The whole point of dropping a quarter of a billion dollars on IP rights is because there is a large and passionate fanbase, ready and waiting. There's no inherent problem with making a modernised, cosmopolitan fantasy series - but the nature of Tolkien's work is such that modernity is not what these fans value. Tolkien fans value authentic world-building, historicity, immersion, detail, epic lines, imagination, grandiosity, etc. Casual fans exist, sure, but your cultural relevance will be short-lived if you can't inspire a fandom to really invest themselves. As a reader, you should be all too aware that your favorite books will inevitably be adapted by these large studios. They don't seem capable of making OC, so the reboots and adaptations will continue. Those who care about source material should make themselves heard and not be silenced by fear of rabbid identitarians. These worlds are not a 'platform' or a vehicle for 'representation'. They are creations that lifetimes of care and imagination were poured into - they are beloved. A great author's vision should be accorded respect.
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
I am on the fence as to whether I want to watch the show or not. I love LOTR, both the books and the movies, and also thoroughly enjoy The Hobbit (though the movie adaptation for it sits at a 6/10 for me). My biggest concern is that ROP is basically Fan-Fiction. As someone who has read fanfic in the past, I can tell you most of it is not that great. Occasionally, a story will be fantastic, and I do enjoy those… but the fact remains that Fan-Fiction is not canon. It is hard to take things that are not canon seriously. I don’t know… Maybe the fact that they threw over a billion dollars at ROP will make a difference? I am also worried because I have seen a lot of the negative press for the show, and at least some of it seems pretty well deserved. Actors talking about how they have improved on Tolkien’s work, and comments about how they made it more palatable to modern sensibilities has me frustrated. The virtue signaling falls right in line with liberal Hollywood rhetoric, and I worry that ROP just won’t feel like the Middle Earth I know and love.
The Silmarillion actually contains relatively little material about the Second Age. Discounting indices etc., only ~10% of its content (the Akallabêth and the first part of Of The Rings Of Power) relates to it, and the latter of those has very little content that isn't just a rewrite of the relevant LoTR Appendices in narrative form.
ICE Roleplayign game, Rolemaster, did a series of modules in Middle Earth. They chosse 1640 TA as their setting. A lot was going on at the time period, and would have made so much better setting for tv-show.
Great video and good points have been made, as for me I was expecting a good, family oriented, tolkien-vibes show. I never anticipated the show to be canon/lore accurate. Simply for the fact that they do not have the rights to many essential writings to the Second Age. If the show is to be canon/lore accurate, it will be the last things we see during the Last Alliance in the Battle of the Dagorlad, judging from the Appendices. Being a book and film fan - I was surprised how good this show was. I appreciated its level of fantasy catered to all ages, really focusing on family show vibes. The harfoots hooked me. Though I do have issues with Galadriel’s plot choices(Morfydd as an actress is amazing I thought she killed it as Galadriel she was the best choice), I am excited for what we shall see theese characters do in the future. Durin, Elrond, Disa, Celebrimbor so far have been awesome. I was also surprised by how well they summarized the Silmarillion - though it is quite rushed and surface level for backstory - it still adheres to it. The biggest issue for the show I always felt, was the connection of backstory of the 2nd Age and the current story we shall see in the show. Because rights restrict this facet of the show - the creators behind the show need to do some serious legwork to help folks catch up to the main plot of the show. Hence why I feel these first 2 episodes were slow and the tone may come across as “boring”. Regardless where folks stand on this concept, I feel that they delivered, and I feel that the story will become more canon-based as the plot goes on with the show. On premiere, I watched with my parents - which I was scared to do so. They did not read the books, and are solely film fans - and nothing more. Our group rating was calculated to be 8.5 outta 10, and my parents were excited to see what the show would bring. We were happy it was not GoT - as my folks do not appreciate its dark and vile aspects of dark fantasy. My mother really enjoyed Galadriel - my father and I really liked Durin and Elrond’s relationship, we look forward to this show and the story it brings, canon or otherwise
I appreciate your approach to this topic. I definitely agree and i think we should all just enjoy it for what it is. Sadly some will continue to be determined to hate it and be miserable but as for me, I am going to have enjoy the show 😂
But if they love Galadriel from the movies, they have a reason to love her... Her personality, character, dialogue, her design... If the Galadriel from RoP is completely different from the Galadriel from LOTR (even just the one from the movies) then what is there for them to love?
Well, I think we all change as we grow older, and there is thousands of years between Second Age and galadriel in third age...so we'd assume she'd be different and have grown in that time, right?
@@Bookborn Not only you're admitting that it is an assumption, but you also implying that WE ALL would assume so... + the description of Galadriel from before the second age aligns with that of the third age. Are you implying that she had a "phase"?
@@Bookborn Galadriel only fault, when you read the Silmarillion, is that she wants to create her own realm and to do her own thing and be above her peers. In Tolkien's universe this is a whole big thing. Most evil characters have this same nagging urge. But thats about it. She was never stupid, unwise, rash or even driven by anger really. When she rejects the ring from frodo she finally rejects, the thing that Tolkien does not like the most, that is, the will of dominate others. She passes the ultimate test and she finally gets to go to Valinor if she wants.
A reasonable and measured approach to the topic. My criticisms about the early episodes aside for the moment, my big question is why, with the rights they had available, was the decision made to set the show in the second age? If they can pull from the LotR appendices, then there is more than enough third age content to draw from: the War in the North, the Fall of Arnor, conflict between Gondor and the Corsairs, and so on. As to whether this show "feels like Tolkien" or not, my biggest complaint stems from the storytelling style feels nothing like Tolkien at all. Some of the themes are similar, but the show has gone for a "mystery box" style of narrative that has already worn out its welcome. The show's storytelling style comes across more like its intent is to generate online reaction rather than present an engaging, coherent story. It feels like Lord of the Rings by way of J.J. Abrams, which is not doing it for me.
That makes a lot of sense considering the showrunners are Bad Reboot acolytes. Everything JJ has touched that was pre-existing has turned to shit. It only make sense that the people he has trained have the same affect. When will people stop hyping him and his team up? They do nothing but piss people off for corps to make money. Nothing artistic about Bad Robot.
i'm not a book reader, my guess is they started it in the second age just in case they could get more rights in the future and either do a prequel or a sequel. 90% of the decisions that don't make sense to fans of source materials... are usually due to such business/exec considerations.
@@alveolate You’d love Tolkien Untangled if you don’t want the book. Then the lore videos OmarioRPG reacted to. And you’ll love the audiobook by Phoenix Cast
I believe it was set in the Second Age purely because then they could tie the story in with the One Ring, which everybody already knows about. The Kin-Strife, or the doings of Hyarmendacil or the Wainriders just don't have that connection (though I think they'd be absolutely fascinating).
@@stevenlowe3026 Anything they could want to connect to the One Ring they could do with the Third Age material to which they had full rights. Also given the first few episodes of the show, they have barely hinted at the creation of the rings of power. The show's title is about the only clue to wider, casual audience that the One Ring will even be a part of this story.
After what they did with WoT I’m surprised about the open mind you have going into RoP. Good on you. That said, I’ve disassociated myself with the lore for this show and I’m still having a super difficult time with the writing. The dialog, the pacing, the lack of character development…. We’re two hours in to eight and I don’t care about any of the characters and keep getting pulled out with questions I shouldn’t have. 1. Where did Galadriels knife go but suddenly reappeared when It was needed to free her from sinking? 2. How does Gal move around the world so quickly? And how does she cover the distances we’re talking about just on foot? Or breaststroke I guess. Funny how she’s fine when no-one is around but as soon as there are people she’s suddenly tired and needs help. Had they not been there would she have just swam the rest of the way? 3. Did Elrond and Celebrmbor just go for an afternoon stroll to KazaDun? 4. Aren’t dwarves long lived as well? Would 20 years make that big of a difference? And did he send an invite to his wedding to Elrond or did he expect him to just know about it? 5. Why did Arondir go in the tunnel. After 100s of years of ‘keeping an eye’ on the people of Mordor… when the village is destroyed and the crops/livestock hit with some kind of blight, shouldn’t he have spoken to at least one other member of the occupying force rather than just letting them all leave while he investigates the first hint of something that justifies their purpose for the last 300 years? And would they have left without him? 5. Why are we supposed to care about Arondir and Bronwyn? Their relationship doesn’t feel like it matters. 6. Why would they have sent Gal to the undying lands if they knew that she was right? Which it appears Gilgalad did. 7. Where is Gal’s magic? 8. The terrible ‘deep’ moments they keep giving us… how is a boat different than a stone? I dunno, one sinks and the other displaces water. Density, buoyancy, propulsion…. 9. That huge waterfall on the ice wall they were climbing… where was the water coming from? They got to the top and there wasn’t even a stream…. The list goes on. Every scene something pulls me out of the immersion. I’m hoping it gets better but so far its not feeling like Tolkien. Other than that it starts slow. Jeez, they even use the words OK in it. Sorry, but Tolkien would never allow for that. It seems simple and maybe gatekeepy but all Tolkien fans know this to be true. At the end of the day.. everyone should like the show or not like it based on their own taste. We shouldn’t be telling others what to think. I really wish they would have just been more open in the marketing. They could have said from the outset that they weren’t following lore. Instead they went in on how big of a fan each of them is of Tolkien and how they are going to make it better because of inclusivity and diversity. Those things are fine. But the marketing team built a strategy around instigating that type of response and then doubling down on it. They could have just said they didn’t have the rights so it is going to be a loose adaptation. Then nobody could argue against their choices and we’d be left to simply criticize the show, which I personally think they wanted to avoid because they knew people with a critical eye would call out the inconsistencies. Better to just say those people are racists so we don’t look to close. So far a 4/10 for me. The visuals are going to bring me back for episode 3 but if the writing doesn’t improve I can’t see putting any more time into this. At least not until the season has played out and I can hear from others like me if it’s worth binging the rest of the season.
Precisely. I'm also keeping any knowledge I have of the lore separate to my watching of the show - it has to stand on its own because that's all it's allowed to do. But you're so right on the many inconsistencies that are jarring. I watched the first episode feeling like it was a solid 7/10 and the missing 3 were all around Galadriel's behaviour. I feel like each episode I watch will result in 1 less point on my score unless some real intelligent writing and consistency suddenly appears. But that's ok because IMDB (which Amazon owns) is deleting all scores less than 6 so I guess I don't have too far to fall :)
This is well stated and your conclusions are correct. Knowing that much of this story cannot use the stories Tolkien wrote, i.e. The Silmarillion, In watching the first 2 episodes I to did not feel anything for any of these characters. I was told and not shown what was happening. This is ok in literature to a degree but for a movie TV show it opens up the opportunity to expand the "lore". The only scene I really loved was we are introduced to Durin's family. How they showed his children playing and Disa was by far the best part of the first 2 hours. I wish that the rest of the characters were given the same treatment. The second is the bland writing for the elves, ALL of the elves. I loved the depth of how the elves were written by Tolkien. Their motivations and flaws. They are the oldest race and have lived many thousands of years by the time of the Third age. They dominate the events of the First and Second ages. Their motivations in the first two episodes seem very shallow and shortsighted. Galadriel and Gil-Galad do not act or talk like they are great leaders. They seem petty and driven by their base emotions, vengeance and irritation. Leaders and great leaders like Galadriel and Gil-Galad should be are able to empathize with those they rule. They understand that building up their followers strengthens not only those they lead but themselves as well. Being a veteran I know what a good leader can do. A leader is someone that people want to follow. Galadriel's lack of leadership is shown very early in how she is the only one strong enough to fight and might makes right. Her followers lay down their weapons because she is not leading them. She is herding them and using them only to fulfill her need for vengeance. These little inconsistencies in her character that I see make it hard for me to visualize her as the same person as seen in The Lord of the Rings. Making The Rings of Power hard to watch and immerse myself into.
"After what they did with WoT I’m surprised about the open mind you have going into RoP. Good on you." - I think this show actually allows for more of an open mind. For how little material they're able to work from, (licensed), I can only look at this show as a fan fiction show, and I'm ok with that. For me, just seeing fantasy brought to TV with today's tech is a plus. The visuals are definitely here in this show. With that said, I really think Amazon needs to find a new pool of writers, and showrunners, to pull from. Only 3 episodes in and HBO's House of the Dragon has me _FULLY_ invested...in the characters, in the story and the show. Conversely, after two episodes Rings of Power, this show has me thinking that, ok, that was all just set up, let's hope the story takes off in episode 3. And WoT has me feeling this, and a few other harsher feelings, after an entire season. Amazon really needs to take a very hard look at their writers. You just have to look at the Rotten Tomatoes scores to see the difference: User reviews - HOTD = 85%, WoT = 61%, and RoP = 39%. I think you can attribute the vast majority of this on the writing, although I think RoP is getting hit a little harder because of the fan base as well.
@@Perry_Wolf for sure the fan base is going harder… but it’s by far the biggest fan base of them all. And even though Amazon wants to spin it as just racist trolls, the majority of people are like us, just tired of shitty writing in shows and studios patting their backs over diversity. They could have avoided the whole racist thing by being honest about their intent, but they weren’t. They could have had people forgive the lore problems if they were honest, but they weren’t. They had Variety ready to publish the racism take in an article within moments of the first trailer dropping. Amazons’ marketing, and Disney and the rest, lean into a couple bad people and use that to change the narrative away from the real critiques, which have always been around the writing. It allows them to block reviews, dismiss all criticism as racist or phobic, and they still get the hate watchers. Probably higher viewership day 1 because people want to see it fail. The whole system has nothing to do with art or passion. It’s just more politics and corporate greed tearing neighbours apart.
I agree with almost all of your points, i try to see it as a standalone show with no relation to Tolkien but it doesn't go beyond a 7 for me even taking that into account. Visuals are a 9,5 or 10 but narratively speaking is really weak for now at least. If we take in account the lore... things get quite worse then. Am i the only one bothered by elves costumes? Celebrimbor looks like a granny, and Elrond looks like a court bard... they project no elvish feeling at all.
I love the level headed approach you take. What I don't understand is why people are so vitriolic about the show and hate it so much, only to tune in again and again..If I don't like something, I walk away like I did with GoT. I didn't spend time chatting nonsense about it on the Web...
I don't mind if people want to talk about their disappointments with the show...but the absolute vitriol, like you've said, is BAFFLING, especially since it was happening *before the show even aired*. And I completely agree - the best way to show that you don't like something is just...don't watch.
@@Bookborn I'm amazed not many people are talking about the way the RUclips channels poison the well on everything they supposedly love. You are right when you say it was damned befo4e it started but this trend happened with Star Trek, Star Wars and now LotR. Some RUclips creators go in negatively from the start, before anything is known, saying 'this will be a dumpster fire' just to get clicks. Manchild purist who should know better start nitpicking and then as the release dates close in they ramp up the negativity for clicks, people who have only seen the films bark on about 'lore' like they are professors and they kill the thing that others may love just so they can feel better about being in the herd of naysayers... The shining is the greatest horror film ever made. It bears no resemblance to the books...I thank god there were no youtubers around in the 70s.
@@eglib499 Enough of the hyperbole mate. No-one has spat in you face. As the lovely lady in the video said, We knew there were no rights to the material that makes up the Silmarillion, they have to scrape together a story that doesn't get them sued and also pleases the widest range of viewer's. If you honestly thought the PotR was going to satisfy the whim of every purist and also salve the head canon that people make in their own minds, then it's not the production that has to alter, its some people's concept of reality.
I understand the vitriol present. Fans have followed the production news of this show for multiple years - many since 2017 when the announcement was made. The secrecy at which Amazon Studios approached this production was very misleading to the fan base. Throughout the years 2017-2021 the show leaked very little material. BUT - and this is RELEVANT - what they did leak was pictures of the island of Numenor and the Two Trees. These pics led fan bases around the world to ponder that the show had the rights to The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. RUclips Tolkien content sites were filled with excitement & chats about what “Lord of the Rings on Prime” might be about and depict given access to those books. That speculation went on for a year+ before the show’s first trailer and magazine interview in Feb 2022. The show WAS NOT open about the rights they had until Feb 2022. That’s when “all hell” broke out. THAT’s when fans judged they were deceived and that’s when the anger started pouring out. So if you weren’t following news on the show, it’s possible you wouldn’t comprehend the intensity of the anger nor why the anger even existed. Amazon should have been more interactive with the worldwide fan sites and admitted what rights they had purchased instead of sitting quietly letting the sites speculate about the Silmarillion/Unfinished Tales canon. The announcement of the limited rights could have come a long time ago - instead of 180 days before launch.
It's sad the licence rights for this portion were sold separately allowing this to proceed... It's just so far outside Tolkiens work. The Hobbit movies were bad but not this blatantly insulting to the legacy source material..
I think your basic premise here is incorrect. All the basic information to cover the story they are going for is technically in the appendices and leavened into the LOTR proper, and so within the rights Amazon actually purchased: Numenor, the history of the making of the rings, Sauron and the fall of Numenor, the last battle, etc. Also even the names of kings and queens, and the detailed chronologies of the second age that the show completely ignored for some valid reasons like “how do you keep interest in a long series where all the non-elven characters would have to die off every few episodes?” Answer - compress the events and characters together in time. Even for example the Two Trees from well before the first age are there, as well as a sketch of the first age history - both used for flashback material. So IMHO the specific rights were never the issue, as weird as that contract was. Seems like by all logic the rights to the Silmarillion, which would have been more on the nose, should have been far cheaper, but I don’t know what or how either Amazon or the Tolkien Foundation were thinking. Maybe the show runners just REALLY wanted to get Gandalf in there somewhere. 😂 The entire issue is that the show runners don’t seem to have any knack of capturing the feel of the original material, which is typically the core and essence of why people love Tolkien. It’s a fairy story, and as Tolkien himself pointed out in written form during his lifetime fairy stories obey certain rules that make them work and FEEL the way the do. Break certain rules and poof, the magic disappears. If you don’t understand this then probably you have no right telling a story in the that fairy universe and setting. And the problem has nothing to do with being “woke” or filling out the edges of the world Tolkien left blank, or even changing things some people cling to as canonical. The problem in my view is they break the rules Tolkien himself set out for how these stories work. And I don’t think you need to have this kind of literary, high level perspective or even have read Tolkien’s “On Fairy Stories” to appreciate this - the average Tolkien fan will get this right always by feel alone. This rule breaking happens constantly though the TV series, and I could go on for a long time and in detail. But one of the biggest examples is the treatment of Sauron. Tolkien stated that any “knowing winking” or subtle self-awareness and mockery in the telling of the story drags it out of the realm of Faerie into our mundane world, turning it into something else. So far the GRRM material on HBO completely avoids this kind of thing, which is one reason why that stuff holds up well. Tolkien was referring to a somewhat different scenario, but I’d like to think he would agree that suggesting that Sauron is conflicted, or just a guy that maybe suffered in the past, or maybe is the way he is because of psychological reasons is “winking”. It’s dragging a modern construct into a fairy story. It is Sauron as Tony Soprano. Personally I love deconstructive retellings of fairy tales, but those are NOT the fairy stories themselves and certainly work differently. But fundamentally the reason a lot of people instinctively hate the Amazon series, IMHO, is that they can feel the mockery inherent in the attempt of the show runners to both have their fairy story, and deconstruct it at the same time. However I do think a lot of people are not that great at analyzing the ultimate source of those negative feelings, and often tend to flail about in their criticism - in my humble opinion. But I feel like if you look at things from the point of view of Tolkien’s own analysis of how such stories work it is easier to understand what is going on. It is not JUST changing “beloved” characters like Sauron and Galadriel - it is changing them in a winking or knowing way, that Tolkien said mocks the internal validity of the secondary world, and so sucks the magic out of the story. But of course I will watch it. I actually hope they can do a little better in the future. And even with my reservations I do want to “see what happens next”. And probably it is unfair to expect to get filet mignon when you walk into a McDonald’s/Watch TV - but a guy can dream. As a last stand there is always Hate Watching, which has a pleasure all its own, but also does not follow the usual rule for enjoying fairy stories.
Should this show exist? absolutely. otherwise, fan fiction wouldn't exist either. Art has a right to exist, even when based on other works, such as adaption. Do people have to like it? no, that'd be some 1984 level stuff, right there
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
House of the Dragon without the rights to Fire and Blood would be such a hilarious mess that I can confidently say it wouldn't work as an adaptation. It would feel like Rings of Power feels where there's some recognizable stuff, some characters names you're familiar with, but ultimately it's not even an adaptation, it's fanfic. That's not saying RoP is good or bad, just that as an adaptation of the source material it's a complete and utter failure. It isn't even fair to expect a legitimate adaptation for this show because they have so little to go off of and can't even directly reference things in the First and Third Ages. I actually question why Amazon even dumped all of this money into this show without having the rights to more of the books. Personally I don't have high hopes for RoP after watching the first two episodes but it will hopefully improve. Unfortunately this will never be a good adaptation but could potentially be really good Tolkien fanfiction.
Some changes are necessary for an adaptation. However if they ignore/violate the established cannon I don't see the point of getting invested. If anything goes what's the point? They could have Captain Kirk show up on Middle Earth and tell us this the official new cannon that we have to accept now but I won't buy into it.
> "it's like them saying hey I'm gonna go make a Mistborn movie without having the rights to Mistborn that would be crazy, so no that's never happened" ... actually, there were the licensing obligations when it came to productions of "Star Trek" since 2009; when Paramount and CBS had rights to the franchise, but split between TV shows and movies before the divisions were merged again. Reference the "25% different" argument. Or the "The Sandman" stuff where they didn't have rights to the character of John Constantine, neither the Matt Ryan depiction from the CW or the Keanu Reeves depiction and instead just decided to double up on Jenna Coleman. And even pronouce the name differently to the way Constantine's creator Alan Moore pronounced the name. Or modern "Star Wars" productions where a cut of merchandising and licensing relating to original pre-Disney-Lucasfilm material goes back to not-Disney, so let's minimise those characters. And for that matter, I refer you to the hideous case of the AppleTV "Foundation" series filth by David S. Goyer and the original Asimov books. Licensing? Apparently not, and yet the adaptation is a disgusting perversion of everything the books stood for, so. So really hate to tell you this, but YES IT IS CRAZY AND YET IT'S HAPPENING. "Crazy" is the new stupid normal now. > "has enough lore to support a lifetimes of movies and TV shows made about it companies can't ignore that as our friend Logan Nine Fingers would say you've got to be realistic" ... I really have to stop posting comments partway through videos. Look, I don't mean to be rude here, but "you've got to be realistic" has to give way to ACTUAL RECORDED EVENTS OF HISTORY. I never thought I'd say this to anyone, ever, but go watch AppleTV's "Foundation" television series and have I got news for you, Goyer and Apple IGNORED THE HELL OUT OF THE BOOKS and lied through their disgusting oh-so-kickable teeth about it. They even lied about Asimov's motivations behind the books. > "and how many fans are just happy to revisit Middle Earth" Even my housemate interrupted me watching this with "it's called fanfic. Some people just like it, don't need to be bullied into it and even write it for free". Henry Jenkins, Provost Professor of Communication, Journalism, Cinematic Arts and Education at the University of Southern California wrote in a NYT article of 1997, “Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by corporations instead of by the folk”. > "the showrunners have been very open about what Canon they do and do not have the rights to, they have not been trying to pretend that this is New Canon" ... Vanity Fair article reads "Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?". The DAY AFTER YOU RELEASED THIS VIDEO, ScreenRant released an article titled "Rings Of Power:10 Best Changes From Canon So Far, According To Reddit". Forget an inch. I was a MILLIMETRE away from hitting the Subscribe button, because I saw your videos about differences between the books and the show and I was going to settle in and watch all five episodes. And then I saw THIS video and thought "no wait, I'll watch this one first". And I'm super-glad I did because I just saved myself the watching time. You're justifying this series. You're justifying the kind of logic that allowed Apple and David Goyer to get away with the faux "Foundation" TV series. That show was a diseased abortion and should never have been allowed to exist. Everything should be done to prevent it getting a second series. I watched the whole thing and it *hurt*. I'm now working on reading the books and becoming an LOTR fan of a grade similar to my Asimov fandom. And every single thing I've heard or seen about "The Rings Of Power", down to the interviews and PR, is grade-identical to "Foundation". The single most disrespectful thing I'll say about you is "when considered next to what I've heard and seen of Rings Of Power, I have to ask whether you've partaken of that sweet sweet Amazon thirty pieces of silver". And I really hope that you have not. I quick-skimmed the transcript of your Differences video episode 5 to see quickly whether your position had changed. It's encouraging that you've recognised the lack of progress in the show, but that you keep being "blown away" by this show - even episode 5 - is... unfortunate. The lack of plotting or character development - from a channel called "BOOKBORN"... I hoped you wouldn't have been swayed by the stupid visual glitz and focussed on the important parts. The parts Amazon were desperately trying to get people to be hooked on as the first hit.
One of the things that annoys me is that the VERY same people that have called Tolkein racist for decades ("bc Orcs are DEFINITELY black people" which says a LOT about the people who believe that and very little about Tolkein, who DID have black nations on the evil side and is pretty explicit in describing them as victims of Numenorian aggression and Sauron's manipulation... rather than actually being evil themselves. Modern critics of Tolkein ALSO often accuse him of racism through his use of historical suppositions, that is implying that Tolkein shares the worldviews of his creations in their opinions or linguistic idioms that apply to "African" peoples, or the people that populated far Harad that were unequivocally based on African cultures... I could rant more, but I'll stop. I'm abusing parentheses!) and NOW declaring his works inclusive and diverse, and that anyone who disagrees is a racist. It's all very convenient, as always. I stick by my initial observations: Making cosmopolitan populations in fantasy and scifi is not a bad thing... but it IS a stylistic choice that limits the exploration of those themes. THAT can easily be overcome by replacing HUMAN "racial" tension ("race" is a loaded and ambiguous concept, where I disagree with basically everyone on any given thread despite having a milquetoast and considered opinion of my own: that it's largely a social construction, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and isn't important. A racial category can include "genetic traits" but it's hardly immutable and such groupings can be as broad or as exclusive as a speaker wishes. Hell the idea of "whiteness" changes based on historical and geographical context, and lumping all dark skinned people into a few terms is just as ludicrous. Americans calling all black people "African American" pisses me off, and I'm only RELATED to black, mixed race, Brits. They aint African OR American, amigos) Stormlight has shade of eye colour, Mistborn has entirely different ("engineered") races. You can use those to explore racial tensions without being too on the nose. But often these very shows want to have their cake and eat it too. Represent a diverse, multicultural world... but ALSO have such characters behave as if they share experiences with their real world analogues. That can be jarring if it isn't narratively justified. (though it's more common on gender politics. Leia being pissed that men don't take her seriously and giving girl boss energy made sense. Her back story totally justifies it. Rey doing the same crap despite growing up hunting for scrap in a desert... not so much) The Sandman show has been great so far (I'm only a few eps in. The Death actress is amazing. I love bubbly Death and her tribute to Pratchett) but casting black actors in historical Britain means that landmine can't REALLY be explored (even if a character explicitly talks about the slave trade) Again, no bad thing as it doesn't feel like a subject Sandman is for or about... but I can imagine it drawing criticism for "whitewashing" WoT made the same mistake imo. "Diverse" casted its way into an emptier, smaller world despite ALSO choosing to adapt in such a way that diversity could have been achieved more naturally. (as I said at the same, I'd have been all for an "all mixed race" Two Rivers heading into "white" Andor, multicultural major cities and ethnic borderlands. Visual storytelling really benefits from that shorthand and diversity is ABOUT exploring and celebrating differences, not pretending there are no differences. When creating OR developing, these choices should be conscious and intentionally. All too often it's just a mess of box ticking. And that's a shame, bc it does a disservice to the actors AND to the very concept of representation. "it's all made up, so it doesn't matter" is often a justification I see... from people with no creativity or interest in exploring beyond skin deep. Imagine if RoP had explored how Sauron captures the cultures outside of middle earth. How miscegenation on the borders of Gondor caused tension and divided loyalties which he exploits. Imagine if the skin colour of Elves were relevant to their history. Elves that returned from Valar being lighter (or darker) skinned, those who never saw the light of the trees LOOK different. *mind blown* (and anyone who would suggest that this division meant one was superior to the other has never read the lore. The Elves are not an innocent people. Plenty of blood on those hands and a LOT of tragedy bc of it) I just think "Hollywood diversity" is a poor replacement for the real thing.
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
Once you decided to call something 'Lord of the Rings' then it's polite to try to satisfy the fans (and this is a huge IP with lots of fans) as well as the 'general public'. If you don want to try to please the fans (and ignoring the extreme shills... those requests could have been achieved, plus the show made watchable for all, plus have diversity), why bother? If you just want to put the middle finger up to a strong section of the fanbase (and why would you do that when there are clearly other routes that could have been taken)... why not just call your expensive new fantasy something else?
Visually, pretty Tolkien. Dialogue... Not as much. Acting, okay with no real standouts. I would have been happy if they had the rights to the Silmarillion and put this kind of budget into it along with suitably talented writers. I don't believe in calling it Lord of the Rings if they do not have sufficient rights. Maybe Middle Earth instead. Named after the setting instead of a specific story.
This show is objectively terrible. The writing is amateur and embarrassing. It does not feel like Tolkien in the slightest. Every metaphor or analogy is a facsimile of depth and meaning when it is truly just nonsensical word salad that falls apart if you look too closely. The dialogue is just as bad. There are too many moments to count where they tell you instead of show you things. It is also filled with maid and butler dialogue. The plot is slow and disjointed. The pay offs are few and far between. There are long stretches where nothing happens and then tiny spurts where too many things happens at once. There is also no sense of time. Sailing to Valinor would take months, it would be a completely different season by the time Galadriel swam far enough back to find those castaways and be discovered by the sailors. (As completely unlikely as that was) But that passing of time isn’t shown. In fact, all the timelines of the characters don’t seem to connect. Elrond and Celebrimbor walking 100 miles from Eregion to Khazad-dûm on foot in sandals and the same clothes with no sign of supplies or being travel worn even though it would take them days to do so is another example of poor timeline management. They all witness the comet but that’s about it on linking these timelines together. and they honestly make no sense with each other and on their own. I could go on. I don’t even have to mention the lorebreaking or the terrible casting choices (Galadriel and Celebrimbor especially) to demonstrate the awfulness of this show. The lazy writing is just one aspect. But it is enough to determine that without a doubt this objectively does not feel like Tolkien. No. I don’t think this show should have been made without the rights. As to why not? Well, I do not agree with using a beloved author’s name to chase clout. I think creators, alive or not, deserve more respect than that because that’s having integrity and mutual respect.
to be fair; a super realistic and close as possible to cannon show would not be economically viable. Cynically speaking; generic fantasy show normies will watch will work for amazon if WoTv worked ( i still can’t believe people liked that show..). people will watch anything even if it’s background noise while they look at their phones. Another question might be ; will we ever get another visit to middle earth that will rise to the level of Peter Jackson’s trilogy? Has factory produced genre tv shows poisoned the well?
Short answer: no (but not why you think) Super fans are the worst. They would rather have nothing rather than something. There is no way your ideas about what you read and mine are the same. This show is possibly my favorite. You do yourself a disservice by wanting each telling or version to be the same. Every perspective is different. If lord of the rings wasn’t in the title and If this show wasn’t related, you would love it. Also cannon? Tolkien changed his mind all the time. There is no cannon. I’m just sick of fans. They act like gate keepers who refuse to allow people to enjoy things if it’s not up to the fans standards. Fans are the problem. Stop being a fan and start enjoying different visions of these stories. It’s like talking to two different witnesses of the same event. There memories are different. The things they know are different. Their embellishments are different. Anyway I get it that fans won’t like what I said but the truth is that if fans were honest with themselves they would see they are probably just unwilling to open up to a different perspective than their own.
Absolute praise to you for trying a positive spin on the series. I tried the first episode and was perplexed. Stunning visually for the most part. Unfortunately, the actress Morbid Clarke destroys any joy with her dialogue and acting. Found the fast forward button on my remote, more stimulating. I have no problem with making Galadriel the central character, even bend the lore BUT the actress is bleh.... WHERE is the magic? The W O W This episode felt how I feel while waiting for my wife to decide what to wear on our evening out. She looks beautiful in every outfit but cannot make up her mind. 2 hours pass by... The fashion show was great, but we haven't gone anywhere. BTW, is it just me or was most of the first episode made up from the teasers?
What a fantastic video!! You explained it all perfectly and with very reasonable and well put arguments!! I mean, I gotta say, after all you said, I think we can take the rings of power as if it were a fan fiction. Amazon or anyone wouldn’t say that because of the bad publicity it would give the show, but I agree with the people that say that fan fiction, after all, is a very valid form of storytelling. And we can’t pretend anyone can just write in the world of any author a story that could be considered canon, specially if the author is dead and can’t approve that. I think that belief, the one that canonical stories could be made of a world already created by another person, would undermine the individual value of each author, the one that makes them unique and therefore makes the artistic work also unique since that uniqueness of the author is poured into the book. So basically, The Rings of Power is the most expensive fan fiction that has ever existed. I think that with that mindset people would enjoy the work a lot more. After all, fan fiction is the tool we (the audience of any work) have to put a part of ourselves in the works we love without undermining the creator’s rights to said work. I hope I didn’t explained myself badly. Anyway, great video again!! :)
No, I COMPLETELY agree with you! Fanfiction gets a bad rap but it's a completely valid form of storytelling; and most importantly, people need to understand that it doesn't negate the real thing. That still exists.
If they had marketed it as such, none of the bad discourse the show is currently facing would be happening. They chose not to market it as what it really is, in order to get the interest of a wider audience. A very disingenuous move in my opinion, and I believe nobody should be expected to be prepared to accept it as fanfiction when they marketed it as an adaptation. And so it should be judged as an adaptation.
@@AmeenRidwan I doubt the discourse wouldn’t have happened since most of it is based on stupid people complaining about women and black people (and those problems wouldn’t be stopped with more clarification from Amazon since people would still have ignored that in order to let their prejudices out). Also, I agree that it is not a nice move not to promote it as a fan fiction bu that’s literally what it is. We can’t judge it as an adaptation since it’s not adapting anything, and it is not adapting anything because they do not have the rights to do so. The fact that Amazon chose to market it as one way because profit doesn’t mean people should say something that is not true and keep spreading it, and they have said like a thousand times that they don’t have the rights to the Silmarillion so it’s not like a hard thing to do research of. Hell, this video is very informative and is just 9 minutes long.
@@Antonio-oc8ub This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
@@Antonio-oc8ub Are you serious? Go watch the super fans re-uploaded video to understand the vitriol... And just because people don't enjoy tokenism doesn't place their prejudice with the racists...
I mean honestly, I would have entirely no issues with this if they presented it, advertised it and outright said that the show was a fabrication and or their own rendition of a story inspired by Tolkien's works and set in the world of Tolkien, essentially just admitting to fan fiction, as opposed to supposedly being the story of the rings of power. That's my hot take. If they just outright stated that this work was fan fiction, I think most if not every rational take on this show would have to be from the perspective of, oh, it's not canon and it's not even really relevant. I think people would be able to enjoy it more from all around. Personally, however, I think that this is just a bastardization of what little rights they have to any of the intellectual property and, as you said, a money grab. Because let's be honest, that's all most big corporate businesses care about is the money. How much money can I make by (sorry not sorry) stealing from other people. If we're totally honest, we know that Amazon created an Amazon's basics and you've heard the stories of people who had shops with products, but the Amazon Basics practically made them obsolete or competed (on their own store with their own version of the product) with unfair advantage. So really it's just fitting to see Amazon take something that just isn't theirs and ruin it with woke ideation, diversities, and non-canonical and political controversy, which they know that they will get attention and reaction from. I swear, everything has been politicized and infected with some kind of demagoguery, some sort of vile and pernicious evil, while ironically not necessarily outright or based on the sole grittiness of the content itself, but rather the issues of truth and honestly. The literal application of integrity and respect to the context of accuracy to be found in the source content. No wonder the game of telephone is so true to application in everything we do. There are so many people who cannot repeat what they just heard. And while some form of argument might say that such a statement is just horrible or controlling and manipulative, that it's something of oppression . . . well, as Delores' Umbridge once said (and perhaps ironically, the only thing she ever likely said that actual held any kind of ground as a principle of stating), (we) must have order. We don't need facism, or socialism, or communism . . . but we do need some form or rule of law. We need to be able to respect each other and choose to live in some kind of harmony, else there would be lawless chaos. However, this comment has clearly broken the realm of tolkien and evolved into other stages, or rather other ages of discussion, beyond the realm of Tolkien. The truth in my eyes (or rather, my opinion) is that this "Rings of Power" show, is nothing more than a gaff and a money grab based on the works of Tolkien and intermixed with modernism, which really pulls you from the narrative. What we really want and need is more Peter Jackson. His changes and additions were more tasteful, humorous, and cool, as opposed to woke and incredibly controversial. Yes, I know that even Jackson's films broke canon to some degree, but I'd rather have some smaller (though still relatively, perhaps, large) changes, than huge character/world breaking (in the realm of canon) scenarios. Again, I do realize that Jackson did not run the tightest with the narrative, but the points goes beyond what I have the patience to try and respectfully write, due to the nature of the world and the fact that everything seems to bleed into the realm of politics and the state of our ever fallen world.
I heard that the Tolkien estate was actually the one who approached Amazon to ask that they buy the rights. Supposedly, they couldn't just sell the rights to the Silmarillion by itself, because there was an option in the contract of the studio or whatever that already had the LotR rights that said they(with the LotR rights) would get first dibs on the Silmarillion rights if the Silmarillion rights were put up for sale. So, by having someone(Amazon) buy the LotR rights, then Amazon may have also obtained first-dibs on possibly buying the Silmarillion rights in the future. Or something like that? I have also heard that Tolkien's son DESPISES the LotR movies, and thinks the movies were not sufficiently faithful adaptations, or such. (And Amazon has allegedly been working very closely with "world-renowned" Tolkien experts and the Tolkien estate to make sure that, while they don't put anything in the show that is only in the Silmarillion and thus not within their legal rights to touch, they also don't put anything in the tv show that directly contradicts anything in the Silmarillion either; although, obviously, many people are debating how successfully they have actually done so or not thus far.) So I am wondering if perhaps, like I once saw someone else postulating elsewhere on the internet, maybe it is actually true that Amazon may be on the hook to try and produce a tv show that pleases the Tolkien estate(NOT that pleases LotR fans) in the hopes of also securing the right to the Silmarillion proper ... in the future? But I haven't done my own research to actually verify any of those claims or not-I'm just saying, if those claims are even remotely true, then that hypothetical/theory could actually make a lot of sense. (Like, it might be necessary, that this tv series HAS TO EXIST in order for there to even be any chance of a Silmarillion adaptation ever existing also-and maybe this was the best way to go, rather then just re-adapting the LotR or Hobbit? I dunno 😅 🤔🤔🤷♀️😁)
I honestly WISH I could get to the bottom of the whole "rights" thing. I have no idea what the real story is, and I just truly don't think the info is out there (I've tried to research but have only seen theories). I have also heard taht Chris Tolkien hated the movies. I don't think he liked all the fighting since he views his fathers work for the themes. I get that...but I also love the movies LOL (I do think the books are better tho...)
@@Bookborn Alas! ~Maybe someday it'll all come to light. (We can dream, anyhow.) Yeah, I guess we'll see how well the RoP tv series holds up the themes or not. 😁 But Saame, thoughh; I also love the movies, but can totally understand someone[ especially someone close to the author] feeling differently about what the strongest take away(s) from any story should or shouldn't be, and that's totally fair too. ((I haven't read the books yet myself[ except for The Hobbit and a little bit of the Silmarillion], but considering how most adaptations usually compare, I really don't doubt they are better-plus, from what I have heard about the books from people who have read them. Lol))
With an IP that helped to define what the 20th century understood as fantasy and an author who wrote the lore before the stories, lore, canon and accuracy matter. That's why Jackson's movies resonated and became cultural markers. He did his best to respect and honor the author and his creation. Amazon is making generic fantasy using middle earth names.
LORROP feels like the movie Willow (World) had a baby with Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream (Dialogue tone) as performed by the highschool drama department, who invited Marvel to babysit Galadriel (PEWPEW Protagonist). But my 7 year old likes it so I'll watch it.
Thsnks for your view on this. From my point of view, I liked some (few) of the characters. I liked the visuals, but found many situations just silly, like Galadriel swimming the Sintering Seas or Elrond and Celebrimbor just leisurely walking to meet the Dwarves. The elves in Harad frlt like a Roman garnison patrolling Hadrian's Wall. I felt strangely disconnected from Middle Earth. So while this show may have some good moments, it never feels like Tolkien's secondary world to me
Middle-earth is a Star Wars style media empire now. All of the media properties have diverged from the books in some way. LOTR:TROP is far from the worst Tolkien media tie in--recall those terrible 1970s cartoons
If you do a little research on Tolkien, he wanted to define "English Heroic Romance" a.k.a. English fantasy. Well, he succeeded. So can Amazon create a story fantasy story in middle-earth? Well yeah, that's why Tolkien created such a rich universe. I think the real question is if this will be a good story worthy to be included as part of the myth. Hey, there dozens of conflicting stories about the Knights of the round table. We can stand to have two about Galadriel and Elrond...
Excellent point about King Arthur, although for some reason Tolkien's fans in particular get so worked up about his "intentions", whereas Arthur has a less clear lineage to a single author. But thank you for the reminder that Tolkien was interested in English Mythology, and if there's anything with mythology, there's multiple versions.
I think there are two ways this show should exist: 1) Adapting what the author did write (there are always little changes and interpretations, that's fine) 2) Making a heavily inspired show but make this clear. Using the name of someone else and not trying to show his work is a betrayal A betrayal on the author (who couldn't even defent himself any more, in this case) A betrayal on the fans. And this might be even worse for "casual" fans because they will probably not know that they didn't get what they wanted. A self betrayal on all creators involved which never will know if there did good work. For this reason I think a "Rings of power" show could/should exist but not the one that does exist
I love those books. The first time I read the Hobbits I was 8 years old in 1968. Since then I have read the Legendarium several times. I will not watch the show because it has almost zero connection to Tolkiens books. Tolkien is about language and the language in this film is really bad. I find the dialogues of the elves ridicolous and nonsensical. The elves specially Gilgalad seem to be humans. They are shown either as lifeless whimps or fascistoid dictators who terrorize humans because 1000 years ago they helped Morgoth. They break Tolkiens lore so needlessly, like the story with her brother. BTW they never name him and she had three of them who all died in the first age. If she had taken this ship she would have found Finrod alive and well in Valinor since he was immediately reincarnated after his sacrifice to Beren. He did not die in battle, but he was killed by one of Saurons werewolfes when he helped Beren and Luthien. Galadriel actually had two brothers who perished in the battle of sudden flame?, but now Amazon needed to bastardize Finrod Felagunds story instead. I was weary. But I waited and watched two episodes. I have enough. It is stupid to watch Galadriel down a boat in the middle of the ocean. It is enough.
That and Finrod was first to discover men and he played and sang mystical songs to them that summoned numerous beautiful things to life around them. This is also where the Edain came to be and become the Faithful Numenoreans later on. Of the first 25 kings including Tar-Minyatur who was Elros-Elrond’s Twin Brother and that’s a whole other story which ties in Maglor and Maedhros!
As someone with not a deep knowledge of Tolkien books, but someone who enjoyed watching adventures on LOTR and The Hobbit, if the show is good and has that same vibe from LOTR , that's good enough for me, we shouldn't care that much about who made it if it's good and enjoyable :).
I am curious as to your opinion about other people adding to someone else's IP, though from this video I think you are ok with it. If some company were to now decide that they are going to expand the Lord Ruler's story from the diary notes of mistborn and create a series out of it....obviously if they didn't have BS's permission to do that then it would be illegal...but is it any different if they did that after many years with permission from his descendants? Should anyone (including the authors descendants) have the right to make changes to the authors work after he has died?
In fairness, I personally wouldn't. I'm just saying it's inevitable. There will always be someone who WILL do that, because companies want to profit from it. That's why I say technically this show doesn't exist...but because it does, I'm giving it different metrics to judge since they don't have the rights. Idk if that makes sense. In my perfect world, where I was Lord Ruler, all adaptations would be as close to the book as possible 😁
I am surprised that for as much money as Amazon paid the appendices is all they bought. Given this the showrunners needed to use a lot of creative license for this show. And I have enjoy the first two episodes. How would Tolkien have thought of this show? He would have hated it. His son Christopher Tolkien hated the Peter Jackson movies.
It has nothing to do with money - the Tolkien estate refuses to sell the rights to anything else (JRR sold the LOTR rights ages ago so they have less control over that)
NO!!!!!! just because you can does not mean you should. Tolkien fans wanted to see Tolkien's works, not poorly written fan fiction. New viewers that watch this show will think Tolkien is trash and be turned away from his real works, not knowing that his real works are actually good. This show also has a lot of woke themes in them that have nothing to do with Tolkien. I would recommend this show to toxic feminists that need to see weak/incompetent males and Mary Sues in order to relate to the show.
That and he loved women and his works had many powerful female characters. Powerful in various ways. And even male characters had power, of will, of goodness, of fairness, patience, forgiveness, will to protect etc etc. need I remind people Of Edith. His tombstone together with hers says Beren and Lùthien. And each stone also has the crest. One for Berens line and Lùthien’s House Of Thingol!
Even if the creators had zero rights to Tolkien this show would still be pathetically poor. Four episodes in and the plot still hasn’t advanced much not to mention the awful costumes and boring characters. Now adding Tolkien’s name adds more pressure to produced something fantastical.
I like some of the characters, but I'll agree that not much has happened. Episode 5 is a turning point for me: if threads don't start coming together, I don't understand how they are going to pull the season together as a whole.
As someone who has read all the books and watched all the movies it does not feel like Tolkien to me. There are multiple lore breaking reasons but maybe I know to much. It would be like if we got a Harry Potter series about Harry teaming up with Voldemort to kill Grindalwalt only to find out Dumbledoor is the dark lord. The point is yes cannon matters.
@@Bookborn I’m still going to see if there are some surprises in store for us in the future. I don’t mind adaptations doing there own thing but so far it’s been a bit rough
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
@@squaeman_2644 I agree with you 100 percent in this case it seems they have really dropped the ball. but I’m also not against a new artistic vision of things of it is respectful and even brings new life into a series. It’s a tough one for sure in this case I think we both agree on this one as far as I’ve seen this should have not been made. I’m also a very big fan of Tolkien as I study Proto indo European language. His translation of Beowulf is underrated and his work for language as a whole is largely over looked. At least as you pointed out we still have his English crafted mythology.
@@gregcarter9616 Agreed I love the Jackson trilogy, but also can agree and share Christophers frustration when he said they turned it into a kid friendly action movie. I understand the omission of Tom Bombadil and even the scourge of the shire. But some of the character changes are just jarring and less forgiving. (Such as Aragorn, Gimli, Faramir...) But like I said it still holds a special place in my heart as the best adaption of middle earth because they ended up retaining the themes and overall story rather than something like Aragorn or Gandalf going up against Sauron for revenge for him killing their brother or something... Like it's totally ridiculous to even associate this with Tolkien.
It already was public domain in our hearts. The thousands of hearts around the world. Many of which since childhood having the many books read to us as children. This man wasn't iust some fiction writer. He was giving back a mythology to England and pre England and Reviving culture to those surrounding lands. The man was a master linguist.
Yeah I'd say I agree with you. It's totally valid for people to have critiques and if the changes from lore are simply too much for you that is totally valid but that doesn't inherently make the show bad or people who enjoy the show stupid or fake fans. I think it feels like middle earth to me so far.
Yes, exactly this. I’m all good for people being like “this crosses a line for me and I’m not interested in watching or supporting” but being absolutely horrible online and not allowing other opinions is so tiring
I think a huge one thing too with House of the Dragon and Rings of power was how they initially promoted it, whilst HOTD was promoting the actual show and it’s story ROP spent a lot of it’s promotional material on how adverse and political correct it would be
Yeah. It wasn't clear at first but it's becoming abundantly clear that they have no problem making her extremely boring and always right. Yawn. No character development whatsoever.
It's not exactly a money grab, it's Jeff Bezos' pet project. It has been widely reported that Jeff Bezos wanted his "Game of Thrones," and his involvement in the production of the "Rings of Power" confirms those rumors (just look at his twitter profile and all his pics with RoP stuff). Also, Amazon spent a mindboggling amount of money to buy the rights and make the series. It's the largest budget ever for any film or TV series, or any entertainment product really. The other factor is that Amazon Prime is not your typical streaming service. Its role is to support Amazon's core business, its online store, and as such it can operate at a loss indefinitely. No other streaming service has similar status, except for Apple TV+ which supports Apple's sales of devices. So, the main reason RoP exists is to provide content for Amazon Prime which is noticeably weaker in terms of original content in comparison to market leaders, that is, Netflix and HBO Max (both of which have to be profitable and cannot spend Amazon money on a single series, by the way). RoP is then Amazon's prestigious series, exactly like HBO's Game of Thrones, filling the gap in terms of content disparity with Amazon Prime's competitors, and Bezos' pet project with enormous budget. The number of new subscribers, or even profitability of this series is irrelevant. Amazon will make all promised 5 seasons of the series no matter what, despite early Samba TV ratings show that it is much less popular than HBO's House of the Dragon (contradicting Amazon's own statements). In general, this is an unprecedented situation in the entertainment industry, really with no comparison in its entire history.
I guess I would argue on semantics that Bezos wanting a "Game of thrones" is the definition of a money grab since GoT was so wildly successful, you know? But you are right; streaming services are competing for content and because of that they are all rushing to do the next big thing without taking the time it probably needs to actually DO The next big thing.
@@Bookborn For sure. Some time ago I watched video, don't remember whose, unfortunately, with a very astute observation: the next big thing is NOT the next Game of Thrones, but often a wildly different series which happens to find audience and media buzz (like Squid Game on Netflix, Succession on HBO, Severance on Apple TV, or The Boys on Amazon Prime, all wildly different but very popular nevertheless). So modelling TV shows after Game of Thrones (like Amazon did with Wheel of Time and Rings of Power, Netflix with The Witcher, etc.) is a mistake. They just should make good TV shows, period, not imitate others.
It seems so unfortunate to me, if your Average" viewing audience just want to appreciate the Rings of Power as a generic fantasy show, that the series creators chose Middle Earth as a focus. Obviously, it's the most famous of all, so that's why. But there are a thousand other fantasy worlds already out there (in books, games and computer games) that would probably have made a far better basis to "hang" this on, rather than the well-established cultures of Middle Earth.
I think it's hard for readers to accept that, but I remember a LOT of people telling me (even as kids, teens, adults) "I love the Harry Potter movies but don't need to read them". And that's a KIDS book, something that's really accessible. Whereas when you compare to the Silmarillion - a much less accessible work - it makes sense that most of our viewers simply don't care about lore. Which is hard.
Great summary as always. As you posed your question what came to mind is the music industry. Plagiarism is said to be a form of flattery, it is however illegal. Some in the music industry have had legal battles claiming plagiarism. I have gone back and forth on some of those high profile battles too. There comes a point that if your pretending to be something you're not - you should own up to that. As with WoT, if you have the funding and backing of a studio to create an epic fantasy for the big screen, but either cant or don't want to depict cannon, then why pretend or pose that way at all? The answer to you question is in that answer; if the producers are being disingenuous at all and trying to lure viewers into their story because the are posing as something else, then I feel it is wrong and a form of plagiarism irrespective of how lawyers define it. Ice Ice Baby by Vanilla Ice was a plagiarised version of a Queen song, but no one ever felt they were trying to mimic Queen. Rings of Power is posing/pretending to be something it is not and therefore should not be made - at least not as it is presented. Same with WoT, by all means produce them, change title and names and then viewers will say "hey this is very similar to ..." but at least is not the disingenuous products we've been getting. Call it what it is...something like OR the actual thing.
Yeah I don't consider it plagerism since they are giving credit to the thing, but I do think they want to profit off the property without being true to it (which now that I'm typing it may have been your point lol). I did say with WOT that they should've just called it "The Tower" if they wanted to tell Aes Sedai's stories - they could say it was based on the WOT world but not the books. I think it would've been better received.
It's good to see some booktubers speak up about the ridiculousness of this show and the fact that it even exists. And that people will actually defend making a show based on appendices. Or what they have done with Galadriel. How much they have changed the lore. The ridiculous hillary clinton hairstyle that male elves have.
Dude the male elf played by Kip Chapman has the name "Rian" which was the name given to the daughter of Belagund. In Sindarin it means "Queen" (Celebrian//Silver-Queen).
Still like watching this kind discussion. But have not watched an episode of rings of power and I don't feel like watching it. I suppose I'm searching for a reason to watch. But most of the reviews I see are just meh or negative. So I suppose I'm skipping this one.
You’ll love George The Giant Slayer. He is very heart warming and definitely not negative and he also tells amazing life stories at the end of each video full of lessons he’s learned. Or ones he knows we will find funny. But usually always from his life experience from childhood and up
@@Makkaru112 Don't think we share the same taste at all. Just watched one video on his channel. But seeing how many videos related to the LOTR adaptation he has just seems like he is a bit click baity. For casual Tolkien fan like me hearing "no Tolkien" again and again doesn't really mean anything.
Amazon should have negotiated a deal to do a show based on the Stormlight Archive books.....something that hasn't been done before. They should have never touched LoTR and its lore without having the rights to most of the lore.
Sanderson is fiercely protective over his rights (you can look up a great live he did about it) and won’t let a company have his works unless he’s in full creative control. Idk if Amazon Wild be willing to give him that.
@@Bookborn I'm glad he's like that, hope he keeps control over it and never has it get ahead of him or out of control like Game of Thrones did to Martin.
Great perspective. I'm somewhere between "casual fan" and obsessed. Really like the LOTR books, absolutely love the Jackson trilogy, although I realize they are not perfect, but hey, the books are not perfect either. Nothing is. If RoP has a good story, interesting characters I can connect with, I don't care if it's officially canon or not. If they start inserting modern activist "woke" politics into the story and characters, it won't feel like Tolkien or Middle Earth, and I probably won't like it. Haven't watched it yet, but it's on the list.
So far nothing political imo! And I think it's always good to keep in mind "nothing is perfect". When we start putting things on a pedestal, thats when I think we start having a rough time.
I'm kinda confused as to what woke politics means, I hear about it all over the place yet no one actually says what it is, I feel stupid for asking but could you or anyone explain it to me?
@Chad Atchison Woke politics is often used in regards to adaptations that have changed elements on surface level (and occasionally deeper levels) to be accessible and/or inclusionary to a wider audience. A common occurrence is male characters being gender swapped to female and casting POC in the roles of characters that are written on the page as caucasian. Whilst a phenomena in modern days, for the most part, these changes don't affect the story and are nothing more than a creative decision to bring in a more diverse cast/crew and appeal to a broader audience. This is a neutral action coming from a good place, and yet it has been met with both extremely negative and positive reactions, as well as thoughtful criticism and praise of its ideal. Some critics (and praisers) of this phenomena are simply racists/sexists. Pointing only to the change in gender and skin colour without considering whether these changes do or do not affect the story. They will merely be upset (or in adoration) by the diversity and be willing to die on this hill, whether or not the story is 'good.' However, more thoughtful criticism of this phenomena bring up questions about if these changes have unforeseen consequences. For example, Bookborn has a great video on the Strong Female Character trope - which has been in film since the 60s but has seen a boost in popularity in recent years, with MOST Film, TV, and book stories today centring on a ‘Strong Female Character.’ This trope leads to one-note characters that portray traits more akin to males than they do females. They are often skinny and overly attractive, and are physical ‘fighters’ with theirs fists, rather than fighters with their ‘speech, inspiration, or emotional strength.' These characters also tend to fall into the ‘Mary Sue’ trope of which there are many criticisms from both sides of the argument. It has also been pointed out in recent years that commonly, Male characters will be lessened (becoming jerks, idiots, weak, or silly) in order to make the female characters more competent and heroic. This is a poor way to solve a problem and many RUclipsrs have brought up this as not the way to go. Similarly, thoughtful Critics of race-swapping have said that switching the skin colour of a character often neglects to highlight the struggles of skin coloured bigotry or cultural bigotry in the world they inhabit. Most of these stories either ignore race all together or brush it off as a simple ‘don’t be racist’ message that we all agree with and don't need to re-told in such basic forms. If not shallow messaging, then it is implied these fictional worlds live in societies that have ‘solved racism’ which is a disservice to the struggles facing POC today and historically. Hamilton and Bridgeton are often used as example for why racially blind-casting, while a well-meaning idea, doesn’t consider the fact they both stories take place in a period of history that was deep in the slave trade industry and yet they never once discuss it… making us wonder how these POC characters would feel about their fellow POC being traded as slaves. Also similarly to the Female characters trope, ‘white’ characters will be lessened (often becoming villains or close to) in order to make POC characters look better. As with the female character trope, this is patronizing to all characters involved. One should not have to push down someone else to make themselves look better. Anyway, more often then not when you see someone using the term ‘woke’ in a derogatory way, it means they have noticed a work of art incorporating this trend and it sets off frustration within them. While not all, a large number of them do not know how to articulate their thoughts and so, unfortunately, they lean in on racial bigotry to get their point across (though yes, there are also just flat out racists/sexists in the batch as well.) Whilst the more thoughtful critics will make essays, blogs, or lectures on why this phenomena, while a good idea, still has a lot of work to do. Hope this helps :)
Personally no, I don't think this show should have been done as it is. This might take me some time to write as I process my thoughts. I am a fan of JRRT and got into his works through growing up on Peter Jackson's films, so I have a bias hence why its going to some time. I don't think it should exist as it is, and I must emphasize the AS IT IS part. I want more LotR media. I want to sit down, whack it on my screen and say "That was a bloody fine thing I watched." As a writer whose been writing his own novel for over 10 years and went to university for Creative Writing, I have a high standard for writing and don't want to waste my time on something that doesn't make me think that it isn't going to be good. I don't think the show should exist because I don't think the quality of the writing was good. I can't even fully critique the quality of the acting, directing, cinematography etc, because of the restraints they had, because of my view of the quality of the writing. It made me feel like the writers were only in it for the association of having written a story in Middle Earth and not because they had a story they were so passionate to write, that the story was bursting at the seems of their minds and driving out through their fingers and onto the page. And I don't use them not having the rights to The Sillymarilly (or Silmarilion for the normal people) as a reason to them falling short in quality. If anything, it shows a serious lack in judgement if they thought they could write a story about the making of the rings of power based on just a few pages in a book they do have the rights too. When it comes down to it, it shouldn't exist as it is because I think it lacks a creative passion for the story which dropped the quality of the writing amd the fact they don't have the full rights to the story or the age they wanted to tell isn't that helpful, or even that smart.
You make a good debate and do a great job of showing both sides. My heart will always be with the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings series. Once I saw how choppy and how Amazon gutted the Wheel of Time, I could not extend any more trust to them. There are still a bunch of books by Tolkien that I have not listened to or read yet, so I am going to catch up on that instead. Also, I am now about halfway finished with listening to the third short story in the Last Wish of the Witcher series. I had COVID from August the 1st until August the 20th, and I finally got my strength back and my concentration back, so that I no longer fall asleep when I try to listen to audiobooks.
The funny thing is, I think WOT set my expectations SO LOW for the RoP show that now I'm enjoying it because my expectations were at rock bottom 😂 Glad you are feeling better!
One thing I'd keep in mind is that the people actually working on the show will have a bigger impact than "Amazon" will. It's different content creators, show runners, directors, actors, crew etc. and so any poor decisions made you didn't like about Wheel of Time were almost certainly made by people who had no impact on Rings of Power.
@@penmaster003 idk about you but I've met a very wide range of coworkers in my life all of us hired by the same people but all fairly different in temperament, work ethic, style, skill set, background etc. There is some connection sure but not much.
@@tadious9415 I don’t know. It’s all about track record for me. They failed to hire the appropriate people for one show so they had a bad track record. It is not unreasonable to be weary of a repeat offense.
The reason why studios couldn't jump on getting the rights to Tolkien's world is because Christopher Tolkien, who was the head of the estate, was incredibly protective of his fathers work. Its funny that the moment Christopher passed away rights started to be sold off.
I'm probably want you'd call a semi-serious/casual LOTR fan. I seen the movies several times, director's cut, of course. I've read the books (Hobbit + LOTR) multiple times. I own the Simarillion, but I haven't read it . . . yet. I have read the appendices. I can talk on the most basic level about the different ages. And? I'm really enjoying the series so far. (One commenter said it feels like LOTR via JJ Abrams and they're not wrong. But sadly, it's difficult to avoid nowadays. It's kind of the Hollywood method at this point.) What I don't want is for the Simarillion to get sold to a competitor (let's say Netflix) and now we have competing Middle Earth histories. That would get weird. If the question is "should," the answer is "probably not." But it was inevitable.
This comment may be a bit out of chronological order since I did not see your review episodes in order, but I will answer your base question. I have read the Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. I am starting to collect the other works like Lost Tales, Children of Hurin, and Christopher's histories so I hope to read all of them before I depart this world. I enjoyed Peter Jackson's adaptation of the Lord of the Rings, but I had many issues with things changed or omitted. The absence of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are chief among them. He should have at least helped them on their way, rescued them from the wights in Barrow Downs, and given them the Knives of Westernesse. The Hobbit adaptations were far worse and I can watch them, but it isn't enjoyable. I do not have an Amazon membership or a Prime account and I was hoping that the Rings of Power series would be so good and accurate that I would get a subscription just to watch it. Thanks to you and other reviewers that give thoughtful and measured analysis, I will not be wasting my money or my time. Hopefully someone will do a better job in the future. "The road goes ever on and on..."
So is that the reason RoP show runners decided to put together events and characters that are thousands of years apart, because they do not have the rights to The Simarillion? For example; I am reading that the RoP is set around 1100-1200 SA - prior to the creation of the rings and Mordor. If that is true, then how is it Numenor’s main characters Tar-Miriel, Elendil and his son Isildur are present? The first two were not born until after 3100 SA with Isildur’s birth being after 3200 SA. Do not get me wrong, if there is a reason for this retelling, then please enlighten me. I have watched every episode and must say it is nothing short of gorgeous in overall fantastical scenic views. However; as I am not someone that dove deep into the legendarium - it has not been a huge disappointment to me so far. That said; I do know LoTR rather well, so when Galadriel arrived in Numenor I was excited and shocked at the same time when I heard some of the characters call another Isi…I said to myself - wait is that supposed to be Isildur?! How?!
I don't think having the rights for The Silmarillion would have helped much. It's not like you can pick the 25 pages there and really adapt to a TV series. It's 25 page for some 5000 years of middle earth's history. The gaps are to huge to simply fill. Also, you need characters for watchers to folow, you can't do it in Silmarillion style and start with Celebrimbor, switch to Galadriel and Elrond on season 2, then, completely forget about them and go to Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad by season 3.
Ultimately I think copyright should expire 50 years after publication, these near-infinite copyright terms we have now are ridiculous. That said I lay more of the blame on the Tolkien estate for not selling the rights as a complete package. At $250 million you may as well throw in the Silmarillion on top for free. Amazon Studios was also a bit dumb for buying the rights before figuring out what they wanted to even make. I'm not a big LotR fan. I've been watching RoP though and it's ok so far. I'll keep watching at least until I can tell what direction it's going in.
I agree with you: why not? I think both camps are right in this debate. Your point about the "casuals" is spot on. For them, it's more important that it feels like Tolkien, or at least like the movies, no matter what the canon says. That said, it's perfectly fine for „hardcore fans“ to expect an adaptation that is faithful to the canon. Amazon has chosen to make a LotR series rather than develop its own series, and that naturally brings expectations. Personally, I don't think canon is that important to most; I just want to see a good story. The Middle Earth games, for example, are so great and fun, but they don't give a f about the lore, and that doesn't ruin my experience. By the way, your comparison to ASOIAF is pretty good. "Fire and Blood" in this case would be the Silmarillion and "The World of Ice and Fire" would be the same as the appendix to LotR. :D
I was originally very sceptical, after they sacked Tom Shippey, but if you turn off the lore part of your brain it isn't too bad. It's not great, but not too bad. It breaks lore terribly, so if you want to sit through it you have to ignore that. I am just happy I got to see a decent representation of Numenor, but I just have to forget I read the Silmarillion. Why on Earth did they make it? I wish sincerely that the Tolkien estate had an epiphany and said to Peter Jackson, here's a truckload of money, make a faithful version of Beren and Luthien. That's not gonna happen. *sigh*. Too bad. What was the question? Oh, should it have been made, I'd say NO, but I really like finally seeing Numenor, so Noyeah.
I appreciate the question about "feel". I've chosen not to watch because I'm casting a vote against Amazon for a pattern I'm sensing develop with regard to respect for the source material that started with Wheel of Time. It still baffles me that for all the money Amazon shelled out, they decided it wasn't worth securing the appropriate rights. That is a form of disrespect toward the author, IMO. I realize my "drop in the bucket" will unlikely be heard, as both WoT and RoP drew in considerable audiences, but I'm sticking to my guns, for now. Though, I will admit, your points made me take a second look at my decision.
Isn't The Hobbit moving to the Public Domain in 10 years? LoTR soon afterwards?? If that is true, then Amazon had to jump on it while they could before the floodgates open. Feels like Tolkein? I agree - hard to answer but it seems strained so far. A lot of this seems to be a collection of 'what will the audience know about' and lets put them in this show. Not sure if I agree with that call but I understand it. Love the map work!
There is a possible comparison in Sandman. The TV series Lucifer was developed from the Sandman's version of Lucifer. The Mazakeem character, Amenadiel, and several other characters mentioned in Sandman in relation to the Lucifer storylines were used. In Sandman, there was a series of comics where Lucifer had abandoned Hell and opened a bar called Lux in LA. The television series took that storyline base and turned it into a police procedural show. When the rights went to Netflix, they finished out the show before launching Sandman. Thing is.. if a show is good and consistent within itself, people will forgive alot. The problems come with uncanny valley shows that cut too close to the basis of the source material while just being *off*. Complaints about details are generally verbalized statements that the characters are just off the underlying truth of the characters. In rop. Maybe this show will manage something, but right now, it lacks confidence in itself. The stories and dialog are kinda weak. You can survive if you tell a good story and tell it well, buy you can't survive if your claim is how pretty tge scenery is.
The question of "feel" is one I arrived at with the newest Star Trek tv shows. I felt that Discovery and Picard borrowed heavily from Marvel movies as they were full of quippy dialogue and action sequences. I ended up liking Strange New Worlds a lot more because it emphasised problem solving and diplomacy, which I come to the series for. As for Rings of Power, to me it it feels like the three LotR films and not the books, if that makes sense. I think that's an ok compromise, at least for me!
I'm glad someone else understands the difference between us more obsessive fans and the casuals. It just doesn't make financial sense to cater only tp hardcore book fans when it's such a small amount of people. Secondly, cannon is a personal question. The Silmarillion can't be considered "officially cannon" because Tolkien didn't publish it himself. Neither can Children of Hurin. Or the Lost Tales. For some people that's enough not to consider it cannon. For me, I don't care that he didn't actually publish them. I consider them canon. My point is that arguing over what's canon or not is a pretty pointless endeavor.
I find this "lack of rights to the source material" line of thinking a bit dubious. They knew well ahead of time what they had the rights to and what they did not. No one forced them to center the show on characters with a lot of canonical background they couldn't use. They could have used Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Elrond, Celebrimbor, and the like as context-giving framing devices and limited these well-known fan favorites to guest appearances. Within that framework they could have created a cast of entirely new characters and told their stories. Imagine e.g. that entire tracking Sauron in the north story without Galadriel there. Would have worked exactly the same if that troop had been lead by a newly created up-and-coming elven commander who had been given instructions in a scene with Gil-Galad and Galadriel and then we follow their unit, not knowing what might happen. Probably would have worked better than the bastardization of Galadriel they went with. They chose this approach completely butchering canon in the process.
It definitely feels somehow... intellectually dishonest.But then... is it only the Akallabeth? What about the drowling od Anadune, the lost road, the Notion club papers, Tal-Elmar... If I would wish to really write a tv show i'd make clear to have access to that material so could actually use them. They only have the outline from the appendices and can use them, but they have to ignore a lot of material for legal reasons now plus instead if being able to use original Tolkien material, they are forced to invent more of their own just to be able to show a somewhat cohesive story.
One of the biggest problems these days is that fans of every big franchise seem to nitpick everything apart, and are not simply sitting down and enjoying anything anymore. Star Wars for instance is a perfect example. I’m a huge fan of the galaxy far, far away and have so far had only one movie I really had a problem with (the Last Jedi) as that one completely upset the balance and destroyed certain lore that had been established. But…there were also fans that really enjoyed it despite that fact. And hey..I’m fine with that. But ever since that movie came out, every subsequent project seems to get over analysed, highlighting every single detail and whether or not it does, or does not fit within the timeline. And even worse, people that do like the new content are getting attacked for liking it, or have their sanity questioned. The same is happening with Marvel, and now it’s Lord of the Rings. My point is: respect. If people don’t like a show, or movie, hey that’s your right. But to completely trash it, and call it popular terms like woke, and even outright calling people out that do like it, or attacking them verbally? That’s not respect. It’s just mean, and it’s one of the biggest problems of fandom these days. The negativity seems to be drowning out the positivity, and let’s be honest a lot of the more casual viewers might not even give something a chance just because of that. And that I think is a sad thing. Nothing is perfect, and it doesn’t have to be. I want to be entertained, and I can accept to have certain deviations or liberties one takes with established lore, as long as it doesn’t go too far. And even if it does, if it’s still enjoyable I might even forgive that. So I think you did a very good job with this video. People should always form their own opinion and also respect other people’s views if they are different. It’s nice to see a video that takes a really neutral stance and is just honest as well, so thank you for this one 😊
I think something people forget is these shows are greenlit by suits who care nothing for the lore or accuracy of a product. They only care if it will make money. And not just subscriptions. Merchandise also factors in. As you pointed out a large percentage of fans are not hardcore. They will see books and boardgames based off this show and buy them not knowing it technically isn't cannon. Great video! Lol I went in thinking you were going to pull a Wheel of Time on us 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Note! Rings of Power has garnered a lot of new WoT viewers. Away from the rage of the original release, a lot of people are liking the show. Last I checked, WoT is #8 on Prime most watched.
I mean, PJ change canonical staff in Hobbit and even in LotR (many fans forget how different LotR movie vs the book). But it still great movies on its own. Hope, in the future, this will apply to series too.
i think this show can exist in such a way they write it, but then the showrunners shouldn`t be upset that devoted fans critic this mess. you as showrunners, as a studio, created this piece of work. and you named it Lord of the Rings. so now you're being upset that people don`t like what you made and saying "if you don`t like it don`t watch it..." No. I do like the world that PJ and Tolkien created so I will critique it. but the way these creators handle criticism is so ridiculous: saying that every person who did not like the show is racist, bigot etc. you took responsibility and made a 1 billion dollar show, now take responsibility and listen to what fans got to say.
When do you think that the changes make it no longer the story? I feel like any changes do. When it comes to someone else's work. Like in the IT books. I think the group sex did not need to be in the show/movies and it is not. I all so feel like it did not need to be in the books. I just wanted to use a change that I did not see any outcry for. So they are exceptions or If it is your work you can change anything you want. If you are the author the only criticism will be opinions. It may affect your sell and or it will get negative reviews. If you're not the author of something and you make changes that are not well received there is more weight behind the criticisms. Then the attachment to the original work can tarnish it for some time. In the Rings of Power, they changed fundamental aspects so It is no longer the story that we love. Not only did they change the story. They change it in a way that would be against the author's wishes. By doing this how does someone not see this show no more than an F U to J.R.R. Tolkien and the fans? Look at the marketing behind this show. You are Homophobic, racist, and sexist if you like the books and want to see them as they are just on the screen without modern Ideas or politics. So this Fan fiction should not exist. It does not add anything to the well-realized world of Tolkien. All it accomplishes is deconstruction and perversion. I do not feel like we need that. I am a bigger fan of the wheel of time, the books. But I am sick of this perversion of the classics. It makes me happy to see this fandom say no this is not Tolkien. I hope they keep doing this. Good for the Fans. I wish it would have been this big of an outcry for the wheel of time.
Very reasonable stance. Hopefully the overheated fans, some of whom don't seem to know that Silmarillion material can't be used (dunno how that's possible at this point), calm down enough to either reconsider watching, or just stop generating so much noise in their disapproval.
The funny thing is that GRRM is extremely far-left, but is rare among that crowd in having the intelligence to know that cramming his personal beliefs into something that is supposed to be entertainment would drive away most of his audience.
Well... It's like star wars. A lot of people considered the Thrawn triology canon, but they went and created their own story, while still using (some) of the character names from the extended universe. Fans of the EU... Needed to step away from earlier constructs and go into the last triology without it, which already caused a lot of strive. And then the actual story also wasnt that great... Rings of power has the same issue. Fans of the world, of the Silmarrillon and of the lore will need to leave some of the constructs behind, which isnt made easier by the fact that they make Galadriel the main character and have other characters return, but set them up in a different way from the lord of the rings. Who would have thought there would be a backlash... Anyway, the question is, if the rings of power is a good story. It will have to be seen, but as they deviate from how characters are perceived in the lotr shows, it seems there will be a direct confrontration between the two, which is not great for viewership let alone for lasting impressions. The lotr movies are amongst the highest rated films ever, I doubt rings of power will be a match for it.
I was torn between trying to enjoy it because there's not alot of opportunity to see LOTR world on screen but I have to keep making excuses in order to watch it and that spoils it all for me personally. After watching the RUclips videos that tear it apart I felt sympathy and wanted to give it a second shot and I found myself not being able to enjoy it as a Tolkien brand story or just as a show in general. I'm upset because they had they money the perfect opportunity to do it right and they choose decisions that for me did not honor Tolkiens world and after watching some of the interviews Tolkien did it hits even harder for me how what they did is a travesty, they didn't NEED to make this show they choose too.
I have taken the path of not watching as I doubt they are making something I will enjoy. If they had done something completely radical, like deciding to focus on the 2 Istari that went to the East to counter Sauron, that there is no real information about, and build tales around them, or something like that, I might have been intrigued enough to watch, but I don't want to see their re-imaginings of well known characters and the changing of lore. But that's just me.
I don't trust any big company to make a faithful adaptation. They are going to do whatever they need to do to make the most money possible. That is just their goal and that doesn't mesh well with faithful adaptation in the majority of cases. I think like you said we just have to wait and see if it's a decent story in its own right. I mean if copyright were less insane LOTR would be nearing public domain anyway. We just have to realize that popular stories will always be carried on by others after their authors are gone. This can be good and or bad we just have to take it on a case by case basis and try to be civil to one a other in the process.
you should have talk about warhammer 40k ( even tho you might not know alot about it) since its a really big fantasy storie with ton of storie to tell but by always trying that its adaptation ( game inclued) is extremely faithfull to the lore sadly the fandom was dying and nothing was in the work but since Henry Cavil talk about it now people jump in and thats something important since we would never have anything since the lore was way too deep and complexe and by always be too faithful to the lore nobody exept harcore fan get whats is happening so sometime making big budget less lore friendly material at least attract new people and after they might want to learn the real lore behind it. If ring of power bring new fan it would only help to make the corporation want to make new material about it and after the more is known the more you can do deep lore material about the serie
As someone who saw the animated film in the 70s, read LOTR in 1983 and caddied for Christopher Lee at Gleneagles Hotel the same year for two days, yeh beat that lol this is a disaster.
You asked what prevents other creators from exploring Tolkien‘s world, the answer is Tolkien himself. He said in one letter( unfortunately i forgot which one) that he considers his work his and no one else’s and proceeds to explain how much he hates fan-fiction. You can argue that the movies made too many changes and you would be correct. And by definition this show cannot be anything but fan-fiction.
Good video as always. In an ideal world, I really do wish the show had gotten the rights to The Silmarillion. That would have allowed the show’s plot to have been more straightforward, even if they changed the title. But given that that wasn’t possible, the show they made doesn’t especially stand out.
That's great because of all the middle earth races I want to be an elf. But I took a quiz on it and it told me I was a human which is so disappointing 😂
@@Bookborn Recall what the dwarf says about Elfs when he talks about Tauriel in Hobbit. He says Elves have broad cheekbones and he says some other stuff about them but i forgot it:) Anyway, you are definetely an Elf (Celtic phenotypes, most likely originating from somewhere relavant :) )
The Tolkien estate should not have let them do it. From a responsible owners pov, this would damage the property. A show in a timeline that they did not have ownership is a recipe for disaster and puts show runners in a dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t. If they are as true as possible they need to bring in material they don’t own, if the do not bring the material in then they are making up stuff out of canon.
Great post! I agree 99.9%. I disagree only with your conclusion that the show, on balance, should not exist due to not having the rights to the Silmarillion. Leaving aside the very interesting question as to why the Tolkien estate would not sell/ grant the rights to a production company that has the resources to really do the books justice (does anyone really know, beyond "protective"?), I do feel there is plenty of material in the LotR and the Hobbit to create many seasons of brilliant Second Age material that conforms strictly to canon. Here's the thing for me: I don't mind them making things up, but I do mind when they make things up that contradict or chime badly with canon (and here I mean ALL canon, even material they don't have the rights to). It's like drawing a moustache on the original Mona Lisa: it's audacious, it's stimulating, it may even be brilliant, but ultimately it's vandalism.
By far the best take on Rings of Powers I wittnessed. Double Thumbs Up. You are spot on with your description of the current state. I personally don't watch the show for a couple of weeks and then watch it. I don't like the idea of big companies buying the legal rights and then pretending that they have the moral right, too. So, I try to not push their numbers but will ultimately follow my interest and if the show is good its good.
7:36 . I haven't read anything Tolkien. I haven't even watched the LOTR movies or the Hobbit. But I am of the opinion that it's horribly disingenuous to expect people to "set their expectations accordingly" when you're appropriating the name of something they like to make a show. They don't have the rights to the story they want to tell. They should not tell it. If they really do want to tell a lord of the rings story, then they should find something else. Or even better, make something up completely from scratch while still remaining true to general info about the series. If they decide to tell a story that they don't have the rights to, then they'll inevitably end up telling a story that fans of the original work cannot agree with
The whole point of dropping a quarter of a billion dollars on IP rights is because there is a large and passionate fanbase, ready and waiting. There's no inherent problem with making a modernised, cosmopolitan fantasy series - but the nature of Tolkien's work is such that modernity is not what these fans value. Tolkien fans value authentic world-building, historicity, immersion, detail, epic lines, imagination, grandiosity, etc. Casual fans exist, sure, but your cultural relevance will be short-lived if you can't inspire a fandom to really invest themselves.
As a reader, you should be all too aware that your favorite books will inevitably be adapted by these large studios. They don't seem capable of making OC, so the reboots and adaptations will continue. Those who care about source material should make themselves heard and not be silenced by fear of rabbid identitarians. These worlds are not a 'platform' or a vehicle for 'representation'. They are creations that lifetimes of care and imagination were poured into - they are beloved. A great author's vision should be accorded respect.
Agreed. And you would think that this shouldn't be too hard to understand.
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
I am on the fence as to whether I want to watch the show or not. I love LOTR, both the books and the movies, and also thoroughly enjoy The Hobbit (though the movie adaptation for it sits at a 6/10 for me).
My biggest concern is that ROP is basically Fan-Fiction. As someone who has read fanfic in the past, I can tell you most of it is not that great. Occasionally, a story will be fantastic, and I do enjoy those… but the fact remains that Fan-Fiction is not canon. It is hard to take things that are not canon seriously. I don’t know… Maybe the fact that they threw over a billion dollars at ROP will make a difference?
I am also worried because I have seen a lot of the negative press for the show, and at least some of it seems pretty well deserved. Actors talking about how they have improved on Tolkien’s work, and comments about how they made it more palatable to modern sensibilities has me frustrated. The virtue signaling falls right in line with liberal Hollywood rhetoric, and I worry that ROP just won’t feel like the Middle Earth I know and love.
The Silmarillion actually contains relatively little material about the Second Age. Discounting indices etc., only ~10% of its content (the Akallabêth and the first part of Of The Rings Of Power) relates to it, and the latter of those has very little content that isn't just a rewrite of the relevant LoTR Appendices in narrative form.
Yeah, I think people just wanted more info from first age since so many characters live through the first age are still alive in the second age
ICE Roleplayign game, Rolemaster, did a series of modules in Middle Earth. They chosse 1640 TA as their setting. A lot was going on at the time period, and would have made so much better setting for tv-show.
Great video and good points have been made, as for me I was expecting a good, family oriented, tolkien-vibes show. I never anticipated the show to be canon/lore accurate. Simply for the fact that they do not have the rights to many essential writings to the Second Age. If the show is to be canon/lore accurate, it will be the last things we see during the Last Alliance in the Battle of the Dagorlad, judging from the Appendices. Being a book and film fan - I was surprised how good this show was. I appreciated its level of fantasy catered to all ages, really focusing on family show vibes. The harfoots hooked me. Though I do have issues with Galadriel’s plot choices(Morfydd as an actress is amazing I thought she killed it as Galadriel she was the best choice), I am excited for what we shall see theese characters do in the future. Durin, Elrond, Disa, Celebrimbor so far have been awesome. I was also surprised by how well they summarized the Silmarillion - though it is quite rushed and surface level for backstory - it still adheres to it. The biggest issue for the show I always felt, was the connection of backstory of the 2nd Age and the current story we shall see in the show. Because rights restrict this facet of the show - the creators behind the show need to do some serious legwork to help folks catch up to the main plot of the show. Hence why I feel these first 2 episodes were slow and the tone may come across as “boring”. Regardless where folks stand on this concept, I feel that they delivered, and I feel that the story will become more canon-based as the plot goes on with the show. On premiere, I watched with my parents - which I was scared to do so. They did not read the books, and are solely film fans - and nothing more. Our group rating was calculated to be 8.5 outta 10, and my parents were excited to see what the show would bring. We were happy it was not GoT - as my folks do not appreciate its dark and vile aspects of dark fantasy. My mother really enjoyed Galadriel - my father and I really liked Durin and Elrond’s relationship, we look forward to this show and the story it brings, canon or otherwise
I appreciate your approach to this topic. I definitely agree and i think we should all just enjoy it for what it is. Sadly some will continue to be determined to hate it and be miserable but as for me, I am going to have enjoy the show 😂
Nope
In the age of THE MESSAGE, fantasy needs to be left alone.
Fantasy in particular is too personal for people to be bastardized willy-nilly...
Everyone needs to see your comment. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
“Galadriel deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered.” - Unfinished Tales
Exactly and for many numerous reasons too!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
But if they love Galadriel from the movies, they have a reason to love her... Her personality, character, dialogue, her design... If the Galadriel from RoP is completely different from the Galadriel from LOTR (even just the one from the movies) then what is there for them to love?
Well, I think we all change as we grow older, and there is thousands of years between Second Age and galadriel in third age...so we'd assume she'd be different and have grown in that time, right?
@@Bookborn Not only you're admitting that it is an assumption, but you also implying that WE ALL would assume so... + the description of Galadriel from before the second age aligns with that of the third age. Are you implying that she had a "phase"?
@@Bookborn Galadriel only fault, when you read the Silmarillion, is that she wants to create her own realm and to do her own thing and be above her peers. In Tolkien's universe this is a whole big thing. Most evil characters have this same nagging urge. But thats about it. She was never stupid, unwise, rash or even driven by anger really.
When she rejects the ring from frodo she finally rejects, the thing that Tolkien does not like the most, that is, the will of dominate others. She passes the ultimate test and she finally gets to go to Valinor if she wants.
A reasonable and measured approach to the topic. My criticisms about the early episodes aside for the moment, my big question is why, with the rights they had available, was the decision made to set the show in the second age? If they can pull from the LotR appendices, then there is more than enough third age content to draw from: the War in the North, the Fall of Arnor, conflict between Gondor and the Corsairs, and so on.
As to whether this show "feels like Tolkien" or not, my biggest complaint stems from the storytelling style feels nothing like Tolkien at all. Some of the themes are similar, but the show has gone for a "mystery box" style of narrative that has already worn out its welcome. The show's storytelling style comes across more like its intent is to generate online reaction rather than present an engaging, coherent story. It feels like Lord of the Rings by way of J.J. Abrams, which is not doing it for me.
That makes a lot of sense considering the showrunners are Bad Reboot acolytes. Everything JJ has touched that was pre-existing has turned to shit. It only make sense that the people he has trained have the same affect. When will people stop hyping him and his team up? They do nothing but piss people off for corps to make money. Nothing artistic about Bad Robot.
i'm not a book reader, my guess is they started it in the second age just in case they could get more rights in the future and either do a prequel or a sequel. 90% of the decisions that don't make sense to fans of source materials... are usually due to such business/exec considerations.
@@alveolate You’d love Tolkien Untangled if you don’t want the book. Then the lore videos OmarioRPG reacted to. And you’ll love the audiobook by Phoenix Cast
I believe it was set in the Second Age purely because then they could tie the story in with the One Ring, which everybody already knows about. The Kin-Strife, or the doings of Hyarmendacil or the Wainriders just don't have that connection (though I think they'd be absolutely fascinating).
@@stevenlowe3026 Anything they could want to connect to the One Ring they could do with the Third Age material to which they had full rights. Also given the first few episodes of the show, they have barely hinted at the creation of the rings of power. The show's title is about the only clue to wider, casual audience that the One Ring will even be a part of this story.
After what they did with WoT I’m surprised about the open mind you have going into RoP. Good on you. That said, I’ve disassociated myself with the lore for this show and I’m still having a super difficult time with the writing. The dialog, the pacing, the lack of character development…. We’re two hours in to eight and I don’t care about any of the characters and keep getting pulled out with questions I shouldn’t have.
1. Where did Galadriels knife go but suddenly reappeared when It was needed to free her from sinking?
2. How does Gal move around the world so quickly? And how does she cover the distances we’re talking about just on foot? Or breaststroke I guess. Funny how she’s fine when no-one is around but as soon as there are people she’s suddenly tired and needs help. Had they not been there would she have just swam the rest of the way?
3. Did Elrond and Celebrmbor just go for an afternoon stroll to KazaDun?
4. Aren’t dwarves long lived as well? Would 20 years make that big of a difference? And did he send an invite to his wedding to Elrond or did he expect him to just know about it?
5. Why did Arondir go in the tunnel. After 100s of years of ‘keeping an eye’ on the people of Mordor… when the village is destroyed and the crops/livestock hit with some kind of blight, shouldn’t he have spoken to at least one other member of the occupying force rather than just letting them all leave while he investigates the first hint of something that justifies their purpose for the last 300 years? And would they have left without him?
5. Why are we supposed to care about Arondir and Bronwyn? Their relationship doesn’t feel like it matters.
6. Why would they have sent Gal to the undying lands if they knew that she was right? Which it appears Gilgalad did.
7. Where is Gal’s magic?
8. The terrible ‘deep’ moments they keep giving us… how is a boat different than a stone? I dunno, one sinks and the other displaces water. Density, buoyancy, propulsion….
9. That huge waterfall on the ice wall they were climbing… where was the water coming from? They got to the top and there wasn’t even a stream….
The list goes on. Every scene something pulls me out of the immersion. I’m hoping it gets better but so far its not feeling like Tolkien. Other than that it starts slow. Jeez, they even use the words OK in it. Sorry, but Tolkien would never allow for that. It seems simple and maybe gatekeepy but all Tolkien fans know this to be true.
At the end of the day.. everyone should like the show or not like it based on their own taste. We shouldn’t be telling others what to think. I really wish they would have just been more open in the marketing. They could have said from the outset that they weren’t following lore. Instead they went in on how big of a fan each of them is of Tolkien and how they are going to make it better because of inclusivity and diversity. Those things are fine. But the marketing team built a strategy around instigating that type of response and then doubling down on it. They could have just said they didn’t have the rights so it is going to be a loose adaptation. Then nobody could argue against their choices and we’d be left to simply criticize the show, which I personally think they wanted to avoid because they knew people with a critical eye would call out the inconsistencies. Better to just say those people are racists so we don’t look to close.
So far a 4/10 for me. The visuals are going to bring me back for episode 3 but if the writing doesn’t improve I can’t see putting any more time into this. At least not until the season has played out and I can hear from others like me if it’s worth binging the rest of the season.
Precisely.
I'm also keeping any knowledge I have of the lore separate to my watching of the show - it has to stand on its own because that's all it's allowed to do. But you're so right on the many inconsistencies that are jarring. I watched the first episode feeling like it was a solid 7/10 and the missing 3 were all around Galadriel's behaviour. I feel like each episode I watch will result in 1 less point on my score unless some real intelligent writing and consistency suddenly appears. But that's ok because IMDB (which Amazon owns) is deleting all scores less than 6 so I guess I don't have too far to fall :)
This is well stated and your conclusions are correct. Knowing that much of this story cannot use the stories Tolkien wrote, i.e. The Silmarillion, In watching the first 2 episodes I to did not feel anything for any of these characters. I was told and not shown what was happening. This is ok in literature to a degree but for a movie TV show it opens up the opportunity to expand the "lore". The only scene I really loved was we are introduced to Durin's family. How they showed his children playing and Disa was by far the best part of the first 2 hours. I wish that the rest of the characters were given the same treatment.
The second is the bland writing for the elves, ALL of the elves. I loved the depth of how the elves were written by Tolkien. Their motivations and flaws. They are the oldest race and have lived many thousands of years by the time of the Third age. They dominate the events of the First and Second ages. Their motivations in the first two episodes seem very shallow and shortsighted. Galadriel and Gil-Galad do not act or talk like they are great leaders. They seem petty and driven by their base emotions, vengeance and irritation. Leaders and great leaders like Galadriel and Gil-Galad should be are able to empathize with those they rule. They understand that building up their followers strengthens not only those they lead but themselves as well. Being a veteran I know what a good leader can do. A leader is someone that people want to follow. Galadriel's lack of leadership is shown very early in how she is the only one strong enough to fight and might makes right. Her followers lay down their weapons because she is not leading them. She is herding them and using them only to fulfill her need for vengeance. These little inconsistencies in her character that I see make it hard for me to visualize her as the same person as seen in The Lord of the Rings. Making The Rings of Power hard to watch and immerse myself into.
"After what they did with WoT I’m surprised about the open mind you have going into RoP. Good on you."
- I think this show actually allows for more of an open mind. For how little material they're able to work from, (licensed), I can only look at this show as a fan fiction show, and I'm ok with that. For me, just seeing fantasy brought to TV with today's tech is a plus. The visuals are definitely here in this show.
With that said, I really think Amazon needs to find a new pool of writers, and showrunners, to pull from. Only 3 episodes in and HBO's House of the Dragon has me _FULLY_ invested...in the characters, in the story and the show. Conversely, after two episodes Rings of Power, this show has me thinking that, ok, that was all just set up, let's hope the story takes off in episode 3. And WoT has me feeling this, and a few other harsher feelings, after an entire season. Amazon really needs to take a very hard look at their writers. You just have to look at the Rotten Tomatoes scores to see the difference: User reviews - HOTD = 85%, WoT = 61%, and RoP = 39%. I think you can attribute the vast majority of this on the writing, although I think RoP is getting hit a little harder because of the fan base as well.
@@Perry_Wolf for sure the fan base is going harder… but it’s by far the biggest fan base of them all. And even though Amazon wants to spin it as just racist trolls, the majority of people are like us, just tired of shitty writing in shows and studios patting their backs over diversity. They could have avoided the whole racist thing by being honest about their intent, but they weren’t. They could have had people forgive the lore problems if they were honest, but they weren’t. They had Variety ready to publish the racism take in an article within moments of the first trailer dropping. Amazons’ marketing, and Disney and the rest, lean into a couple bad people and use that to change the narrative away from the real critiques, which have always been around the writing. It allows them to block reviews, dismiss all criticism as racist or phobic, and they still get the hate watchers. Probably higher viewership day 1 because people want to see it fail. The whole system has nothing to do with art or passion. It’s just more politics and corporate greed tearing neighbours apart.
I agree with almost all of your points, i try to see it as a standalone show with no relation to Tolkien but it doesn't go beyond a 7 for me even taking that into account. Visuals are a 9,5 or 10 but narratively speaking is really weak for now at least. If we take in account the lore... things get quite worse then.
Am i the only one bothered by elves costumes? Celebrimbor looks like a granny, and Elrond looks like a court bard... they project no elvish feeling at all.
I love the level headed approach you take. What I don't understand is why people are so vitriolic about the show and hate it so much, only to tune in again and again..If I don't like something, I walk away like I did with GoT. I didn't spend time chatting nonsense about it on the Web...
I don't mind if people want to talk about their disappointments with the show...but the absolute vitriol, like you've said, is BAFFLING, especially since it was happening *before the show even aired*. And I completely agree - the best way to show that you don't like something is just...don't watch.
@@Bookborn I'm amazed not many people are talking about the way the RUclips channels poison the well on everything they supposedly love. You are right when you say it was damned befo4e it started but this trend happened with Star Trek, Star Wars and now LotR. Some RUclips creators go in negatively from the start, before anything is known, saying 'this will be a dumpster fire' just to get clicks. Manchild purist who should know better start nitpicking and then as the release dates close in they ramp up the negativity for clicks, people who have only seen the films bark on about 'lore' like they are professors and they kill the thing that others may love just so they can feel better about being in the herd of naysayers... The shining is the greatest horror film ever made. It bears no resemblance to the books...I thank god there were no youtubers around in the 70s.
@@eglib499 Enough of the hyperbole mate. No-one has spat in you face. As the lovely lady in the video said, We knew there were no rights to the material that makes up the Silmarillion, they have to scrape together a story that doesn't get them sued and also pleases the widest range of viewer's. If you honestly thought the PotR was going to satisfy the whim of every purist and also salve the head canon that people make in their own minds, then it's not the production that has to alter, its some people's concept of reality.
I understand the vitriol present.
Fans have followed the production news of this show for multiple years - many since 2017 when the announcement was made.
The secrecy at which Amazon Studios approached this production was very misleading to the fan base.
Throughout the years 2017-2021 the show leaked very little material. BUT - and this is RELEVANT - what they did leak was pictures of the island of Numenor and the Two Trees. These pics led fan bases around the world to ponder that the show had the rights to The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. RUclips Tolkien content sites were filled with excitement & chats about what “Lord of the Rings on Prime” might be about and depict given access to those books. That speculation went on for a year+ before the show’s first trailer and magazine interview in Feb 2022.
The show WAS NOT open about the rights they had until Feb 2022. That’s when “all hell” broke out. THAT’s when fans judged they were deceived and that’s when the anger started pouring out.
So if you weren’t following news on the show, it’s possible you wouldn’t comprehend the intensity of the anger nor why the anger even existed.
Amazon should have been more interactive with the worldwide fan sites and admitted what rights they had purchased instead of sitting quietly letting the sites speculate about the Silmarillion/Unfinished Tales canon. The announcement of the limited rights could have come a long time ago - instead of 180 days before launch.
@@wd2989 Then don't watch it...its not rocket science. Don't let this show worry you.
It's sad the licence rights for this portion were sold separately allowing this to proceed...
It's just so far outside Tolkiens work.
The Hobbit movies were bad but not this blatantly insulting to the legacy source material..
I think your basic premise here is incorrect. All the basic information to cover the story they are going for is technically in the appendices and leavened into the LOTR proper, and so within the rights Amazon actually purchased: Numenor, the history of the making of the rings, Sauron and the fall of Numenor, the last battle, etc. Also even the names of kings and queens, and the detailed chronologies of the second age that the show completely ignored for some valid reasons like “how do you keep interest in a long series where all the non-elven characters would have to die off every few episodes?” Answer - compress the events and characters together in time. Even for example the Two Trees from well before the first age are there, as well as a sketch of the first age history - both used for flashback material. So IMHO the specific rights were never the issue, as weird as that contract was. Seems like by all logic the rights to the Silmarillion, which would have been more on the nose, should have been far cheaper, but I don’t know what or how either Amazon or the Tolkien Foundation were thinking. Maybe the show runners just REALLY wanted to get Gandalf in there somewhere. 😂
The entire issue is that the show runners don’t seem to have any knack of capturing the feel of the original material, which is typically the core and essence of why people love Tolkien. It’s a fairy story, and as Tolkien himself pointed out in written form during his lifetime fairy stories obey certain rules that make them work and FEEL the way the do. Break certain rules and poof, the magic disappears. If you don’t understand this then probably you have no right telling a story in the that fairy universe and setting.
And the problem has nothing to do with being “woke” or filling out the edges of the world Tolkien left blank, or even changing things some people cling to as canonical. The problem in my view is they break the rules Tolkien himself set out for how these stories work. And I don’t think you need to have this kind of literary, high level perspective or even have read Tolkien’s “On Fairy Stories” to appreciate this - the average Tolkien fan will get this right always by feel alone. This rule breaking happens constantly though the TV series, and I could go on for a long time and in detail. But one of the biggest examples is the treatment of Sauron. Tolkien stated that any “knowing winking” or subtle self-awareness and mockery in the telling of the story drags it out of the realm of Faerie into our mundane world, turning it into something else. So far the GRRM material on HBO completely avoids this kind of thing, which is one reason why that stuff holds up well. Tolkien was referring to a somewhat different scenario, but I’d like to think he would agree that suggesting that Sauron is conflicted, or just a guy that maybe suffered in the past, or maybe is the way he is because of psychological reasons is “winking”. It’s dragging a modern construct into a fairy story. It is Sauron as Tony Soprano. Personally I love deconstructive retellings of fairy tales, but those are NOT the fairy stories themselves and certainly work differently. But fundamentally the reason a lot of people instinctively hate the Amazon series, IMHO, is that they can feel the mockery inherent in the attempt of the show runners to both have their fairy story, and deconstruct it at the same time.
However I do think a lot of people are not that great at analyzing the ultimate source of those negative feelings, and often tend to flail about in their criticism - in my humble opinion. But I feel like if you look at things from the point of view of Tolkien’s own analysis of how such stories work it is easier to understand what is going on. It is not JUST changing “beloved” characters like Sauron and Galadriel - it is changing them in a winking or knowing way, that Tolkien said mocks the internal validity of the secondary world, and so sucks the magic out of the story.
But of course I will watch it. I actually hope they can do a little better in the future. And even with my reservations I do want to “see what happens next”. And probably it is unfair to expect to get filet mignon when you walk into a McDonald’s/Watch TV - but a guy can dream. As a last stand there is always Hate Watching, which has a pleasure all its own, but also does not follow the usual rule for enjoying fairy stories.
Should this show exist? absolutely. otherwise, fan fiction wouldn't exist either. Art has a right to exist, even when based on other works, such as adaption. Do people have to like it? no, that'd be some 1984 level stuff, right there
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
House of the Dragon without the rights to Fire and Blood would be such a hilarious mess that I can confidently say it wouldn't work as an adaptation. It would feel like Rings of Power feels where there's some recognizable stuff, some characters names you're familiar with, but ultimately it's not even an adaptation, it's fanfic.
That's not saying RoP is good or bad, just that as an adaptation of the source material it's a complete and utter failure. It isn't even fair to expect a legitimate adaptation for this show because they have so little to go off of and can't even directly reference things in the First and Third Ages.
I actually question why Amazon even dumped all of this money into this show without having the rights to more of the books. Personally I don't have high hopes for RoP after watching the first two episodes but it will hopefully improve. Unfortunately this will never be a good adaptation but could potentially be really good Tolkien fanfiction.
Some changes are necessary for an adaptation. However if they ignore/violate the established cannon I don't see the point of getting invested. If anything goes what's the point? They could have Captain Kirk show up on Middle Earth and tell us this the official new cannon that we have to accept now but I won't buy into it.
> "it's like them saying hey I'm gonna go make a Mistborn movie without having the rights to Mistborn that would be crazy, so no that's never happened"
... actually, there were the licensing obligations when it came to productions of "Star Trek" since 2009; when Paramount and CBS had rights to the franchise, but split between TV shows and movies before the divisions were merged again. Reference the "25% different" argument.
Or the "The Sandman" stuff where they didn't have rights to the character of John Constantine, neither the Matt Ryan depiction from the CW or the Keanu Reeves depiction and instead just decided to double up on Jenna Coleman. And even pronouce the name differently to the way Constantine's creator Alan Moore pronounced the name.
Or modern "Star Wars" productions where a cut of merchandising and licensing relating to original pre-Disney-Lucasfilm material goes back to not-Disney, so let's minimise those characters.
And for that matter, I refer you to the hideous case of the AppleTV "Foundation" series filth by David S. Goyer and the original Asimov books. Licensing? Apparently not, and yet the adaptation is a disgusting perversion of everything the books stood for, so.
So really hate to tell you this, but YES IT IS CRAZY AND YET IT'S HAPPENING. "Crazy" is the new stupid normal now.
> "has enough lore to support a lifetimes of movies and TV shows made about it companies can't ignore that as our friend Logan Nine Fingers would say you've got to be realistic"
... I really have to stop posting comments partway through videos. Look, I don't mean to be rude here, but "you've got to be realistic" has to give way to ACTUAL RECORDED EVENTS OF HISTORY. I never thought I'd say this to anyone, ever, but go watch AppleTV's "Foundation" television series and have I got news for you, Goyer and Apple IGNORED THE HELL OUT OF THE BOOKS and lied through their disgusting oh-so-kickable teeth about it. They even lied about Asimov's motivations behind the books.
> "and how many fans are just happy to revisit Middle Earth"
Even my housemate interrupted me watching this with "it's called fanfic. Some people just like it, don't need to be bullied into it and even write it for free".
Henry Jenkins, Provost Professor of Communication, Journalism, Cinematic Arts and Education at the University of Southern California wrote in a NYT article of 1997, “Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by corporations instead of by the folk”.
> "the showrunners have been very open about what Canon they do and do not have the rights to, they have not been trying to pretend that this is New Canon"
... Vanity Fair article reads "Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?".
The DAY AFTER YOU RELEASED THIS VIDEO, ScreenRant released an article titled "Rings Of Power:10 Best Changes From Canon So Far, According To Reddit".
Forget an inch. I was a MILLIMETRE away from hitting the Subscribe button, because I saw your videos about differences between the books and the show and I was going to settle in and watch all five episodes. And then I saw THIS video and thought "no wait, I'll watch this one first".
And I'm super-glad I did because I just saved myself the watching time. You're justifying this series. You're justifying the kind of logic that allowed Apple and David Goyer to get away with the faux "Foundation" TV series. That show was a diseased abortion and should never have been allowed to exist. Everything should be done to prevent it getting a second series. I watched the whole thing and it *hurt*.
I'm now working on reading the books and becoming an LOTR fan of a grade similar to my Asimov fandom. And every single thing I've heard or seen about "The Rings Of Power", down to the interviews and PR, is grade-identical to "Foundation".
The single most disrespectful thing I'll say about you is "when considered next to what I've heard and seen of Rings Of Power, I have to ask whether you've partaken of that sweet sweet Amazon thirty pieces of silver". And I really hope that you have not. I quick-skimmed the transcript of your Differences video episode 5 to see quickly whether your position had changed. It's encouraging that you've recognised the lack of progress in the show, but that you keep being "blown away" by this show - even episode 5 - is... unfortunate. The lack of plotting or character development - from a channel called "BOOKBORN"... I hoped you wouldn't have been swayed by the stupid visual glitz and focussed on the important parts. The parts Amazon were desperately trying to get people to be hooked on as the first hit.
One of the things that annoys me is that the VERY same people that have called Tolkein racist for decades ("bc Orcs are DEFINITELY black people" which says a LOT about the people who believe that and very little about Tolkein, who DID have black nations on the evil side and is pretty explicit in describing them as victims of Numenorian aggression and Sauron's manipulation... rather than actually being evil themselves. Modern critics of Tolkein ALSO often accuse him of racism through his use of historical suppositions, that is implying that Tolkein shares the worldviews of his creations in their opinions or linguistic idioms that apply to "African" peoples, or the people that populated far Harad that were unequivocally based on African cultures... I could rant more, but I'll stop. I'm abusing parentheses!) and NOW declaring his works inclusive and diverse, and that anyone who disagrees is a racist.
It's all very convenient, as always.
I stick by my initial observations:
Making cosmopolitan populations in fantasy and scifi is not a bad thing... but it IS a stylistic choice that limits the exploration of those themes. THAT can easily be overcome by replacing HUMAN "racial" tension ("race" is a loaded and ambiguous concept, where I disagree with basically everyone on any given thread despite having a milquetoast and considered opinion of my own: that it's largely a social construction, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and isn't important. A racial category can include "genetic traits" but it's hardly immutable and such groupings can be as broad or as exclusive as a speaker wishes. Hell the idea of "whiteness" changes based on historical and geographical context, and lumping all dark skinned people into a few terms is just as ludicrous. Americans calling all black people "African American" pisses me off, and I'm only RELATED to black, mixed race, Brits. They aint African OR American, amigos)
Stormlight has shade of eye colour, Mistborn has entirely different ("engineered") races. You can use those to explore racial tensions without being too on the nose.
But often these very shows want to have their cake and eat it too. Represent a diverse, multicultural world... but ALSO have such characters behave as if they share experiences with their real world analogues. That can be jarring if it isn't narratively justified. (though it's more common on gender politics. Leia being pissed that men don't take her seriously and giving girl boss energy made sense. Her back story totally justifies it. Rey doing the same crap despite growing up hunting for scrap in a desert... not so much)
The Sandman show has been great so far (I'm only a few eps in. The Death actress is amazing. I love bubbly Death and her tribute to Pratchett) but casting black actors in historical Britain means that landmine can't REALLY be explored (even if a character explicitly talks about the slave trade) Again, no bad thing as it doesn't feel like a subject Sandman is for or about... but I can imagine it drawing criticism for "whitewashing"
WoT made the same mistake imo. "Diverse" casted its way into an emptier, smaller world despite ALSO choosing to adapt in such a way that diversity could have been achieved more naturally. (as I said at the same, I'd have been all for an "all mixed race" Two Rivers heading into "white" Andor, multicultural major cities and ethnic borderlands. Visual storytelling really benefits from that shorthand and diversity is ABOUT exploring and celebrating differences, not pretending there are no differences.
When creating OR developing, these choices should be conscious and intentionally. All too often it's just a mess of box ticking.
And that's a shame, bc it does a disservice to the actors AND to the very concept of representation.
"it's all made up, so it doesn't matter" is often a justification I see... from people with no creativity or interest in exploring beyond skin deep.
Imagine if RoP had explored how Sauron captures the cultures outside of middle earth. How miscegenation on the borders of Gondor caused tension and divided loyalties which he exploits.
Imagine if the skin colour of Elves were relevant to their history. Elves that returned from Valar being lighter (or darker) skinned, those who never saw the light of the trees LOOK different. *mind blown* (and anyone who would suggest that this division meant one was superior to the other has never read the lore. The Elves are not an innocent people. Plenty of blood on those hands and a LOT of tragedy bc of it)
I just think "Hollywood diversity" is a poor replacement for the real thing.
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
Obligatory hate comment.
Once you decided to call something 'Lord of the Rings' then it's polite to try to satisfy the fans (and this is a huge IP with lots of fans) as well as the 'general public'. If you don want to try to please the fans (and ignoring the extreme shills... those requests could have been achieved, plus the show made watchable for all, plus have diversity), why bother? If you just want to put the middle finger up to a strong section of the fanbase (and why would you do that when there are clearly other routes that could have been taken)... why not just call your expensive new fantasy something else?
Visually, pretty Tolkien. Dialogue... Not as much. Acting, okay with no real standouts. I would have been happy if they had the rights to the Silmarillion and put this kind of budget into it along with suitably talented writers. I don't believe in calling it Lord of the Rings if they do not have sufficient rights. Maybe Middle Earth instead. Named after the setting instead of a specific story.
This show is objectively terrible. The writing is amateur and embarrassing. It does not feel like Tolkien in the slightest. Every metaphor or analogy is a facsimile of depth and meaning when it is truly just nonsensical word salad that falls apart if you look too closely. The dialogue is just as bad. There are too many moments to count where they tell you instead of show you things. It is also filled with maid and butler dialogue. The plot is slow and disjointed. The pay offs are few and far between. There are long stretches where nothing happens and then tiny spurts where too many things happens at once. There is also no sense of time. Sailing to Valinor would take months, it would be a completely different season by the time Galadriel swam far enough back to find those castaways and be discovered by the sailors. (As completely unlikely as that was) But that passing of time isn’t shown. In fact, all the timelines of the characters don’t seem to connect. Elrond and Celebrimbor walking 100 miles from Eregion to Khazad-dûm on foot in sandals and the same clothes with no sign of supplies or being travel worn even though it would take them days to do so is another example of poor timeline management. They all witness the comet but that’s about it on linking these timelines together. and they honestly make no sense with each other and on their own.
I could go on. I don’t even have to mention the lorebreaking or the terrible casting choices (Galadriel and Celebrimbor especially) to demonstrate the awfulness of this show. The lazy writing is just one aspect. But it is enough to determine that without a doubt this objectively does not feel like Tolkien.
No. I don’t think this show should have been made without the rights. As to why not? Well, I do not agree with using a beloved author’s name to chase clout. I think creators, alive or not, deserve more respect than that because that’s having integrity and mutual respect.
to be fair; a super realistic and close as possible to cannon show would not be economically viable.
Cynically speaking; generic fantasy show normies will watch will work for amazon if WoTv worked ( i still can’t believe people liked that show..). people will watch anything even if it’s background noise while they look at their phones.
Another question might be ; will we ever get another visit to middle earth that will rise to the level of Peter Jackson’s trilogy? Has factory produced genre tv shows poisoned the well?
Most of the material about the second age is outside of The Silmarillion.
95% of The Silmarillion is about the First Age.
Short answer: no (but not why you think)
Super fans are the worst. They would rather have nothing rather than something. There is no way your ideas about what you read and mine are the same. This show is possibly my favorite. You do yourself a disservice by wanting each telling or version to be the same. Every perspective is different.
If lord of the rings wasn’t in the title and If this show wasn’t related, you would love it. Also cannon? Tolkien changed his mind all the time. There is no cannon.
I’m just sick of fans. They act like gate keepers who refuse to allow people to enjoy things if it’s not up to the fans standards. Fans are the problem. Stop being a fan and start enjoying different visions of these stories. It’s like talking to two different witnesses of the same event. There memories are different. The things they know are different. Their embellishments are different.
Anyway I get it that fans won’t like what I said but the truth is that if fans were honest with themselves they would see they are probably just unwilling to open up to a different perspective than their own.
make the shows - all the shows :) Lets see what happens - Most people watching these would never pick up the books.
Hi 👋 so far rings of power tv series it’s okay 👌 fingers crossed 🤞 it gets better? Thanks for a good video 🎬🎥
Absolute praise to you for trying a positive spin on the series. I tried the first episode and was perplexed. Stunning visually for the most part. Unfortunately, the actress Morbid Clarke destroys any joy with her dialogue and acting. Found the fast forward button on my remote, more stimulating. I have no problem with making Galadriel the central character, even bend the lore BUT the actress is bleh....
WHERE is the magic? The W O W
This episode felt how I feel while waiting for my wife to decide what to wear on our evening out. She looks beautiful in every outfit but cannot make up her mind. 2 hours pass by... The fashion show was great, but we haven't gone anywhere.
BTW, is it just me or was most of the first episode made up from the teasers?
What a fantastic video!! You explained it all perfectly and with very reasonable and well put arguments!!
I mean, I gotta say, after all you said, I think we can take the rings of power as if it were a fan fiction. Amazon or anyone wouldn’t say that because of the bad publicity it would give the show, but I agree with the people that say that fan fiction, after all, is a very valid form of storytelling. And we can’t pretend anyone can just write in the world of any author a story that could be considered canon, specially if the author is dead and can’t approve that. I think that belief, the one that canonical stories could be made of a world already created by another person, would undermine the individual value of each author, the one that makes them unique and therefore makes the artistic work also unique since that uniqueness of the author is poured into the book. So basically, The Rings of Power is the most expensive fan fiction that has ever existed. I think that with that mindset people would enjoy the work a lot more. After all, fan fiction is the tool we (the audience of any work) have to put a part of ourselves in the works we love without undermining the creator’s rights to said work.
I hope I didn’t explained myself badly. Anyway, great video again!! :)
No, I COMPLETELY agree with you! Fanfiction gets a bad rap but it's a completely valid form of storytelling; and most importantly, people need to understand that it doesn't negate the real thing. That still exists.
If they had marketed it as such, none of the bad discourse the show is currently facing would be happening. They chose not to market it as what it really is, in order to get the interest of a wider audience.
A very disingenuous move in my opinion, and I believe nobody should be expected to be prepared to accept it as fanfiction when they marketed it as an adaptation. And so it should be judged as an adaptation.
@@AmeenRidwan I doubt the discourse wouldn’t have happened since most of it is based on stupid people complaining about women and black people (and those problems wouldn’t be stopped with more clarification from Amazon since people would still have ignored that in order to let their prejudices out). Also, I agree that it is not a nice move not to promote it as a fan fiction bu that’s literally what it is. We can’t judge it as an adaptation since it’s not adapting anything, and it is not adapting anything because they do not have the rights to do so. The fact that Amazon chose to market it as one way because profit doesn’t mean people should say something that is not true and keep spreading it, and they have said like a thousand times that they don’t have the rights to the Silmarillion so it’s not like a hard thing to do research of. Hell, this video is very informative and is just 9 minutes long.
@@Antonio-oc8ub This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
@@Antonio-oc8ub Are you serious? Go watch the super fans re-uploaded video to understand the vitriol... And just because people don't enjoy tokenism doesn't place their prejudice with the racists...
I mean honestly, I would have entirely no issues with this if they presented it, advertised it and outright said that the show was a fabrication and or their own rendition of a story inspired by Tolkien's works and set in the world of Tolkien, essentially just admitting to fan fiction, as opposed to supposedly being the story of the rings of power. That's my hot take. If they just outright stated that this work was fan fiction, I think most if not every rational take on this show would have to be from the perspective of, oh, it's not canon and it's not even really relevant. I think people would be able to enjoy it more from all around.
Personally, however, I think that this is just a bastardization of what little rights they have to any of the intellectual property and, as you said, a money grab. Because let's be honest, that's all most big corporate businesses care about is the money. How much money can I make by (sorry not sorry) stealing from other people. If we're totally honest, we know that Amazon created an Amazon's basics and you've heard the stories of people who had shops with products, but the Amazon Basics practically made them obsolete or competed (on their own store with their own version of the product) with unfair advantage. So really it's just fitting to see Amazon take something that just isn't theirs and ruin it with woke ideation, diversities, and non-canonical and political controversy, which they know that they will get attention and reaction from.
I swear, everything has been politicized and infected with some kind of demagoguery, some sort of vile and pernicious evil, while ironically not necessarily outright or based on the sole grittiness of the content itself, but rather the issues of truth and honestly. The literal application of integrity and respect to the context of accuracy to be found in the source content. No wonder the game of telephone is so true to application in everything we do. There are so many people who cannot repeat what they just heard. And while some form of argument might say that such a statement is just horrible or controlling and manipulative, that it's something of oppression . . . well, as Delores' Umbridge once said (and perhaps ironically, the only thing she ever likely said that actual held any kind of ground as a principle of stating), (we) must have order. We don't need facism, or socialism, or communism . . . but we do need some form or rule of law. We need to be able to respect each other and choose to live in some kind of harmony, else there would be lawless chaos. However, this comment has clearly broken the realm of tolkien and evolved into other stages, or rather other ages of discussion, beyond the realm of Tolkien.
The truth in my eyes (or rather, my opinion) is that this "Rings of Power" show, is nothing more than a gaff and a money grab based on the works of Tolkien and intermixed with modernism, which really pulls you from the narrative. What we really want and need is more Peter Jackson. His changes and additions were more tasteful, humorous, and cool, as opposed to woke and incredibly controversial. Yes, I know that even Jackson's films broke canon to some degree, but I'd rather have some smaller (though still relatively, perhaps, large) changes, than huge character/world breaking (in the realm of canon) scenarios.
Again, I do realize that Jackson did not run the tightest with the narrative, but the points goes beyond what I have the patience to try and respectfully write, due to the nature of the world and the fact that everything seems to bleed into the realm of politics and the state of our ever fallen world.
I heard that the Tolkien estate was actually the one who approached Amazon to ask that they buy the rights. Supposedly, they couldn't just sell the rights to the Silmarillion by itself, because there was an option in the contract of the studio or whatever that already had the LotR rights that said they(with the LotR rights) would get first dibs on the Silmarillion rights if the Silmarillion rights were put up for sale. So, by having someone(Amazon) buy the LotR rights, then Amazon may have also obtained first-dibs on possibly buying the Silmarillion rights in the future. Or something like that?
I have also heard that Tolkien's son DESPISES the LotR movies, and thinks the movies were not sufficiently faithful adaptations, or such. (And Amazon has allegedly been working very closely with "world-renowned" Tolkien experts and the Tolkien estate to make sure that, while they don't put anything in the show that is only in the Silmarillion and thus not within their legal rights to touch, they also don't put anything in the tv show that directly contradicts anything in the Silmarillion either; although, obviously, many people are debating how successfully they have actually done so or not thus far.)
So I am wondering if perhaps, like I once saw someone else postulating elsewhere on the internet, maybe it is actually true that Amazon may be on the hook to try and produce a tv show that pleases the Tolkien estate(NOT that pleases LotR fans) in the hopes of also securing the right to the Silmarillion proper ... in the future?
But I haven't done my own research to actually verify any of those claims or not-I'm just saying, if those claims are even remotely true, then that hypothetical/theory could actually make a lot of sense. (Like, it might be necessary, that this tv series HAS TO EXIST in order for there to even be any chance of a Silmarillion adaptation ever existing also-and maybe this was the best way to go, rather then just re-adapting the LotR or Hobbit? I dunno 😅 🤔🤔🤷♀️😁)
I honestly WISH I could get to the bottom of the whole "rights" thing. I have no idea what the real story is, and I just truly don't think the info is out there (I've tried to research but have only seen theories).
I have also heard taht Chris Tolkien hated the movies. I don't think he liked all the fighting since he views his fathers work for the themes. I get that...but I also love the movies LOL (I do think the books are better tho...)
@@Bookborn Alas! ~Maybe someday it'll all come to light. (We can dream, anyhow.)
Yeah, I guess we'll see how well the RoP tv series holds up the themes or not. 😁 But Saame, thoughh; I also love the movies, but can totally understand someone[ especially someone close to the author] feeling differently about what the strongest take away(s) from any story should or shouldn't be, and that's totally fair too. ((I haven't read the books yet myself[ except for The Hobbit and a little bit of the Silmarillion], but considering how most adaptations usually compare, I really don't doubt they are better-plus, from what I have heard about the books from people who have read them. Lol))
With an IP that helped to define what the 20th century understood as fantasy and an author who wrote the lore before the stories, lore, canon and accuracy matter. That's why Jackson's movies resonated and became cultural markers. He did his best to respect and honor the author and his creation. Amazon is making generic fantasy using middle earth names.
LORROP feels like the movie Willow (World) had a baby with Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream (Dialogue tone) as performed by the highschool drama department, who invited Marvel to babysit Galadriel (PEWPEW Protagonist). But my 7 year old likes it so I'll watch it.
Omg this description 💀
Thsnks for your view on this. From my point of view, I liked some (few) of the characters. I liked the visuals, but found many situations just silly, like Galadriel swimming the Sintering Seas or Elrond and Celebrimbor just leisurely walking to meet the Dwarves. The elves in Harad frlt like a Roman garnison patrolling Hadrian's Wall. I felt strangely disconnected from Middle Earth. So while this show may have some good moments, it never feels like Tolkien's secondary world to me
Galadriel jumping into the sea made me laugh out loud. WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO NOW??? It's so silly lol.
Middle-earth is a Star Wars style media empire now. All of the media properties have diverged from the books in some way. LOTR:TROP is far from the worst Tolkien media tie in--recall those terrible 1970s cartoons
I’d take the cartoon over this schlack any day
If you do a little research on Tolkien, he wanted to define "English Heroic Romance" a.k.a. English fantasy. Well, he succeeded. So can Amazon create a story fantasy story in middle-earth? Well yeah, that's why Tolkien created such a rich universe. I think the real question is if this will be a good story worthy to be included as part of the myth. Hey, there dozens of conflicting stories about the Knights of the round table. We can stand to have two about Galadriel and Elrond...
Excellent point about King Arthur, although for some reason Tolkien's fans in particular get so worked up about his "intentions", whereas Arthur has a less clear lineage to a single author. But thank you for the reminder that Tolkien was interested in English Mythology, and if there's anything with mythology, there's multiple versions.
I think there are two ways this show should exist:
1) Adapting what the author did write (there are always little changes and interpretations, that's fine)
2) Making a heavily inspired show but make this clear.
Using the name of someone else and not trying to show his work is a betrayal
A betrayal on the author (who couldn't even defent himself any more, in this case)
A betrayal on the fans. And this might be even worse for "casual" fans because they will probably not know that they didn't get what they wanted.
A self betrayal on all creators involved which never will know if there did good work.
For this reason I think a "Rings of power" show could/should exist but not the one that does exist
I think that's a fair take!
I love those books. The first time I read the Hobbits I was 8 years old in 1968. Since then I have read the Legendarium several times. I will not watch the show because it has almost zero connection to Tolkiens books. Tolkien is about language and the language in this film is really bad. I find the dialogues of the elves ridicolous and nonsensical. The elves specially Gilgalad seem to be humans. They are shown either as lifeless whimps or fascistoid dictators who terrorize humans because 1000 years ago they helped Morgoth. They break Tolkiens lore so needlessly, like the story with her brother. BTW they never name him and she had three of them who all died in the first age. If she had taken this ship she would have found Finrod alive and well in Valinor since he was immediately reincarnated after his sacrifice to Beren. He did not die in battle, but he was killed by one of Saurons werewolfes when he helped Beren and Luthien. Galadriel actually had two brothers who perished in the battle of sudden flame?, but now Amazon needed to bastardize Finrod Felagunds story instead. I was weary. But I waited and watched two episodes. I have enough. It is stupid to watch Galadriel down a boat in the middle of the ocean. It is enough.
That and Finrod was first to discover men and he played and sang mystical songs to them that summoned numerous beautiful things to life around them. This is also where the Edain came to be and become the Faithful Numenoreans later on. Of the first 25 kings including Tar-Minyatur who was Elros-Elrond’s Twin Brother and that’s a whole other story which ties in Maglor and Maedhros!
As someone with not a deep knowledge of Tolkien books, but someone who enjoyed watching adventures on LOTR and The Hobbit, if the show is good and has that same vibe from LOTR , that's good enough for me, we shouldn't care that much about who made it if it's good and enjoyable :).
Tbh, I think you are the majority of viewers!
I am curious as to your opinion about other people adding to someone else's IP, though from this video I think you are ok with it.
If some company were to now decide that they are going to expand the Lord Ruler's story from the diary notes of mistborn and create a series out of it....obviously if they didn't have BS's permission to do that then it would be illegal...but is it any different if they did that after many years with permission from his descendants?
Should anyone (including the authors descendants) have the right to make changes to the authors work after he has died?
In fairness, I personally wouldn't. I'm just saying it's inevitable. There will always be someone who WILL do that, because companies want to profit from it. That's why I say technically this show doesn't exist...but because it does, I'm giving it different metrics to judge since they don't have the rights. Idk if that makes sense.
In my perfect world, where I was Lord Ruler, all adaptations would be as close to the book as possible 😁
I am surprised that for as much money as Amazon paid the appendices is all they bought. Given this the showrunners needed to use a lot of creative license for this show. And I have enjoy the first two episodes. How would Tolkien have thought of this show? He would have hated it. His son Christopher Tolkien hated the Peter Jackson movies.
It has nothing to do with money - the Tolkien estate refuses to sell the rights to anything else (JRR sold the LOTR rights ages ago so they have less control over that)
NO!!!!!! just because you can does not mean you should. Tolkien fans wanted to see Tolkien's works, not poorly written fan fiction. New viewers that watch this show will think Tolkien is trash and be turned away from his real works, not knowing that his real works are actually good. This show also has a lot of woke themes in them that have nothing to do with Tolkien. I would recommend this show to toxic feminists that need to see weak/incompetent males and Mary Sues in order to relate to the show.
That and he loved women and his works had many powerful female characters. Powerful in various ways. And even male characters had power, of will, of goodness, of fairness, patience, forgiveness, will to protect etc etc. need I remind people Of Edith. His tombstone together with hers says Beren and Lùthien. And each stone also has the crest. One for Berens line and Lùthien’s House Of Thingol!
Even if the creators had zero rights to Tolkien this show would still be pathetically poor. Four episodes in and the plot still hasn’t advanced much not to mention the awful costumes and boring characters. Now adding Tolkien’s name adds more pressure to produced something fantastical.
I like some of the characters, but I'll agree that not much has happened. Episode 5 is a turning point for me: if threads don't start coming together, I don't understand how they are going to pull the season together as a whole.
As someone who has read all the books and watched all the movies it does not feel like Tolkien to me. There are multiple lore breaking reasons but maybe I know to much. It would be like if we got a Harry Potter series about Harry teaming up with Voldemort to kill Grindalwalt only to find out Dumbledoor is the dark lord. The point is yes cannon matters.
I think it's fair to say that! Are you going to stop watching the show?
@@Bookborn I’m still going to see if there are some surprises in store for us in the future. I don’t mind adaptations doing there own thing but so far it’s been a bit rough
This ultimately shouldn't have been made. I understand why people may want more middle earth, but think of it this way. Tolkien himself stated how it was basically a Catholic/religious work, imagine you had people "adapting" or "interpreting" the Bible. Putting their own jargon and Philosophy into it. Christians would understandably be upset. They likely can't even have Illuvatar or the Valar as they don't even have the rights... In the books, Numenor forgets Eru, and begins to believe he doesn't exist. When Sauron takes over and they build the temple to Morgoth, sacrificing humans, Tolkien describes this as a "Satanic Religion", now think about all the people spouting how you can interpret anything from Tolkien and that they're all valid... It's nonsense... Tolkien was trying to create a myth, and in some way definitely managed. And he's on record with his feelings toward film adaptations, I think it's better to respect the work and retain the themes that the man and his son poured their lives and souls into. Than abuse it after their deaths. Not to mention Peter Jackson actually had the rights to the material he was trying to produce. And is also on record for how he didn't want to put his own baggage into it. These producers on the other hand openly flaunt about how they're going to make the story Tolkien never wrote... Well they've certainly proved themselves.
@@squaeman_2644 I agree with you 100 percent in this case it seems they have really dropped the ball. but I’m also not against a new artistic vision of things of it is respectful and even brings new life into a series. It’s a tough one for sure in this case I think we both agree on this one as far as I’ve seen this should have not been made. I’m also a very big fan of Tolkien as I study Proto indo European language. His translation of Beowulf is underrated and his work for language as a whole is largely over looked. At least as you pointed out we still have his English crafted mythology.
@@gregcarter9616 Agreed I love the Jackson trilogy, but also can agree and share Christophers frustration when he said they turned it into a kid friendly action movie. I understand the omission of Tom Bombadil and even the scourge of the shire. But some of the character changes are just jarring and less forgiving. (Such as Aragorn, Gimli, Faramir...) But like I said it still holds a special place in my heart as the best adaption of middle earth because they ended up retaining the themes and overall story rather than something like Aragorn or Gandalf going up against Sauron for revenge for him killing their brother or something... Like it's totally ridiculous to even associate this with Tolkien.
Lore and cannon matters. Tolkien is the pinnacle of why it matters, so to shit on that is pretty obviously intentional.
It already was public domain in our hearts. The thousands of hearts around the world. Many of which since childhood having the many books read to us as children. This man wasn't iust some fiction writer. He was giving back a mythology to England and pre England and
Reviving culture to those
surrounding lands. The man was a master linguist.
@@Makkaru112 exactly!
@@concken1 thank you. I just hope you seen my message after I edited it. ❤️
Yeah I'd say I agree with you. It's totally valid for people to have critiques and if the changes from lore are simply too much for you that is totally valid but that doesn't inherently make the show bad or people who enjoy the show stupid or fake fans. I think it feels like middle earth to me so far.
Yes, exactly this. I’m all good for people being like “this crosses a line for me and I’m not interested in watching or supporting” but being absolutely horrible online and not allowing other opinions is so tiring
@@Bookborn agreed. What happened to being able to have actual discourse about topics even if people disagree? 😩
I think a huge one thing too with House of the Dragon and Rings of power was how they initially promoted it, whilst HOTD was promoting the actual show and it’s story ROP spent a lot of it’s promotional material on how adverse and political correct it would be
"Hate comment"
"Hate comment"
Galadriel, her personality and stories are the problem.
Yeah. It wasn't clear at first but it's becoming abundantly clear that they have no problem making her extremely boring and always right. Yawn. No character development whatsoever.
It's not exactly a money grab, it's Jeff Bezos' pet project. It has been widely reported that Jeff Bezos wanted his "Game of Thrones," and his involvement in the production of the "Rings of Power" confirms those rumors (just look at his twitter profile and all his pics with RoP stuff). Also, Amazon spent a mindboggling amount of money to buy the rights and make the series. It's the largest budget ever for any film or TV series, or any entertainment product really. The other factor is that Amazon Prime is not your typical streaming service. Its role is to support Amazon's core business, its online store, and as such it can operate at a loss indefinitely. No other streaming service has similar status, except for Apple TV+ which supports Apple's sales of devices. So, the main reason RoP exists is to provide content for Amazon Prime which is noticeably weaker in terms of original content in comparison to market leaders, that is, Netflix and HBO Max (both of which have to be profitable and cannot spend Amazon money on a single series, by the way). RoP is then Amazon's prestigious series, exactly like HBO's Game of Thrones, filling the gap in terms of content disparity with Amazon Prime's competitors, and Bezos' pet project with enormous budget. The number of new subscribers, or even profitability of this series is irrelevant. Amazon will make all promised 5 seasons of the series no matter what, despite early Samba TV ratings show that it is much less popular than HBO's House of the Dragon (contradicting Amazon's own statements). In general, this is an unprecedented situation in the entertainment industry, really with no comparison in its entire history.
I guess I would argue on semantics that Bezos wanting a "Game of thrones" is the definition of a money grab since GoT was so wildly successful, you know? But you are right; streaming services are competing for content and because of that they are all rushing to do the next big thing without taking the time it probably needs to actually DO The next big thing.
@@Bookborn For sure. Some time ago I watched video, don't remember whose, unfortunately, with a very astute observation: the next big thing is NOT the next Game of Thrones, but often a wildly different series which happens to find audience and media buzz (like Squid Game on Netflix, Succession on HBO, Severance on Apple TV, or The Boys on Amazon Prime, all wildly different but very popular nevertheless). So modelling TV shows after Game of Thrones (like Amazon did with Wheel of Time and Rings of Power, Netflix with The Witcher, etc.) is a mistake. They just should make good TV shows, period, not imitate others.
It seems so unfortunate to me, if your Average" viewing audience just want to appreciate the Rings of Power as a generic fantasy show, that the series creators chose Middle Earth as a focus. Obviously, it's the most famous of all, so that's why. But there are a thousand other fantasy worlds already out there (in books, games and computer games) that would probably have made a far better basis to "hang" this on, rather than the well-established cultures of Middle Earth.
I think it's hard for readers to accept that, but I remember a LOT of people telling me (even as kids, teens, adults) "I love the Harry Potter movies but don't need to read them". And that's a KIDS book, something that's really accessible. Whereas when you compare to the Silmarillion - a much less accessible work - it makes sense that most of our viewers simply don't care about lore. Which is hard.
@@Bookborn Absolutely.
Great summary as always. As you posed your question what came to mind is the music industry. Plagiarism is said to be a form of flattery, it is however illegal. Some in the music industry have had legal battles claiming plagiarism. I have gone back and forth on some of those high profile battles too. There comes a point that if your pretending to be something you're not - you should own up to that. As with WoT, if you have the funding and backing of a studio to create an epic fantasy for the big screen, but either cant or don't want to depict cannon, then why pretend or pose that way at all? The answer to you question is in that answer; if the producers are being disingenuous at all and trying to lure viewers into their story because the are posing as something else, then I feel it is wrong and a form of plagiarism irrespective of how lawyers define it. Ice Ice Baby by Vanilla Ice was a plagiarised version of a Queen song, but no one ever felt they were trying to mimic Queen. Rings of Power is posing/pretending to be something it is not and therefore should not be made - at least not as it is presented. Same with WoT, by all means produce them, change title and names and then viewers will say "hey this is very similar to ..." but at least is not the disingenuous products we've been getting. Call it what it is...something like OR the actual thing.
Yeah I don't consider it plagerism since they are giving credit to the thing, but I do think they want to profit off the property without being true to it (which now that I'm typing it may have been your point lol). I did say with WOT that they should've just called it "The Tower" if they wanted to tell Aes Sedai's stories - they could say it was based on the WOT world but not the books. I think it would've been better received.
@@Bookborn Exactly. Call it what it is but don't call it what it aint.
It's good to see some booktubers speak up about the ridiculousness of this show and the fact that it even exists. And that people will actually defend making a show based on appendices. Or what they have done with Galadriel. How much they have changed the lore. The ridiculous hillary clinton hairstyle that male elves have.
Dude the male elf played by Kip Chapman has the name "Rian" which was the name given to the daughter of Belagund. In Sindarin it means "Queen" (Celebrian//Silver-Queen).
I bet you they all love Killary too
Still like watching this kind discussion. But have not watched an episode of rings of power and I don't feel like watching it. I suppose I'm searching for a reason to watch. But most of the reviews I see are just meh or negative. So I suppose I'm skipping this one.
You’ll love George The Giant Slayer. He is very heart warming and definitely not negative and he also tells amazing life stories at the end of each video full of lessons he’s learned. Or ones he knows we will find funny. But usually always from his life experience from childhood and up
@@Makkaru112 Don't think we share the same taste at all. Just watched one video on his channel. But seeing how many videos related to the LOTR adaptation he has just seems like he is a bit click baity. For casual Tolkien fan like me hearing "no Tolkien" again and again doesn't really mean anything.
Amazon should have negotiated a deal to do a show based on the Stormlight Archive books.....something that hasn't been done before. They should have never touched LoTR and its lore without having the rights to most of the lore.
Sanderson is fiercely protective over his rights (you can look up a great live he did about it) and won’t let a company have his works unless he’s in full creative control. Idk if Amazon Wild be willing to give him that.
@@Bookborn I'm glad he's like that, hope he keeps control over it and never has it get ahead of him or out of control like Game of Thrones did to Martin.
Great perspective. I'm somewhere between "casual fan" and obsessed. Really like the LOTR books, absolutely love the Jackson trilogy, although I realize they are not perfect, but hey, the books are not perfect either. Nothing is. If RoP has a good story, interesting characters I can connect with, I don't care if it's officially canon or not. If they start inserting modern activist "woke" politics into the story and characters, it won't feel like Tolkien or Middle Earth, and I probably won't like it. Haven't watched it yet, but it's on the list.
So far nothing political imo! And I think it's always good to keep in mind "nothing is perfect". When we start putting things on a pedestal, thats when I think we start having a rough time.
I'm kinda confused as to what woke politics means, I hear about it all over the place yet no one actually says what it is, I feel stupid for asking but could you or anyone explain it to me?
While I agree that the Jackson movies aren’t perfect , I must disagree with the books comment…the books are PERFECT, IMO.
@@chadatchison145 I'd start here: ruclips.net/video/VVNDMuQtipo/видео.html
@Chad Atchison Woke politics is often used in regards to adaptations that have changed elements on surface level (and occasionally deeper levels) to be accessible and/or inclusionary to a wider audience. A common occurrence is male characters being gender swapped to female and casting POC in the roles of characters that are written on the page as caucasian. Whilst a phenomena in modern days, for the most part, these changes don't affect the story and are nothing more than a creative decision to bring in a more diverse cast/crew and appeal to a broader audience. This is a neutral action coming from a good place, and yet it has been met with both extremely negative and positive reactions, as well as thoughtful criticism and praise of its ideal.
Some critics (and praisers) of this phenomena are simply racists/sexists. Pointing only to the change in gender and skin colour without considering whether these changes do or do not affect the story. They will merely be upset (or in adoration) by the diversity and be willing to die on this hill, whether or not the story is 'good.'
However, more thoughtful criticism of this phenomena bring up questions about if these changes have unforeseen consequences. For example, Bookborn has a great video on the Strong Female Character trope - which has been in film since the 60s but has seen a boost in popularity in recent years, with MOST Film, TV, and book stories today centring on a ‘Strong Female Character.’ This trope leads to one-note characters that portray traits more akin to males than they do females. They are often skinny and overly attractive, and are physical ‘fighters’ with theirs fists, rather than fighters with their ‘speech, inspiration, or emotional strength.' These characters also tend to fall into the ‘Mary Sue’ trope of which there are many criticisms from both sides of the argument. It has also been pointed out in recent years that commonly, Male characters will be lessened (becoming jerks, idiots, weak, or silly) in order to make the female characters more competent and heroic. This is a poor way to solve a problem and many RUclipsrs have brought up this as not the way to go.
Similarly, thoughtful Critics of race-swapping have said that switching the skin colour of a character often neglects to highlight the struggles of skin coloured bigotry or cultural bigotry in the world they inhabit. Most of these stories either ignore race all together or brush it off as a simple ‘don’t be racist’ message that we all agree with and don't need to re-told in such basic forms. If not shallow messaging, then it is implied these fictional worlds live in societies that have ‘solved racism’ which is a disservice to the struggles facing POC today and historically. Hamilton and Bridgeton are often used as example for why racially blind-casting, while a well-meaning idea, doesn’t consider the fact they both stories take place in a period of history that was deep in the slave trade industry and yet they never once discuss it… making us wonder how these POC characters would feel about their fellow POC being traded as slaves. Also similarly to the Female characters trope, ‘white’ characters will be lessened (often becoming villains or close to) in order to make POC characters look better. As with the female character trope, this is patronizing to all characters involved. One should not have to push down someone else to make themselves look better.
Anyway, more often then not when you see someone using the term ‘woke’ in a derogatory way, it means they have noticed a work of art incorporating this trend and it sets off frustration within them. While not all, a large number of them do not know how to articulate their thoughts and so, unfortunately, they lean in on racial bigotry to get their point across (though yes, there are also just flat out racists/sexists in the batch as well.) Whilst the more thoughtful critics will make essays, blogs, or lectures on why this phenomena, while a good idea, still has a lot of work to do. Hope this helps :)
Personally no, I don't think this show should have been done as it is. This might take me some time to write as I process my thoughts. I am a fan of JRRT and got into his works through growing up on Peter Jackson's films, so I have a bias hence why its going to some time.
I don't think it should exist as it is, and I must emphasize the AS IT IS part. I want more LotR media. I want to sit down, whack it on my screen and say "That was a bloody fine thing I watched." As a writer whose been writing his own novel for over 10 years and went to university for Creative Writing, I have a high standard for writing and don't want to waste my time on something that doesn't make me think that it isn't going to be good. I don't think the show should exist because I don't think the quality of the writing was good. I can't even fully critique the quality of the acting, directing, cinematography etc, because of the restraints they had, because of my view of the quality of the writing. It made me feel like the writers were only in it for the association of having written a story in Middle Earth and not because they had a story they were so passionate to write, that the story was bursting at the seems of their minds and driving out through their fingers and onto the page. And I don't use them not having the rights to The Sillymarilly (or Silmarilion for the normal people) as a reason to them falling short in quality. If anything, it shows a serious lack in judgement if they thought they could write a story about the making of the rings of power based on just a few pages in a book they do have the rights too.
When it comes down to it, it shouldn't exist as it is because I think it lacks a creative passion for the story which dropped the quality of the writing amd the fact they don't have the full rights to the story or the age they wanted to tell isn't that helpful, or even that smart.
You make a good debate and do a great job of showing both sides. My heart will always be with the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings series. Once I saw how choppy and how Amazon gutted the Wheel of Time, I could not extend any more trust to them. There are still a bunch of books by Tolkien that I have not listened to or read yet, so I am going to catch up on that instead. Also, I am now about halfway finished with listening to the third short story in the Last Wish of the Witcher series. I had COVID from August the 1st until August the 20th, and I finally got my strength back and my concentration back, so that I no longer fall asleep when I try to listen to audiobooks.
The funny thing is, I think WOT set my expectations SO LOW for the RoP show that now I'm enjoying it because my expectations were at rock bottom 😂 Glad you are feeling better!
One thing I'd keep in mind is that the people actually working on the show will have a bigger impact than "Amazon" will. It's different content creators, show runners, directors, actors, crew etc. and so any poor decisions made you didn't like about Wheel of Time were almost certainly made by people who had no impact on Rings of Power.
@@tadious9415 The people who hired those people for WOT were involved in hiring for ROP. So that is not necessarily true.
@@penmaster003 idk about you but I've met a very wide range of coworkers in my life all of us hired by the same people but all fairly different in temperament, work ethic, style, skill set, background etc. There is some connection sure but not much.
@@tadious9415 I don’t know. It’s all about track record for me. They failed to hire the appropriate people for one show so they had a bad track record. It is not unreasonable to be weary of a repeat offense.
The reason why studios couldn't jump on getting the rights to Tolkien's world is because Christopher Tolkien, who was the head of the estate, was incredibly protective of his fathers work. Its funny that the moment Christopher passed away rights started to be sold off.
I'm probably want you'd call a semi-serious/casual LOTR fan. I seen the movies several times, director's cut, of course. I've read the books (Hobbit + LOTR) multiple times. I own the Simarillion, but I haven't read it . . . yet. I have read the appendices. I can talk on the most basic level about the different ages. And? I'm really enjoying the series so far. (One commenter said it feels like LOTR via JJ Abrams and they're not wrong. But sadly, it's difficult to avoid nowadays. It's kind of the Hollywood method at this point.) What I don't want is for the Simarillion to get sold to a competitor (let's say Netflix) and now we have competing Middle Earth histories. That would get weird. If the question is "should," the answer is "probably not." But it was inevitable.
This comment may be a bit out of chronological order since I did not see your review episodes in order, but I will answer your base question. I have read the Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. I am starting to collect the other works like Lost Tales, Children of Hurin, and Christopher's histories so I hope to read all of them before I depart this world. I enjoyed Peter Jackson's adaptation of the Lord of the Rings, but I had many issues with things changed or omitted. The absence of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are chief among them. He should have at least helped them on their way, rescued them from the wights in Barrow Downs, and given them the Knives of Westernesse. The Hobbit adaptations were far worse and I can watch them, but it isn't enjoyable. I do not have an Amazon membership or a Prime account and I was hoping that the Rings of Power series would be so good and accurate that I would get a subscription just to watch it. Thanks to you and other reviewers that give thoughtful and measured analysis, I will not be wasting my money or my time. Hopefully someone will do a better job in the future. "The road goes ever on and on..."
So is that the reason RoP show runners decided to put together events and characters that are thousands of years apart, because they do not have the rights to The Simarillion? For example; I am reading that the RoP is set around 1100-1200 SA - prior to the creation of the rings and Mordor. If that is true, then how is it Numenor’s main characters Tar-Miriel, Elendil and his son Isildur are present? The first two were not born until after 3100 SA with Isildur’s birth being after 3200 SA. Do not get me wrong, if there is a reason for this retelling, then please enlighten me. I have watched every episode and must say it is nothing short of gorgeous in overall fantastical scenic views. However; as I am not someone that dove deep into the legendarium - it has not been a huge disappointment to me so far. That said; I do know LoTR rather well, so when Galadriel arrived in Numenor I was excited and shocked at the same time when I heard some of the characters call another Isi…I said to myself - wait is that supposed to be Isildur?! How?!
I don't think having the rights for The Silmarillion would have helped much. It's not like you can pick the 25 pages there and really adapt to a TV series. It's 25 page for some 5000 years of middle earth's history. The gaps are to huge to simply fill. Also, you need characters for watchers to folow, you can't do it in Silmarillion style and start with Celebrimbor, switch to Galadriel and Elrond on season 2, then, completely forget about them and go to Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad by season 3.
Ultimately I think copyright should expire 50 years after publication, these near-infinite copyright terms we have now are ridiculous.
That said I lay more of the blame on the Tolkien estate for not selling the rights as a complete package. At $250 million you may as well throw in the Silmarillion on top for free. Amazon Studios was also a bit dumb for buying the rights before figuring out what they wanted to even make.
I'm not a big LotR fan. I've been watching RoP though and it's ok so far. I'll keep watching at least until I can tell what direction it's going in.
I agree with you: why not?
I think both camps are right in this debate.
Your point about the "casuals" is spot on. For them, it's more important that it feels like Tolkien, or at least like the movies, no matter what the canon says.
That said, it's perfectly fine for „hardcore fans“ to expect an adaptation that is faithful to the canon. Amazon has chosen to make a LotR series rather than develop its own series, and that naturally brings expectations.
Personally, I don't think canon is that important to most; I just want to see a good story. The Middle Earth games, for example, are so great and fun, but they don't give a f about the lore, and that doesn't ruin my experience.
By the way, your comparison to ASOIAF is pretty good. "Fire and Blood" in this case would be the Silmarillion and "The World of Ice and Fire" would be the same as the appendix to LotR. :D
I was originally very sceptical, after they sacked Tom Shippey, but if you turn off the lore part of your brain it isn't too bad. It's not great, but not too bad. It breaks lore terribly, so if you want to sit through it you have to ignore that. I am just happy I got to see a decent representation of Numenor, but I just have to forget I read the Silmarillion. Why on Earth did they make it? I wish sincerely that the Tolkien estate had an epiphany and said to Peter Jackson, here's a truckload of money, make a faithful version of Beren and Luthien. That's not gonna happen. *sigh*. Too bad. What was the question? Oh, should it have been made, I'd say NO, but I really like finally seeing Numenor, so Noyeah.
I appreciate the question about "feel". I've chosen not to watch because I'm casting a vote against Amazon for a pattern I'm sensing develop with regard to respect for the source material that started with Wheel of Time. It still baffles me that for all the money Amazon shelled out, they decided it wasn't worth securing the appropriate rights. That is a form of disrespect toward the author, IMO. I realize my "drop in the bucket" will unlikely be heard, as both WoT and RoP drew in considerable audiences, but I'm sticking to my guns, for now. Though, I will admit, your points made me take a second look at my decision.
Isn't The Hobbit moving to the Public Domain in 10 years? LoTR soon afterwards?? If that is true, then Amazon had to jump on it while they could before the floodgates open. Feels like Tolkein? I agree - hard to answer but it seems strained so far. A lot of this seems to be a collection of 'what will the audience know about' and lets put them in this show. Not sure if I agree with that call but I understand it. Love the map work!
There is a possible comparison in Sandman. The TV series Lucifer was developed from the Sandman's version of Lucifer. The Mazakeem character, Amenadiel, and several other characters mentioned in Sandman in relation to the Lucifer storylines were used. In Sandman, there was a series of comics where Lucifer had abandoned Hell and opened a bar called Lux in LA. The television series took that storyline base and turned it into a police procedural show. When the rights went to Netflix, they finished out the show before launching Sandman. Thing is.. if a show is good and consistent within itself, people will forgive alot. The problems come with uncanny valley shows that cut too close to the basis of the source material while just being *off*. Complaints about details are generally verbalized statements that the characters are just off the underlying truth of the characters. In rop. Maybe this show will manage something, but right now, it lacks confidence in itself. The stories and dialog are kinda weak. You can survive if you tell a good story and tell it well, buy you can't survive if your claim is how pretty tge scenery is.
The question of "feel" is one I arrived at with the newest Star Trek tv shows. I felt that Discovery and Picard borrowed heavily from Marvel movies as they were full of quippy dialogue and action sequences. I ended up liking Strange New Worlds a lot more because it emphasised problem solving and diplomacy, which I come to the series for.
As for Rings of Power, to me it it feels like the three LotR films and not the books, if that makes sense. I think that's an ok compromise, at least for me!
I'm glad someone else understands the difference between us more obsessive fans and the casuals. It just doesn't make financial sense to cater only tp hardcore book fans when it's such a small amount of people.
Secondly, cannon is a personal question. The Silmarillion can't be considered "officially cannon" because Tolkien didn't publish it himself. Neither can Children of Hurin. Or the Lost Tales. For some people that's enough not to consider it cannon. For me, I don't care that he didn't actually publish them. I consider them canon.
My point is that arguing over what's canon or not is a pretty pointless endeavor.
I find this "lack of rights to the source material" line of thinking a bit dubious. They knew well ahead of time what they had the rights to and what they did not. No one forced them to center the show on characters with a lot of canonical background they couldn't use. They could have used Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Elrond, Celebrimbor, and the like as context-giving framing devices and limited these well-known fan favorites to guest appearances. Within that framework they could have created a cast of entirely new characters and told their stories.
Imagine e.g. that entire tracking Sauron in the north story without Galadriel there. Would have worked exactly the same if that troop had been lead by a newly created up-and-coming elven commander who had been given instructions in a scene with Gil-Galad and Galadriel and then we follow their unit, not knowing what might happen. Probably would have worked better than the bastardization of Galadriel they went with.
They chose this approach completely butchering canon in the process.
Yes, I think you are right. Expectations were low from star, because the did not have right to the canon. But we got Xena, Warrior Princess...
It definitely feels somehow... intellectually dishonest.But then... is it only the Akallabeth? What about the drowling od Anadune, the lost road, the Notion club papers, Tal-Elmar...
If I would wish to really write a tv show i'd make clear to have access to that material so could actually use them. They only have the outline from the appendices and can use them, but they have to ignore a lot of material for legal reasons now plus instead if being able to use original Tolkien material, they are forced to invent more of their own just to be able to show a somewhat cohesive story.
I asked my logic teacher "Should non-standard models of peano arithmetic exist?" and he replied "They exist, it's just a fact of life"
One of the biggest problems these days is that fans of every big franchise seem to nitpick everything apart, and are not simply sitting down and enjoying anything anymore. Star Wars for instance is a perfect example. I’m a huge fan of the galaxy far, far away and have so far had only one movie I really had a problem with (the Last Jedi) as that one completely upset the balance and destroyed certain lore that had been established. But…there were also fans that really enjoyed it despite that fact. And hey..I’m fine with that. But ever since that movie came out, every subsequent project seems to get over analysed, highlighting every single detail and whether or not it does, or does not fit within the timeline. And even worse, people that do like the new content are getting attacked for liking it, or have their sanity questioned. The same is happening with Marvel, and now it’s Lord of the Rings. My point is: respect. If people don’t like a show, or movie, hey that’s your right. But to completely trash it, and call it popular terms like woke, and even outright calling people out that do like it, or attacking them verbally? That’s not respect. It’s just mean, and it’s one of the biggest problems of fandom these days. The negativity seems to be drowning out the positivity, and let’s be honest a lot of the more casual viewers might not even give something a chance just because of that. And that I think is a sad thing. Nothing is perfect, and it doesn’t have to be. I want to be entertained, and I can accept to have certain deviations or liberties one takes with established lore, as long as it doesn’t go too far. And even if it does, if it’s still enjoyable I might even forgive that. So I think you did a very good job with this video. People should always form their own opinion and also respect other people’s views if they are different. It’s nice to see a video that takes a really neutral stance and is just honest as well, so thank you for this one 😊
I think something people forget is these shows are greenlit by suits who care nothing for the lore or accuracy of a product. They only care if it will make money. And not just subscriptions. Merchandise also factors in. As you pointed out a large percentage of fans are not hardcore. They will see books and boardgames based off this show and buy them not knowing it technically isn't cannon. Great video! Lol I went in thinking you were going to pull a Wheel of Time on us 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Note! Rings of Power has garnered a lot of new WoT viewers. Away from the rage of the original release, a lot of people are liking the show. Last I checked, WoT is #8 on Prime most watched.
I mean, PJ change canonical staff in Hobbit and even in LotR (many fans forget how different LotR movie vs the book). But it still great movies on its own. Hope, in the future, this will apply to series too.
i think this show can exist in such a way they write it, but then the showrunners shouldn`t be upset that devoted fans critic this mess. you as showrunners, as a studio, created this piece of work. and you named it Lord of the Rings. so now you're being upset that people don`t like what you made and saying "if you don`t like it don`t watch it..." No. I do like the world that PJ and Tolkien created so I will critique it. but the way these creators handle criticism is so ridiculous: saying that every person who did not like the show is racist, bigot etc. you took responsibility and made a 1 billion dollar show, now take responsibility and listen to what fans got to say.
When do you think that the changes make it no longer the story? I feel like any changes do. When it comes to someone else's work. Like in the IT books. I think the group sex did not need to be in the show/movies and it is not. I all so feel like it did not need to be in the books. I just wanted to use a change that I did not see any outcry for. So they are exceptions or If it is your work you can change anything you want. If you are the author the only criticism will be opinions. It may affect your sell and or it will get negative reviews. If you're not the author of something and you make changes that are not well received there is more weight behind the criticisms. Then the attachment to the original work can tarnish it for some time.
In the Rings of Power, they changed fundamental aspects so It is no longer the story that we love. Not only did they change the story. They change it in a way that would be against the author's wishes. By doing this how does someone not see this show no more than an F U to J.R.R. Tolkien and the fans? Look at the marketing behind this show. You are Homophobic, racist, and sexist if you like the books and want to see them as they are just on the screen without modern Ideas or politics. So this Fan fiction should not exist.
It does not add anything to the well-realized world of Tolkien. All it accomplishes is deconstruction and perversion. I do not feel like we need that. I am a bigger fan of the wheel of time, the books. But I am sick of this perversion of the classics. It makes me happy to see this fandom say no this is not Tolkien. I hope they keep doing this. Good for the Fans. I wish it would have been this big of an outcry for the wheel of time.
Very reasonable stance. Hopefully the overheated fans, some of whom don't seem to know that Silmarillion material can't be used (dunno how that's possible at this point), calm down enough to either reconsider watching, or just stop generating so much noise in their disapproval.
The funny thing is that GRRM is extremely far-left, but is rare among that crowd in having the intelligence to know that cramming his personal beliefs into something that is supposed to be entertainment would drive away most of his audience.
Well... It's like star wars. A lot of people considered the Thrawn triology canon, but they went and created their own story, while still using (some) of the character names from the extended universe. Fans of the EU... Needed to step away from earlier constructs and go into the last triology without it, which already caused a lot of strive. And then the actual story also wasnt that great...
Rings of power has the same issue. Fans of the world, of the Silmarrillon and of the lore will need to leave some of the constructs behind, which isnt made easier by the fact that they make Galadriel the main character and have other characters return, but set them up in a different way from the lord of the rings.
Who would have thought there would be a backlash...
Anyway, the question is, if the rings of power is a good story. It will have to be seen, but as they deviate from how characters are perceived in the lotr shows, it seems there will be a direct confrontration between the two, which is not great for viewership let alone for lasting impressions. The lotr movies are amongst the highest rated films ever, I doubt rings of power will be a match for it.
I was torn between trying to enjoy it because there's not alot of opportunity to see LOTR world on screen but I have to keep making excuses in order to watch it and that spoils it all for me personally. After watching the RUclips videos that tear it apart I felt sympathy and wanted to give it a second shot and I found myself not being able to enjoy it as a Tolkien brand story or just as a show in general. I'm upset because they had they money the perfect opportunity to do it right and they choose decisions that for me did not honor Tolkiens world and after watching some of the interviews Tolkien did it hits even harder for me how what they did is a travesty, they didn't NEED to make this show they choose too.
I have taken the path of not watching as I doubt they are making something I will enjoy. If they had done something completely radical, like deciding to focus on the 2 Istari that went to the East to counter Sauron, that there is no real information about, and build tales around them, or something like that, I might have been intrigued enough to watch, but I don't want to see their re-imaginings of well known characters and the changing of lore. But that's just me.
I don't trust any big company to make a faithful adaptation. They are going to do whatever they need to do to make the most money possible. That is just their goal and that doesn't mesh well with faithful adaptation in the majority of cases.
I think like you said we just have to wait and see if it's a decent story in its own right.
I mean if copyright were less insane LOTR would be nearing public domain anyway. We just have to realize that popular stories will always be carried on by others after their authors are gone. This can be good and or bad we just have to take it on a case by case basis and try to be civil to one a other in the process.
you should have talk about warhammer 40k ( even tho you might not know alot about it) since its a really big fantasy storie with ton of storie to tell but by always trying that its adaptation ( game inclued) is extremely faithfull to the lore sadly the fandom was dying and nothing was in the work but since Henry Cavil talk about it now people jump in and thats something important since we would never have anything since the lore was way too deep and complexe and by always be too faithful to the lore nobody exept harcore fan get whats is happening so sometime making big budget less lore friendly material at least attract new people and after they might want to learn the real lore behind it. If ring of power bring new fan it would only help to make the corporation want to make new material about it and after the more is known the more you can do deep lore material about the serie
I'm starting to think they deliberately made a terrible Wheel of Time show so people would say Rings of Power wasn't as bad as WoT.
As someone who saw the animated film in the 70s, read LOTR in 1983 and caddied for Christopher Lee at Gleneagles Hotel the same year for two days, yeh beat that lol this is a disaster.
You asked what prevents other creators from exploring Tolkien‘s world, the answer is Tolkien himself. He said in one letter( unfortunately i forgot which one) that he considers his work his and no one else’s and proceeds to explain how much he hates fan-fiction. You can argue that the movies made too many changes and you would be correct. And by definition this show cannot be anything but fan-fiction.
his son did dislike the movies, so i can only imagine what they would have thought about this
@@pIayingwithmahwii That would have been funny, in a morbid, fiendish kinda way.
Good video as always. In an ideal world, I really do wish the show had gotten the rights to The Silmarillion. That would have allowed the show’s plot to have been more straightforward, even if they changed the title. But given that that wasn’t possible, the show they made doesn’t especially stand out.
actually, why couldn't they get the rights? what's the story there?
@@alveolate be glad they didn’t
They could get you to act as an Elf in the movie! You looke more of an Elf than the protaganista of the film :)
That's great because of all the middle earth races I want to be an elf. But I took a quiz on it and it told me I was a human which is so disappointing 😂
@@Bookborn Recall what the dwarf says about Elfs when he talks about Tauriel in Hobbit. He says Elves have broad cheekbones and he says some other stuff about them but i forgot it:) Anyway, you are definetely an Elf (Celtic phenotypes, most likely originating from somewhere relavant :) )
The Tolkien estate should not have let them do it. From a responsible owners pov, this would damage the property. A show in a timeline that they did not have ownership is a recipe for disaster and puts show runners in a dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t. If they are as true as possible they need to bring in material they don’t own, if the do not bring the material in then they are making up stuff out of canon.
Great post! I agree 99.9%. I disagree only with your conclusion that the show, on balance, should not exist due to not having the rights to the Silmarillion. Leaving aside the very interesting question as to why the Tolkien estate would not sell/ grant the rights to a production company that has the resources to really do the books justice (does anyone really know, beyond "protective"?), I do feel there is plenty of material in the LotR and the Hobbit to create many seasons of brilliant Second Age material that conforms strictly to canon. Here's the thing for me: I don't mind them making things up, but I do mind when they make things up that contradict or chime badly with canon (and here I mean ALL canon, even material they don't have the rights to). It's like drawing a moustache on the original Mona Lisa: it's audacious, it's stimulating, it may even be brilliant, but ultimately it's vandalism.
By far the best take on Rings of Powers I wittnessed. Double Thumbs Up.
You are spot on with your description of the current state.
I personally don't watch the show for a couple of weeks and then watch it. I don't like the idea of big companies buying the legal rights and then pretending that they have the moral right, too. So, I try to not push their numbers but will ultimately follow my interest and if the show is good its good.
7:36 . I haven't read anything Tolkien. I haven't even watched the LOTR movies or the Hobbit. But I am of the opinion that it's horribly disingenuous to expect people to "set their expectations accordingly" when you're appropriating the name of something they like to make a show. They don't have the rights to the story they want to tell. They should not tell it. If they really do want to tell a lord of the rings story, then they should find something else. Or even better, make something up completely from scratch while still remaining true to general info about the series. If they decide to tell a story that they don't have the rights to, then they'll inevitably end up telling a story that fans of the original work cannot agree with