Mabe make a circle of copper tubing that follows the full circumference of the magnet wheel, that way all the magnets are continuously heating up the pipe. Also, you'll need lots of insulation and an insulated hot water reservoir. Also, try adding "check valves" to make sure the hot water is being circulated and is constantly being heated. The hot water might not actually be flowing.
I was thinking this, but then would it not make more sense to make the pipe the same shape as a serpentine coil. As is the pipe is exposed to the same state of magnetic flux at the same time which is likely negating the effect. If the entire serpentine pjpe is only above north or south at the same time it should get a better effect from the alternating magnetic field. You could also have another coil of pipe underneath for double the distance. Requires some complicated pipe bending but should be doable with 6mm ID soft copper. Scrap that copper isnt magnetic. 2 circular pipes that run above and below with a small circle of stainless steel the same size and the magnet attached to the copper pipe. This would need to be every other magnet so it’s not exposed to north and south at the same time. The steel gets hot and transferee the heat to the copper pipe. Because the copper isn’t magnetic it won’t be effected by being over both magnets at once. You may also need a small mechanical pump as water is effected by strong magnetic fields even tho is technically not magnetic.
Maybe solder or weld a copper strip on the bottom of the pipe to catch a wider area of the 'flux' field. I think the tube has only a very small surface close to the magnets.
I was about to suggest this as well, perhaps with flat bottomed square pipe or pip with heat conducting bottom plate / fins all covered in insulating foam on top. Also, I wonder about a double but thinner tube so it can coil around more than once. Finally, If you can increase the stability of the spin so the pipe can get as close to the magnets as possible without hitting (a mm or so) you'll make the absolute most of the magnet strength.
Really cool: I’m an hvac designer and do heat loss related calculations as part of my work. The energy to heat the 5L of water 10 degrees is: Q=mc(dT) = (4184J/kg C)(5kg)(10C) = 209,200J. Since it was heated over 10 min that’s 209,200J/600s = 348.6 Watts of power. It’s hard to estimate the losses since I don’t know the ambient air temperature, but at 23C water, assuming about 13C ambient: I’m estimating around 250 Watts or so, with some quick lookups, with around 80% of that loss being in the piping. So that’s at least the same ball park as the above calculation: if you insulated everything you might be able to heat up a bit of water for a sink or a small outdoor shower.. (or, you can pipe it in to a regular water heater and reduce your demand, and probably eliminate your standby demand to keep the water hot when not in use) nice work!
Yeah, but the energy required to rotate the entire wheel plus the frictions and tremblings and pipings will get you a net loss. So apart from a fun experiment, and maybe human-powered (via bike, or manual gearing), it’s mostly useless. Without talking about the initial cost of the energy need for magnetizing the magnets.
Yes. I envision a stationary bike sitting next to a hot water tank. Every morning someone gets on and pedals like the devil. They get their exercise AND they bring a tank of water up to temp for the day (or, at least, offset the fuel used to heat it.) You never know, we might all have to do this someday when the power grid goes down... 🤔
Maybe pay attention to the watts, current and voltage of the drill there could be a voltage drop under load in the drill input end. Then circle the entire wheel to take advantage of the full circumference. Keep the loads balanced. Before a coil burns out it generally starts to draw more current.
Two suggestions for improvement. First you have an open magnetic circuit; the underneath is completed in air. A Halback array will make a massive difference to the flux induced. Secondly, your copper pipe is too thin. A thicker block of copper will generate more internal current and hence heat. Try to minimise all air gaps. For your present arrangement, magnetic steel lamination connecting north south under the disk will help. Good luck Dr Paul Difference
I agree with everything except the Halbach array, if he did that it would space out the flipped poles so while it would definitely get stronger on the top side it might reduce the flux so it might be tricky to get it to work better (there's probably a clever way around that though), it might also be difficult if he's using the same kind of magnets on the rotated ones to get them to happily fit snuggly into the disk. A laminated steel "magnetic yolk" is a great idea but it would add a fair amount of mass to the rim and you'd have to be careful to avoid laminated steel throwing stars... you could probably use a microwave oven transformer cut into pieces. It's also a good way to remove the temptation of using the microwave oven transformer for something more electrically dangerous, lol. (Those things are terrifying)
Yes, a good magnetic steel under the magnets will increase the flux on top side by almost a factor of 2*. It does not need to be laminated as the flux on the bottom side will be almost constant. It must be thick enough that it does not saturate too much though. As the heating effect is close to quadratic of the magnetic flux, increasing it by a factor of 2 will give about 4 times the heating assuming is all else is the same. *Assuming the magnets are mounted directly on the so called back-iron.
Well Sir, there are a few things that occurred to me 1. The balance is critical for stability. There are procedures online for manual trial weight balancing or if you have a friend with vibration analysis gear. 2. You essentially have a gigantic disk and for heating, you can double the effectiveness by mounting 2 heaters like a disk brake caliper with a screw advance to control the gap more precisely. 3. For insulation, your idea for a woolie-pulley was pretty close to what I had in mind.😅 look for old wool blankets or moving padding and wrap the metal in aluminum foil then apply the fabric and then wrap the whole works. Wire will work or even duct tape. I love watching your experiments as I absolutely loved that aspect of being in university for Mechanic Engineering Technology and now that I'm retired, I appreciate content like yours and CEE Australia for trade-related content because I'm also an HD Equipment Mechanic 😅
@jfk720 I thought about that 🤔 but I was concerned about melting it in the heater because it could get quite toasty 🥵. The aluminum foil and non-synthetic fibers may be more resistant 😉 For convenience, hot water pipe insulation foam wraps could work if away from the heater 🤔
@ryelor123 maybe 🤔 more metal is more metal to heat and the goal is to heat the water. Also, a coiled copper pipe may be an option and easier to replace. ¼" -⅜" line with compression fittings🙂
This looks so close to your original concept, I love it! Everyone is telling you to overcomplicate it but it feels 90% there - it looks like quite a big air gap between the copper pipe and magnets which you want to minimise, and it clearly wants insulation but it looks almost there
My thoughts exactly. I know clearance tolerances are sketchy and impacts rather worrisome, but there's a lot of heating potential left because of that larger gap.
I wouldn't try to fix the gap first. I would go 4x on the heating elements. It is less complicated, you need to replicate the existing infrastructure, and along with isolation it could expose true potential. But at the same time I am not an expert on magnetic induction
I'm fascinated to learn that this works with copper pipe. We have an induction hob in our kitchen and the manufacturer's documentation made it very clear that we absolutely must use pans that have ferrous bases. I'm under the impression that your alternating magnets replicate the way an induction cooker works, albeit at a lower frequency. Brilliant video Tim, as always. Thanks for publishing...
Tims wheel works by alternating a magnetic field to induce an electric current, meaning the material only needs to be electrically conductive. An induction hob works by alternating an electric current to induce a magnetic field, meaning the material needs to be magnetic. That's why most stainless steels won't work on an induction hob either.
Copper and aluminium are too conductive. Instead of turning power into heat, it goes back into the induction heater's coil. The coil needs to be rated for the total power, not just the power that heats the pan. A coil rated for 1000W might only be able to put 15W of heat into a copper pan. Magnets don't really have a power rating because their magnetic fields don't change. Austenitic stainless is only slightly less efficient at heating than ferritic stainless or carbon steel, but that still represents double or more power being returned to the coil. The difference in efficiency is most likely due to magnetic hysteresis - energy lost when the magnetic field changes direction. Non magnetic metals are dependant entirely on electrical resistance to induced currents to produce heat. Finally, aluminium and copper will levitate given enough power. Having pans flying off the hob isn't ideal, but an induction furnace can make use of this to create levitating balls of molten metal. There are plenty of clips of that here on RUclips.
Non ferrous mate, a ferrous base is iron or steel which don’t work and will probably damage the hob that’s why you use aluminium bases or copper basses.
Turn the disk so it's vertical, and the axis of rotation is horizontal. That will put a vertical orientation to the heating pipes so convection is stronger. Make a pipe that bends to follow the magnets for a bit less than 180 degrees. The inlet will be attached at the low end, and the outlet will be attached to the top end. Make a mirror image for the other half of the disk. Then, add more rows of magnets to the disk and make two more collector pipes for each row of magnets.
Could you measure the power draw from the motor, with and without the pipe in place? The currents in the pipe oppose the rotation of the disk, putting strain on the motor. The difference in power draw would give you an upper limit on how much heat is produced in the pipe.
Here’s my thoughts Tim. So before you go to the trouble of insulating the water pipes and tank and seeing what the temperature rise of the volume of water over time is, ie the amount of energy transferred. Like an electrical generator you can quickly see what the power output versus the power in is, ie the efficiency by measuring the power delivered into a resistive load whilst measuring the current into the motor with the load attached? Well we can clearly see “work being done” in your water heater and your load is the effectively the copper pipe with a volume of water contained in the active length of tube in proximity to the magnets, yeah? So If you put a clamp meter over the incoming live or neutral conductor of the mains to the motor and monitor the current into the motor once the disc is up to speed, so in order to improve the efficiency of the system then if you move the copper pipe towards the spinning disc magnets and away, there should be a noticeable change in current drawn by the motor because we know then that work is certainly being done and energy is being transferred into the copper pipe and the water being heated. So my thinking is if it was me I would firstly be thinking that I need to get my copper “pickup” system, ie the copper pipe to be as efficient as possibly. Now I appreciate that you probably have thought all about this and some may suggest why not just have a copper induction coil and generate electricity instead but that’s not your intention here as you want to directly heat water? We are passing an alternating magnetic field into a copper pipe and the eddy currents in the pipe are producing heat, thinking about the magnetic field and the size and strength of the actual magnetic field and let’s briefly compare to an electrical generator for a moment… in the pick-up coil of the electrical generator, the coupled output power is determined by the length and thickness of the wire composing the coil so we want to add as much “copper” into the pickup,coil as we can and we do that in two possible ways, we wind as many turns of the wire into the coil as possible. We can increase the number of turns of wire by reducing the thickness of the wire that will give us a higher voltage out but reduce the current because of the effective series resistance of the length of copper wire. So if we increase the thickness of the copper wire we will clear.y have to reduce the number of turns in the coil so we increases the current but reduce the voltage, we therefore choose the optimum amount of turns versus the thickness of the wire. Now we need to capture as much of that rotating magnetic field into the surface area of the pickup coil and so we add an iron core to the pickup coil (we laminate the core to reduce the loss due to eddy currents) so that we can transfer as much of the magnetic flux from the spinning disc. Going back to the water heater system we need to think about the eddy currents that are being produced and how can we increase them? I would experiment with the size, shape and mass of the copper “pickup” system. So what about trying some of the below: 1) if you replace the copper pipe with a solid lump of copper - the shape may be important - try a disc or a cube, extend the length of the disc or cube to make a cylinder or cuboid and adjust the length and proximity of the object to get the biggest draw in motor current. Try maybe a hexagonal cross sectional area of the block? So if you find the bock heats up really quickly then that might be better if you solder a spiral coil onto the top of the block to transfer the heat into the water? 2) Compare the above results with those obtained from taking some thinner tube say 8 or 10mm diameter and wind a flat spiral and once again monitor the motor current whilst moving the position of the pickup tube. Try even a vertical coil of tubing versus the previously described flat coil. What about stacking a number of the flat spiral tubes on top of each other or wind 2 or 3 vertical coils of different diameters to sit inside each other and then connect all of the tubes together therefore maximising the volume of water being heated. 3) If you experimenting with option 2 and using multiple coils then it might be important to electrically isolate each tube as you don’t want to produce an induction coil so if you connect all of the separate tubes with neoprene or silicon tube then this might maximise the amount of eddy currents in the total surface area of the copper ? Taking it a stage further to prevent the water conductivity reducing the efficiency you might need to add an electrically insulating lining to the tube but using one that has good thermal conductivity ? Sorry for the lengthy explanation, I have ADHD a and I have to describe my thinking as a logical series of steps, I struggle to be concise lol 😂
Didnt read any comments before i typed my own extended comment. Also said that hes not going to gain much (some 10% at best) from isolation of the tubing. I estimated the motor power delivery, bc he gave the output, so i could guesstulate the efficiency. I came to 20%, very roughly of course. Which means he has to get 3 times more energy out of the system (so 4 times what is now), wihouth increasing input of course, to start to become competative with a generator (80% efficiency minimal). Atm 80% is losses. Since you cant decrease that from isolation and friction from belt, bearings, and so, it means a big overhaul of the system itself. Not only the pick up as you and i saw just now some others too have mentioned, but the entire disc will have to be encased. That means heat will rise inside aswell, which is good, bc it contributes to the water heating up and also helps in providing a failsafe device. But it has consequences for design and materials chosen, as that captured heat inside the3 enclosure also affects everything in there. Thats also when isolation becomes beneficial. As output water is hotter, losses rise, as a bigger delta t = more losses. So only then will you see a benefit from isolation, when the water actually becomes hot. Water of 23 celcius in a room of close to 20 celcius is minimal losses. far less than 1 % Funny to see how everyone focusses on their own thing. I focussed more on the system in total and losses and so, while you focus more on the pickup system. ;]
oops Said room is 20, bit is 13ish. So a bit more delta t. Still wouldnt be a high amount of loss though. Having said that, the temp doesnt rise anymore after it reaching 23, which means losses are as big as gains. So at that point its 100% loss. Since delta t is still low, that means the energy from induction is very low. If it cant keep up the low loss of a delta t of some 10 degrees, its very low. The isolation he says it needs, is not going to fix that. The plastic pipe already has some isolation properties. He's probably already losing almost as much as he gains in the copper pipe, to air. Air will also be moving there, since the disc spins fast. And even though air is a good insolator, moving air is not. Losses will be high there.
Don’t feel bad. RUclips has censored myself on numerous occasions for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Being truthful, transparent and honest will get you removed and then the handcuffs go on for a while. I can’t understand their reasoning and they never explain theirs
When bending copper pipe. Anneal it first! Heat it to glowing red and let it cool or quench it (it doesn’t matter how quickly you cool it) it won’t kink and it will be much easier to bend. Copper pipe work hardens over time but annealing it won’t take away much burst rating.
copper that is red hot will not bend, it will tear at the spot that has the most stress on it. A simple proper pipe bender would have worked just fine.
Whenever I see one of your videos pop up, click on it and I get so much joy even just from the intro starting.. you are so wholesome, it brings me much happiness.
Very interesting, Tim. MDF will not keep its shape in this setup but I think you know that already. I'm looking forward to you and the commenter's figuring this out and then powering it with a windmill. So many uses for a windmill. Cheers 🇨🇦
Wow, so very cool, love this project! Also, 10 degree in 10 minutes looks great to me, if i'm not incorrect the ambient temperature was pretty low too. Insulation would surely help a lot!. My suggestions (you'll surely already tought of them) are to make two or three circles of magnets, instead of just one (eventually even more). Then loop the tube in a spiral so that each loop sits exacly on top of a circle of magnets. This way you'll multiply your heating power by two or three. If i understood correctly, the windmill will spin slowly but have a great torque so extra drag wouldn't be an issue. Also on due time, you can dump the whole spiral in an insulating material like expanding foam, as to create a disk that will sit on top of the spinning wheel. Another suggestion: add one of those wheely thing that show the flow of water on the pipes so you can see how much the heat causes circulation (unuseful but interesting :P)
That improves the coupling to the magnets which will increase the torque needed. There is a trade off where too much can stall the turbine reducing the power.
I haven't read the comments, but one thing I would consider is having a taller, narrower water container with a pipe fitting at the bottom and one at the top just below the surface of the water. The effect would be to induce a circular flow of the water, the cooler water at the bottom will sink down while the hotter return water will go to the top, Insulate the whole water system to improve efficiency. You have a very unique and potentially valuable idea.
This a neat project. If you make another wheel, consider putting something ferrous metal on the under side of the disc where you're inserting a magnet. The magnet should then stick to that metal through the wood and massively reduce the risk of it coming out of the hole and trying to re-attach to the stack of magnets you're still holding. Making some wooden u-shaped tabs to slide over each space to hold the magnet in place while you slot the next ones in means no need to wait for glue to dry, you can then make a second wheel with a lot of slots cut in to fit over those tabs and just place it on top. No need for glue at that point.
G'day Tim and Sandra from Adelaide, Australia! I've been watching your videos for a while now and I'd just like to say thanks for inspiring me to make my own items from complete scratch. You make the most amazing and practical items from all sorts of bits and bobs. It also makes very entertaining videos. This is truly the best part to RUclips. Keep up the great work and thanks!
We use thermal syphons at work. Some things we do are: 1 keep the pipes short. 2 The hot pipe should enter the liquid in the reservoir 2/3 of the way up in the side with the return from the bottom. 3 At the end that heats the water, the cold should come in the bottom and hot out the top... SO im thinking, you mount this thing on its side. You make a full ring of copper with 2 t-pieces, top and bottom, you pipe it into an insulated reservoir as described before and see how that does. If you had a reservoir higher than this diameter you could mount this said contraption on the side and pipe it straight in.
My Pop had the most disorganized shop I have ever seen. It was all ogranized in his head as he had a legitimate photographic memory. He never absent-mindedly laid a tool down, because he was never "absent minded". He only had things go missing when I came through and moved one of his tools and he wasn't there to watch where I put it.
It's harder to construct, but a duct-in-duct arrangement might be more effective. A rotating barrel with the magnets in multiple rows mounted on the outside of an inner duct, to pass the working fluid (water, air, whatever), with a circular bearing at each end to maintain the smallest gap possible. There's an old design that had a layer of oil between two such cylindrical pieces. Come to think of it, if the outer cylinder is ferrous or the magnets are just strong enough, they could be mounted on the outside, to keep the inner side smooth and create a very tight gap.
Just a thought , the tube being round has a stronger pull at the closest point to the magnets and get weaker as it comes up the side of the tube , use square section instead of tube , it will keep the field even over the surface and give a much more consistent heating
Still look at Vertical-axis turbines for your back garden. They strong because both ends of the shaft is supported. Less chance of running afoul with height restrictions. Easier to service. Heating water one side and the opposite side coils to produce 12 volts and battery. Charging battery power tools.🤔
Great effort! 1. Insulate all the pipework and bucket to reduce radiant heat losses. 2. Extend the copper pipe beside the magnets. 3 Measure rpm of the disk while 4. Measure current draw on the motor driving the disk vs revs per minute, to make sure the setup is not stalling. Adjust distance of copper pipe from the disk to max torque without stalling the motor, which equals max heating effect. 5. Keep having fun, because we are! Notes: You could measure torque by deflection of a spring loaded idler pulley on the belt. For a setup with 'natural' inputs like wind or a water wheel, there will be an optimum torque vs rpm at which you will get maximum power out. Adjust the length of copper pipe or its distance from the disk to adjust how much power is being extracted while letting the setup run in the optimum torque/rpm range. Data is king!
Wonderful video, thanks! I think if a fellow wanted to focus on improving the heater element, he might start with room temperature water, a set time for test, which is short enough to make delta T small enough to not be affected by ambient losses. He might also cut that water volume way down for bigger deltas over shorter tests. He could just have two stand pipes on either end, vinyl hose, flush it from the room temp bucket before every test for super fast test reloads. I'm just an old engineer trying to learn beekeeping, and if I recall, you are trying to generate eddy currents (think tiny little tornadoes) inside metal, more better than last time. Certainly there are specialists, but for us mortals, that's Art, or Voodoo (depending on pay and culture). You need a rig that allows a lot of trial and error. It's going to be an iterative approach. By the way, do you have those travel toys over there, a face with metal filings and a little magnet pen to give the fellow a mustache? If so, you might hold him up to your rig and see what your magnetic field actually looks like. Maybe it's not what you think, or where you think, or maybe it needs some iron laminations to focus it, or spinning magnet disks in each side of the heater, et cetera.
The motive force in a convectiom circuit is gravity. The warm water has a lower density than the cold. This makes it lighter in comparrison. Gravity then pulls the heavy cold side down which lifts the lighter warm side. Much like a seesaw. The initial surge of heat is due to the fact that the water isnt flowing. So more energy is passed to the stationery water, once it starts to flow however each pass through the heat and only pick up so much of the energy. Think a roundabout, its easy to give that first big spin but actually harder to keep putting that same energy in to make it go faster, you end up with a maximum energy transfer. To improve energy transfer you need more water in contact with the copper, the water in the middle of the pipe is doing nothing, and you need more copper closer to the magnets. Either a rectangular pipe or perhaps 3 pieces of 10mm side by side would work
Another fantastic video that gets my imagination going! That big disk, all varnished and shiny makes me happy. Haha. I don't have much to say that a dozen other commenters haven't already. Well... maybe for a nice smooth pipe bend, you can try a technique used to bend brass tubing for instruments. To avoid kinks in the tubing, cap one end and fill it with water, then freeze the water into ice. While it's frozen, bend the pipe to keep its circumference even. After it melts, left with a nice curved, round tube. Although, the radius on this pipe seems like it'd be fine using a roller bender without issue. 😅 Amazing work, as always.
That looks... horrifyingly safe. It's great. I'm pretty sure the best bet for increasing heat is going to be decreasing the gap between the pipe and the magnets, or increasing the length of the area in contact. It's a bit hard to tell, but it looks like the pipe and magnets are a cm apart at closest, but you really want them to be uncomfortably close to capture as much of the flux as possible- motors seem like they're sub mm, but I figure you'd do fine at 2-4mm. If you could flatten the copper pipe so that more of it's closer to the magnets that might help, though probably better would be getting a thin flat copper sheet/plate and soldering it to the pipe.
Rotation to heat - just use a shorted out electric motor. There are cheap watercooled car alternators which do just this to help warming up the car faster. You will get the bearings and pulley for free and it will even be possible to regulate power by shorting the three phase wires in different ways. The trick which makes the alternator smaller for the same power is it having a closed magnetic loop with small air gap which your arangement does lack.
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff* For insulation, buy "pool noodles" & cut length-wise along one side of them (or if you can just disassemble the system & "sleeve" the noodles onto the pipes?, no cutting needed). Quite cheap to buy, decent insulation.
What would happen if you put the wheel next to an old cast iron radiator? What would happen if you put 2 full loops of copper over the magnets? What would happen if there were 2 rows of magnets? (The same work spinning, but twice the heat? ) Just love the messing around and finding out as we go!
Next to an old cast iron radiator? It would slowly start to heat it up. Two full loops of copper over the magnets? It would heat up but put more drag on the wheel slowing it down (or requiring more energy to keep it at the same speed). Two rows of magnets? You'd get twice the magnetic power but also double the force trying to slow the wheel down, a bit like pressing your foot on a car's brake pedal twice as hard - sure you get more heat in the brake pads but the car stops more quickly as well.
I think this is a brilliant idea. I want to test something like this myself now. I have a windmill at my house. It's simply for decoration now but it used to be used for pumping water. I think you should do some tests on how much resistance there is for different lengths of pipe. Can you go around the entire circumference of the circle? Or would that require too much torque to keep it spinning? Also what is the difference between copper pipe and aluminum pipe? Definitely insulate everything.
Oh by the way, you don’t need magnets and conductors to heat water - you can just spin the water with paddles and it’ll heat up due to friction - this is actually exactly how the heat capacity of water was first calculated as part of a big series of work by Joule
Tips, well, the first thing my 6 year old daughter said was that you could also boil the egg in the bucket, once the water heats up enough. 😜 My thoughts: the pipe is probably not optimal to pick up the induction, and it probably isn't the most optimal heat exchanger to get the heat from metal to water. I understand the simplicity and charm of passive circulation, but since this will be driven by a windmill, why not also use a pump for circulation. Heat transfer is more efficient with a bigger temperature difference, so it would probably help efficiency to increase the flow rate.
how laptop cooling pipes work. sintered for internal porosity. thanks for sharing the low budget version though- your version normal hobbyists can make.
Have you tried running a steel pipe through the copper pipe? As the copper should spread the heat evenly though said pipe However, the copper should be snug to the steel pipe for noticeable results. Choose a non rust like 316 or 304 stainless steel. Also look at your induction field as any pipe outside it won’t heat the water either. 🎉loving your work🍻
If there's a lot of inertia stopping he disc from spinning, does that mean the windmill will only be able to spin it on very windy days? On days with moderate wind you might have to go out and get it going by hand maybe?
I was wondering that too. I suppose some sort of ratcheting mechanism might be useful, so the windmill can add energy into the wheel without having the wheel turn the windmill when the wind is variable. If that makes sense.
I've seen some wind charts of his area, he has a lot of wind and very variable as well. I expect there will be some moments where the mill stalls, but there will also be gusts of wind to jolt it in action again. And with the size of windmill he is building, I think he will already generate quite a lot of energy.
Excellent idea! I enjoy watching your thought processes. The only improvement I can think of, aside from the ones you’ve already considered, is allowing the magnets to go through completely giving you double the surface area for your magnetic induction, bending the pipe so it goes completely around the circle of magnets. Then, turn the pipe under have the pipe go back around and then back out. This way, you would use both sides of the magnet and have the pipe the maximum amount of induction heating for the amount of magnets you have. Just my two cents I hope it makes sense completely around the top and the bottom.
I know this project is kind of just fiddling about. So feel free to ignore this and the slightly factious comment. Now there is another type of system that simplifies where the inductor placement and design. If you take the magnets and arrange them along a rotating spinning shaft you can concentrate the magnetic flux in a very small area. This is wonderful for simplifying the mechanical size and controlling rotor speeds considerably. Now if you surround this magnetic field with loops of wire, you can transfer the magnetic flux to a coil a surprising distance away. If you size the other coil to the side and shape of the pot/pan you are using you can induce the same energy. And surprisingly the efficiency of the entire system will be no different from using the mechanical linkage to the rotor of magnets. (I.e. you have essentially made an electric generator in a rather inefficient configuration. Many of the early electric experiments did use large flywheels of rotating disks of permanent magnets. The only change in efficiency for using wire to connect it to a remote coil is the resistance and length of then wire. Which would probably cancel out the inefficiency in the large flywheels design. There is no difference in the transfer of mechanical energy to electrical vs magnetic flux…it’s essentially identical)
This is extremely interesting and I'm very much enjoying the experiment. You asked for suggestions and I had one that I was keeping to myself but at the end of the video you asked for it so here it is. So far I think everything is wonderful and obviously you're making positive progress. Up to this point I would have liked to seen the magnets installed precisely flush with the surface rather than lifted in different angles. Not that it would make much difference but in an experiment such as this we can only shoot for the best outcomes in certainly the direction of the magnet could play a part in a negative outcome. Thanks for letting me comment and thanks for the video!
If you can put the copper tube closer to the magnets. That will increase the heating effect exponentially. Also if you can make copper tube more flat it will also increase efficiency. Good luck with the project 💪🏼
Put the spinning magnets above and below and then spin those magnets in opposite directions and then another wheel of magnets on the outside of those spinning magnets only turn them vertically with a oscillating wheel that will move back and forth along the length of the copper and before you say that could be hard your question was for an idea not how to set it up. LOLSSS
1. Mount magnets with an exposed face on each side of the wheel. Consider casting magnets in epoxy, then milling? 2. Have pipe in a full circle on both sides of the wheel. 3. Balance wheel. 4. Minimize air gap between pipe and wheel. 5. Insulate system. Love the idea, now I want to do something similar.
The best thing you can do for efficiency is two thing balance out the magnet wheel. Vibration and shaking = more input power needed. And anneal the copper before bending it and a cheap set of bending springs will prevent kinking
You will get much better result if you generate electricity and use a heating element in the bucket. It will also be simpler to build with fewer parts.
Actually this has the potential to be much more efficient. Every time you convert energy to another form you lose efficiency. This only converts kinetic energy to heat. Your method converts kinetic energy to electricity and then to heat. if this is connected by direct shaft to a wind turbine without the use of gears and pullies the maximum amount of kinetic energy is available to convert to heat. The variable is what materials to use convert to heat and conduct it into the water.
You will capture much more energy if you make a complete circle of your 3/4" copper piping, elevating one end slightly, to allow for convection circulation of the water, while insulating all of the copper and tubing associated with it including the collection tank. Hope this helps. Built a number of this type of heaters in my time and won the science fair when I was 12 years old with one. Instead of induction heating, though, I was using solar collection for the heat source. Thanks for posting.
Wonderful project! You want to maximize the natural convective flow in the system by maximizing the height difference between the cold leg inlet and hot leg outlet while still keeping the hot leg outlet submerged below the surface of the water outlet. You will start to see increased rate of heat transfer.
Wrap the pipe around the whole thing and insulate it in fiberglass so it won’t build up a static charge. Then the next level of efficiency, you can add additional layers of magnets to the center and bend much narrower pipes into several close bends to maximize contact or use old radiators if you can find them. After that you can add another disk above the pipes and try switching to oil as it will retain heat better. If you can get the heat high enough you can lead the oil into a closed loop with a small pump and an engine heatsink to a water reservoir and a water tank.
I would: 1) Bring the metal much closer to the magnets, maybe stick felt to the bottom of the pipe but it should sit on the disk, friction will be minimal. 2) Another ring of magnets above the metal - but it doesn't need to be a solid disk it only needs to be held to the lower disk, come up and around the pipe. Maybe the pipe should be longer too. Lots of love
You forgot the back flow preventer, so the water pressure was forcing out the copper both directions. Try opening a coffee pot to examine the parts. Look for the back flow ball.
To make it easier to bend the copper pipe, heat it up with a torch. Once the copper is annealed, it will bend very easily. Also, if you can borrow a hand conduit bender, it would be much easier than the hydraulic bender.
Put them in concentric rings, then run the copper piping in a pattern that maximizes it's length spanning these concentric rings, top and bottom. This way you are not wasting the mechanical energy. You can also put it in a box with a vacuum, this way air friction is eliminated. With improvements you can make your setup an awful lot smaller.
This is both terrifying and brilliant at the same time!! I love the concept you're exploring and even if the mechanism scares the bejeesus out of me, it's fantastic!!
The issue is the magnetic field is not fully enclosing the copper pipe. You could make it work better with two discs with magnets(in holes) with a square tubing(or flattened copper tubing) in the middle. Also have a soft iron plate(can be segmented into arc) covering two magnets at a time(can also be glued). The magnet poles need to alternate in the same disc as well as the one below. The magets in top disc and bottom disc should lineup with opposite poles to complete the magnetic circuit through pipe. The two discs can be attached together to make them look like a single disc, with spacing in between. In simple terms, it will resemble a diy windmill generator without coils, but copper tubing on the edge. You also need to slide the flattened tube to position, between discs, instead of flipping it from above. Just some suggestions.
I've ran pipe directly into the hot water heater tank like this using solar heating and thermo dynamics the same as you with great results, solar gain would gradually heat the water even on cloudy days hotter than the ambient water temperature because everything was insulated and heated water rises. I would recommend running the top tank higher, 30-50 feet above the heat source allows for greater temperature and pressure differentials. getting an insulated hot water tank and to wrap your exposed pipe with insulated lagging. The magnetic effect should still work through the 1/2 inch or so of foam insulation. Great work, hope you can rig this up with bicycle chains or something to your wind turbine.
Pipe insulation will conserve the heat for better convection flow. a shorter tube might help, not lower than the magnet surface. good science, Thank you
Way Out West. Something great to use for induction heating would be to surround the copper pipe and or copper wire that has the casing still on it with the water you want to heat up some how also keeping it close enough to the magnets to receive the induction. That's all the insulation you need that you already have.("The water it's self").
Use a thick tube on the hot water and a thin tube on the cold one. That's how old boilers work. It was used, at least in Sweden, before everyone had electricity for circulation.
An electric heating element has minimal loses compared to a Drill press, gear reduction, belt, hub/bearing, large wheel. But I applaud you for the efforts and tinkering! Other thing to note is that the direction of the turning wheel should be equal to the direction of the heated fluid, in this video they are opposing.
I was wondering about the hypothetical efficiency of this wheel of magnets versus something like using the wind mill to turn one or more car alternators and then using the current to power a resistive heating element.
You are building an awesome machine! Suggestion #1. Strap the probe of a digital oven thermometor to the return (hot) water hose Suggestion #2. Install a tube in your bucket so the return water comes out at the top of the bucket and add more water. This will stop the return water from flowing back to the down stream hose creating a short circuit. You will need to reinforce the hub of you MDF "plywood. Perhaps the center of a tire rim that fits that brake drum would be enough. Oh yeah, have you given any thought to generating electricity on the opposite side of the rotor from the hot water side?
I've been working on something similar, not as large of a spinning disk, with a large coil of 1/2" copper tubing as the non-ferrous heating coil. Rather than a single row of magnets, I arranged two rows of magnetron ring magnets in two rows, the copper coil arranged to go around the entire magnet disk with the entire area of the copper coil exposed to the rotating magnets at a lower RPM. Also, I used a check valve on the cold-water inlet side, and an expansion tank on the heated side with a closed 20-gallon steel tank. A small positive displacement gear motor circulation pump circulates the water back to the beginning point on the heated copper coil. This is closer to what a standard electric water heater would do internally, only with less electric energy. The disk does not need to be helped to begin spinning, other than the start capacitor, and the tank temperature is limited with a single bulb type probe thermostat. It works but I think the slower heating recovery time would take three of these to use in a normal home use scenario providing continuous hot water at around the total heating cost of a standard 40-gallon electric water heater, except this would be continuously heating over the limited recovery time of the standard water heater. - I have noticed the stronger magnets don't require faster motion to do work required. The set temperature I use is 135 degrees F.
Thats a brilliant concept. My home is in a VERY windy area, particularly during the winter. I could utilize something like this to help heat my house and shops. Its so windy commercial windmills can’t be built. I imagine some small windmills on a dodge gear box might be practical!
Magnetic induction is such a fascinating thing, and so baffling even after 200 years of it. Thank you, Michael Faraday. I recently used magnetic induction for my health. Have you heard of Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation? There is a rabbt hole to fall into if you ever get a chance between all your busy projects. Thanks, Tim, for making science fun!
Nice work. Totally looks like something I would do (and my wife would scratch her head at). Here are my suggestions... have your "heater" pipe maybe do a complete loop around the perimeter of the wheel for full-contact with flux-field. Shorten all the rest of the plumbing as much as possible, the extreme height difference isn't required for this type of hydrothermal "pumping" action. And clearly, insulate all plumbing, even the top of the "heater" pipe.
Congratulations Dr. Gauss. 🧑🔬You have stirred the interest of over 500 commenters, many of whom are fully engaged as indicated by their constructive contributions. I have nothing to add except that you might consider wearing a flack jacket or ballistic vest, should that rotating wheel pick up a loose piece of metal or a tool and 'centrificate' it in your direction. 🙂
I would suggest getting better concentricity on your large wheel by mounting it on the rotational spinning system after cutting, then using wood lathe tools to cut the outside diameter into exact roundness with it spinning at a good RPM. This would reduce wobbling and improve balance so there's less wear and risk for breakage over time on the bearings. The insulation on the pipes was also something that came immediately to mind due to thermal dissipation as the water travels through the pipes. An alternative would be to increase the RPM on your induction motor and heat the pipe hotter, but that seems contrary to the point of increasing the diameter of the wheel. An alternative would be to build a second wheel with magnets in opposite configuration (so they don't attract to the other wheel) and putting it with a spacer above the other wheel and therefore the pipe you're trying to heat - so you'd have an induction wheel above and below the pipe to increase the thermal induction rate being imparted into the pipe without having to greatly modify the overall design. That would improve heating speed and maximum temperature without an RPM increase, but would also increase cost and effort to make an entire second wheel. It could also introduce more wobbling or vibration if the roundness and concentricity aren't balanced between both wheel plates and their mounts, but could be offset by cutting them both to be exactly round with the previously mentioned technique or by using weight offsets opposite of the unbalanced section of wheel - a technique used with car and bike wheels with attached small metal weights. Obviously, don't use ferrous metals for balancing weights on a wheel that's got a ton of magnets, and put the counterbalance weights on the outer top and bottom of the wheels to keep them from attracting the other wheel's magnets. lmao A genius idea overall you've got here. I'm definitely going to need to use a similar idea for something in the future. Thank you for the video and idea!
No, that's all right. The proof on concept is done. Your next step is to have the water heat exchange pipe extended over the circumference of the wheel, so you can then effectively multiply your existing one foot or so of heated pipe. Secondly, the tolerances and inverse square law of electromagnetism. By halving the distance between the pipe and magnets you'll increase the intensity of the field 4 times. Good work! 👍
Hi. great work. I did something like that years ago. I learned your copper tube should be flat and it most almost touch the wheel. I used a bench grinder and a smaller wheel. good luck my man.
If possible try smaller pipe 1/4 or 3/8, then rap around the 3 time or so. Make sure to get the pipe as close to the magnets as possible. Also I’m was thinking 400hz or higher. Just some ideas that ran through my mind while watching your video. I love your project, keep it going.
Very cool! I'm sure you're planning it already once you have things more settled, but using the full circumference of the disc instead of a small section should get you waaaaaay more heat.
As mentioned below, a complete circle of copper tubing or more in a smaller diameter to make the circle trip more than once? Maybe add a small amount of preheated water back into the feed line,...aka; pre-heater. Steam generation uses waste heat that way. Fascinating project here. Love this stuff. 👍👍
Wrap the pipes with pool noodles. They fit good and with stand the heat. Or simple spray foam high temp. But the pipes will be forever covered in spary foam.
Great work Tim! I read many of the comments and everything I thought of was covered so no more from me. Did you plant your garlic yet? I wanted to have mine in by now, but it has been unseasonably warm so I have not felt pressured to get it done. Cheers!
What you need is a radiator type arrangement. A "simple" version could be to bend thin copper pipe into a "u" shape so that it sits on both sides of the rim, hugging the wheel. This would expose the pipe to both sides of the magnet effectively doubling your electron movement within the metal. If you could bend the pipe back and forth, you could effectively cover the whole wheel, though I'm not sure how this might affect the flow of water.
![BRASIL vs. URUGUAY [1-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-hWBAuxF1eY/mqdefault.jpg)
Mabe make a circle of copper tubing that follows the full circumference of the magnet wheel, that way all the magnets are continuously heating up the pipe. Also, you'll need lots of insulation and an insulated hot water reservoir. Also, try adding "check valves" to make sure the hot water is being circulated and is constantly being heated. The hot water might not actually be flowing.
I was thinking this, but then would it not make more sense to make the pipe the same shape as a serpentine coil. As is the pipe is exposed to the same state of magnetic flux at the same time which is likely negating the effect. If the entire serpentine pjpe is only above north or south at the same time it should get a better effect from the alternating magnetic field. You could also have another coil of pipe underneath for double the distance. Requires some complicated pipe bending but should be doable with 6mm ID soft copper. Scrap that copper isnt magnetic. 2 circular pipes that run above and below with a small circle of stainless steel the same size and the magnet attached to the copper pipe. This would need to be every other magnet so it’s not exposed to north and south at the same time. The steel gets hot and transferee the heat to the copper pipe. Because the copper isn’t magnetic it won’t be effected by being over both magnets at once. You may also need a small mechanical pump as water is effected by strong magnetic fields even tho is technically not magnetic.
Maybe solder or weld a copper strip on the bottom of the pipe to catch a wider area of the 'flux' field. I think the tube has only a very small surface close to the magnets.
I was about to suggest this as well, perhaps with flat bottomed square pipe or pip with heat conducting bottom plate / fins all covered in insulating foam on top. Also, I wonder about a double but thinner tube so it can coil around more than once. Finally, If you can increase the stability of the spin so the pipe can get as close to the magnets as possible without hitting (a mm or so) you'll make the absolute most of the magnet strength.
@@mikeutube82 what about a follower wheel running on the disc holding the pipe a set distance off the disc.
going to agree that you might be better off doing a complete copper ring as all the other flips are being wasted ....
Really cool: I’m an hvac designer and do heat loss related calculations as part of my work. The energy to heat the 5L of water 10 degrees is: Q=mc(dT) = (4184J/kg C)(5kg)(10C) = 209,200J. Since it was heated over 10 min that’s 209,200J/600s = 348.6 Watts of power. It’s hard to estimate the losses since I don’t know the ambient air temperature, but at 23C water, assuming about 13C ambient: I’m estimating around 250 Watts or so, with some quick lookups, with around 80% of that loss being in the piping. So that’s at least the same ball park as the above calculation: if you insulated everything you might be able to heat up a bit of water for a sink or a small outdoor shower.. (or, you can pipe it in to a regular water heater and reduce your demand, and probably eliminate your standby demand to keep the water hot when not in use) nice work!
I just knew someone would calculate that - well done!
Yeah, but the energy required to rotate the entire wheel plus the frictions and tremblings and pipings will get you a net loss.
So apart from a fun experiment, and maybe human-powered (via bike, or manual gearing), it’s mostly useless.
Without talking about the initial cost of the energy need for magnetizing the magnets.
Yes. I envision a stationary bike sitting next to a hot water tank. Every morning someone gets on and pedals like the devil. They get their exercise AND they bring a tank of water up to temp for the day (or, at least, offset the fuel used to heat it.)
You never know, we might all have to do this someday when the power grid goes down... 🤔
Maybe pay attention to the watts, current and voltage of the drill there could be a voltage drop under load in the drill input end. Then circle the entire wheel to take advantage of the full circumference. Keep the loads balanced. Before a coil burns out it generally starts to draw more current.
Theres nothing better on youtube than an old man making cool stuff out of essentially junk
I'd imagine he put out a good bit of money to get rare earth magnets of that size.
Junk?? do you know what a neodynium magnet is???
He got them for free if you had listened to the first part of his video!
Ageist
It's not cool if all he is doing is re-inventing the wheel. Let's see something NEW and INNOVATIVE!!
Two suggestions for improvement. First you have an open magnetic circuit; the underneath is completed in air. A Halback array will make a massive difference to the flux induced. Secondly, your copper pipe is too thin. A thicker block of copper will generate more internal current and hence heat. Try to minimise all air gaps. For your present arrangement, magnetic steel lamination connecting north south under the disk will help. Good luck Dr Paul
Difference
I agree with everything except the Halbach array, if he did that it would space out the flipped poles so while it would definitely get stronger on the top side it might reduce the flux so it might be tricky to get it to work better (there's probably a clever way around that though), it might also be difficult if he's using the same kind of magnets on the rotated ones to get them to happily fit snuggly into the disk. A laminated steel "magnetic yolk" is a great idea but it would add a fair amount of mass to the rim and you'd have to be careful to avoid laminated steel throwing stars... you could probably use a microwave oven transformer cut into pieces. It's also a good way to remove the temptation of using the microwave oven transformer for something more electrically dangerous, lol. (Those things are terrifying)
Yes, a good magnetic steel under the magnets will increase the flux on top side by almost a factor of 2*. It does not need to be laminated as the flux on the bottom side will be almost constant. It must be thick enough that it does not saturate too much though. As the heating effect is close to quadratic of the magnetic flux, increasing it by a factor of 2 will give about 4 times the heating assuming is all else is the same. *Assuming the magnets are mounted directly on the so called back-iron.
Well Sir, there are a few things that occurred to me
1. The balance is critical for stability. There are procedures online for manual trial weight balancing or if you have a friend with vibration analysis gear.
2. You essentially have a gigantic disk and for heating, you can double the effectiveness by mounting 2 heaters like a disk brake caliper with a screw advance to control the gap more precisely.
3. For insulation, your idea for a woolie-pulley was pretty close to what I had in mind.😅 look for old wool blankets or moving padding and wrap the metal in aluminum foil then apply the fabric and then wrap the whole works. Wire will work or even duct tape.
I love watching your experiments as I absolutely loved that aspect of being in university for Mechanic Engineering Technology and now that I'm retired, I appreciate content like yours and CEE Australia for trade-related content because I'm also an HD Equipment Mechanic 😅
Oh, and modify the shape of your pipe by making it "D" shaped with the flat to the magnets 🧲 for maximum effect 😉👍🍻
Pool noodles for insulation
@jfk720 I thought about that 🤔 but I was concerned about melting it in the heater because it could get quite toasty 🥵. The aluminum foil and non-synthetic fibers may be more resistant 😉
For convenience, hot water pipe insulation foam wraps could work if away from the heater 🤔
Also big copper blocks would be more effective.
@ryelor123 maybe 🤔 more metal is more metal to heat and the goal is to heat the water.
Also, a coiled copper pipe may be an option and easier to replace. ¼" -⅜" line with compression fittings🙂
This looks so close to your original concept, I love it! Everyone is telling you to overcomplicate it but it feels 90% there - it looks like quite a big air gap between the copper pipe and magnets which you want to minimise, and it clearly wants insulation but it looks almost there
My thoughts exactly. I know clearance tolerances are sketchy and impacts rather worrisome, but there's a lot of heating potential left because of that larger gap.
I wouldn't try to fix the gap first. I would go 4x on the heating elements. It is less complicated, you need to replicate the existing infrastructure, and along with isolation it could expose true potential. But at the same time I am not an expert on magnetic induction
I'm fascinated to learn that this works with copper pipe. We have an induction hob in our kitchen and the manufacturer's documentation made it very clear that we absolutely must use pans that have ferrous bases. I'm under the impression that your alternating magnets replicate the way an induction cooker works, albeit at a lower frequency.
Brilliant video Tim, as always. Thanks for publishing...
Tims wheel works by alternating a magnetic field to induce an electric current, meaning the material only needs to be electrically conductive. An induction hob works by alternating an electric current to induce a magnetic field, meaning the material needs to be magnetic. That's why most stainless steels won't work on an induction hob either.
@ OK, that makes sense. Thank you!
Copper and aluminium are too conductive. Instead of turning power into heat, it goes back into the induction heater's coil. The coil needs to be rated for the total power, not just the power that heats the pan. A coil rated for 1000W might only be able to put 15W of heat into a copper pan. Magnets don't really have a power rating because their magnetic fields don't change.
Austenitic stainless is only slightly less efficient at heating than ferritic stainless or carbon steel, but that still represents double or more power being returned to the coil.
The difference in efficiency is most likely due to magnetic hysteresis - energy lost when the magnetic field changes direction. Non magnetic metals are dependant entirely on electrical resistance to induced currents to produce heat.
Finally, aluminium and copper will levitate given enough power. Having pans flying off the hob isn't ideal, but an induction furnace can make use of this to create levitating balls of molten metal. There are plenty of clips of that here on RUclips.
Non ferrous mate, a ferrous base is iron or steel which don’t work and will probably damage the hob that’s why you use aluminium bases or copper basses.
@ Sorry but the pans absolutely do have to have ferrous bases. The instructions recommend taking a magnet to the shop to make sure...
Turn the disk so it's vertical, and the axis of rotation is horizontal. That will put a vertical orientation to the heating pipes so convection is stronger. Make a pipe that bends to follow the magnets for a bit less than 180 degrees. The inlet will be attached at the low end, and the outlet will be attached to the top end. Make a mirror image for the other half of the disk.
Then, add more rows of magnets to the disk and make two more collector pipes for each row of magnets.
Are you taking medication, or did you miss taking it? 😵💫
And don't forget a back flow preventer ball, so the water leaves the heat source in only one direction. (Like a coffee pot)
@ Good one! 👍
Glad to see an update on this project I don't have any ideas to make it work better.
Could you measure the power draw from the motor, with and without the pipe in place? The currents in the pipe oppose the rotation of the disk, putting strain on the motor.
The difference in power draw would give you an upper limit on how much heat is produced in the pipe.
Here’s my thoughts Tim. So before you go to the trouble of insulating the water pipes and tank and seeing what the temperature rise of the volume of water over time is, ie the amount of energy transferred. Like an electrical generator you can quickly see what the power output versus the power in is, ie the efficiency by measuring the power delivered into a resistive load whilst measuring the current into the motor with the load attached?
Well we can clearly see “work being done” in your water heater and your load is the effectively the copper pipe with a volume of water contained in the active length of tube in proximity to the magnets, yeah? So If you put a clamp meter over the incoming live or neutral conductor of the mains to the motor and monitor the current into the motor once the disc is up to speed, so in order to improve the efficiency of the system then if you move the copper pipe towards the spinning disc magnets and away, there should be a noticeable change in current drawn by the motor because we know then that work is certainly being done and energy is being transferred into the copper pipe and the water being heated.
So my thinking is if it was me I would firstly be thinking that I need to get my copper “pickup” system, ie the copper pipe to be as efficient as possibly. Now I appreciate that you probably have thought all about this and some may suggest why not just have a copper induction coil and generate electricity instead but that’s not your intention here as you want to directly heat water?
We are passing an alternating magnetic field into a copper pipe and the eddy currents in the pipe are producing heat, thinking about the magnetic field and the size and strength of the actual magnetic field and let’s briefly compare to an electrical generator for a moment… in the pick-up coil of the electrical generator, the coupled output power is determined by the length and thickness of the wire composing the coil so we want to add as much “copper” into the pickup,coil as we can and we do that in two possible ways, we wind as many turns of the wire into the coil as possible. We can increase the number of turns of wire by reducing the thickness of the wire that will give us a higher voltage out but reduce the current because of the effective series resistance of the length of copper wire. So if we increase the thickness of the copper wire we will clear.y have to reduce the number of turns in the coil so we increases the current but reduce the voltage, we therefore choose the optimum amount of turns versus the thickness of the wire. Now we need to capture as much of that rotating magnetic field into the surface area of the pickup coil and so we add an iron core to the pickup coil (we laminate the core to reduce the loss due to eddy currents) so that we can transfer as much of the magnetic flux from the spinning disc.
Going back to the water heater system we need to think about the eddy currents that are being produced and how can we increase them? I would experiment with the size, shape and mass of the copper “pickup” system. So what about trying some of the below:
1) if you replace the copper pipe with a solid lump of copper - the shape may be important - try a disc or a cube, extend the length of the disc or cube to make a cylinder or cuboid and adjust the length and proximity of the object to get the biggest draw in motor current. Try maybe a hexagonal cross sectional area of the block? So if you find the bock heats up really quickly then that might be better if you solder a spiral coil onto the top of the block to transfer the heat into the water?
2) Compare the above results with those obtained from taking some thinner tube say 8 or 10mm diameter and wind a flat spiral and once again monitor the motor current whilst moving the position of the pickup tube. Try even a vertical coil of tubing versus the previously described flat coil. What about stacking a number of the flat spiral tubes on top of each other or wind 2 or 3 vertical coils of different diameters to sit inside each other and then connect all of the tubes together therefore maximising the volume of water being heated.
3) If you experimenting with option 2 and using multiple coils then it might be important to electrically isolate each tube as you don’t want to produce an induction coil so if you connect all of the separate tubes with neoprene or silicon tube then this might maximise the amount of eddy currents in the total surface area of the copper ? Taking it a stage further to prevent the water conductivity reducing the efficiency you might need to add an electrically insulating lining to the tube but using one that has good thermal conductivity ?
Sorry for the lengthy explanation, I have ADHD a and I have to describe my thinking as a logical series of steps, I struggle to be concise lol 😂
@buffplums : To be concise in writing, try the "enumeration method", around 70% or the "words flood"- will be eliminated!..😂
Didnt read any comments before i typed my own extended comment.
Also said that hes not going to gain much (some 10% at best) from isolation of the tubing.
I estimated the motor power delivery, bc he gave the output, so i could guesstulate the efficiency. I came to 20%, very roughly of course.
Which means he has to get 3 times more energy out of the system (so 4 times what is now), wihouth increasing input of course, to start to become competative with a generator (80% efficiency minimal).
Atm 80% is losses. Since you cant decrease that from isolation and friction from belt, bearings, and so, it means a big overhaul of the system itself.
Not only the pick up as you and i saw just now some others too have mentioned, but the entire disc will have to be encased. That means heat will rise inside aswell, which is good, bc it contributes to the water heating up and also helps in providing a failsafe device. But it has consequences for design and materials chosen, as that captured heat inside the3 enclosure also affects everything in there.
Thats also when isolation becomes beneficial. As output water is hotter, losses rise, as a bigger delta t = more losses. So only then will you see a benefit from isolation, when the water actually becomes hot. Water of 23 celcius in a room of close to 20 celcius is minimal losses. far less than 1 %
Funny to see how everyone focusses on their own thing.
I focussed more on the system in total and losses and so, while you focus more on the pickup system. ;]
oops
Said room is 20, bit is 13ish. So a bit more delta t. Still wouldnt be a high amount of loss though.
Having said that, the temp doesnt rise anymore after it reaching 23, which means losses are as big as gains. So at that point its 100% loss.
Since delta t is still low, that means the energy from induction is very low. If it cant keep up the low loss of a delta t of some 10 degrees, its very low.
The isolation he says it needs, is not going to fix that.
The plastic pipe already has some isolation properties. He's probably already losing almost as much as he gains in the copper pipe, to air. Air will also be moving there, since the disc spins fast. And even though air is a good insolator, moving air is not. Losses will be high there.
And they deleted my entire post under the video.... with calculations.
How crazy can it get with censoring?
Don’t feel bad. RUclips has censored myself on numerous occasions for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Being truthful, transparent and honest will get you removed and then the handcuffs go on for a while. I can’t understand their reasoning and they never explain theirs
I gasped at 2:55. That was a close one!
You don't make that mistake twice.
That was no magnetic force doing that. The UK is full of cheeky ghosts who play tricks on the living.
I did not notice that until you pointed it out...
If you're getting views and comments from nighthawkinlight then you're doing something right 👍
@@paulj9587Or, in this case, almost something very wrong. The danger that situation posed was pretty high.
When bending copper pipe. Anneal it first! Heat it to glowing red and let it cool or quench it (it doesn’t matter how quickly you cool it) it won’t kink and it will be much easier to bend. Copper pipe work hardens over time but annealing it won’t take away much burst rating.
copper that is red hot will not bend, it will tear at the spot that has the most stress on it. A simple proper pipe bender would have worked just fine.
I either fill it with sand or freeze water in it before bending.
Whenever I see one of your videos pop up, click on it and I get so much joy even just from the intro starting.. you are so wholesome, it brings me much happiness.
Very interesting, Tim. MDF will not keep its shape in this setup but I think you know that already. I'm looking forward to you and the commenter's figuring this out and then powering it with a windmill. So many uses for a windmill. Cheers 🇨🇦
Wow, so very cool, love this project! Also, 10 degree in 10 minutes looks great to me, if i'm not incorrect the ambient temperature was pretty low too. Insulation would surely help a lot!. My suggestions (you'll surely already tought of them) are to make two or three circles of magnets, instead of just one (eventually even more). Then loop the tube in a spiral so that each loop sits exacly on top of a circle of magnets. This way you'll multiply your heating power by two or three. If i understood correctly, the windmill will spin slowly but have a great torque so extra drag wouldn't be an issue. Also on due time, you can dump the whole spiral in an insulating material like expanding foam, as to create a disk that will sit on top of the spinning wheel. Another suggestion: add one of those wheely thing that show the flow of water on the pipes so you can see how much the heat causes circulation (unuseful but interesting :P)
Flatten the tube so more surface area close to the magnets. This will also make the water surface heated larger
❤ glad I'm not the only one thinking about flat bottom pipes.
@@MAGnetICus_Attractus I prefer my "bottoms" rounded!😁😁
i'm envisioning a stack of discs with those laptop style heat pipes betwixt. flat and sintered for internal porosity.
That improves the coupling to the magnets which will increase the torque needed. There is a trade off where too much can stall the turbine reducing the power.
Flattening cold copper tubing may cause fractures, might have forge it
When my man speaks of building a Windmill, you just know that he's got some wonderful thoughts going through his head every second of the day.
Excellent work as always! Almost inevitable that every home will have one of these in the kitchen at some stage Tim!
Most people do these days - its called a stove with induction heating.
@@hypercube33 you are lots of fun at parties I'll wager :(
Nice to see the update on this project, I would love to give this a go myself, but those magnets are really expensive.
You can do a smaller scale, home depot sells packs of the neodymium magnets for a reasonable price in store. Make like a coffee cup warmer
I love your commentary almost as much as your ambition. Nice video as always. 👍🏼
Tom, you truly are the mad genius
I love this, fantastic outside the box thinking. Not sure how safe I would feel next to it though 😅 but great proof of concept.
Love watching you take the path less traveled as always, Tim! P.S. A thermal camera might be a worthwhile investment for this project
🔥
I haven't read the comments, but one thing I would consider is having a taller, narrower water container with a pipe fitting at the bottom and one at the top just below the surface of the water. The effect would be to induce a circular flow of the water, the cooler water at the bottom will sink down while the hotter return water will go to the top, Insulate the whole water system to improve efficiency. You have a very unique and potentially valuable idea.
This a neat project.
If you make another wheel, consider putting something ferrous metal on the under side of the disc where you're inserting a magnet. The magnet should then stick to that metal through the wood and massively reduce the risk of it coming out of the hole and trying to re-attach to the stack of magnets you're still holding.
Making some wooden u-shaped tabs to slide over each space to hold the magnet in place while you slot the next ones in means no need to wait for glue to dry, you can then make a second wheel with a lot of slots cut in to fit over those tabs and just place it on top. No need for glue at that point.
Lots of great ideas and tips in this comment. Making clips to hold the magnets is really smart.
G'day Tim and Sandra from Adelaide, Australia! I've been watching your videos for a while now and I'd just like to say thanks for inspiring me to make my own items from complete scratch. You make the most amazing and practical items from all sorts of bits and bobs. It also makes very entertaining videos. This is truly the best part to RUclips. Keep up the great work and thanks!
We use thermal syphons at work. Some things we do are: 1 keep the pipes short. 2 The hot pipe should enter the liquid in the reservoir 2/3 of the way up in the side with the return from the bottom. 3 At the end that heats the water, the cold should come in the bottom and hot out the top... SO im thinking, you mount this thing on its side. You make a full ring of copper with 2 t-pieces, top and bottom, you pipe it into an insulated reservoir as described before and see how that does. If you had a reservoir higher than this diameter you could mount this said contraption on the side and pipe it straight in.
Appreciate your shop, we geniuses love tidy order, and most anything within reaching distance
My Pop had the most disorganized shop I have ever seen. It was all ogranized in his head as he had a legitimate photographic memory. He never absent-mindedly laid a tool down, because he was never "absent minded". He only had things go missing when I came through and moved one of his tools and he wasn't there to watch where I put it.
It's harder to construct, but a duct-in-duct arrangement might be more effective. A rotating barrel with the magnets in multiple rows mounted on the outside of an inner duct, to pass the working fluid (water, air, whatever), with a circular bearing at each end to maintain the smallest gap possible. There's an old design that had a layer of oil between two such cylindrical pieces. Come to think of it, if the outer cylinder is ferrous or the magnets are just strong enough, they could be mounted on the outside, to keep the inner side smooth and create a very tight gap.
Year, that's how Eddy currents will be generated in all of the pipe instead only in the potion facing the magnets as now.👍
Tight gap, heheh
Just a thought , the tube being round has a stronger pull at the closest point to the magnets and get weaker as it comes up the side of the tube , use square section instead of tube , it will keep the field even over the surface and give a much more consistent heating
Still look at Vertical-axis turbines for your back garden. They strong because both ends of the shaft is supported. Less chance of running afoul with height restrictions. Easier to service. Heating water one side and the opposite side coils to produce 12 volts and battery. Charging battery power tools.🤔
Great effort! 1. Insulate all the pipework and bucket to reduce radiant heat losses. 2. Extend the copper pipe beside the magnets. 3 Measure rpm of the disk while 4. Measure current draw on the motor driving the disk vs revs per minute, to make sure the setup is not stalling. Adjust distance of copper pipe from the disk to max torque without stalling the motor, which equals max heating effect. 5. Keep having fun, because we are! Notes: You could measure torque by deflection of a spring loaded idler pulley on the belt. For a setup with 'natural' inputs like wind or a water wheel, there will be an optimum torque vs rpm at which you will get maximum power out. Adjust the length of copper pipe or its distance from the disk to adjust how much power is being extracted while letting the setup run in the optimum torque/rpm range. Data is king!
For smaller gap, you could put rollers under, its also might take wonkiness away.
Mesmerisingly fascinating to watch. Keep up the great work. This is what RUclips is about, for me and many others.
Great work Tim !! Real interesting stuff, thanks
Wonderful video, thanks! I think if a fellow wanted to focus on improving the heater element, he might start with room temperature water, a set time for test, which is short enough to make delta T small enough to not be affected by ambient losses. He might also cut that water volume way down for bigger deltas over shorter tests. He could just have two stand pipes on either end, vinyl hose, flush it from the room temp bucket before every test for super fast test reloads. I'm just an old engineer trying to learn beekeeping, and if I recall, you are trying to generate eddy currents (think tiny little tornadoes) inside metal, more better than last time. Certainly there are specialists, but for us mortals, that's Art, or Voodoo (depending on pay and culture). You need a rig that allows a lot of trial and error. It's going to be an iterative approach. By the way, do you have those travel toys over there, a face with metal filings and a little magnet pen to give the fellow a mustache? If so, you might hold him up to your rig and see what your magnetic field actually looks like. Maybe it's not what you think, or where you think, or maybe it needs some iron laminations to focus it, or spinning magnet disks in each side of the heater, et cetera.
The motive force in a convectiom circuit is gravity. The warm water has a lower density than the cold. This makes it lighter in comparrison. Gravity then pulls the heavy cold side down which lifts the lighter warm side. Much like a seesaw. The initial surge of heat is due to the fact that the water isnt flowing. So more energy is passed to the stationery water, once it starts to flow however each pass through the heat and only pick up so much of the energy. Think a roundabout, its easy to give that first big spin but actually harder to keep putting that same energy in to make it go faster, you end up with a maximum energy transfer.
To improve energy transfer you need more water in contact with the copper, the water in the middle of the pipe is doing nothing, and you need more copper closer to the magnets. Either a rectangular pipe or perhaps 3 pieces of 10mm side by side would work
ruclips.net/video/GVR8OS_GzMU/видео.htmlsi=IZKu8Kf6aPU7T4Wx gives an idea of what is happening inside the pipe.
Another fantastic video that gets my imagination going! That big disk, all varnished and shiny makes me happy. Haha.
I don't have much to say that a dozen other commenters haven't already. Well... maybe for a nice smooth pipe bend, you can try a technique used to bend brass tubing for instruments.
To avoid kinks in the tubing, cap one end and fill it with water, then freeze the water into ice. While it's frozen, bend the pipe to keep its circumference even. After it melts, left with a nice curved, round tube.
Although, the radius on this pipe seems like it'd be fine using a roller bender without issue. 😅
Amazing work, as always.
Maybe a wind deflector to shield the element?
That looks... horrifyingly safe. It's great. I'm pretty sure the best bet for increasing heat is going to be decreasing the gap between the pipe and the magnets, or increasing the length of the area in contact. It's a bit hard to tell, but it looks like the pipe and magnets are a cm apart at closest, but you really want them to be uncomfortably close to capture as much of the flux as possible- motors seem like they're sub mm, but I figure you'd do fine at 2-4mm. If you could flatten the copper pipe so that more of it's closer to the magnets that might help, though probably better would be getting a thin flat copper sheet/plate and soldering it to the pipe.
Induction stoves use electromagnets, maybe that would work better.
An excellent, though basic, example of induction heating. This was great! Thanks for sharing!
Rotation to heat - just use a shorted out electric motor. There are cheap watercooled car alternators which do just this to help warming up the car faster. You will get the bearings and pulley for free and it will even be possible to regulate power by shorting the three phase wires in different ways. The trick which makes the alternator smaller for the same power is it having a closed magnetic loop with small air gap which your arangement does lack.
I think the issue with that is the RPM needs to be much higher than what he has here with the large diameter wheel
@@Your_Friend_Corey use a big pulley on the windmill shaft. Otherwise there are real Megawatt wind turbines with a directly driven slow generator
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff*
For insulation, buy "pool noodles" & cut length-wise along one side of them (or if you can just disassemble the system & "sleeve" the noodles onto the pipes?, no cutting needed).
Quite cheap to buy, decent insulation.
Thanks!
Very interesting The wife has an induction cook stove but she said I can’t take it apart to learn its secrets . Thanks
You can get a plug-in countertop one to take apart for maybe sixty usd or so.
What would happen if you put the wheel next to an old cast iron radiator?
What would happen if you put 2 full loops of copper over the magnets?
What would happen if there were 2 rows of magnets? (The same work spinning, but twice the heat? ) Just love the messing around and finding out as we go!
Next to an old cast iron radiator? It would slowly start to heat it up.
Two full loops of copper over the magnets? It would heat up but put more drag on the wheel slowing it down (or requiring more energy to keep it at the same speed).
Two rows of magnets? You'd get twice the magnetic power but also double the force trying to slow the wheel down, a bit like pressing your foot on a car's brake pedal twice as hard - sure you get more heat in the brake pads but the car stops more quickly as well.
I think this is a brilliant idea. I want to test something like this myself now. I have a windmill at my house. It's simply for decoration now but it used to be used for pumping water. I think you should do some tests on how much resistance there is for different lengths of pipe. Can you go around the entire circumference of the circle? Or would that require too much torque to keep it spinning? Also what is the difference between copper pipe and aluminum pipe? Definitely insulate everything.
Oh by the way, you don’t need magnets and conductors to heat water - you can just spin the water with paddles and it’ll heat up due to friction - this is actually exactly how the heat capacity of water was first calculated as part of a big series of work by Joule
Well, that would leave you with scrambled eggs, not fried...
Tips, well, the first thing my 6 year old daughter said was that you could also boil the egg in the bucket, once the water heats up enough. 😜
My thoughts: the pipe is probably not optimal to pick up the induction, and it probably isn't the most optimal heat exchanger to get the heat from metal to water.
I understand the simplicity and charm of passive circulation, but since this will be driven by a windmill, why not also use a pump for circulation. Heat transfer is more efficient with a bigger temperature difference, so it would probably help efficiency to increase the flow rate.
You can stuff copper wool in the pipes to heat the water better
Ooh! Great idea!
And make turbulance in pipe and water in the midle of pipe can heat up too plus more surface area but reduce flow
how laptop cooling pipes work. sintered for internal porosity. thanks for sharing the low budget version though- your version normal hobbyists can make.
Have you tried running a steel pipe through the copper pipe?
As the copper should spread the heat evenly though said pipe
However, the copper should be snug to the steel pipe for noticeable results.
Choose a non rust like 316 or 304 stainless steel.
Also look at your induction field as any pipe outside it won’t heat the water either.
🎉loving your work🍻
If there's a lot of inertia stopping he disc from spinning, does that mean the windmill will only be able to spin it on very windy days? On days with moderate wind you might have to go out and get it going by hand maybe?
I was wondering that too. I suppose some sort of ratcheting mechanism might be useful, so the windmill can add energy into the wheel without having the wheel turn the windmill when the wind is variable. If that makes sense.
I've seen some wind charts of his area, he has a lot of wind and very variable as well. I expect there will be some moments where the mill stalls, but there will also be gusts of wind to jolt it in action again. And with the size of windmill he is building, I think he will already generate quite a lot of energy.
Gym goers could spin wheel
Excellent idea! I enjoy watching your thought processes. The only improvement I can think of, aside from the ones you’ve already considered, is allowing the magnets to go through completely giving you double the surface area for your magnetic induction, bending the pipe so it goes completely around the circle of magnets. Then, turn the pipe under have the pipe go back around and then back out. This way, you would use both sides of the magnet and have the pipe the maximum amount of induction heating for the amount of magnets you have. Just my two cents I hope it makes sense completely around the top and the bottom.
I know this project is kind of just fiddling about. So feel free to ignore this and the slightly factious comment.
Now there is another type of system that simplifies where the inductor placement and design. If you take the magnets and arrange them along a rotating spinning shaft you can concentrate the magnetic flux in a very small area. This is wonderful for simplifying the mechanical size and controlling rotor speeds considerably.
Now if you surround this magnetic field with loops of wire, you can transfer the magnetic flux to a coil a surprising distance away. If you size the other coil to the side and shape of the pot/pan you are using you can induce the same energy. And surprisingly the efficiency of the entire system will be no different from using the mechanical linkage to the rotor of magnets.
(I.e. you have essentially made an electric generator in a rather inefficient configuration. Many of the early electric experiments did use large flywheels of rotating disks of permanent magnets. The only change in efficiency for using wire to connect it to a remote coil is the resistance and length of then wire. Which would probably cancel out the inefficiency in the large flywheels design. There is no difference in the transfer of mechanical energy to electrical vs magnetic flux…it’s essentially identical)
_"a rotating spinning shaft"_
Do you mean rotating in two different axis at the same time?
@ nice catch there
This is extremely interesting and I'm very much enjoying the experiment. You asked for suggestions and I had one that I was keeping to myself but at the end of the video you asked for it so here it is.
So far I think everything is wonderful and obviously you're making positive progress. Up to this point I would have liked to seen the magnets installed precisely flush with the surface rather than lifted in different angles.
Not that it would make much difference but in an experiment such as this we can only shoot for the best outcomes in certainly the direction of the magnet could play a part in a negative outcome.
Thanks for letting me comment and thanks for the video!
Hot water is less dense than cold water, this is how Victorian gravity central heating systems ran before electric motors.
If you can put the copper tube closer to the magnets.
That will increase the heating effect exponentially. Also if you can make copper tube more flat it will also increase efficiency.
Good luck with the project 💪🏼
Put the spinning magnets above and below and then spin those magnets in opposite directions and then another wheel of magnets on the outside of those spinning magnets only turn them vertically with a oscillating wheel that will move back and forth along the length of the copper and before you say that could be hard your question was for an idea not how to set it up. LOLSSS
1. Mount magnets with an exposed face on each side of the wheel. Consider casting magnets in epoxy, then milling?
2. Have pipe in a full circle on both sides of the wheel.
3. Balance wheel.
4. Minimize air gap between pipe and wheel.
5. Insulate system.
Love the idea, now I want to do something similar.
I don’t know but if you had a large circle of pipe same size as disk would that work, really enjoy your work, thank you
The best thing you can do for efficiency is two thing balance out the magnet wheel. Vibration and shaking = more input power needed. And anneal the copper before bending it and a cheap set of bending springs will prevent kinking
You will get much better result if you generate electricity and use a heating element in the bucket. It will also be simpler to build with fewer parts.
Where's the fun in that?
Actually this has the potential to be much more efficient. Every time you convert energy to another form you lose efficiency. This only converts kinetic energy to heat. Your method converts kinetic energy to electricity and then to heat. if this is connected by direct shaft to a wind turbine without the use of gears and pullies the maximum amount of kinetic energy is available to convert to heat. The variable is what materials to use convert to heat and conduct it into the water.
@@TomsBackyardWorkshop The complexity of the build using direct heating and the tolerances needed makes the system a lot less efficient.
How do you generate electricity?
@@TomsBackyardWorkshop But efficiency is lost in the form of waste energy, aka heat. which is what he wants!
You will capture much more energy if you make a complete circle of your 3/4" copper piping, elevating one end slightly, to allow for convection circulation of the water, while insulating all of the copper and tubing associated with it including the collection tank. Hope this helps. Built a number of this type of heaters in my time and won the science fair when I was 12 years old with one. Instead of induction heating, though, I was using solar collection for the heat source. Thanks for posting.
Texas is watching.
Wonderful project! You want to maximize the natural convective flow in the system by maximizing the height difference between the cold leg inlet and hot leg outlet while still keeping the hot leg outlet submerged below the surface of the water outlet. You will start to see increased rate of heat transfer.
Wrap the pipe around the whole thing and insulate it in fiberglass so it won’t build up a static charge. Then the next level of efficiency, you can add additional layers of magnets to the center and bend much narrower pipes into several close bends to maximize contact or use old radiators if you can find them. After that you can add another disk above the pipes and try switching to oil as it will retain heat better. If you can get the heat high enough you can lead the oil into a closed loop with a small pump and an engine heatsink to a water reservoir and a water tank.
I would:
1) Bring the metal much closer to the magnets, maybe stick felt to the bottom of the pipe but it should sit on the disk, friction will be minimal.
2) Another ring of magnets above the metal - but it doesn't need to be a solid disk it only needs to be held to the lower disk, come up and around the pipe. Maybe the pipe should be longer too.
Lots of love
i personally would add more of the heating elements but honestly as a concept this is brilliant
I love your voice man I need you to voice a book so bad it reminds me of Bilbo Baggins reading reading a bedtime story and its comforting.
Yes, what accent is that?
You forgot the back flow preventer, so the water pressure was forcing out the copper both directions. Try opening a coffee pot to examine the parts. Look for the back flow ball.
To make it easier to bend the copper pipe, heat it up with a torch. Once the copper is annealed, it will bend very easily. Also, if you can borrow a hand conduit bender, it would be much easier than the hydraulic bender.
Put them in concentric rings, then run the copper piping in a pattern that maximizes it's length spanning these concentric rings, top and bottom. This way you are not wasting the mechanical energy. You can also put it in a box with a vacuum, this way air friction is eliminated. With improvements you can make your setup an awful lot smaller.
This is both terrifying and brilliant at the same time!! I love the concept you're exploring and even if the mechanism scares the bejeesus out of me, it's fantastic!!
The issue is the magnetic field is not fully enclosing the copper pipe.
You could make it work better with two discs with magnets(in holes) with a square tubing(or flattened copper tubing) in the middle. Also have a soft iron plate(can be segmented into arc) covering two magnets at a time(can also be glued). The magnet poles need to alternate in the same disc as well as the one below. The magets in top disc and bottom disc should lineup with opposite poles to complete the magnetic circuit through pipe. The two discs can be attached together to make them look like a single disc, with spacing in between. In simple terms, it will resemble a diy windmill generator without coils, but copper tubing on the edge. You also need to slide the flattened tube to position, between discs, instead of flipping it from above. Just some suggestions.
I've ran pipe directly into the hot water heater tank like this using solar heating and thermo dynamics the same as you with great results, solar gain would gradually heat the water even on cloudy days hotter than the ambient water temperature because everything was insulated and heated water rises. I would recommend running the top tank higher, 30-50 feet above the heat source allows for greater temperature and pressure differentials. getting an insulated hot water tank and to wrap your exposed pipe with insulated lagging. The magnetic effect should still work through the 1/2 inch or so of foam insulation. Great work, hope you can rig this up with bicycle chains or something to your wind turbine.
Pipe insulation will conserve the heat for better convection flow. a shorter tube might help, not lower than the magnet surface. good science, Thank you
Way Out West. Something great to use for induction heating would be to surround the copper pipe and or copper wire that has the casing still on it with the water you want to heat up some how also keeping it close enough to the magnets to receive the induction. That's all the insulation you need that you already have.("The water it's self").
Use a thick tube on the hot water and a thin tube on the cold one. That's how old boilers work. It was used, at least in Sweden, before everyone had electricity for circulation.
An electric heating element has minimal loses compared to a Drill press, gear reduction, belt, hub/bearing, large wheel. But I applaud you for the efforts and tinkering! Other thing to note is that the direction of the turning wheel should be equal to the direction of the heated fluid, in this video they are opposing.
The final arrangement is to use a water wheel, the drill press is just for experimenting
Thanks, I missed that part..
I was wondering about the hypothetical efficiency of this wheel of magnets versus something like using the wind mill to turn one or more car alternators and then using the current to power a resistive heating element.
I seen some of these concepts on RUclips, but you made it neat.
You are building an awesome machine! Suggestion #1. Strap the probe of a digital oven thermometor to the return (hot) water hose Suggestion #2. Install a tube in your bucket so the return water comes out at the top of the bucket and add more water. This will stop the return water from flowing back to the down stream hose creating a short circuit. You will need to reinforce the hub of you MDF "plywood. Perhaps the center of a tire rim that fits that brake drum would be enough. Oh yeah, have you given any thought to generating electricity on the opposite side of the rotor from the hot water side?
Impressed by his egg flipping skills with that wood spatula
I've been working on something similar, not as large of a spinning disk, with a large coil of 1/2" copper tubing as the non-ferrous heating coil. Rather than a single row of magnets, I arranged two rows of magnetron ring magnets in two rows, the copper coil arranged to go around the entire magnet disk with the entire area of the copper coil exposed to the rotating magnets at a lower RPM. Also, I used a check valve on the cold-water inlet side, and an expansion tank on the heated side with a closed 20-gallon steel tank. A small positive displacement gear motor circulation pump circulates the water back to the beginning point on the heated copper coil. This is closer to what a standard electric water heater would do internally, only with less electric energy. The disk does not need to be helped to begin spinning, other than the start capacitor, and the tank temperature is limited with a single bulb type probe thermostat. It works but I think the slower heating recovery time would take three of these to use in a normal home use scenario providing continuous hot water at around the total heating cost of a standard 40-gallon electric water heater, except this would be continuously heating over the limited recovery time of the standard water heater. - I have noticed the stronger magnets don't require faster motion to do work required. The set temperature I use is 135 degrees F.
Thats a brilliant concept. My home is in a VERY windy area, particularly during the winter. I could utilize something like this to help heat my house and shops. Its so windy commercial windmills can’t be built. I imagine some small windmills on a dodge gear box might be practical!
A wind powered heat pump can give you about twice the heat for the same wind.
Magnetic induction is such a fascinating thing, and so baffling even after 200 years of it. Thank you, Michael Faraday.
I recently used magnetic induction for my health. Have you heard of Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation? There is a rabbt hole to fall into if you ever get a chance between all your busy projects.
Thanks, Tim, for making science fun!
Best thing I can think of for improvements is to increase the surface area exposed to the highest flux fields closest to the magnets. Best of luck.
Nice work. Totally looks like something I would do (and my wife would scratch her head at). Here are my suggestions... have your "heater" pipe maybe do a complete loop around the perimeter of the wheel for full-contact with flux-field. Shorten all the rest of the plumbing as much as possible, the extreme height difference isn't required for this type of hydrothermal "pumping" action. And clearly, insulate all plumbing, even the top of the "heater" pipe.
Congratulations Dr. Gauss. 🧑🔬You have stirred the interest of over 500 commenters, many of whom are fully engaged as indicated by their constructive contributions. I have nothing to add except that you might consider wearing a flack jacket or ballistic vest, should that rotating wheel pick up a loose piece of metal or a tool and 'centrificate' it in your direction. 🙂
I would suggest getting better concentricity on your large wheel by mounting it on the rotational spinning system after cutting, then using wood lathe tools to cut the outside diameter into exact roundness with it spinning at a good RPM. This would reduce wobbling and improve balance so there's less wear and risk for breakage over time on the bearings. The insulation on the pipes was also something that came immediately to mind due to thermal dissipation as the water travels through the pipes.
An alternative would be to increase the RPM on your induction motor and heat the pipe hotter, but that seems contrary to the point of increasing the diameter of the wheel. An alternative would be to build a second wheel with magnets in opposite configuration (so they don't attract to the other wheel) and putting it with a spacer above the other wheel and therefore the pipe you're trying to heat - so you'd have an induction wheel above and below the pipe to increase the thermal induction rate being imparted into the pipe without having to greatly modify the overall design. That would improve heating speed and maximum temperature without an RPM increase, but would also increase cost and effort to make an entire second wheel.
It could also introduce more wobbling or vibration if the roundness and concentricity aren't balanced between both wheel plates and their mounts, but could be offset by cutting them both to be exactly round with the previously mentioned technique or by using weight offsets opposite of the unbalanced section of wheel - a technique used with car and bike wheels with attached small metal weights. Obviously, don't use ferrous metals for balancing weights on a wheel that's got a ton of magnets, and put the counterbalance weights on the outer top and bottom of the wheels to keep them from attracting the other wheel's magnets. lmao
A genius idea overall you've got here. I'm definitely going to need to use a similar idea for something in the future. Thank you for the video and idea!
No, that's all right. The proof on concept is done. Your next step is to have the water heat exchange pipe extended over the circumference of the wheel, so you can then effectively multiply your existing one foot or so of heated pipe. Secondly, the tolerances and inverse square law of electromagnetism. By halving the distance between the pipe and magnets you'll increase the intensity of the field 4 times. Good work! 👍
i absolutely adore watching your projects, keep up the good work!
Hi. great work. I did something like that years ago. I learned your copper tube should be flat and it most almost touch the wheel. I used a bench grinder and a smaller wheel. good luck my man.
It is on You tube
You may have some issues with gravity if you speed up! I love the work and the joy of watching your efforts!
If possible try smaller pipe 1/4 or 3/8, then rap around the 3 time or so. Make sure to get the pipe as close to the magnets as possible. Also I’m was thinking 400hz or higher. Just some ideas that ran through my mind while watching your video. I love your project, keep it going.
Very cool! I'm sure you're planning it already once you have things more settled, but using the full circumference of the disc instead of a small section should get you waaaaaay more heat.
Brilliant Tim! Such exciting progress:)
As mentioned below, a complete circle of copper tubing or more in a smaller diameter to make the circle trip more than once? Maybe add a small amount of preheated water back into the feed line,...aka; pre-heater. Steam generation uses waste heat that way. Fascinating project here. Love this stuff. 👍👍
Wrap the pipes with pool noodles. They fit good and with stand the heat. Or simple spray foam high temp. But the pipes will be forever covered in spary foam.
Great work Tim! I read many of the comments and everything I thought of was covered so no more from me. Did you plant your garlic yet? I wanted to have mine in by now, but it has been unseasonably warm so I have not felt pressured to get it done. Cheers!
What you need is a radiator type arrangement. A "simple" version could be to bend thin copper pipe into a "u" shape so that it sits on both sides of the rim, hugging the wheel. This would expose the pipe to both sides of the magnet effectively doubling your electron movement within the metal. If you could bend the pipe back and forth, you could effectively cover the whole wheel, though I'm not sure how this might affect the flow of water.