A Rapier that Cuts Better than a Two-handed Greatsword? LK Chen Saxony German Military Rapier Review
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- Опубликовано: 30 дек 2023
- Can rapiers cut? With some rare exceptions, they can cut to certain extents. Can a rapier cut potentially better than a two-handed greatsword/zweihander/montante? Most can't, but this Saxony rapier by LK Chen can. Even though carrying the long slender blade and swept-hilt associated with the images of rapiers, its 40" blade isn't typical in the blade width--coming in at 36mm at the base (60-100% boarder than the stereotypical thrust-focused rapiers), with a hollow ground diamond cross section. It also has the correct base thickness (7.6mm) and distal tapering (from 7.6mm at the base down to 4.1mm at midpoint and 2.2mm near the tip).
Properly made rapiers like this are exceedingly are on the reproduction market. The majority are SCA-rated floppers that can be bent into a C-curl with minimal force, which make them unable to do any meaningful cut OR thrust, I showed a Windlass Christus Imperat rapier which starts at a laughable 4.7mm and tapers to 4mm--completely wrong mass distribution to handle like a telephone pole and flops like a noodle (sorry, Windlass, retire your old models, and pay the experts like Matt Easton to supply you with the correct stats and for proper designs).
The LK Chen Saxony rapier (or rather a Renaissance military sword, or long-bladed sidesword) has the scientific mass distribution thanks to the profile and distal taper plus the cross section, so that at the foible of the blade, it only carries less than 15% of the mass of the base. The result is an extremely nimble and precise sword for thrusts and wrist-powered rapier snap cuts. Experts and reviewers such as @scholagladiatoria @Skallagrim and @UnsheathedSwordReviews has told us as much, and my extensive test cutting on targets of different toughness confirms that. But the true potential unleashed by cuts with bigger wind-up after parrying truly shocked me.
I tested cuts on a 15% ballistic gelatin human thigh analog with a wooden dowel. The target has a 18" circumference, basically equals to a triple tatami-mat roll, but even more resistant. The Saxony rapier easily cut through the target time and again, especially zipped through the wooden dowel like a laser. Now I have tested the Albion Maximilian--a late 15th century Germanic two-handed sword and a renowned cutting sword when properly sharpened--on a ballistic gel thigh analog that's 20% thicker, and it could only cut 80% through, while the wooden dowel suffered some tearing.
This proves that this cut-and-thrust rapier by LK Chen cuts definitively better than the renowned Albion Maximilian, without a doubt. These cuts I used are not typical rapier cuts, but considering this was modeled after a military rapier original housed at Metropolitan Museum, you can probably launch these big cuts from horseback, or as a riposte after a successful parry. The potentially is there, and you have to ask how come a one-handed sword famed to be more about thrusting can cut this well. I would contribute it to the amazing hollow ground edge geometry, the proper rigidity, the extreme terminal tip velocity of this long blade, and the ease to reach it due to the mass distribution. Note that it comes in at 2.7 lbs (1280 grams) with a 40" blade and 46.5" overall length. The blade is 1" shorter than the two-handed Maximilian but the overall weight is only half as much. Again I'm not talking about the impact of swings, just the raw damage to large chunk of organic material.
It's not a surprise that it penetrates deeply with its thrusts. You feel a strong connection with the point of the blade even though the tip is 40" (over a meter) away from your hand. When I compare it to my Albion Kingmaker--a mid-15th century arming sword with a 32" type XVIII blade, they handle similarly, to my surprise.
The swept-hilt, the grooved pommel and the writhen grip with steel wire wrap and turks head knot are closely modelled after the original Saxony sword at the Met, and they are well implemented, and well shaped. My only gripe is the surface on the pommel and especially the swept-hilt. They are sand-blasted, which does not emulate the antiqued look on surviving examples at all, especially with the dull grey color of the stainless steel. There are a few spots of casting not cleaned off properly, but this is probably due to the sword being the first prototype, as subsequent batches shipped seem to have been fixed. I recommend well-polished mild steel fittings with a blackened finish on future batches. It's only due to this minor issue that I cannot give it a 10 out of 10, yet still this without a doubt remains my top recommended model of 2023!
lkchensword.com/saxony-german...
17th century German music background - Robert Hill. / @roberthillearlymusic
Review by @UnsheathedSwordReviews
• LK Chen Saxony German ...
Cutting comparison to a saber @Skallagrim
• On a Bad Day a #Rapier...
Matt Easton: • What is a Military Rap... 
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What I always imagined a Barsoomian longsword to look like. Thanks for the review 🎉
Interesting interpretation of the Barsoomian long-sword. Glad that you like the video!
YES! When I read 'A Princess Of Mars' I have always tried to imagine what the longsword looked like that John Carter wields on Barsoom. The picture on the front of the book just never seemed to satisfy me. And it's only ever described in the book as a "longsword". The Saxony Rapier in this video definitely looks like it could be a proper Barsoomian longsword!
Some Renaissance treatises do call rapiers "long swords" because they have longer blades than sideswords or "cut-and-thrust swords".
Hopefully L.K. Chen makes one with a flamberge blade. Great vid 👍
I hope so too.
That's pretty spectacular. I always thought a properly constructed rapier could cut, but those results are extraordinary. You can't really do those tests on an original.
Absolutely true. It shows the value of a precisely reconstructed sword’s empirical value.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold LK Chen is doing a service to history itself as well as modern sword owners. Of course an experienced cutter like yourself can bring it to life. Thanks for posting the video. I'm from New Zealand there are not many blades in museums, however looking at period manuscripts and pictures of originals many rapiers suggested good cutting ability. I would expect some decent slicing, but the ballistic gel and dowel test exceeded all expectations.
Excellent presentation.
Thank you kindly!
Gorgeous thumbnail.
Thank you and Happy New Year!
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold same to you, Shishou.
Next thrust, right through the ♥️, although you gave plenty examples of the rapier cutting effectively.
Indeed. It's rather precise with its thrusts.
In Spain we have two kinds of rapier. The civilian ones are very thrusting centered, with slim blades and almost not cutting capacity or none at all. In other hand, the military rapiers are quite beefy and cut pretty well. The blade in this ones is quite similar to the average medieval sidesword, but longer. Although both could be used in both contexts (civilian and military), it's a general classification.
Yes, indeed.
Many people confuse the civillian dueling rapiers with the military rapiers which definitely cut very well.
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367 that is true.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold i think people also miss context in a pot of old weapons or "weapon like objects" many long surviving rapier are also just dress and status items and although can be lethal weapons were probably never intended to be used as such., they were costume peices, status symbols and shows of wealth. Just like many indonesian kris could be used as a weapon but nobody planned them to be.. While others are clearly weapons forst and status peices secondly.
There is old european swords with handles made entirely from blued cut steel or agate or crystal or semiprecious stone. Its highly unlikely the owner ever planned to use such an item.
Ive seen in person very long thin arming swords 4mm thic blades over 100cm-110cm long.. The blades show a slight droop as they are floppy.. These are not weapons.. They are costune peices of the era. In art you can see them and when you see the scabvards these came with you realise they are costume items, yes a blow from it would kill you but the owner never planned to wear such a sword in a situation where he would use it. Its design is to be a solng as possible and sit parallel to the owners body. The sheath has hangars to fasten it pointing straight down for this reason and it is impossible to draw the sword. It was for ceremonies where a sword should be worn. The scabbards on these swords were bright colours and ornate as were handles mamy times. Mamy good surviving arming swords are of this tyle.. Some side swords too.
Some ove the vcivillian rapires cant be easily drawn either due to fashion. They were like pointy shoes or big hats, a device to show your wealth and power and if agred upon to duel with.. Like later more conservative small swords. While the military rapiers were weapons, something to take for self defence when travelling or a weapon of a solider. Its just today- at least in english speaking countries the military rapiers are less common. While i have observed in Switzerland, austria and scandinavian in collections and in antique shops the military rapier is far far more common and can still be purchased at reasonable prices, as they continued to be popular long after the civillian rapier fell out of use in those countries.
We forget that not all weapons were always intended to be taken seriously all the time.
People still muse over the function of many african swords or melinesian and micronesian clubs but many were just that.. Ststus items and the ones that were not generally tend to be more as you'd expect. Humans like fancy things but in the moder era we forge people have always been like this and always will be. Look at all the crazy impractical bazaar knives we buy and collect.. Just like medieval and renessence people and weird swords and weapons.
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367 Absolutely true. That's what I have been saying all along. Most people misjudged actual objects in real world from their experience handling incorrectly made replicas.
I just told Mike yesterday at Mattamatics that i wanted rhis sword! What an efficient weapon
Geeat review, Kane!! Really excellent!!
Excellent choice. I’m glad to confirm the sword is worth every penny that one pays.
Excellent it's finally out.
Exceptional video Kane, gonna ask Shad if he can give ya a shout out when I send my rapier to him, maybe the Balaur Arms Alexandria review too since folks seemed to like his review of it.
Happy New Year, hope you and the missus have an awesome time, and may 2024 bring you much success.
~Cheers 🍻
Cheers! Thank you for the kind words and would love to see Shad's take on this sword. I know what he would think already, actually, hah. May you have a great year ahead of you!
Excellent peice of kit, makes me regret not jumping on it when nate first offered lol. Kinda scary how much damage such an elegant piece of steel can do.
Indeed, brother. It totally outperformed everybody's high expectations!
You are a sword cutting god! I don't know if others can cut a leg off with this rapier like you did. But very detailed explanations on what happened, people with average IQ really need a thorough breakdown to comprehend it.
Hahaha, you are too kind. It's still the sword's merit. While not everybody necessarily will achieve the same results, the characteristics of the sword has the biggest contribution obviously.
Great vid and review. Love your enthusiasm for this sword. Comparing to the Windlass and measurements of historical examples gave a lot of depth to make this understandable even with no prior knowledge of how these are supposed to be. Also much enjoyed the cutting portions. 5 star review, man. Took a few sittings to get through the entire presentation, though was never boring
Thank you so much for the appreciation. I didn't expect this review to be this long, initially I was expecting to wrap it up within 30 minutes, but then I found there was so much to talk about, even though I didn't include everything I had this mind about this sword. I tried to make a compelling case for the claim that this sword cuts better than a properly-made two-handed sword and thrust better than some of the thrust-centric rapiers that are not correctly designed by some other modern makers.
Happy New Year to you, and hope to see more cutting tests from you!
Would consider it a success at demonstrating the cutting ability compared to a 2-handed sword! I'm considering making a review of the Cloudhammer Han Jian, which shares some fittings with the LK Chen models, and have similar sentiments there as it punches well above its weight. A well executed single-handed sword can be surprisingly capable indeed. @@FortuneFavoursTheBold
@@KF1 Oh LK Chen and Cloudhammer's Han jian (I don't know whether it's co-incidents or not, these two share a lot of offerings, toss Art of Fire and Iron in there as well) and similar design philosophies) share a lot of similar characteristics with the blade of this rapier. Diamond cross section, relative slender blade with some good profile taper and a lot of distal taper, good thrusting tip but not needle points like the ones on type XVa swords. They are more slender than many European swords, nevertheless they can cut extremely well with the extreme ease of speed generation and a very high terminal velocity. Looking forward to your review of it!!
Happy new year Kane. How does this cut compared to the Ribaldo?
Happy new year to you, Russel! It definitely cuts better than the Ribaldo, which is an amazing cutter in its own right. The blade on this one is longer, more rigid, and the point of balance makes it easier to control. Granted overall it’s heavier, and it takes a bit more to swing even though it’s easier to generate speed with this rapier.
Happy New Year, Kane! We look forward to working with you again this year.
Thanks and the same to you! Happy new year!
Terrific video, Ken. Really well done. Tremendous cuts with the data and history to back it up. Keep them coming, my man!
P.S. Any interest in doing the two-handed Irish Leaf Blade sword from Valiant Armory next? Your previous VA leaf blade video was exceptional. Cheers.
Thank you very much. Yeah I love the Irish Ring-Pommel Leaf Blade sword but unfortunately I am currently out of budget to pick one up, just went on a spree to acquire the Albion Viceroy, the Chevalier and the Jarl recently. Maybe some time down the line. Of course if someone can send me a review loan sample for that one, I’ll review it sooner.
Another benchmark of an exalted kind of sword. Thank you for sharing all of your expertise and the experimentation done on swords.
Thank you very much for the kind words!
Good review. That poor rapier got bent into a C shows us how good of a sword the one you are reviewing is.
Yeah, clearly. I didn't want to step on that Windlass rapier too much, but it does give viewers a clearer picture of the contrast between the LK Chen Saxony and the commonly found bad rapiers found on today's market.
Great review as always! It was very impressive to see what that sword did to those targets.
Thank you very much! Its cutting capability even shocked me. I thought it was going to do well for a single-handed sword--didn't expect it to do better than the Albion Maximilian at all. Now you can tell that commenter on your channel that this rapier can take any limb, including going through a thigh cleanly.
Thank you for the data and history!
Glad that you enjoy it!
One funny thing about saxony.....how they beat the prussian in war by simply not engaging their opponent. They knew couldnt beat the prussian in battle so they withdraw but not as expected to saxony but into prussia. Which forced prussia to divide their forces to pursue them, the prussian battle force engaged austria and russia over and over again, waiting that the other prussian forces will come to suport, while this force was running after the saxons. The saxons meanwhile plundered on the way all the armor manufactory on the way. In desperate gamble to force the saxon to engage him he sent the cavalry to attack on their own, which where completely destroyed. Now the pursuing army has no cavalry at all, still way up larger then the saxon army who went deeper and deeper into prussian territory. While the prussian army ran low of ammunition since the saxons seized it and up armoured themself. Despite winning all the battles against their main foes they were forced to make peace, since their armies were exhausted. All war parties were forced to restorate the kingdom of saxony otherwise the now pristine saxon exile army would wage war on their own against prussia which army has now no ammunitions, no new guns, no new cannons.........this type of warfare is a prime example of a successful fabian war strategy.
Interesting story from history!
Happy New Year, Kane! Another great review.
Happy new year! Thank you very much for watching!
Looks a lot like the sword in Nicoletto Giganti's Scola, overo teatro with three rings. I see you reference a few graphs from the book.
I did sample some illustrations from Giganti's treatise.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold I could see those.
It gives me a new respect for the rapier! This sword is gorgeous and your presentation is very well done.
Thank you!
I always knew a well-made rapier/military rapier/sidesword can cut and cut quite well...but even I was astounded by what you and this amazing reproduction German rapier accomplished. Mind = BLOWN 🤯
Indeed. LK Chen offers some of the most amazing rapier reproductions. They have released three very different models so far.
This is one of Kane's best review videos, and the best review of the Windlass's Christus Imperat Rapier on the internet. No, I haven't gone insane. While I know the Christus Imperat Rapier is based on a historical piece, I was looking to buy this rapier, modify it, and fix a lot of design issues. I want to remove the exaggerated pin block (on a threaded pommel); cut the base of the pommel and link directly the ball portion to the grip (a shorter grip translates to less inertia to rotations and this can be done since the pommel shape is ergonomic); sand the sweeps and grind the port plate to reduce weight and do the same to the quillon block to facilitate the grip; straighten the knuckle bow and adjust it so a new D shape bow would terminate perpendicular to the new position of the pommel; sharpen the last two-thirds of the blade as a way to reduce weight and to have a sharp sword. Now, I don't know if the fittings are made from mild steel, such as to allow me to bend the knuckle bow, or if they are made from a cast metal that would break under mechanical manipulation. But after watching Kane's comparison (which is why I'm calling this a low-key Christus Imperat Rapier review), I have the feeling that even if I make my modification, I would still be disappointed due to the blade. Basically, if the blade is bad, the rest doesn't matter.
The Saxony rapier is the opposite in a way. LK Chen makes good blades, and I love the look of a broad-blade rapier. LK Chen did use a historical piece as a base (photo on his website). And the three-ring rapier type is one of my favourites. But I hate that he used this particular model. I hate the pommel. It's a type of pommel that only has the role to balance the sword, with no role in the control of the sword (as in informing the grip, when you feel the pommel at the base of your palm). I hate the overly long grip, which has to be as such because of the pommel that needs to be way back due to its shape, or risks impeding your grip and handling. The inner sweeps extend outwards too much, and the three rings also seem a bit too large (this is on LK Chen). And because I have so many problems with the type of fittings, which were a historical choice (a bad one; remember, most people who carried a rapier in those times didn't know how to use one), I am happy that the surface finish was so bad. That grey cast finish was the excuse I gave myself not to buy this rapier. Because that blade, man that blade just looks like perfection. I want a Capo Ferro rapier from LK Chen so badly, but looking at the other rapiers he has lined up, I think he still needs to figure out the hilts (not just the casting finish, but also the shape and the proportion of individual parts).
I think you are bang on about not only the part that the Christus Imperat rapier would be essentially a bad sword AND a bad project sword even if you are willing to do all the work (because the blade is vastly ahistorical and the hilt fittings are also quite far from period examples as it is not a replica of any particular example), but also that it is indeed my intention to low key review it perhaps not in full capacity although I think in this review, I already went way further than any other review of this Windlass rapier and all Windlass rapiers in general (bar the rapier in the second batch of the Royal Armouries Collection--if Matt Easton and Royal Armouries are not mad enough to withdraw the contract altogether after that backstabbing attempt pulled by Windlass--there's a story there).
As of the Saxony rapier, I don't think the grip is too long. The grip itself is only 4.1" or 10.4 cm long, which is quite common for cut-and-thrust sword of this period, and you can probably argue that this is indeed one of those cut-and-thrust swords with a long blade, rather than the most typical thrust-centric rapier. Spanish cup-hilt rapiers famously have short grips as the user is supposed to fit one or even two fingers into the cup above the crossguard. This Saxony one, wasn't used like that. I feel that it's most comfortable with the most conventional grip as an arming sword, or with one finger inside the ring above the cross. The grip might look a bit longer than it is due to the stalk at the base of the pommel, but in reality it is as long as it needs to be, otherwise you might run into trouble if you use the conventional grip without any finger above the crossguard.
The finger rings are indeed large but I think it is based on the original, and yes I went to the Met online collection but couldn't find any photo of it, even though LK Chen does possess photos of it. It is likely one of the examples not taken photos of yet by the museum. If you go over the online collection, there are more than half of them that haven't been photographed.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold I remember seeing photos of the antique "Christus Imperat" rapier on SBG Forums. The reproduction of the fittings looks fine, with the bars being a tiny bit thicker on the modern version (probably due to casting limitations; same problem LK Chen has with his 7 ring rapier in my opinion, the extra thickness adding some grams and changing a bit the aesthetics in a subtle way). Others have made plenty of presentation type reviews for it (including the Kult of Athena doing a test cut where only one in a total of four cuts managed to scrape the tatami; and you can hear the sound of rattling parts 😑). What you did, and that was necessary, was adding context for it. The bade is bad because of this, look at it in action, now look at a proper blade. 👍
The only reason I'm even having this conversation is that I saw it being sold for cheap by a store that fails to restock a buckler I paid for, so I was thinking to call it quits and change the order to this rapier. But I am sure I'll regret it and just end up with a piece to store in a box next to my earlier collection mistakes.
The so called duke-elector rapier in the second RA batch is, in period, a mass-produced rapier. Most sword museums in the US and Europe have an antique version of it. So, echoing the discussion about IP you had elsewhere, everyone can make a version of a version of it. It's like the Munich Town Guard, but for long-bladed rapiers. It's not my favourite style, but yea, at least is well documented compared to only personal photos of the original surfacing out.
On the grip size, the jury is out, and left the building (I am still learning and experimenting myself on this; so maybe why I care more than the average). It depends a lot on the grip style. But don't think just Spanish and La Verdadera Destreza fencing style had smaller grips. I see people that do Italian Capo Ferro rapier (so more cut centric than Destreza; more off the centre line than on it like with a cup rapier) preferring a small grip with a (slightly flatter or more ergonomic) pommel nesting at the base of the palm. So a grip of only 7 cm is already sufficient for one finger over the guard grip, and I would accept 8 cm for flexibility of grips. For two fingers over the guard, a 6 cm grip is preferred, but you have to commit to that use. In the Thibault rapier style (for the Thibault grip), a longer grip with a slender and elongated olive pommel is preferred, and I see this in antique (Dutch and English) transitional rapiers before the small sword started to be popularised. The 10 cm long grips is a German thing. I see it on some German rapiers, and I think that's because they did not know how to use a rapier properly (shade, shade 😏), and longer grips allow for large fancy pommels rather than worry about incorporating the pommel in the grip of the rapier. I think modern manufactures prefer this since most people will not learn how to incorporate the pommels in guiding a cut, and they will complain that the grip is not big enough for their large hands (so for 1 of me wanting a smaller grip, there are 100 people wanting a larger one, easy to see what the manufacturer will do).
And I know this is subjective, but my biggest complaint is that there are simpler, archetypal in a way, versions of rapiers that meet my objections while they would have a broad appeal. Why not release a good reproduction of those first? Then go for stranger pommels and hilts and the like. Last, if I end up being too negative on LK Chen, it is because his blades are so good, and I want them on the sword styles I like.
Great review! I might have to get one. I think Skal was right when he said later period swords were a step back, these 16th and 17th century blades truly were the apex of sword design
Definitely true. And I was informed by LK Chen that the hilt furniture is now all mirror polished instead of having that san-blasted matte finish. So the only criticism I had towards this sword is now invalid. 100% recommended!
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold That's amazing. LK Chen really is a responsive maker
That is a beautiful rapier with some mesmerizing scenery.
Thank you!
LK Chen makes phenomenal swords from all the cultures they try.
Indeed!
The thumbnail made me think this video was about a videogame. The way the hand is holding the rapier in front of the camera looks like a first person game and the colors look so vibrant it doesnt look real.
Thanks. That’s like every sunset at my house if it’s sunny at dusk. Interestingly enough, I am also a video game designer, you can see some screenshots of my video game just like that on our website linked in my channel bio.
Excellent choice of the ballistic gel as a cutting medium. I can't think of a better modern choice. I have a rapier made by Arms & Armor that I had them mount with a longer than standard blade. It's a near twin of the LK Chen. The finish is superior on the hilt, but it cost over twice the price. These rapiers look like value leaders. Very thorough review.
Thank you very much. I think Arms & Armor clearly outputs superior hilt components, especially on their complex-hilt swords, and as much as LK Chen excels at making good blades, he would do well paying some attention to up the game on the hilt front--especially the surface finish. I know it would likely increase the cost, but for the caliber of his swords I know most customers would happily pay some more money to get hilts closer to the originals when the blades are already so well-made.
On the other hand, I think Arms & Armor can up their game on beefing up the thickness of some of their stock models of two-handed swords and rapiers' base thickness. Right now they are around 5-6.5mm, and we know from clearly measurements of originals, most of them should be thicker. That being said, I think Arms & Armor's custom works are more accurate should customers provide very detailed specs.
About my ballistic gel targets, based on my experience cutting it with various types of swords, I think it's closer to cutting animal flesh with skin on. And it's recyclable when the gel is still in good condition, as you can melt the pieces (not easily shattered) and reuse them. The only problem is that my recipe doesn't work well in a hotter climate, as gel source from animals regrade much faster when it's hot outside.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold I've used ballistic gel quite a bit in firearms research, but for some reason it never occurred to me to use it as a cutting medium. Learning has occurred. I agree about the LK Chen rapiers. They seem to be about 90% there. Great value for the price, but just a little more would take them from good to great.
@@patrickkelly1070 Yeah I believe they will get there as LK Chen is the only reproduction company that actively and frequently revise their products and make them better, based on both customer feedback, and new archeological finds that they can get their hands on. The flip side obviously is that buying earlier iterations will carry certain risks of getting products not at their best (even though still great for the price).
Some of the ballistic gel is very bouncy and not suitable for edged weapon tests. The current one I used has good properties that simulate flesh and skin well. I have done quite some cutting tests on pork ribs, and skinned pork shoulder with bones, and this blend of gelatin at 15% concentration is quite close, and perhaps slightly tougher. So I'm fairly happy about the results.
Sometime we ought to trust our ancestors when they constructed a thing made to kill and it existed a hundred years…maybe just maybe it worked and they weren’t dummies. Hehheh!
Also….fantasy gaming…if a “regular” sword does x amount of damage, so too does this! 😁
Great vid! I really enjoyed it.
Cheers!
Exactly right! The reason we need to look to historical weapons for practical designs is that each aspect of these designs have been through hundreds and even thousands years of trial and error when it comes to matter of life and death.
beautiful rapier awesome sharpness
Couldn't agree more!
Imagine trying to sell this performance in a movie or tv show...people would boo and internet would be filled with comments complaining how stupid the scene was. "Rapier cant cut someone's leg off!!! This isn't a light saber!!!"
Without empirical evidence, we would never know. Of course, humans tend to be at their loudest on subject matters they have little knowledge, and this kind of behavior is at their most dangerous when it's built on partial truth coming from unverified hearsay. It's true that some rapiers do not have blades that are conducive to cutting, such as many later period Spanish rapiers. Their blades are narrow are thick, focusing on tip accuracy and nimbleness, so the edge geometries are nowhere being capable of causing great damage. A flick cut can still disable some fingers and even slice open a neck but cuts are not the focus. However, not all rapiers are built the same. Many are indeed cut-and-thrust types, such as this Saxony rapier from the late-16th century.
These battle rapiers were the top of development. Later the firearms became the primary weapon, the sword was mostly a secondary weapon, accordingly lighter and smaller.
By the end of the 16th century, pike & shot were already the primary battlefield weapons.
I. Want. One.
...or maybe, like six of them
Then you shall have one.
Or six.
Nice demonstration. Only wish you had different wooden dowel thickness. The "bone" you cut through looks to be small roughly the size of a finger, so not very significant. However it seemed to do massive damage to the gel which was very impressive. Would like to see the various thickness to the point of failure in cutting clean through
Thanks. There's some mischaracterization here. I'm not sure if you watched the description of the gelatin target in my video. First of all, the wooden dowel is 1/2" in diameter. A human finger bone is not 1/2" thick. Your finger might be, but your finger is not just bone. The bone in there is only a quarter or at most a a third as thick as the finger itself. So characterizing cutting a 1/2" wooden dowel as cutting a finger is downright incorrect.
Then, as I explained in my video, the dowel isn't as thick as a human femur, but 1) human bone like the femur is not a solid mass, it's hollow in the center, filled with spongey bone marrow, which is why you are alive. So the solid part of the bone is only around half the volume; 2) living bone is filled with fluid and it's rather flexible and not resistant to cuts at all, a wooden dowel is completely dried, and solid, which is far more difficult to cut than living bone of the same circumference. So all in all, cutting a 1/2" wooden dowel is about the same difficulty as cutting the center of the living human femur.
Damn bro where do you live? Is that BC? It's beautiful.
Indeed! This is English Bay.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold Ah thanks!
What's the channel of the dude at 54:21 in the video? His form and technique are excellent. When he thrusts, tip goes in first, then front foot lands after the tip is in, then he pivots on that foot, bending his knee to continue the transfer of energy forward into the rapier instead of into his foot, and slides his back foot forward as he finishes the forward thrusting motion. Ive seen a lot of HEMA practitioners, but almost none have shown as good technique as that guy.
(BTW, the reason technique is so important is that even when Kane Shen did the lunging thrusts, his technique was often off, landing on his front foot before inserting the tip, and not pivoting on that front foot or gliding the back foot forward. On the bad technique thrusts, he only got 2-2.5 inches of penetration. But he got the technique near perfect on one attempt, and got over 4 inches of penetration.)
That is the maker of the sword, LK Chen.
@@AtticusZhivago Oh, cool! Thanks.
Yeah that is LK Chen, the maker testing another rapier model of his-the Spanish cup-hilt. LK Chen is an established martial artists on swordsmanship, archery and horsemanship.
I am aware of the proper rapier techniques, but different from the makers who seek demonstrating their work to the maximum extent, I need to also test rhetorical behaviors of weapons operated under less-than-optimal circumstances. Sometimes in fencing your angle of attack is slightly off, but you make the best of the circumstances to still land (which is much preferred to being parried, deflected or evaded). Maybe you need to first cover an opposing thrust or cut then launch a thrust of your own. We need to see the behavior of the sword in question under those circumstances. The real world situations are rarely ideal.
Sounds pretty similar to a one handed version of the striking eagle. A lot of power due to the speed but lacks the weight needed for easy parries against bigger weapons.
It certainly has similarities to some earlier Chinese (Warring States to Han Dynasty) long-bladed swords’s blade components. Long and slightly broader at the base but has more profile taper. The Striking Eagle has an octagonal cross section whereas the Han Dynasty jian like Flying Phoenix has a diamond cross section like this rapier does.
About parrying it is a complex subject. I don’t think it will have that much problem parrying against heavier single handed swords like basket-hilt broadswords as the blade of this Rapier is long and the overall weight isn’t low, it also tends to carry greater speed, remember in collisions, object will decelerate to lose its own momentum and kinetic energy, having a greater velocity means the other blade will have to decelerate this one more to let it reach the negative velocity.
It probably will have problem parrying two handed swords as the primary factor is the two hands on the hilt (usually apart) so the leverage provides much greater stability and much more difficult to be displaced (remember swords are always connected to the user’s body through hands) than an one-hander like the rapier. Upon impact two-handed swords have a greater bracing effect than a one-hander.
However, it doesn’t apply much to organic targets like a body as the blade just passes through, as we see here the ballistic gel and wooden dowel didn’t decelerate the rapier blade much.
Out of curiosity does the Windlass Rapier sag when held in a certain way given that it has a blade that is both long but thin?
Yes indeed. The incorrect thickness (half as thin as it should be) is what making the blade sags.
Can you tell me how long it took for the rapier to arrive from the day you placed the order to the day they notified you it was being dispatched?
I purchased it from my friend, who pre-ordered the rapier when it was first announced--not even available for purchase from LK Chen's website.
Did you have any issues with the guard loosening with cuts?
Not at all. It’s rock solid.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold Excellent. Do you know if it’s a peened or threaded construction?
Matt Easton remarked that his loosened, but I wonder if he got an earlier prototype.
@finalbossd it’s threaded. Mine didn’t come loose after hitting a 10 lbs ballistic gel jug with a wooden dowel in the center. I own 14 LK Chen swords, none of them ever comes loose from normal usage.
The one Saxony someone sent to Matt is probably an earlier prototype like you suggested. It’s about 140 grams heavier than mine which comes in at 2.75 lbs.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold Excellent! Looks like I’m buying a saxony and a town guard sword this year. Thanks for sharing!
Good choice.
Did the Viceroy video get deleted? 😢
Which Viceroy video? I purchased a Viceroy this November, haven't published anything other than a Facebook post yet.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold woops, you are right. I happened to see the pictures on facebook and just assumed you had a video on it. 😅
Stay tuned. I will publish its review after extensive testing. Some other reviews that are coming this year are on the Albion Jarl, Albion Chevalier, and an Angus Trim type XVIIIb.16
Good choices. I visited Albion in 2017 and got to hold some models, including the jarl and Oakeshott. On the topic of publishing, I just published my dad's book that covers many things, including the Sword of the Spirit.
One of my Windlass rapisrs wont flex like that; its from the mid 90s. Windlass rapiers over the years have been all over the place. Ive seen some good ones & some so flat they whipped like a fishing pole.
They can make a decent rapisr but quality control has not been consistent.
What’s very troubling is that they seem to limit the bar stock thickness to 3/16” which is about 5mm for all of their rapiers. Windlass employs primarily stock removal from a bar flat to make sword instead of forging it from a chunk of steel in the most traditional way. This is very problematic as you can’t really go beyond the original thickness of the steel bar flat by removing material instead of using hammer to shape it.
Like I demonstrated in this video, dozens 16-17th century rapiers in various museum collections have the minimal thickness of 8.24mm and maximum thickness of 11.52mm, and these are narrower rapiers with a base width between 15 and 25mm, in other words, what Windlass makes. This means Windlass’ thickness for rapiers (would definitely have to be under 5mm which is the original thickness of their bar stock before even being worked on, and I showed a number of their models at 4-4.7mm base thickness) have only half the thickness as they should have been. And then when you have this tiny thickness, you won’t be able to distally taper the blade down like the originals (anywhere between 50% and 75%), as tapering down a 5mm means a 1.25mm thickness at the foible which is basically a death sentence for a blade that narrow. So they have to keep the entire blade more or less flat. Obviously this makes the sword handle incorrectly. There’s a massive difference between the flat bar and a bar that has only 10-15% of the cross sectional area at the one end as the other end, wouldn’t you agree?
Matt Easton is working actively with Windlass so their new models since 2022 are actually improving and at the very least handle more closer to the originals, even the models not in the Royal Armouries Collection. It is hopeful.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold I definitely agree.
When I speak of good windlass rapiers I'm meaning within the context of windlass rapiers but that doesn't mean they are peroid accurate. I was writing after a new Year's Eve party so I may not have been clear as I was very tired 😂
But yes I'm very happy to see Matt helping Windlass!
Windlass definitely has the ability to make good product, as has been demonstrated well by the Royal Armouries line with Matt's collaboration.
The rise of HEMA has certainly changed the market for European swords! I started collecting swords in 1995. The number of companies, focus on historical accuracy (especially in mid level swords), etc has been great.
Thank you for taking the time to reply & writing such a thorough reply.
No problem. I agree with everything you said there.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold I'll try to measure my old rapiers sometime & let you know as I think at least 1 of the is thicker at the ricasso than the blades they have made more recently. I think they went to thinner stock to cut cost & to make blades lighter overall. But as you said it doesn't get mass distribution correct.
Cool. Would like to hear the old thickness on Windlass blades.
Extensive test cutting ? You didn’t even use tatami lol
Swords in history was not made to cut tatami. They were used to cut and thrust at flesh and bone. My ballistic gel analog is far superior to tatami as an analog, which I explained extensively in the video. Watch the video!
How durable is it?
Based on the destructive tests Matthew Jensen has done on swords made by the same maker, using the same steel, and what I have gathered during my test cutting, it is an extremely durable sword.
Cutting through hard wood dowels give the fine edge zero glinting. Accidentally jamming the tip onto the concrete ground and wall, the ceiling create little change to the tip geometry and how wicked pointy it is. I talked about all of this in my video, of course.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold this sword is a must have then, rapiers are fun and as a man who fights, they match how the jab works to some degree, poking and keeping in and out of range/slashes like throwing hooks once opened by jab
@@gloving4hire That's true to a certain extent. Most cuts by rapiers are ripostes after successful parries. It can also be given sporadically as snap harrassing cuts, as covering lines against thrusts is entirely different from guarding against cuts.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold oh in martial arts you never want to block honestly, more so dipping out or slipping out ir intercepting something, think intercepting/catching blows like small wrist/face cuts would be used much like how a rapier can with proper foot work-fluid and surprising, having your foe move into your attack and you being light on your feet, just out of range to be hit and moving ready to lunge/stab/throw a kick/punch
We are talking about sword fighting, not unarmed fighting.
thats not a rapier... thats a basketed arming sword... but fuck it you being Asian gives you so much credibility when it comes to s-words the west just accepts all words as fact.
It's not "basket hilt", it's called Swept-Hilt. Important distinction, when it comes down to words, I know. And the word rapier just means "Espada Ropera"--a dress sword of certain styles of hilt and very long blades, which this sword qualifies. There is not monolith of "rapier", they are are a broad type of swords of a long period of time in history.
Metropolitan Museum--which houses the original of this sword--calls it a rapier. The maker calls it a rapier (he makes a number of other styles of rapier), and HEMA instructors and practitioners call it a rapier (the type that balances between cut and thrust), so I call it a rapier. Simple, and plain.
@@FortuneFavoursTheBold thanks for being insecure enough to personally reply be wrong and mansplain it to me. you are the exact type ov person who got mad at me for denting their armor:)
@@nunyanunya4147 I don't mind educating people, even the ones who includes a typo and a grammatical error in every single word they mutter. No human being is truly too far gone, even one such as yourself, who can't distinguish a broken toilet from armor. I would admit this: in your case, perhaps health care professionals are more needed than simply some educators. I do encourage you to seek some help, it MIGHT not be too late.
@@nunyanunya4147 Oh and keep clicking the Like button on your own posts filled with typos. I know self-awareness is something one can't ask of you, but let me enlighten you--this one time free of charge--You Are Embarrassing Yourself Publicly.
It actually makes sense though why a rapier can cut so well though, Rapiers are usually long, thin blades. Which means that the part you would use to cut with (like the middle-upper part of the blade) is actually going faster. You can imagine it as like a tyre with a bigger radius, and a tyre with a smaller radius, and both of them are going at the same frequency , the one with the bigger radius is going to have a bigger speed. So the tip of a rapier can have more kinetic energy than even cut oriented swords, because of the higher speed.
Although just because a rapier cuts better than some greatswords, doesn't mean it is necessarily a better weapon. Remember blunt impact is also a thing, a greatsword can have the same kinetic energy of a rapier but a bigger momentum , because of it's wider blade, and also the center of balance is also moved up a bit, a rapier usually have a center of balance that is almost on the hilt, while a greatsword is going to have a balance further, to have bigger heft, and thus better momentum, so it will deal more damage overall, even if you completely mess up edge alignment, you will still do damage, while a rapier will barely do anything, momentum is very important.