Just a small correction to part 3 of this video - the start of the ramp is defined by your estimate MAP number, not FTP. This just ensures a more bespoke ramp environment for each athlete. Cheers, Cam
Really interesting new take on the FTP test by adding the advantage of riding to exhaustion to your 4DP critical power model. I wonder whether you considered a test that consists out of two ramps. You could have a short steep ramp and a long gradual ramp to probe the power profile and ride to exhaustion twice. Or do you reckon that that is too intense for a single session?
@@marklokteff5818 It really depends upon your trainer, the gearing on your bike, and the power you need to sustain to stay in the heart rate zone. On a Wahoo KICKR, Level 2 tends to work well for most people.
@@TheSufferfest After the test it is stated that FTP is 20 minute power (@ 11:32 of this video). FTP as I know it usually refers to 60 minute power. When I do the test myself, do I have to multiply the value with e.g. 0.95 to get the 1h threshold power or not? Thank you.
Thanks mate for the video decided to sign up and give it a go. Was a strange test compared to others would have loved to have done this for a first ever FTP test. Hard to get into a rhythm and not drop hr but was spot on with last month ftp with min riding so accurate. Thanks again Sufferfest will be a gamechanger for me I hope
Interesting new Test. I was using the 4DP test so far and the sufferfest app for a few weeks. Before I have used zwift for 3 years. I prefer sufferfest for training as it keeps me motivated during a traning. I will try the half monty test. Thanks Cam
Cam, just done Half Monty. My FTP was cut by 1/5 of my previous measured one. I have build my FTP over last half year or so. Doing mostly Zwift. Now I done this Sufferfest one and to my surprise it come down to my year ago level. I'm using Wahoo Core and Tickr Run. I'm on Zwift 4 times a week for the last 3 months doing average 30km a a ride in D category
Nice informative video Cam. Personally I’ve been using XERT so far this year which essentially gives you a live FTP number day on day based on your recent trading and rides and it has been spot on when compared to best 20 min etc. I think the bottom line is that you need to be comfortable with any testing protocol and stick with it as there are seemingly more variations on FTP testing every year.
dude i've kinda been checked out in general lately, shame on me for letting real life take me away from youtube, right! but i am so glad i have been tuning back in recently. always something to learn from you, cam. i'm so excited to have even a loose structure to train with... only a matter of time before i join your uplevel course :) and hey it looks like you are just a few days older than my sister! she was born in august of 81 & she's also a ginger, oddly enough. omg what if we're related?!!!
hahaha! Glad to hear your back on the motivation train! At least a little anyway. It's certainly a difficult time to stay fully motivated that is for sure. Cam
So in order to use your coaching do I need to join Sufferfest also ? Just seems like the list never ends. I'm already on TrainerRoad, and have a stages solo and a gym membership cycling clubs and spend a metric butt ton on cycling.
Great review Cam. I've been using this test and it's been perfect for a tune up of figures when I just can't face (or don't have time to prep and recover from) Full Frontal. I've always found traditional ramp tests leave me with an FTP from cloud Cuckoo land! This one has been much more useful.
I want to raise 2 important questions!: 1)Cadence, it affects your HR at same Power. Month ago i did ramp at 70 cadence and got 290FTP, yesterday i did at 90 cadence and got 225FTP (my HR raised sooner and got into Z5 at lower wattage, and it shut legs down). So - at what cadence do you do it? And what difference you saw in results at different cadence? 2)Does indoor Ramp Test affected by a well ventilated room versus room with 3 days windows shut ? Does it lower VO2max value if 3 days windows weren't opened?
How did your MAP and FTP compare to the values in the 4DP? I've done both and got different values, but they were 5 weeks apart so it was either the training in between or the test. Great test for a check-in compared to 4DP.
Great video, Cam. You explained it quite well. I did the Half Monty at the end of March and faced the Full frontal one week later, after a preparation week. The Half Monty was right on target for my LTHR and FTP, though it gave me a higher MAP than the FF. I think I find incremental efforts easier to face than sustained efforts, so I guess that might be related.
question Im in the market about to get the new 2020 Cervelo S5, I seen you reviewed this bike and just wanted to ask again what you think about the bike. Pros and cons
ronald jackson sorry to jump in, I bought an S5 in February; size 56, dura ace/enve wheels. It’s a rocket ship! It’s super stiff & comfortable, beautiful handling. I went 120 stem, 0 offset seat post. I prefer the S5 to the S-works venge I had last year. The venge was awesome (bit noisy) the S5 is so smooth & holds speed so well.
SilverCat sorry took so long yes I got the 2020 S5 and I love it, your right so smooth and quite and I put the SRAM 1x on it and wow my gearing options are limitless with the 52 front ring and 10-42 rear cog. This bike is so quite and smooth and comfortable it will be a long time before I buy another bike. Cervelo got it right with the 2020 S5
Thanks for sharing mate. Yes, it can depend on the type of rider you are also. That is why the sustained 20-minute effort has been added in there to get a more reliable result. Cam
What Cam said! Other ramp tests are typically not accurate for 20% of athletes, specifically those you are more anaerobically-gifted. The heart rate constrained effort after the ramp helps us to refine the FTP estimate, resulting in much more accurate values.
Spot on, the differences in your "true" FTP will vary depending on which test you do, and what your natural (and trained) strengths are. This is the first Ramp test that takes Heart Rate into consideration. By comparing your heart rate peaks during the ramp, and then your heart rate to power relationship during the constrained effort, we get a much better idea of how much power you can produce aerobically, which will lead to a more accurate estimate of your FTP. I'd suggest checking it out next time you need to do some tests (especially since you can do it during the 14 day free trial period, so it won't cost you anything)
Thanks for the vid. Now that TrainerRoad will be calculating all metrics (FTP, MAP, etc.) without testing due to their AI & ML models, will testing go the way of the dodo?
Actually just finished cranking through this test at home and found this vid!! Great analysis... can't believe you reused that footage of the missus smashing that FTP test again though!! You may be in the doghouse again tonight!
Cam Nicholls I increased my FTP by 19 points from the 4DP test I did a month back which is good... still not in the same country let alone postcode of the numbers you are posting though!! HR constrained effort was a bit trickier and tougher to manage as a newbie but otherwise a decent test! Good as a regular benchmark of progress.
I got my turbo trainer 4 days ago did the 4DP Full Monty yesterday and it was brutal. Will give the half monty a go soon Cheers Cam. Trainers are the Tits loving it.
Due to the complex nature of the calculations, it would be very difficult to run the equations on your own (unless you are proficient in R or Matlab). That being said, you can use the app for free (without adding a credit card) for 14 days, so there's no reason not to give it a try and see what you think!
Hey my man, great video thank you! So you don't have any links with sufferfest ie sponsorship etc? You are promoting sufferfest purely because you love it? Cheers. Stay safe.
No links here. Sufferfest is probably the bang for your buck you can get when wanting to improve your cycling. The holistic approach is fantastic. Yoga sessions and the ^element of style^ make you a better cycling in no time. Try it out... just don't do it on windows, it just never works properly (for me)
I think why it has a warmup is because each jump like you said is around 28w which is a big jump. Zwift I think is 20 watts and Trainer Road is 10 watts.
Thanks for the comment Darin, irrespective of the ramp jump you should get warm like this. You want to tap into some of your upper end systems before you go hard! This will ensure a better result and limit chances of injury! Cam
Also worth noting that the increases in ramp are based on your current settings, so someone with a MAP of 250W will not see the same absolute increase in power per stage as someone with a 350W MAP. To get the best results from any ramp test you really want the increases to be some-what dialed into your current fitness. If the stages are too high, you hit failure too soon, too low and you might not hit max effort before the ramp is even over.
@@CamNicholls I agree, especially when I've gotten older a warmup is critical. I always perform better when my nervous system gets tapped into first to let it know what's coming (Lots of pain/crying).
How long should be the Recovery before I do an Ramptest? For example I did today a low intensity ride Out with 140Km and 1600 hm.....I am 45 should I stop for three days my Programm and Start with the ramp ....? I never know the right moment.....
The ramp test and even the 20 or 8x2 test favor the anerobic system and why, for many cyclists, do not give you the correct truth and overestimate FTP for non-elite cyclists. I think the reason why this test is better, IMO is that FTP is the result between the balance play between your anaerobic and aerobic system. I believe it helps try and "tune" the estimate. However, FTP still does not give you that "actual play" between your anaerobic and aerobic systems and thus a training plan on FTP alone is probably still robbing many athletes of optimal gains. The INSCYD system is really interesting....and wish I was good enough to justify the cost....but I will take this update from Sufferfest anyday.
It says FTP = 20 min (which was 350w). Should you multiply that number by 0.95 to get the "real" FTP that one in theory should be able to sustain for 40-70min?
Hey Cam Had to sell my road bike. Issue with carbon steerer and bike fit, it's a long story. I am now in the market for a new to me bike. Looking for a bike that's fast and something I could use if I decided to race next year. 16M, not to serious.YET! Should I go for an aero or light weight bike?
Cam Nicholls I have a pair of s-works 6 for last 3 years , do you think they are a good shoe to replace them? I tried the s-works 7 but didn’t find them very confortable :/ and was thinking about the new bontragers
That’s technically true but in reality, you still need to do an activity that tests your fitness signature. These can be harder than an FTP test depending on your signature. The difference is that the format is open on Xert whereas with other platforms it is fixed. Ultimately you’re doing the same thing, testing your fitness level.
Scott Bentrup I know, I just want to explain that there is no need to do an 8/20 minute test to find out your number. These tests are static for 6-8 weeks, This is not logical, during that time your physical form varies, that is why the Xert data are real numbers for day-to-day training!
@@arroyoiam You're right on that, I didn't want people to think that they never have to do any kind of "test" efforts on Xert. It's one of their selling points and technically true, but only narrowly. You have to "test", but it's not a test. If that makes any sense :) I personally found breakthrough efforts much harder to get than any 8 or 20 minute FTP tests and at this point have gone 5+ weeks without one, despite taking 4-5 attempts at it... sigh.
Oh well, here I go again to do another FTP test 😀 that’s all good. The Zwift ramp is actually a very nice quick workout regardless for these coronadays
These companies ramp tests all kinda get you to the same place. They decide all there calculations by looking at their data and trying to find the balance between compliance and maximizing gains on the next training block using their workouts. So the number you get off of TrainerRoad or suffer feat might be different but they seems to scale the workout on the respective platforms appropriately. Personally I prefer the trainer road ramp test as it’s short and good enough. I can mess around with workout percentages by 1-5% depending on the workout type or how I feel that day to get things dialed.
Thanks for sharing, I’ve done the Trainer Road ramp test myself. And Zwift. I like how this one provides another platform to narrow in on the FTP power output while also providing LTHR to compliment power training. 👍
Why no “60 minutes all out” for traditional tests 😂 To be transparent, the first tests I did were the 2x8 mins, then the 20 min test, and then the Ramp test. I do the 60 min test now and my numbers have risen so much more consistently because it gave me my true zones. I only use my 60 minute power for endurance and threshold work, when I do anaerobic intervals I use my Vo2 max power from a 6 minute test to set interval intensity.
Thanks for sharing mate. The 60 minute test isn’t really used in the coaching fraternity from what I’ve seen. Mainly for two reasons 1/ it’s difficult for many athletes to pace properly 2/ it’s very daunting for athletes to go all out for 60 mins. But kudos to you for being able to 💪
Cam, have you had a chance to look at Xert Online? They have a system that continues to use your power achievements to continually tune your riding metrics. Worth a look.
Having used both I massively prefer trainerroad. The workouts don't look to beat you up every time you get on the bike, I found the knowledge of the staff a lot higher than the people at SF and I saw a lot more gains from it.
Having just had a look at your strava I find it interesting how you use zwift just as much if not more than the Sufferfest. It speaks volumes when someone high up in a company such as yourself doesn't seem to fully trust its own product. The trainerroad guys do and they get fantastic results from it
Thanks for sharing Jay and I can appreciate some of your commentary surrounding getting beat up. Some of the workouts are extreme but if the right approach is taken - progressive overload, and no more than 3 HIT sessions a week - I have found the workouts to be hugely beneficial to my on road performance.
I’ve only recently started to get into Zwift, but from what I can gather from these early stages is the SUF compliments Zwift massively if you’re looking to get better at Zwifting. Workouts such as the Over Unders, the Defender, and threshold focused HIT programs I’ve fond to be useful, as external to a few upper end efforts during and at the end, I need to be good at riding threshold for a sustained period when Zwift racing. I have actually been riding the Igniter in the SUF before a Zwift race to get warm too! Obviously the strength and mind workouts are a great resource for off bike stuff! Cam
@@CamNicholls don't get me wrong I understand that training isn't meant to be easy. When I was doing the Sufferfest I was doing 2 of their 45 min -1 hour sessions a week and a Sunday club run. Even though I saw progress because of the intensity I found myself become fatigued very quickly. Obviously with a name like that it's not going to be a walk in the park but I don't see the need for example doing a ramp test which is perfectly good and accurate enough and then doing a 20 minute test. TR just uses the result of a ramp test and I have to say it seems more accurate than any 20 minute test or the 4dp test that I've done. I realise that this did come accros as a bit of a bashing post which I apologise for... Never write a comment when hungry eh? In my experience even though all the workouts are broken down In SF I've found myself becoming a far more complete cyclist with TR. Yes there are pros and cons too every training app out there but I think people reading this will see where my allegiance lays
Jay Keenan haha! All good, you have experiences and opinions on the topic. I’ve used Trainer Road myself personally and I am not a big fan. Everyone is different and entitled to varying experiences/opinions so great to have yours on the thread 👍
I think we can all agree that the 4DP takes a lot of preparation and motivation. I did it only twice over the course of 4 months - I wanted to see how training in high altitude, like Bogota, would fare with training at sea level, like Ottawa, and turns out I increased my ftp by about 19% at sea level. , Although it gave me a good update on my numbers I find it so difficult that when I think about it, well, I try to think about something else, plain and simple. Will try this half monty and see how it goes :)
Intrigued by this but as a TrainerRoad subscriber I will stick their straight up ramp test. I do imagine this is science led though and really hope it’s not marketing driven from the SF. As a consumer I would suggest we need as much simplicity to the testing protocol as we can get.
If it were up to the Marketing team, we would have launched this last spring, ha! Our biggest issue with ramp tests has always been that for a decent portion of the cycling population, they give estimates for FTP that are either too low or too high based on that individual's anaerobic ability. If I were to base my FTP off of a standard ramp test I would struggle to finish any really threshold sessions. To get the most accurate results from Half Monty you do need to have a heart rate monitor. This allows us to better determine your ability to produce power aerobically, which is highly correlated with your FTP. You can stick to just the Ramp portion is you want, which then calculates your FTP by taking a set percentage of your peak 5-minute from the ramp, after we have taken into consideration your age, weight, and gender, so we can't just say it's 80% of peak 5min, because for one person it might be and another person it would not be. All that being said, with a 14 day free trial, there is no reason not to sign up for free just to see for yourself!
Ok, this is all well and good and looks pretty fancy, but no mention of 3MT? Takes all of 3 minutes plus however long you want to spend doing a light warmup (and add in a few minutes for cleaning the puke off your trainer) and doesn’t even require erg mode: you can do it on the road with just a power meter if you wanted. Gives perfectly reasonable CP and W’ numbers you can structure your intervals with. I don’t want to get into conspiracy theory territory, but I feel like companies like zwift and trainerroad are incentivized to make tests and workouts look as complicated as possible to convince users that they need the computer-automated guidance to achieve their fitness goals.
There’s no one size fits all to determine FTP. I know guys who don’t know their FTP but know exactly what they can do for 1,3 & 5 minutes they race crits & Road so FTP is useless to them. But someone like me (a Tester) needs to know FTP but a 4DP or a Ramp is not a good way to determine FTP - but for a Roadie doing one TT a year it could be. All depends on what your goals are.
Your FTP stayed the same as what you already thought it was "based on current fitness levels". what does that mean? seems you already had a reliable FTP number so you haven't convinced me that this is more reliable.
I often test FTP so I have an idea based on experiences. I hadn't tested it for a couple of months but had a rough understanding based on experience. Cam
Yeah ramp test was totally inaccurate. I used to Oly lift and Squat quite a bit and the MAP favoring (as described by Cam in this video) increased the FTP eastimate waaaay to much, over 25 watts. Couldn't complete trainerroad over/under intervals after using that inaccurate number for 3 days until I reduced it significantly. 20 minute test and 4DP test were accurate and considerably more conservative in their estimate.
That first question is my question. Why test the FTP at all? It's not why I ride a bike. It is definitely something I don't care about. I love riding my bike. I live for it. But I don't want to turn it into another thing that causes stress in my life. And by that I mean focusing on training, performance, nutrition, and zones. I really don't understand where you guys come from when you turn cycling into a competition based lifestyle that requires testing, planning, and so much structure you can't enjoy the activity.
Some hard core cyclist down play Zwift. Zwift was started to relieve the boredom of indoor cycling. Then a game (rewards) and then social aspect. The training sessions are good for 99% of the cyclist. Comparing other platforms to Zwift is moot in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing Dan, I can appreciate where your coming from. However stay tuned for the full SUF review, there might be some aspects to it that change your perspective. Cam
@@CamNicholls I'm a SUF client and one thing that I wish they had were personalized plans. For now, they have fixed training plans, such as a 10 week training plan. But what if you only have 8 weeks? From what I understand, you need to "hack" the plan specifying your end date but then you have a 10 week plan in an 8 week period. For the price that we pay, if would be really nice to have personalized plan which takes into consideration the number of weeks you have. With all the data they have on us, I'm sure it's not too difficult.
Just a small correction to part 3 of this video - the start of the ramp is defined by your estimate MAP number, not FTP. This just ensures a more bespoke ramp environment for each athlete. Cheers, Cam
Really thorough, accurate look at Half Monty. Thanks for digging in, Cam. Happy to answer any questions your viewers might have.
Really interesting new take on the FTP test by adding the advantage of riding to exhaustion to your 4DP critical power model. I wonder whether you considered a test that consists out of two ramps. You could have a short steep ramp and a long gradual ramp to probe the power profile and ride to exhaustion twice.
Or do you reckon that that is too intense for a single session?
which "level mode" are you supposed to select after the ramp on a smart trainier?
Mark Lokteff It depends upon the trainer and your power, but level 2 on a Wahoo KICKR seems to work best for most people.
@@marklokteff5818 It really depends upon your trainer, the gearing on your bike, and the power you need to sustain to stay in the heart rate zone. On a Wahoo KICKR, Level 2 tends to work well for most people.
@@TheSufferfest After the test it is stated that FTP is 20 minute power (@ 11:32 of this video). FTP as I know it usually refers to 60 minute power. When I do the test myself, do I have to multiply the value with e.g. 0.95 to get the 1h threshold power or not? Thank you.
Thanks mate for the video decided to sign up and give it a go. Was a strange test compared to others would have loved to have done this for a first ever FTP test. Hard to get into a rhythm and not drop hr but was spot on with last month ftp with min riding so accurate. Thanks again Sufferfest will be a gamechanger for me I hope
Thanks Cam. Very useful info for the HM.
Interesting new Test. I was using the 4DP test so far and the sufferfest app for a few weeks. Before I have used zwift for 3 years. I prefer sufferfest for training as it keeps me motivated during a traning. I will try the half monty test. Thanks Cam
I always break into a cold sweat whenever I hear FTP...
Haha! I get that.
Cam, just done Half Monty. My FTP was cut by 1/5 of my previous measured one. I have build my FTP over last half year or so. Doing mostly Zwift. Now I done this Sufferfest one and to my surprise it come down to my year ago level. I'm using Wahoo Core and Tickr Run. I'm on Zwift 4 times a week for the last 3 months doing average 30km a a ride in D category
Nice informative video Cam. Personally I’ve been using XERT so far this year which essentially gives you a live FTP number day on day based on your recent trading and rides and it has been spot on when compared to best 20 min etc. I think the bottom line is that you need to be comfortable with any testing protocol and stick with it as there are seemingly more variations on FTP testing every year.
Thanks for sharing Mike, will be looking into Xert, and agree 💯
dude i've kinda been checked out in general lately, shame on me for letting real life take me away from youtube, right! but i am so glad i have been tuning back in recently. always something to learn from you, cam. i'm so excited to have even a loose structure to train with... only a matter of time before i join your uplevel course :) and hey it looks like you are just a few days older than my sister! she was born in august of 81 & she's also a ginger, oddly enough. omg what if we're related?!!!
hahaha! Glad to hear your back on the motivation train! At least a little anyway. It's certainly a difficult time to stay fully motivated that is for sure. Cam
In the discomfort of your own home
Hahaha! Good point but you feel way better off for doing it! That’s what I’ve been finding.
Really good video, thanks.
So in order to use your coaching do I need to join Sufferfest also ? Just seems like the list never ends. I'm already on TrainerRoad, and have a stages solo and a gym membership cycling clubs and spend a metric butt ton on cycling.
Great review Cam. I've been using this test and it's been perfect for a tune up of figures when I just can't face (or don't have time to prep and recover from) Full Frontal.
I've always found traditional ramp tests leave me with an FTP from cloud Cuckoo land! This one has been much more useful.
Nice one, thanks for sharing Lee 👍
I want to raise 2 important questions!:
1)Cadence, it affects your HR at same Power. Month ago i did ramp at 70 cadence and got 290FTP, yesterday i did at 90 cadence and got 225FTP (my HR raised sooner and got into Z5 at lower wattage, and it shut legs down). So - at what cadence do you do it? And what difference you saw in results at different cadence?
2)Does indoor Ramp Test affected by a well ventilated room versus room with 3 days windows shut ? Does it lower VO2max value if 3 days windows weren't opened?
How did your MAP and FTP compare to the values in the 4DP? I've done both and got different values, but they were 5 weeks apart so it was either the training in between or the test. Great test for a check-in compared to 4DP.
Great video, Cam. You explained it quite well.
I did the Half Monty at the end of March and faced the Full frontal one week later, after a preparation week. The Half Monty was right on target for my LTHR and FTP, though it gave me a higher MAP than the FF. I think I find incremental efforts easier to face than sustained efforts, so I guess that might be related.
Nice one mate, thanks for sharing on the thread 👍 Cam
question Im in the market about to get the new 2020 Cervelo S5, I seen you reviewed this bike and just wanted to ask again what you think about the bike. Pros and cons
ronald jackson sorry to jump in, I bought an S5 in February; size 56, dura ace/enve wheels. It’s a rocket ship! It’s super stiff & comfortable, beautiful handling. I went 120 stem, 0 offset seat post. I prefer the S5 to the S-works venge I had last year. The venge was awesome (bit noisy) the S5 is so smooth & holds speed so well.
Super fast, Super stiff. Probably the least comfortable comparing to Venge and Timemachine.
SilverCat sorry took so long yes I got the 2020 S5 and I love it, your right so smooth and quite and I put the SRAM 1x on it and wow my gearing options are limitless with the 52 front ring and 10-42 rear cog. This bike is so quite and smooth and comfortable it will be a long time before I buy another bike. Cervelo got it right with the 2020 S5
ronald jackson congrats dude! 🍻
i feel like there's some flaws to the ramp test. last year i tried both a standard ftp test and a ramp test and the ramp test was 20 watts higher.
Thanks for sharing mate. Yes, it can depend on the type of rider you are also. That is why the sustained 20-minute effort has been added in there to get a more reliable result. Cam
What Cam said! Other ramp tests are typically not accurate for 20% of athletes, specifically those you are more anaerobically-gifted. The heart rate constrained effort after the ramp helps us to refine the FTP estimate, resulting in much more accurate values.
Spot on, the differences in your "true" FTP will vary depending on which test you do, and what your natural (and trained) strengths are. This is the first Ramp test that takes Heart Rate into consideration. By comparing your heart rate peaks during the ramp, and then your heart rate to power relationship during the constrained effort, we get a much better idea of how much power you can produce aerobically, which will lead to a more accurate estimate of your FTP. I'd suggest checking it out next time you need to do some tests (especially since you can do it during the 14 day free trial period, so it won't cost you anything)
Thanks for the vid. Now that TrainerRoad will be calculating all metrics (FTP, MAP, etc.) without testing due to their AI & ML models, will testing go the way of the dodo?
Actually just finished cranking through this test at home and found this vid!! Great analysis... can't believe you reused that footage of the missus smashing that FTP test again though!! You may be in the doghouse again tonight!
Haha! Don’t think I can go backwards from there! Glad to hear you’ve had a crack. How did you find if?
Cam Nicholls I increased my FTP by 19 points from the 4DP test I did a month back which is good... still not in the same country let alone postcode of the numbers you are posting though!! HR constrained effort was a bit trickier and tougher to manage as a newbie but otherwise a decent test! Good as a regular benchmark of progress.
wastrey123 nice one, great work 👍
So with the tcr on the market whats the next bike you are looking at getting Cam? Enjoying the videos also keep up the awesome work!
Cheers Jack, I am thinking about it, but I need to sell the TCR first! That is my rule, as hard as it is to maintain.
I got my turbo trainer 4 days ago did the 4DP Full Monty yesterday and it was brutal. Will give the half monty a go soon Cheers Cam. Trainers are the Tits loving it.
Yes agreed. Half Monty is more of a practical test to keep doing long term
Is there a way to calculate the numbers or do you have to be a member of Sufferfest?
Due to the complex nature of the calculations, it would be very difficult to run the equations on your own (unless you are proficient in R or Matlab). That being said, you can use the app for free (without adding a credit card) for 14 days, so there's no reason not to give it a try and see what you think!
What they said 👆
Hey my man, great video thank you! So you don't have any links with sufferfest ie sponsorship etc? You are promoting sufferfest purely because you love it? Cheers. Stay safe.
No links here. Sufferfest is probably the bang for your buck you can get when wanting to improve your cycling. The holistic approach is fantastic. Yoga sessions and the ^element of style^ make you a better cycling in no time.
Try it out... just don't do it on windows, it just never works properly (for me)
I think why it has a warmup is because each jump like you said is around 28w which is a big jump. Zwift I think is 20 watts and Trainer Road is 10 watts.
Thanks for the comment Darin, irrespective of the ramp jump you should get warm like this. You want to tap into some of your upper end systems before you go hard! This will ensure a better result and limit chances of injury! Cam
Also worth noting that the increases in ramp are based on your current settings, so someone with a MAP of 250W will not see the same absolute increase in power per stage as someone with a 350W MAP. To get the best results from any ramp test you really want the increases to be some-what dialed into your current fitness. If the stages are too high, you hit failure too soon, too low and you might not hit max effort before the ramp is even over.
@@CamNicholls I agree, especially when I've gotten older a warmup is critical. I always perform better when my nervous system gets tapped into first to let it know what's coming (Lots of pain/crying).
I believe in your previous video you did vo2 and lactate test with MET performance how is the result compare to Sufferfest LTHR?
I did Jerry, my LTHR was about 3-5 beats different but I am also now close to two years older and fitness has changed slightly.
Carbon bikes on Trainers.
Any concerns? Always heard that it was a bad idea and better to run it in alum.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it at all, unless you have a super light fragile climbing bike maybe.
How long should be the Recovery before I do an Ramptest?
For example I did today a low intensity ride Out with 140Km and 1600 hm.....I am 45 should I stop for three days my Programm and Start with the ramp ....? I never know the right moment.....
@@davidmcquillen555 perfect thanks
The ramp test and even the 20 or 8x2 test favor the anerobic system and why, for many cyclists, do not give you the correct truth and overestimate FTP for non-elite cyclists. I think the reason why this test is better, IMO is that FTP is the result between the balance play between your anaerobic and aerobic system. I believe it helps try and "tune" the estimate. However, FTP still does not give you that "actual play" between your anaerobic and aerobic systems and thus a training plan on FTP alone is probably still robbing many athletes of optimal gains.
The INSCYD system is really interesting....and wish I was good enough to justify the cost....but I will take this update from Sufferfest anyday.
It says FTP = 20 min (which was 350w). Should you multiply that number by 0.95 to get the "real" FTP that one in theory should be able to sustain for 40-70min?
Hey Cam
Had to sell my road bike. Issue with carbon steerer and bike fit, it's a long story. I am now in the market for a new to me bike.
Looking for a bike that's fast and something I could use if I decided to race next year. 16M, not to serious.YET!
Should I go for an aero or light weight bike?
I typically say go for comfort unless your racing crits all out. So that would be light weight.
What do you think about the new bontrager xxx shoes? ;)
Love them, best I’ve owned. Super stiff and comfortable 👌✅
Cam Nicholls I have a pair of s-works 6 for last 3 years , do you think they are a good shoe to replace them? I tried the s-works 7 but didn’t find them very confortable :/ and was thinking about the new bontragers
Hi, did you know about Xert? There’s no need to do a test with Xert.
I have heard about it, but will need to examine it further to have a solid opinion. Thanks for pointing this out. Cam
That’s technically true but in reality, you still need to do an activity that tests your fitness signature. These can be harder than an FTP test depending on your signature. The difference is that the format is open on Xert whereas with other platforms it is fixed. Ultimately you’re doing the same thing, testing your fitness level.
Scott Bentrup I know, I just want to explain that there is no need to do an 8/20 minute test to find out your number. These tests are static for 6-8 weeks, This is not logical, during that time your physical form varies, that is why the Xert data are real numbers for day-to-day training!
@@arroyoiam You're right on that, I didn't want people to think that they never have to do any kind of "test" efforts on Xert. It's one of their selling points and technically true, but only narrowly. You have to "test", but it's not a test. If that makes any sense :)
I personally found breakthrough efforts much harder to get than any 8 or 20 minute FTP tests and at this point have gone 5+ weeks without one, despite taking 4-5 attempts at it... sigh.
Scott Bentrup 3 weeks since my last BT and numbers starting to drop slowly!
Oh well, here I go again to do another FTP test 😀 that’s all good. The Zwift ramp is actually a very nice quick workout regardless for these coronadays
Thanks for sharing mate and agree, it’s actually a good workout in itself. Certainly takes your mind off things for 3-5 minutes!
These companies ramp tests all kinda get you to the same place. They decide all there calculations by looking at their data and trying to find the balance between compliance and maximizing gains on the next training block using their workouts. So the number you get off of TrainerRoad or suffer feat might be different but they seems to scale the workout on the respective platforms appropriately. Personally I prefer the trainer road ramp test as it’s short and good enough. I can mess around with workout percentages by 1-5% depending on the workout type or how I feel that day to get things dialed.
Thanks for sharing, I’ve done the Trainer Road ramp test myself. And Zwift. I like how this one provides another platform to narrow in on the FTP power output while also providing LTHR to compliment power training. 👍
Why no “60 minutes all out” for traditional tests 😂
To be transparent, the first tests I did were the 2x8 mins, then the 20 min test, and then the Ramp test. I do the 60 min test now and my numbers have risen so much more consistently because it gave me my true zones.
I only use my 60 minute power for endurance and threshold work, when I do anaerobic intervals I use my Vo2 max power from a 6 minute test to set interval intensity.
Thanks for sharing mate. The 60 minute test isn’t really used in the coaching fraternity from what I’ve seen. Mainly for two reasons 1/ it’s difficult for many athletes to pace properly 2/ it’s very daunting for athletes to go all out for 60 mins. But kudos to you for being able to 💪
Cam, have you had a chance to look at Xert Online? They have a system that continues to use your power achievements to continually tune your riding metrics. Worth a look.
No I haven’t but I’ll look into it, thanks for the tip.
Having used both I massively prefer trainerroad. The workouts don't look to beat you up every time you get on the bike, I found the knowledge of the staff a lot higher than the people at SF and I saw a lot more gains from it.
Having just had a look at your strava I find it interesting how you use zwift just as much if not more than the Sufferfest. It speaks volumes when someone high up in a company such as yourself doesn't seem to fully trust its own product. The trainerroad guys do and they get fantastic results from it
Thanks for sharing Jay and I can appreciate some of your commentary surrounding getting beat up. Some of the workouts are extreme but if the right approach is taken - progressive overload, and no more than 3 HIT sessions a week - I have found the workouts to be hugely beneficial to my on road performance.
I’ve only recently started to get into Zwift, but from what I can gather from these early stages is the SUF compliments Zwift massively if you’re looking to get better at Zwifting. Workouts such as the Over Unders, the Defender, and threshold focused HIT programs I’ve fond to be useful, as external to a few upper end efforts during and at the end, I need to be good at riding threshold for a sustained period when Zwift racing. I have actually been riding the Igniter in the SUF before a Zwift race to get warm too! Obviously the strength and mind workouts are a great resource for off bike stuff! Cam
@@CamNicholls don't get me wrong I understand that training isn't meant to be easy. When I was doing the Sufferfest I was doing 2 of their 45 min -1 hour sessions a week and a Sunday club run. Even though I saw progress because of the intensity I found myself become fatigued very quickly. Obviously with a name like that it's not going to be a walk in the park but I don't see the need for example doing a ramp test which is perfectly good and accurate enough and then doing a 20 minute test. TR just uses the result of a ramp test and I have to say it seems more accurate than any 20 minute test or the 4dp test that I've done. I realise that this did come accros as a bit of a bashing post which I apologise for... Never write a comment when hungry eh? In my experience even though all the workouts are broken down In SF I've found myself becoming a far more complete cyclist with TR. Yes there are pros and cons too every training app out there but I think people reading this will see where my allegiance lays
Jay Keenan haha! All good, you have experiences and opinions on the topic. I’ve used Trainer Road myself personally and I am not a big fan. Everyone is different and entitled to varying experiences/opinions so great to have yours on the thread 👍
So what happened to 4DP ?
I think we can all agree that the 4DP takes a lot of preparation and motivation. I did it only twice over the course of 4 months - I wanted to see how training in high altitude, like Bogota, would fare with training at sea level, like Ottawa, and turns out I increased my ftp by about 19% at sea level. , Although it gave me a good update on my numbers I find it so difficult that when I think about it, well, I try to think about something else, plain and simple. Will try this half monty and see how it goes :)
Intrigued by this but as a TrainerRoad subscriber I will stick their straight up ramp test. I do imagine this is science led though and really hope it’s not marketing driven from the SF. As a consumer I would suggest we need as much simplicity to the testing protocol as we can get.
Agreed David and definitely appears to be science led from the discussions I’ve had. Training come first with the SUF, that’s why I’m a big fan.
If it were up to the Marketing team, we would have launched this last spring, ha!
Our biggest issue with ramp tests has always been that for a decent portion of the cycling population, they give estimates for FTP that are either too low or too high based on that individual's anaerobic ability.
If I were to base my FTP off of a standard ramp test I would struggle to finish any really threshold sessions.
To get the most accurate results from Half Monty you do need to have a heart rate monitor. This allows us to better determine your ability to produce power aerobically, which is highly correlated with your FTP.
You can stick to just the Ramp portion is you want, which then calculates your FTP by taking a set percentage of your peak 5-minute from the ramp, after we have taken into consideration your age, weight, and gender, so we can't just say it's 80% of peak 5min, because for one person it might be and another person it would not be.
All that being said, with a 14 day free trial, there is no reason not to sign up for free just to see for yourself!
Ok, this is all well and good and looks pretty fancy, but no mention of 3MT? Takes all of 3 minutes plus however long you want to spend doing a light warmup (and add in a few minutes for cleaning the puke off your trainer) and doesn’t even require erg mode: you can do it on the road with just a power meter if you wanted. Gives perfectly reasonable CP and W’ numbers you can structure your intervals with.
I don’t want to get into conspiracy theory territory, but I feel like companies like zwift and trainerroad are incentivized to make tests and workouts look as complicated as possible to convince users that they need the computer-automated guidance to achieve their fitness goals.
Power duration curve: hold my beer...
There’s no one size fits all to determine FTP. I know guys who don’t know their FTP but know exactly what they can do for 1,3 & 5 minutes they race crits & Road so FTP is useless to them. But someone like me (a Tester) needs to know FTP but a 4DP or a Ramp is not a good way to determine FTP - but for a Roadie doing one TT a year it could be. All depends on what your goals are.
Your FTP stayed the same as what you already thought it was "based on current fitness levels". what does that mean? seems you already had a reliable FTP number so you haven't convinced me that this is more reliable.
I have to say I'm impressed with your result though! Can't imagine what it would be like to be that powerful!! lol
I often test FTP so I have an idea based on experiences. I hadn't tested it for a couple of months but had a rough understanding based on experience. Cam
a comfortable indoor ramp test. ha
Perhaps I should have chosen my words more wisely 🤔
Yeah ramp test was totally inaccurate. I used to Oly lift and Squat quite a bit and the MAP favoring (as described by Cam in this video) increased the FTP eastimate waaaay to much, over 25 watts. Couldn't complete trainerroad over/under intervals after using that inaccurate number for 3 days until I reduced it significantly. 20 minute test and 4DP test were accurate and considerably more conservative in their estimate.
That first question is my question. Why test the FTP at all? It's not why I ride a bike. It is definitely something I don't care about. I love riding my bike. I live for it. But I don't want to turn it into another thing that causes stress in my life. And by that I mean focusing on training, performance, nutrition, and zones. I really don't understand where you guys come from when you turn cycling into a competition based lifestyle that requires testing, planning, and so much structure you can't enjoy the activity.
If you're serious about racing or events then it makes sense to know, but if you just like riding around then who cares! I agree
fuck that 20min. ramp test all the way.
Some hard core cyclist down play Zwift. Zwift was started to relieve the boredom of indoor cycling. Then a game (rewards) and then social aspect. The training sessions are good for 99% of the cyclist. Comparing other platforms to Zwift is moot in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing Dan, I can appreciate where your coming from. However stay tuned for the full SUF review, there might be some aspects to it that change your perspective. Cam
@@CamNicholls I'm a SUF client and one thing that I wish they had were personalized plans. For now, they have fixed training plans, such as a 10 week training plan. But what if you only have 8 weeks? From what I understand, you need to "hack" the plan specifying your end date but then you have a 10 week plan in an 8 week period. For the price that we pay, if would be really nice to have personalized plan which takes into consideration the number of weeks you have. With all the data they have on us, I'm sure it's not too difficult.
David Rainville thanks for sharing your thoughts/experiences David 👍
Why bother. Just get Xert, and have a far better fitness signature, and never fail a workout again.
when i hear FTP i become nervous hehe
Haha, I get that!