes and pops a bag of popcorn to excitedly sit down and really listen to what he has to say?
it's why I'm here
I have been reloading close to 20 years and have a lot of knowledge in this subject by my own testing of different calibers and different types and brands projectiles. In a reloading manual it will show how much FPS you must obtain for that bullet to perform and it is specific to pistol and rifle barrel lengths written right in the book for that cartridge, but Paul hit this right on the head👌
Even with sufficient velocity, you need a good impact to get "perfect expansion"
A lot of the time you don't get "good shots" in self-defense situations; you shoot until the problem goes away.
I beat you to the handloading game by a factor of 2, but what made me go to handloading in the first place was a particularly poor example of projectile performance. A buddy and I were out shooting and I tried my new 45 ACP pistol against a variety of plastic bottles filled with water. One was a comparitively thick walled bottle, some kind of carpet shampoo I think. It was red. My Blazer 45 ACP load not only did not blow the bottle up as expected, but failed to penetrate the bottle at all, simply knocking it down really hard. The bullet shed its jacket and a bit of that jacket bounced back and hit me in the leg, feeling for all the world like a bug strike at street speeds; I could tell I got hit, but it was completely nonconsequential. I found the copper jacket fragment on the ground at my feet. My first handloads, on the other hand (185g jacketed hollow point propelled by 6.5 or so grains of Unique), provided the expected bottle rupture and "explosion". I kept the red bottle specifically to test again with my handloaded ammo. In the years since, I still load for performance, but now mostly for minimum recoil while meeting power factor for IDPA and USPSA competition. I *did* load some pretty hot Power Pistol 40S&W loads that made IDPA power factor out of a 3.1" barrel. They were gloriously loud and flashy.
@@Stop_Gooning that is a very true statement because someone can come at you in all different sizes and many ways, so it's not like it's going to be a set distance and stationary target, same goes for hunting.
Love the car. TransAms and LSx motors are a world I love. lol Sorry, totally off topic, but recognized the car immediately in the picture.
Excellent presentation, Paul. Another reason a hollow point might not expand properly, is that sometimes they can tumble around backwards when entering tissue. This can be due to unstable flight or glancing off of a bone just under the skin.
As a retired LEO with 30 years, I have personal experience with 9mm zipping through a person. Clean in and out with no expansion. Two different bullet makes, mine was a Black Talon and my partners was a Gold Dot. People are not gel blocks or stacks of magazines and so many variables and scenarios. Enjoy all of your videos.
PH is absolutely the best at explaining and providing useful information in an engaging manner. I bet he could talk about almost any topic and still be a star.
Woot storytime with Paul Harrell
26:55. Love seeing the deer in the background. Thanks for another excellent video.
You can really show hollow-point clogging if you shoot thru paper or books. Now, I know people are not going to walk around with metro phone books taped to themselves, and I know I'm dating myself when I mention the words "phone books".
Hey Paul, thanks for reaching out to us regarding this matter., great video 😊
sleazy advert:
"Are your hollow points not expanding like they used to?
It could be caused by _low T_ as you get older."
Very valuable content as always. Also, I'm really digging the "spot the deer in the background" game in all the recent videos.
This channel is always number 1 in terms of the thoroughness of its analysis and the practicality of its approach. Can't say enough good words about it.
Thanks Paul. Awesome, just the right amount of Sarcasm ... and to the point. Cheers 🙏
"And it requires a Dawn of Time explanatoin." Ok, Mr. Harrell, you hold on a sec and let me get a mug of tea, I'll be right back to listen intently.
This was an outstanding presentation. Paul Harrell demonstrated that hollow point expansion happens due to a combination of multiple conditions with bullet design (hollow point construction) being only one factor. I've read other experts claim that expanding bullets were three times as effective as non-expanding bullets--and that the difference between an expanding bullet that works as advertised and a non-expanding bullet is only about 10%. That's just expansion.
Then there's penetration--the bullet has to penetrate deeply enough to inflict damage to something that the organism can't live without.
As with real estate the three most important items are location, location, location! If the bullet doesn't hit, the bullet has no effect--the NOISE may have effect but not the bullet. That bullet has to hit something important, penetrating deeply enough and damaging the vitals.
Thank you for this video. Never thought I would be so entertained and informed about this subject. It was nice to meet you yesterday at the Rickreall gun show. Very polite and gracious.
@patriciaeich1098, wish I could have been there. I met Paul once in passing but due to circumstances it was brief. Not surprised he was gracious.
I have learned so much from this man. His testing and demonstrations are amazing. Thank you Sir for all your hard work and time. You are very appreciated!
Hey Paul I've been a long time watcher and I always enjoy your content. I also really appreciate your point of view and the fact that you keep it professional and your videos aren't filled with vulgarity! You show people that you can have great content and every other word you say doesn't have to be the F word or GD. Thank you and keep it up!
damn
Are you anti-profanity? Slouch.
Kinda fucking cool eh?
Hey Paul, it was good to see you at the gun show yesterday, thanks for signing my improvised holster.
If the camera SNAFUs were battery-related, it's probably cool weather interfering with the battery performance. Keeping the spare batteries in a pocket or under your jacket can keep them warm enough to get more performance out of them.
His pockets are full of GUNS! 😁👍
Once again excellent video. Also loved the critter in the background at 14:32. Might be others but those were the first I saw. I wonder if they were listening and trying to get an education as well.
The deer at 14:18 - 14:38 ... Oregon is quite beautiful!
Mr. Paul Harrell,
Been watching /listening /learning from you for years (nearly decades it seems).
ALWAYS enjoyed your work!
ALWAYS learned something!
ALWAYS impressed by your efforts!
BUT, somehow, this episode REALLY stood out, to me, as to the complexity of your preparation, execution!
THANK YOU Paul Harrell!!
Stay with us as long as possible!
God grant you peace knowing that you contributed greatly to your fellow citizens! 😊😊😊
Solid content . PH puts a great deal of effort and science into his presentations. I enjoy how he trained that deer to walk around in the background. Excellent range location PH. More please!
Thank you for putting this topic into “layman’s “ terms! Have wondered for years why some HP’s expand and some don’t. Everyone needs to take their fire arm with their chosen ammo and test as Paul does and make appropriate changes if necessary for what each individual is looking to accomplish. Thanks Paul and crew!
8:40 with a full lesson, plus 20 minutes to look forward to!
As much as I feel I know the answer to this question, I have no question that I'm going to learn a lot from this video
@Dogleg don't take anyone's word. Test it out.
Thanks Paul, for taking the time to actually read and respond to all of our (no doubt sometimes inane) questions that get sent to you. These always make fairly informative videos. What's assumed to be common knowledge by some may be completely new information to others.
Once again, excellent video with a great lesson on the subject, and looking forward to another Easter demonstration.
Thanksgiving and Christmas are also awesome!
Me too !!!
Paul, can you please do a video on rifle slings? Different types, how to mount them, how to use them properly, etc?
I love your work and I’m happy to support you on Patreon. It’s well worth the knowledge I’ve learned from watching your videos the last few years. Thank you!
Your testing protocol discussion reminded me of government employee training. The tests are designed so that you are going to pass no matter what you know.
Excellent video. Hollow point expansion or lack there of, has always been a point of concern for me. You've cleared up and explained away a lot.
The best gun content on youtube, period. You had the best table at the rickreal gun show as well, Paul.
Miwall is a staple of the Crossroads of the West gun shows here in Phoenix/Arizona (I don't know about other areas). They sell a huge variety of ammo from various manufacturers. I also believe they do (or did) "remanufacture" their own line of ammo. So, if that's the case, then essentially you had reloads using XTP projectiles, not 'factory' ammunition. By reloading with less powder but using "premium" projectiles, they can increase their margin on the sale. Caveat Emptor, to be sure.
I agree with the medical examiner in the comments that spoke of the patients they see (alive) with gunshot wounds. The hollow points barely opened at all in the gunshot survivors they examined, i.e. the ammo did not work as advertised. They then further state that perhaps that is because the ones that get shot where the hollow point *does* exand properly, perhaps they went straight to the morgue instead of making it to the ER- thus the reason they never see fully expanded hollow points in SURVIVORS. Reasons for failed expansion include but aren't limited to: velocity too low due to pistol being too small, poor bullet design, thick barriers including clothes, etc.
What an excellent (and fair minded) discussion of factors that influence hollow point expansion, or lack thereof. Back in the "old days", meaning before chronographs were within reach of almost everyone, ammo maker "shenanigans" were on full display, including testing carried out using longer than standard laboratory test barrels that were not found in any actual handgun. These were designed to cater to the "faster is always better" crowd.
Most of my testing over the years has been done with law enforcement and defense cartridges. I'd like to recognize the people at Federal and Speer, since the early 90's, who have used actual common law enforcement firearms for their testing, and who have always readily disclosed to me what they used as test firearms in common calibers. This may have been a function of me being a law enforcement officer at the time, and I honestly don't know if they are as forthcoming with other customers.
One thing I have noted about them is that they take input from LE agencies and tweak loads based on that input, such that for example, a load might be reduced a bit based on the ability of officers to handle recoil or even muzzle flash, and armorer reports of wear on firearms. So, their LE oriented loads may not always be the hottest rounds you can buy. But since the LE rounds are all tested on the FBI protocols, their results are quite easy to replicate, and I have found their representations pf performance to be highly reliable. Another point to consider that is not made often is that most American Eagle and Speer Lawman loads are designed as practice analogs for duty rounds, just without an expanding projectile, lacquer sealing, or flash suppressed powders. So if your HST or Gold Dot loads have been "tamed" a bit for duty use, you will typically find your AE and Lawman loads in the same bullet weight have been as well. In this regard, I can only speak to their loads intended for law enforcement use. Other loads not intended for LE duty guns may behave differently. A good example was the Federal HST 150 grain 9mm load. This load was designed for use in the very popular 9mm micro pistols where reduced recoil was a priority. These behaved nothing like HST LE loads, and to my knowledge were not evaluated with the full FBI battery of FBI tests in mind.
I'm also impressed that Federal and Speer sponsor field wound ballistic workshops for LE agencies in which they bring out the proper equipment to demonstrate their products or to test what the agency might be using. In the first one I attended, my agency was using a Winchester Ranger 155 grain .40 S&W load. After testing, the Federal rep told me, "While we'd love to have you switch to our products, I can't honestly tell you that what we offer is better than what you already have. You are using very good ammunition". I truly appreciated this level of honesty. I have no reason to suspect that Winchester is not as honest about their LE products, I just have not had as much experience with their cartridges. My sense is that today, the major makers of LE ammo are not in the business of lying to their customers, while some of the smaller makers might still engage in a few shenanigans. On the other hand there are some boutique makers such as Underwood who are very honest about what they offer as well. Buffalo Bore even specifies on their website the velocities they get from specific firearms. Overall it seems to be a good time to be choosing defense ammo in terms of knowing what you are getting.
Here is a link to FBI test results published for common LE cartridges by Federal and Speer. When I was working, I was able to replicate a lot of these tests, and got very similar results with duty length firearms. People might find this interesting, especially the ability to compare cartridges side by side.
le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
This is one thing I appreciate about the The Buffalo Bore ammunition. They test their ammunition in "real world" firearms. My chronographs over the years have demonstrated that Buffalo Bore ammo lives up to or slightly exceeds their advertised velocities.
I don't agree with some of the viewpoints of Buffalo Bore's owner on other topics but who cares? Their ammunition is high quality and extremely reliable.
I have absolutely no reason to promote Buffalo Bore ammunition other than it lives up to what it's clamed to be! I use it in Ruger Redhawk, GP100'S , and Super Blackhawks because they can handle this full potential 357 and 44 Magnum loads all day.
Is their ammo more effective for a given purpose? I have no clue. I'm confident that their heavy hardcast gas-checked stutff is about as good as one can do for bear protection in magnum revolvers. Yes there are bears where I camp and hike.
This is a great presentation. It should be a mandatory watch for all bullet and cartridge manufacturers of self-defense intended ammo. There are some manufactures that now list velocities and barrel length tested, not many and not enough. Some handgun bullets need +P velocities (whatever that is these days) to reach expansion threshold, XTP's being one, others will do so from a 3"-ish barrel without the hyped +P velocities, I've discovered a few. I used to handload my defense cartridges, an attorney advised using what LE uses or some king of commercially produced ammo to avoid the question, " So you were thinking about shooting someone when you were making the ammunition?" Objection sustained but seed planted in the jurors mind. The answer to that would, by design and purpose, be "uhh, yeah" and there you are.
It's Nice that i can watch Paul's new Video while enjoying my Morning Coffee
The obsolete Federal Nyclad hollow point expanded very well. Speer used to make a semi jacketed kieth style hollow point with exposed lead that expanded well. My experience with these projectiles showed that soft nose bullets in 357 and 44 have a problem penetrating hard targets like car bodies. The ideal for me is the hard cast kieth style semi wadcutter with a gas check that can be driven to magnum velocities. If cast correctly correctly it has a sharp shoulder that cuts a good wound canal and gives excellent penetration. These bullets would succeed in penetrating car bodies if hardened properly. See LEAD BULLET TECHNOLOGY, in moyea springs Idaho.
This video explained two law enforcement shooting's I saw happen.. one a shirtless man with immediate incapacitation and extreme wound cavity.. and one where the individual was a biker wearing leather and other layers. The biker basically never was incapacitated and opted to surrender and was on his feet until the ambulance came..
Nice one, Paul - I think this is one of your best videos, of late. Ammo comparisons and tests are useful and somewhat interesting, but this one really ties all those others together nicely!
Kudos to the shooter who asked original question. I agree with all you said. Many years ago I worked in the ballistic lab of a major ammo manufacturer. In those days we used blocks of beeswax as the expansion medium. The wax was sued to lubricate 22 ammo. We tried very hard to get 'real world" results, but it was not us who published the velocity on the box. That was the marketing gurus. As for the plugged hollow point problem, that is a real issue and Hornady tries to solve it with a plastic plug in the hollow point. I have often wondered if I could take an otherwise good (and cheap) hollowpoint bullet and fill the cavity with wax to prevent clogging. That deer target at 14:30 looked very real.
Just tried watching Garand's new production. Couldn't. Realized he's been compromised by Sig. Unsubbed from him. It's gross. Then realized America has been compromised by WEF. Paul, you're the the last American (and fellow Oregonian) gun guy worth a shit. Don't change baby. Love ya. #GODUCKS
Thank yoy for your time and effort to inform and entertain us.
It's mostly about the velocity. When someone asks me if a certain bullet is good for deer hunting I always say it depends. A 140 grain nosler accubond may not be best choice for a 6.5 creedmore at long distance. Just like a 150 grain nosler ballistic tip might no be the best choice for a 300 win mag at close range.
Watching Paul drop knowledge bombs is a Sunday well spent.
The human body is not ballistic gel. In a real fight, nothing is going to work as planned. With a pistol, you are going to need multiple hits in vital areas to stop someone unless you just get lucky. It does not work the way you see it in the movies. Stay safe everyone.
Keeping my eyes out for deer .
Paul we are here to hear u ramble 🫡
Weirdly I’ve bought Winchester White Box hollow points as blaster ammo for practice and feeding. Turns out it’s also really decent and expands quite reliably.
I bought a bunch of WWB 147 JHP a while ago. They cycle my guns (meaning my carry guns) perfectly and my expectations on ballistic performance from handguns is low anyway.
Paul your videos are the only ones I watch all the way through , you are a great teacher !
Thank you Paul Harrell for all your valuable information you provided for us
Thanks Paul, another excellent and informative showing as usual. Great job.
As always great knowledge Paul. Also as we all know Paul has 8 pockets, and 15 guns on hand at all times!
I love the deer cameo to your right at 14:23! Great video good explanation! Well presented!
Great.👍 That really lays it out. Bullet design (and testing) has come a long way, but it’s still not an exact science. When I started handgunning and loading in the mid 1970’s, we didn’t have many choices. I shot into whatever I had, wood, duct seal (oil based clay), water, wet pack (newspaper & magazines THOROUGHLY soaked for at least a day before being hauled to the range), and I learned as much about test mediums as about bullets. I’m very interested in the new handgun bullet designs that claim to transmit hydrostatic shock without expanding (Lehigh Defense, Underwood Ammo), and wonder how far this concept can be developed. Hats off to you for tackling this subject.
I applaud Paul’s ability to get through this video without starting a caliber debate. Yet here I am come to turn it into a caliber debate. This video accidentally does a somewhat decent job of explaining why .45acp makes more sense than 9mm Luger. If we were to compare the two calibers using similar loadings from the same manufacturer with a proven track record of good performance, say Speer Gold Dot for example. Then when a 9mm bullet is finished expanding, it pretty much becomes a .45 caliber bullet. But when a .45 caliber bullet is finished expanding, it pretty much becomes a .70 caliber bullet. I like the peace of mind that I get knowing that even if for some stupid reason my projectile fails to expand, that I’m still punching a really big hole in the target. I’ve also watched a lot of videos of people shooting ballistic gel with various types of ammunition and I have to say that the permanent wound cavity of a fully expanded hollow point 9mm looks awfully similar to the permanent wound cavity of a .45acp fmj hardball.
Also, who else noticed the deer behind Paul at 14:33?
There's some interesting choices of test guns when you read fine print on ballistics charts, like just about everyone is using a 4" barrel Walther PP for their .25 acp, .32 acp and.380 acp even though the vast majority of those are in sub 3" in typical guns and maybe even sub2" on .25s
Paul mentioned the 24" .30-30
.45 colt is typically a 7.5" SAA even though most people's SAA or knockoff thereof are going to be 4.75" or 5.5" and probably the most common.45 colt platforms these days are 3" Taurus Judge.
I've seen a 8" artillery Luger used as the test gun for exceptionally optimistic velocity 9x19
not sure if there's any truth to it but what I've generally heard is the manufactures intentionally load civilian ammo weak then use extra-long test barrels to juggle the numbers to something desirable. they've always got away with it because people didn't have the chronographs and ballistic gels available at a reasonable price that would justify the expense of testing the ammo to verify it performs as advertised. that's what I'm thinking anyhow because that's how it's been for me. I'm tired of paying the defensive ammo prices for stuff that doesn't work and since I have gel and a chrono I can sort that all out now for myself.
Paul I’m pretty sure manufacturer’s use something similar to a clearing barrel filled with water to test fire their ammo and that’s why they put out ammo that they might think will expand properly because the distance from muzzle to water is only a few inches, it’s just the way they have always done it and they don’t really care because the vast majority of people who purchase the ammo never actually test it or use it for it’s intended purpose
I just had this video autoplay and never heard of you Paul, but after watching video I subbed. Love the format and that you provide real information.
Very informative. Thank you, Paul. Your research is very helpful !!!
Great video. Thanks Paul!
Paul such a badass that even the deer want to hang out with him!👍
Thanks for the video.
Another possible "honorable mention" is that someone isn't reading what's clearly written on the box. I bought some cheap 9mm a while back. When I ordered this ammunition, the description clearly said that it was not made for personal defense. The bullet design was technically a hollowpoint, but the bullets were not the standard jacketed hollowpoints. Instead, they were lead bullets that had been copper coated. They were loaded to what I believe were specifications for 9mm, but they were at the low end of the power spectrum. They were intended only as a lightweight target load. In that role, they were fine. Point of aim wasn't exactly what other bullets were, but they gave me a sense of whether I was shooting consistently in terms of aim and trigger pull. Using them for self-defense would have been foolish because that's not how they were manufactured.
I am in firm belief that not only do the manufacturers know exactly what they're doing with misleading ammo claims they in fact pay a lot of money to people to specifically do it.
I also hold that belief.
I haven't been very impressed with Remington ammunition. It seems that none I have used actually lived up to its numbers.
Stating max possible velocity of the cardridge without disclosing barrel length is common practice
Only high quality munitions sometimes correct reastic values since margin is so high it's worth sticking to the facts
You cannot believe marketing people. As a development engineer I've worked with Marketing personnel. As an Engineer I needed honest data. You will never get that from a sales person. And all marketing people are is sales people. All you will ever get is hype. They may not lie to you but you will never get the full story.
So like Paul has demonstrated you will need to test your ammo yourself in as realistic conditions as you might expect you would encounter.
This makes me want to carry 45 230 gr fmj.
Paul is the best at these sort of practical “nuts and bolts” presentations.
He is also a highly competent shooter. And can discuss engagement and or conflict tactic at high level. He is one of the best resources we have in the area of self defense. Able to distill technical information to the layman.
All the best Paul.
All the best to Him.
im gonna miss you very much, rest in peace
Thank You Paul and Crew.
Well my father experienced this low or no expansion on his .45 dum-dums rounds during Korea. These were FMJ with cuts. Big and slow ,he would be happy with the abundance of silencers.
One of your best. Very informative and relevant to real life issues. I’ve concluded that, for me, considering these results and the higher likelihood of failure to load with Jhp, ball may have to do the job.
Hey there, Paul. On this topic, do "ballistic tip" projectiles help alleviate some of these issues, such as clogged hollow point and barrel length (to some degree)? I picture the plastic tip forcing expansion at lower velocity thresholds by some amount, but I don't have any scientific data or testing to back this thought up.
Great presentation as usual, Mr. Harrell. The example of .44 Magnum and .444 Marlin is a perfect explanation of what I TRY to tell people when I recommend against using 10mm Auto for defense. Vast majority of .40 caliber bullets since .40 S&W was introduced have been designed to expand at .40 S&W pressures/velocities at close-to-medium defensive ranges and can over-expand/under-penetrate when loaded to full pressure in 10mm (with the exception of certain hunting scenarios at long enough ranges that velocity drops back down into the optimum expansion envelope). This is also why a lot of 10mm ammunition from reputable manufacturers are down-loaded to near .40 S&W performance levels these days, which completely defeats the purpose of 10mm imho.
Ive heard the Hornady 10mm xtp in 200 grain is made to 10mm specs
@@matthewdiehl1647 Yeah some of the heavy-for-caliber 10mm bullets were never redesigned for .40 S&W like the light ones were. The XTP has been around since the late '80s and .40 S&W was introduced 1990 so it's probably a holdover design from back then. I've never been a fan of the XTP though. Good accuracy but I've always had a lot of jacket separations that don't inspire confidence in me. I wonder if Speer still makes the 200gr Gold Dot and if it's a similar situation, but even then you're still probably looking at handloading or obscure manufacturers to get full performance out of either of them.
It would be interesting to do a head to head test of common test media types as a follow on to this video. How would they compare to each other? Is there any useful correlation between them? Say Meat Target, gel, water jugs and soaked newsprint with all other factors being the same.
I would like to see that
8:48 “We’re out on our *range* today, so please bear with any skinwalker screams you may hear in the background.”
Everyone: " Why don't hollow points expand?"
Paul Harrell: " This one does quite well. Just like yo mama did back in the day. Welcome home son"
Underwood: " We have ammunition for that. Ask yo mama about our penetration. We call them defenders"
Hahahaa
"We call this jacketed hollow point "Yo Mama" because when she gets her clothes off it ain't pretty and her expansion performance is proven."
A little over a year ago IWI released a bunch of 147 grain 9mm solid copper hollow points. I almost bought a bunch because of the competitive price but then I saw several gel tests and for all intents and purposes (even out of rifle barrels) it performed like fmj ammo. I don’t know if they marketed it as personal defense ammo or not though.
So much wrong here
First off there's no such thing as 147g solid copper, that's the top end of 9mm and any copper bullets will be far below this weight.
I know because I still carry lehigh xd.
The heaviest they offer is 118g and thats a big bullet.
Heavy bullet is harder to push and copper creates more friction so bullet needs to be lighter.
Underwood has a 67g, 90g and 118g option.
147 is what you'd be using for subs.
And no they don't act like fmj but yes penetration actually got to about 20" though out of a sub compact that won't be a problem.
@@whatsmolly5741 you are right I misremembered they were 115 grain. They were IMI 115 gr DI-cut jacketed hollow points. All the gel tests I saw had 0 expansion and 20+ inches of penetration. That’s not what I expect from a hollow point.
@@michaelmcatee221 no sht your monolithic copper bullets don't expand lol
That's why jackets are made from an alloy and not simply copper.
Lehigh uses a fluted design to slow the bullet down and it does a pretty good job, not as good as traditional expanding ammo but not enough of a difference for me to be concerned about over penetration. And out of a shorter barrel i actually feel a little better knowing I'm not depending on proper expansion.
That being said modern defensive ammunition is very good at its intended purpose and if you go with a tried and true choice like HST or critical duty you don't need to be too worried about a failure to expand even at sub sonic speeds.
@@whatsmolly5741 it is labeled as Jacketed hollow point. It’s not one of your Lehigh style screwdriver tipped bullets. It is cut to have a hollow cavity in the front with clearly cut “petals”. It has no properties to impart hydrostatic shock without expansion and does it’s absolute best to mimic the appearance of traditional expanding hollow points.
@@whatsmolly5741 “no shit your monolithic copper bullets don’t expand” why is that axiomatic? Many monolithic copper rifle bullets expand. Also the bullets mimic traditional expanding bullets so closely in shape and nomenclature why should I assume omission of lead changes everything?
Mr. Harrell,
Thank you for producing this video. I personnally believe it may be the best that you have done to date.
Long time subscriber, perhaps my first comment.
Much respect from an old timer.
This is one of several reasons why I carry Underwood's Xtreme Penetrator and Defender in my handguns. They don't need to expand to cause nasty wounds. Regardless, thanks again Paul for another great video! Absolutely love your channel!
Plus if you can't find a Philips head screwdriver you're still covered.
Those are awesome projectiles. Don’t know if you followed the kyle Rittenhouse trial? The persecution grilled him for half a day for carrying fmj bullets and that it was careless and negligent to shoot bullets that could pass through its intended target and injure innocent bystanders. Really there’s no winning if your defending yourself in court. Stay safe out there. Cheers:)
@@jeffhuntley2921correct. If he would have used hollow points they would have accused him of wanting to do more damage than required to the target.
I do a lot of this kind of thing just for fun and have for years . But I still love watching your tests . Very informative .
My biggest question is whether the barrels on modern micro 9s deliver sufficient expansion. I carried a S&W Shield until Sig introduced the P365XL. The longer barrel does provide a better sighting plain, but my main reason for buying it was that I just never trusted that the 3.1 inch Shield gave sufficient velocity to be sure of expansion. I've seen that there is now a Shield Plus with a 4 inch barrel. I'd love to see some testing of 3 inch vs 3.7 vs 4.
Make sure your shot breaks while punching out for extra velocity.
Look into Winchester silver hp I did stack paper test like shooting phone books with the 365 it's now what I carry from my results
Not an expert, but for the concern that you mention, I carry 115gr. in my 3.1 barrels and 124gr. in my full sized. Even in the short barrels, I think the 115gr. should give good expansion.
@@sylviajones3355 i think you want the opposite. Heavier projectiles tend to perform better out of shorter barrels because they typically are loaded in such a way that the powder is burned up faster. With the lighter, faster velocity projectiles they tend to have more powder behind them which takes longer to burn.
@@SushiArmageddon 🤔
HP expansion occurs because of hydraulic pressure. And the amount of pressure is dependent on velocity not bullet diameter or weight.
You suggest unrealistic or improper testing protocol.
I suggest no testing was done at all, that just increases cost and decreases profit margins.