Garrett vs BorgWarner in-depth comparison Part1
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2024
- One of the most common questions i have been asked over the years is "which turbo is the best to use?" and secondly "which turbo would you personally use if the build was your own?" -- The turbocharger is one of the most expensive components on any build, and an extremely technical product aswell. Making the right choice in terms of which frame size turbo with which turbine housing AR is tough enough, let alone which brand better suits my build. We delve into the FACTS about the two brands Garrett and BorgWarner - we compare each separate part inside both turbo brands and share this with you.
We understand there are die hard Garrett fans and Die Hard BorgWarner fans - like everything, there will always be fans on both sides - this video is there to hopefully educate those on the internal designs and pro's and con's of each of these two OEM manufacturers products.
We will NO be covering ALL frame sizes nor designs, we will only go onto the medium frame size turbos only. Enjoy. 
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My choice was Borg Warner. This is largely because Borg still offers a current and modern turbocharger that serves T3 housings with IWG. Garrett as of the G series only seems to offer V-band, T4 and T25 housings with IWG. I had no idea Borg warner internals were that different. Just by camparing the turbine blades and the bearing cartridges one can see Borg Warner is the superior product.
Pretty sure they make my transfer case
@@georgeschnakenberg7808 Most of the AWD systems on the VAG group is BorgWarner, and the T5 trannies etc
Love your passion for teaching and informing people of everything about Turbos. Please keep up the good work and keep the info coming. Waiting patiently for my fix.....(part 2)
Thanks Jason, we glad to see that our viewers enjoy watching these videos as much as we enjoy making these videos for you. More to come soon.
100% satisfied with my EFR-7163! I made 473hp/ 435tq (e30 + M1 fuel) on a HONDA ACCORD 2.0T! Also, the second in the U.S. to run an 11 second 1/4 mile..... Thank you for making vids like this.
Thank you for sharing this - and i have to say as old Hanibal from the A-team usually says, "I love it when a plan comes together!" Well done, nice power - enjoy the setup!
Absolutely love the content detail. Honestly the best I love watching and learning through your videos.
Thanks Floyd - much appreciate the compliment. Glad you taking something away from the videos.
So glad to have found this channel just as I began my quest to gain deeper turbo knowledge than the average enthusiast has. I was shocked by the weight difference of the EFR and GT turbine wheels. I suspect the larger diameter, full backplate, and shorter height have a lot to do with the max flow potential and weight differences. Off to watch part 2 now!
Thanks for the feedback buddy - much appreciate your comments. The flow capabilities and backpressure with the EFR design turbine far exceeds the Garrett model especially the older antiquated design. The newer G-series setup is not really that new, alot of the design comes from the old TR30R rally spec turbos, blade numbers and shape similarity etc.....
The weight saving on the EFR is due to the material choice - Gamma-TI (titanium aluminide) this is something only EFR have managed to get right in the turbo realm - and it works wonderfully!
Loving it. My first memories are of pulling things apart. Thanks for the pull apart video.
Thank you for watching - glad you enjoyed it.
Love these in depth break downs
Love south African content. All business, no nonsense.
Thank you Fred - appreciate your comment sir.
Best explanation from specialist!!! Big tumb and i like so much your videos!!!👍👍👍👍
Thank you Atanas - glad you learning.
Yes the videos are of great value and we do learn a lot just from a point of general car enthusiasts ❤️ thank you
Happy to hear this - glad we can be of value to you guys.
I’ve been thinking of the efr 7163 Apr kit for a while now I understand why it’s a good choice,love your knowledge and honesty!
Thank you Lou - the 7163 is untouchable frame size for fame size - its literally that good.
Great video really enjoyed this a lot of really good comparisons and knowledge it’s been very helpful thank you
Glad you enjoyed the video.
Once again, great info! Keep up the good job
Thank you for the compliment!
Love these vids, keep em coming!
Thank you Tom.
Love the videos! Can’t wait to see part two. Pending my purchase of a turbo for my rb26 aiming for 750hp
Thank you George - here is part2 :- ruclips.net/video/vPbe8wh8CF8/видео.html
Go for a s300 or check out mamba’s gtx35’s they’ll do it easy. Avoiding Garrett, overpriced and inferior to both comparatively. Even Hypergear australia has better options that bolt straight onto the factory rb manifolds lol… have a look at the atr45 specialty, won’t likely hit your 750 but will be able to run close and be nuts on response as they’ve hit 360kw on factory bottom end rb25 neo engines using 98 premium unleaded
Man! Wow didn’t think there would be such a difference between the efr series and the g- series. Was very impressed with the ball bearing asembly on the efr. Even the g series looks chinease besides it. Can’t wait for part 2
Thanks for the comment - Im glad you learnt something Jaime. :-)
There are ALOT of things that i will be sharing about the two brands that most people dont know about, which reflect on the product quality and reliability making the choice of product that much more of an educated process instead of going with other peoples opinions.
Awesome video! Very informative, cant wait for part 2. Im planning to go with your advice and get the EFR 7670 for my k24a2 swapped MR2. I just need so save up some money because i splurged on a quaife LSD.
Thanks for the comment - you wont be sorry - the 7670 is a loaded gun
Very informative and well presented. 👍🖐🏁🏁🏁
Thanks buddy
@@TurboDirectSA a great pleasure, thank you. 👍🏁
Bet, that your choice will be Borg Warner! ;)
Great info. Thanks
Thank you sir
Please do one about the Xona s series turbos. I had a Borg Warner 8374EFR twin scroll on my 2004 sti dual ewg, 4 port boost solenoid with 3lb wg springs. Spooled early and ramped up fast on AEM series 2 stand alone ecu, made 600hp 597 ft lbs, today Im scheduled for a tune on my 2018 Honda Type R, sleeved forged block, P&P head flowing 300cfm, Rampage g30-770 kit turbo mounted directly on the single port headafold with a very short vband manifold adapter, 4 port solnoid, 3lb wg spring in a Turbosmart 45mm Hypergate, .82 a/r housing, port injection, ID1700, surge tank feeding di and port injection, dedicated seperate fuel pressure regulators, one for di the other for port injection, Motec m142 Vitune version. Going to be tuned boost by gear for traction in each gear. Curious how early the turbo will spool and how fast it ramps up after my dyno tune session this Wednesday.
Awesome technical break down on all of the details. I went with your advice and got the 8474 for my FA20DIT build.... shootin' for the moon!!!!!! Waiting for part2 :D
Thank you buddy - you wont be sorry - wait and see.
@@TurboDirectSA Okay I am having crazy ideas for my build.... my build is already crazy, but...I just want to pick your brain and thoughts. What do you think about a compound turbo setup and adding a 6258/6758/7163 in the mix? I bought a nitrous setup, but have been delving into this more and more...seems right up my alley, lol.
@@mrfumetsu Why do you want to go compound? There is a specific place for a compound turbo setup - the most common is if you are trying to achieve a high HP number that a single turbo will not achieve inside of the engines ability to spool it up - e.g if you want to make 2000HP from a 1800cc engine, no single turbo will make this power that the engine will be able to spool up. (not unless the engine can rev to 15000-18000rpm. So you use a compound turbo setup for this application..... its complicated and takes some nerve setting up, but always remember that the smaller turbo needs to be bullet proof as it will be rotating the fastest.
@@TurboDirectSA to fill in the lower end is more what i was trying to do.
if i could make 600-650whp but have the entire bottom end filled in, that would be awesome. i saw a video on youtube on a compound turbo subaru with 800hp. there is another compound turbo s2000 i saw too, and he posted dyno graph comparison and it was night and day difference... yeah i have read about all of the complications, but i'm a fabricator/engineer. multiple wastegate controls, multiple vacuum lines/various sources...etc. I could read enough diesel forums/other setups to figure it out on the first go. Would try to contact the same tuner that did the other Subaru. I have the 8474... i have an efr7670 also, but not sure if that would be too big or if it would spool up way faster and be amazing. I can probably return my nitrous stuff and get full money back or lose on shipping... would easily pay for the materials to fabricate and extra boost controller/wastegate, etc. i just want an all around ripper and don't want to get stomped on by v8s/v10s which is why i got the nitrous with all the fixings. i have (1) turbospeed gauge for efr.
Fantastic. Thanks 👍🖐🏁🏁🏁
Always in! Let’s Go!!
Enjoy the ride
Great video! Which one sounds better?
Good to see this 😅 thanks
So the Borg with the stronger thrust assembly would theoretically be better than the Garrett (Even the new G series) for someone who wants to run no BOV for maximum theatrical flamboyance? Also, I assume your next vid goes over the differences in the turbine and compressor wheels, more. Though I will say that having a 75-gram lighter wheel for the same flow capability is wild, already... I really hope you go over the new G series vs the Borgs and not just the old GTX stuff...
Thank you sir !
Absolute pleasure.
I've ran a gtx3076 and then the g30 770 .82 on my rb25det neo in my R34. Looking at the BW series to feed my built motor for pump gas wanting a responsive street application! Currently making 465hp atw. What efr turbocharger should i be looking at? Changing due to the g30 siezing up from a bad oil feed line. Was at 26psi at the time .82 rear housing t3 to vband. Spool was at 4200rpm-ish
i m so proud of my EFR7163
On the Garrett g series center cartridge it seems they adopted the double piston ring seal on each side of the cartridge that is on the Borg Warner efr series which helps seal the turbo oil seal from seeping oil through. Definitely over built for F1 hence “engineered for racing” which the EFR center cartridge is substantially larger.
Yes, something BorgWarner have had in their designs since 2010 already.
You taught this American truck doctor something!
Thank you Michael for your comment - glad we could contribute.
Borg for the win
Back in the day, I had a 04 SRT-4 with a GT3076R that made exactly 525who 498wtq on 93 pump. That thing hit hard when boost came in. Now, I have a NISMO 370Z and I can’t decide between single or twin setup, and Garrett, Comp, or Xonarotor turbos.
Neither -- i would opt for the BORG if it were my project, or one of our turbochargers, for the money nothing will compete apples with apples.
Correct me if im wrong but i dont see both bearing cartridge being preloaded by spring (hence angular contact bearing) are these just deep groove bearings? In my early days playing with turbos, i notice both nissan turbos off the rb(ceramic turbine wheel) and ihi had them
Thanks for the comment Conrad, this is a full compliment angular contact bearing with a single outer race and two separate directional inner races with cages and balls. Same bearing design as the Garrett unit uses.
The aluminum center section is a big plus for the Borg-Warner.
I say as always: do a same-engine head-to-head comparison between two near-identical turbos with time-to-boost, horsepower, backpressure, and BSFC.
Watch this space
@@TurboDirectSA Borg-Warner's Matchbot is a failure. You can't specify engine horsepower which is a massive failure, making the Matchbot relatively useless.
The "tutorials" section is just a blank page with a bunch of headings where whoever got hired to do their website just flat quit in mid-project and didn't bother putting in the actual tutorials. The site says "hover over a portion of the Matchbot and more instructions will pop up" or some such. Doesn't work. I can hover and no pop-ups of any sort.
You may want to communicate that to Borg-Warner. If they are trying to turn people away, they are doing a GREAT job! Did someone from a competing company design their "Matchbot?" The flavor is one of a huge, monolithic German corporation reluctantly holding its nose and having to deal with mere human peasants.
@@exploranator I have to disagree with you there - Matchbot makes every other "match advisor product/program" look stupid - it gives you absolutely everything you need to choose a turbo. HP is NOT an input that you need to choose a turbocharger with, it is an output based on a turbocharger you choose to use and what boost you choose to run it at. Unfortunately the matching of any turbo is a technical exercise and you will need to know basics about your engine, cooler, exhaust, fuel, AFR etc - mainly aimed at Tuners and fabricators, to assist in aiding them to guide their clients (car owners/racers/drivers etc) in choosing the right turbo for the job.
And the words of Kevin Hart You going to learn today...!!!!
LOL -
Great video with good descriptive facts, really enjoyed it.
If possible could you include a longevity comparison between the two brands, as in how much abuse can they handle before they give up kind of thing, just your opinion on it. And a maximum boost/maximum thrust comparison between the two brands. I know it’s a lot to ask but maybe also how much boost they can withstand before failure.
Glad you enjoyed it Sam. The issue with getting a correctly installed and lubricated/operational turbo to fail is that you need to do something wrong to force it to fail for example lubrication related or create an overboost spike that overspeeds the turbo into a failure (which normally relates in a compressor wheel burst)
There is no real way (in existence today - yet) that allows to test real time thrust loads on an assembled and running turbochargers bearing system. I believe that the simulation software used in the design phase is definitely used in order to secure that the bearing system (thrust assembly) is able to last with the intended pressures and rotational speeds intended to operate at in order to produce the power/flow claimed for the said rotating assembly.
During normal operation i dont believe it will be possible to "kill" a Genuine Garrett or Genuine EFR / Airwerks turbocharger as described above. However i can confirm from personal hands on experience with race teams and current South African record holding machines that the Garrett turbochargers installed - most definately discolour and take strain with thermal cycling - this is not a good sign as keep in mind that even though this is during intended operation, the discolouration on the steel components show a straw discolouration (400Deg Celcius) - your oil also gets to this temperature, and well obviously breaks down and over time WILL cause abnormal wear to the bearing system. How long it takes for this to occur depends on the installation, pressures, fuel used, tuning, how the engine is run and for how long etc etc.....
On the Borg EFR Side, same thing applies, we have some Golf7R installations which are running the EFR7163 and have for over 30 000kms making 380-550WHP in street and race trim depending on fuel used in the tank - the turbo failed due to an air filter failure (delaminated - obviously a cheap air filter) at the inlet cone and pieces of the silicon front face broke off and entered into the compressor inducer damaging it. The bearing cartridge was not discoloured at all! There was no sign of any thermal loading on the bearing system at all - no pitting on the ball grooves, no carbon build up around the twin split seal rings on the turbine side. The shaft was slightly discolours at the neck due to the high EGT's experienced, but this did not carry through the cage/balls and into the outter race at all.
Always remember a turbo doesn just fail - something has to cause it to fail, unless there is an inherent problem, fault or design issue with it ==== HYBRID UPGRADES......
@@TurboDirectSA 100% I agree with you completely, turbos don’t just fail there has to be something to cause it.
I understand it’s very hard to “kill” a turbo and that the cause of failure is usually to do with something surrounding the turbo (as you mentioned a cheap aftermarket air filter that got pulled into the compressor wheel) i think I may have worded my question a bit wrong so apologies for that. What I am basically asking is that if you were to put an EFR of a certain frame size and a GTX of the same frame size or both of them being of the same horsepower capability on a particular vehicle and put each of them through the same strenuous tests of prolonged high boost runs and rapid acceleration (obviously not enough to overspeed and burst the wheel) but enough to put the ball bearing cartridge assembly under large thrust loads- which one of the two brands would come out on top afterwards ? If it’s a matter of opinion then I’d love to hear your opinion on which one it is but if you’ve seen a similar situation where the two have been put against eachother in a “duel” as such to test the two out then it would be great to know which one came out on top and why.
Thanks for your in-depth reply !
@@samuelgarnett3777 Thank for clarifying - challenge accepted. I have a 1JZ we busy building which we will be using in the future as a test donkey for all actual installed turbo test comparisons. I don't believe there is anyone else that has done this before - if there is, be so kind as to share this with me.
I will be installing back to back turbochargers from all makes and models that we hold agencies for in order to conduct testing on and we will do housing swaps and test the "diminishing gains" of each turbo side by side on the same engine, same dyno and same day - just to show you what the differences are in actual physical tests.
Ill run the Garrett G-series and EFR series turbochargers next to eachother with and then afterwards without coolant for a strenuous high boost long load time on the dyno and "give it to them" and then disassemble and inspect the two turbos step by step to show you the results of the bearings and thermal loads will be measured by thermocouples installed into the bearing housings water channels and EGT's aswell as compressor inlet and compressor outlets to provide a clear and comprehensive test result - im sure this will create alot of stir amongst the die hard fans on both sides.
To answer your question based on my personal experience in the past with both brands personally - i can confirm that the bearing system in the EFR series will definately outlast the G-series specifically relating to cooling, and thermal load discolouration. I have seen this first hand on various installations on various vehicles.
@@TurboDirectSA great that will be the perfect test. I’m sure you’ll get great hardcore factual results, and honestly no one can argue with that !
I have personally never seen someone do such a comparison so I’d love to see the results including boost response and exhaust back pressure and compressor cover outlet temp etc. I think this would be a great comparison. Good luck and I look forward to seeing the results, I’m sure it will be interesting !
@@samuelgarnett3777 Thanks Sam - will keep you posted on this.
I just got the predator from speed trap consulting I would like to try borg for my next project though
Let us know how the project goes.
I will defiantly great video man
@@TurboDirectSA I noticed the compressor wheel has your logo on it did you guys work together with speed trap consulting to create The predator compressor wheel
@@turbo-nicky No we ave always done our own work in-house. First we started with re-producing a wheel with its exact dimensions but added blades and did tests, and through the ages we started to draw up our own wheel designs and then started to use softwrae simulation to get the factual data before machining, and so we progressed.
Which borg warner be good for a stock internal 2jz gte for 500hp. Have standalone fuel injectors. Intercooler. Currently have a pte6262 .68ar.. woul like something simular in spool .
EFR8474 Black series will spool faster than this and make more power at the same time. You will be able to use a larger Turbine housing AR which will open up additional top end HP and still spool as fast as the pte
If you using the journal bearing pte, then the S300SXE would be the replacement for that, use the 825HP capable model, it will outperform the pte you currently using.
Hey wondering if your going to do an efr 7163, 7064 comparison. I went 7064 so I could get the b2 frame and compressor housing with larger inlet, anti surge. Love the turbo but curious if I left some performance on the table. Sr20det engine. Divided t4. Love the videos.
Thanks for the compliment -- You have an SR20 - its got a massive HP potential in relatively stock format. The engine is square and flows very well - although the 7064 and 7163 have the same HP rating, the compressor map on the 7163 shows more HP capability as it reaches the 580-600HP mark and it gets there, this i have experience with. The 7670 however is the boss -- it will give you the best spool and HP offering on the market today (apples with apples inside of the 600HP basket) and the best bang for the buck. The 7064 will work however and i would use it - ill have a wheel to upgrade it to soon so there is an upgrade path (15% estimated flow increase - IF you need or want it)
Hows the spool of the 7064? Do you have the T3 or T4 housing?
@@RetrocarStyle Great question, and here is something not many know - the 7163 is a much faster spooling turbo due to the fact that the small AR80 and AR85 turbine housings used are from the T28 family volute, and the 7064 (same size rotating assembly inside of 1mm) uses the T3 family volutes, so if you have a slightly large engine say a 6cylinder you would use the 7064 for a 550HP setup, and for the smaller engines, you would use the 7163 for the same 550HP capable setup with better spool
@@TurboDirectSA This is good to know. And since subject of these two turbos poped up I have yet another question..I have a Classic SAAB 900 with a 2.1L N/A engine that I want to turbocharge. The engine is over square with a rather short stroke and large bore ( 93mmx 78mm ) much like Subaru and Porsche engines. SAAB originally equipped the 2.0 turbo versions of this car with TB03 turbochargers, but they were very laggy turbo engines despite the .49AR turbine housings. The exhaust manifold can be changed but I prefer to use the original manifold that requires a T3 style turbo. Borg Warner is the only manufacturer that makes a current up to date turbocharger with ceramic bearings, steel turbine housing with IWG that is a direct bolt on turbo....the EFR 7064. My hp goal for this build is right at 300HP and I asked about spool characteristics because of the .83 A/R volute which may require 4K RPM to get into boost. ( drivabilty worries ) This can vary with compression ratios, cams , cylinderhear efficiency but do you think this would be a good match? The 7163 is a better option but it is not a direct bolt on. The Garrett GT30R71 is also a good choice but I do not like the 5 bolt flange style turbine housings and i would prefer something made from stainless steel with an IWG that is efficient in design. Any thoughts?? Thanks for your imput.
@@RetrocarStyle I'm using a fullrace twin scroll manifold .92 T4. The spool is great and cant complain. I knew the 7163 would spool a little quicker but I really wanted the 3.5 inlet and anti surge housing of the 7064 opposed to the 7163 2.5 non anti surge. It looks like you can get an sx-e compressor housing with anti surge for the 7163 but it doesn't have integrated bov. Played with the matchbot forever going between the two. 7064 was in the map quicker at low rpms high boost pressure but as the rpms increase the 7164 has way more under the belt as the flow is 60lb/min and 7064 is 54lb/min. I believe 7164 is largest B1 frame and 7064 is smallest B2 frame not sure how that would matter. I forgot to say that boost is capped at 400hp for now to keep the stock bottom end alive on 91 and the tune which played a part in choice as well.
I have a vband manifold that i cant sale ... for that reason , i was looking at the g30-660 / 770 or a efr7670 with a agp vband housing . What do you think of the agp Housing have you put your hands on one ?
We have never seen the AGP housings in person, but if they have calculated the AR correctly, using symmetrical designs, and angled the tongue correctly, i dont see anything wrong with using it.
@@TurboDirectSA do you make any housing for the efr in vband vband config ?
@@rbs14kouki Apologies no we dont - we have been concentrating on the TZR designs which we have been testing on track in the past 9 hour endurance race. This will be released soon.
What's the equivalent of the G30-660? I'd like to keep same spec. I'm getting Borgwarner mainly because it's lighter for my ultralight car.
EFR7163 -- this will run with and outperform the G30-660 with no problem. It will outspool the G30-660 by leaps and bounds aswell.
@@TurboDirectSA okay thx for the input! They are sponsoring me I was just at PRI and they asked me what I wanted... Their first guess was 7163. I was hoping to stay close in terms of tuning. I use the 7163 in a compound setup as the LP
@@Syncrogreg Spot on - keep us posted with the project. Good luck.
I am just now seeing BW is in my opinion superior for cost/ performance to the Garrett units . What BW turbo would be best for responsive 500ish whp on stock internal k24/k20 engine?
EFR8370 without a doubt - its capable of more, but will not fall away up top with higher RPM. Spool will also be linear and early
@@TurboDirectSA Thanks for the reply!
@@240southy8 My pleasure buddy
Hi, can I know what’s the max effective boost rate of a G30-900?
according to the compressor map - 2.5bar gauge pressure is where diminishing gains begin to step in.
Enjoyed!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!!! Oh, BW FTW!!!!!!! ;)
LOL -- thanks buddy, much appreciated!
Of course we should note here that MHI and BW are quite close in the design features of their turbine wheels, while most other manufacturers with the exemption of IHI look like they are Garrett's copies or evolutionary derivatives.
I agree with you on some of the designs relating to MHI and Borg - but IHI are in a totally different league to be honest - their designs are sought after and especially the Ancient Isuzu 2.5 and 2.8 engines were the first turbine wheels with a cut off exducer blade at a sharp upward angle - which confused me initially -- now EFR se this same design.
@@TurboDirectSA So IHI is also on the cutting edge of turbo development? Any chance they'll ever start selling turbos for the enthusiast market?
@@TurboDirectSA IHI they were on top on many levels like ball bearing designs, turbine design, compressor housing designs etc but they neglected the aftermarket which is the one that gives reputation but also through the tuning scene pushes the turbochargers to its limits and helps the manufacturer improving. Look at Presicion. They came out completely out of the US tuning scene, and they have their customers doing free testing for them... hahaha
@@802Garage Absolutely - IHI arent an OEM manufacturer for nothing - they have some serious products - look at the Audi RS6 twin turbo and many others....
Im pushing for answers on this myself - they would have an awesome product in my opinion.
@@aftastosk6016 I hear you -- IHI have a great product. They have amazing technology albeit they might be smaller manufacturers compared to others - but i believe that something may be coming in the near future - lets hope.
I have a 1.8L engine. Jet ski engine. No transmission. 1 gear, jet ski spins 9800 top end. I have had very good results with the gtx3076r gen2 .83ar housing , what borg efr would you reccomend for my application. Something that wont choke on top end but spools really quick. 20-22psi boost max on pump gas. Thank you in advance
The EFR8370 is a loaded gun, will spool very fast and make more power than the GTX did at the same boost pressure.
@@TurboDirectSA thanks i am going to look into that one. Not sure why i was leaning towards the 7163 after watching your videos. I thought the 7163 was comparable with the gtx3076r.
@@elitecustoms7667 7163 is a little underpowered compared to the GTX3076R Gen2
@@TurboDirectSA you just saved me a big mistake hahah. I was about to order it. Ill go ahead and get that 8370 and let it rip.
@@elitecustoms7667 Happy to Help buddy - keep us posted on the project
Can you compare Owens development GBT5471 to Garrett GTX2867R if thats possible. Thx
I dont have any Owen Turbos - i know Lee and Brian personally, we have spent time together at the international conferences many times. They good guys, and very knowledgable.
@@TurboDirectSA i have a GBT5471 🤓, very nice Turbocharger.
@@cetGT3 Share some specs and dyno figures if you have any. Will be great to see.
@@TurboDirectSA i have a Frankenstein Fiat engine that is a 1.9litre built from three different fiat engines, has all the performance internals thats available to cut it short, turbo sits on a sidewinder 38mm runners 38mm GFB external 3” turbo back exhaust system 5%nitro methanol injected, 875cc injectors and its due to go for a live map then a dyno run in mid june...when i have the graph i can email it to you then with a full spec of the engine!
@@cetGT3 Interesting build i must say! Id love to see the results - please shoot me an email with the details.
So if I wanted to choose a Garrett version of the Borg Warner 364.5sxe I would pick what?
Diesel
There is no Garrett option - they dont make a journal bearing turbo that can be directly compared to the journal bearing Airwerks S300SXE range.
@@TurboDirectSA No shit! What is the Garrett equivalent size to the sxe364.5? Size to size
@@nicholausstraach458 There isnt one in journal bearing
What about precision turbo?
Chinese made and USA marketed - We dont have much positive to say about them.
The bw efr 8474 is equivalent to a g40?
No it is a head on comparison to the G35-1050
It depends on your setup and the kind of performance you want for your specic setup
Setup takes a back seat when it comes to choosing a product for its reliability, ability, response, price and overall performance - Pretty much most of the features a turbo is based on.
@@TurboDirectSA both Garrett and borgwarner make reliable turbos same goes for precision
@@jz-qy9hb Precision are not an OEM manufacturer. They do not burst contain test any of their end housings, they do not manufacture to the same standards as the OEMs do.
I want to see someone just put a two bladed plane type propeller shaped inlet in a very wide by very flat tortilla shaped inlet housing.
Thad be be hilarious.
Could we feed food into it to use as a cutter?
Looks like Garett is taking design queues from BW.
IHI end of story. Bearing system win, turbine wheel trim vs flow win, turbine wheel designs win, Garrett with their G series turbine wheels are only just catching up to where IHI were 15 years ago 😂
Exacto mondo -- you are 100% correct sir!
Is there even an option for that? I drove by their factory in Missouri I was surprised to see it
I mean its very obvious that G turbos are 10% more efficient in same map ranges (unless they lied on there compressor map ratings) . I think i would trade 500rpm in spool for higher efficiency turbo.
I agree with you - IF and ONLY if more efficiency meant more power- but it doesnt .... so what are you trading for exactly?
@@TurboDirectSA more efficient means less energy needed to drive the turbine to achieve more power.
@@johnsm007 I know the answer - but ill play devils advocate so long. My response is this - less energy required to produce more power .... so the less energy introduced into the turbine stage will then rotate the turbine slower, and the slower the speed, the less boost.... lets take this across to a compressor map (forget about the turbine pressure map for now - so as not to confuse this any) why does the Garrett G-series turbo require so much speed to make its max power (inside the max efficiency island) -- ??
@@TurboDirectSA sorry not educated enough here, was just trying to apply basic physics
@@johnsm007 No worries let me help you some. The compressor map shows you everything you need to know about the compressor wheel (basics for the low level plotting - no turbine gas expansion, AFR, EGT, shaft output power etc....)
The map shows you speed, versus flow and pressure (boost) the compressor wheel has a drag co-efficient, the faster it rotates, the more resistance it creates, and the more shaft power is required to drive it - this has a direct effect on the flow the wheel can generate. The faster the more flow inside of a P2C ratio on the left side of the map.
Always reference the map to see what HP (lb/min of flow at the bottom of the map) at what pressure (forget about speed for now) then draw your lines and see what efficiency islands you cross through. You will see that the Airwerks S200SXE (as an example) reaches its max efficiency sooner than the G30-660, and is able to produce more power inside of its max efficiency (forget about the % value thereof) these two turbos are matched against eachother in terms of HP (and the map should reflect this in lb/min below)
I wont go into the flaws in the Garrett compressor maps here, but i think this will give you the answer relevant to our discussion. Lemme know.
Holding my breath
Good stuff! I love the knowledge
Kyrie Papatourbina synexise me auta ta videos :)
Θα σας ευχαριστώ κύριε
Ο Χρήστος είναι ο καλύτερος τουρμπινάς που υπάρχει. Λίγοι τα ξέρουν κι ακόμα λιγότεροι τα μοιράζονται.
@@aftastosk6016 Συμφωνώ μαζί σας - τα σχέδια borgwarner είναι πολύ υποτιμημένα και δεν διατίθενται στο εμπόριο τόσο επιθετικά όσο άλλες μάρκες.
@@TurboDirectSA είναι αλήθεια αυτό. Στην Ελλάδα υπάρχουν μόνο τα Garrett και Presicion, αυτά δουλεύουν τα μαγαζιά και οι τουρμπιναδες και αυτά ξέρει ο κόσμος.
@@aftastosk6016 thanks for the info - once the tuners in Greece come to realise that EFR is a serious contender, things will change for sure.
You were showing a turbine and then showing the compressor housings…. Weird. The turbine doesn’t go into the compressor housing.
Correct the turbine and compressor are separate - no-one said they flowed into eachother.
Um how about precision?
This is not an OEM turbo, it does not have burst containment approved end housings, and not applicable to this comparison as a result.
Me waiting for Part 2............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Tomorrow buddy - it will be uploaded tomorrow
500 посылок ,чем сто процентный ,это физически не возможно, потому помимо отправить их нужно упаковать и ТД и тп
I guess we are achieving the impossible then, because we have many clients who make over 350WKW with this turbo - ill make sure to pat my team on the back - thanks for the comment.
Good news boys, he didn’t say Volkswagen!
only thing what garret has prooffed few years ago its ugly marketing, and unreliable contsruction, including cartriges
4:03 video starts
Sorry about that - i always set the ground for the video. It important that i do this to prevent misconceptions.
@@TurboDirectSA Just do your best to speak straight facts. Let the haters comment, it boosts channel engagement.
@@two_number_nines Thanks buddy - thats exactly what i do - you'll come to know me. I am not scared to reveal facts about any product no matter the name. and no matter whether we sell it or not. For me its open honest straight down the line facts or nothing.
Cartridge is bigger on Borg but it newer takes the abuse a garrett cage will take
I disagree, from experience over the years, the Garrett cartridge is far less reliable and runs faster, hotter and fails much more often. Thermal loads on a tiny cartridge that Garrett use are much higher purely because of the higher rotational speeds that they run at, and hey dont last long when pushed hard. BorgWarners cartridge lasts MUCH longer its is more durable, thicker outter race walls, much larger cooling jackets in the bearing housing, ally bearing housing material, stacked ball race -- everything about the Borg is designed for abuse - Garrett use a "generic" angular ball bearing, mass produced, quick and cheap. Borg = attention to detail
Well if I was building a race car that ran on fuel I would Choose Garrett. If its diesel I would go Borg Warner.
BorgWarner will offer more in every application no matter the fuel used.
Starts at 4:02
Correct - but i needed to set the outline about what i am covering and what you can expect to see. Many times if this is not done, comments fly around about these aspects which i simply tried to prevent in the intro of the video - apologies if it was boring or frustrating - i know i get impatient sometimes aswell waiting for the video to actually start.
Watching this at 13 minutes in, it seems clear that you're biased toward BW turbochargers. I may have to edit this comment (again, not for typos) and eat my hat, but i doubt it.
Im not biased toward either of these two brands, in fact i have applications with both brands of turbo installed and they work perfectly for the specific application --- However It does seems you biased towards Garrett because you clearly don't like the facts that have been shared so far in the video and you only on part1 -- but once you see all the facts (thats what the video is based on - facts) one with sense will see the difference and know which is a better design. But you only at 13 minutes i guess ....
@@TurboDirectSA I currently do run a Garrett CHRA, but it's a very old model (gt3082r) and i've been thinking about getting something more modern. Due to your video(s) I have spent some time looking into the BW line of BB CHRA equipped turbochargers. My biggest issue with BW at this point is the actual "footprint" they take up. Compared to any Garrett, Precision or Xona, it seems they're a good bit bigger as far as outside dimensions. The turbine housing options seem a bit limited. As far as internals go, I can see they certainly seem more robust than their Garrett counterparts. The compressor maps seem comparable, and BW seems to run their maps out to higher P/Rs, which is nice to see. Your videos on this topic are quite informative. I appreciate you taking the time to publish them.
@@mitsuturbo Im happy to see that after 13minutes you have learned that my "bias" is in fact not bias at all .... Borg is far a superior product to Garrett, and is simply not marketed very well at all unfortunately. The physical dimensions are not that bad, compare side by side (not by eye) and youll see what i mean. I have done this and verified (apples with apples - family size for family size) there is no real difference outside of 5-8mm
@@TurboDirectSA "not marketed very well at all" is a gross understatement. If only they marketed as well as Garrett or Precision (yuck) i'm sure they'd have more share of the aftermarket/performance segment. Maybe i'll try one out. Really wanting to go with a Vband manifold, and my application doesnt allow for much wiggle room. Galant vr4s are pretty tight between the engine and radiator, even with mine moved forward a few inches.
Great videos. Very informative. I appreciate the effort!
@@mitsuturbo I agree - brilliant product, not marketted well at all - pity, but as a Borg distributor, this is what we do, and why we have these videos. Glad to help -
This video is way too long; it could be much shorter, if you planned it instead of, "Shooting off the hip." I sure as hell am not watching part 2, 49 minutes long.
Apologies you didnt like the presentation. We dont script anything, and nothing we do is fake or setup. There is alot to discuss and share, and many of the viewers dont have any experience or knowledge on the topic at all, so at time it might get monotonous, but i know that part2 is has alot more content in it that moves a little faster than part1. Thanks for the comment none the less.