Turbo Compressor designs - Discussed
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- Опубликовано: 31 мар 2021
- 802 Garage - you asked for this, i hope you enjoy it. I have shared VERY limited information on purpose. I haven't forgotten to mention certain things, i have purely not mentioned them for a reason. I have shared ALOT though, i hope you can appreciate that i cannot share too much as the knock off companies out there are constantly scouring the internet for information to educate themselves with.
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Wow this has phenomenal info! This is the only video I know of with reliable info on compressor wheel design. Love the one to one comparison of your 11 blade wheel vs the Garrett 7+7 splitter.
Really glad you covered root design as well because it's terminology I wasn't familiar with before doing some research after your comments before. Definitely something most people will miss.
The force analysis part is so good! This is like taking a college class for free. Love it. Makes it obvious why they started doing superback wheels. Material strength importance comes into focus too.
Since our last conversation I was thinking a lot about blade area, number of blades, blade height, blade angle, total volume between blades, and number of blades. Add rotation speed to all of that.
Also demonstrates why so many people who talk about billet "upgrade" wheels or how blade counts affect spool and power potential really don't even scratch the surface or know the subject at all.
The one topic I wish you touched on more was "spool time" which obviously is a function of mass as well as blade characteristics, and involves the turbine as well. Maybe a topic for another video?
You do a good job making it obvious this is a complex topic, but also that logic and of course math can give you solid answers. Clearly you could talk about it for hours and we still would need more!
I'll definitely be referencing this video in the future when I see people talking about compressor design who obviously need a bit more learning on the topic. Thanks very much!
Thanks man - much appreciate your feedback. Sorry i cant talk too much on the subject, as we design alot of our own wheels and have paid school fees in the past with plenty failures (material aswell as design performance failures) so there is alot of IP that we wont share im afraid.
@@TurboDirectSA I understand the trade secrets angle! The mark of a good teacher is giving enough information for the student to learn the concepts and expand upon them further themselves. ;)
@@802Garage 100%
@@TurboDirectSA Came back to watch again, probably for the third time now. As I keep learning outside of your videos I'm understanding more inside of your videos. Fully understanding pressure ratios and p2c for example is still a bit beyond me.
I think one epiphany I'm having though is that tip height is in a way misdirection. Tip... area? Might be a better way to describe it. Tip edge length? Total tip exposure?
Like on your green wheel, the tips are shorter, but with a much steeper angle, and the also have an extended tip with a taper.
That meas not only is the tip edge on the green wheel longer due to the steeper angle, but longer due to the taper extending into the outlet channel, and because of the taper it also essentially sweeps the air in the desired direction rather than just sort of blowing it up against a radius. The edge has more effect.
So really the angled, extended, tapered tips allow a wheel with the same tip height or less tip height than another wheel in the same or even a smaller housing channel to push the same amount or more air per sweep of each blade. Obviously the rest of the wheel matters too, but am I at least close to the target here?
@@802Garage Buddy you getting there. The extended tip does increase air flow and does improve the compressor map aswell - both on the Surge and choke limit.
This is a fantastic video. This is something I’ve needed to watch to help understand turbos more. I’m trying to put together a compound turbo for a 5 cylinder diesel 2.5 litre.
Very easy to understand.
Thank you.
Thanks For watching - Glad you enjoyed the video!
@@TurboDirectSA I did. I have now subscribed and look forward to watching more. 👍
Great video guys! Definitely opened my mind to the way different designs can influence turbocharger flow. Thank you very much!
I've been waiting for this type of video for quite a bit. You always provide clear cut explanations.
Same! So little good info out there.
Thanks for the feedback. I purposely never went into too much detail, but i was prepared to share what i did.
@@802Garage Thanks alot for the comment.
Incredibly well made video. The presenter is precise in delivering information also. Thank you
Thank you - much appreciate your comment.
Level of experience I’ve never seen matched impressive mate.
Thank you kindly!
Excellent tutorial, really awesome videoes, and hey if they turbo industry turns flat you would be a great teacher!
Thank you Stephen, glad you enjoying the channel.
Excellent explanation...
Was very helpful for me
Big thanks Sir.
Thanks for the compliment.
turbine wheel and housing is more important than compressor wheel design. there is a reason why most turbo oem choice is with splitter blades, garett started with 11 full blades in anti surge housings that can offer more max flow at the expense of higher surge line( higher minimum shaft rpm for starting to make boost) because a 6+6 bladed wheel has 12 blades at the exducer which means less spacing between the blades at the exducer means higher boost at lower turbine shaft rpm. For most turbochargers you can find a compressor wheel that has bigger higher blades smaller stub exteded tip at same dimensions which would be better than stock cast original. Just that at same boost whit a lower back pressure it will make more power.
Very informative
Open new world of turbo design for me
Awesome vid, as they all are, from the comp map vids you can see some hit high efficiency at lower boost than others which seems like a better choice if you're stuck on pump gas, was hoping to get a bit of info on that but now know there's a lot that can vary, you see some newer turbos not really getting the results you expect but then you see on the map for that engine they might need 2 bar+ to do it but you haven't got the gas etc so at 1.3 1.5 bar it's not really partying.
Papa got burnt, that we know haha
Thank you for the compliment, much appreciated. You 100% correct. I think i need to do another video on efficiencies to further explain this - everyone seems to think that a higher percentage number means a better, higher flowing, and better performing turbocharger - this is not the case at all im afraid.
Such a great video. Learnt alot...
Man, even in the comments of your videos there's another wealth of information!
Thanks Tommy - appreciate you and your comments pal.
Good stuff. There is so much that I don't understand about turbo design.
Im happy ot help you learn - shout if there is any thing you would like to learn.
Superb presentation!
Thank you!
i love it not biased just factual
nice job
Thanks alot Paul -
I was really looking forward to getting some useful information from this video, but all I learnt was the names of the different parts, which most I already knew😢 I understand the Author doesn't want to give away valuable information to thousands of people, but I am getting into building my own jet engines and am looking for a supplier for compressor wheels, and I would like that supplier to be in my own country of Australia. If I get told the information I want then I will buy off you for the rest of my life, hopefully 30+yrs lol. I actually only have two questions I want answered and then we can talk about size, rpm, boost level and then hopefully price, and then I will be able to start working out the sizes for my designs. To start with I will be using second hand compressor wheels(for testing) out of turbos off cars and larger machinery, which I already, have but if I am going to be buying from you for the rest of my life I want the truth, and I am definitely not going to be telling anyone else about it. I am an engineer as well as sheet metal worker and for the last 25+ yrs I have been doing performance work on bikes, scooters, racecars, road cars(atmo/turbo) trucks and heaps more with my tiny little business GCraig Pe4mance. I would really appreciate it if you would leave me a comment or contact me about the future, thankyou for your time, Craig Landsberg
Unfortunately noone will share the kind of information that you are looking for. To manufacture a wheel with a specific mass flow rate, surge and choke limit, etc is one thing, teaching you 'how to fish' is unfortunately not an option im afraid. I would contact a company like honeywell - they offer these types of design services.
Wow! - what a great video. Ok I thought of a topic for a follow up video. The design of the turbine housing. I'm a aircraft gas turbine engine instructor so I'm familiar with aero engines. In a turboprop engine that has a centrifigal compressor the impeller gives the air velocity which is flung into the turbine ring which has a series of expanding ducts where velocity reduces and static pressure increases (bernulis theorum). In an automotive turbo design, does a similar thing happen. Is that what the compressor housing does?
100% correct sir - same principal applies - only difference is your engines are axial and the turbocharger is radial (some are mixed flow)
AWESOME video.
Thank you
Quick questions, did you have another video on compressor wheel design that you privated or something? I swear there were two on the channel. I also thought I remembered you saying wheel exducer size was the most important dimension in determining overall max power. Is that true or am I crazy? I know inducer design affects max power as well, obviously. Thanks!
Buddy i removed the other video. I will be making more vides on maps soon. We are snowed over with a few projects that require our full attention. We hope to have some more content soon. Apologies for the delays
@@TurboDirectSA No worries. At least I'm not crazy. Always looking forward to more! Thanks.
@@802Garage LOL - no you not crazy at all.
If he's from South Africa, I'm subscribing.
This is a good video ....very interesting
I want to ask
What is the best number of blades or what determines the number blades
Blade count is a small part of the design criteria of the compressor - factual data like air flow, mach speed, P2C, losses, efficiency etc are more important, and changing the design of the wheel yields differing results, which produce totally different maps and flow data. no two multi blade wheels will flow the same even if they are the same inducer and exducer size. The driving turbine has a big part to play in the performance and ability of the compressor aswell which is something that is not spoken about often due to the limited knowledge on the topic.
Very good......
Thank you
Great video
Thank you
@@TurboDirectSA no problem mate :)
Thank you. Can you say something about the general difference between wheels with different blade numbers?
Looking at diesel turbo oppgrades one finds for example the 5-splitter blade Wicked Wheel 2. What are the pros and cons for 7-splitter blade and 5-splitter blade compressorwheel compared to "the new age" 11, 10 and 9 full blade length compressorwheels? If we look at compressor maps, the 7-blade splitter seems to be "best" when it comes to map width. We have had many challenges with surge with turbos with 6-blade splitter and 11 blade wheels when we want 300 whp @ 4000 rpm from 2.0 l engines with maximum power in the range 450 - 500 whp running pump fuel. We had to do what you do not recommend, go to ebay and buy a aftermarked "non-brand" 7-blade spliter compressor wheel to solve the problem to get the owner the result he demanded. (2,2 BAR of boost at 3900 rpm without surge was needed.)
When using the Garrett boost advisor and BW matchbot, the result is often a red N/A.
Finn Roen its difficult to comment and generalise because of the fact that all compressor wheels (even with similarly sized blade diameters) have a different root design which has a direct effect on the blade area across the root profile - Remember i only measured the root size at the very top of the compressor nose in my video - but the root design carries on downwards from the inducer blades downward to the exducer, and the shape between two wheels will be different, and lets say - half way down the root, the blade area is larger on one wheel compared to the other, the flow rate and pressure ratio/tip height will also differ. This has a direct effect on the compressor map aswell.
What i did in 2012 was make a 100% dimensional copy of the 60-1 compressor wheel which is a 7 blade splitter, and i did this with a billet 11 blade design. The root and blade area was IDENTICAL - the inducer and exducer was IDENTICAL - the total height was IDENTICAL hole diameter etc etc -- all 100% IDENTICAL - we took this wheel and tested it on an R33 Skyline which was on a dyno - which was running a Precision6262 turbocharger with AR63 turbine housing we decided to replace this with a Garrett GT3076R (NOT GTX) with AR63 turbine housing. We did back to back runs and OBVIOUSLY the Garrett was more responsive, because it was a smaller turbocharger even though with the same T3 AR63 turbine housing. We then removed the supercore out of the turbine housing which remained behind (easier and faster to remove and reinstall) and we machined the comp housing by hand on a lathe (clearances were abnormally large and slightly outside of tolerance) and ran the car again - we did all tests on pump fuel - at 1.2bar boost using a Haltech Platinum ECU. All tests were done on the same dyno and the same day - inside of 4 hours total time spent. We used a Dastek Dyno and the results were as follows:-
6262 - 1.2bar gauge pressure = 340KW
GT3076R - 1.2bar gauge pressure = 400KW
60-1 11 blade - 1.2bar gauge pressure = 420KW
Without going into a 10page essay on this - the example here shows that for the identical root design with additional blades (no splitters) the wheel at the same boost pressure made more power - AT THIS BOOST OF 1.2bar -- i do not have a compressor map for this wheel, it was an experiment done on the dyno in 2013 with a good friend of mine and by far the best tuner in South Africa hands down by the name of Steve Clark from No Sweat Racing - google him, youll be surprised. So we are totally blind here, BUT at this boost with these turbos, back to back, the results speak for themselves.
Now if we go by what Garrett claims with their Gen2 GTX compressor designs (i have conflicting information in the various Garrett printed and electronic catalogues which contradict eachother) the 10blade wheel is said to flow more - but we cannot confirm this because the inducer and exducer diameters were changed (enlarged) for the same model turbo -- GTX3582R Gen1 compressor measured 62.4mmx82mm 11 main blade - 750HP capable. The GTX3582R Gen2 compressor measures 66mmx82mm and has 10 main blade design. Where i am going here is simply this - if the inducer and exducer sizes and dimensions remained the same (like the GT3582R and GTX3582R gen1 did) and only the blade count was changed, then maybe we could understand more about this - but its not the case. So unless you have dissected the topic and actual wheels, it would be pure speculation or opinion. We have laser scanned hundreds of wheels over the years in order to learn about this topic, we have manufactured many wheels that simply failed at performing even though we thought and really believed that they must work --- we have some wheels that do actually work and work brilliantly with designs that we never thought would actually work .... then we stopped thumb sucking and started doing actual tests and simulation to prove designs before we machined wheels. We now have a test bench and able to do real world back to back tests against different wheel designs in order to measure, document and prove flow and pressure ratios at specific speeds in order to plot and understand what the wheels can do factually. What we have learn is PLENTY and im afraid not really available outside the design office.
What i can tell you is that the 7blade splitter design is something that is very difficult to beat (size for size) by changing the number of blades. This is why the BorgWarner designs, although seem antiquated, are still today some of the best designed aero wheels that exist.
Here is a tip - when you experience surge, change the turbine housing AR - you'll be surprised. Sorry for the extremely long response, it is a very in depth topic.
@@TurboDirectSA Thanks for not dumbing this down too much. We all acknowledge that this (aerodynamics) is a very in depth subject. We're here to learn.
@@reubenmorris487 Glad to help.
Did the 7+7 blade make more power at the lower rpm or did it just make more boost? Sometimes people focus too much on the boost pressure and not enough on the efficiency and actual power.
Grate information
Looking to make a new wheel.will try contact you guys to give spect and see what could you come up
Thank you sir
Excellent, you talk as usually about things that nobody else wants to talk about. I personally prefer more the use of splitters in the compressor wheels (in principle). However I understand that a compressor wheel without splitters can be more suited for certain applications. Why your compressors are green?
We made our compressors a specific green colour for two reasons, the first is that we called them the "hulk" wheel upgrade LOL
The other is because we had a few local companies purchasing our wheels and then copying them and selling them with the same name and product code as ours to un-suspecting people. The material was not up to scratch and the wheels failed, and obviously we got the flack for it.
@@TurboDirectSA !!!!! That sucks! Have you taken legal action against them?
@@aftastosk6016 No buddy the designs aren't patented, and impossible to patent anyway ... its a compliment, as we know we doing something right.
@@TurboDirectSA Indeed!
I have a mk3 supra with a ct26 with a very shot(blades are missing a lot of material from the leading tips), stock cast 5+5 spliter comp blades.
Dimensions are 46mm inducer and 65mm exducer.
I've seen another company or two that makes a compressor kit (new wheel and housing) with same inducer and exducer dimensions but with a billet comp wheel, and 11 main blade with a thinner root.
Would the 11 main blade with a thinner root but longer blade length be a better choice for a rebuild even over a billet 5+5 splitter of the oem design?
I've had to re-watch this vid a couple times to get my brain juices flowing and it starting to feel like it is.
Thanks for the comment, we do upgrades on these CT26 turbochargers using a Mitsubishi TD05 wheel (similar hole diameter), which we modify the rear of the wheel to fit the abnormally large and high steel collar. Its difficult to say which wheel is better or not, without seeing a compressor map, which shows the exact specifications of the wheel itself.
@@TurboDirectSA Toyota for some reason never had flow chart/compressor map for the ct26. I've looked as far back as 2003 on forums and closest thing I got was a flow rating of 437cfm or 33 lb/m
@@xXAsunaxKiritoXx That might have been the MAX flow rate - but without a map, its impossible to know the characteristics of the compressor
what is it blowing to a straw or housepop ?))
Slightly off topic. Water or methanol or water/meth or nitrous pre turbo.
Are blades in danger of being damaged? Obviously compressor maps will change due to density changes in the air. But would there be any advantages in going pre turbo rather than post due to it?
Thank you for the video's. They are something I regularly look forward to.
Excellent question - and yes anything ingested through the intake tract WILL damage the compressor. We have recently had a client with two turbochargers G30-900 installed on a Golf7R who suffered both turbocharger failures through WMI being plumbed through the intake - now it was not due to the meth itself impacting the blades, but instead the intake pipe which was made from aluminium, and the fabricator painted the inside with that crinkle paint in the aerosol can, which reacted with the METH and these particles made contact with the compressor damaging it, and progressively caused erosion, which broke blades off. The natural comment/assumption was "your turbos cant handle the boost" which is incorrect.
I personally visited the client and inspected the installation myself and found the cause.
Now the biggest risk here is not blade damage but instead bearing damage - now very few people actually understand how a bearing housing and its sealing system works, its based on a hydrodynamic pressure differential which incorporates two piston rings, AKA split seal rings. In their compressed stated (installed/assembled) the ring has a gap aswell as clearance underneath the ring inside its ring groove. This clearance is designed to allow pressure/gasses to enter the bearing housing passed the split seal ring - this is primarily how the oil remains inside the bearing housing and doesn't leak. This clearance around the ring and its groove WILL allow meth to enter the bearing housing too - this will dilute the oil and well -- the rest im sure you can understand - the bearing system WILL fail depending on severity.
Ill do a video on this in the coming weeks with a cut out of a ball bearing turbo to illustrate this for you.
@@TurboDirectSA Thank you once again.
@@chichigti1989 Its my pleasure
how the compresor inlet influence the wheel flow capabilitys...a taper vs straight flow path will influence? how a tube in front of the inlet vs open compressor affects?? does intalling a velocity stack on the compressor work? thanks
Anything that causes a restriction will negatively affect the compressor - naturally. What is a velocity stack? These come in various sizes, radius profiles, heights etc -- whats the "magic" angle?
WRC turbo restrictors range from 32-36mm restrictors placed in front of the compressor housing. The length of the restrictor and the position in front of the housing will greatly affect the compressor ability to operate/function and its functioning efficiency.
How long is a piece of string is pretty much what you have asked. Depending on the velocity stacks design, and dimensions aswell as position in front of the turbochargers inlet all has a direct effect .....
Uy papi 💕
Thank you !
Love the vids and learning a lot. Im also a watch collector and I know Ive seen this watch and want one like it but I can't remember the make and model. Do you remember? thanks
Glad you learning from the videos - just a question, which watch are you referring to?
@@TurboDirectSA it was black one. Looked like a Casio GWN-Q1000 Gulfmaster which I found out that was the Model I was trying to find and did. keep up.the great content
@@edwinthomas618 Check out the aviator -- it might be this one that you saw.
Is a efr9174 1.05 split pulse a good responsive turbo to put on a 4.0 barra to run 20-22psi boost on pump 98 with supporting mods?
Perfect choice - it will spool fast and make the claimed power easily.
Perhaps play with a smaller AR turbine housing if the application is more street use.
Bossman thanks for the info. Still not sure if it's worth it to spend 100 bucks to go from a cast 6+6 to a billet 7+7.
Edit: Also as somebody from germany it's embarrassing that people here are stealing your designs instead of doing their own research.
Thanks pal - remember the gains between the different wheels are what you gauge as being worth paying for.
@@TurboDirectSA Dude you are so cool and mysterious. I am sure you are good with women but,
come on just tell us the difference between split blade compressor wheels and ones where all the blades are the same. how much money would giving out this information really lose your company.
@@midgrave HAHAHA thanks buddy - you made my day. The design differences are so complex and its not a straight answer, splitter blade versus full main blades. Its mostly application specific, angle of the blades, sweep, loft, and the entire design that makes or breaks a blade - and not just whether its main or splitter blade designed. I cant tell you much more than this.
I’m completely new to this and can’t find a straight answer.
I have a td04 13t and want to change the housing to a td04 20t
Does the compressor wheel have to be changed?
I don’t understand what the 13t vs 20t exactly measures? Just that it’s wheel related
two wheels are different sizes so the hole diameters inside the housings will be different sizes, so how will the smaller wheel fit inside the larger housing hole?
Is it a TD04, H, L, HL?
At minimum, the compressor and compressor housing are changed.
A lot of math n physics ❤
Hello, with which of the 2 wheels I have the best performance, both wheels have the same average
TD04HL 45.65/52mm 5+5blades turbo wheel/ turbine shaft&wheel for
MITSUBISHI
TD04HL 45.65/52mm 9 blades turbo wheel/ turbine shaft&wheel for
MITSUBISHI
Unless you have a compressor map its not really possible to decide which performance better.
Hello Sir! Sometimes i see for the compressor/turbine wheel big difference between size inducer and size exducer. Sometimes you see little difference in inducer/exducer size for the wheel. Other time you see big difference between inducer-exducer size. Do you have a explanation for this? Maybe better spool?, other blade design? Many thanks for explaining this!
Inducer and exducer sizes are relative to the intended application. Some diesel engines have very large turbine wheels and much smaller compressors, in cases where a compensation for sea level is required. Other examples might involve a turbo that has diameters of inducer and exducer on both the turbine and compressor that only 1-2mm differ between the two sides fo the turbo - these apply in some Rally governed turbochargers.
@@TurboDirectSA Sir, thank you!
@@kosditrade Pleasure buddy - anytime.
As I understand,, every 10 lbs/min would produce ~ 100 hp on gasoline engine.
But for example I have diesel engine om605 with gtx3071,
1.8 bar set.
And as I see its no way even close to 500 hp get with this turbo,,
Question is does this formula work only for certain fuel?
BSFC Brake specific fuel consumption comes into play yes. Diesel engines will not produce the same output as a gasoline engine, and the same goes for nitro engine and methanol engines etc.
After watching your videos, and looking into the new Garrett compressor maps vs their older tech i have assumptions and questions. The newer Garrett 10 blade compressors move the compressor map to the left, greater mass flow at lower shaft speeds, (better "sealing" for a wrong word idea), better efficiency percentage at high pressure ratios. However, it seems the "leaky" 7+7 wheels catch a bigger "gulp" of air and push the useable map to the right while sacrificing "compressor efficiency percentage"at higher pressure ratios? I'm not a turbo builder, but i am a dyno guy.
Garrett have gone backwards since they were spat out by Honeywell. Honeywell aero engineers were the secret recipe to the previous successes of Garrett, which are now lost. The G-series is disappointingly poor i have to say when compared to other models that compete head on.
@@TurboDirectSA Thanks for the reply. I've been studying the new/ old Garrett maps, and it seems the 10blade stuff is good at high pressure ratios, and moves the map to the left, but really doesn't help much off the right side of the map. The 9 blade turbine seems extraordinary, tho I'm sure it has repercussions
@@TurboDirectSA It really seems the "new" 10 blade stuff is a gimmick to sell new shit. If the 10blade compressors were so fantastic, they would have taken over 40 years ago. There are always compromises in compressor design. No free lunch
@@kylemilligan752 Garrett once bankrupt, had to come up with ideas to sell product for max profit, they used ancient journal bearing designs which they had moulds and tooling for in the form of the GTW series, and machined a billet compressor wheel which was nothing innovative, but as long as it was billet and did not outperform the GTX/G-series it would sell, at a massively reduced cost to their manufacturing. All the components that made up the GTW were already old and tooling paid for, and in stock, to assembling something with a new compressor wheel and charging a hefty price for it, was a 'winner' but in fact the product itself is not very good at all, and being journal bearing it didnt last long and was laggy. On the G-series side the design of the compressor is not that great, its literally something that is overrated and by alot. Its not that reliable compared to the GTX Gen2, and the 'clean sheet' claims were simply something to start a new following - they should have been on Gen3 G-series years ago according to ex Garrett employees, yet they are still on Gen1 - pity the dream team is no longer since the management change.
@@kylemilligan752 Actualy looking at the ancient CAT design compressor which is 10 blade (no splitter blades) that is now almost 30 years old - it was made originally from cast aluminium, and then machined, and now titanium -- its OLD and 10 blades. the turbo part# is 740464-20 - check it out.
How much more power can these cartridges make compared to stock? I have a 2013 bmw 550i n63 motor.
Which cartridge?
11 blade compressor with 9 blade turbine@@TurboDirectSA
And what exactly is the PTC ratio?
Its the pressure ratio on the left side of all compressor maps - indicating the ratio of pressure between gauge and atmospheric. Check these videos for more information and an explanation on exactly what this is:-
ruclips.net/video/z_BFLTqstoY/видео.html
The splitter blade design of the borg has a bigger inducer throat area, when approaching choke and the shockwaves that come with it, the bigger throat area has more room for the air to get around the shockwave. The 11 blade has a small throat so the shockwave blocks the flow path quickly. This is where the map groove comes in.
Also, splitter wheels have more blades that distribute the air more evenly in the wheel, reducing blade loading. Full bladed wheels can "pile up" on the pressure side of the blade, leaving a void on the suction side that can agitate secondary flows and cause inefficiencies. Love reading N.A. Cumptsy's compressor book.
There are no shockwaves in the compressor stage - this will destroy the blades in a very short space of time.
@@TurboDirectSA very much is shockwaves, that's what causes choke in every part of the turbo, exhaust side included. Take your gtx3576r for example. Choke line is 145k rpm, at 58mm diameter that's a tip speed of 1,443ft/sec /440m/sec. Speed of sound on standard day is 1125ft/sec / 343m/sec.
@@joek4721 The shockwave you referring to relating to the sound barrier occur once as the speed breaks this barrier. This tiny shockwave occurs at the tip of the blade alone, which is why when looking at a compressor wheel under a holographic camera, only the tips vibrate - the blades are designed to vibrate inside of the 4th order vibration tolerance - before this speed and after this, there are no shockwaves. The specific turbo you referring to runs at this speed from a P2C ratio of 2.5 upwards to 4.0 - the rotational speed of the tip of the blade 1585.29km/h at todays altitude density and temperature etc in South Africa.
This changesas conditions change ofcourse. This is the absolute maximum rotational speed allowed on this rotating assembly - it is not often that you will find this speed being achieved - 99% of applications do not reach this speed.
Regards to the comment above relating to throat area, this is directly proportional to the blade angle, height and the sweep and loft of same - mentioning a general comment is incorrect and irrelevant. The BorgWarner EFR series turbochargers with similar sizes compressors in the same HP family rotate slower and produce more air flow than the comparative Garrett range - all the EFR blades are 7 blade splitters -
Distance between the blades do not affect the rotational speed of the blade, therefore the barrier will be broken at the same speed (conditions dependant) no matter how many blades are present.
Splitter blades have no effect on how much loading is applied to the main blade, as the splitter blade does not intercept the air path or contact position at the blades leading edge - this statement is false.
No air "piles up" between blades, as the blades angle, sweep and loft are responsible for directing and compressing the air through the diffuser area via the tip height. If the air "piled up" there would be very little if any efficiency, or the diffuser would be blocked and/or surge will occur.
@@TurboDirectSA once you break the SoS, the shockwave is there, yes it starts at the tips, and works down if tip speed increases. Shockwaves do not go away, nor can you accelerate through them. You can however accelerate through vibration nodes, which is what you mentioned. Search for "trans sonic compressor" and you'll get much smarter guys than me talking about it in their papers, with great visual aids too.
I agree with blade inlet angle, inlet/ outlet ratio, and rake making 2 similarly sized wheels flow differently. But can't forget about compressor housing a/r, do the efrs have a larger a/r than garretts?
Also, the air most certainly does "pile up" on the pressure side of the blade. The work done to the air as it goes through the wheel is never even. Rather than a smooth, even flow entering the diffuser like everyone thinks, it's actually "waves", or pulses, as each blade goes past. Wheels with more blades do a better job of processing the air, but then the wheel has a higher mass, higher stresses, and larger moment of inertia. Look up "centrifugal compressor wake", it's amazing stuff, and alot of it was found/ measured/ modeled in the 60s and 70s.
@@joek4721 Thanks for the comments, without revealing too much information all i can say is that over the 10+years we have designed and tested/proven our own compressors, you seem to have alot of theory which you have read up in various places, but no actual physical experience. Many things you mention are false and out of context - ill leave this right there.
So on the root width is that the main reason why cast wheels flow less than billet wheels at the same inducer size? I assume the cast wheel requires a thicker root to prevent failure vs a billet. Also second question. Why doesnt any of the big turbo companies do anything with the compressor nut in terms of aerodynamics? Ive seen some Comp turbos with a bullet shaped cap but no one else.
I think what you point out is more important for the turbine nut.
I'm not the expert here, but from prior convos with Chris I think I can say just mentioning a "billet" wheel does not give the full picture.
A forged billet high quality wheel will have higher strength material, and therefore can likely have a reduced root size with the same blade design, so that would increase flow area, though not decrease total weight necessarily.
Many aftermarket billet wheels may not actually be made from a proper material to have a smaller root than a cast wheel without failure. So while they may be lighter, they may not actually flow more, and they may actually be weaker.
Basically yes, cast wheels likely flow less than properly designed billet wheels of a higher strength material due to root size. But, cast may flow as well or better than cheap billet or those designed for high strength with similar flow.
As usual with turbos, it's complicated! TurboDirect S.A has another great video on that topic titled "Billet vs cast compressor wheels" that probably covers what I just said better.
As for compressor nuts, my guess is that given air flow at such high speeds/volumes over the root, the turbulence is negligible and the total mass/size of the nut is more important. Fancy nuts are likely mostly decorative.
@@802Garage I bought a Chinese billet compressor out of curiousity and I should say that the external design features are excellent, as well as the weight for its size. But I am not sure about its durability, not convinced that is made out of 2618. And yes, fancy nuts are decorative.
@@aftastosk6016 Same here! Of course many billet wheels sold anywhere were produced in Asian. I have one Chinese billet wheel from a very nice seller on eBay who actually had to produce it to ship along with an upgraded turbine. Turbine is supposed to be 713C Inconel and wheel is supposed to be 2618 Aluminum. Essentially an experimental rebuild on a TD04L-13T for a Subaru.
I'm very pleased with the look and feel of the billet wheel, also very lightweight. As far as actual performance and material strength, who knows? Seems to be mostly a direct copy of a factory wheel with some added features and lighter. There are also narrow nose billet wheels I didn't know about at time of purchase.
Also ordered a GT2554 billet wheel from Aliexpress quite cheap, allegedly made of 2618. Hard to find replacement parts for those little guys anymore. I suspect many Chinese/Taiwanese billet wheels are from the same few factories. Hopefully they do a decent job balancing! I'm sure they'll hold up in most light duty applications.
@@802Garage I ordered a 20T compressor wheel from AliExpress made by MAX ABLE (Most products there are either from them or RUICHENG). It's a 6+6 compressor that is of different design than the more usual "Kawasaki" style 6+6 billet wheel that is offered by the Taiwanese manufacturers. It has a more extended tip diameter, a different, more pronounced curvature of the main blades, and above all, smaller splitter blades. Judging by its appearance it seems designed to be more efficient at higher boost levels that the billet wheel, which by itself extends the efficiency range of the MHI wheel by 0,15 bar (from 1,3 to 1,45. This is empirical observation by other users). I have no idea from where the original design came in, possibly it's from ARD which claimed that its compressor wheel could go up to 1,7 bar.
This compressor was ordered out of curiosity but also as a possible replacement for the Td04L-13T that I am running right now in my car. While in theory not the most sensible choice for a Td04L, it was a pleasant surpise that it weights only 37g, 5 grams lighter than the original MHI 13T!
I want to ask you a few things about the parts that you received. Is it a 9 or a 11 blade turbine wheel? Is it a 6+6 compressor? Have you done weight measurements? Have you installed the new parts in the turbocharger and if you have, how well have they performed?
PTC or PTS or BTS ratio ? where can i find info about this ?
P2C
What would be the difference, for example, between a conventional 88s and an 88s with a stepped turbine wheel? Thank you
What do you mean by stepped?
It is being widely used in the United States in the Pro mod category, stepped turbine wheel
Still not understanding what you mean by 'stepped' this could be a cut-back, it could be a taper exducer, it could a a myriad of things - @@lucaspuigdemasa1438
Why you didn't mentioned about Inducer and Exducer role?
In the attempt to keep this low level and understandable for most. There are too many technical aspects to discuss about blade angles, sweep, lofts, pitch, aspect ratio --- and the list goes on. Besides we will never outline everything -- noone will. Im sure you understand.
I run a hub less there is not a nut holding the compressor wheel on the wheel it’s.self is threaded and the hub is thin
Known as boreless - has an extension at the bottom of the wheel which is threaded and screws onto the shortened shaft and acts as part of the sealing system. The CAT applications use this design with ally and titanium compressor wheels.
So would a 7+7 spool better than a 11+0 blade? Both billet (gen 1 gtx vs custom 7+7 splitter)
Unfortunately spool has nothing to do with just blade count - not possible to answer this question.
@@TurboDirectSA im trying to find a turbo setup which will spool better than my existing turbo without losing any top end, im currently using a gtx2860r gen 1 0.64, do you have any suggestions? 330whp
@@Bradley0beaver you will need to use a smaller AR turbine housing, however if you are currently running a boost level that is higher than 1.4bar gauge pressure, using a smaller AR turbine housing will restrict flow through the turbine, and this WILL affect your top end power negatively.
@@TurboDirectSA damn man! I use 1.8 bar boost :/
@@Bradley0beaverusing a smaller AR turbine housing like the AR49 or AR57 will definately limit top end power - what motor is this?
Reaffirmed the hypothesis i had .. do it again on turbines please ..
I'd watch that. :D
Good idea - next video will be on turbines. I will share what i can aswell but it will be informative i promise.
@@TurboDirectSA my hypothesis on that one is that a GT28 and GT30 is just a turned down GT35 therefor the GT35 has the best blade area to mass ratio ..its also interesting to see the blades got thinner as they used better materials that could handle the heat better.
@@incolink Not really - the compressor aswell as the turbine blades do not share the same root design/dimensions when comparing the 30 and 35 family - The 30 family turbines (3 different inducer/exducer sizes 51.78mmx56.5mm, 53.6mmx56.5mm, and the 55mmx60mm) share the same root design, the GT35 does not share the same root with any other turbine, not even the GT37 which measures 72.5mmx64mm.
Gone are the good old days where Garrett truly was the leader in technology, and owned by Honeywell - all the "dream team" staff are gone, and the new setup is totally flawed in my opinion. Lets hope for the best, but as it stands today there are problems with the compressor maps and the real life results with the new stuff.
@@TurboDirectSA i really wish there was a modern turbine in between like a GT32 orTA34 BB i have TR30VGT i want to put a slightly bigger turbine in and the step to GT35 seems a bit big
The company he did not mention, precision... they all fail from tiny roots.... they flow more for a given size inducer? (more air space less root) . my question, does precision run bigger trims? seems like the inducer to exducer ratio, precision runs bigger exducer size on a comparable turbo?
The fallacy that PTE compressors outflow other designs is simply that - a myth. We have tested back to back on the same dyno on the same day a setup on a very popular drift car in S.A where we removed a PTE6262 and installed a GT3076R with an 11 blade compressor wheel which i duplicated the dimensions of the 60-1 compressor (only difference was it had 11 blades) and ran 0.1bar boost less, with the same AR63 turbine housing and made 80HP more than the 6262 at around 1000rpm better response.
We have a SUPRA that used to run a PTE pro-mod turbo, which battled to spool into launch on the line (2JZ) and when replaced with a GTX4720 (88mm compressor) spooled fast enough not to use launch, and achieved a better ET and exit speed at 0.5bar boost less...... no dyno time was carried out, but much better results every time.
These are some of the experiences with PTE turbos in the past - here is an archive of the test listed above
web.archive.org/web/20130702151857/www.turbodirect.co.za/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=775&Itemid=55
@@TurboDirectSA having a few turbo u.s. m50 / s52 BMW's and I always see almost all pt62/62 and 62/66 dyno graphs show exactly what your describing .. Hard to know all the other variables on a person's set up so I did not want to assume . Good to hear it's not just speculation on my part. I'm currently running a gtx3582 gen 2 over a g series largely based on this channel . (bmw e39it with a s52 3.2 , 600? at the tire) The g35900 seemed too small and the g35-1050 the turbine is a mis match imo. wish I could find a Garrett with a slightly larger turbine exducer , think 3582 or 3584 with a 64 -66 mm turbine. the cheaper Garrett line does not seem to perform on the m5x platform (similar reviews to pt)
@@drewdavis239 Buddy - EFR kicks Garrett out the game every time, in all areas - its sad but true. The onc3 dream team is now missing, and the company is bankrupt - tsk tsk
Key takeaway is to look for the company to provide a compressor map that matches Compressor/turbine specs or to question the reliability or the product. Really interesting what goes into these designs! Seems like Garrett is a good standard in the industry for reliable designs.
Reliable to provide compressor maps, but accurately depict the HP compared to their maps -- i think not. The G-series product is not able to produce the power that Garrett Claim in their catalogues, nor are they able to marry the compressor map to the HP print either - the flow rates dont match the HP.
@@TurboDirectSA I think the issue is Garrett seems to be pretending we can get 12hp per lb/min of air flow. Otherwise their maps appear reasonably accurate, just not underrated like they once were. Of course you are probably measuring wheel speed, so you have a more accurate impression of how good their maps are.
@@lutherblissett9070 Speed just gives you a more comprehensive sight into what the engine and turbo are doing, and where you are on the compressor map. Pity Garrett is no longer what they used to be - real sad.
Where I buying this
Want one for a 2007 Mazdaspeed 6 k04 original turbo
Are you looking to buy the original turbo or an upgraded turbo?
Papá
You kinda told us nothing, though. Just that different designs can achieve the same overall flow. Who actually has the better compressor designs? Is it the greater number of main blades? Is the splitter blade design generally better? If extended tips and a low tip height are ideal, shouldn't all compressors be made that way? And shouldn't all compressors be made with something like only a 25% strength overhead for the root diameter in order to maximize blade area?
And given all of THAT, if you could put any compressor wheel with any compressor housing onto any turbine wheel+turbine housing combo, and then use any bearing cartridge and housing; What would be your ultimate general combination? Borg turbine and bearing with Garrett compressor wheel? Borg bearing and outside with a custom compressor?
What i did say and made clear was that no blade count is responsible for a single feature or performance characteristic - its ALOT more complex that just slapping on 10 blades or 9 blades .... more than this i wont be able to share.
@@TurboDirectSA Well, generally, which ones are more linear rather than peaky, and which ones are louder?
Im not able to comment
@@Drunken_Hamster
@@TurboDirectSA Why? Have I offended you in any way? Could you at least answer the loudness question? And perhaps which count may be less likely to partial throttle surge in a standard compressor housing? I really like the dose sound off-throttle, which sounds better with standard housings, but I want to run minimal risk of partial throttle surge despite having a standard housing.
@@Drunken_HamsterLoudness question? I dont take offence sir - no idea what you referring to there. Your question is not able to be answered im afraid, there are just too many variables. How long is a piece of string comes to mind.
E.G what does "standard housing' mean exactly? Surge depends on a myriad of things, Blade count isnt really anything that would create or supress surge.
Why not go conic with the design, as opposed to curved? Too heavy?
Blade area, weight, aerodynamics all play a part in this.
Do you still make these wheels where can I contact you the link doesn’t work for your site
www.store.turbodirect.co.za - this link works 100% - please delete cache and let me know.
This link still does not work I have tried it on other peoples devices also and cleared cache the link will not work.
store.turbodirect.co.za/index.php
This worked thank you I will be in contact.
Lots of numbers, no information.
Nope - read the description - VERY limited info on purpose.
If you were to compare a billet 7+7 blade with extended tip to a 11 blade extended tip which would flow more? Great video btw
Its impossible to say unless the designs of each, dimensions and features are visible. More importantly the compressor maps provided. The theory behind the multi blade Gen1 GTX compressor is that more blades do more work .... BUT its not only about the total number of blades, because if it was, why not have 20blades....
Aerodynamics and thermodynamics are extremely complex topics, hence the secrets and lack of information out there in the public space.
@@TurboDirectSA thanks for the reply mate, but I guess I'm somewhat might find out soon as I'm about to replace my 11 blade 60-1 to a 7+7 billet. I have a feeling it's not going to make a much of a difference at 22psi but we'll see
@@joffaalien5518 Keep us up to date please.
Yeah, but we really want to know which one is better. At which r p m's For normal driving and pulling on the road ???
I'll give you a hint....compare the same/similar trim Garrett 11+0 GTX and 8/9+0 Garrett GTX Gen 2 with Borg Warner 7+7 compressor maps and you'll have your answer.
P.S. don't forget the wheel rpm
@@diesel-technology5507 Sounds like you're just selling good feelings and put this on here and feel better. God bless everyone
@@joegelencser2571 the correct answer is pay the professionals who mastered their craft and buy their products, or learn how to do it yourself 😅
@@diesel-technology5507 Do you honestly think I'm that stupid professional? This professional lad I work for 45 years as a tool master tool and die engineer tool designer. You're a little professional b*******Doesn't mean anything to guys like me and the rest of the world