Great content, glad I found your channel. Thought I'd make it easier lol TIME STAMP 0:49 The equipment 1:56 Start the games (Close ups!) 3:29 Long Distance spotting 5:57 Tree Line Walk Off (R to L) 6:56 IR Illuminator Demonstration (Various distances)
I’ve had the Helion, the Helion 2 and the Helion 2 Pro (this is the one currently in the video). Each one was successively more impressive when I was already impressed by the previous generation. The original Helion had a NETD sensitivity of less than 65 millikelvins (the amount of difference in temperature necessary for the device to register the difference and colorize it). That was amazing. Most of my older videos were shot with the original Helion. The Helion 2 came out with a sensor that could detect variations in temperature almost half what the original could, clocking in at less than 40 mk NETD. The “less than” simply means the worst a sensor could be was being able to distinguish 40mk differences, but you could get one off the shelf that was even more sensitive (lower number). Basically when they make them, there are variations in sensitivity in the sensors, and they have to meet a minimum performance standard to be sold. My videos shot about two years ago were with the mark 2 model. The Helion 2 Pro has an even better rating, having a minimum NETD sensitivity of less than 25 millikelvins. The crispness and sensitivity of this unit is phenomenal. I’ve had this unit for about a year now. It can detect such minor differences in temperature and colorize them, it is crazy. And that’s just using default settings. You can tune it, adjusting settings to match environment, tweak contrast and brightness, and it can get even better. I usually don’t bother though and just click through one of the pre-fab defaults until I find one that looks good enough for what I’m doing in the moment. I love this thing! It’s incredibly difficult to hide from or defeat, which is why I love trying to defeat it!!! :)
Outstanding video. They both have very significant strengths and weaknesses. IMO, NV is more generalized and practical for basic tasks (walking, driving, shooting); while thermal is exceptional at spotting/shooting, and terrible at general tasks. It sucks to hear, but both are needed.
I definitely agree with you. Any doubts in anyones minds… try driving a car by thermal mounted to your helmet instead of NVGs. Now THATS an experience!! LOL! I like the NVGs for navigating, and for rapid movement in close quarters. It’s not thermals fault, but, it’s still a computer with a refresh rate, and even at 30hz, 50hz or 60hz, it’s still possible to move too fast when your target is also moving too fast in close quarters and you get choppy interruption in visual stream. Not good in CQB. Anyway, this video was specifically addressing the situation from a defenders perspective. And that’s kind of how I see the break down. For active move to contact, CQB, navigating, driving, NVGs tend to win the day. For defensive posture, hunting, tracking, surveillance, search and rescue, and environments with literally no light (caves, underground basements with no windows, inside pipes like water or fuel or sewage, warehouses without windows and the lights off), or during structure fires or when smoke is deployed, thermals win the day. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.
@@ThatThermalGuy completely agree. Driving SLOWLY w thermals is possible-ish, on something like a UTV (w no windshield) but that’s it. You’re exactly right, on the application for defensive use. Have you seen Sicario II, where the guy wants the thermals for driving down a dusty road, IN A TRUCK. Lol.
Yay, you're back! How is your back? BTW I'm a subscriber, and I didn't get a notification I think there's a checkbox when you upload that makes it so subscribers are alerted.
Oh jeez. I must have missed it! Thanks for the heads up! Yeah, I’m back. :) Going to start trying to regularly make vids again. Back is healed, thankfully. Bunch of life stuff, but hey, that’s everyone right? :) Good to see you!
My personal experience is NV is like being color blind, only having one eye (unless you have a binocular set up), extremely farsighted, and there's always some noise that makes you think things are moving that aren't.
Thermal is best for spotting, but it isn't "better" you need IIT night vision as well to ID. A modern example is in Ukraine where there is a lot of friendly fire at night due to thermals. During the Ukraine civil war, thermals did not cause friendly fire because the Ukrainian government was attacking static civilian positions which evolved into a kind of trench warfare so everyone was on the same side were in the same location. The current Ukraine war is heavy on skirmishing so the OPFOR could appear anywhere, even between elements, so locational cues and coordination won't work. Thermal glint tape helps, but it doesn't work well at distance. This is why modern night vision is all hybrid like the ENVG (which Joe Biden gave to the Taliban before most of our own servicemen got them) and the FPANO.
you can’t move and navigate as well with thermal. due to the digital lag it’s like trying to walk looking through the camera on your phone only. it’s just not real time enough to be practical. it’s so much better for spotting but not as feasible for movement.
Thanks for the great channel, you really helped me figure out how the thermal camouflage works. But there are still some questions left! And I think it would be interesting to test it in practice! It would be very interesting to know how a person in normal warm clothing (like thermal underwear, sweater, something thick made of natural fabric or anything like that) would look like when it was completely wet and a dry ghillie suit was put on top of it. I think this is the easiest and cheapest way, but I'm not sure how effective it will be. The water will evaporate and cool the person, and the person will not suffer from overheating, but will it be enough to at least mask him from the thermal imager? I don't think it would be worthwhile to wet the ghillie suit so it's not colder than the environment.
As far as I know, glass is not transparent to thermovision, but I am not sure about plastics. The face seems to be the weak point of many camouflage suits, so maybe you should make the hood even deeper and make some kind of sewn-in goggles? Or just cover the face with a face shield mask?
@@edwardlori4627 I will try to respond more fully to you tonight. Thank you for your comments. I like your idea about the wet clothes and ghillie suit. Will see if I can work out a test for that. :) As to thermoplastic’s, the thicker plastics I’ve tested block thermal well. Thinner plastics, like garbage bags, painters drop cloth, visqueen, etc., , depending on type and thickness may block, or may be completely transparent. Currently I recommend a riot faceshield or gas masks to block facial signatures while still being able to see your target. Ski googles work too, but the uncovered face is still visible. You can see googles, balaclavas, and gas masks in my other videos. The conventional approach in addressing the face in individual suit thermal camoflauge has been lots and lots of hanging layers tied to netting over the face. It’s a facial obscurant, but also difficult to see through.
@@ThatThermalGuy Thanks for the quick and detailed response! I am looking forward to the tests! And I have one more idea. It seems that the main purpose of thermal masking is to keep the outer layer from heating up from the user's body heat. But using an insulator is a bit inconvenient in my opinion. What if just alienating the ghillie poncho by making an air layer? I think it is possible to just make plastic rings out of small bottles and connect them as I have drawn. (RUclips seems to block posts with links... That's the third time I've posted this, so the link will be in a separate message.) The balls made from the rings are large and resilient enough to keep the poncho from touching the body, but soft enough not to embarrass the user too much. It will also distort the shape of the person and not overheat the wearer. If the elasticity proves insufficient, more plastic rings can always be added. And if the heat still gets through, it is possible to add a layer of fabric in the middle of the balls. However, the rings have to be cut and glued in place for this.
@@edwardlori4627 I mentioned thicker plastics do well at blocking thermal signature. I showed ski googles (clear lenses) and shooting glasses (clear lenses!) in this video (along with a balaclava): ruclips.net/video/BAu0kJvJCzk/видео.html And I show a couple different Gas masks in this video: ruclips.net/video/-Zu20rxcJo4/видео.html You can see the reduction in facial signature in all of these cases is pretty significant. You mentioned thermal masking involves keeping the outer layer from heating up. Yes, most approaches go this route. Keeping the outer layer from heating up is accomplished a couple ways. Using layers of mesh that readily vent heat so its not trapped and doesn’t build up heat to transfer to the outer alyer is one approach. The other approach is using materials that block the movement of heat through materials (heavy insulation). With approach number one, the mesh, there is still heat signature visible to the camera, its just greatly reduced. With approach number two, almost the entirety of the signature is blocked. The downside, is that heat has nowhere to go and that heat trapping affects the operator as ambient temperature rises. The mesh approach works well in hot environments, keeps the operator cooler. But fails in cooler environments as the heat bleed from the vents becomes the strongest signature in the field of view. The heavy insulation approach works great in colder environments as there is no heat escape, so nothing is visible, even in harsh cold. And in these conditions, trapping heat can be of benefit to the operator. So the approach used is heavily dependent upon conditions. You can see a side by side example of standard warm weather gear compared with a ghillie suit with thermal blocking materials added to it in this video shot in cool weather: ruclips.net/video/E7VysRqOMGE/видео.html The idea of creating an air pocket is a good one, and one which I like, if its feasible and functions in the field. I had tried to do something similar using something called 3D mesh, but the layer of mesh was denser than expected and absorbed heat and transferred through more easily than I expected. But youre on to the right idea if you can find a way to pull it off. I had considered milk rings once, chasing a similar concept. The problem I encountered was that as I moved, the fabric would pull against the rings and collapse them. They didn’t have the strength to bounce back and resume their shape once tension was removed, thus the air gap collapsed. But the concept is sound. I’d love to get a better idea of your concept. :)
I like the idea of NVG with thermal. Whether some via COTI or with a setup like the ENVG-B the US has (and Germany and China have identical setups). My hesitation is that it seems like the outline is what is promoted for use and is what soldiers go to. While I think it’s great for standard use, it’s “training” to identify human outlines to react to. All the other noise gets dismissed and overlooked. It would take minimal thermal masking to break up the outline, and suddenly you’re not identified as a target, and any visible hot spots looking through standard thermal alone would be masked by NVG overlay or dismissed by the operator as the outline function of thermal throws neon orange lines on top of all thermal contrasts. In my opinion, I think combining the two, especially with the built-in units and settings commonly in use, would make thermal masking techniques more effective and make soldiers more prone to missing you. Any ti e you’re combining visual information information, you’re increasing the likelihood of missing stuff that one or the other would pick up on its own but gets masked. Example, windows are thermal blocking, windows are thermal reflective. Moving toward a window, using thermal combined with NVG, the extreme temp on the window and reflections on the glass could blot out the NVG ability to see the threat partially hidden inside. If in outline mode this is somewhat mitigated, but as I mentioned, in outline mode general background clutter lines train soldiers to dismiss partial shapes and lines. Making thermal camoflauge more effective. My personal opinion, I would like a thermal coti with NVG set up, but I feel it’s ideally suited for general battlefield conditions. If I was on active defense posture, or hunting for a hidden adversary (escape and evasion situation) or looking for a missing person (search and rescue) I would want to run a straight thermal, no interference from an NVG. And if just out for a walk in the woods, navigating, I would probably want to run just NVG no thermal. Even if I had the combination technology, I personally feel it’s only best for limited situations and would not use it very often. It would probably collect dust more than it got used.
The Chinese were using thermal and night vision optics during some of their border skirmishes with India. It’s a shame the US isn’t investing in similar technology like they are. Is there a way to mount a pulsar thermal optic on a PVS-14 style mount?
There are some thermals that are designed to be helmet mounted, but the selection is sparse. The biggest problem is that the dominant majority of thermals are produced with some level of magnification. It’s like trying to walk while looking through binoculars. Lol. I know I suck trying to do that. The FLIR breach, and the IR Patrol optics (I believe) are helmet mountable 1x thermals. I think they use the bayonet mounting system that some PVS-14 systems use (as opposed to J arm) Now, that said, I fabricated a metal arm that attaches on a J-arm and anchors to the helmet that I can mount my Pulsar on. I bought an optional low magnification lens I can swap out on my pulsar that brings the magnification down to 1.2x which I can use to navigate by at night just like an NVG. I saw people who twinned a thermal with an NVG on a helmet mount. I tried it, and it worked well. My mount was not the most stable when twinned up, so I didn’t use it much. It was kind of weird to get used to. I definitely like one at a time as opposed to both at once. But I can see the usefulness of running them together! :)
@@Whiskey11Gaming I have looked at them. It’s an interesting set up. I can see how it could be useful in most situations. I have some reservations though. I feel like it’s teaching soldiers to rely on a neon outline to tell them where to shoot. Reliance on technology can lead to errors. Will it work 99 times out if a 100? Probably. Very likely. And that number is what matters to the pentagon because that number wins wars. Also, I have seen the same technology as the ENVG-B from manufacturers in both Germany and China for their militaries. Their respective names are escaping me at the moment though. But we are not the only ones with this.
Hey I have a question about your use of the firefighting proximity suit you reference in other comments. So i have one of those too and have been doing some thermal testing on it and as an outer layer it's great due to the reflectivity but it transfers heat to whatever layer it touches pretty quickly so if it isn't the outermost layer it almost seems counterproductive. Pretty similar to a mylar poncho. How are you making the proximity suit + ghillie work?
I agree with you, and I thank you. Yes, mylar, aluminized fabric, radiant barrier, all of it, it works great as block because of its reflectivity preventing the camera from directly imaging the heat inert in the fabric itself. BUT, because the fabric is heated, it will absolutely transfer that heat forward to the next fabric in contact with it. Thats why space blankets shoved under clothes dont work well. Great observation, and I absolutely back you. So, why is it working? LOL! Great question!! So, what is happening with the proximity gear (this is just my best guess), is that the heat being contained inside, is insulated enough from the proximity gear, and the outside environment is cold enough, and the outer layer is cold enough, that its creating a neutral plane in the middle. I'm wearing warm clothing/insulated clothes underneath. These clothes will warm up, but, their surface is not going to be as hot as direct contact with my skin. So the underlayer of clothes is blunting the heat somewhat. Then I wear the proximity gear. The proximity gear has a thermal layer, but I remove that thermal layer lining because I think it forces continuous contact of the warm thermal layer against the aluminized outer layer of the proximity gear, heating it more directly and uniformly. So I remove the thermal lining, thereby creating air gaps and non-continuity of contact across the inner surface of the aluminized layer. Aluminum, as a metal, is a great heat sink, and rapidly distributes (conducts) heat along its surface, thats why metal always feel cold to the touch. therefore, the areas that are not in contact remain cooler, and the areas that are in contact have their heat conducted away to areas that are cooler. It helps distribute the heat across the surface and overall lower the transferred heat. Lastly, I wear a loose layer of summer weight clothing over the top of the proximity gear, thanks to that layers proximity to the cold environment (direct exposure) and having a heat (or cold) reflective layer under it, that layer of clothing remains quite cool. And that layer is the layer that is visible to the thermal imager. lastly, I am usually rocking loose strips of material that are attached in a standoff method so that 80%-ish of the fabric is free floating in space in the freezing environment and thus takes on ambient temperature, and each strip acts like an individual heat sink drawing warmer temperature from the outer fabric layer off and dispersing it to environment. Thats what I think is going on. This set up DOES NOT WORK as effectively in warmer environments. And if its hot, this straight up fails. This is only effective in cold environments, approaching freezing or below freezing temperatures. In warmer environments, I find that stuffing mylar under clothing actually tends to worsen your heat signature. See here: ruclips.net/video/oTex0jB4xNQ/видео.html
@@ThatThermalGuy very interesting and in depth response, thanks! So the metal sandwiched between two nonconductive layers is what works well. That actually explains a lot for me since I've found a lot of success from reflectix shoulder pads sandwiched between a woobie and a thick rain poncho.
@@destroyerofgear Oooo! You said a thing I haven’t tried! I must try it now! Lol. Reflectix shoulder pads. I’ll be looking that up in two minutes… ;) Yeah, the thing with thermal I’ve learned is to just try everything, especially the stuff you don’t think will work, and the stuff you think would work so well you don’t want to bother testing it. Because this stuff is surprising and throws you for a loop when you think you’ve got it down! :)
Can you please do a review on the Concamo ghost-hoodie? It's a very lightweight ghillie suit and it has great NIR camouflage. There's one thing I'm really curious about. ruclips.net/video/z4zdr7TNWKo/видео.htmlfeature=shared This video shows a scope cover made by them seemingly hiding thermal signature. I thought this ghillie might help with reducing thermal signature, not just NIR. In theory, it should work just like a ghillie dedicated for thermal camouflage made by Fibrotex ( Since it's also a very light, packable material while being highly breathable. ) Maybe, are you interested in this? And no, it's not ITAR regulated ( it's made in Germany. )
oh hey, ive done some thermal testing with this. There's a video on my channel showing a bunch of different layering combinations. It doesn't work very well to mitigate thermal. A heavy poncho works better. I really want to find a solution that works with the ghost hoodie because it does visual and IR so well, but so far woobie+poncho is pretty hard to beat.
You didn't compare them to glass penetration, poncho, scrim poncho, scrim umbrella etc. Both are great tools, they each cover areas the other does not. Also the thermal had magnification where the nvg did not.
Hi there! Actually, I’ve shown variations I think of all of those things you mentioned in different videos I have done. :) this video was specifically about dollar for dollar comparing two same priced models from the perspective of a defender, not a comprehensive comparison of their capabilities (the description of the video I think said this too). But a comprehensive comparison isn’t a bad idea. I had not done one because I thought there were other videos out there doing this already. Also, there was a limited difference in magnification involved. If I recorded the NVG with no magnification the scope circle would have been small on the screen. The camera recording the NVG was zoomed in increasing optical zoom to roughly 1.2x, and I had removed the 2.5x lens and swapped on the 1.2x thermal lens to try to compare both roughly equally. I can’t remove the optical magnification from the thermal any further than that, so increasing optical magnification on the camera through the NVG was the best approach to make up difference, but I had to make a rough guess on the increased magnification. Of course, it’s difficult to know that I had done that, and since a PVS-14 native is 1x, I can see why you assumed there was a significant difference.
The point was a dollar for dollar comparison from a defenders perspective. This isn’t a $10k thermal versus a $3k NVG. This is a “both cost the same” comparison, and looking at it from the perspective of a defenders role.
@@leocasi405 Roger that. I catch a lot of flak here from people who think NVGs are the best for all situations no matter what, I just kind of assumed you were another one of those. Lol. Sorry. Truth is I like them both and I think they both absolutely have their places. I think personally that thermal has more applications than NVG, but it’s hard to make an argument other than that when one tech is useful 24th a day and the other is useful at most 6 to 7 hours a day. But I really like analog NVGs for navigation, move to contact, the sort of stuff where you know where your threats are and you’re navigating to them. I think that’s where NVGs really shine. The downside of thermals, even high end ones, is they still see the world through a frame rate, you will have lag especially at high movement speeds, and it needs a shutter reset periodically, the image can get ghost imprints if you’re not staying on top of clearing it, and if you don’t have it auto-NUC then you have to manually shutter it. But having it auto means it can do it at a very inconvenient time. Traditional analog NVGs I think are best for movement and close quarters situations for these reasons.
Great content, glad I found your channel. Thought I'd make it easier lol
TIME STAMP
0:49 The equipment
1:56 Start the games (Close ups!)
3:29 Long Distance spotting
5:57 Tree Line Walk Off (R to L)
6:56 IR Illuminator Demonstration (Various distances)
I pinned your comment to the top. ;) Appreciate it!
Nice! That thermal is impressively crisp.
I’ve had the Helion, the Helion 2 and the Helion 2 Pro (this is the one currently in the video). Each one was successively more impressive when I was already impressed by the previous generation. The original Helion had a NETD sensitivity of less than 65 millikelvins (the amount of difference in temperature necessary for the device to register the difference and colorize it). That was amazing. Most of my older videos were shot with the original Helion. The Helion 2 came out with a sensor that could detect variations in temperature almost half what the original could, clocking in at less than 40 mk NETD. The “less than” simply means the worst a sensor could be was being able to distinguish 40mk differences, but you could get one off the shelf that was even more sensitive (lower number). Basically when they make them, there are variations in sensitivity in the sensors, and they have to meet a minimum performance standard to be sold. My videos shot about two years ago were with the mark 2 model. The Helion 2 Pro has an even better rating, having a minimum NETD sensitivity of less than 25 millikelvins. The crispness and sensitivity of this unit is phenomenal. I’ve had this unit for about a year now. It can detect such minor differences in temperature and colorize them, it is crazy. And that’s just using default settings. You can tune it, adjusting settings to match environment, tweak contrast and brightness, and it can get even better. I usually don’t bother though and just click through one of the pre-fab defaults until I find one that looks good enough for what I’m doing in the moment. I love this thing! It’s incredibly difficult to hide from or defeat, which is why I love trying to defeat it!!! :)
Outstanding video. They both have very significant strengths and weaknesses. IMO, NV is more generalized and practical for basic tasks (walking, driving, shooting); while thermal is exceptional at spotting/shooting, and terrible at general tasks. It sucks to hear, but both are needed.
I definitely agree with you.
Any doubts in anyones minds… try driving a car by thermal mounted to your helmet instead of NVGs. Now THATS an experience!! LOL!
I like the NVGs for navigating, and for rapid movement in close quarters. It’s not thermals fault, but, it’s still a computer with a refresh rate, and even at 30hz, 50hz or 60hz, it’s still possible to move too fast when your target is also moving too fast in close quarters and you get choppy interruption in visual stream. Not good in CQB.
Anyway, this video was specifically addressing the situation from a defenders perspective. And that’s kind of how I see the break down. For active move to contact, CQB, navigating, driving, NVGs tend to win the day. For defensive posture, hunting, tracking, surveillance, search and rescue, and environments with literally no light (caves, underground basements with no windows, inside pipes like water or fuel or sewage, warehouses without windows and the lights off), or during structure fires or when smoke is deployed, thermals win the day. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.
@@ThatThermalGuy completely agree. Driving SLOWLY w thermals is possible-ish, on something like a UTV (w no windshield) but that’s it. You’re exactly right, on the application for defensive use. Have you seen Sicario II, where the guy wants the thermals for driving down a dusty road, IN A TRUCK. Lol.
Yay, you're back! How is your back?
BTW I'm a subscriber, and I didn't get a notification I think there's a checkbox when you upload that makes it so subscribers are alerted.
Oh jeez. I must have missed it! Thanks for the heads up!
Yeah, I’m back. :) Going to start trying to regularly make vids again. Back is healed, thankfully. Bunch of life stuff, but hey, that’s everyone right? :) Good to see you!
Extremely well done video.
Thanks! :)
Great video, thanks for taking the time to compare the two.
My personal experience is NV is like being color blind, only having one eye (unless you have a binocular set up), extremely farsighted, and there's always some noise that makes you think things are moving that aren't.
Haha! Well said!
Thermal is insane! It's so much better than Night Vision and can be used during the day.
Thermal is best for spotting, but it isn't "better" you need IIT night vision as well to ID. A modern example is in Ukraine where there is a lot of friendly fire at night due to thermals. During the Ukraine civil war, thermals did not cause friendly fire because the Ukrainian government was attacking static civilian positions which evolved into a kind of trench warfare so everyone was on the same side were in the same location. The current Ukraine war is heavy on skirmishing so the OPFOR could appear anywhere, even between elements, so locational cues and coordination won't work. Thermal glint tape helps, but it doesn't work well at distance.
This is why modern night vision is all hybrid like the ENVG (which Joe Biden gave to the Taliban before most of our own servicemen got them) and the FPANO.
you can’t move and navigate as well with thermal. due to the digital lag it’s like trying to walk looking through the camera on your phone only. it’s just not real time enough to be practical. it’s so much better for spotting but not as feasible for movement.
you also can’t look through glass with it.
WISH I COULD AFFORD THERMAL VISION.
Thanks for the great channel, you really helped me figure out how the thermal camouflage works.
But there are still some questions left! And I think it would be interesting to test it in practice!
It would be very interesting to know how a person in normal warm clothing (like thermal underwear, sweater, something thick made of natural fabric or anything like that) would look like when it was completely wet and a dry ghillie suit was put on top of it.
I think this is the easiest and cheapest way, but I'm not sure how effective it will be. The water will evaporate and cool the person, and the person will not suffer from overheating, but will it be enough to at least mask him from the thermal imager? I don't think it would be worthwhile to wet the ghillie suit so it's not colder than the environment.
As far as I know, glass is not transparent to thermovision, but I am not sure about plastics. The face seems to be the weak point of many camouflage suits, so maybe you should make the hood even deeper and make some kind of sewn-in goggles? Or just cover the face with a face shield mask?
@@edwardlori4627 I will try to respond more fully to you tonight. Thank you for your comments. I like your idea about the wet clothes and ghillie suit. Will see if I can work out a test for that. :)
As to thermoplastic’s, the thicker plastics I’ve tested block thermal well. Thinner plastics, like garbage bags, painters drop cloth, visqueen, etc., , depending on type and thickness may block, or may be completely transparent.
Currently I recommend a riot faceshield or gas masks to block facial signatures while still being able to see your target. Ski googles work too, but the uncovered face is still visible. You can see googles, balaclavas, and gas masks in my other videos.
The conventional approach in addressing the face in individual suit thermal camoflauge has been lots and lots of hanging layers tied to netting over the face. It’s a facial obscurant, but also difficult to see through.
@@ThatThermalGuy Thanks for the quick and detailed response! I am looking forward to the tests!
And I have one more idea.
It seems that the main purpose of thermal masking is to keep the outer layer from heating up from the user's body heat. But using an insulator is a bit inconvenient in my opinion. What if just alienating the ghillie poncho by making an air layer? I think it is possible to just make plastic rings out of small bottles and connect them as I have drawn. (RUclips seems to block posts with links... That's the third time I've posted this, so the link will be in a separate message.)
The balls made from the rings are large and resilient enough to keep the poncho from touching the body, but soft enough not to embarrass the user too much. It will also distort the shape of the person and not overheat the wearer.
If the elasticity proves insufficient, more plastic rings can always be added. And if the heat still gets through, it is possible to add a layer of fabric in the middle of the balls. However, the rings have to be cut and glued in place for this.
imgur
@@edwardlori4627 I mentioned thicker plastics do well at blocking thermal signature. I showed ski googles (clear lenses) and shooting glasses (clear lenses!) in this video (along with a balaclava):
ruclips.net/video/BAu0kJvJCzk/видео.html
And I show a couple different Gas masks in this video:
ruclips.net/video/-Zu20rxcJo4/видео.html
You can see the reduction in facial signature in all of these cases is pretty significant.
You mentioned thermal masking involves keeping the outer layer from heating up. Yes, most approaches go this route. Keeping the outer layer from heating up is accomplished a couple ways. Using layers of mesh that readily vent heat so its not trapped and doesn’t build up heat to transfer to the outer alyer is one approach. The other approach is using materials that block the movement of heat through materials (heavy insulation). With approach number one, the mesh, there is still heat signature visible to the camera, its just greatly reduced. With approach number two, almost the entirety of the signature is blocked. The downside, is that heat has nowhere to go and that heat trapping affects the operator as ambient temperature rises. The mesh approach works well in hot environments, keeps the operator cooler. But fails in cooler environments as the heat bleed from the vents becomes the strongest signature in the field of view. The heavy insulation approach works great in colder environments as there is no heat escape, so nothing is visible, even in harsh cold. And in these conditions, trapping heat can be of benefit to the operator. So the approach used is heavily dependent upon conditions.
You can see a side by side example of standard warm weather gear compared with a ghillie suit with thermal blocking materials added to it in this video shot in cool weather:
ruclips.net/video/E7VysRqOMGE/видео.html
The idea of creating an air pocket is a good one, and one which I like, if its feasible and functions in the field. I had tried to do something similar using something called 3D mesh, but the layer of mesh was denser than expected and absorbed heat and transferred through more easily than I expected. But youre on to the right idea if you can find a way to pull it off. I had considered milk rings once, chasing a similar concept. The problem I encountered was that as I moved, the fabric would pull against the rings and collapse them. They didn’t have the strength to bounce back and resume their shape once tension was removed, thus the air gap collapsed. But the concept is sound. I’d love to get a better idea of your concept. :)
Very good comparison, what do you think about the new NVG mounted with a coti ? yea price is more like 10K total but it mix the two world
I like the idea of NVG with thermal. Whether some via COTI or with a setup like the ENVG-B the US has (and Germany and China have identical setups). My hesitation is that it seems like the outline is what is promoted for use and is what soldiers go to. While I think it’s great for standard use, it’s “training” to identify human outlines to react to. All the other noise gets dismissed and overlooked. It would take minimal thermal masking to break up the outline, and suddenly you’re not identified as a target, and any visible hot spots looking through standard thermal alone would be masked by NVG overlay or dismissed by the operator as the outline function of thermal throws neon orange lines on top of all thermal contrasts. In my opinion, I think combining the two, especially with the built-in units and settings commonly in use, would make thermal masking techniques more effective and make soldiers more prone to missing you. Any ti e you’re combining visual information information, you’re increasing the likelihood of missing stuff that one or the other would pick up on its own but gets masked.
Example, windows are thermal blocking, windows are thermal reflective. Moving toward a window, using thermal combined with NVG, the extreme temp on the window and reflections on the glass could blot out the NVG ability to see the threat partially hidden inside. If in outline mode this is somewhat mitigated, but as I mentioned, in outline mode general background clutter lines train soldiers to dismiss partial shapes and lines. Making thermal camoflauge more effective.
My personal opinion, I would like a thermal coti with NVG set up, but I feel it’s ideally suited for general battlefield conditions. If I was on active defense posture, or hunting for a hidden adversary (escape and evasion situation) or looking for a missing person (search and rescue) I would want to run a straight thermal, no interference from an NVG. And if just out for a walk in the woods, navigating, I would probably want to run just NVG no thermal. Even if I had the combination technology, I personally feel it’s only best for limited situations and would not use it very often. It would probably collect dust more than it got used.
The Chinese were using thermal and night vision optics during some of their border skirmishes with India.
It’s a shame the US isn’t investing in similar technology like they are.
Is there a way to mount a pulsar thermal optic on a PVS-14 style mount?
There are some thermals that are designed to be helmet mounted, but the selection is sparse. The biggest problem is that the dominant majority of thermals are produced with some level of magnification. It’s like trying to walk while looking through binoculars. Lol. I know I suck trying to do that. The FLIR breach, and the IR Patrol optics (I believe) are helmet mountable 1x thermals. I think they use the bayonet mounting system that some PVS-14 systems use (as opposed to J arm)
Now, that said, I fabricated a metal arm that attaches on a J-arm and anchors to the helmet that I can mount my Pulsar on. I bought an optional low magnification lens I can swap out on my pulsar that brings the magnification down to 1.2x which I can use to navigate by at night just like an NVG. I saw people who twinned a thermal with an NVG on a helmet mount. I tried it, and it worked well. My mount was not the most stable when twinned up, so I didn’t use it much. It was kind of weird to get used to. I definitely like one at a time as opposed to both at once. But I can see the usefulness of running them together! :)
You should look at the ENVGB, the US Military's new NVG... L3Harris just finished their 10,000th ENVGB set...
@@Whiskey11Gaming I have looked at them. It’s an interesting set up. I can see how it could be useful in most situations. I have some reservations though. I feel like it’s teaching soldiers to rely on a neon outline to tell them where to shoot. Reliance on technology can lead to errors. Will it work 99 times out if a 100? Probably. Very likely. And that number is what matters to the pentagon because that number wins wars.
Also, I have seen the same technology as the ENVG-B from manufacturers in both Germany and China for their militaries. Their respective names are escaping me at the moment though. But we are not the only ones with this.
super
Hey I have a question about your use of the firefighting proximity suit you reference in other comments. So i have one of those too and have been doing some thermal testing on it and as an outer layer it's great due to the reflectivity but it transfers heat to whatever layer it touches pretty quickly so if it isn't the outermost layer it almost seems counterproductive. Pretty similar to a mylar poncho. How are you making the proximity suit + ghillie work?
I agree with you, and I thank you. Yes, mylar, aluminized fabric, radiant barrier, all of it, it works great as block because of its reflectivity preventing the camera from directly imaging the heat inert in the fabric itself. BUT, because the fabric is heated, it will absolutely transfer that heat forward to the next fabric in contact with it. Thats why space blankets shoved under clothes dont work well. Great observation, and I absolutely back you.
So, why is it working? LOL! Great question!! So, what is happening with the proximity gear (this is just my best guess), is that the heat being contained inside, is insulated enough from the proximity gear, and the outside environment is cold enough, and the outer layer is cold enough, that its creating a neutral plane in the middle.
I'm wearing warm clothing/insulated clothes underneath. These clothes will warm up, but, their surface is not going to be as hot as direct contact with my skin. So the underlayer of clothes is blunting the heat somewhat. Then I wear the proximity gear. The proximity gear has a thermal layer, but I remove that thermal layer lining because I think it forces continuous contact of the warm thermal layer against the aluminized outer layer of the proximity gear, heating it more directly and uniformly. So I remove the thermal lining, thereby creating air gaps and non-continuity of contact across the inner surface of the aluminized layer. Aluminum, as a metal, is a great heat sink, and rapidly distributes (conducts) heat along its surface, thats why metal always feel cold to the touch. therefore, the areas that are not in contact remain cooler, and the areas that are in contact have their heat conducted away to areas that are cooler. It helps distribute the heat across the surface and overall lower the transferred heat. Lastly, I wear a loose layer of summer weight clothing over the top of the proximity gear, thanks to that layers proximity to the cold environment (direct exposure) and having a heat (or cold) reflective layer under it, that layer of clothing remains quite cool. And that layer is the layer that is visible to the thermal imager. lastly, I am usually rocking loose strips of material that are attached in a standoff method so that 80%-ish of the fabric is free floating in space in the freezing environment and thus takes on ambient temperature, and each strip acts like an individual heat sink drawing warmer temperature from the outer fabric layer off and dispersing it to environment.
Thats what I think is going on. This set up DOES NOT WORK as effectively in warmer environments. And if its hot, this straight up fails. This is only effective in cold environments, approaching freezing or below freezing temperatures. In warmer environments, I find that stuffing mylar under clothing actually tends to worsen your heat signature. See here: ruclips.net/video/oTex0jB4xNQ/видео.html
@@ThatThermalGuy very interesting and in depth response, thanks! So the metal sandwiched between two nonconductive layers is what works well. That actually explains a lot for me since I've found a lot of success from reflectix shoulder pads sandwiched between a woobie and a thick rain poncho.
@@destroyerofgear Oooo! You said a thing I haven’t tried! I must try it now! Lol. Reflectix shoulder pads. I’ll be looking that up in two minutes… ;)
Yeah, the thing with thermal I’ve learned is to just try everything, especially the stuff you don’t think will work, and the stuff you think would work so well you don’t want to bother testing it. Because this stuff is surprising and throws you for a loop when you think you’ve got it down! :)
Can you please do a review on the Concamo ghost-hoodie? It's a very lightweight ghillie suit and it has great NIR camouflage. There's one thing I'm really curious about.
ruclips.net/video/z4zdr7TNWKo/видео.htmlfeature=shared
This video shows a scope cover made by them seemingly hiding thermal signature. I thought this ghillie might help with reducing thermal signature, not just NIR.
In theory, it should work just like a ghillie dedicated for thermal camouflage made by Fibrotex ( Since it's also a very light, packable material while being highly breathable. ) Maybe, are you interested in this? And no, it's not ITAR regulated ( it's made in Germany. )
oh hey, ive done some thermal testing with this. There's a video on my channel showing a bunch of different layering combinations. It doesn't work very well to mitigate thermal. A heavy poncho works better. I really want to find a solution that works with the ghost hoodie because it does visual and IR so well, but so far woobie+poncho is pretty hard to beat.
You didn't compare them to glass penetration, poncho, scrim poncho, scrim umbrella etc. Both are great tools, they each cover areas the other does not. Also the thermal had magnification where the nvg did not.
Hi there! Actually, I’ve shown variations I think of all of those things you mentioned in different videos I have done. :) this video was specifically about dollar for dollar comparing two same priced models from the perspective of a defender, not a comprehensive comparison of their capabilities (the description of the video I think said this too). But a comprehensive comparison isn’t a bad idea. I had not done one because I thought there were other videos out there doing this already.
Also, there was a limited difference in magnification involved. If I recorded the NVG with no magnification the scope circle would have been small on the screen. The camera recording the NVG was zoomed in increasing optical zoom to roughly 1.2x, and I had removed the 2.5x lens and swapped on the 1.2x thermal lens to try to compare both roughly equally. I can’t remove the optical magnification from the thermal any further than that, so increasing optical magnification on the camera through the NVG was the best approach to make up difference, but I had to make a rough guess on the increased magnification. Of course, it’s difficult to know that I had done that, and since a PVS-14 native is 1x, I can see why you assumed there was a significant difference.
@@ThatThermalGuy I will seek your other content. don't stop either, I look forward to seeing more.
yes, we all know thermal is superior than NVGs lol
The point was a dollar for dollar comparison from a defenders perspective. This isn’t a $10k thermal versus a $3k NVG. This is a “both cost the same” comparison, and looking at it from the perspective of a defenders role.
@@ThatThermalGuy yes yes, i wasnt being sarcastic at all.
@@leocasi405 Roger that. I catch a lot of flak here from people who think NVGs are the best for all situations no matter what, I just kind of assumed you were another one of those. Lol. Sorry. Truth is I like them both and I think they both absolutely have their places. I think personally that thermal has more applications than NVG, but it’s hard to make an argument other than that when one tech is useful 24th a day and the other is useful at most 6 to 7 hours a day. But I really like analog NVGs for navigation, move to contact, the sort of stuff where you know where your threats are and you’re navigating to them. I think that’s where NVGs really shine. The downside of thermals, even high end ones, is they still see the world through a frame rate, you will have lag especially at high movement speeds, and it needs a shutter reset periodically, the image can get ghost imprints if you’re not staying on top of clearing it, and if you don’t have it auto-NUC then you have to manually shutter it. But having it auto means it can do it at a very inconvenient time. Traditional analog NVGs I think are best for movement and close quarters situations for these reasons.