One of the first Catholic sources I ever read was St. Ignatius, absolutely blew my mind. I always assumed the early church was a lot like me. I couldn’t fathom that the early Church was in fact, very very Catholic. RCIA starts in September for me.
He says over and again listen to your bishops, he never says listen to the Pope. He tells the Romans to not obstruct his martydom and is very stern with them. It is almost as though he doesn't know there is a single Bishop of Rome with universal jurisdiction...
@@clivejungle6999 “You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” (ibid., 3:1). “Not as Peter and Paul do I command ye.” (Epistle to the Roman Church).
I liked and subscribed. Keep up the good work. Gavin works very hard wrenching words and short phrases out of context to reinterpret them or ignoring them that cannot be.
@mikelopez8564. This is the kind of claim that really needs to be clearly demonstrated…or deleted. Personally, I don’t think you can come anywhere close to doing that. But hey, give it a try! Then, when you inevitably fail, eat some humble pie. It’ll be ever so good for you. 😋
@@HannahClapham There are some others who I believe have done this. They have shown that Dr. Ortlund takes things out of context to support his opinions. Also, that he misrepresents other's opinions and they have come out and said such. "Patristic Pillars" has done a lot of this legwork showing the intellectual dishonesty of Dr. Ortlund.
@hirakisk1973. Oh, pish-tosh! Catholics and Protestants are constantly taking past one another! I’ve yet to read a single Catholic pundit that I felt didn’t misrepresent Protestantism! Heck, even the likes of Erick Ybarra and Matt Fradd-a couple of the nicest, most honest guys on the planet-make inexcusable mistakes…which I then go ahead and excuse, nonetheless. You think Gavin is dishonest, you’re out of your ever-living mind! I really don’t like the guy, but I listened to a bit of William Albrecht’s tirade for your sake. His main accusation was that Gavin is not an expert on the Dormition/Assumption. Probably true. He may well have made some mistakes. Oh, no! Not that! Let’s go ahead and paint him as the devil, no less! How about you all just curbing the hate a little bit? It gets old.
My problem with the accusation towards protestantism is that most protestants believe a relatively consistent body of belief and differ most on the way in which things are practiced and minor church traditions, which are not issues of salvation. So to say "protestants have thousands of denominations" is not accurate when they're so similar to each other. You might as well say that each member of a family tree are not family but instead a new species because they're not genetically identical.
Protestants disagree on fundamentals like the nature of the Eucharist and baptism. Being similar to each other also doesn't mean they're correct. They abandoned many historic practices that were always practiced by Christians all around the world.
@@TheologyFellow yes so in the old use of cult you could refer to the cult of St Francis of Assisi and you would just be talking about people who venerate him without any real negative connotation
12:10 he is referring to the practice of offering communion under only one species (only offering the Bread and not the wine to the laity) not to the practice of denying communion to people
Same conclusion (technically). However, tho the church says He is in both means, most parishes only do bread - I don’t agree with this but I am who I am lol
@@TheologyFellowyeah my parish only offers the Eucharist during flu season and not the blood/wine so maybe they with held the wine back then because abuses kept happening? Which Jesus is fully present in the bread and wine even separately. That’s why we can adore Jesus in adoration without the cup present. Also you got a new sub 👍🏻
I can’t believe I wasted time going through this. Is this guy even catechized? Has he been through RCIA? It doesn’t sound like it. Here’s the depth and breadth of his apologetic: That’s false. That’s completely false! (I’m sorry, but that’s an unsubstantiated assertion. It’s just an assertion.) I’ve read the Didache. I’ve read Ignatius of Antioch. They don’t look Catholic in the slightest little bit. You’re seeing what you want to see. You didn’t become Catholic by reading the fathers. That’s like saying you became Jewish by reading the Old Testament! You’re not being logical. You’re not being historical.
That's...an interesting take. What part of this isn't catholic? On the Eucharist: "I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink, I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible." (Letter to the Romans, 7) On the Hierarchical Structure of the Church: "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8) On the Unity of the Church: "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8) On Obedience to the Bishop: "It is fitting, then, not only to be called Christians but to be so in reality; as some indeed give one the title of bishop, but do all things without him. Such men appear to me to be devoid of a good conscience, seeing that they are not steadfastly gathered together according to the commandment." (Letter to the Magnesians, 4) On the Importance of the Eucharist: "Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons." (Letter to the Philadelphians, 4)
@@TheologyFellow. What part of it isn’t (magisterially) Protestant? There are plenty of things that Catholicism (and for that matter Eastern Orthodoxy) has in common with all of Christendom. What we don’t have in the Apostolic Fathers is a single instance of a tenet or a practice that is distinctively Catholic. Not. A. Single. One.
@@HannahClapham in the apostolic churches the hieracrchy of bishop, priest, deacaon is present universally. in protestantism universally you don't have that. some protestants do some don't and that's a problem. ignatius also says without that hierarchy there is no church. anything that protestants have that other apostolic churches have is only because protestants took it from catholicism when they left. there are quotes that are distinctly catholic iranaus says that rome because of its superior origin being founded by peter and paul all the faithful in her have maintained apostolic traition. cyprian of carthage says "On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”
This endless debate between Protestant and Catholic has led my wife right out of the Christian faith. Nice job guys. I'm kinda wondering if anybody knows what they're talking about myself. Everybody has a video with a debunking video right behind it all with scripture to back up whatever the stance is. You are literally killing the faith of new believers. Thanks for that
@@robbiechambers1036 you’re painting in the most bizzare broad strokes You just equated this one argument to some random status of the church which is ever growing and alive and well. Robbie, baby… whats really going on
Yes, but at the moment he is kind of the final line for a Protestant before going Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. I certainly got a fair number of his videos from concerned family members.
@@mamaliamalak7825 really? I always viewed him as the final bullwork before Baptist/Evangelicals move on to the more scripturally accurate Magisterial high church Protestant denominations
@@Godfrey118 In my experience as someone raised evangelical, the current mindset is that they are pretty chill as long as you stay in the Protestant side, the 'invisible church' doctrine is very widespread (expectations are for the fringe side such as Charismatics or Seventh Day Adventists). My family at one point almost even went Lutheran due to the small selection of churches in a town we moved to. Though, eyebrows do start to raise if someone goes Anglican, that starts to look too 'Catholic'. The reason he is a final bullwork before Catholics and Orthodox has a lot to do with the Church Fathers. When someone like myself learns about the Church Fathers and starts reading them (in particular St. Ignatius of Antioch), you enter a crises seeing the early Church wasn't what you were taught it was. Dr. Ortlund offers a way to rationalize them without having to leave the tradition you were raised in.
@mamaliamalak7825 I have an entire playlist of responses to Gavin Ortlund on my channel. If you're so inclined, I'd invite you to check them out and if you find them helpful, send them to your Protestant relatives when they send you Dr. Ortlund's vids
One of the first Catholic sources I ever read was St. Ignatius, absolutely blew my mind.
I always assumed the early church was a lot like me. I couldn’t fathom that the early Church was in fact, very very Catholic. RCIA starts in September for me.
POW!
He says over and again listen to your bishops, he never says listen to the Pope. He tells the Romans to not obstruct his martydom and is very stern with them. It is almost as though he doesn't know there is a single Bishop of Rome with universal jurisdiction...
@@clivejungle6999 “You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” (ibid., 3:1).
“Not as Peter and Paul do I command ye.” (Epistle to the Roman Church).
@@clivejungle6999 Who was the bishop of rome of his time? do you know?
@@Logan_Manhart The verbs for 'envy' and 'taught' are both in the second person plural in the Greek...
I liked and subscribed. Keep up the good work.
Gavin works very hard wrenching words and short phrases out of context to reinterpret them or ignoring them that cannot be.
Thank you for the encouragement!
@mikelopez8564. This is the kind of claim that really needs to be clearly demonstrated…or deleted. Personally, I don’t think you can come anywhere close to doing that. But hey, give it a try! Then, when you inevitably fail, eat some humble pie. It’ll be ever so good for you. 😋
@@HannahClapham There are some others who I believe have done this. They have shown that Dr. Ortlund takes things out of context to support his opinions. Also, that he misrepresents other's opinions and they have come out and said such. "Patristic Pillars" has done a lot of this legwork showing the intellectual dishonesty of Dr. Ortlund.
@hirakisk1973. Oh, pish-tosh! Catholics and Protestants are constantly taking past one another! I’ve yet to read a single Catholic pundit that I felt didn’t misrepresent Protestantism! Heck, even the likes of Erick Ybarra and Matt Fradd-a couple of the nicest, most honest guys on the planet-make inexcusable mistakes…which I then go ahead and excuse, nonetheless. You think Gavin is dishonest, you’re out of your ever-living mind!
I really don’t like the guy, but I listened to a bit of William Albrecht’s tirade for your sake. His main accusation was that Gavin is not an expert on the Dormition/Assumption. Probably true. He may well have made some mistakes. Oh, no! Not that! Let’s go ahead and paint him as the devil, no less!
How about you all just curbing the hate a little bit? It gets old.
Will be in OCIA soon and, God willing, confirmed come Easter. Can’t wait 😇🙏
As an Anglican I like think we got it right. I’ve studied other denominations and faiths, we seem pretty moderate and are well studied on scripture
@@mercer1995 you’re def closer than most!
My problem with the accusation towards protestantism is that most protestants believe a relatively consistent body of belief and differ most on the way in which things are practiced and minor church traditions, which are not issues of salvation. So to say "protestants have thousands of denominations" is not accurate when they're so similar to each other. You might as well say that each member of a family tree are not family but instead a new species because they're not genetically identical.
So is Protestantism then defined by what the majority believe? Is the individual Protestant obligated to follow the majority?
Protestants disagree on fundamentals like the nature of the Eucharist and baptism. Being similar to each other also doesn't mean they're correct. They abandoned many historic practices that were always practiced by Christians all around the world.
10:54 I think he is using “cult” in the archaic sense which just means in a religious context
@@emiliobazzarelli4270 hard to say that when the comparison is another religious context
@@TheologyFellow yes so in the old use of cult you could refer to the cult of St Francis of Assisi and you would just be talking about people who venerate him without any real negative connotation
🎉
12:10 he is referring to the practice of offering communion under only one species (only offering the Bread and not the wine to the laity) not to the practice of denying communion to people
Same conclusion (technically). However, tho the church says He is in both means, most parishes only do bread - I don’t agree with this but I am who I am lol
@@TheologyFellowyeah my parish only offers the Eucharist during flu season and not the blood/wine so maybe they with held the wine back then because abuses kept happening?
Which Jesus is fully present in the bread and wine even separately. That’s why we can adore Jesus in adoration without the cup present.
Also you got a new sub 👍🏻
I can’t believe I wasted time going through this. Is this guy even catechized? Has he been through RCIA? It doesn’t sound like it.
Here’s the depth and breadth of his apologetic:
That’s false. That’s completely false! (I’m sorry, but that’s an unsubstantiated assertion. It’s just an assertion.)
I’ve read the Didache. I’ve read Ignatius of Antioch. They don’t look Catholic in the slightest little bit. You’re seeing what you want to see. You didn’t become Catholic by reading the fathers. That’s like saying you became Jewish by reading the Old Testament! You’re not being logical. You’re not being historical.
That's...an interesting take. What part of this isn't catholic?
On the Eucharist:
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink, I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible." (Letter to the Romans, 7)
On the Hierarchical Structure of the Church:
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8)
On the Unity of the Church:
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8)
On Obedience to the Bishop:
"It is fitting, then, not only to be called Christians but to be so in reality; as some indeed give one the title of bishop, but do all things without him. Such men appear to me to be devoid of a good conscience, seeing that they are not steadfastly gathered together according to the commandment." (Letter to the Magnesians, 4)
On the Importance of the Eucharist:
"Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons." (Letter to the Philadelphians, 4)
Ignatius' entire layout of church authority it what you find in catholicism, not in protestantism.
@@TheologyFellow. Says who?
@@TheologyFellow. What part of it isn’t (magisterially) Protestant? There are plenty of things that Catholicism (and for that matter Eastern Orthodoxy) has in common with all of Christendom.
What we don’t have in the Apostolic Fathers is a single instance of a tenet or a practice that is distinctively Catholic. Not. A. Single. One.
@@HannahClapham in the apostolic churches the hieracrchy of bishop, priest, deacaon is present universally. in protestantism universally you don't have that. some protestants do some don't and that's a problem. ignatius also says without that hierarchy there is no church.
anything that protestants have that other apostolic churches have is only because protestants took it from catholicism when they left. there are quotes that are distinctly catholic iranaus says that rome because of its superior origin being founded by peter and paul all the faithful in her have maintained apostolic traition. cyprian of carthage says "On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”
The thumbnail kind of looks like Napoleon lol
This endless debate between Protestant and Catholic has led my wife right out of the Christian faith. Nice job guys. I'm kinda wondering if anybody knows what they're talking about myself. Everybody has a video with a debunking video right behind it all with scripture to back up whatever the stance is. You are literally killing the faith of new believers. Thanks for that
Imagine giving up God because of RUclips videos...
You dont have to get involved, just ignore and move on.
Killing the faith? That's a broad brush dude.
@@TheologyFellow continue your age old quarrel then. seems to be doing wonders for the church
@@robbiechambers1036 you’re painting in the most bizzare broad strokes
You just equated this one argument to some random status of the church which is ever growing and alive and well.
Robbie, baby… whats really going on
@@TheologyFellow Christianity is dying in the west. You tell me what's really going on.
Dr. Ortlund is overrated as a Protestant Apologist
Yes, but at the moment he is kind of the final line for a Protestant before going Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. I certainly got a fair number of his videos from concerned family members.
@@mamaliamalak7825 really? I always viewed him as the final bullwork before Baptist/Evangelicals move on to the more scripturally accurate Magisterial high church Protestant denominations
@@Godfrey118 In my experience as someone raised evangelical, the current mindset is that they are pretty chill as long as you stay in the Protestant side, the 'invisible church' doctrine is very widespread (expectations are for the fringe side such as Charismatics or Seventh Day Adventists). My family at one point almost even went Lutheran due to the small selection of churches in a town we moved to. Though, eyebrows do start to raise if someone goes Anglican, that starts to look too 'Catholic'.
The reason he is a final bullwork before Catholics and Orthodox has a lot to do with the Church Fathers. When someone like myself learns about the Church Fathers and starts reading them (in particular St. Ignatius of Antioch), you enter a crises seeing the early Church wasn't what you were taught it was. Dr. Ortlund offers a way to rationalize them without having to leave the tradition you were raised in.
@Godfrey118 I would tend to agree with you. He's given far more credit for being charitable and open minded than he deserves
@mamaliamalak7825 I have an entire playlist of responses to Gavin Ortlund on my channel. If you're so inclined, I'd invite you to check them out and if you find them helpful, send them to your Protestant relatives when they send you Dr. Ortlund's vids