The former engineer of the SP steam wrecker I used to work on told me he used to drape a heavy canvas curtain around the cab in winter to keep the boiler heat in and drafts out. One time in the mid-1960s, circa 1965-66, after clearing a wreck near Black Butte in northern California, where the old Siskiyou Line connects with the Natron Cutoff, they were waiting in the hole for backed-up traffic to clear before returning to Klamath Falls, OR . There was heavy snow on the ground. A big lumber train came through and one of the steel bands that held the stacked lumber together had broken on one of the cars and he could hear the tell-tale buzzing as it got closer. He told me those bands could be surprisingly dangerous when they broke and could cut you like a knife if you were in the way. Anyway, it slapped along the side of the work train, cracked a window in the diner and tool car and just as he jumped to the other side of the wrecker's cab, it swung through where he had been standing, snagged the curtain and tore it clean off, carrying it away down the line. Chuck said it was a very chilly ride back to K-Falls. "Colder than hell!" as he put it.
As a new conductor, we had one of those bands hit the front of our locomotive waiting for this train to clear the main. I walked out and saw that it caused a 1/4 inch cut in the handrail. And that was when the engineer told me that’s why you never stand on the nose as a train is passing.
A bit before my time (I'm ONLY 69, damn it!), but I used to live in Yreka, and can remember how much colder (and how much more snow) there was around Black Butte.
Some things never change. During the winter months conductors and switchman are always climbing into the cab dripping sweat while the hogger has the heater cranked.
Take it from 37 year retired Diesel Field Mechanic. Once you sweat & get your clothes any damp at all in wind blowing 32 or below. You are screwed. Forecast for a very cold day. I used to use from my neck to feet, baby powder help keep me dry, then put my clothes on. Then pace myself. Once you sweat you be frozen all day long.
@@henrik1743 I used Hand Warmers in my boots before, A lot of times I would have to take them out over getting too hot. My best advice is buy a real good quality pair of boots yearly waiting on the 1st cold day to wear. & read instructions to take very good care of them.
@@rjohnson1690 True I did to when I could. Back in early 80's I bought a pair of real good fancy insulated coveralls that was a lot of money back in them days for 1 pair, over hundred dollars. This boy wasn't going get cold that winter like last. My 1st day wearing them We jumping a dozer with a DC Lincoln pipeliner welder. Boy was helping me I turn around saw him hooking ground clamp to batteries about time I yelled NO. That DC welder cranked right up on its own. Both batteries blowed up on us. Boom. Really hurt that boy lucky he didn't loose his eye site. Myself got covered head to toe in Battery acid. after completely watering myself down & all, after like 2 1/2 hours it eat every stitch of clothes I had on off even my underwear. I had mechanic grease towels wrapped around myself.. I looked like a blame native Indian. Runied my boots & all. I going home I was scared police pull me over think I some type of a sick crazy manic. I park my pick-up next to my back door to run into my house. True story. Poor boy didn't loose he eye site thank God. I been in some messes. Lost a lot of good friends in all them years too.
It honestly amazes me how much a pair of curtains can help with a crews comfort. Also, great video, gives a lot of insight on what it is like to operate in the winter.
If you can get a chance to look at say a home depot or a Lowes some have a plastic curtain at the overhead door, it's a bunch of 4-6" plastic strips that overlap each other and does keep the cold out and warm in for the most part.
@@jeffharper7579 When you remember the term "Heat rises", its just common sense to ensure the upper parts of the cabin are insulated against extreme cold, especially north of the 49th parallel.
I also remember that some old farm tractors we would cover the engine with a tarp and along the side to the fenders a small windshield on tractors without cab the heat from the engine heat blew back on us to help keep us somewhat warm.
The first steam locomotives had a completely open driver's stand. Later as locomotives went faster, a wall was added with some windows so the crew could look out to the front without getting cold wind in their face. There was also a rudimentary roof against the rain. Early locomotive crews got sick working outside in all weather so despite reservations that they wouldn't notice everything going on outside when working in a closed cab, they got a cab (which was still open to the rear to give access to the tender). Rear walls came last and not in all countries, primarily on locomotives that could go in both directions. In some cases such as German class 50 those rear walls were on the tender, in other cases a flexible connection was made to prevent too much cold air, rain and snow getting into the cab when going backwards. Near where I live the steam locomotive 671 of 1860 is preserved, originally it had an open driving stand and a cab was added later. You can see 1980s films about it here ruclips.net/video/ElzDWCxRMCI/видео.html
My grandfather who passed in the 1950s, was an engineer out of Ironwood Michigan for Chicago & Northwestern RR. I never met him, but always wondered what his life would have been like. My father told me stories here and there, but seeing things like this let’s me think at least he wasn’t too cold in those winters in the UP. Thanks for your video!
I was actually wondering if the firebox was enough to keep the cab warm enough in the winter....this video was perfect for answering any questions I had! Thank you.
When the wind blows through, there's not much you can do. Just blocking the wind goes a long way. You learn that early, farming with no cabbed tractors.
@@lutomson3496 How does this video insult our intelligence? I, too, assumed that it would get quite hot in a steam locomotive's cab, and not require an actual heater. This video is an explanation from an SME about how that is not the case.
I would never argue about that however working on cell phone towers 300 feet in the air in our Chicago cold times also with high humidity and your bibs got wet, let me tell you in this case lol😅
Thanks for the explanation for people who haven’t experienced this. With no curtains, you really do have to almost hug the rear sheet to get a quick warmup. At least when the cab crew kicks you out there’s a coal stove in the caboose to go back to!
7:00 Now I just have this picture in my head of the fireman just wearing a wifebeater and overall having the time of his life while the engineer is freezing to death with 6 layers of clothing XD
Thank you so much for the °C conversions. And thank you for teaching something I didnt know that I didnt know. Im not a man that would be described as one to be "into" trains. However the rivets, brass and soot are doing something for me. Wonderful engine, wonderful stories, wonderful video.
I once worked on a steam engine as pilot. January 2002. It was -25°C/-13F, lots of snow and sun, and the plot was going light engine from Stuttgart to Munich (Germany). 240km (150mls). The engine was a 4-6-0 with a tender (fast passenger trains engine, 01 series of the DR/DB). Last 15km/10mls we had to run tender first because there were no more usable turntables and no short wye (and the network liked to have us out of mainline passenger traffic also). No curtains, 50km/h (32mls/h) restriction due to pushing the tender, but man after this I was frozen to the bone. As a pilot you basically standing in the way of the crew and talk them through the line, major grades and restrictions, talking to dispatchers, that kind of stuff. Nothing to do to keep yourself warm at all.
I work at a deactivated primary metal smelter for ALCOA in Texas, and despite what amount to hundreds of small in-ground swimming pool size pots of molten metal, the potrooms in winter were unpleasantly cold unless you were fairly close to a pot. Of course if you were right next to one it was much too hot!
I like this topic. I can imagine what it is like for the fireman vs. the engineer. Reminds me of my time cooking in the galley for a Chantey sing program that was live onboard ship prior to Covid. We fired up the wood stove to serve hundreds of cold visitors. Not nearly as cold as it is in your area but damp and windy. I'd jump out in my T shirt in rain to cool down for a bit and they would look at me funny like don't you know it's cold and wet. There was no way to get away from the heat.
One of the reasons why Canadian locomotives could be considered better towards the end of steam (besides the superior firebox crownsheets 😉)was that they had "all-weather" insulated cabs often with doors. This was apparently legislated by the authorities into cab design for the crews. The downsides of course being potentially hot cabs in the summer months. Feel almost bad for the CP crew that has to do the Mexico City trip once the merger finally goes through.
Superior crown sheets are all well and good, but they don't stop those lunatics at Canadian Pacific from their unending quest to annoint every lake, stream, river, and other body of water, natural or manmade, adjoining any section of track with a locomotive.
I think I've been to your museum when I was a teenager, with my dad who's a long haul trucker. Well, it's all very possible we were just going slow enough to get a decent look at things. I think I remember seeing a loco and a caboose on a curve track that appeared to be a siding.
I remember when my father was building his dreamhouse, he wanted to pour concrete into the kitchen at the start of the spring. Timing was really bad though as just night before, first there was heavy rain and temperatures subsequently went to from 35F to 10F, so when we came in the morning, all the sand was frozen solid. Together with my cousin we were given the task of breaking it using pick-axes. It was still pretty chilly around 36F and here we were stripped to undershirts breaking frozen sand like a pair of 19th century convicts. I can as such easily imagine why fireman was always wearing basically just underwear, especially if he was feeding something dat hot.
Train Engineer: "Guys, i'm really cold while operating the train in the winter... can we please get some accommodations?" Safety board: "here's a blanket." puts up curtains on choo-choo-train.
In the early 2000s I had a ride on the footplate of a QJ class steam loco hauling a freight train from Sanggendalai to Jingpeng on the JiTong railway in China. The outside temperature was between -15 and -20 celsius. Even wearing a ski-suit and thermals, I have never been so cold or experienced such an incredible temperature gradient across the footplate from the fire hole to the 'jump' seat on the tender! I was allowed to do a bit of firing for 5 minutes or so to keep warm, but lacked the expertise and fitness needed to keep it going longer. I had a huge amount of respect for the two firemen on these locos, doing 20 minutes on and 20 minutes off firing a large 2-10-2 across the hills of Northern China. No curtains on the QJ. I imagine that driving a DF4d across the line now is a good deal more pleasant work...
To give a better prospective of why the fireman is grossly underdressed amd over heated. THINK of cooking a meal in the oven. You open the oven door and you get the blast of heat. Like an oven, when you open up the firebox to stoke it with coal the firemen will be hit pretty directly with that blast of heat. And since the doors compared to the overall size of the fire box combined with cold air getting sucked in by the fires natural means to find oxygen. Like a mini but none explosive backdraft effect. But that heat wave goes the easiest path. Past the fireman and out over the tender.
I never thought that it would actually thought that it's be cold in the cab during winter, very insightful! Also like the winter edition of the outro, the music there is really soothing.
I can imagine there were a few games of "How many Railroaders can we fit in the cab of 491?" played when the temperatures dropped below freezing during its operational years.
I heard stories watching these old doc films about Hungarian enginemen that rheumatics were fairly common among them. (Note: the cabs of the locomotives used couldn't be fully sealed at all. All they had was two windshields and a roof so they wouldn't get wet. Also a side door so they wouldn't fall out as the engine rocked side to side.)
Despite me being most familiar and comfortable with imperial measurements because it's what I grew up with, the metric system makes objectively more sense...
Thanks a lot for that conversion. Despite I recently started to catch some fluency in the approximate conversion of inches and thousandths of them into centimeters and hundredths of millimeters, I still just can't stand thinking how many Celsius degrees is an arbitrarily chosen number of Fahrenheit degrees 🤯
@@Hyce777 I actually have. A funny story about that: I was a major comp sci major and all computer temps are in C. So my land lord rings out bell cause we had a heater problem and first thing that he says is "WHAT TEMPERATURE DOES WATER BOIL AT" Naturally very off guard I said "one hundred!" "WRONG. ITS AROUND 212 F" Little did I know he was asking in F lmao. What kinda number is 212?! It's not even (meaning starting at a 0 in this case) or divides nice or any of that crap!
@@twkolejofil I actually had to learn that for research diving years ago and all I can remember is that it was a rather long-ish formula containing a multiplication by 5/9 or dividing by 5/9, depending on the conversion direction. I think the major problem with the Fahrenheit scale compared to Celsius is that, while celcius was able to depict natural processes in a very simple way by just defining freezing and boiling points of water at normal pressure as the zero and 100 ° points of his scale. Fahrenheit on the other hand seemingly wanted to futureproof his scale by trying to take into account potential future developments and at the same time jumping onto a kind of developing trend of making scales with 3 fixpoints. How well that went with early to mid 18th century tech I think needs no saying. And that is even after the adjustments the Fahrenheit scale went through in the late 19th century...
@@Hyce777 -- As an engineer (retired), I can handle either system, but your are quite naive if you think that the metric system is anything other that just another arbitrary unit of measures. It might have started out with lofty goals, but eventually those met the real world and ended up as just another arbitrary system of units.
Thanks for a great video . This is really cool and brought about a question to me. How does the 491 keep the water in the tender from freezing? I’m sure it has a system .thanks again.
Great video Hyce! I appreciate your detailed explanations about just about all railroad equipment and procedures. How about a mention about the brakeman's cab on some of the tenders.
Cab curtains plain and simple, the great northern, Canadian national, and Canadian pacific are just 3 of many railroads that used those on their locomotives and then there's the British railways that used them extensively on their locomotives and many had tarps that they used year round that extended from the cab roof to the tender to eliminate the risk of the fireman slipping and falling off the foootplate and even off the locomotives with all the rain and sometimes snow over there.
I worked on boilers on destroyers in the Navy, it was hot as hell down in the fireroom, especially since I was stationed at Pearl Harbor. I used to love when we would head north. Then I worked on the boilers at a power plant in Hawaii and that was hot, too.
I'll point out, as someone who has ridden the cab of a steam locomotive, with the curtains off for the summer, the doors, windows and roof vent open, you can get a nice breeze through the cab at only 10mph. It's surprisingly comfortable. Then, you got these new GE & EMDs, which struggle to stay warm when standing, and freeze solid when rolling down the track.
There's a Chicago Burlington and quincy rr 4-8-4 standard gauge engine sitting in my home town of Sheridan, Wyoming. I stopped there one day after I got interested in steam locomotives after watching Kan play RR online and it I'd amazing looking at the enginuity of these past locomotives. For anyone curious, the build date was 07/1940 traction effort is 67,500 boiler pressure is 250, and the fuel source was coal.
As a former owner of 3 GTOs, I approve of the hat. '66 x two & '70 convertible Judge clone. I also am on the crew that maintains and runs a 1922 2-6-2 Baldwin locomotive.
Fantastic share. Makes me recollect my visit to the State RR museum in Sacramento CA and the first look at the massive cab forward engine back in the early 80’s. I bet that had some interesting options for cab comfort for the crew.
Hi Hyce, another great video, being in Australia we never have the problems with extremly cold weather like you experience in USA. I often wondered how the engine crews coped and your video enlightened me. Very Well done. Regards A Fan from Aus.
I've seen photos of kangaroos standing in _snow_ up to their _knees._ You're taking the mick saying Australia doesn't have cold weather problems from time to time.
@@ShadowDragon8685 Good on you! Yes I have seen kangaroos in the snow also, but in real life! The temperatures here in Australia never drops to those experienced in the colder regions of the USA like the Sierra Nevada Mountains . Sure we see snow here (mainly in the high country) but we do not reach levels, for the period of time, that is going to create a train to become snow bound. Nor do we have snow blowers to clear our drive way or paths. Our weather is simply not that severe. As I state above I have I often wondered how the engine crews coped. Regards a Fan from Aus.
It is amazing what a set of curtains will do to help keep you warm. Reminds me of the curtains on high post beds in the 18th century. These run on rods too and completely encase the bed providing some extra warmth to those inside on a cold night. Steam heating on a steam train imagine 😂. Thanks Mark.
When you are north of the 49th parallel, its just common sense to remember that heat does rise, and that if you ensure the upper parts of anything structural are insulated against cold intrusion and heat loss you will have an easier time maintaining a stable temperature even in extreme weather conditions. Also, any insulation below a rating of r20 is a waste within this region as your expending excess energy to maintain the same stable temperature. Edit for reference: I live in an area north of the 49th parallel in a southern area of the province of Alberta Canada that will see temperatures of -30 to -40 degrees Celsius in the months of January and February., with an ambient average temperature around -25 to -29 degrees Celsius.
First of all, greetings from Turkey!!! I was very much in need of information about how steam locomotives turn corners with ease. I learned from you in detail, thank you very much.
@@PhilQc109 What do you mean BS? That's exactly how Fahrenheit created the scale 300 years ago. Some say he used human body temperature for the high end, but either way, same thing. Its a scale that is perfectly calibrated to human perception. Below the midpoint feels cool and gets colder as you approach zero. Above the midpoint feels warm and gets warmer as you approach 100.
@@PhilQc109 The problem with C, at least as it relates to the human environment, is the scale runs roughly from -20 to +40, so it is both lower resolution than F as well as requiring use of negative numbers. Conversely, F is explicitly calibrated to the human environment. I'm an engineer, and the only context I can think of where SI units are unambiguously easier to use is doing thermodynamic calculations. Easy. For day to day things, it's all ideological. MPH vs KPH? Inches vs cm? Pints vs liters? What does it matter? The advantage of traditional units is they evolved organically through human need. EG, as Orwell pointed out, the pint is the optimum quantity for a beer. Let the barman pour you a half liter, and you've gotten short measure, while a full liter is too much.
Great video- something I had always wondered about, Of course, this would only apply to northern areas or high altitude runs, and I'm sure those curtains were one of the first items to rot away on abandoned trains, so many people probably have never seen them. Thanks for the informative video!
Yup, the curtains definitely suffered the elements pretty quick. We actually ended up getting a hold of 491's original curtains and they're actually in good shape though. They were stored in a boxcar for 50 years, which is why.
Just found your videos through reddit, and previously my only foray into trains was googling how steam locomotives work out of curiosity. Your videos are great, you demeanor, manner of speech, just all hit right, definitely got a new subscriber. :)!
Hello from the year 2023! I worked a couple of night trains on the Virginia & Truckee during our Winter Holiday trains and I will support what Hyce says. When we closed up the cab, the 29 was quite nice and comfortable to be in. But, the minute you stepped away from the cab wall, it went from 'ah, warm' to "HOLY !@$@& IT'S COLD!!!!!!!"
That was fascinating. It is good that the railroad provided gear to keep the crew warm in the harsh conditions of winter. Luckily, here in UK, we don't get the extremes of weather like the USA, but I did spend a few hours wearing a heavy jacket trying to keep warm in a draughty, unheated diesel loco on a winter night during track maintenance. I never did like cold weather!
They also have cab curtains, in almost the same setup. 20 has hers mounted now, 346 doesn't at this time. They also have back cab doors, which are more of a nuisance than a help.
5:48 Thank you. That one statement made me laugh. It is nice to see Americans who are NOT obsessed with all theri weird measurements. Just shifting the decimal back and forth with Metric is just so very convenient - unlike having to calculate between inches and miles - to say nothing of all the other insanty around measurements over there.
Off-topic, however, I would like to know how the exhaust and the pressure behind its discharge, impacted crews during travel through a tunnel and if someone was lying down atop a car, how would they be affected by it.
I'm from Canada, so I had a little laugh when you mentioned "systems of temperature and measurement that actually make sense". Thanks for the great video that was really interesting!
I never gave any thought to the heating systems, and I never cared much about them. But I was impressed by the video and more so by the technological advances in these "ancient" steam engines. Well done. And you had me at "we sell stuff!". MY coffee cup's on the way. 😁😁😁
Not quite a problem we have that often over here at Railtown 1897, mainly because we only see snow once every other winter. But hypothetically speaking, if that was an issue for us, 3, 28 and 34 would have to be fitted with curtains to help us keep the warm inside the cab during the winter months. Not really an issue with Shay No. 2, because it has a fully-enclosed cab
Neat tour! Our engines just have the main curtains on the side. As fireman I'm always warm, but I did a trip last month as head brakeman on a day that was dumping snow and that was awful.
I’ve heard lots of railroad over the road say they were glad when the diesels came in. If you were a fireman and a prima donna engineer could make your job unbearable. Steam were roasting in the summer, freezing in winter. Plus water had to be good quality, and lots of it.
Energy moves by 3 means. 1. Convection (wind), 2. Conduction, & 3. Radiation. With everything open Convection is the fastest way energy moves. Catch 22, we want more wind, okay we need more heat to go faster. Now, what's it like in the summer? That'd be a great video too!
Ive spent a lot of my working life outdoors. Winters in Northern Alaska. I cant imagine being cold enough to need that. I still havent worn long johns in the last 30 years. Thats gotta be insane wind chill.
Wow very interesting! Makes me think those Southern Pacific Cab forwards oil fires steam engines, must have been real nice and warm going through the Sierra
A RUclipsr that makes you feel your there because the video isn't edited so bad that it takes away from what's he's trying to show you. Also converting Fahrenheit to Celsius take note other RUclips's it's nice to see in a video am subscribing
Well, looking for more pictures of all weather cabs sent me down a rabbit hole learning about vestibule and fully enclosed cabs. I saw way less engines with curtains, lots of colorado NG, a few santa fes, and one GTW. Im sure there were/are many more. Seams Canadian Pacific skipped the curtains and went straight to enclosed cabs. lol
As a British steam railway fan I hadn’t realised that Hollywood had access to many working steam locos for use in films. Thanks for the info about US heritage railways sorry railroads
Just wanna say this comment section is awesome. I’m in the diesel truck side of things and field working in the cold sucks! I guess we can all relate there. Also awesome video! I learned a lot
@@Hyce777 Thanks for the info and keep up the great work, cause it's really interesting. As a kid living in South Africa in the capital Pretoria around 1973, we had a shunting yard just down the road from our hotel on Church Street. I asked an Engineer if I could ride along. Wow did they make me work for it, came home BLACK, but that is why I love steam locos. Now living here in South Australia, we got the Steam Ranger that runs in the holidays., but no cab rides for me. Dam.
The former engineer of the SP steam wrecker I used to work on told me he used to drape a heavy canvas curtain around the cab in winter to keep the boiler heat in and drafts out. One time in the mid-1960s, circa 1965-66, after clearing a wreck near Black Butte in northern California, where the old Siskiyou Line connects with the Natron Cutoff, they were waiting in the hole for backed-up traffic to clear before returning to Klamath Falls, OR . There was heavy snow on the ground. A big lumber train came through and one of the steel bands that held the stacked lumber together had broken on one of the cars and he could hear the tell-tale buzzing as it got closer. He told me those bands could be surprisingly dangerous when they broke and could cut you like a knife if you were in the way. Anyway, it slapped along the side of the work train, cracked a window in the diner and tool car and just as he jumped to the other side of the wrecker's cab, it swung through where he had been standing, snagged the curtain and tore it clean off, carrying it away down the line. Chuck said it was a very chilly ride back to K-Falls. "Colder than hell!" as he put it.
As a new conductor, we had one of those bands hit the front of our locomotive waiting for this train to clear the main. I walked out and saw that it caused a 1/4 inch cut in the handrail. And that was when the engineer told me that’s why you never stand on the nose as a train is passing.
How can hell be cold?
Steam wrecker?
A bit before my time (I'm ONLY 69, damn it!), but I used to live in Yreka, and can remember how much colder (and how much more snow) there was around Black Butte.
@@aaronfield7899 Figure of speech? Duhhh.
Some things never change. During the winter months conductors and switchman are always climbing into the cab dripping sweat while the hogger has the heater cranked.
Take it from 37 year retired Diesel Field Mechanic. Once you sweat & get your clothes any damp at all in wind blowing 32 or below. You are screwed. Forecast for a very cold day. I used to use from my neck to feet, baby powder help keep me dry, then put my clothes on. Then pace myself. Once you sweat you be frozen all day long.
@@Houndini bro I HATE that I get cold sweats on my feet in the winter.. I am gonna use baby powder on my feet now lmfao
@@Houndini I always wear wool when I have to do any activity in the cold. Wool keeps you warm even when it’s wet, and it breathes really well.
@@henrik1743
I used Hand Warmers in my boots before, A lot of times I would have to take them out over getting too hot. My best advice is buy a real good quality pair of boots yearly waiting on the 1st cold day to wear. & read instructions to take very good care of them.
@@rjohnson1690
True I did to when I could. Back in early 80's I bought a pair of real good fancy insulated coveralls that was a lot of money back in them days for 1 pair, over hundred dollars. This boy wasn't going get cold that winter like last. My 1st day wearing them We jumping a dozer with a DC Lincoln pipeliner welder. Boy was helping me I turn around saw him hooking ground clamp to batteries about time I yelled NO. That DC welder cranked right up on its own. Both batteries blowed up on us. Boom. Really hurt that boy lucky he didn't loose his eye site. Myself got covered head to toe in Battery acid. after completely watering myself down & all, after like 2 1/2 hours it eat every stitch of clothes I had on off even my underwear. I had mechanic grease towels wrapped around myself.. I looked like a blame native Indian. Runied my boots & all. I going home I was scared police pull me over think I some type of a sick crazy manic. I park my pick-up next to my back door to run into my house. True story. Poor boy didn't loose he eye site thank God. I been in some messes. Lost a lot of good friends in all them years too.
It honestly amazes me how much a pair of curtains can help with a crews comfort. Also, great video, gives a lot of insight on what it is like to operate in the winter.
If you can get a chance to look at say a home depot or a Lowes some have a plastic curtain at the overhead door, it's a bunch of 4-6" plastic strips that overlap each other and does keep the cold out and warm in for the most part.
@@jeffharper7579 When you remember the term "Heat rises", its just common sense to ensure the upper parts of the cabin are insulated against extreme cold, especially north of the 49th parallel.
I also remember that some old farm tractors we would cover the engine with a tarp and along the side to the fenders a small windshield on tractors without cab the heat from the engine heat blew back on us to help keep us somewhat warm.
@@jeffharper7579 Yup, heat housers.
Most people ( young farmers) probably wouldn't know them by that name but thanks you know exactly what I'm talking about.👍👍
The first steam locomotives had a completely open driver's stand. Later as locomotives went faster, a wall was added with some windows so the crew could look out to the front without getting cold wind in their face. There was also a rudimentary roof against the rain. Early locomotive crews got sick working outside in all weather so despite reservations that they wouldn't notice everything going on outside when working in a closed cab, they got a cab (which was still open to the rear to give access to the tender). Rear walls came last and not in all countries, primarily on locomotives that could go in both directions. In some cases such as German class 50 those rear walls were on the tender, in other cases a flexible connection was made to prevent too much cold air, rain and snow getting into the cab when going backwards.
Near where I live the steam locomotive 671 of 1860 is preserved, originally it had an open driving stand and a cab was added later. You can see 1980s films about it here
ruclips.net/video/ElzDWCxRMCI/видео.html
My grandfather who passed in the 1950s, was an engineer out of Ironwood Michigan for Chicago & Northwestern RR. I never met him, but always wondered what his life would have been like. My father told me stories here and there, but seeing things like this let’s me think at least he wasn’t too cold in those winters in the UP. Thanks for your video!
I lived in Ironwood back in the 90s when I was a kid, those winters are crazy!
Have you ever seen on of the snow plows they use for the railroad up there?
@@MitchJohnson0110 I have not, but they must have had good equipment to keep the tracks clear.
@@patrickcronin6829 Like 20 foot tall wedge plows. pretty nuts
I was actually wondering if the firebox was enough to keep the cab warm enough in the winter....this video was perfect for answering any questions I had! Thank you.
When the wind blows through, there's not much you can do.
Just blocking the wind goes a long way.
You learn that early, farming with no cabbed tractors.
Yes our farmall M had winter canvass for the engine and you..this video insults the intelligence of us..
@@lutomson3496 How does this video insult our intelligence? I, too, assumed that it would get quite hot in a steam locomotive's cab, and not require an actual heater. This video is an explanation from an SME about how that is not the case.
The cold is never too terrible, but being in the cab of a steam engine, in the Texas sun with no hint a breeze and high humidity, lemme tell yah🥵
In that case you're damn if you do it in damn if you don't I know exactly what you mean
That definitely does suck... been there, done that, got the heat stroke.
Done both (windy 5 degree day, humid 103 F day with being around 155 in the cab on a handbomber). Not sure which I would choose...
You really painted a picture there.. for a brief moment I could almost feel that heat.
I would never argue about that however working on cell phone towers 300 feet in the air in our Chicago cold times also with high humidity and your bibs got wet, let me tell you in this case lol😅
Thanks for the explanation for people who haven’t experienced this. With no curtains, you really do have to almost hug the rear sheet to get a quick warmup. At least when the cab crew kicks you out there’s a coal stove in the caboose to go back to!
7:00 Now I just have this picture in my head of the fireman just wearing a wifebeater and overall having the time of his life while the engineer is freezing to death with 6 layers of clothing XD
Thank you so much for the °C conversions. And thank you for teaching something I didnt know that I didnt know. Im not a man that would be described as one to be "into" trains. However the rivets, brass and soot are doing something for me. Wonderful engine, wonderful stories, wonderful video.
I once worked on a steam engine as pilot. January 2002. It was -25°C/-13F, lots of snow and sun, and the plot was going light engine from Stuttgart to Munich (Germany). 240km (150mls). The engine was a 4-6-0 with a tender (fast passenger trains engine, 01 series of the DR/DB). Last 15km/10mls we had to run tender first because there were no more usable turntables and no short wye (and the network liked to have us out of mainline passenger traffic also). No curtains, 50km/h (32mls/h) restriction due to pushing the tender, but man after this I was frozen to the bone. As a pilot you basically standing in the way of the crew and talk them through the line, major grades and restrictions, talking to dispatchers, that kind of stuff. Nothing to do to keep yourself warm at all.
I work at a deactivated primary metal smelter for ALCOA in Texas, and despite what amount to hundreds of small in-ground swimming pool size pots of molten metal, the potrooms in winter were unpleasantly cold unless you were fairly close to a pot. Of course if you were right next to one it was much too hot!
I like this topic. I can imagine what it is like for the fireman vs. the engineer. Reminds me of my time cooking in the galley for a Chantey sing program that was live onboard ship prior to Covid. We fired up the wood stove to serve hundreds of cold visitors. Not nearly as cold as it is in your area but damp and windy. I'd jump out in my T shirt in rain to cool down for a bit and they would look at me funny like don't you know it's cold and wet. There was no way to get away from the heat.
One of the reasons why Canadian locomotives could be considered better towards the end of steam (besides the superior firebox crownsheets 😉)was that they had "all-weather" insulated cabs often with doors. This was apparently legislated by the authorities into cab design for the crews. The downsides of course being potentially hot cabs in the summer months. Feel almost bad for the CP crew that has to do the Mexico City trip once the merger finally goes through.
Superior crown sheets are all well and good, but they don't stop those lunatics at Canadian Pacific from their unending quest to annoint every lake, stream, river, and other body of water, natural or manmade, adjoining any section of track with a locomotive.
@@ShadowDragon8685 you mean to tell me CP wasn't actually a pioneer in amphibious locomotive operations? Darn it!!
The SP 4449 has an “all weather cab”, which would have been great in the Sierras and Cascades, but would have sucked in the Central Valley summers.
I think I've been to your museum when I was a teenager, with my dad who's a long haul trucker. Well, it's all very possible we were just going slow enough to get a decent look at things.
I think I remember seeing a loco and a caboose on a curve track that appeared to be a siding.
Down on the farm we used a canvas surround on the tractors to hold heat around the operator-----we called them heat houses.
I remember when my father was building his dreamhouse, he wanted to pour concrete into the kitchen at the start of the spring. Timing was really bad though as just night before, first there was heavy rain and temperatures subsequently went to from 35F to 10F, so when we came in the morning, all the sand was frozen solid.
Together with my cousin we were given the task of breaking it using pick-axes. It was still pretty chilly around 36F and here we were stripped to undershirts breaking frozen sand like a pair of 19th century convicts. I can as such easily imagine why fireman was always wearing basically just underwear, especially if he was feeding something dat hot.
Train Engineer: "Guys, i'm really cold while operating the train in the winter... can we please get some accommodations?"
Safety board: "here's a blanket." puts up curtains on choo-choo-train.
In the early 2000s I had a ride on the footplate of a QJ class steam loco hauling a freight train from Sanggendalai to Jingpeng on the JiTong railway in China. The outside temperature was between -15 and -20 celsius. Even wearing a ski-suit and thermals, I have never been so cold or experienced such an incredible temperature gradient across the footplate from the fire hole to the 'jump' seat on the tender! I was allowed to do a bit of firing for 5 minutes or so to keep warm, but lacked the expertise and fitness needed to keep it going longer. I had a huge amount of respect for the two firemen on these locos, doing 20 minutes on and 20 minutes off firing a large 2-10-2 across the hills of Northern China. No curtains on the QJ. I imagine that driving a DF4d across the line now is a good deal more pleasant work...
crazy to think of a steamer in main line revenue service even in the 21st century.
To give a better prospective of why the fireman is grossly underdressed amd over heated. THINK of cooking a meal in the oven. You open the oven door and you get the blast of heat. Like an oven, when you open up the firebox to stoke it with coal the firemen will be hit pretty directly with that blast of heat. And since the doors compared to the overall size of the fire box combined with cold air getting sucked in by the fires natural means to find oxygen. Like a mini but none explosive backdraft effect. But that heat wave goes the easiest path. Past the fireman and out over the tender.
Never thought of that. Makes sense, though. Wide open doors, windows, etc. can be cold even a few feet away from some heavy localized heat. Great vid!
Thx for puting in the temps in Celcius i apreciate it alot!
I never thought that it would actually thought that it's be cold in the cab during winter, very insightful!
Also like the winter edition of the outro, the music there is really soothing.
I can imagine there were a few games of "How many Railroaders can we fit in the cab of 491?" played when the temperatures dropped below freezing during its operational years.
Yup.
I heard stories watching these old doc films about Hungarian enginemen that rheumatics were fairly common among them.
(Note: the cabs of the locomotives used couldn't be fully sealed at all. All they had was two windshields and a roof so they wouldn't get wet. Also a side door so they wouldn't fall out as the engine rocked side to side.)
Hyce, this just made my day. Not only the interesting (because niche) subject, bit your conversion to °C and your attitude towards it😁
Despite me being most familiar and comfortable with imperial measurements because it's what I grew up with, the metric system makes objectively more sense...
Thanks a lot for that conversion. Despite I recently started to catch some fluency in the approximate conversion of inches and thousandths of them into centimeters and hundredths of millimeters, I still just can't stand thinking how many Celsius degrees is an arbitrarily chosen number of Fahrenheit degrees 🤯
@@Hyce777 I actually have. A funny story about that:
I was a major comp sci major and all computer temps are in C. So my land lord rings out bell cause we had a heater problem and first thing that he says is "WHAT TEMPERATURE DOES WATER BOIL AT"
Naturally very off guard I said "one hundred!"
"WRONG. ITS AROUND 212 F"
Little did I know he was asking in F lmao. What kinda number is 212?! It's not even (meaning starting at a 0 in this case) or divides nice or any of that crap!
@@twkolejofil I actually had to learn that for research diving years ago and all I can remember is that it was a rather long-ish formula containing a multiplication by 5/9 or dividing by 5/9, depending on the conversion direction.
I think the major problem with the Fahrenheit scale compared to Celsius is that, while celcius was able to depict natural processes in a very simple way by just defining freezing and boiling points of water at normal pressure as the zero and 100 ° points of his scale.
Fahrenheit on the other hand seemingly wanted to futureproof his scale by trying to take into account potential future developments and at the same time jumping onto a kind of developing trend of making scales with 3 fixpoints.
How well that went with early to mid 18th century tech I think needs no saying. And that is even after the adjustments the Fahrenheit scale went through in the late 19th century...
@@Hyce777 -- As an engineer (retired), I can handle either system, but your are quite naive if you think that the metric system is anything other that just another arbitrary unit of measures. It might have started out with lofty goals, but eventually those met the real world and ended up as just another arbitrary system of units.
Thanks for a great video . This is really cool and brought about a question to me. How does the 491 keep the water in the tender from freezing? I’m sure it has a system .thanks again.
You can have the injector "blow back" into the tank, sending steam into the water tank to keep it from freezing.
My experience hunting out west is that when you are moving and working hard. You can sweat through just a sweatshirt when it's 9 degrees out.
ive never watched a video about a steam train in my life but i watched the whole video, keep it up dude you deserve more
Thank you for explaining this.
A great little story on how to keep yourselves warm in the winter cold.
Keep them stories coming Hyce
Was really wondering about this the other day. Thanks for explaining it!
Great video Hyce! I appreciate your detailed explanations about just about all railroad equipment and procedures. How about a mention about the brakeman's cab on some of the tenders.
The doghouse has been talked about in a video a few months back on the channel.
I really like reading everything i can find about railroading on the steamers, im another HICE same name 1 letter different
adding celsius conversations to your video was a nice touch, lets anyone in the world understand what your talking about.
i love the way you did the metric conversion with little inserts, it really helps keeping the sentences easy to follow
Watching this while waiting for Montezuma to come to pressure in RO.
Cab curtains plain and simple, the great northern, Canadian national, and Canadian pacific are just 3 of many railroads that used those on their locomotives and then there's the British railways that used them extensively on their locomotives and many had tarps that they used year round that extended from the cab roof to the tender to eliminate the risk of the fireman slipping and falling off the foootplate and even off the locomotives with all the rain and sometimes snow over there.
I never stop learning stuff from this channel!
I worked on boilers on destroyers in the Navy, it was hot as hell down in the fireroom, especially since I was stationed at Pearl Harbor. I used to love when we would head north. Then I worked on the boilers at a power plant in Hawaii and that was hot, too.
I'll point out, as someone who has ridden the cab of a steam locomotive, with the curtains off for the summer, the doors, windows and roof vent open, you can get a nice breeze through the cab at only 10mph. It's surprisingly comfortable.
Then, you got these new GE & EMDs, which struggle to stay warm when standing, and freeze solid when rolling down the track.
I don’t know what new ge or emd’s you’ve been in but the ones I’ve been in have no problem staying hot in sub zero temps
Sounds like the state of new jersey is basically the climate of a steam locomotive cab
There's a Chicago Burlington and quincy rr 4-8-4 standard gauge engine sitting in my home town of Sheridan, Wyoming. I stopped there one day after I got interested in steam locomotives after watching Kan play RR online and it I'd amazing looking at the enginuity of these past locomotives. For anyone curious, the build date was 07/1940 traction effort is 67,500 boiler pressure is 250, and the fuel source was coal.
It's the 5633, sister of the 5629 we have at the museum.
@@Hyce777 I had no idea! That's so cool!
As a former owner of 3 GTOs, I approve of the hat. '66 x two & '70 convertible Judge clone. I also am on the crew that maintains and runs a 1922 2-6-2 Baldwin locomotive.
That's awesome Todd! I have a '68 myself. Which Baldwin?
Fascinating! I had no idea it was even possible to get cold enough to shiver while riding next to such a bonfire!
Side note: Woo! Snowy 20!
Imagine crossing the prairies in the late 1800s middle of winter -20 degree weather hunkering down in the cab, not fun
Fantastic share. Makes me recollect my visit to the State RR museum in Sacramento CA and the first look at the massive cab forward engine back in the early 80’s. I bet that had some interesting options for cab comfort for the crew.
Hi Hyce, another great video, being in Australia we never have the problems with extremly cold weather like you experience in USA. I often wondered how the engine crews coped and your video enlightened me. Very Well done. Regards A Fan from Aus.
I've seen photos of kangaroos standing in _snow_ up to their _knees._ You're taking the mick saying Australia doesn't have cold weather problems from time to time.
@@ShadowDragon8685 Good on you! Yes I have seen kangaroos in the snow also, but in real life! The temperatures here in Australia never drops to those experienced in the colder regions of the USA like the Sierra Nevada Mountains . Sure we see snow here (mainly in the high country) but we do not reach levels, for the period of time, that is going to create a train to become snow bound. Nor do we have snow blowers to clear our drive way or paths. Our weather is simply not that severe. As I state above I have I often wondered how the engine crews coped. Regards a Fan from Aus.
It is amazing what a set of curtains will do to help keep you warm. Reminds me of the curtains on high post beds in the 18th century. These run on rods too and completely encase the bed providing some extra warmth to those inside on a cold night. Steam heating on a steam train imagine 😂. Thanks Mark.
When you are north of the 49th parallel, its just common sense to remember that heat does rise, and that if you ensure the upper parts of anything structural are insulated against cold intrusion and heat loss you will have an easier time maintaining a stable temperature even in extreme weather conditions. Also, any insulation below a rating of r20 is a waste within this region as your expending excess energy to maintain the same stable temperature. Edit for reference: I live in an area north of the 49th parallel in a southern area of the province of Alberta Canada that will see temperatures of -30 to -40 degrees Celsius in the months of January and February., with an ambient average temperature around -25 to -29 degrees Celsius.
8:11 can completely confirm, I've been unable to feel my fingers many nights so far, those are times I wish my Goose was cooked lol
And now I know what the next mod to my model K-27 will be 😂 awesome details and explanation as always!
First of all, greetings from Turkey!!! I was very much in need of information about how steam locomotives turn corners with ease. I learned from you in detail, thank you very much.
Greetings! Glad you enjoyed.
As a British person who’s always liked trains watching your videos, when you put the Celsius temperature conversions on screen man I APPRECIATE YOU
Fahrenheit is simple. Zero is the coldest day you've ever known. 100 is the hottest day you've ever known.
@@omahaderbycovers huh I call BS on what you said!
@@PhilQc109 What do you mean BS? That's exactly how Fahrenheit created the scale 300 years ago. Some say he used human body temperature for the high end, but either way, same thing.
Its a scale that is perfectly calibrated to human perception. Below the midpoint feels cool and gets colder as you approach zero. Above the midpoint feels warm and gets warmer as you approach 100.
@@omahaderbycovers I bet he never went in -30 zone huh. Can't beat Metric system as he said in the vid!!!
@@PhilQc109 The problem with C, at least as it relates to the human environment, is the scale runs roughly from -20 to +40, so it is both lower resolution than F as well as requiring use of negative numbers.
Conversely, F is explicitly calibrated to the human environment.
I'm an engineer, and the only context I can think of where SI units are unambiguously easier to use is doing thermodynamic calculations. Easy.
For day to day things, it's all ideological. MPH vs KPH? Inches vs cm? Pints vs liters? What does it matter?
The advantage of traditional units is they evolved organically through human need. EG, as Orwell pointed out, the pint is the optimum quantity for a beer. Let the barman pour you a half liter, and you've gotten short measure, while a full liter is too much.
Fahrenheit = F = Freedon units. Love your videos man!
5:44 those nerds. Why use something that makes since when u can measure distance with your foot :)
Experiential knowledge delivered lovely in an educational manner. Thank you very much. You're the kind of person that would be on Mr. Rogers.
I love your comment about the system of measurements that actually makes sense 🙂
5:40 Bless this man!
Great video- something I had always wondered about, Of course, this would only apply to northern areas or high altitude runs, and I'm sure those curtains were one of the first items to rot away on abandoned trains, so many people probably have never seen them. Thanks for the informative video!
Yup, the curtains definitely suffered the elements pretty quick. We actually ended up getting a hold of 491's original curtains and they're actually in good shape though. They were stored in a boxcar for 50 years, which is why.
My Grandad made a cover for his fishing boat from one of the canvases from a B&O Steam Engine.
Sounds like it was built for states that were closer to Canada, where it can get to -10 to -20 on average in the winter.
@Ninjia73 -20f in winter is not as cold as one might think, when it dips down in the -40s or colder in winter.
I imagine everything was warranted considering engineers would be taking these engines through the most remote areas of the rockey mountains.
Aah! Rio Grande Southern. We used to live at mile marker 91. Twin Spruce Ranch. Thanks for sharing.
Just found your videos through reddit, and previously my only foray into trains was googling how steam locomotives work out of curiosity. Your videos are great, you demeanor, manner of speech, just all hit right, definitely got a new subscriber. :)!
Cheers mate! Where on Reddit have I been posted? I didn't know someone had been sharing them.
@@Hyce777Just today about the do not hump video, /r/videos, 7 upvotes, but hey it's getting there :)
Hello from the year 2023! I worked a couple of night trains on the Virginia & Truckee during our Winter Holiday trains and I will support what Hyce says. When we closed up the cab, the 29 was quite nice and comfortable to be in. But, the minute you stepped away from the cab wall, it went from 'ah, warm' to "HOLY !@$@& IT'S COLD!!!!!!!"
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.
That was fascinating. It is good that the railroad provided gear to keep the crew warm in the harsh conditions of winter.
Luckily, here in UK, we don't get the extremes of weather like the USA, but I did spend a few hours wearing a heavy jacket trying to keep warm in a draughty, unheated diesel loco on a winter night during track maintenance. I never did like cold weather!
5:44 i love you for this statement alone :))
It was very kind of you to cater to us metric users, we don't all know the conversion rates of Freedom units.
Very interesting. That's fairly cozy for a 1920's locomotive like the 491 - how about dealing with bad or cold weather in the RGS 20 or DRG&W 346?
They also have cab curtains, in almost the same setup. 20 has hers mounted now, 346 doesn't at this time. They also have back cab doors, which are more of a nuisance than a help.
Hyce! Well made! Appreciate your coffee break!
I learned something new about steam trains to today lol wow
5:48 Thank you. That one statement made me laugh. It is nice to see Americans who are NOT obsessed with all theri weird measurements. Just shifting the decimal back and forth with Metric is just so very convenient - unlike having to calculate between inches and miles - to say nothing of all the other insanty around measurements over there.
Off-topic, however, I would like to know how the exhaust and the pressure behind its discharge, impacted crews during travel through a tunnel and if someone was lying down atop a car, how would they be affected by it.
Lots of reports of asphyxiation, so not good...
Well, that explanation did it for me; I subscribed to your channel. I learned a lot in the 8:41 minutes here; thank you.
Cheers Cameron!
I'm from Canada, so I had a little laugh when you mentioned "systems of temperature and measurement that actually make sense". Thanks for the great video that was really interesting!
Love the videos Hyce!!
shows why the adage"fry in the summer/freeze in the winter" was SO appropriate in the days of steam...
I never gave any thought to the heating systems, and I never cared much about them. But I was impressed by the video and more so by the technological advances in these "ancient" steam engines. Well done. And you had me at "we sell stuff!". MY coffee cup's on the way. 😁😁😁
Cheers mate! Glad you enjoyed, and thank you so much for helping to support the channel :)
Not quite a problem we have that often over here at Railtown 1897, mainly because we only see snow once every other winter. But hypothetically speaking, if that was an issue for us, 3, 28 and 34 would have to be fitted with curtains to help us keep the warm inside the cab during the winter months. Not really an issue with Shay No. 2, because it has a fully-enclosed cab
That was awesome!! I never knew!
Praise the algorithm! This channel is up there with wheels through time for me! Fantastic work you guys do!
Cheers!
Neat tour! Our engines just have the main curtains on the side. As fireman I'm always warm, but I did a trip last month as head brakeman on a day that was dumping snow and that was awful.
Railroads online needs a "sheep simulator" mini game for causing mass havoc on the C&S/D&GR.
I’ve heard lots of railroad over the road say they were glad when the diesels came in. If you were a fireman and a prima donna engineer could make your job unbearable. Steam were roasting in the summer, freezing in winter. Plus water had to be good quality, and lots of it.
Energy moves by 3 means. 1. Convection (wind), 2. Conduction, & 3. Radiation. With everything open Convection is the fastest way energy moves. Catch 22, we want more wind, okay we need more heat to go faster. Now, what's it like in the summer? That'd be a great video too!
Ive spent a lot of my working life outdoors. Winters in Northern Alaska. I cant imagine being cold enough to need that. I still havent worn long johns in the last 30 years. Thats gotta be insane wind chill.
This was a very interesting video! I learned a lot! thanks for sharing this with us!
A great incite into a very important aspect of loco operation. Thanks a lot. Colin UK 🇬🇧
Wow very interesting! Makes me think those Southern Pacific Cab forwards oil fires steam engines, must have been real nice and warm going through the Sierra
Well done video- thanks for taking us into the shop with you. I'd rather watch stuff like this than network television every time.
I bet the loco is like , " its not my fault Hyde , I was built like this "
A RUclipsr that makes you feel your there because the video isn't edited so bad that it takes away from what's he's trying to show you. Also converting Fahrenheit to Celsius take note other RUclips's it's nice to see in a video am subscribing
Well, looking for more pictures of all weather cabs sent me down a rabbit hole learning about vestibule and fully enclosed cabs. I saw way less engines with curtains, lots of colorado NG, a few santa fes, and one GTW. Im sure there were/are many more. Seams Canadian Pacific skipped the curtains and went straight to enclosed cabs. lol
As a British steam railway fan I hadn’t realised that Hollywood had access to many working steam locos for use in films. Thanks for the info about US heritage railways sorry railroads
Just wanna say this comment section is awesome. I’m in the diesel truck side of things and field working in the cold sucks! I guess we can all relate there. Also awesome video! I learned a lot
Loved the shoutout to the metric system!
This was a question I had for a while now
Great explanation.
Came from kan’s video of the coop train world. Your videos are way more entertaining than I thought. Keep up the good work 👍
Steam Heat exhaust makes for a great show outside the train.
Thank you so much. Love the story about the fireman just being in a t-shirt
Another great video, and if you could answer this. If you have 2 locomotives in tandem, how do you sync both of them? TIA.
You feel what the other engine is doing in your seat and adjust as best you can! Haha.
@@Hyce777 Thanks for the info and keep up the great work, cause it's really interesting. As a kid living in South Africa in the capital Pretoria around 1973, we had a shunting yard just down the road from our hotel on Church Street. I asked an Engineer if I could ride along. Wow did they make me work for it, came home BLACK, but that is why I love steam locos. Now living here in South Australia, we got the Steam Ranger that runs in the holidays., but no cab rides for me. Dam.