The multiple sources and unreliable historians is what makes it great for me, haven't read a book thats written like an in-universe history book before.
Queen Alyssane is probably the best written character in the book for me. One of her last scenes where she rides her dragon for the last time and comes down crying because she knows it’s the last time is genuinely heartbreaking
I rarely get emotional, I did so twice while reading F&B, and the first was when I was finishing the last of Alysanne, that pictire of her older really got me 😢
That period of the book is the one Martin wrote more recently and I think it shows. The other characters who can compete with Queen Alyssane for best writing are also around the same stretch of the story: her mother (Queen Alyssa), her aunt (Queen Rhaena) and her brother/husband (King Jaehaerys).
"Come no closer," warned Ser Gyles Morrigen. "Any man who lays a hand upon our king and queen shall die today." Lord Rogar was dismayed. "Sheath your steel and move aside," he commanded. "Have you forgotten? I am the King's Hand." "Aye," old Sour Sam answered. "but we're the Kingsguard, not the Hand's guard, and it's the lad who sits the chair, not you." My favorite passage in the whole book kinda.
If we're sharing passages :) "...Gwayne Hightower, second in command of the gold cloaks, rushed to the stables, intending to sound the warning; he was seized, disarmed, and dragged before his commander, Luthor Largent. When Hightower denounced him as a turncloak, Ser Luthor laughed. ”Daemon gave us these cloaks,” he said, “and they’re gold no matter how you turn them.” Then he drove his sword through Ser Gwayne’s belly...."
@@VinnieMF if my memory serves me well, i'm pretty sure Gwayne and Criston are on the way to Harrenhal the last time we saw them in the s2, if Rhaenyra and Daemon attack KL in s3, i don't see any chance we would watch Gwayne Hightower book version's death...
@@Bookborn Your reaction in that live when he said it was so funny but I can relate. Confirmed time travel in asoiaf was also traumatic to me back in 2016 😂
Your "optmism"( not really optmism, but a just a positive realness about everything) is such a breath of fresh air, because YES i love fire and blood, and if george wants to publish the part 2 instead of main asoiaf, i will still love it and I will BUY IT
@@Bookborn i dont think George would release either F&B 2 or Dunk and Egg 2 before TWOW as those 2 would spoil some things meant to be revealed in TWOW
@@ihuh1000 I agree! and basically came to the comments to say the same thing. I want Blood & Fire BAD, but I think some of the reveals about summerhall & things will be best in Winds, from Bloodraven & Bran, with more context later from B&F, then the later D&E books.
I too found King Jaehaerys's reign to be my favorite part of the book. It had so much more depth than the Dance itself because it wasn't just about a struggle for power: 1. King Jaehaerys was literally a nerd, he got excited about building roads, connecting towns, and working so hard to find the right person for the job (i.e. the Lord of Air). 2. He knew early on that he needed to be physically strong in order for people to accept him as a ruler. So he trained with the Kingsguard in Dragonestone as a teenager. 3. More than the king himself, the story did such a beautiful job at portraying what a real marriage looks like in comparison to a hot messy romance (i.e. Rhaenyra/Daemon) 4. It also brought to the forefront how children could change a marriage. Queen Alyssane was fully in love with Jaehaerys until he started making decisions about their kids that she didn't agree with: pushing Daella to be married which led to her early death; not making Daenaerys the heir even though she was older, etc. etc. 5. Umm, also Saera. There's so much to unpack there. A middle child who felt less loved by her parents. Brought so much chaos to the royal family that the king had to literally trial by combat someone half his age. Pretending he had fully disowned her but then would mistake Alicent for her when he was nearing death. Also, she's still alive? We need a full accounting of her story.
@@jimboslice6367 Mmm well he certainly wants to raise Jon Snow to Lord of Winterfell to be sure, Stannis isn't a stranger to working with bastards. But I didn't say they were the same character, just have a lot of parallels.
For Fire and Blood II - Martin actually said in a blog post on September 9th he had worked on it a bit this year so I think he intends to release it after Winds but before A Dream of Spring
I didn't hear about that. I'm actually a bit sad because I wanted F&B 2 to have a section on the events of ASOIAF, so we can see how biased and off the Citadel's accounts of the story we've read are.
Another interesting thing about the Baratheon-Targaryen connection, is that Robert’s (and Stannis and Renly’s) grandmother was a Targaryen. One of the reasons he was chosen to become king out of the main rebels who overthrew the mad king, was because they felt him being partially Targaryen would make him look more legitimate to Westeros. Also, would love a video on how you felt about the Greens and the Blacks, both really compelling sides with lots of interesting characters. For me the Greens are one of the most interesting families in all of George’s ASOIAF world
It kind of leans to the history of kinslayers being cursed too, from the moment the hammer killed Rhaegar, Robert lived the most miserable life for being a king.
@@GreyMagee74 Could be, although I don't think Martin intended it that way. It's only his second-cousin (or however it's called in english), and they probably never viewed each other as family.
@Fenix-lr6ez maybe, maybe not. It's just one of those amazing wrinkles in the universe. And with their relations, we won't know until George says so, or there is some spinoff story about the Rebellion where we get their POVs and get that glimpse into their mind about each other. (we definitely won't be getting this sadly😂). I would think they did call each other cousin to a point because they grew up together till Robert went to The Vale since Steffon was Aerys' other best friend and was a part of his Small Council till he died. That's just my opinion based on the facts we know from the stated Canon i could be completely wrong.
@@GreyMagee74 oh I didn't consider Steffon being in Aerys' council, true. Although wasn't Rhaegar like 8 years older than Ned and Robert? If so, Rhaegar would double Robert's age when they were together, so dunno if they had any relations. But as you say, we'll never know for sure unless George decides to dig deeper into it. Cheers!
Did I miss that their grandmother was a Targaryen in the main series?? Probably since I didn't think much about history lol. I was on team Black...I know there was a lot of reason not to be buuutttt still lmao
So, the thing with Valyria The main accepted theory is that Dragons aren't natural, the Valyrians used magic to combine Fire Wyrms with Wyverns and birth the dragons. These Fire Wyrms are what are thought to have been inside the Princess As for what hurt Balerion, we have no idea, it's possible that somehow another dragon survived and fought him
@@Bookborn i also really like the theory that balerion didn't just die of old age, but that his severe injury played a major part in his demise, which is why dragons could possibly get even older than he was at the end of his life.
I think this is one of those passages where Martin shows his admiration for Lovecraft and his fascination with eldritch horrors. He also does it in the main series, in everything relating to Euron Greyjoy and the Drowned God of the Ironborn, or even with the Squishers of the legends of Crackclaw Point.
@@K4neki_CNTP I always assumed that Balerion had some worms in it and they slowly killed him. I realize now on reflection that I have no evidence for this.
GRRM said that the version of Viserys I in House of the Dragon is better than the version he wrote in the book. Honestly so much is gained in adaptation sometimes and Viserys I in the show is one of the best characters in the ASOIAF universe and one of best performances as well. In the book you just know of him, but in the show you follow his entire reign and see the person who the maesters considered uninteresting. You might wanna check out the show.
Just wanna add my support to this comment, House of the Dragon is an amazing detailed adaptation of Fire and Blood, and expands on the text and has some unexpected decisions that I found really thrilling as a F&B enjoyer. Even if you have no desire to watch Game of Thrones, I would say check out HotD!
@@TheKillaShow It’s still impressive considering that most adaptations tend to lose complexity, not gain them. If they hadn’t put the effort Viserys could have been a fat fool and no one would have cared because no one expected more.
Any time I hear someone call this series nihilistic, it makes me think either a.) they don’t understand nihilism, or b.) they haven’t actually read the series. I love that, as someone with a wide booktube audience, you continue to highlight George’s romanticism. I think ASOIAF is some of the most effective fantasy hopecore since LOTR. George: “One of the great things that Tolkien says in Lord of The Rings is “despair is the ultimate crime”. That’s the ultimate failing of Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, that he despairs of ever being able to defeat Sauron. We should not despair. We should not go gentle into that good night. So winter is coming, but light the torches, drink the wine and gather around the fire, we can still defy it!”
While I think Martin wrote a very compelling story in ASOIAF, I still think his work is very cynical and bleak though. I mean, can you name even one heroic character who is virtuous and actually smart? Because the rest of these good people are written to be dumb and naive who got killed easily.
@@nont18411 Brienne is written to be the epitome of romantic heroism - "No chance, and no choice" is not her being "dumb and naive", it's understanding that evil prevails only if good people who can do something about it refuse to stand up. Even if, yes, sometimes they lose their lives doing so. "Doing good is not always easy but that's when it's the most important to do it" is basically a core tenet of the series (Maester Aemon says something very similar but about duty)
@@nont18411 Easy. Davos. No question. "If Joffrey should die...what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly. (ASOS, Davos V) This quote works on multiple levels, to Davos, whether it’s a truly innocent lad like Edric, or that little shit Joff, the answer remains, still, everything. He volunteers the information that he had Edric smuggled away, kneels, offers up his life to his king, and stands by his beliefs. Davos isn’t even concerned solely for his own moral compass, but that of the king he believes to be the one should rightfully sit the throne, doing his best to save that in his journey too. Previous reply already named Brienne, and I’d agree, people in-universe only consider her stupid/naive because she’s hulking and honourable, typical stereotype applied to other characters too even when untrue. GRRM’s best heroes come from this ilk, that of outcasts. Jon the bastard, Brienne the ugly maiden, Davos the upstarted smuggler. Just because some die or make mistakes in the process, doesn’t mean they’re unheroic. The idea is not to fall prey to the cynicism of those perpetuating cycles of the game, no matter how dire the circumstances.
@@Bookborn My pleasure! Here’s another cut from the same cloth, in relation to the discussion being had with @nont18411 here: GRRM: “My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.” Shooting the THANK YOU back at ya! Very grateful for this feeding of ASOIAF content from a fresh perspective.
The World of Ice and Fire is a lot like Fire and Blood, but with incredible art. There is some overlapping material with the Targaryens, but a ton of new stuff with other houses and the rest of the world.
The world of Ice and Fire is more of an encyclopedia. But the first 100 or so pages cover Fire and Blood part 1 and 2. But it’s really brief and he doesn’t go into as much detail. So for instance, Fire and Blood part 1 is covered in about 60/70 pages. To give you an example of how brief it is. But I’d suggest reading it just so you’d get a summary of Fire and Blood part 2. Even though it’s not in detail. It lets you know the main events. And the Blackfyres come to play in that portion of the story and it’s really good imo. It makes me want Fire and Blood 2 even more lol. But at least you have an idea of the story. The rest of the book reads sort of like a textbook tbh and I never got through the entire thing. But the first section, I recommend because it tells you what happens after Fire and Blood Part 1 ends.
its honestly crazy to me that bookborn went from super not-a-fan of whatever she heard of martin & asoiaf to like being a super fan of it when she actually sat down and read it. I kept track of merphy napiers readthrough and she dropped it like mid way of clash of kings or after it, which disappointed me, so I was expecting bookborn to have a similar experience given both merphy and bookborn seem to have similar tastes and limits on what they can handle. I was so (happily) surprised when she finished all 5 books, and then A REREAD of AGOT followed by F&B. like good lord!!!
Idk why i always somehow disliked merphy i felt as she always comes off pretentious so every time she shows up on my fyp i just roll my eyes and skip. Didnt know she dropped asoiaf, seems she always drops the good ones
@@ihuh1000 Merphy Napier didn't drop it cause she wasn't liking the writing, she dropped it cause the scenes of violence, war and trauma (specially to children and mothers) were way too realistic, visceral and triggering for her especially since she was in the process of adoption at the time...
I personally like the place George ended it, its right at the start of the Targaryens transition from dragon lords, to just lords. Which i believe will tie in nicely to the themes of Fire and blood II.
You can really tell which characters in F&B George loved the most because they get their own little coda and retrospective when they die. Like Rhaena Targaryen, who’s my personal favorite character in the book. George jumps forward in time just to detail her life up until her death in Harrenhall. His sendoff for her made me tear up.
I think one of Georges most interesting takes on loyalty within ASOAIF would have to be Theon and his loyalty to his Greyjoy family, committing horrific warcrimes against his “adoptive” family to prove himself to his father and their brutal culture, even if it means destroying the only people who ever showed him any sort of love or acceptance
I have never really been into reading, but i began reading this after i watched House of the Dragon because i wanted to know how that story would unfold. And it has really started my reading journey, i love to read now. I also just finished A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms last week and now i'm reading the Hobbit and have The Lord of the Rings to look forward to afterwards. But looking back, i don't know what i was thinking starting a book with 700 pages, when i hadn't read anything in a long time. But i loved it lmao
George confirmed Haleana kills herself in a recent blog post titled ‘beware the butterflies’. He has since deleted it but you can still find it on the internet
He can only confirm that she died (maybe killed herself, maybe murdered) in the book. He's not writing on the show, so he doesn't know for sure. They're still writing season 3 and haven't written 4 yet.
@@carastone3473he did say he saw the plot breakdown for s3 and she still kills herself. If they change that, it'll probably be in response to his blog.
@@younoushamza wait for real?? It's like *the* book for lore and art there is for the series. And also generally speaking probably the most incredible book that fits these properties! And yes, written by George himself. Fire and Blood is even taken from one portion of World of Westeros - expanded on of course. He covers the entire history of the entire world in there, so not only Westeros and not only during the Targaryen Reign. Insane stuff, so much fun and so imaginative!
RE: Maegor's death- I like the theory that when Maegor ordered everyone who built the Red Keep executed to keep his secrets, one of them escaped through the secret tunnels they built and then used the secret passages later to sneak up and get revenge. It's poetic!
The scene that always stands out to me is the Maiden's Day Ball for Aegon III. It's such a classic fairy tale trope, when it is filtered through the historic lens it seems doubly ironic. And when the TWINS CHARGE IN ON HORSEBACK... stunning.
I love the women in Fire&Blood. My absolute favorite is Rhaena Targaryen, first rider of Dreamfyre, granddaughter of Aegon the Conqueror, and eldest sibling to Jaehaerys and Alysanne. She had been through so much, from losing her husband, and being forced to marry Maegor. She's also amazing for queer representation, I thought George did a great job with that in this novel. Her relationship with Elissa Farman and the possible explanation for how Daenerys got her dragon eggs is really cool. I also love her reign over Harrenhal and Dragonstone, and the fact that at the end of the day she just wanted peace for her and her daughters. I could write novels about how underrated I feel she is 😢 Like come on, Aegon the Conqueror CRIED when he held her for the first time!!! She's the GOAT!!! (I do also love your picks, Alysanne is an amazing woman)
i know you haven’t watched the shows, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on hotd. im one of the few people who love both f&b and hotd, i think they’re really good companion pieces to one another and ive loved most of the changes and additions to the source material. it’s definitely a transformative adaptational approach that works as an interpretation of the book’s unreliable narrative. it also seems more in line with the themes and fantasy elements of asoiaf than what game of thrones was
I also just finished Fire & Blood for the first time and couldn’t agree more about the level of characterization and narrative tension that was packed into a “history” book. It also warms my heart and blows me away that this is what George does for fun when he’s stressed about Winds of Winter. Can’t wait for Blood & Fire. Edit; World of Ice and Fire is also great! Definitely much more of an encyclopedia but the details it goes into in regard to the world outside of Westeros is really interesting.
It’s been so fun to see you go from not being sure about getting into this series to now loving this history book! I also love Fire and Blood; I named my cat Rhaena after Queen Rhaena. I would love to see you do a video that is a deeper dive into some of the theories and such that came out of this book. Like who killed Maegor, are the eggs that Elissa Farman stole Danny’s eggs (yes obviously!!!), or just some of the weird magical stuff going on with the Targs and their dragon bonds. Also: you did much better with these names than you have yourself credit for!
"He knew how to do lots of plot, and when to inject quotes and conversation when it really benefitted the story." To me, this is easily the greatest strength of F&B. George uses dialogue sparingly, but he uses it to inject humanity and characterization, to dramatize the important and epic moments, and to drop some of the funniest beats in the story. This book was always going to be a tightrope walk between info-dumping and narrative storytelling and imo he nailed it. I also love how often George finds room for something really silly and purely comedic in the book. Shout out to the priest-king Lodos, who called on krakens to defeat Aegon, and then walked into the sea to "take counsel" with the Drowned God when they didn't appear.
Yep, GRRM is a masterful writer. This is what makes us readers come back again and again, even when we're so frustrated with him. Don't know why, but I find it very validating to hear how much you love ASOIAF.
World of Ice and Fire is a beautiful art book and most certainly worth a place on your bookshelf or coffee table. It will be a quick read for you, but that gives more time to savor the art that is all George approved.
@@Bookborn I'd always recommend reading the preview before buying it. For TWOI&F there's a good chunk on Google Books available - though it lacks the illustrations.
@@Bookborn it wasnt written by george but by two of his few confidants that know the plot of asoiaf so its written with george his blessings and notes plus its written similary to the style of fire and blood all thought less detailed and more general but gives a lot of information not found in the books especially worldbuilding it more like " a measter wrote an encyclopedia"
It's an interesting read if you wanna know more about the world, and it has basically an abbreviated version of F&B part 2, but it does read much more like The Silmarillion than F&B does, it doesn't have as much narrative as you described, but still a fun read though.
Also, note that Robert Baratheon's grandmother is Rhaelle Targaryen -- it is what the Maesters use as justification for his claiming the throne after his conquest (despite the conquest alone being pretty convincing) (also, apologies if you referenced this -- have this on while working so not processing all words).
@@Bookborn it's 2 very small references. Early in Clash when Catelyn meets with Renly he mentions vaguely the blood ties between them, and then near the end in Feast Aemon mentions Stannis having dragon's blood through Egg's daughter, Rhaelle.
As for the 'what's happening in Valyria?' Question, the answer is probably that George Mystery-Boxed it, so he doesn't even know. It's most likely a magical-Armageddon/chernobyl or a nuclear fallout
I'm a big fan of the theory David Lightbringer posits - that the faceless men liberating the slaves interrupted ritual sacrifices that kept the fourteen flames dormant. Love the idea of their abuse of human lives and pure hubris was ultimately their downfall. And additionally, that one of the Dragonlords, possibly Aenor, put it all in motion. Aka The Doom was an Inside Job. I'm sure you're right that George himself has no clear answer, but it's fun to think about!
He has mentioned that he probably won't explain stuff like Sothoryos, Asshai and most of those mysterious places because he only created those areas as the limits of the known world so that there is an explanation of why people don't go there and explore more but he doesn't want readers to lose focus on the main plot which is what matters to him.
The World of Ice and Fire is definitely worth a read. It is more of an encyclopedia/coffee table book (not a secret masterpiece like F&B), but it's full of lore details that are not anywhere else. A lot of it is written by George, but some is also written/summarized by his assistants Elio and Linda. The whole middle of the book is the history of the Targaryen kings. George wrote so much for this section that they couldn't fit it in the coffee table book, so what got published is a fairly dry summary (he expanded on what he wrote to make F&B volume 1... and hopefully volume 2) Much of the book is about pre-Targaryen Westerosi history and about far off cultures, and reads more like myth because the maesters don't have good historical sources. A lot of esoteric fan theories have their basis in the mythical lore nuggets in TWoiaF
You should totally read The World of Ice & Fire. First off, it has beautiful illustrations, it’s such an enjoyable experience. It also covers so much of the world you’ve wondered about! The Dawn Age and the Long Night. Asshai. Summerhall and Mad King Aerys’ reign. Worth it!
To hopefully put your mind at ease, George has said in the past his plan is to finish Winds, and then write more Dunk and Egg, write Blood and Fire (F&B 2), and then Dream of Spring
Loved your video!! Would love to know your thoughts on Saera (daughter of Alysanne and Jaehaerys), Queen Alicent and Nettles. Also were you Team Green or Black during the Dance?
Saera was WILD lmao but I also felt sooo much for Alysanne at the end of her life when she was trying to reconcile with Saera and Jaehaerys wasn't willing to. Just...idk so realistic, so sad. Queen Alicent is the worst ☠ Ok, that's unfair, but I can only think of her being like "OH SO YOU JUST WANT REVENGE???" to Rh*** (whatever I don't feel like looking up how to spell her name lmao) and it's like MS ALICENT look at your life look at your choices!! So anyways I was team black lmao
Jahaerys pardoning rogar baratheon is one of the hardest paragraphs i have ever read. And then he just casually show him what real power is. His dragon vermithor. He just command so much presence in that paragraphs that the pages become short to contain it. Like i literally remember it reading it 10+ times again and again.
Fire and blood might be my favorite book in the asoiaf world. Rhaena Targaryen (sister to jahaerys and alasayne) is my favorite character. She went through so much
Love Rhaena as well. She's a pretty bad person (especially to her husband and daughter) but so compelling. Her threatening Lord Baratheon to not take any other wife after Alyssa was peak Rhaena.
She's also one of my characters, she's a bit of an asshole but that's what makes her very interesting in the drama, which is why I also have Rhaenyra as one of my favorite characters
It's heartwarming as both a longtime viewer of the channel and a fan of ASOIAF to see you fall for this series. Your perspective helped me rethink how I viewed some characters and reconsider a lot of the unhinged crazy speculation that so much of the fandom historically has done.
Have you seen that YT video "the two types of fantasy"? It's like Type 1: "Aw my gad there used to be majestic dragons painting the sky with their wings. One day they'll return and grace us with their beauty." Type 2: "Oh my god the dragons are coming to burn our town, animals and us as well, run!!" ASOIAF is type 1 and F&B is type 2 😂
@@Frey_Gray i think it's more that that type of power corrupts and sets whoever rides a a dragon be orders of magnitude more power than everyone else. the reality of that world is that they bring destruction and oppression. the only issue is that the trags and their dragons were the only real institution that could contain the faith. which had its own horrors.
I'd love to know your thoughts on Rhaena (daughter of Aenys I), I loved reading about her life and the journey she goes through. I love when she confronts Rogar, too: "Hear this, my lord. Do not think to wed again. Take care of the whelps my mother gave you, my half-brother and half-sister. See that they want for nothing. Do that, and I will let you be. If I should hear even a whisper of your taking some other poor maid to wife, I will make another Harrenhal of Storm's End, with you and her inside it."
@@Bookborn I was hoping to ask you about Rhaena if nobody had already, but she's clearly very popular! I adored her as well especially as some wonderful queer representation, her connection to Dreamfyre is a big part of why I found the Dragonpit scene so gut-wrenching. I absolutely agree with you on Fire and Blood in general. it's a somewhat divisive book, but I really really enjoyed it and you verbalised why I think I found it so good really well. When I finished it, I found myself thinking I would be just as happy with a sequel to it coming out as I would with TWOW - I'm not sure how true that is, but I loved the book. I do sort of agree with you on the ending, though - while the end of the Regency works okay as a final chapter, ending with Morning's death would've been very thematically appropriate. I suppose that going into Aegon III's reign would sort of necessitate introducing his and Viserys' children without any real character payoff for them, which might have been an influence on the decision. I would love to hear you doing a full breakdown of the book, your opinions are so interesting and well explained. I completely understand if you don't want to spend that long doing that though, lol. I an interested in what you thought of Jaeherys overall? I honestly hated him by the end, and I've seen several other fans feel the same - I really love how throughout the series he's built up as the incredible conciliator, the best king ever, but then when George reveals his actual life he was so awful to his family (especially Saera!) that I just. eugh. A few other people have also asked, but additionally, do you have any thoughts or speculation about what convinced Aegon to abandon Dorne? I saw a theory that Rhaenys was still alive in the Hellholt dungeons and would be tortured if the invasion continued, with the letter possibly even written in her blood, which seemed awfully chilling and just like something George would write. On that note, actually, what did you think of Rhaenys and Visenya? Do you know the theory that Aegon I was infertile? How do you feel about it? Loved the video and all of your ASOIAF content, looking forward to more whenever you're able to release it!!
She is my favorite in the entire book... her last days alone, sad in Harrenhal befriended by a crippled man named Maegor who was kind to her all just so bittersweet... Rhaena is so precious to me.
His recent blog post was about how he's currently writing both Winds and Blood & Fire right now, and the latter comes much easier to write for him so it's quite likely that we will get the second volume after Winds (he just needs one really good year for writing and I think Winds will come out). Some of the material that will be in Blood & Fire is already published in The Wolrd of Ice and Fire coffee table book so it's safe to assume he won't take forever to write it.
"Fire &Blood" is a long book, but compared to the books in the main series, it is very easy to read. Plus, I love reading history books, so that one was the perfect book for me. I watched "House of the Dragon" before reading "Fire&Blood", but when I re-watched season 1, I was a little bit emotional seeing "jaehaerys I targaryen",because I now know the story of his life. Also, I might be one of my favorite targaryens.
And she's back! I loved Fire and Blood. Having a few false narrative attempting to create the history of the targ lineage. With mushrooms nonsense it's great
RE: How George RR Martin writes such great women characters- --George Stromboulopoulos: "Another thing that's interesting about your books...I noticed that you really write women well, and really strong. How do you do that? Where does that come from? --George RR Martin: "You know... I've always considered women to be people."
I'd be really interested to hear you and Preston have another convo now that you've read Fire & Blood. Feel like you two had a great back and forth last time!
Ok. Your opinion on the motherhood and the irreconcilable differences between the interests of Rhaenyra and the vilified Alicent are a must!!! I believe this can give you some meat for your catelyn defense video too!
SOoooo many thoughts, although I'll admit that Alicent does see pretty villainous ☠ Although perhaps there is a argument to be made how history is written...
@@BookbornThis is something I really like about how the show adapted it (which I'm aware you have no interest in watching! No worries), making them both more nuanced and even sympathetic. People hated this but it makes sense to me. Who wrote F&B? Maesters. Idk about y'all but the citadel always reads as misogynistic to me. It would make sense that any woman in power that isn't chaste or submissive would be cast in an evil light.
@@tobydorman3998 ??? Are you implying she doesn't fit in this? It's a more passive form of misogyny but it's there. The passage of her speaking to the archmaesters about letting women in comes to mind. Also, she married the king and bore him like eleven children, she did exactly what a queen is "supposed" to do in their eyes. It doesn't have to be blatantly malicious to be biased against her having power.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle My friend Kyle actually talked to me about her character in particular and said the show made some good choices to help her feel more nuanced and complicated and I think that's a cool choice. I probably have to reread to really sink in to how I feel about Aliciant...I was so on the side of Rhaenyra that I was a taaad blinded lol
Like you, I was shocked by how captivating the narratives were in this book. I had heard it was a boring history book only good for those who really wanted to know all the lore. I only read it because I didn't want to wait years for the next season of Hotd to find out what happens. To my pleasant surprise, this was a super fun and quick read. I actually loved the history book nature of the writing. It allowed him to cover a lot of interesting plot over many years with relatively few pages. But the thing that stood out the most was how he was able to give even the smallest side characters complete arcs and compelling stories. My favorites were Princess Aerea, Rhaena Targaryen, Rego Draz, and Cregan Stark.
Elissa Farman easily the most interesting character during Jaehaerys' reign. She stole the show for me with the whole "Travelling Court of Gossiping Lesbians" 😂
I am currently reading fire & blood and I was not sure if I wanted to watch your video because of spoilers but I have seen the HotD Show so I thought even having some spoilers wouldn't be so bad, but there was no spoiler for me here 🤭 I always enjoy your videos on this series :) thanks for making them :)
When I read Fire & Blood, I thought Helaena took her own life too. Then I watched Hohse of the Dragon, and it made me question the "history" repeatedly. Fascinating to examine the changes between book and show and think about the agenda of the "historians".
I Loooooved the exploration of the agenda of the historians. and then thinking...what's the agenda of the person I'm reading? even if they are saying they are being objective?
my immense want for Fire and Blood II (or Blood and Fire as i think it’s actually called) stems from it finally giving us more on the Blackfyre rebellions and bridging the gap between the main series and the post-Dance/Regency of Aegon III. I’m just foaming at the mouth at what we’ll get about my favorite period of westerosi history just teeming with creative opportunities with characters like Aemon the Dragonknight, Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteelnand Bloodraven
It is speculated that the worms that came out of the girl were how the great empire of the dawn created dragons form wyverns and Fire worms. As well how Targaryen got the blood of the dragon.
George has confirmed he’s started writing pages of Blood and Fire (Fire and Blood p2) and if you want the spark notes version of it, that’s in the world of ice and fire!
21:34 One of the big theories is that one or a few of the builders - who Maegor killed to keep the secrets of the passages under the Red Keep - wasn't present during the killing and came back for revenge. It's my favorite theory.
Concerning the incest point at 22:37, westerosi nobles don't care about aunt-nephew, uncle-niece, or cousin marriages. It's not really considered incestuous by the nobles at that point. Tywin married his cousin, Stark uncles married their nieces, etc. That doctrine is more for sibling marriages. No one would bat an eye at FAegon or Jon marrying their aunt Dany even if they weren't Targaryens.
Uncle/Aunt + Nephew/Nice isn't that common I think. The realm did frown upon Maegor for taking Rhaena as his wife iirc - though his polygamy surely inflated the negative reaction.
@@VinnieMF There were a couple of uncle/niece marriages in the North, but I guess it's not enough conclusive evidence (it could also be an Old Gods thing)
I liked where it ended. Aegon III is my favourite king, and I like that George is taking his time in chronicling his reign. And idk why, but I found him kicking out the regents to be an absurdly satisfying and triumphant ending. Plus, this means we’ll get a few dragons in the next book :)
The World of Ice and Fire isn't exactly and Encyclopedia, it's more of a world book, fleshing out places and families within the world, and is again written "In universe" by a Maester. I'd say you should read it over time, just to give yourself the best working knowledge of the world possible
Opposite of roasting you about packing character into smallest amount of words: you are spot on - my favorite part of re-reading Westoros books is finding one short sentence that COMPLETELY changes my view on what's happened before (e.g. in fire and blood, he calls the breaking of dorne from essos "maybe the most important event" on the continent.... what?! I've spent hours and hours contemplating what that single line could mean) GRRM fundamentally wrote a mystery book - but basically every single character has a secret, and the world has many many more
🟢 His prose got better 🟢 His character work got better 🔴 His plot got unfocused 🔴 The timeline has become considerably more muddled to follow 🔴 Plot progression has crawled 🔴 Point of view bloat 🔴 Feast and Dance are unfinished
Glad to see someone else praising this text! Historical narratives/monographs, if written with good prose and attention to pacing can be excellent reads. A good lesson for readers, novelists, and historians.
For characters you didn’t cover in the video I’m sure a lot of people would like to know what you thought of Elissa Farman. People like to theorize about where she went and what she did with the eggs.
When I first started reading it, I was kind of like “what am I doing reading a fictional history book”. But once you get into it, the stories are so interesting and fun. I think I read the Dance of Dragons chapters in one sitting.
Aerys II, the Mad King, has an amazing chapter in AWOIAF. It gives us an excellent backgound of Aerys and why he plunged into madness. GRRM makes even him believable and human, imo.
I know you said that you don't want to watch the show but I'd recommend you to watch at least season 1 of House of the Dragon just so you can see Viserys, even George said show Viserys was better than book Viserys. Also they have an explanantion for the reason why Aegon conquered Westeros (this was given by George) As for Fire and Blood 2 is been written as well as Winds of Winder (George said it on his blog). He'll probably finish WOW first and a year o two after he'll release Fire and Blood 2 while hr works on A Dream of Spring
I think blood and cheese was so good. I understand the horror of it, but the psychological aspect was excellent writing. It was missing in HotD and that is my biggest gripe with that series. I actually read fire and blood first and then knight of the seven kingdoms. I liked both, but I read knight in like a day. It was something I needed to keep reading so much. I prefer knight over fire and blood currently. I think George is just having a really tough time making winds the quality it needs to be. But when winds is done, dream of spring should be relatively easy to do as he will have written so much towards the ending. Winds is so hard because he needs to have a lot of Dream of spring in the back of his mind. So I would say its very possible that we get more tales of Dunk and Egg and fire and blood.
Adding to that, I strongly suspect a lot of characters are either going to be dead or in the same region by the end of winds, making the climax and conclusion of the series a little easier to tame! The struggle is getting all the pieces on the board, which I'm sure is a big hurdle to jump while writing winds. That, and from his blog posts it seems like the poor guy is not doing well mentally. Lots of friends of his are passing away, politics & world events are depressing, ect. With people hounding him for the book every time he says anything in public, I think I'd be losing motivation too. I hope things turn around for him.
Hello! I have two characters that I'd love to know your thoughts on that weren't mentioned in the vid. First would have to be Queen Visenya. Visenya is easily one of my favorite Targaryens not just because of badass she is but how much impact she had on the course of Westerosi history in the Targaryen era. A warrior who played a huge role during the conquest, first rider of Vhagar (that we're aware of), original wielder of Dark Sister (that we're aware of), creator of the Kingsguard, said to dabble in poisons and sorcery, outlived both her siblings and was instrumental in seating Maegor on the Iron Throne. The second character I'd love to hear you talk about is Septon Barth! The greatest hand of the king there ever was who had so much wisdom beyond his years. A common refrain among the fandom is that you can always bet on Barth. If conventional wisdom says something and Barth says something else, then 9 times outta 10 you should go with Barth. Aemon even mentions something to this effect when he's on the boat with Sam in Feast. He says something along the lines "Barth had the truth of it!" when referring to whether dragons have a defined Male and Female sex or not and this is still believed to be correct now. Of course he wrote so much over his life and much of it was burned by Baelor the Blessed (ironic considering Barth was a septon, but just not a total fanatic like Baelor). Also in regards to The World of Ice and Fire. That book is more of an encyclopedia than Fire and Blood is but I still absolutely recommend it just for the beautiful illustrations alone but also because it was co-written by the same couple that co-wrote fire and blood. While it is more encyclopedia than F&B it is still written from the in-world perspective of a maester and has some narrative structure to it. But rather than talking about just the Targareyns its more of a broad focus on the whole world. Thanks!!!
When it comes to the Dragons, Sunfyre is a fan favorite. Aegon II's golden glory. GRRM somehow managed to weave a whole arc for a dragon amidst this sprawling narrative. You seriously need to dissect GRRM's writing style and make a video of it.
A line that struck me as particularly memorable is that the last thing written about Alicent is how she developed an “aversion to the color green.” That says so much with such few words! How futile all her efforts to further her family’s cause must’ve seemed to her by the end 😢
I lkve Fire and Blood because HOTD is what got me inyo GOT/ASOIAF. So far its the only one of George's Books I have almost fully read, (I plan to read ASOIAF the second I get a chance as I do own the books.) The fact I keep coming back to this fake history book proves how good it is imo. (Plus Danny is my favorite character both in the show and the few chapters I have read from her book counterpart so I do have a thing for Targeryansl characters, which HOTD definitely helped solidify.) lol. When I watch shows lole HOTD and then come back to Fire and Blood, yes there are some changes, (some very good changes too lole Viserys and Alicent, and Helena's characters imo,) but I can see how people like Rhaenyra and Alicent would be vilanized through history, and how oarts of their show characters would be dropped either due to bias or to amplify their villainy. At the end of the day, Aegon II is the only one ever given the title and he shows up as the main monarch in history because of the world Westeros is and how they don't want to fully acknowledge that Rhaenyra was crowned and also ruled at the time because it would go against their sexist beliefs. (The Maesters are a male only organization after all.)
Also can I just say that the Daenerys in this book that dies of the SHIVERS, was actually invented for this book. George has previously done some history via World of Ice and Fire for the whole Targeryan reign, but this Daenerys didn't exist until Fire and Blood, which as we know was written to help tie the gap between Dance and Winds. So yes George invented another Daenerys (which actually makes this the first Daenerys as opposed to the other one mentioned in ADWD which became the second Daenerys because George invented this one,) who dies of THE SHIVERS aka a terrible cold. Bookborn, I feel like George is foreshadowing Danny is going to die in TWOW or at the very least die to The Others in the future and as a Danny fan I am on edge. 👀
I think rhaenys is alive, in love with a dornish person, knows that aegon is a glamoured woman, and is threatening to reveal this in order to ensure peace for Dorne. There's a lot of hints that the first Aegon was actually a woman. I also think Rhaenys the Conqueror is Quaithe. Check out the novella titles in "Spell of the Witch World".
Quentyn is dead for sure! I love your review of the book, wow, and I agree with pretty much everything. Thank you for this video! If you decide to cover parts in more detail, I think I would like to hear from you about the Dance and its main characters.
Yes! I was waiting for this. I loooove how Fire & Blood is written. I was surprised at how quickly I devoured it and at how I keep going back to it to read individual parts of it again.
@@Bookborn and about heroic moment of Rickard Thorne, this was like "kevan lannister thing" happened again. I choose to stand a very minor character in this book and after several paragraph George took him away. Damn you, George... 🥲
I love that just by the virtue of being dragonriders, Targaryen women have so much more freedoom, sway and presence. Dragons being the first in the feminist movement of Westeros! This is something GRRM definitely has thought about when writing, considering that when dragons are gone, Targaryen women are much more sidelined, especially if they are stubborn and rebellious. I also think Maegor killed himself because he saw that his cause was hopeless, as he could not have children and the remaining Targaryens rode against him. If he had killed them he would have ended Targaryen rule, and I think that was the trap that finally got to him. Its not that he suddenly became good, it is that he became way too fucking depressed over being cursed and horrible and nothing going his way, and him not wanting to wipe out their own dynasty. ALSO OFC YOUR OPINIONS ON RHAENA, Alysanne and Jaehaerys sister, and how she has some of the best moments in the entire book.
First of all, Rhaena supremacy. Thats all. Second I never even connected the dragons to freedom for the Targaryen women and its suuuuch and excellent point, I have to think on it more. Especially extrapolating to Dany and the main series
@@Bookborn I am glad I brought up an interesting point! Glad you enjoyed the book, its my favorite ASOIAF book as a historian haha. Like when you are flying a telekinetic nuke you are kind of a bigger, more important chess piece in every situation than almost every non-dragonrider. It also gives them complete freedom of movement, which is really useful if someone tells them what to do. They can always fly away.
That’s so true about the Targaryen women and their dragons. It's fascinating how this dynamic is explored in the main ASOIAF series through Daenerys. Nobody can truly tell her what to do because she wields the power. Interestingly, the dragons once symbolized oppression in Essos, but now they are associated with freedom by the oppressed. Also, there seems to be a correlation between the hatching of dragons and the fertility of Targaryen women, with Rhaenyra being one example. This might explain why Dany was pregnant before she hatched her dragons, as well as why it was the men who died trying to hatch them.
So heres an interesting theory i found online. So in F&B Hugh Hammer talks about a prophecy regarding a hammer bringing down a dragon (i cant remember the whole thing) and the theory is that the prophecy is actually referring to Robert Baratheon
Some people consider it to be too "dry", but I love Fire and Blood. I dunno, maybe it's the history major in me 😂
The multiple sources and unreliable historians is what makes it great for me, haven't read a book thats written like an in-universe history book before.
"Dry." That's an interesting description for F&B
I’m not a history buff in any way and yet here I am RIVETED by fake history it’s so unserious 🤣
I agree, you also get more and more out of it after each read
To be fair, people like it wet.
Daemon jumping from his dragon to Aemond’s over the Gods Eye is the most metal thing I’ve read in fantasy.
Queen Alyssane is probably the best written character in the book for me. One of her last scenes where she rides her dragon for the last time and comes down crying because she knows it’s the last time is genuinely heartbreaking
SHES SO GOOD!!! Everything about her life is so well done
I rarely get emotional, I did so twice while reading F&B, and the first was when I was finishing the last of Alysanne, that pictire of her older really got me 😢
That period of the book is the one Martin wrote more recently and I think it shows. The other characters who can compete with Queen Alyssane for best writing are also around the same stretch of the story: her mother (Queen Alyssa), her aunt (Queen Rhaena) and her brother/husband (King Jaehaerys).
It makes me think of my dad - the day he needs to stop riding motorcycles is going to be very hard for him, and us.
Despite it being written as a history book there’s so many great characters and complete stories in here
Yes! Complete arcs! man knows how to write a story and characters
Jahaerys |, alysanne, addam, aegon 2nd, daemon.
My ultimate top 5 characters.
"Come no closer," warned Ser Gyles Morrigen. "Any man who lays a hand upon our king and queen shall die today." Lord Rogar was dismayed. "Sheath your steel and move aside," he commanded. "Have you forgotten? I am the King's Hand." "Aye," old Sour Sam answered. "but we're the Kingsguard, not the Hand's guard, and it's the lad who sits the chair, not you." My favorite passage in the whole book kinda.
If we're sharing passages :)
"...Gwayne Hightower, second in command of the gold cloaks, rushed to the stables, intending to sound the warning; he was seized, disarmed, and dragged before his commander, Luthor Largent. When Hightower denounced him as a turncloak, Ser Luthor laughed. ”Daemon gave us these cloaks,” he said, “and they’re gold no matter how you turn them.” Then he drove his sword through Ser Gwayne’s belly...."
I LOVED THIS PART SOOOO MUCH
@@TZD11111 Hope they do this one justice in HOTD
That part always makes me smile cuz it's soooo good
@@VinnieMF if my memory serves me well, i'm pretty sure Gwayne and Criston are on the way to Harrenhal the last time we saw them in the s2, if Rhaenyra and Daemon attack KL in s3, i don't see any chance we would watch Gwayne Hightower book version's death...
The end part about Quentyn lol. Talk about a chef's kiss 🤣
😁
@@Bookborn 'oh'
Bookborn's officially on Preston's hit list.
@@VinnieMF only getting him back for ruining my life with time travel revelations (affectionate)
@@Bookborn Your reaction in that live when he said it was so funny but I can relate. Confirmed time travel in asoiaf was also traumatic to me back in 2016 😂
Your "optmism"( not really optmism, but a just a positive realness about everything) is such a breath of fresh air, because YES i love fire and blood, and if george wants to publish the part 2 instead of main asoiaf, i will still love it and I will BUY IT
You will hear NO complaints from me, I'll be seated and ready to binge
@@Bookborn Same. Whatever George releases, I'm reading it and not complaining about what he *hasn't* released yet!
@@Bookborn i dont think George would release either F&B 2 or Dunk and Egg 2 before TWOW as those 2 would spoil some things meant to be revealed in TWOW
@@ihuh1000 I agree! and basically came to the comments to say the same thing. I want Blood & Fire BAD, but I think some of the reveals about summerhall & things will be best in Winds, from Bloodraven & Bran, with more context later from B&F, then the later D&E books.
I too found King Jaehaerys's reign to be my favorite part of the book. It had so much more depth than the Dance itself because it wasn't just about a struggle for power:
1. King Jaehaerys was literally a nerd, he got excited about building roads, connecting towns, and working so hard to find the right person for the job (i.e. the Lord of Air).
2. He knew early on that he needed to be physically strong in order for people to accept him as a ruler. So he trained with the Kingsguard in Dragonestone as a teenager.
3. More than the king himself, the story did such a beautiful job at portraying what a real marriage looks like in comparison to a hot messy romance (i.e. Rhaenyra/Daemon)
4. It also brought to the forefront how children could change a marriage. Queen Alyssane was fully in love with Jaehaerys until he started making decisions about their kids that she didn't agree with: pushing Daella to be married which led to her early death; not making Daenaerys the heir even though she was older, etc. etc.
5. Umm, also Saera. There's so much to unpack there. A middle child who felt less loved by her parents. Brought so much chaos to the royal family that the king had to literally trial by combat someone half his age. Pretending he had fully disowned her but then would mistake Alicent for her when he was nearing death. Also, she's still alive? We need a full accounting of her story.
Stannis dragging Rhaenyra as an usurping traitor is so funny when you read Fire and Blood and see how many parallels they have 😅
Stannis never tried to put a bastard on the throne
@@jimboslice6367 Mmm well he certainly wants to raise Jon Snow to Lord of Winterfell to be sure, Stannis isn't a stranger to working with bastards. But I didn't say they were the same character, just have a lot of parallels.
@@jimboslice6367 I have to mention the defamation of Shireen being Patchface's daughter with Selyse lmao
@@VinnieMF what crackpot drunk theory is that
@@jimboslice6367 It's not a theory, it's Littlefinger's/Cersei's defamation of Stannis in Clash. It cracks me up every time 😂
For Fire and Blood II - Martin actually said in a blog post on September 9th he had worked on it a bit this year so I think he intends to release it after Winds but before A Dream of Spring
So in 5-10 years from now?
Ooohhhh 👀 lets all manifest this please 🙏✨🔮
@@Bookborn not only that but he also said he would do F&B2 after winds so it was the plan.
I didn't hear about that. I'm actually a bit sad because I wanted F&B 2 to have a section on the events of ASOIAF, so we can see how biased and off the Citadel's accounts of the story we've read are.
He also mentioned that the current name for that second part is Blood & Fire
Another interesting thing about the Baratheon-Targaryen connection, is that Robert’s (and Stannis and Renly’s) grandmother was a Targaryen. One of the reasons he was chosen to become king out of the main rebels who overthrew the mad king, was because they felt him being partially Targaryen would make him look more legitimate to Westeros.
Also, would love a video on how you felt about the Greens and the Blacks, both really compelling sides with lots of interesting characters. For me the Greens are one of the most interesting families in all of George’s ASOIAF world
It kind of leans to the history of kinslayers being cursed too, from the moment the hammer killed Rhaegar, Robert lived the most miserable life for being a king.
@@GreyMagee74 Could be, although I don't think Martin intended it that way. It's only his second-cousin (or however it's called in english), and they probably never viewed each other as family.
@Fenix-lr6ez maybe, maybe not. It's just one of those amazing wrinkles in the universe.
And with their relations, we won't know until George says so, or there is some spinoff story about the Rebellion where we get their POVs and get that glimpse into their mind about each other. (we definitely won't be getting this sadly😂).
I would think they did call each other cousin to a point because they grew up together till Robert went to The Vale since Steffon was Aerys' other best friend and was a part of his Small Council till he died.
That's just my opinion based on the facts we know from the stated Canon i could be completely wrong.
@@GreyMagee74 oh I didn't consider Steffon being in Aerys' council, true. Although wasn't Rhaegar like 8 years older than Ned and Robert? If so, Rhaegar would double Robert's age when they were together, so dunno if they had any relations.
But as you say, we'll never know for sure unless George decides to dig deeper into it. Cheers!
Did I miss that their grandmother was a Targaryen in the main series?? Probably since I didn't think much about history lol. I was on team Black...I know there was a lot of reason not to be buuutttt still lmao
So, the thing with Valyria
The main accepted theory is that Dragons aren't natural, the Valyrians used magic to combine Fire Wyrms with Wyverns and birth the dragons.
These Fire Wyrms are what are thought to have been inside the Princess
As for what hurt Balerion, we have no idea, it's possible that somehow another dragon survived and fought him
Creepy. love it.
Fire Wyrms are supposed to be able to reach colossal sizes. Likely it was a wyrm that attacked balerion.
@@Bookborn i also really like the theory that balerion didn't just die of old age, but that his severe injury played a major part in his demise, which is why dragons could possibly get even older than he was at the end of his life.
I think this is one of those passages where Martin shows his admiration for Lovecraft and his fascination with eldritch horrors. He also does it in the main series, in everything relating to Euron Greyjoy and the Drowned God of the Ironborn, or even with the Squishers of the legends of Crackclaw Point.
@@K4neki_CNTP I always assumed that Balerion had some worms in it and they slowly killed him. I realize now on reflection that I have no evidence for this.
GRRM said that the version of Viserys I in House of the Dragon is better than the version he wrote in the book. Honestly so much is gained in adaptation sometimes and Viserys I in the show is one of the best characters in the ASOIAF universe and one of best performances as well. In the book you just know of him, but in the show you follow his entire reign and see the person who the maesters considered uninteresting. You might wanna check out the show.
Paddy diserves a wall full of awards for that performance, so good!
@@cosmopeaches2604 him being snubbed for the Emmy’s was unforgivable.
Just wanna add my support to this comment, House of the Dragon is an amazing detailed adaptation of Fire and Blood, and expands on the text and has some unexpected decisions that I found really thrilling as a F&B enjoyer. Even if you have no desire to watch Game of Thrones, I would say check out HotD!
The bar wasn’t high to be fair. George wrote him as dumb and fat. The show had to do more and hit it out the park.
@@TheKillaShow It’s still impressive considering that most adaptations tend to lose complexity, not gain them. If they hadn’t put the effort Viserys could have been a fat fool and no one would have cared because no one expected more.
Any time I hear someone call this series nihilistic, it makes me think either a.) they don’t understand nihilism, or b.) they haven’t actually read the series. I love that, as someone with a wide booktube audience, you continue to highlight George’s romanticism. I think ASOIAF is some of the most effective fantasy hopecore since LOTR.
George: “One of the great things that Tolkien says in Lord of The Rings is “despair is the ultimate crime”. That’s the ultimate failing of Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, that he despairs of ever being able to defeat Sauron. We should not despair. We should not go gentle into that good night. So winter is coming, but light the torches, drink the wine and gather around the fire, we can still defy it!”
That George quote is incredible and I am saving it for future reference. THANK YOU
While I think Martin wrote a very compelling story in ASOIAF, I still think his work is very cynical and bleak though.
I mean, can you name even one heroic character who is virtuous and actually smart? Because the rest of these good people are written to be dumb and naive who got killed easily.
@@nont18411 Brienne is written to be the epitome of romantic heroism - "No chance, and no choice" is not her being "dumb and naive", it's understanding that evil prevails only if good people who can do something about it refuse to stand up. Even if, yes, sometimes they lose their lives doing so. "Doing good is not always easy but that's when it's the most important to do it" is basically a core tenet of the series (Maester Aemon says something very similar but about duty)
@@nont18411 Easy. Davos. No question.
"If Joffrey should die...what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly.
(ASOS, Davos V)
This quote works on multiple levels, to Davos, whether it’s a truly innocent lad like Edric, or that little shit Joff, the answer remains, still, everything. He volunteers the information that he had Edric smuggled away, kneels, offers up his life to his king, and stands by his beliefs. Davos isn’t even concerned solely for his own moral compass, but that of the king he believes to be the one should rightfully sit the throne, doing his best to save that in his journey too.
Previous reply already named Brienne, and I’d agree, people in-universe only consider her stupid/naive because she’s hulking and honourable, typical stereotype applied to other characters too even when untrue.
GRRM’s best heroes come from this ilk, that of outcasts. Jon the bastard, Brienne the ugly maiden, Davos the upstarted smuggler. Just because some die or make mistakes in the process, doesn’t mean they’re unheroic. The idea is not to fall prey to the cynicism of those perpetuating cycles of the game, no matter how dire the circumstances.
@@Bookborn My pleasure! Here’s another cut from the same cloth, in relation to the discussion being had with @nont18411 here:
GRRM: “My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.”
Shooting the THANK YOU back at ya! Very grateful for this feeding of ASOIAF content from a fresh perspective.
This was quite the journey to see you from not being so sure about asoif to getting so into it.
ASOIAF is highly addictive. It is known.
Rhaenas arc with androw Farman had my jaw on the floor. That paired with the Elissa Farman arc, I could spend a whole book on Rhaena’s life easily
The World of Ice and Fire is a lot like Fire and Blood, but with incredible art. There is some overlapping material with the Targaryens, but a ton of new stuff with other houses and the rest of the world.
I prefer TWOIAF, so much creativity and Epicness (also Basilisks are GOATed)
Yeah I like TWOIAF better personnaly for the variety. I'm not that much of a fan of the Targs (except Blackfyre rebellions era but that's not in F&B)
There is so much in TWOIAF it is really incredible.
The world of Ice and Fire is more of an encyclopedia. But the first 100 or so pages cover Fire and Blood part 1 and 2. But it’s really brief and he doesn’t go into as much detail. So for instance, Fire and Blood part 1 is covered in about 60/70 pages. To give you an example of how brief it is. But I’d suggest reading it just so you’d get a summary of Fire and Blood part 2. Even though it’s not in detail. It lets you know the main events. And the Blackfyres come to play in that portion of the story and it’s really good imo. It makes me want Fire and Blood 2 even more lol. But at least you have an idea of the story. The rest of the book reads sort of like a textbook tbh and I never got through the entire thing.
But the first section, I recommend because it tells you what happens after Fire and Blood Part 1 ends.
its honestly crazy to me that bookborn went from super not-a-fan of whatever she heard of martin & asoiaf to like being a super fan of it when she actually sat down and read it.
I kept track of merphy napiers readthrough and she dropped it like mid way of clash of kings or after it, which disappointed me, so I was expecting bookborn to have a similar experience given both merphy and bookborn seem to have similar tastes and limits on what they can handle. I was so (happily) surprised when she finished all 5 books, and then A REREAD of AGOT followed by F&B. like good lord!!!
Idk why i always somehow disliked merphy i felt as she always comes off pretentious so every time she shows up on my fyp i just roll my eyes and skip. Didnt know she dropped asoiaf, seems she always drops the good ones
@@ihuh1000 Merphy Napier didn't drop it cause she wasn't liking the writing, she dropped it cause the scenes of violence, war and trauma (specially to children and mothers) were way too realistic, visceral and triggering for her especially since she was in the process of adoption at the time...
I personally like the place George ended it, its right at the start of the Targaryens transition from dragon lords, to just lords. Which i believe will tie in nicely to the themes of Fire and blood II.
You can really tell which characters in F&B George loved the most because they get their own little coda and retrospective when they die. Like Rhaena Targaryen, who’s my personal favorite character in the book. George jumps forward in time just to detail her life up until her death in Harrenhall. His sendoff for her made me tear up.
Rhaena is so amazing and I’m glad I’m seeing so much love for her in this comment section
I have never clicked on a video so fast!
I've been waiting for this!!!!!!!!
I think one of Georges most interesting takes on loyalty within ASOAIF would have to be Theon and his loyalty to his Greyjoy family,
committing horrific warcrimes against his “adoptive” family to prove himself to his father and their brutal culture, even if it means destroying the only people who ever showed him any sort of love or acceptance
I have never really been into reading, but i began reading this after i watched House of the Dragon because i wanted to know how that story would unfold. And it has really started my reading journey, i love to read now. I also just finished A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms last week and now i'm reading the Hobbit and have The Lord of the Rings to look forward to afterwards. But looking back, i don't know what i was thinking starting a book with 700 pages, when i hadn't read anything in a long time. But i loved it lmao
Good for you. Reading is a fun thing to do. Read what you love. Abandon books which you dont enjoy.
George confirmed Haleana kills herself in a recent blog post titled ‘beware the butterflies’. He has since deleted it but you can still find it on the internet
He can only confirm that she died (maybe killed herself, maybe murdered) in the book. He's not writing on the show, so he doesn't know for sure. They're still writing season 3 and haven't written 4 yet.
@@carastone3473 he confirmed in the post she killed herself in the book and the reasons why. Read the blog post
Is this the same infamous deleted blog post that complained about the show
@@carastone3473he did say he saw the plot breakdown for s3 and she still kills herself. If they change that, it'll probably be in response to his blog.
@@Bookborn yes, its an interesting read and now that you’ve read Fire and Blood it won’t spoil anything for you
You should read The World of Ice and Fire.
This, absolutely!
Such an insane thing this book.
I have it. It's an interesting read. I LOVE all the lore!
It's an official book by Martin? I've never heard of it!
@@younoushamza wait for real??
It's like *the* book for lore and art there is for the series. And also generally speaking probably the most incredible book that fits these properties!
And yes, written by George himself. Fire and Blood is even taken from one portion of World of Westeros - expanded on of course.
He covers the entire history of the entire world in there, so not only Westeros and not only during the Targaryen Reign. Insane stuff, so much fun and so imaginative!
@@rastrich I swear I didn't know, I watch and read all sorts of things ASOIAF related, but never heard of this one somehow! Thank youu!
RE: Maegor's death- I like the theory that when Maegor ordered everyone who built the Red Keep executed to keep his secrets, one of them escaped through the secret tunnels they built and then used the secret passages later to sneak up and get revenge. It's poetic!
The scene that always stands out to me is the Maiden's Day Ball for Aegon III. It's such a classic fairy tale trope, when it is filtered through the historic lens it seems doubly ironic. And when the TWINS CHARGE IN ON HORSEBACK... stunning.
I love the women in Fire&Blood. My absolute favorite is Rhaena Targaryen, first rider of Dreamfyre, granddaughter of Aegon the Conqueror, and eldest sibling to Jaehaerys and Alysanne. She had been through so much, from losing her husband, and being forced to marry Maegor. She's also amazing for queer representation, I thought George did a great job with that in this novel. Her relationship with Elissa Farman and the possible explanation for how Daenerys got her dragon eggs is really cool. I also love her reign over Harrenhal and Dragonstone, and the fact that at the end of the day she just wanted peace for her and her daughters. I could write novels about how underrated I feel she is 😢 Like come on, Aegon the Conqueror CRIED when he held her for the first time!!! She's the GOAT!!! (I do also love your picks, Alysanne is an amazing woman)
She was one of my top 3 for sure, LOVED HER.
i know you haven’t watched the shows, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on hotd. im one of the few people who love both f&b and hotd, i think they’re really good companion pieces to one another and ive loved most of the changes and additions to the source material. it’s definitely a transformative adaptational approach that works as an interpretation of the book’s unreliable narrative. it also seems more in line with the themes and fantasy elements of asoiaf than what game of thrones was
I think she would find it really interesting, especially bc she enjoys the bits about motherhood so much.
I also just finished Fire & Blood for the first time and couldn’t agree more about the level of characterization and narrative tension that was packed into a “history” book. It also warms my heart and blows me away that this is what George does for fun when he’s stressed about Winds of Winter. Can’t wait for Blood & Fire.
Edit; World of Ice and Fire is also great! Definitely much more of an encyclopedia but the details it goes into in regard to the world outside of Westeros is really interesting.
It’s been so fun to see you go from not being sure about getting into this series to now loving this history book! I also love Fire and Blood; I named my cat Rhaena after Queen Rhaena. I would love to see you do a video that is a deeper dive into some of the theories and such that came out of this book. Like who killed Maegor, are the eggs that Elissa Farman stole Danny’s eggs (yes obviously!!!), or just some of the weird magical stuff going on with the Targs and their dragon bonds. Also: you did much better with these names than you have yourself credit for!
Oh I LOOOVED the Elissa Farman detail! I was like .... DANYS EGGS! so obviously those are it, right??
"He knew how to do lots of plot, and when to inject quotes and conversation when it really benefitted the story." To me, this is easily the greatest strength of F&B. George uses dialogue sparingly, but he uses it to inject humanity and characterization, to dramatize the important and epic moments, and to drop some of the funniest beats in the story. This book was always going to be a tightrope walk between info-dumping and narrative storytelling and imo he nailed it.
I also love how often George finds room for something really silly and purely comedic in the book. Shout out to the priest-king Lodos, who called on krakens to defeat Aegon, and then walked into the sea to "take counsel" with the Drowned God when they didn't appear.
Yep, GRRM is a masterful writer. This is what makes us readers come back again and again, even when we're so frustrated with him. Don't know why, but I find it very validating to hear how much you love ASOIAF.
World of Ice and Fire is a beautiful art book and most certainly worth a place on your bookshelf or coffee table. It will be a quick read for you, but that gives more time to savor the art that is all George approved.
this
Sounds like the rousing consensus is to buy it and read it. Done ✅
@@Bookborn I'd always recommend reading the preview before buying it. For TWOI&F there's a good chunk on Google Books available - though it lacks the illustrations.
@@Bookborn it wasnt written by george but by two of his few confidants that know the plot of asoiaf so its written with george his blessings and notes plus its written similary to the style of fire and blood all thought less detailed and more general but gives a lot of information not found in the books especially worldbuilding it more like " a measter wrote an encyclopedia"
It's an interesting read if you wanna know more about the world, and it has basically an abbreviated version of F&B part 2, but it does read much more like The Silmarillion than F&B does, it doesn't have as much narrative as you described, but still a fun read though.
I KNEW IT, gosh we are just on the EXACT same wavelength with ASoIaF takes, you literally NEVER miss
Also, note that Robert Baratheon's grandmother is Rhaelle Targaryen -- it is what the Maesters use as justification for his claiming the throne after his conquest (despite the conquest alone being pretty convincing) (also, apologies if you referenced this -- have this on while working so not processing all words).
was that in the main series and I missed it on the first read? so interesting
@@Bookborn it's 2 very small references. Early in Clash when Catelyn meets with Renly he mentions vaguely the blood ties between them, and then near the end in Feast Aemon mentions Stannis having dragon's blood through Egg's daughter, Rhaelle.
@@cdgodin That's for sure something I'll be looking for on the reread
@@Bookborn its also mentioned in ASOS by Olenna. She says something along the lines of Renly being queer because of his targaryen blood
As for the 'what's happening in Valyria?' Question, the answer is probably that George Mystery-Boxed it, so he doesn't even know. It's most likely a magical-Armageddon/chernobyl or a nuclear fallout
That was sort of my impression like...something weird is happening but it may not necessarily be defined
I'm a big fan of the theory David Lightbringer posits - that the faceless men liberating the slaves interrupted ritual sacrifices that kept the fourteen flames dormant. Love the idea of their abuse of human lives and pure hubris was ultimately their downfall. And additionally, that one of the Dragonlords, possibly Aenor, put it all in motion. Aka The Doom was an Inside Job. I'm sure you're right that George himself has no clear answer, but it's fun to think about!
He has mentioned that he probably won't explain stuff like Sothoryos, Asshai and most of those mysterious places because he only created those areas as the limits of the known world so that there is an explanation of why people don't go there and explore more but he doesn't want readers to lose focus on the main plot which is what matters to him.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle David didn't come up with that theory
It's all very Atlantis and Numenor but probably leaning closer to Atlantis so it's more mysterious and we'll never know.
The World of Ice and Fire is definitely worth a read. It is more of an encyclopedia/coffee table book (not a secret masterpiece like F&B), but it's full of lore details that are not anywhere else. A lot of it is written by George, but some is also written/summarized by his assistants Elio and Linda. The whole middle of the book is the history of the Targaryen kings. George wrote so much for this section that they couldn't fit it in the coffee table book, so what got published is a fairly dry summary (he expanded on what he wrote to make F&B volume 1... and hopefully volume 2) Much of the book is about pre-Targaryen Westerosi history and about far off cultures, and reads more like myth because the maesters don't have good historical sources. A lot of esoteric fan theories have their basis in the mythical lore nuggets in TWoiaF
You should totally read The World of Ice & Fire. First off, it has beautiful illustrations, it’s such an enjoyable experience. It also covers so much of the world you’ve wondered about! The Dawn Age and the Long Night. Asshai. Summerhall and Mad King Aerys’ reign. Worth it!
To hopefully put your mind at ease, George has said in the past his plan is to finish Winds, and then write more Dunk and Egg, write Blood and Fire (F&B 2), and then Dream of Spring
And then dream of spring as "dreaming of spring" xD
ooohhh so it's MORE likely than spring. That's sort of funny to me for some reason, but I aint complaining
He will need to live for another 70 years then....
He is 78 years old so realistically it's highly unlikely he will manage to release all that content.
@@Bookborn to be honest F&B2 is probably more likely than TWOW
Who is you favorite dragon. Mine is either caraxes or sunfyre, based on how much both were able to accomplish.
Sunfyre!! Soft spot for Balerion tho
@@BookbornSunfyre is such a loyal boy. He and Aegon II probably had the strongest bond of all the dragonriders
Loved your video!! Would love to know your thoughts on Saera (daughter of Alysanne and Jaehaerys), Queen Alicent and Nettles. Also were you Team Green or Black during the Dance?
Saera was WILD lmao but I also felt sooo much for Alysanne at the end of her life when she was trying to reconcile with Saera and Jaehaerys wasn't willing to. Just...idk so realistic, so sad. Queen Alicent is the worst ☠ Ok, that's unfair, but I can only think of her being like "OH SO YOU JUST WANT REVENGE???" to Rh*** (whatever I don't feel like looking up how to spell her name lmao) and it's like MS ALICENT look at your life look at your choices!!
So anyways I was team black lmao
@@Bookborn Thx for replying!!
Jahaerys pardoning rogar baratheon is one of the hardest paragraphs i have ever read. And then he just casually show him what real power is. His dragon vermithor.
He just command so much presence in that paragraphs that the pages become short to contain it. Like i literally remember it reading it 10+ times again and again.
Thank you for this video your ASOIAF reviews are my comfort videos as I work !
Fire and blood might be my favorite book in the asoiaf world. Rhaena Targaryen (sister to jahaerys and alasayne) is my favorite character. She went through so much
I looooove Rhaena
Love Rhaena as well. She's a pretty bad person (especially to her husband and daughter) but so compelling. Her threatening Lord Baratheon to not take any other wife after Alyssa was peak Rhaena.
She's also one of my characters, she's a bit of an asshole but that's what makes her very interesting in the drama, which is why I also have Rhaenyra as one of my favorite characters
Balerion was injured trying to protect Aerea from the creatures that still dwell in Old Valyria.
It's heartwarming as both a longtime viewer of the channel and a fan of ASOIAF to see you fall for this series. Your perspective helped me rethink how I viewed some characters and reconsider a lot of the unhinged crazy speculation that so much of the fandom historically has done.
Honestly, I was on side of the people when they stormed the Dragonpit! People will never be free for as long as dragons live. Shepherd is my boy!
Ok you have a point but also...DRAGONS!!!
Have you seen that YT video "the two types of fantasy"? It's like
Type 1: "Aw my gad there used to be majestic dragons painting the sky with their wings. One day they'll return and grace us with their beauty."
Type 2: "Oh my god the dragons are coming to burn our town, animals and us as well, run!!"
ASOIAF is type 1 and F&B is type 2 😂
The problem isn’t the dragons it’s the people controlling them.
@@Frey_Gray i think it's more that that type of power corrupts and sets whoever rides a a dragon be orders of magnitude more power than everyone else. the reality of that world is that they bring destruction and oppression. the only issue is that the trags and their dragons were the only real institution that could contain the faith. which had its own horrors.
@@therecalcitrantseditionist3613 I agree, people shouldn’t be allowed to control forces as strong as dragons
I'd love to know your thoughts on Rhaena (daughter of Aenys I), I loved reading about her life and the journey she goes through. I love when she confronts Rogar, too: "Hear this, my lord. Do not think to wed again. Take care of the whelps my mother gave you, my half-brother and half-sister. See that they want for nothing. Do that, and I will let you be. If I should hear even a whisper of your taking some other poor maid to wife, I will make another Harrenhal of Storm's End, with you and her inside it."
She is one of my top 3 characters. love her, love her story
This is one of my FAVOURITE passages. What a scene!! Iconic
@@Bookborn I was hoping to ask you about Rhaena if nobody had already, but she's clearly very popular! I adored her as well especially as some wonderful queer representation, her connection to Dreamfyre is a big part of why I found the Dragonpit scene so gut-wrenching.
I absolutely agree with you on Fire and Blood in general. it's a somewhat divisive book, but I really really enjoyed it and you verbalised why I think I found it so good really well. When I finished it, I found myself thinking I would be just as happy with a sequel to it coming out as I would with TWOW - I'm not sure how true that is, but I loved the book. I do sort of agree with you on the ending, though - while the end of the Regency works okay as a final chapter, ending with Morning's death would've been very thematically appropriate. I suppose that going into Aegon III's reign would sort of necessitate introducing his and Viserys' children without any real character payoff for them, which might have been an influence on the decision.
I would love to hear you doing a full breakdown of the book, your opinions are so interesting and well explained. I completely understand if you don't want to spend that long doing that though, lol. I an interested in what you thought of Jaeherys overall? I honestly hated him by the end, and I've seen several other fans feel the same - I really love how throughout the series he's built up as the incredible conciliator, the best king ever, but then when George reveals his actual life he was so awful to his family (especially Saera!) that I just. eugh.
A few other people have also asked, but additionally, do you have any thoughts or speculation about what convinced Aegon to abandon Dorne? I saw a theory that Rhaenys was still alive in the Hellholt dungeons and would be tortured if the invasion continued, with the letter possibly even written in her blood, which seemed awfully chilling and just like something George would write. On that note, actually, what did you think of Rhaenys and Visenya? Do you know the theory that Aegon I was infertile? How do you feel about it?
Loved the video and all of your ASOIAF content, looking forward to more whenever you're able to release it!!
She is my favorite in the entire book... her last days alone, sad in Harrenhal befriended by a crippled man named Maegor who was kind to her all just so bittersweet... Rhaena is so precious to me.
His recent blog post was about how he's currently writing both Winds and Blood & Fire right now, and the latter comes much easier to write for him so it's quite likely that we will get the second volume after Winds (he just needs one really good year for writing and I think Winds will come out). Some of the material that will be in Blood & Fire is already published in The Wolrd of Ice and Fire coffee table book so it's safe to assume he won't take forever to write it.
I agree.
I espescially agree with the "one good year for winds", i also see it like that.
I love Fire & Blood ! Didn’t expect it to be as good as it is. Alyssane is one of my favorite characters ever. ❤
"Fire &Blood" is a long book, but compared to the books in the main series, it is very easy to read. Plus, I love reading history books, so that one was the perfect book for me. I watched "House of the Dragon" before reading "Fire&Blood", but when I re-watched season 1, I was a little bit emotional seeing "jaehaerys I targaryen",because I now know the story of his life. Also, I might be one of my favorite targaryens.
And she's back!
I loved Fire and Blood.
Having a few false narrative attempting to create the history of the targ lineage.
With mushrooms nonsense it's great
RE: How George RR Martin writes such great women characters-
--George Stromboulopoulos: "Another thing that's interesting about your books...I noticed that you really write women well, and really strong. How do you do that? Where does that come from?
--George RR Martin: "You know... I've always considered women to be people."
“Why did you write gay characters in your story?”
GRRM: “Because there are gay people in real life so I think I should include ones in my story too.”
I'd be really interested to hear you and Preston have another convo now that you've read Fire & Blood. Feel like you two had a great back and forth last time!
Ok. Your opinion on the motherhood and the irreconcilable differences between the interests of Rhaenyra and the vilified Alicent are a must!!! I believe this can give you some meat for your catelyn defense video too!
SOoooo many thoughts, although I'll admit that Alicent does see pretty villainous ☠ Although perhaps there is a argument to be made how history is written...
@@BookbornThis is something I really like about how the show adapted it (which I'm aware you have no interest in watching! No worries), making them both more nuanced and even sympathetic. People hated this but it makes sense to me. Who wrote F&B? Maesters. Idk about y'all but the citadel always reads as misogynistic to me. It would make sense that any woman in power that isn't chaste or submissive would be cast in an evil light.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle Alyssane?
@@tobydorman3998 ??? Are you implying she doesn't fit in this? It's a more passive form of misogyny but it's there. The passage of her speaking to the archmaesters about letting women in comes to mind. Also, she married the king and bore him like eleven children, she did exactly what a queen is "supposed" to do in their eyes. It doesn't have to be blatantly malicious to be biased against her having power.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle My friend Kyle actually talked to me about her character in particular and said the show made some good choices to help her feel more nuanced and complicated and I think that's a cool choice. I probably have to reread to really sink in to how I feel about Aliciant...I was so on the side of Rhaenyra that I was a taaad blinded lol
Like you, I was shocked by how captivating the narratives were in this book. I had heard it was a boring history book only good for those who really wanted to know all the lore. I only read it because I didn't want to wait years for the next season of Hotd to find out what happens. To my pleasant surprise, this was a super fun and quick read. I actually loved the history book nature of the writing. It allowed him to cover a lot of interesting plot over many years with relatively few pages. But the thing that stood out the most was how he was able to give even the smallest side characters complete arcs and compelling stories. My favorites were Princess Aerea, Rhaena Targaryen, Rego Draz, and Cregan Stark.
Elissa Farman easily the most interesting character during Jaehaerys' reign. She stole the show for me with the whole "Travelling Court of Gossiping Lesbians" 😂
Literally one of my fav parts of the book
@@Bookborn the ending is so tragic and fucked up too, grrm is really messed up
I am currently reading fire & blood and I was not sure if I wanted to watch your video because of spoilers but I have seen the HotD Show so I thought even having some spoilers wouldn't be so bad, but there was no spoiler for me here 🤭 I always enjoy your videos on this series :) thanks for making them :)
When I read Fire & Blood, I thought Helaena took her own life too. Then I watched Hohse of the Dragon, and it made me question the "history" repeatedly. Fascinating to examine the changes between book and show and think about the agenda of the "historians".
I Loooooved the exploration of the agenda of the historians. and then thinking...what's the agenda of the person I'm reading? even if they are saying they are being objective?
my immense want for Fire and Blood II (or Blood and Fire as i think it’s actually called) stems from it finally giving us more on the Blackfyre rebellions and bridging the gap between the main series and the post-Dance/Regency of Aegon III. I’m just foaming at the mouth at what we’ll get about my favorite period of westerosi history just teeming with creative opportunities with characters like Aemon the Dragonknight, Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteelnand Bloodraven
It is speculated that the worms that came out of the girl were how the great empire of the dawn created dragons form wyverns and Fire worms. As well how Targaryen got the blood of the dragon.
George has confirmed he’s started writing pages of Blood and Fire (Fire and Blood p2) and if you want the spark notes version of it, that’s in the world of ice and fire!
21:34 One of the big theories is that one or a few of the builders - who Maegor killed to keep the secrets of the passages under the Red Keep - wasn't present during the killing and came back for revenge. It's my favorite theory.
Concerning the incest point at 22:37, westerosi nobles don't care about aunt-nephew, uncle-niece, or cousin marriages. It's not really considered incestuous by the nobles at that point. Tywin married his cousin, Stark uncles married their nieces, etc. That doctrine is more for sibling marriages. No one would bat an eye at FAegon or Jon marrying their aunt Dany even if they weren't Targaryens.
Uncle/Aunt + Nephew/Nice isn't that common I think. The realm did frown upon Maegor for taking Rhaena as his wife iirc - though his polygamy surely inflated the negative reaction.
@@VinnieMF There were a couple of uncle/niece marriages in the North, but I guess it's not enough conclusive evidence (it could also be an Old Gods thing)
I liked where it ended. Aegon III is my favourite king, and I like that George is taking his time in chronicling his reign. And idk why, but I found him kicking out the regents to be an absurdly satisfying and triumphant ending. Plus, this means we’ll get a few dragons in the next book :)
I love that you still enjoyed it even after talking to Preston 😂
As evidenced by my catelyn views, I’m not easily swayed against enjoying what I’m gonna enjoy 🤣🤣
@@Bookborn I am 100% with you! I love Fire and Blood 🐉
glad to hear you really liked it! Fire & Blood is my favorite ASOIAF-universe book, so I get kinda salty when Preston hates on it 😂
The World of Ice and Fire isn't exactly and Encyclopedia, it's more of a world book, fleshing out places and families within the world, and is again written "In universe" by a Maester.
I'd say you should read it over time, just to give yourself the best working knowledge of the world possible
Opposite of roasting you about packing character into smallest amount of words: you are spot on - my favorite part of re-reading Westoros books is finding one short sentence that COMPLETELY changes my view on what's happened before (e.g. in fire and blood, he calls the breaking of dorne from essos "maybe the most important event" on the continent.... what?! I've spent hours and hours contemplating what that single line could mean)
GRRM fundamentally wrote a mystery book - but basically every single character has a secret, and the world has many many more
Also on faegon/danny, a marriage between an aunt and a nephew would not really be considered as incest in this society.
GIVE ME ALL THE CONTENT OF ASOIF. I'M JUST HERE FOR IT!!
I couldn’t agree more about George’s writing. He has only become better and better.
Unfortunately I think the over critique is more a byproduct of the toxicity of rabid fandom than anything else.
🟢 His prose got better
🟢 His character work got better
🔴 His plot got unfocused
🔴 The timeline has become considerably more muddled to follow
🔴 Plot progression has crawled
🔴 Point of view bloat
🔴 Feast and Dance are unfinished
@@VinnieMF I just don't agree
Glad to see someone else praising this text! Historical narratives/monographs, if written with good prose and attention to pacing can be excellent reads. A good lesson for readers, novelists, and historians.
For characters you didn’t cover in the video I’m sure a lot of people would like to know what you thought of Elissa Farman. People like to theorize about where she went and what she did with the eggs.
Those eggs are for SURE Danys eggs right? there can't be a question?
@@Bookborn Yes, that's the most popular theory. Meaning Dreamfyre is the parent to Dany's 3 dragons
When I first started reading it, I was kind of like “what am I doing reading a fictional history book”. But once you get into it, the stories are so interesting and fun. I think I read the Dance of Dragons chapters in one sitting.
Now you will need to read "World of Ice and Fire" to see the rest, short version
Aerys II, the Mad King, has an amazing chapter in AWOIAF. It gives us an excellent backgound of Aerys and why he plunged into madness. GRRM makes even him believable and human, imo.
You should read "The World of Ice and Fire" too! It's the entire world history, not only the Targaryen dynasty!
I’m gonna be real we need a part 2 of this video where you go in depth and I need it now make it as long as you can
I know you said that you don't want to watch the show but I'd recommend you to watch at least season 1 of House of the Dragon just so you can see Viserys, even George said show Viserys was better than book Viserys. Also they have an explanantion for the reason why Aegon conquered Westeros (this was given by George)
As for Fire and Blood 2 is been written as well as Winds of Winder (George said it on his blog). He'll probably finish WOW first and a year o two after he'll release Fire and Blood 2 while hr works on A Dream of Spring
I’m so happy to hear you liked it. I think it’s tragically underrated
I think blood and cheese was so good. I understand the horror of it, but the psychological aspect was excellent writing. It was missing in HotD and that is my biggest gripe with that series. I actually read fire and blood first and then knight of the seven kingdoms. I liked both, but I read knight in like a day. It was something I needed to keep reading so much. I prefer knight over fire and blood currently.
I think George is just having a really tough time making winds the quality it needs to be. But when winds is done, dream of spring should be relatively easy to do as he will have written so much towards the ending. Winds is so hard because he needs to have a lot of Dream of spring in the back of his mind. So I would say its very possible that we get more tales of Dunk and Egg and fire and blood.
Adding to that, I strongly suspect a lot of characters are either going to be dead or in the same region by the end of winds, making the climax and conclusion of the series a little easier to tame! The struggle is getting all the pieces on the board, which I'm sure is a big hurdle to jump while writing winds. That, and from his blog posts it seems like the poor guy is not doing well mentally. Lots of friends of his are passing away, politics & world events are depressing, ect. With people hounding him for the book every time he says anything in public, I think I'd be losing motivation too. I hope things turn around for him.
Hello! I have two characters that I'd love to know your thoughts on that weren't mentioned in the vid.
First would have to be Queen Visenya. Visenya is easily one of my favorite Targaryens not just because of badass she is but how much impact she had on the course of Westerosi history in the Targaryen era. A warrior who played a huge role during the conquest, first rider of Vhagar (that we're aware of), original wielder of Dark Sister (that we're aware of), creator of the Kingsguard, said to dabble in poisons and sorcery, outlived both her siblings and was instrumental in seating Maegor on the Iron Throne.
The second character I'd love to hear you talk about is Septon Barth! The greatest hand of the king there ever was who had so much wisdom beyond his years. A common refrain among the fandom is that you can always bet on Barth. If conventional wisdom says something and Barth says something else, then 9 times outta 10 you should go with Barth. Aemon even mentions something to this effect when he's on the boat with Sam in Feast. He says something along the lines "Barth had the truth of it!" when referring to whether dragons have a defined Male and Female sex or not and this is still believed to be correct now. Of course he wrote so much over his life and much of it was burned by Baelor the Blessed (ironic considering Barth was a septon, but just not a total fanatic like Baelor).
Also in regards to The World of Ice and Fire. That book is more of an encyclopedia than Fire and Blood is but I still absolutely recommend it just for the beautiful illustrations alone but also because it was co-written by the same couple that co-wrote fire and blood. While it is more encyclopedia than F&B it is still written from the in-world perspective of a maester and has some narrative structure to it. But rather than talking about just the Targareyns its more of a broad focus on the whole world.
Thanks!!!
5:30 completely agree - perfect example is the prologue of clash of kings, in 20 pages maester cressen had become my new favourite character
When it comes to the Dragons, Sunfyre is a fan favorite. Aegon II's golden glory. GRRM somehow managed to weave a whole arc for a dragon amidst this sprawling narrative. You seriously need to dissect GRRM's writing style and make a video of it.
A line that struck me as particularly memorable is that the last thing written about Alicent is how she developed an “aversion to the color green.” That says so much with such few words! How futile all her efforts to further her family’s cause must’ve seemed to her by the end 😢
I lkve Fire and Blood because HOTD is what got me inyo GOT/ASOIAF. So far its the only one of George's Books I have almost fully read, (I plan to read ASOIAF the second I get a chance as I do own the books.)
The fact I keep coming back to this fake history book proves how good it is imo. (Plus Danny is my favorite character both in the show and the few chapters I have read from her book counterpart so I do have a thing for Targeryansl characters, which HOTD definitely helped solidify.) lol.
When I watch shows lole HOTD and then come back to Fire and Blood, yes there are some changes, (some very good changes too lole Viserys and Alicent, and Helena's characters imo,) but I can see how people like Rhaenyra and Alicent would be vilanized through history, and how oarts of their show characters would be dropped either due to bias or to amplify their villainy. At the end of the day, Aegon II is the only one ever given the title and he shows up as the main monarch in history because of the world Westeros is and how they don't want to fully acknowledge that Rhaenyra was crowned and also ruled at the time because it would go against their sexist beliefs. (The Maesters are a male only organization after all.)
Also can I just say that the Daenerys in this book that dies of the SHIVERS, was actually invented for this book. George has previously done some history via World of Ice and Fire for the whole Targeryan reign, but this Daenerys didn't exist until Fire and Blood, which as we know was written to help tie the gap between Dance and Winds. So yes George invented another Daenerys (which actually makes this the first Daenerys as opposed to the other one mentioned in ADWD which became the second Daenerys because George invented this one,) who dies of THE SHIVERS aka a terrible cold. Bookborn, I feel like George is foreshadowing Danny is going to die in TWOW or at the very least die to The Others in the future and as a Danny fan I am on edge. 👀
Yeah it's not like rhaenyra was a completely horrible ruller,
I love it. It feels like it's a culmination of everything GRRM accomplished in terms of world building.
I came from the show so i tried to read this first and it didn't work out. I then read the five main books and came back and LOVED this one.
Yeah I def think fire and blood is incredible after the main series - I don’t think it would’ve worked for me either to read it first!
I started yelling “MY QUEEN” when I saw this thumbnail😍 My favorite of his works
I’d love to hear your theory on the letter Aegon received from Dorne that made him settle for peace.
I think rhaenys is alive, in love with a dornish person, knows that aegon is a glamoured woman, and is threatening to reveal this in order to ensure peace for Dorne. There's a lot of hints that the first Aegon was actually a woman.
I also think Rhaenys the Conqueror is Quaithe. Check out the novella titles in "Spell of the Witch World".
Quentyn is dead for sure! I love your review of the book, wow, and I agree with pretty much everything. Thank you for this video! If you decide to cover parts in more detail, I think I would like to hear from you about the Dance and its main characters.
World of Ice and Fire covers the rest of the Targaryen kings if you don’t want to wait for Fire and Blood 2
Yes! I was waiting for this. I loooove how Fire & Blood is written. I was surprised at how quickly I devoured it and at how I keep going back to it to read individual parts of it again.
Maelor's death in this book is so so soooo brutal and gut wrenching i can't 😭😭😭😭😭
I was sooooo upset. I was all ready for a heroic moment and 🤪🤪🤪🤪
@@Bookborn George was like: you think Blood and Cheese is the most horrible thing you read in this book? Hahaha i have bad news for ya... 😜
@@Bookborn and about heroic moment of Rickard Thorne, this was like "kevan lannister thing" happened again. I choose to stand a very minor character in this book and after several paragraph George took him away. Damn you, George... 🥲
@@rafaelblake7278 they sense it. THEY SENSE IT!
I actually fully agree with your take on this especially as someone who was convinced to read the actual books through my reading of Fire & Blood
I love that just by the virtue of being dragonriders, Targaryen women have so much more freedoom, sway and presence. Dragons being the first in the feminist movement of Westeros!
This is something GRRM definitely has thought about when writing, considering that when dragons are gone, Targaryen women are much more sidelined, especially if they are stubborn and rebellious.
I also think Maegor killed himself because he saw that his cause was hopeless, as he could not have children and the remaining Targaryens rode against him. If he had killed them he would have ended Targaryen rule, and I think that was the trap that finally got to him.
Its not that he suddenly became good, it is that he became way too fucking depressed over being cursed and horrible and nothing going his way, and him not wanting to wipe out their own dynasty.
ALSO OFC YOUR OPINIONS ON RHAENA, Alysanne and Jaehaerys sister, and how she has some of the best moments in the entire book.
First of all, Rhaena supremacy. Thats all.
Second I never even connected the dragons to freedom for the Targaryen women and its suuuuch and excellent point, I have to think on it more. Especially extrapolating to Dany and the main series
@@Bookborn I am glad I brought up an interesting point! Glad you enjoyed the book, its my favorite ASOIAF book as a historian haha.
Like when you are flying a telekinetic nuke you are kind of a bigger, more important chess piece in every situation than almost every non-dragonrider. It also gives them complete freedom of movement, which is really useful if someone tells them what to do. They can always fly away.
That’s so true about the Targaryen women and their dragons. It's fascinating how this dynamic is explored in the main ASOIAF series through Daenerys. Nobody can truly tell her what to do because she wields the power. Interestingly, the dragons once symbolized oppression in Essos, but now they are associated with freedom by the oppressed.
Also, there seems to be a correlation between the hatching of dragons and the fertility of Targaryen women, with Rhaenyra being one example. This might explain why Dany was pregnant before she hatched her dragons, as well as why it was the men who died trying to hatch them.
So heres an interesting theory i found online. So in F&B Hugh Hammer talks about a prophecy regarding a hammer bringing down a dragon (i cant remember the whole thing) and the theory is that the prophecy is actually referring to Robert Baratheon