Sonny Liston vs Leotis Martin
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Sonny Liston vs Leotis Martin. Dec. 6, 1969. International Hotel & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States.
Санни Листон против Леотиса Мартина, 6 декабря 1969 г., поражение Листона в 9-ом раунде (KO) 
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This fight is tragic for 2 reasons, One Liston only had one more fight after this as he died a year later. And two, this was the biggest win of Martins career and he probably would've had a title shot but had to retire because Liston detached one of his retinas
Wow
the more i learn about liston, the more he becomes my favorite boxer
Sometimes, I wished Liston never became a boxer. It pains me to see what happened at the latter part of his career. I wish that Liston somehow found a good way to make a living other than this, but he died as he lived, a man born in a brutal, unforgiving, darwinist world, all he want to have is a normal life.
At 19:37 I can see tears strolling down Liston's face mere seconds before he would go down for the count.
I watched this fight with my father,George B. Mackey and my Uncle,Rolland Pierce. We were quite surprised by the sudden outcome!
Even here it shows Liston never learned how to step over with his right foot to the right to cut the ring off, instead he just follows Martin around in circles.
Moving sideways took his power away you notice sonny ALWAYS stepped forward with his left that way he was always prepared to follow up that jab with a powerful right. Moving to the side he could be caught flat footed as you noticed whenever a fighter got around him he literally would rather stop, turn his body completely around, and restart left foot then bring the right.
@@devilface97 I don't see many fighters doing it. Cutting the ring off is a simple move, where you are following your moving opponent, and your short step sideways over to your right, with your trailing right foot, you lose nothing defensively, you head off your opponent, cut the distance and trap your opponent towards the corners, leading off with what ever you see is open, and then your follow up left hook is right there. Foreman use to use that move, as a kid in the gym, I remember watching him practicing that step over move, all the time. Joe Louis used to do that move too.
@@devilface97 A good fight to watch and see this step to the right, with your right trailing foot corning tactic, is George Foreman vs Ken Norton. If you are who I think you might be, you we're a great fighter also, and I seen all your fighs too.
Sonny looked far older than his purported age of 37.It is sad to see him like that ,fighting on memories.I hope he found some peace and tranquility in the " next " world because he sure never found it in this one.Used and abused then possibly murdered at the end of the line.RIP Sonny.
We only live once, unfortunately the next world is the same world we already lived in. Sonny can now find solice in death at the fact that eventually everyone in that era who treated him horribly, will all meet the same eventual fate of death. Just like all people will.
Liston was already at the end of his career in this fight, his reflexes had slowed, but still a resourceful textbook boxer. Martin had to retire after this fight although he won because of a detached retina he suffered vs Liston.
+Cesar Flores It's crazy when you learn that Liston was actually over 40 during this fight, and his real age was 38 the first time he fought Ali
Nobody really knows Listons real age because he never had a birth certificate. He didn't even know his own age. He had a very sad story.
@@j.smoov7220
I agree, Liston is just the guy who Ali outpointed in the first bout and “knockdown” in the second.
@@Uuyrijies1123 He was great, but I've read his story and watched documentaries on him and they never knew his real age so they made up an age for him.
We'll never know if Joe Frazier would have agreed to fight Leotis because the latter never fought again--detatched retina. Sonny did fight one more time--beating Chuck Wepner. Of the four, only Chuck survives. They all gave us many great moments.
Sonny will always be the Greatest of All Time.
Nobody's invincible. Ali's jaw was broken by Norton. What did Norton "exploit" there. Liston may well have been pulling his punches in the first Ali fight. The Police Gazette thought so.
Liston could box and he could punch and he was incredibly strong. He was not a wild slugger like Foreman and, unlike Shavers, could go past four rounds. Could you imagine what he would have been like with the benefits of today's weight training and supplements.
could he imagine him in his prime. he was always the older guy
He didn’t like getting hurt. Like Tyson
Or even having access to plenty of food as a child.
Foreman could box just as good as liston. what foreman lacked in head movement and agility he made up for in parrying, blocking, framing, hand fighting , and his stiff sledgehammer like jab imo prime foreman stomps prime liston
And that’s what a REAL knockout of Liston looked like.
What goes around comes around
Poor Sonny...amazing fighter...but mistreated by everyone. The dignity in his brief responses here is really quite moving. But Leotis Martin was some fighter too...beat Thad Spencer here in London.
He had dignity because he represented himself. He tried being what people wanted him to be, but they only ended up rejecting him in the process. Unlike Joe Louis or Ali, he saw the true nature of people and how they really where, he gave up trying to be an idol for people that just throws money in a pit to see people fight to the death and instead fight for the people who weren't exposed to corrupted things like that which is kinda the reason why he wanted to be an idol for troubled children. But his health ultimately failed him and between the dates of December 25th of 1970 and January 5th of 1971, Liston past away, presumably via his already evident condition of pulmonary heart disease which lead to cardiac due to a self inflicted drug overdose of herion and the combination of several sedative type drugs.
No one knew exactly how old Sonny was when this fight with Martin took place. He was past his prime for sure, but still had enough of the old Sonny in him to be in the top 10 challengers. The Sonny of earlier times would have been devastating for Martin, not taking anything from Leotis. An eye injury in this fight forced a premature retirement for Leotis.
When Liston failed to take Martin out, I knew it was curtains. The Liston of old would never have allowed Leotis to get off the hook.
Astounding to think that after 45 years of life (?) and 16 years of boxing, the 8th Round is the moment of truth when Liston finally was out of gas, over the hill, reaching the moment all boxers face. This almost perfectly mimics Buster Douglas getting knocked down by Tyson, then 2-3 rounds later knocking him out, Tyson having shot his shot and having nothing left.
I liked Leotis Martin after I saw this. Loved how he said hello to everyone. I felt bad for Sonny Liston in the end when he was being interviewed.
Sonny gave all that he had to this sport, as a representative to mankind, and the ability to be redeemed, only to be remembered as a footnote to Ali... a bum, and a has-been. Sometimes society can be infuriating, but the only thing that we can do in these cicumstances is celebrate the life that he attempted to build for himself.
Howard Cosell missed the fight turnaround in the 8th ..Liston, much older than his stated age , was gassed. When Martin survived that left hook knockdown the fight took on a downward turn that Liston couldn't prevent..... Age, lifestyle were adversaries to Sonny this night as well as the very skilled Leotis Martin
Big deal, Liston was 62 years old. In his prime he would have killed Leotis Martin in 4 rounds
Nope cuz even in Liston prime Leotis handled him easy in sparings and Mac Foster knocked Liston in sparing
Leotis wasn't same man after killing Sonny Banks
Even in Listom prime he wouldn't defeat Martin
Leotis Martin was a former sparring partner of Liston's. That gave Martin an advantage. Martin won the fight, but lost in the long run, because that was his last fight, he suffered a detached retina in that fight.
@@antiteroristickejedinicepo4830 Leotis sure as hell couldn’t “easily” handle an ancient version of Liston so no ones going to believe he dominated when they sparred in Sonny’s prime. And the Mac Foster thing supposedly happened in the late 60’s, when Sonny was already years past his prime and even then, there’s no actual evidence that it happened, mainly just uncorroborated claims.
@@frankpaya690 Leotis was sparring partner when he was teen and tha doesn't count!Martis had retina surgery few months before Liston fight whom he damaged in fight with Bonavena.
@@verscarii3238 1.Leotis beat Liston and won 5 of 9 round which makes him a winner without KO.Liston was not ancient since he beat Johnson and Wepner very easy.Also if anyone was past his prime that was Martin!He killed a man,didn't fought or train for months and had retina surgery few months before fight.
2.Mac Foster was in 1965/1966!
Whilst being employed as a sparring partner for Sonny Liston, Foster was reputed to have knocked down the former world champion,[3] causing Liston two days later to work Foster over during another sparring session before handlers could intervene between the two men to stop it.[4]
Damn shame. Only true knock down of his career. The best fighter of his time.
+Heavyweightboxing Fan................. You and i know Liston threw both fights with Clay/Ali. Very few others realize or will admit it.
@@MrMarco855 Why did Liston threw the fight against Ali ?
@@JohnDoe-xx8pe The mob, the NAACP, the Press, the Federal Government, and the General public all hounding him.
@@JohnDoe-xx8pe The mob wanted Liston to lose the fight in a betting coup, then NAACP decides to reject him from even being a member. Plus Liston received pressure from JFK himself to retire due to him not wanting to see a man of Liston's "ilk" having the title.
Even at this stage of his career. A fight between Liston and Frazier would had been an interesting match up, given their contrasting styles.
Liston made some honest good comments at the end of the fight. He also made it to 50 professional fights.
wow never heard Sonny talk...what happened? Well if I knew that maybe it wouldnt happened lol he took a dive on Ali but this was a good win for Leotis...what a name Leotis
@eric Dubwaaa shut up with the bullshit ffs
A bit old, but just in case--"Leotis" was a made- up name from "Otis Lee." Martin wanted a unique name.
Dunno why the line through--it doesn't mean anything.
Liston was a great puncher and could take a good punch but he was not invincible. He had a tendency to drop the left after throwing it. Schmeling exploited this in Louis, Marty Marshall exploited this in Liston. In their three fights,He Broke Liston's jaw, dropped him and staggered him. Ali and Leotis Martin exploited this too and like nearly every heavyweight before Frazier, Liston pursued opponents by following them in a circle rather than cutting of the ring. This gave Ali room to evade him.
Sonny Liston was the 2nd greatest heavweight to have lived after Ali in my opinion. Thank you for the upload!
Ali was good but spoke to much BS.
Liston my favorite fighter, but Ali the Greatest! RIP Both Champions!
I know that I’m extremely late to the party, but yes indeed. There’s absolutely nobody apart from Muhammed Ali that can beat the great Sonny Liston in his prime!
Joe Louis would've beat Liston and Ali.
@@Section5_CdnIntelService Keep dreaming
Reading the comments here, it's amazing how People actually believe the first Ali v liston fight was fixed. Liston couldnt cut off the ring, and lunged a lot, he wasnt pulling his punches at all. if You look at his earlier fights he often failed to catch fighters , and missed a long way . Even when He did corner opponents they often slipped away. If a fighter stood Toe to Toe it was turn the lights out Time as in the Two Cleveland William's fights. But nifty fighters could dodge and Ali was the niftiest of all the Heavyweights, plus his jabs and lightening combinations were very damaging. Listons Face at the end of Round six tells the story, all battered and bruised. He quit to Avoid the inevitable, that he would be stopped. The Second fight was just weird, Ali did jolt his listons head, and he did drop other fighters with that quick punch. But if liston was gonna throw the fight that was a really strange way of doing it. The whole "fight" was a fiasco. Must have been awful for the people at the venue and those watching on TV.
interesting to note that sonnys reach here is numbered at a much lower 80 1/2 Inches.
When Liston couldn't KO Martin in the 4th, that was key.
Martin had a really good strategy here that Cosell missed out on.
He was going to stay at a distance and tire Liston out. Liston was really old here. I think in his late thirties.
Liston past prime ya know with the binge but wow Ali just stung him this dude layed him out cold guess. about anybody can get it ouch
Martin had no choice but to stay his distance. It wasn't so much a good strategy as a survival mechanism. And Cosell made that clear at the top of the first round. And that should have never tired a well-conditioned fighter. Liston was not in great shape here and may very well have been somewhere in his 40s, as his exact age has been subject to conjecture.
Of course I give Martin credit for his efforts. While it shouldn't have been enough for a well-conditioned Liston, it sufficed here.
@@Mikep487 this is the fight george noted that sonny looked sick the day before. Sonny also took this fight on short notice
Some say Sonny had grand kids doing time in 1964 when he fought Ali - some said he was closer to 50 - would make his birthday 1914 - lol
@@jamesreynoso4054- Sonny was born in 1930, confirmed by US Census records released 72 years later.
Liston was never the same after his fights with Ali. He became out of shape and wasn't as slim and strong as he used to be. I bet Patterson, the guy Liston destroyed twice in the first round would have killed Leotis Martin.
Patterson was a durable fighter and all opponents would have a hard time dealing with Patterson speed & accuracy
Oh and thanks for sharing this great great fight
Seeing Sonny Liston Knocked out ,suddenly , after dominating this fight , tells me that nobody is invincible Including SUPERMAN !!
If he had ever learned to cut off the ring the way George Foreman did he might have been even greater than he already was.
That was some very high level boxing from Martin to set up the final punch, the combination was woven together beautifully.
Liston vs tyson both in there prime who do you think would win.?
Liston, Tyson was and is overrated
@@frankpaya690 It would be a great fight to see wouldnt,what is it inparticular that you think tyson is overrated.?
@@paulcooper5748 I think a lot of his opponents were defeated before they ever got in the ring. I Think Tyson was built up a lot through advertising & Don King. Tyson's handlers even said they only signed with hollifield, because they thought hollifield was washed up. Tyson was a big, mean Street kid, but as far as the best in the world goes, I don't think so. The world covers a lot of territory. And that was vividly exposed when Tyson met hollifield, a fighter that hadn't bought into the Tyson press releases, and that actually knew how to fight.
Liston, Tyson had the same fighting style as patterson, although Tyson generated more torque.
No.
Liston was well past his prime when he fought Leotis Martin. But, the last thing to go on any fighter is punching power & Liston's power was still a threat. Martin was as tough as any fighter I've ever seen. He did what no other fighter ever did; get up from a knockdown during a fight with Sonny Liston & knock him out. Leotis Martin deserves distinction for that.
Some people think he was possibly older, born in 1927, and some reports of 1924.....no one really knows. If we were to believe the age Sonny gave, he fathered his daughter when he was 13!
Sonny was 38 just like it said in the TV graphics at the start of the fight. This fact was established when the United States government released US Census records in 2002 & 2012, 72 years after the Liston family filled them out in 1930 & 1940.
thes is sad
I'm sure there are a lot of punches that can be "heard," but they're still meaningless. I never once doubted there was a punch; it just couldn't have crushed a grape. It was hardly a KO punch and Walcott was wrong to stop the fight. There should have been a HUGE furor over it and there not being is itself suspicious. Ali wasn't a power puncher. He couldn't put away far less fighters than Liston, and Liston throughout his career was hit much harder than that without consequence.
I don't claim Ali invincible, especially after 1967.I like Liston. Norton's style of leaning right/right arm over left shoulder reduced Ali's ability to land his power punch( right cross over opponents jab).The Police Gazette had little more credibility in 1964 than the Enquirer does today. Review rounds 3 and 5 and ask yourself if it appeared that Liston pulled his punches. He returned to his corner breathing heavy after 5 and probably knew that if he did not quit that he would be Kayoed.
I Totally agree with you that those fights with Frazier and with Shavers and Holmes contributed largely to Ali's current condition.But, current condition and his ability to absorb blows are two separate issues. Shavers was a banger( probably the Hardest puncher ever) and the fact that Ali even survived the type of punches that he received is a testament to his durability. And I disagree: Chuvalo could punch of his 73 wins, he had 64 knock outs including one over Quarry had never been Kayoed.
@eric Dubwaaa Do you you have proof of this?
@eric Dubwaaa What are the five times that FBI investigated Ali fights that were tied to the mob? Name them. What was the FBI’s CONCLUSION? Only a shabby thinker would believe that Speculation and proof are synonymous. Allow me to educate you on a few facts: Due to the belief that many held that Sonny Liston was invincible, the Clay vs. Liston fight was investigated by both the FBI and the Florida district attorney. The FBI turned up no proof and the Florida district attorney publicly stated that there is no proof that the Clay vs Liston fight was fixed. What video in regards to Ali ( or Tyson) PROVES that a Knockout was scored by a missed punch or a punch that had insufficient power to do so? Proof and speculation are also two different things. As to the second Ali vs. Liston fight : the FBI investigated the fight, Ali’s connections with the Nation of Islam, Liston’s possible ties with the mob(Mafia) etc... for more than a year. They recently release more than 50 pages of DOCUMENTS chronicling the investigation. The investigation found no Proof of a fix. If you are going to attempt to fortify your belief system with the FBI , know a few facts prior to mentioning them. You called me “ fanboy” . Am I to assume that that is your attempt to show I just praise Ali blindly? You do not know me. I love Ali but know that Liston is one of my all time favorite heavyweights. I have studied every one of Liston’s fight of his that I could find.
THERE IS NO FRICKIN WAY ALI BEAT THIS MAN LEGITIMATELY INVISIBLE PUNCH MY ASS.
Liston was actually 50 here. He was way ahead of his time.
I read that Liston left this fight with pocket change. Bastards.
They did the same to Cleveland Williams garnishing his winnings for a supposed hospital expenses after being shot with a .357 magnum at point blank range.
Perhaps contributing to the reason that the Liston fights were deemed suspicious was because Liston was considered invincible. He was not. No one knew his age.Yes Frazier Did beat Ali due to Frazier's Stamina and Ali's not being ready after the layoff.Ali never regained what he lost during the layoff.Still, He beat Frazier in two long distance rematches.My point is:Ali had the Ability to stay in there with any fighter including Marciano and it is not unlikely that Ali would win.
A 1966 Clay v. a 1956 Marciano. On paper it should be Clay, but it wouldn't be easy. Marciano beat Walcott, but Clay was better than Walcott. Clay had trouble with Frazier, but Marciano was better than Frazier. Both had the ability to go 15. ???
@@warrenrosen2326
Ezzard Charles beats Ali or Clay, young or old. Equally fast, harder puncher in both hands, better footwork, both smart tough boxers. Marciano wore Charles down with the relentless assault. Clay/Ali gets the same treatment.
What about '66 Ali vs '66 Frazier?
I agree only in that it is not impossible that Ali would win on cuts. I also feel that as good a puncher as Marciano was, he did not have the speed of foot or hand nor the needed size( particularly reach) to beat Ali in his prime. The Rock could punch but Ali took a better punch than anyone I could think of. Rocky did not cut the ring off as well as Frazier (vital in beating a prime Ali) Ali would never trade with Rocky. He wouldn't have to. Rocky was about 5'10 with really short arms.
The distinction is between the greatest and the best. 49-0 equals the best. The greatest is the highest skill level attained. Clay could do things no heavyweight even thought of. Just don't mention Tyson in the same paragraph as Marciano. Tyson was a 3 rd fighter. After that, it's all Rocky.
@@warrenrosen2326 Marciano no doubt had an undefeated record. He earned his stripes . But having an undefeated record does not guarantee that he would have beaten or is better than a fighter he never faced. Everybody is undefeated until they are defeated. Styles make fights. In my opinion Frazier’s style has elements that made it difficult for Ali. He moved his head , he cut off the ring and he double up on his hook. These are not things I see in Marciano’s style. Marciano liked to crouch low and lean to his right .perhaps this could have given Ali some trouble being that he liked to throw a looping right over An opponents jab and the lean would tend to nullify the opportunity given the lean and the fact that Marciano rarely jabbed. Still , I believe that Ali would have won 4 out of 5 times. We should not write Tyson off . His era saw some advancements in training, nutrition etc... that where not present in the 50s and 60s. This is why it is not particularly fair to pit fighters of different eras against each other. Marciano fought in smoke filled arenas and probably trained in smoke filled gyms. Boxers don’t face that today. They get to analyzed videos of their opponents in slow motion and on high definition equipment. There is no doubt in my mind that Tyson was a first rate fighter and would have given any great fighter from the past a world of trouble. When I give an opinion as to who would have won a match between fighters of different eras I hypothetically give the one from the older era knowledge about the guy he is facing and all the advantages of the more recent era. I also consider the number of rounds( 12,15 ,26 etc...) rules, referee trends of an era( stoppages and allowances).
@@slybear525
Ali could win against Rocky on points/cuts in a large ring with the stick and move. But notice how he stops moving in Ali-Frazier 1 after Joe whacks him with the left early on. Ali is flatfooted the rest of the fight. Marciano trained to fight 20 rounds at full strength and sooner or later tracks him down and pounds him. Ali proved he could take head shots from the best but Rocky won every fight by going inside with body shots until the arms dropped for the KO. The lack of reach meant he could not win a fight on points. So it was KO or lose. Thats a kamikaze mindset. Clay/Ali can run but he can't hide. Marciano begins landing the leaping left by round 4 or 5 and wins any fight that goes past 9 rounds.
I'm not convinced Rocky is a bleeder. Ezzard Charles in a freak accident ripped his nose in two but in the first Charles and the 1st Walcott fight the blood wasn't a factor after several rounds. The Ali jab could draw blood at range but crouching Marciano hard to punch down to. And he dropped Charles for the Ko in the round when he was told the ref would stop the fight on the nose cut. How do you quantify force of will?
@@albanyorganics3030 All we can do with these dream fights is guess and imagine I never insist that my opinion is the only possibility. But I do study fighters, the boxing rules and trends in refereeing and training for their era. It is not impossible that Ali could win on cuts or points vs Rocky. He definitely had the tools to do it and he was a master at using those tools. Again, the Ali of the 60s to hundreds of body shots from Chuvalo and was basically not hurt by them. So there is a possibility that a fit Ali would survive Rockys body attacks as well if he even had to. After the layoff , He was not ready for Frazier in that first fight. His Bonavena fight was indication of that. And Frazier’s skill of head bobbing and cutting off the ring was something never seen on that level in heavyweight boxing. Marciano did not do these things. Ali never had to hide against any opponent and he like wouldn’t have had to against Marciano. Instead he would beat him to the punch and move out of the way afterwards. Ali had a way of make a kamikaze style fighter run into his punches. Marciano winning 49 fights is no guarantee that he would have beaten a fighter he has never faced. Nobody is invincible
always a great deal of controversy on sonny listons actual age, Some critics speculate he was older by 2-8 years then he claimed to have more longevity in this career where to be 32 is considered old.
He may have been 15 years older.
Interesting factoid. This was the first fight for the North American Boxing Federation heavyweight title.
I remember this fight as a kid. I was like what?!
Liston made the fatal mistake of dropping his guard and moving forward. When that happened Liston literally walked into Martins right, and it was over. That was probably the hardest punch that Liston was ever hit with in a match.
I doubt that. Williams punches looked much harder.
Any good heavyweight can deliver a hard punch it’s just how to execute it in a regular fashion to be able to get the knockout results.
RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT....BOOM! Fight over, thats all.
I did not say that Chuvalo was a super puncher. I said he could punch. I saw the Chuvalo/Quarry fight.Quarry went down via a single left hook near the front hair line.He got up but obviously felt dizzy enough to kneel kneel back down to collect himself.In any event, he may have been disoriented because Zach Clayton clearly counted so that Jerry could hear. Chuvalo said of Quarry's act." That is how it is when you are hurt, you think you are hearing one thing when you are hearing another"
crushing,compeling victory
lol we can see that vs 40+ year old liston
Who fixed the Ali/Liston fights? it is not likely the Muslims could. In fight1 Ali was blinded in 5th by strange substance. If powers that be wanted Liston to lose, why not blind Liston? Liston Throw his best shots at Ali in 3rd and 5th, hoping for a KO only to receive cut, swollen eyes for his efforts so, he was not likely in on the fix if there was one.Before Ali, fighters blocked shots. Ali made guys hit air. Liston whose prime ended two yrs before, was out of gas after 5th and quit.
didnt Liston have an 84" reach not 80.5?
+mark unrau ........Yes he did. When liston fought cleveland williams, the announcers kept saying williams had a reach advantage. They repeated that in both liston/williams fights. The fact is, liston had a reach of 84 inches, the longest in heavyweight history, save for one fighter that was 7 feet tall. Williams had a long reach also at 80 inches,but it was still 4 inches less than liston's reach.
Considering liston had such an unbelievable reach you would expect that all announcers would be fully aware of that fact. They got it wrong against williams and here also. The announcers of today screw everything up, and apparently the same was true back then. It's hard to believe they couldn't get this simple fact right.
no, he didn't
@@Slipknot5301 yes he did.
Ali was way to fast for all those great names. Prime Ali is unbeatable I believe. He is too smooth they can not catch him and when if they do he has a great chin. For example watch the Ernie Terrell fight Ali does not stop dancing and he comes out to the 15th as if it were the first round. He is Magical.
Nobody seriously examining Chuvalo's fights could seriously contend he was a puncher. He couldn't even put away Floyd Patterson. With Floyd's porcelain chin, that says plenty. Did you observe the Quarry kayo. Jerry was clearly timing his rising up from the knockdown and actually miscalculated. He could've gotten up earlier. I'm very surprised you didn't notice that, unless you didn't actually see the fight and just looked at a list of Chuvalo's fights.
Sonny was my favourite boxer for what he achieved in his life but he was like Mike Tyson a bully going forward but once he was hurt he was done. No heart
Obviously Sonny is a lot older than 37 years old no body knows how old he really was or what he could have done in his prime whenever that was sad 😢 ending.All he ever wanted is to be liked underneath the rough exterior and that is why he got along with children so well they could sense that R.I.P. SONNY Amen
Sonny was 38 just like it said in the TV graphics at the start of the fight. This fact was established when the United States government released US Census records in 2002 & 2012, 72 years after the Liston family filled them out in 1930 & 1940.
Thank you for that information.So he was no Archie Moore and that fight finished both of them, whereas George Foreman was just getting going again at thirty eight years old. But George was kayoed to by Ali with heavyweights anything can happen. @@apefilms7221
Ali banked on opponents who tired easily. He was very fast, but if he ever had to take Marciano's body shots for any length of time, he wouldn't have ribs left. With Rocky's own magnificent conditioning, it would have been only a matter of time until he was trapped and disposed of. He also wasn't nearly as hard a puncher as they were, though I'd label him a good puncher.
he took foremans best body shots so rocky would not beat ali
@@kevinmunday5782 Foreman is head hubter who gassed after 6 rounds!!!!
Marciano is efective body puncher and he would hurt Ali ribs and arms!
I rank Ali as the greatest of all time, but in a fight with Rocky i think he loses by a split decision.
Rocky would put a relentless pressure and really hurt his ribs, he has a granite chin too and he’s so determinated
And he had a great stamina too, Ali can’t dance for 15 rounds not even in his prime
@@gerardoscapegoat9999
Ali danced 15 rounds in Ali-Spinks 2 because he wasn't hit. Frazier clocked him right out of the gate in Ali-Frazier 1 and he was flatfooted the rest of the night. Ali counted on his reflexes and speed to stay out of range and trap anyone moving inside by landing (moving backward!) the counter right 'anchor' punch that dropped Liston Mildenberger Foreman et al. But Marciano wins any fight longer than 9 rounds with anybody you can think of-Ali, Louis, Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Tyson. Body shots until the arms drop for the KO. Only Holyfield goes the distance. Rocky all time greatest fighter ever. Neither Ali nor Louis said they could take him in their prime. And both of them knew from experience what he could do. The Rock trained to fight 20 rounds at full strength and never once took a backward step. An unstoppable force of nature in the ring.
A pyric victory by Martin,!!! , So much so, he couldn't fight again because of costly detached retina
I like and respect the careers of Ali, Liston, Marciano, Louis etc...And just because I point out possible flaws in styles does not mean that I do not respect their accomplishments. There is no proof that the Ali/Liston fights were fixed.Just the belief that Liston could not be beaten by a much younger, taller faster, durable,more skilled active fighter. Between 1961 and 64, Liston had fought less than two rounds. he was probably 37 at the time.His peak years were 1958-62.
Liston, according to Chuck Wepner, was easily over 50 y.o. when they met. Wepner said Sonny was the hardest puncher he ever faced ... even well past his prime. I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly
Clay/Ali made Liston look as silly chasing him around the ring as he did Foreman a decade later. A fighter who flummoxed nearly everyone for almost 20 years.
Prime Liston vs Louis a great fight.
i have a skills breakdown of sonny liston, come watch
In the computer fight, the 2 fighters Ali & Marciano had to film actual rounds. They tested each other in the ring. Ali's jabs bloodied Marciano's nose.
But Rocky did what he did excellently, he cut off the ring. No clinches. 40-year-old Marciano went into a crouch forcing Ali to jab downward & because Rocky always keeps moving -- hard to hit. Then he lunges with both fists firing. Hit Ali on the arms consistently as the computer predicted. Jab disappeared since his arms became weary.
In reality -- Ali needed 2-days' rest before resuming filming because he could not lift his arms. He was in his prime.
As for Liston's reach, many official stats say 80" not 85" & had the biggest hands in boxing as everyone would like you to believe. Especially Wikipedia. Not accurate. The 6'6 Primo Carnera had an 85" reach officially & huge hands.
Anyone who understands boxing also knows that a Rocky Marciano wouldn't be affected by a longer reach fighter since his style was to punch from his shoulders -- delivering a 186 lb punch from either hand. He'd also crouch & get under.
Watching Liston in this fight he telegraphs his punches. He has strength but is not invincible. Gerry Cooney was strong too. Up to a point he was knocking everyone out who stood in front of him.
Liston's boxing skills are not skillful. Not like an Ali, Tyson, or Foreman. I seldom saw him use a left hook. They say he had a great jab. You can't depend on that to win fights. He's strong -- but he doesn't deliver the way Marciano, Frazier & Foreman do. Most of the fighters he defeated were not skillful, or talented -- except for a young brash Ali, and Leotis (who was not highly regarded).
In the Leotis fight, he delivered the same combination to a bleeding-faced Liston (Leotis' jabs must have got to him) -- as Buster Douglas delivered to Mike Tyson. Textbook perfect.
Not easy to knock a guy like Liston out cold & unlike in the Ali fight you saw the KO come.
In his next fight, his last, big Chuck Wepner went 10 rounds with Liston but lost seated on his stool due to cuts. Liston didn't KO him. Wepner was double tough. A former champion Floyd Patterson hardly lasted one round with Sonny & Wepner took him to 10.
His record just doesn't convince me that Sonny was one of the Top 10 heavyweights of all time. Not with people like Dempsey, Tunney, Joe Louis, Marciano, Ali, Foreman, Tyson, and Frazier in the mix. And I left out some of the younger ones.
Even the late Jerry Quarry -- never champ but had 66 fights with 53 wins & only 9 losses. Just as impressive as Liston's scorecard. The majority of his losses were to name contenders, former & future heavyweight champions. He defeated both Ron Lyle & Earnie Shavers. A very impressive record in a 27-year career.
Liston would've knocked Marciano out in two or three rounds.
@@Section5_CdnIntelService - Amazing you'd think that since no one ever knocked out Rocky or even came close.
And if you look at Liston's record he only succeeded against a majority of unknown fighters not ranked fighters (Zora Foley & Cleveland Williams were the only name fighters & they didn't have much of a career when Liston met them).
Ali was also a fresh fairly new fighter who wasn't given much of a chance. We all know what Ali did to Liston twice. Liston won against Chuck Wepner but it took him 10 rounds to do it & Wepner was no Marciano.
Boxing logic & reality doesn't agree with you.
By the way, Liston was fighting during Marciano's tenure as champion but he curiously never put himself in contention. Gee, I wonder why? Maybe Sonny didn't think he would succeed.
In his later career, Liston was knocked out cold by a Leotis Martin -- who was not at the time considered a big threat & he too was knocked down earlier in the fight by Liston. But that didn't deter Leotis from putting together a vicious combination.
There is nothing to suggest that Sonny Liston could knock out Rocky Marciano in 3 or 4 rounds. Nothing. Liston never met someone who hit as hard & fast as Rocky. Never met anyone with that kind of stamina, durability & viciousness.
Better heavyweights couldn't do it.
@@lastrada52 Marciano fought a bunch of old guys and fat light heavyweights. Liston would have crushed him.
@@Section5_CdnIntelService LOL -- how old do you think Sonny Liston was? Go ahead try and figure it out. No one really knew how old he was for certain but many experts suspect he was older than most. Which would make him maybe 4 years younger than Rocky. Another old man.
As far as old men -- Jersey Joe Walcott was no pushover, he was the champion at the time, but even in his 30s, he was just as effective as George Foreman & Ali were. How old do you think Tyson Fury is?
You should do some research before you talk. Don't forget that Rocky himself was an older man when he started his career. One thing is for sure -- you wouldn't survive in the ring with him.
You know, guys like you always like to bring up the age factor (when by today's standards it's fine) but they were all top-ranked fighters. Marciano didn't rank them the boxing commission did.
How about the question of how many 2nd tier heavyweights Ali fought in any given match. No one questions that. Lots of "bums" of the month. Some were not even ranked in the top 10.
You fight who's available, who's qualified, and where the money is -- Rocky dodged no one in 49 fights. Many were champions, former champions, KO artists like Roland LaStarza, and Carmine Vingo (16-1), Rex Lane (34-1-2), Lee Savold (96-37-3), & tough contenders (Ezzard Charles twice -- has one of the best records in the heavyweight division). Rocky fought the English champion Cockrell who was stockier & bigger than him. He fought Joe Louis & Rocky was the underdog.
Do some research, will you? These men sometimes went 15 rounds. Not like today -- they go 12 & are breathing heavily by 5.
I'm just asking you to get wiser.
Ali called every one ugly
Sonny's fighting the same way, same style as in 1964, it's like he ain't learnt shysh but after losing to Ali in Lewiston he reeled off 13 victories in a row but never got a title shot.
Ali could never have stayed in with Marciano, who had the greatest combination of punch, ability to take a punch and stamina in the history of boxing. His only hope would have been a victory on cuts, unlikely but not impossible.
In the post fight interview Sonny sounds like a decent likeable guy. Why was Sonny not ever given another title shot after his loss to Ali in Lewiston.
Because people wouldn't let him live down his past. Ali wouldn't let him live down the loss, and even he himself wouldn't let himself live it down. The MAN WAS DEPRESSED, the only thing that gave him joy in life, boxing, that ever gave him a chance to feel like he was worth something was being stripped throughout his whole career by the boxing establishment and what the NAACP wants in a idol. Liston was a man born in the wrong time. Liston was a man that could only depend on himself, and when he needed people the most, even when it came to his own loved ones, they all left or turned against him. He was a man that came into the world by himself, made a living by himself, and died by himself.
Walcott was screamed at by the time keeper that Liston had been down beyond 10second.Due to Ali's behaviour following the punch,it is understandable why Walcott stopped it. There was no furor over it because obviously,his initial action was not to stop it.I guess he wasn't in on the "fix" either.The Ray Mercer who beat Morrison was not the same Mercer who was kayoed by Shannon Briggs.Non power punching Ali, put down Bonavena with one left hook where Frazier couldnt in 20 rounds. Things happen.
Felt so bad for sonny liston..
There is no excuse for walcot to not do his job, then stop the fight at the behest of someone when that wasn't their job. A timekeeper is for the rounds, the ref counts. Sonny himself blamed joe. No fix needed, just a better ref was needed.
@@devilface97 Yes there
Was no excuse for Walcott to have not done his job. I am not suggesting that there was.But rather, I am offering a possible reason why he failed to do his job that night. I believe he lost control of the fight and became confused. I pointed this out to counteract the notion that the fight was fixed due to the fact that Wolcott stopped the fight basically out of on the spree confusion and therefore the ending knockout of the fight( knockout) was not premeditated by the referee who initially did not think to stop the fight.
Marciano was great.But,Consider and note: All fighters hope that their opponents tire.That's Boxing. Still, Ali beat many fighters who had great stamina. Chuvalo, who actually had some training from Marciano and had fantastic stamina, was beaten by Ali. Frazier had great Stamina and Ali beat him. The Ali of 1964-1967 was in tremendous shape. Ali took a better punch than anyone save maybe Chuvalo, fought some of the hardest punchers in history:Shavers,Foreman,Liston,Frazier-and beat them.
You might be right, it's just that I never saw a heavyweight who could continuously throw heavy punches even through the later rounds as Marciano. His output was non human and he didn't stop till the job was finished, no matter what.
Marciano had harder fights from '51 to '55 than Clay/Ali did from '62 to '66 that made his reputation. Ali could dance 15 rounds (Ali-Spinks 2) even at age 35 if he wasn't hit. And nobody really hit him until Frazier, after which he was never the same. Clay/Ali was never really tested and Ali after exile was never dominant. Whereas Rocky was brought along with increasingly more difficult fights from LaStarza to Charles that he rose to the occasion for each time, Clay/Ali was never seriously challenged until Frazier and just held his own after that until Holmes. Look at the noise he made in the computer fight after Marciano hit him with a flurry to the arms and body. That's all it took for him to tell Cosell in an interview that he didn't know if he could take Rocky in a real fight. Clay/Ali needed real competition to develop that never happened. The battles with Frazier should have happened for him in '65- '66. Prime Clay/Ali has never been seen.
Ali took head shots after exile but his style meant staying out of range his whole career of the body shots which wear down a fighter into the middle rounds that take the breath away. The Marciano style tooks hits to deliver the body blows that bring the KOs in the mid to late rounds that Clay/Ali expert at dodging. The rope-a-dope wouldn't work on Marciano. Wouldn't have worked twice on Foreman either. No holding the back of crouching Marciano's head. Ali can't punch down and he's vulnerable to the Rocky leaping left as much as to Frazier's wicked hook. Rocky trained for real. Clay/Ali conditioning never battle-tested before Frazier. Marciano a warrior. Clay/Ali a player.
@@albanyorganics3030 Yes Ali proved to be able to take hard shots even though at the peak of his career he didn’t have to. Ali’s condition was tested before Frazier. In 1966 it was tested vs Chuvalo for 15 rounds who fought very similar to Marciano and even trained with him. The Ali of 1971 was not the same as the Ali of 1966. In my opinion, Marciano would not have benefited from taking punches to deliver a punch vs Ali. Firstly , Ali would likely had landed a higher volume on Marciano than Walcott, Moore or Charles. We think that Marciano would have survive Ali’s punches . But that is not a guarantee. Charles , and Lowry bloodied him up. Moore and Walcott dropped him. These were older fighters by the time they fought Marciano. This is to say nothing of how many times these fighters landed shots on Rocky. Secondly Ali would have been much harder to hit than those fighters who were older and fought predominantly flat footed and stationary as was typical of Heavyweights of that era. As I have pointed out several times in the comments below this video, Joe Frazier fought an Ali who although still great, was not as great as he had been before exhale. Notice that even with Frazier’s ability, Ali made enough adjustments in his strategy to be able to stick and move in there rematches. Unlike Marciano and the many heavyweights before him , Frazier was a master at cutting off the ring. That is what helped to keep an Ali from dancing away. This aspect was not in Marciano’s skill set to the degree that it was in Frazier’s partially because until Ali came along, few fighters moved around like Ali. Marciano’s opponents stood right in front of him trading punches. Ali would not have used the rope-a-dope vs Marciano . He wouldn’t have to. Make no mistake about it Ali( I don’t know why you feel the need to call him Clay/Ali. It serves no purpose here) is just as much of a warrior as Marciano. When Ali was younger his warrior strategy was to sting and not be stung. A logical strategy for any soldier on the battlefield. When he was older no longer had that ability , he had to use his ability to take a punch, to mislead , to tie up to cover. Naturally we all speculate as to who would win these dream fights. We don’t know for sure. We can only give our opinions.
@@albanyorganics3030 Marciano fought 15 opponents with either more loses than wins , an equal amount of loses and wins or making their professional boxing debut. Four of these opponents were fought after 1950. There was also opponents such a Lee Savold who by the time the met , was definitely washed up having fought 153 bouts with 45 loses and 4 draws. The fights that were hard for Marciano were against Walcott 49-18-1, Charles 85-10-1, Charles 85-11-1, Moore 149-19-8. Looking at the ages and records of these fighters, I do not believe that any of these fighters at this stage in their careers would have been tough fights for Ali. I think he would have beaten them easily. Just my opinion. I agree that Ali was never the same After Frazier 1 but neither was he the same as he was before the lay off. The Marciano era was a relatively weak one for heavyweights. That’s why he fought guys well past their primes and beat a Walcott who was nearly 40 years old for the championship. Ali definitely faced better fighters than Marciano has. Ali fought a fighter who either was a current world champ, a past world champ or a future world champ 18 times and was victorious 13 times. Ali did what he had to do to win these fights. That is what boxers do. He should have retired sooner, perhaps after the Lyle fight. Marciano got out off boxing after the Moore fight which was a smart move. He did not look good in beating Moore, being decked and missing a lot of punches. Had he stayed he would have face Patterson, Liston,Williams, Foley and others after 49 bouts. I feel that Rocky proved himself a great fighter vs LaStraza. He is an all time great. So is Ali. 3 time champ who beat some other all time greats such as Foreman, Frazier, Liston.
Look at clips of Ali/Liston 2, turn up the audio.You will hear kayo punch land. Also ABC had a second camera angle on the fight where you also hear the punch as well as see it. Marciano was sitting with Cossell at in the press box. While he felt that Ali was not in the best position to throw it, he agreed that it was possible that it did catch Liston right and put him down. in fight one Liston tried hard to ko Ali in rds. 3and5 and was busted up in both eyes. He must not have been in on the fix.
@eric Dubwaaa You probably never boxed before.
@eric Dubwaaa At one time nobody believed the world was round.
@eric Dubwaaa Okay , have a good life
@eric Dubwaaa Wrong flat earthboy. Marciano never questioned the punch. He questioned whether or not the two fights were a true test of Ali’s greatness because Ali had never been hit with a good punch in those two fights and most other that he had had.
@eric Dubwaaa At least you appear to be attempting to justify your original claim of 5 Ali fights investigated by the FBI. However, Those fights that you mention here, were not investigated by the FBI as far as I know. For what it is worth, I felt that Jimmy Young should have won the decision over Ali as well. However I am able to see reasons why the decision did not go in Young’s direction. And, I am not so gullible so as to think that any decision I don’t agree with must be a pre- planned mob fix. I judge fights all the time, sometimes with a friend who judged for a state Athletic commission. I know that sometimes , for reasons other than threat from the mafia, judges see things differently than I. Of course fixes have obviously happened. But rather than throw out accusations that lack proof, I prefer to stick to that which can be proven. I don’t know who Jen Burton is so I can’t comment concerning him. Ali has not faced anyone by that name to my knowledge. Frazier certainly won the first fight vs Ali. But I disagree that Frazier won the second. It seemed clear to me that Ali outpointed Frazier and even had him in a bit of trouble in round two , only to have the referee accidentally and prematurely call a temporary halt to action that saved Frazier from being in deeper trouble. And of course Ali stopped Frazier in their third fight. Although the rounds were usually close and competitive, I clearly saw Ali win the majority of rounds against Shavers as did the three judges. Shavers did hurt Ali. Even if you didn’t Agree with Ali being called the winner a fight that close and brutal in both directions is atypical for a fight that would have a predetermined result. Ali haters claim Ali was tied to the mob( mafia) But he couldn’t be with the Nation of Islam and the Mafia at the same time. Before going off on a tangent about fight fixes We must think these things through.
Marciano and Louis were probably superior to either fighter. If everything was on the up and up, I don't think Ali could have beaten Liston, who was one of the hardest punchers of all time.
Good to hear from the always obnoxious and abrasive Howard Cosell... with a curiously humane ending... didn't know he had it in him ! ! !
Howard Cossell was great , He and Ali were Good Friends, it was a Golden era all round
@@kevinmunday5782 I'm glad he had some friends.
The big mouths of the press the powerful and Ali destroyed him. I never saw a perfect individual on this earth
19:42
The Liston fights were both suspicious and Frazier also beat Ali the first time. Shavers was basically a four-round fighter with no boxing skills whatsoever, just a bomber who tired easily. Chuvalo was a one-way fighter: great stamina and ability to take a punch but no offensive power at all. That's where he and Marciano parted company. BTW, the beatings Ali took from Frazier (even in Ali's winning efforts) probably contributed greatly to the sad physical shape he's been in for many years.
Leotis martins tough
rounds 5-7 are gone
Liston was def a very, very solid heavyweight... I almost wrote a book on Liston.... Liston was a classic “tweener” as we call them. He was amazing for the 1950-1960 era heavyweights, A monster that could move fairly well with power and skill. Remember, Liston made his pro debut in 1953 vs Don Smith.. Rocky Marciano was King at 187 pounds. 13 years later we had fighter like Ali & Terrell that where both taller and bigger than Liston. Liston was not nearly as big as advertised. The 84 inch reach was pure non-sense, Ali had a longer BOXING reach. As a fighter, your legit reach is from the armpit to the knuckles, not wingtip to wingtip. Broad shoulders and long fingers are what we call waisted reach in boxing. Liston had wide shoulders and real long fingers. Liston’s actual measured reach was 80 1/2 inches as seen in this video. Ali was actually longer in the ring. Sadly, Sonny’s entire killer reputation was built on 3 fights. Westphal in 1961 and the 2 Patterson fights, all 3 of these fights where 1st round KO’s which gave Liston this insane reputation. By 1964, Liston had aged to 33 1/2 years old,
@9:15 Howard Cosell always talking about some insignificant trivial from the past, nobody likes the Texas..Longhorns àrkansas
Sonny would have toyed with either of the Klitschkos in their prime.
If you give him stilts and a sledge hammer
BS
greaterrome and then he would have been knocked out
I would have to agree
Look how slow and easy to read son is and he is picked to beat people like tua a man that never was beat by a slow basic fighter like son Dave would destroy him
Sonny got sonned.
listen jab would be the difference
Before he started talking Leotis should've taken the marbles out of his mouth.
You'll learn to talk with a steel toed boot jammed up your ass, son.
@@TheBatugan77 Wish I could give you the opportunity to say that in my face... you too, right ?
Ali took all of the SONNY LISTON out of Him!!!😂
マーチンよ〜🎉ちょっとマチンサイヤ〜😂
Sorry fight fans.. But any "educated" person knows that this was set-up! Plain & simple! People can argue with the wind all they want? hahaha
Leotis, a Philly trash collector. I saw Sonny's rap sheet when I was a young Investigator in the Philly Probation Dept..He was a thug!
Can you elaborate more on that.
Hey man nice info!
Sonny used to defend mobsters from strikes!They used to hire him few times!
@@paulcooper5748 Armed Robbery, Aggravated Assault, Terroristic Threats, etc.
No phantom punch.
19:40