Daughters of Wealth Manager at the Mormon Church Speak Out | Ep. 1776
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
- Join us as the two daughters of a Mormon Church’s Ensign Peak executive unravel the controversies, corruption, and conscience surrounding the LDS Church’s investment firm and its impact on the Mormon Church. Rylee and JoCee Porter share their initial doubts and concerns, discussing the morality of non-profits acting as for-profit entities and their reactions to David Nielsen's whistleblowing. We discuss the opulent Mormon temples in impoverished areas, the staggering $100 billion figure, and the ethical use of funds. Rylee and Jocee talk about their conversations with family members about Ensign Peak’s breaking of laws and the troubling implications of church leaders' involvement. Join us for an enlightening conversation that encourages critical thinking about the complexities surrounding Ensign Peak, raising questions about ethics, responsibility, and societal impact.
Rylee's Insta: / ryleecoyotee
Rylee's Facebook: ryleeporter92
JoCee's Insta: / jocee.holladay
Too Pretty to Code Ugly: codepretty.tech/
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
00:00:00 Intro and recap
00:07:30 Rylee and JoCee’s disclaimers
00:15:00 When Rylee first started having questions/concerns about Ensign Peak
00:24:00 The girls react to the whistleblowing
00:31:30 Rylee confronts her dad about Mormon hypocrisy on wealth
00:44:30 JoCee’s turn to see the problems and confront her dad
00:47:00 Mormon church leaders directed the dishonest and illegal behavior.
01:01:00 The church should be held to a higher standard
01:18:00 Maybe they NEED member feedback about what to do with the money
01:19:00 Their father IS bothered by the lack of charitable spending/projects
01:23:00 Why Ensign Peak and Mormonism is more evil than Amazon
01:48:00 Rylee’s ideas for what to do with the money
01:58:00 Condemning scripture from Timothy
01:59:00 Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation story
02:04:00 Rylee’s future in Bend, Oregon
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I was baptized, but I am an ex Mo. My mom and dad are still all in. My mom and dad both worked their entire lives. They retired at 67 years old. At that time the Bishop called my dad to become his executive secretary/clerk. So for the past 5 or 6 yrs, my mother and father have blown through all of their savings and are struggling to pay bills bc all of my dad’s time and money go to the church. All while my dad works 60 hours a week with the bishop for free. He cannot even get a job bc he doesn’t want to offend the church. I am so tired of this and it disgusts me.
I worked with a brilliant organist who worked in a mainline church at a fair price, then he volunteered as the organist at his Mormon church later the same day for FREE! He struggled to raise his large family. Why is this right?
The church has always been about worshipping God. And when you receive a calling, it is service and worship to God. It doesn't always mean problems will leave.
When the Savior came to earth his life was so hard and he barely had a place to stay. And yet through it all he served God the Father bringing people unto him. Asking others to follow him and to serve, and to bring people to the truth and the light of the gospel.
The gospel doesn't fix everything, the gospel is about having faith in our Lord and Savior and God The Father and believing in them. And continuing on the right path no matter how hard it gets. (And it's hard!)
That's a fair and valid faith affirming perspective. I guess I would just add an observation that an institution (whether religious or otherwise) can and will easily exploit service for free labor.
Retired Social Security members are not asked to pay tithing because they paid their 10% once and don’t pay it again on the same money. Current member.
@@maryadams4731 Mary, I wish this was the case, but I'm afraid you're incorrect. Unless the retired member paid on their gross pay throughout their working years, they're still asked to pay 10% of their retirement earnings. Bishop roulette and individual different can of course come into play however.
As a former ward clerk I can tell you that the church leaders put a lot of pressure on bishops to reduce welfare payouts. One stake president I know was told his stake expenditures were up 20% trying to shame him. His response was, "That is great we are helping more people, I want to do more!". Mic drop.
This presentation was so helpful as to the whole cover up and fraudulent decisions made by many right up to the prophet these young ladies are inspiring
I am so angry right now.
I joined the LDS Church when I turned 19 yrs old . Just graduated from a technical highschool (longer than regular highschools) because we graduate with a degree and careers.
My family has always been supportive of all my 'adventures'. We weren't rich more of a middle to lower class living pay check to pay check.
My bishop was very excited to hear I decided to serve in a mission. What I didn't know was what was about to come.
They knew I was in school and never worked ( two shifts schools schedule).
I used the little money I had for my mission. I had friends helping me buying clothes.
I sent in my application and received my call to serve within my own country (Argentina). I'm from the northeastern part. I was sent to the southern middle part limiting with Chile.
A few months in. I received a letter from my mom saying the bishop who they barely knew stopped by to 'visit'. After I returned home, my mom told me his visits weren't to be nice and Christian of him. He was visiting as a collection officer. He asked my senior mom to give him money for 'my mission'. She cried and gave him some money, the little she had.
I don't know if branches receive money for each missionary they sent to the field. I also don't know if bishops are 'obligated' to ask for money from parents.
This church has disappointed me time after time.
I returned home, dated a 'sister' I met in my mission. She came to Argentina but asked me to come to the US instead. My parents couldn't assist to our wedding, half of her family couldn't assist either for different reasons.
I thought that living in Utah was the best for both of us. I wanted my wife to be happy so I decided to stay here but visit my old parents as often as I could. She agreed.
We rented an apartment on first avenue downtown SLC.
We attended several branches as guests (visitors) before we settled down.
Our branch met at Temple Sq. All white, all rich. The president's branch. (We lived right across him).
I never felt so looked up and down. Ignored, and rejected by people my entire life. We felt like we never fit with this crowd. Our faith started to shake. We received visitors that got too involved in our just married relationship I ended up asking them to leave.
During this time we suffered financially while I was learning a new language.
She had two jobs while I was waiting for my work permit. Once I got it I started working as well. She then joined the national guard and decided to continue her education. I agreed.
This was the beginning of the end. I started to investigate the church more deeply and learned of things I never heard before I got baptized. I can say the church has its own interests not disclosing the true origins and history especially what each president has done beginning with JS.
I wanted to vomit. I was so sick and emotionally broken. I asked her so many questions she didn't know either. Our relationship started to die for these and many other reasons. Long story short. We stopped going to church. We divorced. I decided to move to California and start a new life. I helped my parents until the day they died. I never visited them as I promised. Not even to their funerals. I wished they received the 'blessings' I was promised as a missionary, they never did. They lost their home, died poor and sick. I regret every moment since I joined this Church. It seems to me it is the biggest scam ever and it should be kicked out of every country they collect money from. Temples are just a tax scam to show 'they're using the money' they asked from their members. The recent financial issues with the law has put the cherry on top of my milk shake. How can they sleep at night? They live very comfortable lives 'working' for the church and getting paid while other's make NOTHING like missionaries. They collect so much money from countries. It should be feeding and clothing the needy. Temples won't do the job. They don't need them. They're not members. You need to be one and pay 10% to be able to go..(?). Only benefit a few.
I only hope the truth comes out soon to end this money making machine that uses the name of God in vain.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Big hugs!
My deepest condolences on the loss of your parents, your marriage, and your faith. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for you insight. I’m not Mormon but I have and uncle who converted some 50 years ago and raised his children Mormon. I’m so sorry that you ever came in contact with this religion. I’m very grateful our family were never Mormon. I totally think the older sister brings up some great points as to why she left. I’m so sorry about what’s happened to you because of this “church”. Hopefully you can heal from the deception.
Congratulation to the Porters for raising such strong minded, intelligent, compassionate daughters! (Not a surprise they couldn't find a place in the Church).Great series of interviews!
The greed makes me sick. There are people homeless and starving while churches hoard and break laws.
Love the trailer! As a never mormon listening to mormon stories during the last 2 years( that were really challenging to me), was soooo helpful and improved my mental health immensly. Although I didn't grow up in a religious context at all I could and can relate to so much that came up in the different stories!! What John says in the end is really true: the mormon story is the human story! Keep up this amazing work! I look forward to many more years filled with car drives and evening walks while listening to Mormon Stories!❤❤❤
Thanks to John, Margi (of the lovely arms fame), Rylee & JoCee for bringing us these 3 differing but interesting and illuminating episodes. These 2 siblings are courageous, eloquent, egalitarian fiesty, women. And a shout out to their equally tenacious & brave parents.
I'm not LDS. I'm a recovering Southern Baptist. I am married to a recovering LDS member who is the only one to "stray" out of 8 living siblings.
With that being said, I've listened as his faith continued to unravel and his journey to find answers.
Riley, at 1st, actually during a lot of the video, I was judgemental about how much you were talking. I WAS WRONG! I agree with Josie. Your story needs to be told and actually "heard" by so many. You both are remarkable young women. After watching my husband navigate his way through the positive and negative judgments and the effects on his life, you two ladies are tremendous rock stars! Thank you, thank you for sharing another perspective for me to further understand the path my husband is on. Also, thank you for teaching this "old" lady not to cast my own judgments before listening to the entire story.
Namaste!
These 2 sisters are outstanding and remarkable women. I admired them, they are pure hearted. Thanks for their parents for teaching their girls to be compassionate .❤ thanks for this podcast, John and more power to you!💕
I loved this interview ❤️ when Riley said that this church is the church of a treasure hunter, not the church of Jesus Christ 🎤 that hit so hard and so true.
Thank you all ❤️
Former financial analyst of an international Financial institution here... They knew! There is a level of knowledge specificity that you have for your investment portfolio. If there are any discrepancies in recording, the business unit financial managers are the first to pick that up and by law they have compliance officers. This happens with all companies but like Riley said, it's deeply unethical ... A church's mission and moral code should be governing their stride. The church is extractionist in nature. It leeches off people and then deliberately goes out of its way to duplicitously hoard what it has extracted out of people who have not consented. A church shouldn't have such murky waters
I get that this whole issue of Ensign Peak is extremely complex, AND... it's simple, perfectly simple: the church should hold itself to the same standards of honesty, charity, and morality, that it shames and browbeats its members into. Period.
May God bless you both. I have extensive experience as a return missionary, former bishop, counselor to a mission president, counselor to a stake president, and church employee. As someone who deeply cares about the well-being of others, I hope and pray that our Church leaders will display empathy towards all members, particularly those in Africa who live in abject poverty. It is disheartening that our church is not doing enough to aid those affected by the region's poor leadership and dire economic situation. Truly, church members deserve more from the church in terms of giving back economic support to them now that poverty and hunger are the order of the day in many parts of the world.
The church didn't sue David Nielsen because there are huge penalties for a corporation committing "retaliation" to whistleblowers. If you think $5 million is a penalty, just imagine if Nielsen brought a case of retaliation.
“I don’t think Christ would be happy of all of this amassed wealth, but I think Joseph Smith would be. He got the treasure he wanted.”
Damnnnnnn!
The church should spend at LEAST 10% on charitable services- like they ask of us
I would say 75%. Many religious organizations like LDS, are firmly against social services provided by the government. Churches receive exemptions from taxes to provide services aka welfare.
😂😂😂😂 lmfao true
Their parents should be applauded for their open dialogue with their daughters & raising remarkable women. The daughter’s should be applauded for being thoughtful, intelligent, moral, and courageous. Admirable all around.
Of course the systems of our society are ultimately at fault, but I 100% think the individuals perpetuating these systems and holding them up should be accountable for their actions as well
Agree! What if Nazi Germany generals and politicians were allowed to walk free because it was the system not the person.
Particularly when they personally benefit from the systems
Right, it's like when Trump said paying taxes was for the stupid.
The Moat surrounding Temple Square. What a brilliant analogy. It hurts to hear it, but it’s just so true.
Love these wonderful, talented women!!
Their parents raised them exceptionally well.❤❤
I can't get my head around the fact that missionaries are sent away to act on behalf of the church yet the church doesn't support them! This is so wrong! I was shocked and disgusted to learn that families had to support the missionaries when they were away.
Obviously the money changers had to keep grubby hands away from the 100 billion being laundered in shell companies.
Growing up in salt lake, when we would see people with signs asking for money, the justification I was told that we didn’t give to them was because we paid our tithing. Since we paid our tithing, the church does the best good for people in need with that money, and we didn’t know what that specific person would spend the dollars we gave them on. I don’t know where/who that came from but it was a common thing 20ish years ago. :(
I expected more. I think it was disappointing to a lot.
I remember President Monsen, in a conference talk answering the question about giving money to homeless outside of the Temple. His answer was a short, I don’t think it hurts. Bless his heart ❤️ my feelings exactly. I hand out water.
I grew up hearing the same thing. Complete trust and blind faith in the leaders. Thankfully I woke up and started to see things as they are. It's just shocking and so disappointing to be honest.
I can’t STAND how opulent the temples are. Who needs Italian marble, or African Wood?? And they point these things out during the open houses like it’s to be proud of. It makes me- a faith crisis-er that was a TBM at the time when we went through the Draper temple. It really makes me angry.
I will say, I LOVE all the emphasis that was made by both ladies, that all this wealth is made on the backs of the poor members. Growing up, my parents lived paycheck to paycheck, my Dad worked 2 jobs a lot of the time to help make ends meet and support us 5 kids and my Stay at home mom. My dad was always in some stake auditor or ward clerk position and IT MAKES ME FURIOUS that the only "free" time we had available to actually spend with him was on Sundays, but that was also taken by the church and his calling.
I never got to have that important bonding time with my father growing up, and now I will say, I don't have as close as a relationship with him as I would like, because now I have to work to support my family.
It hurts so much that the church treats their members like this. It ruins families, and for what!? A "rainy day fund" 😡🤬 F@$%& YOU LDS CHURCH! And SHAME ON YOU! I know these are strong feelings, but this money is exactly what broke my belief in the church- why I left-and I feel it has harmed me so much, that I just can't get over how awful and distraught it has made me feel. I have SO MUCH anger towards the church over their massive wealth. But thank you both for having courage to come on here and blatantly share these words for them to hopefully hear, because it needs to be said publicly on behalf of every member who has suffered and sacrificed so that the GREEDY A$$ TOP LEADERSHIP can live in comfort and retire comfortably- This is for the LDS Leadership 🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕
The people that work for the church do not receive adequate pay. This should be rectified. For the apostles traveling the world, their expenses should be paid. I understand your feelings I am sorry for what was lost.
@kaylaly7811…..I totally ‘get you’! And here are 4 more 🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼, to add to your 11, to make sure there is one for each of the 15 ‘leaders’!
Rylee, I hear your voice so strongly these few episodes, and I feel like I can sense a values difference between you and the rest of your family. I relate to you as a young woman with similar raisings and I hope you continue to seek your people - cuz they’re out there.
I would love to see the poorest members (at the very least) receive tithing refunds. 😢
All of us who were deceived want a refund.
Here, HERE!
Amazing that Rylee and JoCee are able to speak so freely, and even openly question their parents. I really admire their parents that they have done so well in establishing such a high level of communication with their well-spoken and intelligent daughters.
one thing is sad is when i was landscaping we did a job for the local church building and coordinated with their own stake grounds crew and coordinator whom were paid employees. later that year i heard all but it think the coordinator were losing their jobs and all the work that they did was going to be put on the members to volunteer and do. i think this was worldwide too, not just locally. so all the staff that maintained buildings and property were fired. then members had to volunteer to do that work for free. we were told that the church needed that money.
The reason why the amount, the sheer immensity of the money matters, is, I think, this:
Money isn’t self-existent. It isn’t a physical aspect of this world, the way that say, water, or air, or soil is. It isn’t a natural process that occurs, like the growth of plants or the exchange of oxygen in the body for waste products from the body. Money is a symbol of things that we humans do, in order to (when you boil it down to its essence) survive. Money is a symbol of our intentions and efforts to survive and thrive in this world, on this planet.
So here’s why that matters; the Ensign Peak fund is a symbol of the interactions that happened that created it, it isn’t a “thing”. It represents a million or more interactions that occurred on the planet, among humans and all the rest of the planet, to create this immense symbol (or collection of little symbols, if you want to look at it that way) that holds incredible potential. Those interactions occurred not in a vacuum, but on a planet that is in great disarray and distress, in which money is flowing more and more into the cupped hands of a few. The interactions that allow this to happen are also allowing terrible devastation of life through obscene imbalances of power. The few who are collecting the money are doing so by destroying the means of life and thriving for millions. The interactions that created this immense symbol, this behemoth of contained power and potential, for the most part happened without any gratitude, without, in other words sanctity or respect or real reciprocity. They happened in a spirit of competition, not co-operation. They happened without the spirit of Love.
What does this have to do with the amount of money in the Ensign Peak fund? Well, this amount of money makes the LDS church through Ensign Peak and it’s other wealth machines, a major player in the “room” where it is and will be decided, what happens as money flows around the world. It matters a great deal that it’s hundreds of billions, rather than a hundred million, because the real power in that much money is power to influence HOW money flows around the world. Will it continue to be through interactions that pit humans against each other and the planet on which we survive? Will it continue to funnel power into the hands of a few, while leaving the vast majority increasingly impoverished, while ravaging the poorest humanity of it’s natural gifts of water, soil, and air? Does the leadership of the LDS church embody the will required to bring respect, gratitude, reciprocity, humility, sincerity, grace, and true sacredness to the interactions of money that they now hold so much power over? Have we seen any evidence of this in their interactions with money up to now?
That, to me at least, is why the sheer immensity of hundreds of billions matters SO MUCH.
I could not be more proud of the insight and comments from these acknowledgedly privileged ladies. Literally brings tears to my eyes that they had the integrity and chose to speak for the meek and lowly everyday member and true Christlike servant. How cool that lil sis joined big sis to make this effort and impact of their voices so honorable and meaningful.❤ Thank God for Zion’s youth in latter days. 🙏💖❤️
Rylee and JoCee thank you for your courage in talking to Mormon Stories. I'm a never Mormon and admire your courage and wish you both every success for your future. You are both amazing young ladies who were bought up beautifully to have the ability to make decisions. I hope you and your parents will come together in some way with a mutual respect for each other's perspective.
Two of the most well spoken and intelligent ladies in the entire history of this podcast! ❤
Quick comment at 30:58 - I honestly doubt the mall is making money.
I took my family there back in early December 2017. We were back in Utah on home leave (we're a Foreign Service family).
There were practically no people at any of the stores back then. It's no surprise. Nothing was on sale. It was one of the most boring mall experiences I have ever had, and it made me long for the days of the old Crossroads Mall / ZCMI Center, where there were tons of strange things to find.
The sad truth is that people don't shop at malls these days. It's 2023. We shop online.
It would be nice if somebody could have, you know, foreseen that...
I just saw a photo on facebook. A mormon lady selling her sourdough bread for three surgeries for a friends baby. The temple in the background. I just thought, dam, is that church going to help. How many loaves will she need to make and sell to pay for that when the church could change everything for that baby.
It’s been a while since I’ve listened to a Mormon stories episode that I have to turn off from being so absolutely triggered by the disgusting display of human nature and self serving, self centered, elitist, lack of empathy that the church shows to the very people and members that built the institution. It is so infuriating to know that this entity demands purity from its members, but can’t even hold itself to a regular standard of just not being crappy and disgusting.
Smart ladies- I enjoyed all 3 parts. Thank for being brave & speaking out! I think both sisters are very intelligent. Rylee said some really great things; I especially loved the part about what Jesus would say if he saw what the church did with all the money.
1:11:34 as a musician, this hit home to me. I started working as a pianist for a Methodist church near me in January, and it felt amazing to be paid and valued for what I studied and is my career. Working for a church is a crucial source of income for many musicians, that is what Bach did! I have felt so underappreciated in the church in my callings, especially music.
I really commend these 2 intelligent and gifted women to use their voice for change. And a big shoutout to their parents for raising them to be critical thinkers. You are an amazing family that we should all take pointers from. I am not a Mormon but just interested in the dynamics within high demand religions and have followed Mormon stories for a few years now. This is by far the best episode yet. Well, all 3 of them actually! Thank you.
I loved the mention of the term "weaponization of passion." I feel like my own passion has been weaponized against me my entire life and most especially by the LDS church which uses people at a level that is harmful to many.
It was nice to hear that the hypocrisy of “The meek shall inherit the earth” concept so prevalent in Christ’s teachings and the mega affluence of the LDS church (due to unpaid church workers and missionaries, tithing, etc…) bother these privileged sisters. It is something that has also bothered me, not only with the LDS church but with the Catholic church, as well. It is a relief to see the moral and ethical compass of these two women. You are a beacon of light to the rest of your family and to everyone.
I’m upset on lots of levels about Temple Square and the ridiculous ultra lux mall!!
Temple Square should always be filled with members from around the globe, during General Conference. It’s always bothered me that my own privileged family can go anytime they like.. tickets and treats available to them - always- yet they would want to claim that Temple Square is already filled with these sweet poor souls, that sold property or an heirloom just to make their HAJJ. Their lifelong goal of attending conferences, mingling with that powerful spirit, being fed spiritually; Only to be met by Fendi, Tiffany, Coach, Hermes, ARE you KIDDING ME!!??
Does it get any more pretentious than that???
Dying on the inside with every reveal.😢
I do not agree it is the system not the person. That is an excuse allowing untold evil in the world in the name of the system. While it is the system too, it is the person. Mr. Poerter you should demonstrate your intellect and your morals and resign no matter what the church might do.
I echo all of the positive comments above. I'm overwhelmed and refreshed by these two amazing, intelligent, inspirational women. Your experiences and wisdom has been very validating for so many of us. I hope you go forward with your messages and do great things in the name of all post mormons, all hurt and wounded post mormons and all passionate post mormons. Thank you 100 billion times over!
From school 50ish years ago, on remembering the fate of Henry's wives: Divorced, Beheaded, Died, Divorced, Beheaded, Survived. 🤓
Another great and enlightening episode!!
I'm convinced that I know very little about all of these hidden agendas in dealing with the LDS church! I've learned so much here... Damn!
In the last 15 years, the LDS church in Canada has moved more than $1 billion across the border to Brigham Young universities in the U.S., an investigation by CBC's The Fifth Estate has found. Their tax-free status meant the move may have cost the Canadian treasury as much as $280 million.
Which the NHS, for one example, could have used.
Lock then up!
Rylee and JoCee you are the most beautiful, brilliant Human Beings ❤
You give me hope in humanity and your generation is full of courage and compassion and is being the change in the World!
Thank you for your Service.
I could write a book about my thoughts regarding this podcast, lol
You all did an amazing job.
Thank you
Time for tithing to be over and be able to count donating to real organizations in need. Animal shelters, food banks, housing and school for single moms. We are so arrogant to think if we pay tithing, that's it. Some can't give to both, most won't give to both. Now trying to get a month kickback for our investments. I actually lost a home (part of my mormon story) due to the fact i paid tithing rather than pay attorneys to keep my father from stealing my home of 23 years. Devestated my kids and myself, a single mom, divorced from a homosexual practicung ex high counselman and temple worker. The other side of the story that is NEVER talked about, when in mormon stories.
Single moms already get every free handout imaginable. Go get a job and earn your money like men do. Stop the single mom victim mentality. How about free legal representation for single dads who lost their kids due to a corrupt system that favors mothers who are a drain on the welfare system and deal drugs. Pay for your education like every man has. Student loans and hard work. Your dad doesn't owe you a house. No man does. You need to earn it. That's the way we do things in America. We work hard and treat men and women with equality. Not victim hood mentality. That's a woman's mentality. You wanted equality, now you have it. Welcome to manhood. Its tough and nobody cares about what you have lost or how you lost it or how you feel about it. You take it like a man and move on.
@@alternative.solutions3806 BS
@@alternative.solutions3806 you are projecting hardcore, whatever happened to you or your friends doesn't equate to what all single mom's are like.
Sorry what are you trying to say, I don't understand? What isn't talked about on mormon stories?
@@Hallahanify the side of the spouse who was traumatized, abused, etc by a spouse who got married and started a family with someone who was also living a homosexual lifestyle. Of course without us knowing. The hell we went through. A friend called it mind f...ery. What we heard from our leaders when trying to discern what in the crap was going on but told to trust our spouse. There is a ton of empathy for those who live alternatively but no one hears our story or they want us to be quiet because it's not en Vogue. My ex still had more priesthood authority even after being exed then I did, and yes, by the church. And not the story from the sweet lady who write "Goodbye, I love you". Although sweet it simply is not the "regular" mormon story of what is endured. The Nov 15 policy, or whatever, wasn't new, it just hadn't been said aloud. I was affected by that long before it was spoken. But not one single word from us. I would say we are the marginalized group. Both sides treat us like "sit down quietly and be quiet".
They are not sorry they did it- they’re sorry they got caught. It’s disgusting.
It’s important to note that when a destitute family is getting financial assistance from the church, including food orders from the Bishop’s Storehouse, they have to still pay tithing to qualify for the assistance!!! What’s the point there?! It’s wrong!
In America, if you are recognised by the government as disabled, you have to maintain a certain maximum amount in your bank accounts to be eligible for government assistance. I believe something similar has to be done with religious organisations within the US. To keep their tax exemption, they need to maintain a certain maximum in their accounts every year and ensure that the rest is distributed to the community. If they propose a longer term plan that would require acquiring finances over that amount, they can propose a temporary deadline before they go back to baseline (5 years to build a compound to relocate everyone to Salt Lake or something). And by the end of that year, they get back to baseline.
I think the suggestion of a few billion as a reflection of 2-3 year salary for staff is appropriate, as he said. This can be revisited when the community expands, but it should still be a % of expenses paid in a few years. Bare bones nest egg.
What admirable young women! Their parents should be amazingly proud of them!
THIS! 100x.
Thank you for coming on and speaking up and out. Well said ladies. Power on💗🌸
I'm a non-Mormon and I find these stories fascinating. Also not American and I'm not sure if it is the accent, but I kept hearing "Enzyme" Peak, instead of Ensign Peak :)
Me, too.
I'm a Texan and that's how I heard it too.
I have an uncle that worked in the areospace industry his whole life and he is now in his eighties. You do not work that long, in that industry, and not have worked on nuclear missile systems, bomber systems, etc. etc. etc. Much like my uncle, I assume their father does not connect the challenging and interesting work that he does in the world of high finance, and the effects of that work on the world. I know my uncle looked at his work as not endangering the world with its ultimate destruction, but simply as a long string of challenging puzzles to solve. His personal measure of success was the soling of those puzzle, recognition from his employers for solving those puzzles and his personal financial success that enabled him to give his family a comfortable life. Meanwhile, the systems he created live on in the world destroying missile systems, dotted around the continental US, waiting for their chance to be fired upon an enemy and destroying not only that enemy but the people they were built to "protect".
I really appreciated the honesty of these sisters. I came away from their interview even more furious about separation of church and state/church tax exemp status than I already was. This is an insane level of influence and access. Israel? Jared Kushner?
*exempt
Can't wait to watch this episode!
This is the most important follow the money Mormon story because it includes all the SEC and whistleblower info and also an insider POV. Should be a documentary! Too bad cameras didn’t follow on the yacht in Israel etc.
Love the reference to the mall being the Great and Spacious Building. Spot on.
Great episode! Thank you, Porter sisters, for speaking out.
Thanks to the guests and John for a wonderful 3 part series, less time that I watch TV. Informative and smart podcast, great guests. I have especially enjoyed this series. Watching them several times. Great work John your wife and those that work with you. I am a member of the church and did not believe what I heard when the mall was being restructured and I have a very out of the box perspective. My hope is that as you all mentioned, much good can be done with the great wealth of the church. Also that educated well intentioned workers of the church will be rightly paid for their jobs. That monies may help poor countries with access to water. What a wonderful idea that is.
I would like to opine that the idea that education can eradicate poverty is simplistic. Before you can receive education you have to have appropriate nutrition, water, health care, nurture, shelter and clothing. Also, many education "opportunities" for the poor (including the church's programs) only include opportunities that result in blue and white collar jobs that don't result in any personal authority or nurture of true intellect. Instead they only result in jobs that have to obey authorities and authoritarian systems or lose their jobs.
Great intro !
Thank you John and Team ❤
In regard to JoCee's question on behalf of her dad about what is the $$ threshold where it starts to become a problem.
It isn't a difficult question at all. The answer is whatever amount the church decided was a problem and inspired them to take the path they did.
It doesn't matter whether it was $100 million or $200 billion.
I agree, it's more about what they do (or more importantly DON'T do) with the money that I think is a problem. My sister was just going above and beyond to try to be "fair"
10:48 Growing up as a PK (pastors’ kid) I related to this series so much. My childhood church friends and I use the phrase “You made us like this!” when referring to the parenting that we had (progressive, encouraging questions & exploration, etc) when we push back against the ways that we disagree with the church or how things are done. Jocee and Rylee’s parents made them like this as well (not to take credit away from Jocee & Rylee), but I suspect that despite the hurt and discomfort their parents must be proud of who these two sisters have become! ❤❤❤
Secret Combinations = Mormonism in action. 😢
When I left the church I made a list. Call me when you get here.. I’d be in!
The church should fund refugee programs and food programs and education programs and vaccine programs and clean water programs until they’ve spent so much money they have to build temples out of cinder block.
Let’s make homeless shelters in our gyms and food pantries in our kitchens.
Let’s teach English as a second language all week long in the high council conference room.
Let’s set up free trauma counseling in the classrooms.
Let’s give away free furniture for refugees on the stage.
Let’s run financial counseling out of the bishop's office.
Have missionaries cook food and clean at orphanages around the world so the workers have time and energy to connect with the kids.
Let’s dig wells everywhere they are needed. 80,000 missionaries could knock out a world of good and I bet even more would sign up if they knew it was for real service.
Let’s have every ward pick one family who could take on fosters kids or adopt an available foster kid and then help them with all the support they need. We could solve the problem of unattached kids in mere months.
Let’s teach men homemaking skills and lessons ad-nauseum about consent and their own responsibility. Teach them how to care and nurture, support and invest in women and children. Do it over and over again until they roll their eyes at the very mention.
Let’s give women decision making jobs - the church would be kinder and gentler with empowered women.
Let’s hire immigrants at every ranch and orchard we own and pay them living wages.
Let’s set up free schools in needy places and have missionaries staff them.
Or, stop charging money to get into Heaven altogether and let people donate how they want.
I found God and Christ and built a connection with them through the church while on my mission. But it’s ironic because the very thing that helped me find that relationship does not align with what I learned.
I will always be grateful for the LDS church but it’s not what I thought It was.
Quite a frank episode by my estimation. I dump my trash in LDS dumpsters hoping to get confronted about the “$500 no dumping” sign. I would love to bring up my balance… tithes and offerings, my mission, emotional stress,,,,,
I reckon we can just settle on the dumping rights and both go our separate ways. :)
Something that should be mentioned is the church was nearly bankrupt in the 80's. Human beings run the church as well as older human beings who rember in their and even my lifetime the church was broke. Its tough to get out of poverty and if you do i imagine hoarding money is perhaps a natural human reaction. Im no longer a mormon so i have nothing to gain by my statement. I agree 10% tithes if not mandatory should be able to go to any charity or even needy families.
The amount of money is absolutely a critical part of the problem here. In my opinion the Church should aim to have savings and assets enough to meet their immediate financial obligations. Anything past that is starting to hoard wealth, and the more you hoard that you don't need or have a beneficial use for is morally wrong. I'm not even saying they need to spend and give away all of that money, but it could certainly be used to indefinitely fund real charity work on a massive scale.
It's not very prophetic to not foresee that investing massive amounts of money would lead to even more massive growth.
The Bishop's Storehouse is essentially a church sponsored food bank. It is not however limited just to members of the church. Bishops can authorize people to receive help from the storehouse regardless of their religion or standing in the church. That said the Church doesn't lay out any hard rules for how Bishops can or should do any of that and as a result most Bishops will only help active members of the church. This is an ongoing problem in Utah, where the church has actively worked to get the state to use less money for welfare because the church is doing so much of that work. The downside of that is that when people go to the state asking for welfare assistance the first thing they are often told is go talk to a Mormon Bishop, even when they aren't members.
Yeah, it's messed up.
Rylee and Jocee I applaud you for having the courage to step out and speak against the actions of some within your organization and the Mormon church withholding or hoarding money for themselves. The truth is that Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword and one's greatest enemies ultimately end up being those of their own household. You have embraced the truth of Jesus Christ and my hope is that He will embrace you for taking steps toward him. Please understand that Jesus also acknowledged tithing as a biblical commandment established in the Old Testament. It is obedience unto God more than unto the Mormon Church. Even though some misuse and misallocate its funds your obedience to this commandment blesses you. If you do not follow it you become subject to theft from the enemy . I have had moments in my life where I have seen people fail to pay their tithes and something breaks down or your health suffers or you end up losing it anyways to thieves of some form. The best way to use your tithes is simply giving it and let God judge those who do not use it right. Maybe my words are harsh but I promise you that you will feel better giving it to an organization that can better use it. A church that better serves the poor better. There are also honest Mormons who depend on the livelihood of your hard work. It is crazy how one sect of Christianity has more wealth than some foreign countries. It's all God's. When we die and when Jesus returns to claim the Earth it all will be worthless and he will establish a new kingdom under new wealth standards. May the Lord Jesus guide your paths to a better life. Much love and support.
About 1:21:00 - The last time Scientology sued anyone was in, like, 2012. It was Debby Cook and it backfired spectacularly. What Scientology DOES do is 'fair gaming' people which basically is harass people endlessly.
Covid happened shortly after the ensign leak and i hoped the church was going to do something amazing with all that money. Honestly if they had of member numbers would have doubled( I would have proudly gone back) I was so disappointed. Wasn't just the church though. Its humanity. Mormons are mostly good people and i believe the leaders are as well. People like me growing up finding out things that we were told were lies were true had our hearts crushed. I mean i learned on Southpark about the rock and the hat.
1. I have a question about how these Ensign Peak employees could be complicit: How many of them had their Second Anointing?
2. And a statement about "is it the amount of money?": If one received $1b at the beginning of the USA in 1776, and spent $10,000.00 per day every day since 1776... they'd still have money left. So spending money to help people wouldn't hurt the church at all. If they spent 10% of their gain every year, they'd be giving away $1b/year, at the least.
3. How much Ensign Peak money goes to politicians who lie to get church favored laws passed?
Ex-mos and outsiders have said it for years: The morg is nothing but a huge real estate conglomerate masquerading as a church. Summed up in 2 words: GREEDY & EXPLOITATIVE.
I’m just so outraged and disgusted by the amount of money those people are hoarding they steal the money and keep the money. They don’t share any of that with the members and make them scrape together and scrounge for things like art supplies and yet these guys are living the high life, owning 1% of Florida and don’t give any of that money back to the members at all!?! It’s so gross. I wish there was a way to destroy the church and give it all back to the members.
It’s a real disgusting thing to hear just how much they don’t care and laugh off what they are doing to people and how they are manipulating people. It’s quite gross.
Thank you, again. Watching from Alaska.
So articulate.
Hello !
1 below in chugiak this morning.
@@PhillipWulff-uj8ir 👍
Amazing episode! Wow, thank you all for such insightful and constructive systemic critique. The clarity is so much needed!
Thank you for your comment :)
BAD people will do BAD things. GOOD people will do GOOD things. BUT, to get good people to do BAD THINGS...THAT takes *RELIGION!*
Mormon or no, the thing here is … the rich enjoy the richness; the privileged enjoy the privilege; the exclusive enjoy the exclusivity… those with offices in the ivory tower are not giving up their pristine views any time soon. It’s like some dystopian sci fi movie where those with means build their castles in the clouds so they don’t have to see the dirty, grim streets below. Where is there a solution when so much inequality exists generally in our society & for the “lucky@ few, they never have to touch skin with the normies out there???
I second Rylee's complaint about how many wives Henry VIII's had beheaded. I got hung up on it and had to listen to the next 5 minutes of the podcast again.
Anyway, what a great Mormon story! Thank you ladies for your openness.
Well done.
Blessings.
1:16:00 is on-point.
I'm perplexed as to why they continue to keep all their finances secret given this point.
Regarding the statement about, we wouldn't want other people to tell us what to do with our money, why is it alright then for the Church to tell its members what they have to do with theirs. I also thought that Rylee's and JoCee's comments on that were insightful.
Amazon is not a religion. That's a significant difference.
1:41:50 That is a frightfully accurate assessment.
earlier i wrote my disputation about systems not people, but i wanted to let john d. and all of the guests i've heard know how much they have helpled me with my catholic and culture of the south (texas) ongoing deconstruction. wow, so hard and heartbreaking to process the lies and ugliness to try to find a way to the other side. thank you for your content.
“ The church of the treasure hunter” of the latter days 😢
1:27:50 . No, Jon… I believe that was uncle Ben, who taught us that. Ha ha, just playing! But everyone including the church, and Stan Lee know that uncle Ben & C.S. Lewis, were Mormons anyway so it’s chill. 🤣🤣 great interview!! Love all your stuff!! Thanks again!!
"We don't take our talents and put them in a ditch, we go forth into the world and do good with them" I hadn't heard that particular quote re Mormon belief before but I like it when taken for its pure meaning. Although I think the point here today is that doing good is doing good for the church not even necessarily church members or the world.
Great conversation. Wonderful guests. Well spoken. Balanced conversation. Awesome episode.
Great episode! Keep em coming.
“I cannot accept ur canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men, with the favorable assumption that they do no wrong. If there is any presumption, it is the other way against holders of power….Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely!!!!” Lord Action
thank you this was a very interesting discussion and thank you to all the Porter family
I'm pretty sure the Church donated the $1B in humanitarian contributions AFTER the news of it's wealth became public. Before that the best estimates of the yearly giving was far under the $1B amount. An earlier estimate was something like $1B over the entire 20 year time period that EP was growing so large. The Widows Mite peeps might have more clarity on this but it looks like this recent generosity was driven by embarrassing revelations about Church wealth.
That's my understanding too.
With money like this, there should be no homeless, no hunger that would have been Jesus' way.!!
Another shout out to your parents for raiding such bright and courageous daughters!
There were a couple church audits that raised flags that the SEC would have issues with the way the church was filing the paperwork.
Check out how the SEC handled (didn't) Madoff until they couldn't avoid it. It was scandalous.
Church audits? I thought it was the other way around. People at ensign peak told the church or the first presidency that they needed to comply with the law, the church leadership told them to break the law.
What does it mean to sustain the leadership of the church as prophet, seers, and revelators (Article of Faith #6) when that same leadership does not honor and sustain the law of the land (Article of Faith #12)?
1:37:08
Amen !!!!